S01.E12: Lallybroch

[Tara Ariano]

Claire and Jamie are reunited and head to his family home, where old animosities between Jamie and his sister, Jenny, are rekindled.

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[WatchrTina]

Just watched it on demand.  Loved it.  Not gonna talk about it until after the official air time.  Just gonna say, have a glass of whisky or wine handy when you watch because there's a whole lotta drinking going on.

[ihartcoffee]

Thanks for the heads up! I'm watching now, had no idea I could.

[bluebonnet]

Really enjoyed it. I thought Jenny's and Jamie's relationship was nicely done, if a little less explosive than I imagined from the books.  Ian was almost spot on and I enjoyed his and Claire's conversation.  I liked that Jamie was really terrible at being a Laird.  

 

The only wet blanket over the whole thing comes from what happened last week.  I wish Jamie had seem proof of Claire's rock-hopping because it's just not good seeing him so readily believing things like airplanes without having good reason to know that it could be true.  It really bothers me and everything going forward from this will be negatively shadowed from the problems with the rocks scene.  Then there is Murtagh.  Where is my Murtagh?  How did Jamie find out about the witch trial?  How did the chest make it to Lallybroch so quickly?  Presumably it was Murtagh, but where the hell is he?  

[Dust Bunny]

That was wonderful. Probably my favorite episode so far, actually. They included the "I wanted you when... I loved you when..." I actually squeed out loud when Jamie started talking about that.

 

Loved all the scenes between Jenny & Jamie and Claire & Ian. The dynamics were so well done.

 

The mill scene - perfect.

 

The scene between Randall and Jamie definitely sets up the darkness that is the last 2 episodes. That will be some tough watching.

 

In general, the direction was stellar throughout the hour as well.

 

I couldn't be happier with this episode. Well done, everyone!

[Tara Ariano]

Matt's post on the episode:

 

Assault With Intent? Outlander comes up with more rape content. Is it all too much, or does it serve a purpose?

[tcay]

I really liked this episode too. They took their time establishing these relationships; I didn't feel like I was being sped along to get to the next crisis. 

 

Thought it was interesting that they decided sidestep the whole issue of Murtagh going to Leoch and thus hearing gossip about Laoghaire, by having the chest shipped. Seems like they're really not going to have Jamie know anything.

 

I already read a review that dinged the episode a little for "needless misunderstandings"-- all I could think was oh lord help you in season three and four. 

[theschnauzers]

This episode was a good one, and compressed the essentials from book one on Jamie's return to Lallybroch. Even the flashbacks were on point from the source. So I was pleased with the story telling, and how both Jenny and Ian were cast.

 

In the Inside the Episode on Starz Play, RDM mentioned that while the stand-in for Lallybroch was in good condition on the outside; the interior wasn't at all useable, so all of that was on sound stages. (Just as well given that Lallybroch will be seen for books to come.)

 

And a happy birthday to both Sam and Jamie. (Sam will be 35 on Thursday, and Jamie will be 294 on Friday. (How ironic that the birthdays are next to each other on the calendar!

Edited April 27, 2015 by theschnauzers

[dustoffmom]

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and how the 4 of them all interacted, just perfect in my eyes.  But allow me to add one sort of negative opinion if I may.  In more than a dozen readings of the first books, never, ever did my minds eye see Lallybroch as quite so la-ti-da a place.  Not a shack/hovel of course, but nowhere near the 'manor' type house it was presented here.  The bedroom and especially the dining room, my, those are gorgeous indeed.  But a far way from what I had pictured.  Anyone else find it a bit jarring?

[kh27]

Great episode. The casting of Jenny and Ian was brilliant! Particularly Ian. He is one of my favorite book characters, and I felt the actor really conveyed his warmth and genuine kindness. One quibble I have - and it has to do with the series as a whole, although it was in particular evidence this week - is Sam Heughan's facial expression when someone is telling him something difficult to hear. Does anyone remember Joey Tribbiani's "smell the fart" acting from Friends? Sometimes he looks just like that, and it totally takes me out of the moment. It may be silly, but it is really bothering me! I need to get over it!

[WatchrTina]

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that.  Not perfect but mostly excellent.  I think my favorite bits were:

1. Drunk Jamie saying "The Laird of Broch Turauch.  <butt slap> That's me!" 
2. Claire's eye-roll when he asks if she's really seen an elephant.
3. The serendipitous gust of wind that blew Jamie's shirt up so that we saw his bare arse.  
4. Jamie posed like a status of a modest Andonis in the brook.  (But I'll bet Sam was COLD!!!)
5. The whole final scene in the fire-lit Laird's bedroom.  My gosh that room was beautiful and Claire and Jamie looked particularly gorgeous.  And Jamie confessed that he married for love and Claire said "I love you" too for the first time!  

So naturally after that wonderful scene we fade to Claire awakening in an empty bed, looking contented, and I just KNEW all hell was about to break loose. #DamnedCliffhangers

 

I also particularly liked the scene between Jamie and Claire when he gave her some instruction on how to be the Lady of the Manor.  I liked it because at first it looked like they were both going to slip back into old patterns but then Jamie offered the example of Letitia (which was smart) and he also reminded her that this was his family, his land and (whispered) his time.  That was REALLY smart because it was true AND it reminded Claire that he had trusted her about something really big and now it was her turn to trust him about how they must behave as Lord and Lady of the manor.  This episode shows Jamie stumbling quite a bit as he tries to step into the role of Laird but that tete-a-tete with Claire showed him in a flattering light.

