S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[Chaos Theory]

Stan keeping his job was hard to believe. It felt like that scene from the movie Stripes: "You're just the kind of go-getters we've been looking for". But now Gaad and Aderholt hate his guts.

I think that is the point wasn't the 80s the era of Chuck Norris and Mel Gibson? The shoot first and don't bother to ask questions. Stan would fit in nicely.

As for the lack of Martha and her living/dead status. I will assume she is alive. Phillip killing the IT guy holds no purpose if he already killed Martha. Killing and framing IT guy for the pen thing now clears Martha for spy duty.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[ruby24]

If Pastor Tim just "happens" to die from an accident after she tells him the truth, that'd be way too big a coincidence for her not to see through, imo. Although she hasn't actually asked if they kill people yet (which she should have wondered by now), so I guess maybe she'd buy it. I assume he's probably going to tell his wife though, so they'd have to take out both of them.

 

Doing it on his Kenya trip would be the best option there.

[John S]

Yeah. That's why I don't see it happening. Even if Elizabeth wanted to, I think Philip would snap before doing something he knows would destroy her. And once they find out she already confessed it to someone (no matter who it was), they will know that they cannot trust her with this at all, ever. I mean, in light of that, this whole thing is over. They have to make a decision- destroy Paige by killing her pastor and threatening her into silence, or turning themselves in, right? Try to get some kind of a deal.

 

I think Philip would go for the latter. But I'm wondering if this whole reveal is going to have immediate consequences next season, or maybe halfway through. Maybe Pastor Tim plays it cool for a while, and just tries to help Paige without telling anyone what he knows, at least at first.

I wonder if Paige would tell her parents that she told someone. What would they do then? Would they grab her and force her to tell them who she told? Would they slap her until she told?

If Pastor Tim is a Soviet, how would she ever be able to trust another person for the rest of her life? She would never be able to trust a boyfriend, female friend, or anyone else that she ever came into contact with. Her psychological problems would be worse than her mother's.

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, Paige can't be trusted either.  She has gone behind her parents' back's and done something that she promised she would not do.  I'm just not that concerned with Paige's sensibilities at this point.  Sometimes the survival of the family depends on young people to do very heroic acts.  Throughout history, teens have had to make enormous sacrifices, take up a weapon, walk across an entire country, not eat for weeks, witness their loved ones' death, etc. to protect their family.  IMO, Page didn't really try to protect hers.

[RedHawk]

Count me in as one who found the Phillip/Sandra interactions moving and laced with some mad sexual tension, and I can't say I'm totally opposed to a fling in S4, even though I love P/E united and even though I'm not sure he isn't somehow running an op on Sandra to get to get to Stan.

 

 

I don't think he's using her now, but it's very possible that he will need to later, probably after they've developed a real connection (not necessarily sexual). That would further devastate Philip.

 

So Elizabeth has done her duty and cleansed/redeemed her mother and herself of the shame of her traitor father. Now she's a hero of the KGB, and yet she may still have to sacrifice her daughter's future/life to the "cause"? Next season could be even more fascinating!

[Cara]

I think there is a strong possibility that he won't believe her. I mean I'm not sure I would. It does sound a bit far fetched. I would probably think it was just a teenager's over active imagination. Especially, as someone above pointed out with the timing, just after the evil empire speech was on the news.

There might be something to the fact that we didn't hear her tell him that they're "spies." He may not take them being Russian as necessarily the same thing, just assume they're illegal immigrants trying to escape Russia or something. But given how upset Paige is about this whole thing, maybe he could figure that out too.

Either way, I'm not sure that killing him can be a solution here, because it would totally destroy Paige and then they have an even bigger problem.

He might think that. But, hasn't she previously told his about some of their strange behavior, unexplained middle of the night absences and that type of thing? That might give him some suspicious thoughts.

A bit of a RL side story where something similar happened. I went to school with a boy from Iran. He arrived either while the hostages were still being held or soon after. I can't remember for sure exactly when he came. His family had been loyal to the Shah. I think his grandfather worked for him in some capacity. But they were able to escape. He claimed he was from India. He stuck to the Indian story for a couple more years. He finally told the truth. I guess he eventually felt safe enough and trusted people enough to realize that people weren't going to hold what the militants did against him.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Cara

[ruby24]

Well, Paige can't be trusted either.  She has gone behind her parents' back's and done something that she promised she would not do.  I'm just not that concerned with Paige's sensibilities at this point.  Sometimes the survival of the family depends on young people to do very heroic acts.  Throughout history, teens have had to make enormous sacrifices, take up a weapon, walk across an entire country, not eat for weeks, witness their loved ones' death, etc. to protect their family.  IMO, Page didn't really try to protect hers.

Okay, but...we do have to remember that her parents are killers and not exactly good people. I mean sure, she doesn't fully know how bad they are, but should you always protect your family even if they're doing illegal things?

