S03.E20: The Fallen

[wonderwall]

for those of you who didn't catch it:

 

[catrox14]

Okay, of the sexytimes, the forehead touching, the kissing, IMO the way she taps his shoulder and he looks up at her and he gives him the blanket is like the most married thing they have done. I can't explain it. It's just a lovely intimate moment.  I'm also a sap

[millennium]

The most glaring stupidity is not having her at the hospital. Oliver could have texted Diggle, Felicity, and Laurel. Then she doesn't go with them for reasons. But the logical thing should have been Laurel knowing from the start. like the others.

 

Maybe the show is cutting corners.   I thought Captain Lance would have been all over that scene at Thea's and in Oliver's face at the hospital especially, but he was a no-show.     Sometimes I wonder if shows, like some companies, engage in creative staffing to keep costs down.

[tv echo]

olicity-amelladdictismyworld91 asked:

Hi, Marc, first of all congratulations for this episode, which was Amazing, and full of emotions, I was wondering if you could please give us the script of 3x20, especially the scene where Felicity says I love you to Oliver, and the one where they say goodbye. please, can you ???

Here you go…

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited April 26, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

The above released 3x20 script page says: "Heart racing, gazing into his eyes,nothing else matters... as she kisses him.  The kiss to end all kisses.  Oliver kissing her back."

 

So as scripted, Felicity is the one who initiates the kiss.  But as aired, it's Oliver who initiates the kiss.  I wonder if the change was due to SA's unscripted action of removing Felicity's glasses.

Edited April 26, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

What did someone here refer to him as? Eager Beaver Oliver Queen. I'm going with that.

[Genki]

I kinda got  the feeling that something was cut between the 'I love you' and the glasses removal. If they veered away from the script direction, that might explain it. I love the glasses removal, so not complaining.

[Guest]

Despite the fact that he lies to her (still don't understand why, unless he just thought he didn't have the time to explain...?), they should have kept that Oliver/Laurel goodbye scene. I think telling her to look after the city is a bit ridiculous because she is nowhere near ready for that yet but telling her to fix things with her dad was a nice thing to do, especially when you consider everything Quentin has done to Oliver in the last few episodes. 

 

Although now that I've read this scene, the one with Felicity and Laurel makes even less sense. I don't understand what they're doing there tbh. 

[Chaser]

Laurel can't handle the city alone. And I'm pretty sure after Roy's 'death' Quentin would do whatever he he could to stop her. It's a nice voice of confidence but it doesn't make much sense.

Making things right with her Dad works better.

[KirkB]

As it stands right now, with Roy gone and Oliver in Nanda Parbat, it's up to Laurel and Ray, with help from Diggle and Felicity, to protect the city. Or at least it would be if anyone had any interest in fighting crime any more.

[tv echo]

Plus Thea and Malcolm... assuming she's not crazy, I can see Oliver's sacrifice motivating Thea to take up his cause.  Malcolm would go along to watch over Thea.

Edited April 26, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

Okay, I'll give you Thea. But Malcolm? I'm not sure the guy who tried to destroy a chunk of the city would have any interest in protecting the rest of it.

[Password]

Yeah I mean Malcolm was all "I can finally be a real dad" in that final scene with Thea. He really doesn't care about the destruction he caused Starling City so I don't think he'll be too bothered with fighting crime. Unless they get in his way somehow. Or hurt Thea.

[tv echo]

And that's why I said Malcolm would go along to watch over Thea.  

 

In this episode's good-bye scene, when Oliver told Thea that Malcolm would take her back to Starling City, he looked at Malcolm, and Malcolm looked back. Oliver was silently turning over the care and protection of Thea to Malcolm because Oliver would no longer be there to watch over her.  I think Malcolm understood and accepted that charge.

[nksarmi]

I just can't with this.  Am I really supposed to accept Malcolm as the loving dad who would do anything to protect Thea?  Am I supposed to be ok with him hanging around Starling City now because of this?  Seriously, he killed Robert, kidnapped Walter, destroyed half the glades, is responsible for Tommy's death, and drugged Thea and had her kill Sara!!!!! Someone needs to put him in the ground and remove his head from his body so the pit can't save him.

[paigow]

Am I really supposed to accept Malcolm as the loving dad who would do anything to protect Thea? ...

Agreed that this is ridiculous. However, it is more believable than Laurel being a capable Black Canary. Laurel would likely lose to Thea one on one.