Edited April 26, 2015 by WatchrTina

[justmehere]

Then there is Murtagh.  Where is my Murtagh?  How did Jamie find out about the witch trial?  How did the chest make it to Lallybroch so quickly?  Presumably it was Murtagh, but where the hell is he?

 

 

Yeah, I wish they'd said how Jamie knew about the trial. Did Murtagh go with Jamie and Dougal? If not, he could have ridden out to catch Jamie, then gone back to Leoch to ship the chest, at Jamie's request, while Jamie headed for the trial. Shouldn't have to speculate like that though.

 

I mostly loved the episode. Difficult seeing the flogging again, especially through Jamie's father's eyes. --Loved Jenny laughing at Black Jack. It was brave of her, and he deserved it. I'm assuming that was a prosthetic that Tobias/Jack was, er, trying to manipulate. He's so awful, but they did do a good job setting up later episodes. I'm already cringing.

 

I liked Ian. Just an affable guy who loves Jenny and knows how best to deal with her.

 

I thought Sam was sensational throughout. Loved his wrong-headed cockiness as laird and especially the drunk scene in the bedroom: "Laird of Broch Tuaroch. That's me." Hah! Loved the scene with Jenny after she saw his scars. Also like that she's so tiny that it does show off Jamie/Sam's height. Loved the "round arse" comment.

Edited April 26, 2015 by justmehere

[CatMack]

Well, that was not the penis I was expecting to see on this show.  

 

I loved this episode a lot, so I'll get my very few complaints out of the way now - I thought the time between Jack and Jenny going up to the bedroom and when she starts laughing at him stretched on just a little to long.  It was creepy enough without watching him fondle her for 8 years.  Also, it's been awhile since I read the first book, but was she so antagonistic to Claire at the start?  I know she fought with Jamie a lot, but I can't remember her and Claire clashing as much in the book.  I'm just worried because I love their friendship in the books and I worry now that shit is hitting the fan again that we won't get as much time to set them up as friends before they part again.  I know they'll bond going after Jamie, but still.  I want my gal pals.  

 

But other than that, very few problems with the episode itself.  There are still some problems over all with how they're laying things out for those who haven't read the books, IMO.  Things like how Jamie knew to come back, Claire's reasoning for staying, stuff like that which is laid out clearly in the books and glossed over by the show.  It's a problem.  But I am a book reader, and I've seen adaptations that are much, much worse than this, so while it's still a problem it's not one that affects my enjoyment level very much.  Not yet, anyway.  

 

This was the first episode with zero voiceovers, wasn't it?  They've been used a lot more sparingly the last couple eps, but there were a few.  I don't recall a single one this time.  

 

Loved Jamie coming in drunk and Claire's annoyance but also fond smile.  I have three cats in my house, watching Jamie rub his face on her and roll around was...very familiar.  Jamie is apparently a cat when drunk.  Could have done without the "don't talk back in front of other people" discussion, but I'll take it as a trade off for getting to see Claire tell Jamie to shut up, stop interrupting her, and stop being an ass to everyone.  

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and how the 4 of them all interacted, just perfect in my eyes.  But allow me to add one sort of negative opinion if I may.  In more than a dozen readings of the first books, never, ever did my minds eye see Lallybroch as quite so la-ti-da a place.  Not a shack/hovel of course, but nowhere near the 'manor' type house it was presented here.  The bedroom and especially the dining room, my, those are gorgeous indeed.  But a far way from what I had pictured.  Anyone else find it a bit jarring?

 

I never had a super clear picture in my head, but I don't think it was too grand at all.  It's the laird's house, the seat of power for an entire estate.  It had gravitas, without being overly opulent.  

[kh27]

I know they can't include everything from the books or we'd still be watching this series in 50 years (which would be OK with me!), but I did miss two parts in particular. First, I missed seeing Jamie and Jenny go at each other in the other room, while Claire meets Ian and Ian is completely nonchalant about their fighting and gives her advice about staying out of their way. I know they talked later in the episode, but I really liked that scene in the book. I also missed Jamie telling Claire about how he was completely over-the-top insulting to Jack Randall when he proposed dropping the second flogging in exchange for giving his body to Randall. He told her how he was extremely nasty to Randall so that he wouldn't be able to change his mind - a scene I found really endearing in the book and missed in this episode. Like I said, I know they can't all be there - but I really missed those two scenes in particular.

 

Edited to add - I keep thinking of more I missed from the book. Particularly Grannie MacNab's role in the incident at the water wheel, and how she convinces Jamie to take Rabbie into the big house by wearing him down while he is naked and freezing in the water. Loved that!

Edited April 26, 2015 by kh27

[chocolatetruffle]

The Lallybrook section of the book is my absolute favorite so I was trying to keep my expectations low, assuming that they could not capture the sense of place or the complexity of the relationships.  Well boy was I wrong - this episode was perfection!!  They had me at the title card: dogs by a roaring fire is my ultimate dream of 'home.'  Lallybrook was exactly as I pictured it in my mind: warm and homey.  Jenny & Ian were perfectly cast, especially Ian.  The actor perfectly captured his warmth and calm and stalwartness (I hope that's a word).  

 

So I guess we have to rely on writer Anne Kenney for character development and depth.  We probably learned more about Jaime and Claire as individuals and as a couple than we have thus far in the season.  Each scene was written like it was it's own little play within the overall story - with a beginning, middle and end, revealing new info about each character.  Some of my favorites included Jaime & Jenny at the gravesite, Claire & Ian, Drunk Jaime & Claire and of course Claire & Jaime's I Love You, which was a-freaking-mazing.  It truly surpassed my expectations.  The acting by everyone throughout was stellar.

 

Which brings me to the flashbacks, which were disturbing and uncomfortable to watch.  BJ's manipulation and putting his finger in Jenny's mouth made my skin crawl.  How Tobias Menzies can ooze evil while mundanely sitting at a desk doing paperwork is unfathomable to me.  Although it was nice to see Brian if only briefly.

 

A final shout out to the director, cinematographer and lighting director.  Awesome work, guys.  The lighting inside Lallybrook was beautiful.  I really noticed it in the bedroom scenes where Cait/Claire looked luminous and her hair was especially gorgeous this episode.

 

Yeah, there should have been some resolution from the last episode, but honestly about two minutes into this episode I forgot all about it.  Also, my one nitpick is that I didn't need the last 5 seconds.  It's such a cliche that of course as soon as characters achieve a moment of true happiness, bam, disaster strikes.

Edited April 26, 2015 by chocolatetruffle

[bluebonnet]

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and how the 4 of them all interacted, just perfect in my eyes.  But allow me to add one sort of negative opinion if I may.  In more than a dozen readings of the first books, never, ever did my minds eye see Lallybroch as quite so la-ti-da a place.  Not a shack/hovel of course, but nowhere near the 'manor' type house it was presented here.  The bedroom and especially the dining room, my, those are gorgeous indeed.  But a far way from what I had pictured.  Anyone else find it a bit jarring?

Lallybroch was massively larger than I ever imagined it to be. It's so hard to see Roger Mac and Brianna living in and renovating such a huge house in the future.  

 

ETA: Oh!  Another thing.  Did those asshole English soldiers steal Jamie's shirt!?  Did anyone else notice that and metaphorically shake their fist at them?

Edited April 26, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Squirrely]

I'm feeling so much better about the series after this episode! There were some slight deviations, but I feel like they worked this time. For instance, it was nice to see Jamie bumble around at being the laird. And it was very "Claire" of her to toss him out of bed and put him in his place!

I think Jenny will come around now that she and Jamie are on better footing. In the book she was a little concerned about being displaced as the lady of the manor and relaxed when she realized Claire was not going to usurp her.

I also had a very different image of Lallybroch in my head, but since I really have no other basis for comparison than my clueless vision of what it would have looked like (being an American born in 1980 who's never set foot in Scotland), I'm actually happy to have visuals for it and Castle Leoch for my next reading. Was anyone else trying to picture it when Bree and Roger and the kids are there?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Squirrely

[WatchrTina]

So I just ran into the other room to see the mill pond scene again because, reasons, and I noticed that Jamie's still-healing wound from the brawl after the Duke's duel is clearly visible.  Good job make-up continuity team.  Didn't notice if the gunshot wound in the trapezious is still visible.

 

Oh also have to add two more moments I loved:

1. When Claire dumps Jamie out of bed for a talk and
2. When she says "I am speaking!" when he tries to interrupt.

I feel like behavior like that would back-fire if attempted in real-life but I found it rather satisfying to watch.

 

ETA:  Add me to the list of people that did not envision Lallybroch looking that way.  I pictured something wide and low to the ground (I seem to recall that Jamie has to stoop to enter the front door) so I was expecting something that was two-story at most (there was definitely an upstairs) and that made of plaster and timber -- I think I was picturing Tudor construction -- rather than stone.  My mental picture is probably all wrong as Lallybroch is actually a "modern" home in 1743.  In the episode Jamie says it was built by his father.  The building they are using for the exteriors, however, is MUCH older.

Edited April 26, 2015 by WatchrTina

[CatMack]

I'm not dragging up all of the old books, but I had An Echo in the Bone on hand, and Roger describes Lallybroch as "large and gracious, comfortably rather than grandly built", and "unusually provided with windows" (the kids never come up with the same number twice when they try to count them).  So it's supposed to be big.  I guess you could quibble about whether the interiors we saw were "comfortably rather than grandly built", but it worked for me.  And honestly, it didn't seem that big to me.  I have it paused at 55:23 and there's an exterior shot that includes some of the smaller outbuildings, it helps give a bit more scale.  It's 3 or 4 stories but it's basically just a rectangle, not some sprawling mansion with wings and such.  It's big, but it's not a castle.  It seems fitting to me, for the stature that Jamie's family is supposed to have as heads of the Fraser lands.  

[peacefrog]

*small voice* I was bored and thought it went on and on.

 

I don't understand it, I agree with a lot of what others above have said. When I break it down into parts, scenes, acting, casting, use of lines from the books it's all good. I don't think there were any missteps, yet this whole episode just did not do it for me. 

 

I also thought Lallybroch looked a lot bigger than in my head.

[SpiritSong]

*small voice* I was bored and thought it went on and on.

 

I don't understand it, I agree with a lot of what others above have said. When I break it down into parts, scenes, acting, casting, use of lines from the books it's all good. I don't think there were any missteps, yet this whole episode just did not do it for .

Thank you! This is my least favorite episode so far. Some of it is probably hangover from my extreme disappointment of the last episode, where I think they totally botched Claire's decision at the stones. I was hoping they would at least address her choice in this episode, but no. They totally ignored it instead. I can only imagine the non book readers wondering why in the world she stayed.