[tv echo]

I think Oliver hates Malcolm and hates what Malcolm has done to Thea.  But he's concerned with keeping Thea safe.  Oliver won't be around anymore to protect Thea, so his options are limited.  Malcolm loves Thea in his own twisted way, and Malcolm is a trained LOA assassin.  Diggle is a good fighter, but Malcolm is better.  Diggle also has his own family to protect.  Felicity is not a trained fighter.  Laurel or Ray?  Thea is probably a better fighter than both of them at this point.  Roy is elsewhere. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Malcolm's whole 'redemption arc' and lack of punishment for his horrific crimes is pure plot contrivance to keep JB on the show.  But this whole season is filled with illogic.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah the more you think about the whole "Malcolm redemption story" the worse it becomes. The most important part of a redemption story? The person being redeemed feels BAD about what they did! We have never seen Malcolm feel bad about ANY of his actions! Even though virtually everything that has gone wrong in this show, as, in fact, been his fault. Hell, it was his fault Oliver got sent to Craphole island in the first place! And he gets to be redeemed just because he`s Thea`s biodad, and thinks that makes him a good guy now? This guy gets everything he wants, when so many good people got nothing? I know the world is an unfair place, but come on! I do buy that he cares about Thea, but its a really selfish kind of caring If he loved her so much and wanted to protect her, he wouldn't have used her to kill Sara! Why does no one seem to care about this anymore? 

 

I understand wanting to keep JB around, because he does a great job, but have him be a reoccurring villain or something, don't try to justify keeping his murderous self around "for Thea`s sake". If his only purpose is protecting Thea, holy crap does he suck at it!

[calliope1975]

I have no idea why Oliver would want Malcolm within a million feet of Thea. Amanda Fucking Waller is a better guardian. What's to stop Malcolm from getting some other dumbass, convoluted plan and start drugging Thea again for some harebrained scheme? Oh Oliver, you plot driven beautiful idiot.

[thegreathoo]

The last two episodes were awesome, epic.

[KenyaJ]

Okay, of the sexytimes, the forehead touching, the kissing, IMO the way she taps his shoulder and he looks up at her and he gives him the blanket is like the most married thing they have done. I can't explain it. It's just a lovely intimate moment.  I'm also a sap

 

Don't forget the way she rubs his knee as she's moving to sit across from him. *heart eyes*

[tennisgurl]

 

I have no idea why Oliver would want Malcolm within a million feet of Thea. Amanda Fucking Waller is a better guardian.

The freaking Fern is a better guardian than Malcolm!

[statsgirl]

Don't forget the way she rubs his knee as she's moving to sit across from him. *heart eyes*

She also had her hand on his knee in the hospital corridor scene.  Felicity is a touchy person, but I'd rather have her touching Oliver than Ray.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The last two episodes were awesome, epic.

 

Honestly, the last 2 episodes are the first ones in a good long while that I actually rewatched in full (OK, there might have been a little bit of fastforwarding involved during a hug in the last ep) right after the airing. For most of the eps after the midseason finale I tended to wait until the next day because I just wasn't interested in watching the entire thing again. The good stuff I wanted to see again I could find on Tumblr :P

 

She also had her hand on his knee in the hospital corridor scene.  Felicity is a touchy person, but I'd rather have her touching Oliver than Ray.

 

I really like that about her, how she's not afraid to show affection openly.

[foreverevolving]

I think I must be the only person in the universe that doesn't see any sexual chemistry between SA and ER. Or rather, I don't see any physical sexual chemistry. At all. On the jet when they're sharing a look together - wowza, I see it then. But the second they kiss, it all just disappears and it looks like they're just two wet fish. I wish I could see it, because as characters they work together. I've noticed that while ER has chemistry with a lot of characters, every kiss she's shared onscreen looked very awkward, so maybe it's just her thing. I don't know. Either way, for that reason, the sex scene did not work for me. The goodbye scene worked... until they went all cold fish again. Ugh. I hate when things fall at the last hurdle.

 

I think the reason for that may be EBR being sort of new to the business... I haven't seen any other stuff she's been at, but i'm gonna guess that unlike SA she hasn't done many kissing & love scenes. those can be awkward for actors at the best of times, despite best intentions. her lack of experience with those scenes may be the reason why they come off as off for some people.

Edited April 27, 2015 by foreverevolving

[WaitandHope]

So I have been so distracted by watching the scenes over and over again that I never posted my thoughts on the episode. I won't be too redundant. Like a lot of the reviewers and forum members, I recognized that this might not be the best episode ever, but the Olicity goodness literally meant I didn't care. The end. It was probably not as solid an episode as last week's - and it certainly lacked the overall enjoyment and plotting of Brave and the Bold, but this is the only episode of the season that I bought off ITunes, so I guess that's where it fell for me.