And I'm sick of Black Jack Randall and his sadism. Enough already. I'm tired of the rapes and attempted rapes and the flogging scenes. Diana Gabaldon is starting to remind me of Mel Gibson and his love of torture porn. I don't find that entertaining at all.

On the plus side, Ian was wonderfully cast. I don't remember Jenny being such a bitch in the books, but I'm hoping I'll come around to her character because I really liked her when I read the books. I agree with an earlier poster who missed Granny McNabb and the way she held Jamie hostage in the cold water of the pond. That would have been a great scene.

[chocolatetruffle]

I just had to comment that someone on another board noted that Claire finally got her blue vase on Quarter Day.  Nice!

[justmehere]

Forgot to mention: Claire got her vase!

 

Or what Chocolatetruffle said.

Edited April 26, 2015 by justmehere

[Kiwi]

I enjoyed that episode a lot. This was not a section of the book I loved, mainly because I have never been a fan of Jenny and I did not like her much this episode. But overall I liked the episode.

 

Ian was great - his conversation with Claire was nice.

 

Loved drunk Jamie! Claire's "annoyance" at him then her little smile of happiness were perfect. I also always enjoyed in the book where Claire was telling Jamie of the future, so appreciated the scene about the aeroplanes and elephants. As someone up thread mentioned it would have had more impact had the stones scene been handled better and Jamie seen Claire about to pass through, but I think I am just going to have to let go of that so I can enjoyed the show as it is.

 

Randall is all kinds of sadistic man, and Menzies plays him well, when he put his finger in Jenny's mouth he was very creepy. Having said that I agree with SpiritSong, I don't find, rape, torture and sadism entertaining either so I am more looking forward to season two when our main characters are not tormented that way so much. I doubt I will be able to watch any of Randall abusing Jamie, its not something I have any desire to see, it was bad enough reading it once.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Kiwi

[nodorothyparker]

I didn't hate it but a lot of it does feel like checking off boxes at this point as it builds up steam for the end and everything we know is coming before we get there.  The actress who plays Jenny is absolutely spot on for what can sometimes be a difficult character.  She absolutely nailed Jenny's constant mix of love for and frustration with Jamie.  As always, everything was really pretty to look at.

 

I get thematically why the show delayed Jamie's flashback story of what led up to his father's death until now, but in an episode that already featured heavily squicky forced fingers in the mouth and everybody's least favorite would-be rapist spanking it to try to get things moving, it was just too much.  I'm already seeing complaints all over the place from nonbook readers about all the rapeyness and I can't really argue with that.  And we haven't even gotten to Wentworth yet.  Yes, I know it's all in the book.  But reading it on the page is very different than seemingly every other scene of watching Tobias Menzies creep on and victimize every character we're supposed to care about.  He's a great actor and he's doing great work, but it's all too much and the show has only made it worse by beefing up his role the way it has.

Edited April 26, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[miss carousel]

A little bit of Jenny goes a long way with me but I liked the actress. I like book Ian and I liked show Ian. I liked other things here and there. But I can't say I liked the episode very much. It's just to much with the violence and the rapiness. I wish they had not shown both flashbacks in one episode. I actually would have been very content if Jenny had just told what happened to her (briefly) with no flashback at all. It's difficult reading or skimming some of this stuff but watching it is a bit overwhelming. The people I know who are watching this ( all non book readers) are getting bummed out by the rape, near rape and the flogging and the violence. I've always thought Blackjack was a ridiculous character and an offensive one. Still not really feeling the this is a love so great I gave up no witch trials and indoor plumbing for it thing. I do like the actors who play Clare and Jamie and its their likability mostly along with beautiful Scotland that keeps me from throwing up my hands.

[Dust Bunny]

So I had noticed something on first watch, but I didn't want to comment until I double-checked by rewatching the end of "Devil's Mark" on my DVR. In "Lallybroch"'s previously's, the last shot is of Jamie and Claire kissing after she chose him (after being at the stones). In that shot, Jamie is on the left side of the screen, and he pulls her in close and wears a huge smile. That particular shot was not in "Devil's Mark". It's very short, but I actually really like that shot.

 

Make of that what you will. I hope it means we're in for some deleted scene delights of "Devil's Mark" when the Blu-ray comes out.

[Petunia846]

I read the nonbook thread first and the response looks dismal...rapey and boring. Then I come here and most people seem to have loved it. I think they've led the nonbook readers to believe the story that this show is going to be is something it's not going to be in the future, and I hope that doesn't come back to bite us all.

 

I enjoyed it fine. I was distracted by looking at Lallybroch itself most of the time and trying to fit the set they created into the image I had in my mind from reading the eight books. I wasn't expecting so much wall paper. The walls in the dining room and the bedroom made me think of Colum's study at Leoch, and that made me wonder why Lallybroch was fancier than Leoch. It might be smaller than Leoch, but I think it was definitely decorated fancier. Those fireplaces! Wow. Too bad the interiors are on a sound stage, they could make a killing as a bed and breakfast when they're not filming. And yes, I kept trying to imagine Roger and Bree and the kids there!

 

I liked how the mill scene was adapted, using Jenny there instead of Grannie McNabb streamlined the story very well. I'm actually surprised they kept the stuff about Rabbie in there, but I'm assuming they're going to go the way the book does and make that the reason Jamie gets discovered. And yes, those redcoats DID steal Jamie's shirt! Ha! Their last lines were hilarious...something like, "How did a shirt get stuck in there?" and the other guy just says, "It's Scotland." Burn.