I just really cannot believe that Malcolm is really this character. When he acted concerned about the LP, I genuinely thought he was BSing and I will be super sad at the end of the season if this is all there is to Malcolm's plan. It feels like it is a long con and he was using reverse psychology - that it has always been his intention to have his daughter come back "changed" and "enhanced" from the Pit. I just didn't buy his concern... And if this is genuine Malcolm, then I really do think his character has been a total waste of time and space all year.

Other than that, all was so good. I was basically spoiled for the entire episode - except the roofie - but I still enjoyed it immensely.

[steeledwithakiss]

I think the reason for that may be EBR being sort of new to the business... I haven't seen any other stuff she's been at, but i'm gonna guess that unlike SA she hasn't done many kissing & love scenes. those can be awkward for actors at the best of times, despite best intentions. her lack of experience with those scenes may be the reason why they come off as off for some people.

I wouldn't put it all on EBR. I saw her in a weird tv movie with that crazy guy from One Tree Hill (it made sense in my head) and the kissing scene was very hot. I haven't seen GG in anything else but his kissing scenes on the Flash (well with Iris and Caitlin at least, I haven't seen him with Lynda) were not very convincing. And BR is also an awkward on screen kisser. SA with all of his partners on Arrow has been very tame, a lot of closed mouth kisses. I agree that the whole lifting up looked a little awkward but again it was because SA didn't dare to go for it. The rest of the scene though was very sexy I think and their kisses were pretty hot (open mouths and tongues), not that I have analyzed them or anything (kidding totally did). For being her first on screen love scene I'd say Emily did very good. I bought the connection, the lust, the love. It was the best love scene of the show for me. I was not disappointed (I didn't want a repeat of Cordelia/Angel) at all.

[kismet]

I think their love scenes will just get better over time. Their kisses are not the hottest I have seen on the CW or other networks, but they are good. What they do best in my opinion is bring the deep intensity & connection in most of their stares & small touches here/there. I know not everybody sees it (which is fine), but there are so many times I feel more heat from their eyesex than their actual kisses. What did bring more heat to their scene this time was their hands & their hip motion, that was pretty intense for an 8p slot to not be shot or edited out.

[catrox14]

Jensen Ackles has spoken of how awkward sex scenes are and how he is always protective of the scene partner to make sure she feels respected and safe. I would imagine that SA feels much the same way with Emily. SA has had extremely graphic sex scenes in HUNG and I think he might just put the brakes on out of respect for Emily. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.

 

And it could be that they are intentionally making the sex more tender between the two to show "love" vs "lust".  Maybe we'll have another sex scene when they really go for it after the characters feel more free to let there freaks fly.

[Chaser]

I didn't have any problem with the love scene. Didn't find it awkward. I got the very distinct impression they were going for sensual and intimate. As one reviewer described it: a combination of Heat and Heart. I thought it was achieved perfectly.

[steeledwithakiss]

"Heat and heart" that's exactly it. I don't know if some people expected the rip your clothes off type of scene but while it worked for O/S (it was kinda of sudden) it could never with how, where and why it happened here. We had Felicity confessing her love, and not only that she basically said she loved him more than she ever loved anyone in her life, the same night Thea was resurected, it was their first time and probably their last (as far as they know). The way they played it was, for me, perfect with what the characters are to each other, I wouldn't have had it any other way. I read a review that said that thanks to the feel of the scene it didn't feel gratuitious and I completely agree.

Edited April 27, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[quarks]

I liked it mostly because the way it was filmed (as opposed to the script) I could see a small series of little decisions leading up to it.

 

I don't think that Felicity got on the plane with the idea that this would happen (could, of course, since Ray had just pointed it out), since of course she had no idea that the League of Assassins had romantically decorated bedrooms complete with plenty of candles.  Or that Ra's Al Ghul was going to let Oliver have one last night as Oliver Queen before getting branded with an arrow in front of various assassins undoubtedly thinking, you know, if we'd had abs like that, we'd probably be the ones picked.  Damn Ra's for being so shallow and choosing our next leader based solely on looks!  