 

Ian does not look at all like I imagined him to (though to be fair, that's because my image of him was very hazy to begin with), but I think he's perfect.

 

In other news, last week we got the sexiest finger action I've ever seen, and this week we got the creepiest. I'm not usually a person who has physical reactions to what I watch or read...I don't cry, I don't actually laugh out loud, I don't flinch...but dear God, that was disturbing. I did have to look away. I hate Black Jack so much (the character himself as much as how much time he's on my screen), that I'm starting to dislike Tobias. It's not fair, but I'm so tired of it. I don't think it would be as bad if we hadn't had The Garrison Commander. I still really dislike that episode. I feel like Ron sees the Black Jack stuff as edgy and the parts where Tobias plays both Jack and Frank as a way for the show to stand out, and so therefore he's pushed even more Jack and Frank into the story instead of letting the weight of the narrative rest on Claire and Jamie as it does in the book. It's like he doesn't trust the "romancey" part of the book to hold viewer's attention. I don't know. I just know I could have done without all that.

 

Thinking a bit more about it...

 

So no painting of Ellen, unless I'm mistaken. Is that why they didn't care about the pearls? That's just not going to be a thing? That's a shame. It would have been nice to see what she looked like, since we did get to see Brian in this episode.

 

Also, doesn't Claire conceive Faith at Lallybroch? Was there even time for that in this episode? It seemed like they were only there like two days. Maybe it was that last night after they said I love you to each other.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Petunia846

[Squirrely]

So I just ran into the other room to see the mill pond scene again because, reasons, and I noticed that Jamie's still-healing wound from the brawl after the Duke's duel is clearly visible. Good job make-up continuity team. Didn't notice if the gunshot wound in the trapezious is still visible.

Oh also have to add two more moments I loved:

• When Claire dumps Jamie out of bed for a talk and
• When she says "I am speaking!" when he tries to interrupt.

I feel like behavior like that would back-fire if attempted in real-life but I found it rather satisfying to watch.

ETA: Add me to the list of people that did not envision Lallybroch looking that way. I pictured something wide and low to the ground (I seem to recall that Jamie has to stoop to enter the front door) so I was expecting something that was two-story at most (there was definitely an upstairs) and that made of plaster and timber -- I think I was picturing Tudor construction -- rather than stone. My mental picture is probably all wrong as Lallybroch is actually a "modern" home in 1743. In the episode Jamie says it was built by his father. The building they are using for the exteriors, however, is MUCH older.

IIRC, Lallybroch is the one place Jamie doesn't have to duck when entering because it was built by his father, who's supposed to be as tall. I think Bree remarks on the doorways being taller than average as well.

Also, doesn't Claire conceive Faith at Lallybroch? Was there even time for that in this episode? It seemed like they were only there like two days. Maybe it was that last night after they said I love you to each other.

Those weren't the red coats taking Jamie yet. Wasn't it the child beading McNab, with what I assume to be some Scottish cohorts? They shouldn't be leaving Lallybroch quite yet. I hope not anyway.

[AheadofStraight]

 

 

Lallybroch was massively larger than I ever imagined it to be. It's so hard to see Roger Mac and Brianna living in and renovating such a huge house in the future. 

ETA: Oh!  Another thing.  Did those asshole English soldiers steal Jamie's shirt!?  Did anyone else notice that and metaphorically shake their fist at them?

 

I just re-read this section in the book. "It was larger than I expected;a handsome three-story manor of harled white stone, windows outlined in natural grey stone, a high slate roof with multiple chimneys, and several smaller whitewashed buildings clustered about it, like chicks about a hen."

 

In the book, Jamie was wearing his father's flannel drawers and it came around the mill wheel and the soldiers kept it as well. (Terry tweeted that she fought not to have him wearing that because they didn't have drawers in that time.)

 

 

Also, doesn't Claire conceive Faith at Lallybroch? Was there even time for that in this episode? It seemed like they were only there like two days. Maybe it was that last night after they said I love you to each other.

 

Diana has said she conceived at the Abbey (which always seemed a little off in my mind).

Edited April 26, 2015 by AheadofStraight

[chocolatetruffle]

I read the nonbook thread first and the response looks dismal...rapey and boring. Then I come here and most people seem to have loved it. I think they've led the nonbook readers to believe the story that this show is going to be is something it's not going to be in the future, and I hope that doesn't come back to bite us all.

I completely agree with this.  However, I also had that feeling about the book as well - especially once we got to Wentworth.  I keep hoping that the show will tone that down, otherwise it's going to leave a nasty taste in the mouth of the nonbook readers.  I know that if I had read the book when it first came out I would not have continued with the series.

 

 

So no painting of Ellen, unless I'm mistaken. Is that why they didn't care about the pearls? That's just not going to be a thing? That's a shame. It would have been nice to see what she looked like, since we did get to see Brian in this episode.

 

Also, doesn't Claire conceive Faith at Lallybroch? Was there even time for that in this episode? It seemed like they were only there like two days. Maybe it was that last night after they said I love you to each other.

 

I missed the painting of Ellen, too.  

 

As Aheadof Straight said, DG says the baby was conceived at the abbey.  She also said that in the book J&C were at the abbey a lot longer than they will be in the show.  (Actually J&C have spent a lot less time at every location in the show than in the book.) Personally, I read the scene after the "I love you" as being the morning after conception.  Claire had that "pregnancy glow" so I figured she had the spark of a wee life inside her.  Of course, I'm an unabashed hopeful romantic and I can interpret things any way I want to, despite what the author says.  :-)

[Petunia846]

Huh, really? At the abbey? I never pictured them as having been there that long between when Jamie would have been healthy enough for that and when they went into the underground spring. Actually, honestly, I thought that the underground hot spring sex actually was the first time they'd done it since Jamie had been taken from Lallybroach. That's odd. I'll have to go back and reread that section a bit.

[tcay]

There are at least three sex scenes at the abbey in the book. The weird opium thing that I was never really sure was sex or not, then the time Jamie limps over to Claire's cot and they both express reservations about it, and then the spring. So if Faith was conceived at the abbey, I sure hope it was the cot scene and not the deranged opium episode. 

[Petunia846]

I didn't think they had sex during the deranged opium bit. I thought he just collapsed on top of her and she cuddled him like he was a little boy, saying that thing his mom always said. Oh well!

 

I also forgot to say, drunk Jamie is my new favorite thing in the world. I hope we get more of him next season when he's always going out "clubbing" with the Bonny Prince and running Jared's company. Hee!

[WatchrTina]

 

I didn't think they had sex during the deranged opium bit. I thought he just collapsed on top of her and she cuddled him like he was a little boy, saying that thing his mom always said.

Nope, there was definitely fucking in that scene and given the timing, I'm pretty sure that's when Faith is conceived.  I wondered, in the speculation thread a few weeks ago, about how that was going to handled, since I thought the book was ambiguous as to when Jamie came back to his senses.  I wondered if he had thought he was raping Black Jack in his opium-and-fever-induced haze or if he realized it was Claire.  About a week later Diana posted an extract from Book 9 on Facebook that answers the question.  It's not a spoiler to say they definitely had sex in that scene but I'll slip behind the spoiler bar for the rest. 

Diana confirmed in that post that Jamie definitely thought he was "swiving" Black Jack. I took that to mean that he was taking Highlander-style eye-for-an-eye vengeance and that having done so (in his mind anyway) was a key to his recovery. The quote is there in the Book 9 thread if you care to look for hit.

 

I've been scanning the non-book-reader thread and I'm glad to see that some people are posting their thoughts on why it made sense for Claire to stay.  I'm sure lots of people said "Wait?  What?" at that decisions but hey, willful suspension of disbelief is part of the magic of books and TV so I'm not surprised at all that other people are finding ways to get on board with TVClaire's decision.

 

Regarding the missing red flannel britches --I think Terry is wrong when she says she had to fight against them because they didn't exist in that time.  I don't think the "britches" that were referred to in the book referred to underwear.  I think that is the garment that Jamie's father wore when he needed to go in water and did not wish to appear naked before his tenants.  Jamie just followed suit, but they were to big for him and so, oops!  All that being said, I don't mind the change at all because Jamie's swim at the mill was MUCH more pre-meditated in the book. He knew he was going to have to get in the water (Ian couldn't do it ye ken because his missing leg made him swim in circles).  In the show Jamie goes to the mill spontaneously,  hung-over and in a fit of pique, so it makes sense that he would not have brought them with him.  I'm also very grateful for the decision because it gave us that serendipitous gust of wind that blew the shirt-tail away from Jamie's bare arse and, well, that was just nice.

Edited April 28, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Future Cat Lady]

So no painting of Ellen, unless I'm mistaken. Is that why they didn't care about the pearls? That's just not going to be a thing? That's a shame. It would have been nice to see what she looked like, since we did get to see Brian in this episode.

 

 

I think we didn't see the painting because Ellen and Bree are supposed to look alot alike. Bree had not been cast at that point. Maybe we will see that painting in later seasons. 

[Jodithgrace]

Personally, I think that the theme of these books (and show) could well be "no-good deed goes unpunished." Every time that Jamie and Claire show mercy and compassion to somebody, it ends up biting them in the butt. (literally, in the case of Jack Randall) Jamie refusing to shoot an unarmed, unconscious Jack Randall, Claire refusing to condemn Geillis and even Jamie taking the punishment for Loaghaire end up costing them later on. Not to mention

the infamous Stephan Bonnet

 Yet, would we have it otherwise? Thanks to Claire's more modern sensibilities, Jamie and Claire show more compassion than I think would have been customary in those times. We. watching it from the future, would be disappointed if Jamie and Claire weren't a bit progressive in their attitudes. 

The Black Jack episode (hopefully it's only one) will be hard to watch, but it does inform the rest of Jamie's life, so it would be hard to cut. But I am thankful for an episode like this that was more character driven and gave Jamie and Claire a bit of a break from persecution, before what we know is to come. 

[Keeta]

I was really looking forward to this episode, but at first it felt like a little bit of a let-down. I’ve since watched it a second time, and I was able to enjoy it more (sensing a theme there…). For all its imperfections, episode 11 was high stakes in two major, narrative-changing ways, and we also got some great Jamie and Claire bonding time. J&C bonding (and Romantic!Jamie) is one of my favorite things, so when an episode is heavy on Stubborn!Jamie like this one, it’s probably not going to be my favorite. But on second viewing I was able to appreciate the character growth that took place.

 

Some other notes:

• There’s a lot of concern in the non-book thread about all the rape/rape attempts, etc., which I totally get. It’s a problem I have with the books too. One saving grace in the books is that they’re so frickin’ long, it allows for a lot of other things to happen as well. Which leads me to…

 

• I really wish the show could figure out a way to better show the passage of time. I understand this story is very plot-driven, but that’s what montages are for!