 

When she heads into his bedroom she clearly doesn't want them interrupted by shadowy assassins, and checks to make sure the door is shut. Which I'm all for. They talk, and she ends with "I love you," and leaves it there, because at this point, for all she knows, Oliver could still pull one of his variations on "I can't be with someone I really care about," so she lets him respond.  He does - leaning in for what is still (whatever the script says) on screen a relatively chaste kiss, something that could be left there. Once that happens, and Felicity knows Oliver's stopped pushing her away, she decides to go for it - kissing him back and then standing up to take off her jacket. Oliver gives her one incredulous look of "We're really doing this?" and then he can't take his shirt off fast enough. And the next kiss is not at all platonic or chaste, even if the hand placement seconds afterwards is remembering that this is an 8 o'clock show. It's a nice series of individual and mutual decisions.

[jay741982]

for those of you who didn't catch it:

 

Is Felicity making sure her scent is on that blanket? Haha

[Guest]

Agree with others here. I thought the love scene was perfect because it really felt like a scene between two people in love. I didn't want a 'rip-off your clothes' type of intensity like some were expecting. I wanted slow, intimate and sensual. I wanted to see a difference from Oliver's other sex scenes and I did. I don't care that it was a bit unsure in some places when they first started. It felt realistic to me because this was a huge step for them.

 

I just love everything about it. The way Oliver can't believe it's happening and can't get his shirt off fast enough. How he can't take his eyes off her and looks at her with such reverence and love. They can't stop kissing and touching each other. And then when he flips her? Wowsa. So hot. 

 

I'll stop talking about this now (but I won't stop watching it). Haha.

[apinknightmare]

Is it just me or is Felicity's hair, like, a lot shorter in the hospital scene than it is in the rest of the ep? I wonder when they shot that one.

[Ang]

Well, that explains the weirdness of the cut after the ILY, I guess. After rewatching the scene sans music (linked in the Clocktower thread) and feeling like a bit of a perv for it, I think they made a mistake with all the cuts back and forth between the two between the ILY and the kiss. It makes sense that the glasses move was unscripted so they didn't have as many shots to work with, but using such similar but obviously different takes of SA just emphasized that fact. The scoreless version also reveals how terrible the sound editing was there, too, which was probably what took me out of the scene more than anything.

I want to say that I agree that Laurel needed a goodbye scene, that a call for reconciliation was appropriate but one for protecting the city was not (especially as I feel the show has done a poor job of making the case that masked vigilantes are needed or making a difference), that it is absurd that the show can't handle writing for more than two female characters per episode, and that as little as I enjoy KC's work as Laurel, she deserves better than this inconsistent crap.... I want to say all that, but every time I start thinking about it I start seeing red and fuming, so I won't. ;-)

Quoting this because it bears repeating and I couldn't agree more:

Arrow Season 3 has not been about fighting crime. And they changed the show more into a serial than it had already been.

The problem with season 3 is that they chose such a large theme and didn't know how to sustain it. 3a and 3b have actually been the same story stretched out and repeated. They wanted Oliver to die to push the other's journey but it didn't jell because they brought back Oliver too soon. They were not as brave as they tell themselves.

3a should have been closer to what they are telling in the 2.5 comics and 3b needed to be tighter. What's happening now should have happened with Oliver's non death. The audience should have seen Oliver's brainwashing process and those in Starling morn and try to deal.

[Chaser]

The cuts during Felicity's monolouge were the ones I had issue with, as much as I would have liked to see SA reactions, they should have kept it more on Felicity. Like the date scene.

[TrueMyth]

Better yet, a two shot, both actors in frame, with EBR canted slightly to 3/4th profile. They could cut to one shots, but the longer they run a scene, the more drama builds. My favorite romantic scenes are almost always two shots.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Is it just me or is Felicity's hair, like, a lot shorter in the hospital scene than it is in the rest of the ep? I wonder when they shot that one.

 

Yes! I just noticed this today. I wondered if the pony tail was higher up than usual but it really wasn't.

[calliope1975]

So that scene is the gift that keeps on giving. When Oliver picks up Felicity and takes her to the bed, he's barefoot. Was he just chillin' in the room in a jacket but without shoes? In his scramble to remove his shirt as quickly as possible, did he take his shoes off then as well? I have so many questions.

[tv echo]

The promo for this episode had included a scene of Malcolm saying to Thea (right before she's lowered into the LP), "You don't have to come back if you don't want to."  That scene did not appear in the aired episode.  JB retweeted a fan comment who wished it had stayed in.

John Barrowman MBE retweeted
Nancy @barrowmanfan4ev  ·  3h 3 hours ago
@Team_Barrowman Wish Arrow kept S3E20 TheFallen scene of you talkg2 Thea's white clad corpse (at 16sec) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jiQ_vJ5tl4 via @YouTube

https://twitter.com/team_barrowman

Edited April 28, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

splitsunshine asked:

Would you be so awesome as to release the script pages for the goodbye scene between oliver/diggle/felicity??