 

• I find myself kind of missing the voiceovers a little bit. I think the first episodes went overboard on that, but at this point in the story we could stand to know a bit more what Claire’s thinking.

 

• Based on next week’s preview and the fact that Jenny still has to go into labor, I think we can safely say that Jamie still has a bit of time at Lallybroch yet before being captured. Seems to be they’re going to depart from the books somewhat.

 

Some highlights for me:

 

• That first scene was absolutely gorgeous.
• Drunk!Jamie had some fantastic lines.
• Ian and Claire’s tete-a-tete. So good! Loved that summation of the Fraser personality (very helpful character insight for this episode as well).
• I loved the final scene in the bedroom. After finishing the episode, I went back and rewatched the end of the pilot. Having just seen Show!Jamie confirm the extent and beginnings of his feelings for Claire imbued those early scenes with more meaning. Even though I already knew all of this from the books! Didn’t expect that.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Keeta

[WatchrTina]

The reviewer at HitFlix made a very good point that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

 

 

 

Jamie tosses his sister a bag of money, sheepishly admitting he went and got the rents. Kind of wishing they’d showed that. He must’ve turned the Fraser charm to MAXIMUM WATTAGE to get that money without losing the love of the tenants.

I had the same thought, wondering what he said to his tenants.  He must have had to really eat crow, saying "Hey I'm new at this and I didna realize that without the rents the estate will fall apart, which is a problem for all of us."  I'm fine that we didn't see it because we're having to move through the books at light speed already but, boy those conversations must have been awkward.  I wonder if Ian went with him?

[Glaze Crazy]

I'd like to see the discussions that go on in the writer's room between the book readers and the non-book readers over what goes into each script.  I like how book dialogue shows up but sometimes is said at different points and/or to different people.  It continues to move the story forward and it's interesting how they mix it up and still keep it familiar to book readers.  Another thing I liked was switching Jenny out for Grannie MacNab at the mill.  Did the job for the redcoat close encounter and allowed Jenny to really see Jamie's scars without having two separate scenes.

 

I am also surprised at the interiors of Lallybroch.  I always pictured it more cozy, not so much large grand rooms.  I was OK with the exterior they used from way back in episode 2, but just didn't expect the detailed wall coverings and diamond paned windows like we see on the sets.  In fact, does the building even have that window that Jamie is standing in front of in the bedchamber?  Hmmm....

 

The painting of Ellen is at Leoch right now.  Jenny tells Brianna (in Drums) that Ned brings it to her after Leoch is destroyed by the Redcoats after The Rising.  I was hoping for the picture of Jamie and WIllie as little boys though.

 

I didn't like this interpretation of Jenny (the actress is great though), I thought she was portrayed too harsh, especially verbally towards Claire.  It just didn't strike me in the book that Jenny had any animosity towards Claire, just anger at Jamie.  I hope it softens up next week between them so they can establish their friendship.  I did like the scenes that built up the friendship between Ian and Claire.  It makes sense for them since they married into the Fraser family. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Glaze Crazy

[Petunia846]

I assumed that Jamie had given Jenny some of his own money, some salary from Colum or something, to make up for the missing rent, but you're right. It does seem odd that he would have that much money.

[theschnauzers]

I assumed that Jamie had given Jenny some of his own money, some salary from Colum or something, to make up for the missing rent, but you're right. It does seem odd that he would have that much money.

We also don't know what Mrs. Fitz put in that chest she sent to Lallybroch, which would have been after the trial and while Jamie and Claire were in route (with that detour to the stones, no less.) I believe there's a mention somewhere in book one about Mrs. Fitz' money management skills. And I am sure that, although it was never mentioned directly, Langhaire's involvement with the witch trial especially with Claire must have disappointed mrs. Fitz, and that would have been reason enough for Mrs. Fitz to send something 'extra."

[WatchrTina]

 

Another thing I liked was switching Jenny out for Grannie MacNab at the mill.  Did the job for the redcoat close encounter and allowed Jenny to really see Jamie's scars without having two separate scenes.

I liked it too.  The only thing that rang false was Jamie's line demanding to know what Jenny was doing there (after he got out of the water).  It didn't make sense the first time I heard it.  Now I've figured out that it must have been concern on his part that his heavily pregnant sister was traipsing about the countryside on foot but that's not how it came out.  It came out like "How dare she follow me here!" which made no sense.

[ulkis]

And a happy birthday to both Sam and Jamie. (Sam will be 35 on Thursday, and Jamie will be 294 on Friday. (How ironic that the birthdays are next to each other on the calendar!

I dunno if it's the hair or what but he looks young for his age. I had him pegged for about 28.

I have a feeling that the Wentworth scenes won't be as graphic (or at least they won't show it) as the book, but it will still probably be too much for a lot of non book readers. I just hope they leave out the dialogue from Jamie's nightmare about Randall from book 2, cause that was gross.

I liked it too.  The only thing that rang false was Jamie's line demanding to know what Jenny was doing there (after he got out of the water).  It didn't make sense the first time I heard it.  Now I've figured out that it must have been concern on his part that his heavily pregnant sister was traipsing about the countryside on foot but that's not how it came out.  It came out like "How dare she follow me here!" which made no sense.

I think he was just saying it in a "what are you doing here sis, I'm frigging naked" way, I don't think he actually cared about her reason for being there. Poor cold naked Jamie, heh.

[WatchrTina]

I'm glad that the show finally established Claire and Jamie's ages (Claire 27, Jamie five years younger -- he said "When I'm 40 you'll be 245").  I wondered why they wanted to specify that now and I suspect that it's because they wanted to reinforce how young Jamie is so that when he make a mess of being the Laird, it's more creditable.

[Starla]

I wonder where Murtagh is in all this. I can't imagine he stayed with Dougal after Jamie left, so it would make since for him to go straight to Lallybroch. Hopefully he'll show up in the next episode, so he can accompany Claire on her search. 

 

I'm uncertain who the dudes with the pistols were at the end. At first I thought it was Robbie McNab and cohort, but upon rewind neither of them looked like him. The Watch?

 

Edited to add a note about this:

 

 

I have a feeling that the Wentworth scenes won't be as graphic (or at least they won't show it) as the book, but it will still probably be too much for a lot of non book readers. I just hope they leave out the dialogue from Jamie's nightmare about Randall from book 2, cause that was gross.

 

I listened to an interview recently with the director of the Wentworth and Abbey episodes (Anna Foerster), and she said there are parts of those episodes that have probably never been shown on TV before, so it doesn't sound like they will shy away from it.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Starla

[Archery]

Jamie specifically says it's rent from the tenants - I thought at first that it was Jamie's share of the Leoch rents.

I don't know if it is just that I'm protective of one of my favorite books of all time, but the constant criticism about "too much assault" or "torture porn" is getting on my nerves. This has been the storyline of the book since it came out twenty years ago. It's not like the writers are thinking week to week, "What do we do now with these characters?" "How about another rape scene?" "Right, okay." The plot is the plot, and at least for these first three books, all of these scenes have a purpose and repercussions.

I'm perfectly willing to let the people tell their story, with whatever tweaks they need to serve their restraints of time, casting, and budget, as long as they stay true to the essence of the source material. It's never going to be exactly how I imagined it all those times I've read the books, but I known that certain things are going to have to happen, as brutal or uncomfortable as they are, because that's the storyline.

[SpiritSong]

I don't know if it is just that I'm protective of one of my favorite books of all time, but the constant criticism about "too much assault" or "torture porn" is getting on my nerves. This has been the storyline of the book since it came out twenty years ago. It's not like the writers are thinking week to week, "What do we do now with these characters?" "How about another rape scene?" "Right, okay." The plot is the plot, and at least for these first three books, all of these scenes have a purpose and repercussions.

I'm perfectly willing to let the people tell their story, with whatever tweaks they need to serve their restraints of time, casting, and budget, as long as they stay true to the essence of the source material. It's never going to be exactly how I imagined it all those times I've read the books, but I known that certain things are going to have to happen, as brutal or uncomfortable as they are, because that's the storyline.

It's one of my favorite books too, but television is a very different medium and things come across differently. The book is 850 pages long, so obviously they will have to cut, condense, move things around and so on. My problem with the series, which I do like overall, is what they choose to focus on. Jamie was brutally flogged in the book. Okay. Do we need to see it on screen over and over and over again? Wouldn't once be enough?

The book wasn't about Frank or Black Jack Randall though of course they are important secondary characters. It was the story of Claire and Jamie and I feel they've been playing second fiddle to Ronald Moore's love of Tobias Menzies. It's his adaptation of course, so he can do what he wants, but in my opinion he is skating very close to torture porn territory. Yes, there was sadism, rape and brutality in the book. There was also a lot of humor and romance and genuine emotion. I wish the television series was more balanced.

Edited April 27, 2015 by SpiritSong

[ulkis]

Great episode. The casting of Jenny and Ian was brilliant! Particularly Ian. He is one of my favorite book characters, and I felt the actor really conveyed his warmth and genuine kindness. One quibble I have - and it has to do with the series as a whole, although it was in particular evidence this week - is Sam Heughan's facial expression when someone is telling him something difficult to hear. Does anyone remember Joey Tribbiani's "smell the fart" acting from Friends? Sometimes he looks just like that, and it totally takes me out of the moment. It may be silly, but it is really bothering me! I need to get over it!

 

I liked the guy playing Ian too. He's cute.

 

I think Sam Heughan's jaw makes him look like he's shooting a blue steel look even when his face is just resting, heh. I was actually pretty impressed with his drunk acting, that's not easy to do without underplaying it or going too over the top.

[maraleia]

It's one of my favorite books too, but television is a very different medium and things come across differently. The book is 850 pages long, so obviously they will have to cut, condense, move things around and so on. My problem with the series, which I do like overall, is what they choose to focus on. Jamie was brutally flogged in the book. Okay. Do we need to see it on screen over and over and over again? Wouldn't once be enough?

The book wasn't about Frank or Black Jack Randall though of course they are important secondary characters. It was the story of Claire and Jamie and I feel they've been playing second fiddle to Ronald Moore's love of Tobias Menzies. It's his adaptation of course, so he can do what he wants, but in my opinion he is skating very close to torture porn territory. Yes, there was sadism, rape and brutality in the book. There was also a lot of humor and romance and genuine emotion. I wish the television series was more balanced.

I too wish that the show would give us more fun scenes including Claire still trying to adapt to the 18th century and Claire telling Jamie about the future. It would help liven up the show and provide a counterpoint to all the beatings and rapes/attempted rapes that keep cropping up because Diana wrote them and Ron has to include them because they mean something later.