Here you go…

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited April 30, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

After looking at those script pages I'm even more impressed with the goodbye scenes. All my favorite parts were choices the actors or director made, not in the script.

[kismet]

After looking at those script pages I'm even more impressed with the goodbye scenes. All my favorite parts were choices the actors or director made, not in the script.

When season 3 wraps up, I think we'll see that it was the actors or the directors that saved most of the important & few good parts of the season. Without the actors/directors most of the season would have been ridiculous plot reveals onto a solid base of illogical jello.

[Enero]

Finally saw this episode. What a snoozer. Crazy enough I think the most interesting thing about it was serious Ray. I really liked his scene with Felicity. If he'd shown that side when they were dating I think I could've actually rooted for them. He didn't have to be a brooder but a lot less quirky happiness with crazy eyes and stalker behavior would've made him more appealing.

Thea’s resurrection scene was ridiculous on so many levels. From the chanting, to her turning into a raging lunatic to Felicity being there. Why again was Felicity there? Wasn't this place supposed to be the most sacred secret place of the LOA? I can see Oliver and Malcom being there. Oliver was invited and Malcom has a history with the League but why Felicity was there was beyond me. Shouldn’t she have been in one of the estate rooms with Diggle. Speaking of Diggle, though the scene he had with Maseo was nice, it made absolutely no sense that he'd be taking a tour of the living quarters while everyone else was at the resurrection ceremony at the Lazarus Pit.

Back to Felicity, finally she tells Oliver she loves him but it kind of fell flat. I think mainly due to EBR’s delivery. The sex scene was very very pretty. I really do like the Nanda Parbat sets they're nicely done. But the sex...all these months of build up then…fizzle. They generated fire when they were throwing each other looks and barely touching. They finally hook up and nothing. No sizzle. They didn't even get an afterglow scene. The afterglow was them fully clothed mumbling about what I don't know. I think I might've dozed off it was so boring and the subsequent goodbye scenes weren't much better. Very disappointing. I fear Olicity might be one of those couples that have amazing sexual tension only for them to hook up and loose all of their heat.

Also, I can understand Felicity wanting to save the man that she loves but trying to sneak Oliver out of Nanda Parbat was idiotic. Even if the plan was a success where were they going to go? Ra's would kill them all and destroy everyone and everything they love over doing this.

Loved the Oliver/Diggle goodbye scene. They are brothers. Sniff.

I actually like Ra’s and his twisted relationship with Oliver. Is it terrible that I'm kind of rooting for him?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Enero

[apinknightmare]

Why again was Felicity there? Wasn't this place supposed to be the most sacred secret place of the LOA? I can see Oliver and Malcom being there. Oliver was invited and Malcom has a history with the League but why Felicity was there was beyond me. Shouldn’t she have been in one of the estate rooms with Diggle. 

 

Diggle was there, in the "most sacred secret place of the LOA." He wasn't in an estate room. 

[tv echo]

Felicity's 'escape plan' was out of desperation - she knew that it had almost no chance of success.  Also, Diggle and Malcolm could've stopped her by simply refusing to go along.  It's not like she could carry Oliver's body by herself.  So they were all doing a Hail Mary. 

 

Another thing that recently occurred to me - how do we know that Ra's even planned to let them go at all?  He could've had Oliver say good-bye to them and then secretly had his assassins kill Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Malcolm once they were outside, and Oliver might've never known.  So it's possible that the ill-conceived escape attempt ended up saving their lives, since Oliver personally escorted them out.

Edited May 2, 2015 by tv echo

[steeledwithakiss]

It might have been a stupid plan, but imagine the backlash if she hadn't tried anything and just bid him goodbye. We would have had weeks of "she never fights for him, she doesn't love him as much as her loves her...".

[statsgirl]

I think of Felicity's plan as a comic book plan, never going to work realistically, on a comic book show to demonstrate to the audience (particularly those who think that Oliver/Felicity is a speed bump) how much she loves Oliver.  But I admit I'm biased.

Edited May 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I knocked her plan from an execution standpoint. It was beyond a hail mary. But on the spot & in the moment it was likely the only option. Really hoped they had had some other strategies or contingencies.

But like Oliver, I loved her all the more for trying. It was a bold move. I wish it had worked.

Very good point tv echo! Never thought about it from that angle. She might have saved their livees, cuz ras does seem like the type to go back on his word.

Edited May 3, 2015 by kismet