[Bannon]

Well, Paige can't be trusted either.  She has gone behind her parents' back's and done something that she promised she would not do.  I'm just not that concerned with Paige's sensibilities at this point.  Sometimes the survival of the family depends on young people to do very heroic acts.  Throughout history, teens have had to make enormous sacrifices, take up a weapon, walk across an entire country, not eat for weeks, witness their loved ones' death, etc. to protect their family.  IMO, Page didn't really try to protect hers.

Are people worthy of protection, by reason of DNA, when they spend nearly your entire life lying to you about the most fundamental things, while risking that you will end up being raised by strangers or in an institutional setting? Procreating does not in and of itself render someone worthy of protection. Elizabeth and Phillip are hideous parents. They deserve nothing.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

I thought the scene of Paige praying for Elizabeth's mother was really well acted.  I had the strong sense that for the first time Elizabeth almost wished that she could pray too, even though she still dismisses all religion as ridiculous.  In a way, it's a parallel to Philip and EST: both Elizabeth and Philip occasionally feel some sort of *lack.

 

 

Everybody feels a lack. It's not unusual for Christians to even feel worse about this because they're supposed to have everything they need in God, then they feel like it's their failure if they're not happy. Paige praying for Elizabeth's mother was something to do, but not necessarily anything better than what Elizabeth was doing. Paige doesn't know the woman so she's not feeling much at her loss. But later on the phone she tells Pastor Tim she tried praying and praying didn't help.

 

The thing I found interesting was what Elizabeth's mother said.  "I had to let you go.  Everything depended on it."  I'm not positive of the exact quote, did anyone get it?  It sure didn't SOUND like she wanted to!  Which is kind of shocking since joining the KGB was considered about the best job you could get.

 

 

 

I could believe a dying woman would have changed her memories to see herself as being more regretful about it than she might have been.

1. I don't think it's possible to compare what a thirteen year old girl, left hanging away from home and responsible for the care and welfare of her younger brother (for the upteenth time), does in reaction to being failed (again) by her parents, to forty year old adults who commit murder and treason playing patriot games.

I don't care if they're patriotic zealots trying to save the motherland. I don't care that this was a different time - by the way, I am exactly Paige's age, young children being left alone in the middle of night was not even close to the norm in the 80s . I don't care that Americans have also been spies.

 

 

The hitchhiking happened because her parents were kidnapped, and was not treated as something that happened all the time, so Paige was not reacting to having to constantly take care of her brother because her parents let her down (now she's old enough to babysit). Of course little kids were not left alone at night in the 80s.

 

I was not comparing the two things. I was challenging the philosophy of not being a liar. Elizabeth is simply right, as we see in the show over and over. Even when people are trying to be honest, like Sandra, they ask people to keep things quiet, keep secrets from other people. Paige had good reason for not wanting her parents to know about the hitchhiking and might absolutely make the same choice today without considering herself a big liar, because that's human nature.

 

2. Paige's need to be honest seems to be religion-based. When the hitchhiking incident occurred, Paige was still a casual atheist. I see no hypocrisy in her actions, just idealism.

 

 

I wasn't calling her a hypocrite, that wasn't my point--and I don't believe that her "I don't want to be a liar" is entirely religion-based. I think it's also about her wanting to be a certain type of person who is different from her parents and she'd probably be the same whether or not she happened to have become Christian. But I still disagree that as a Christian she would not, today, still run into situations where she would find it better to lie, because that's almost impossible. Even now she's not telling everyone about her parents, she's confiding to Pastor Tim and telling *him* not to tell anybody--because she's got good reason to not tell everyone. 

 

3. At this point we have no idea if Paige would happily support Pastor Tim's lies. What Paige knows is that, as far as she knows, the pastor has not lied to her, unlike her parents.

 

 

Yeah, we don't. I'm just speculating that she would. I think if Pastor Tim was in trouble she'd be very hesitant about not helping him and if he framed the lying as something God thought was a good idea (for the cause) she might consider it.

 

 

4. Civil Disobedience accomplished a lot in this world, and most people did not risk jail and violence so they could be "properly arrested".

 

 

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. I was comparing Paige's response to Gregory being a drug-dealer and therefore a criminal with Tim's civil disobedience which involves him breaking the law symbolically and risking arrest on principal. Therefore Pastor Tim is not a criminal in Paige's eyes despite having a record, while Gregory is--not only is he breaking the law for noble reasons, he's submitting to arrest on purpose.

 

5. Yes most of us are liars, but few of us commit multiple murders and/or espionage. Lies do not carry the same weight, or people taking a pencil from work would be sitting on death row with the serial killers.

 

 

Of course they don't. My point was that everyone lies, like Elizabeth said. Her point was actually a very sound one, even if it was completely terrible in that context with Paige. Not telling people that your parents are actually Russian and you just met your grandmother, not telling people you ran into your neighbor/neighbor's wife at an EST seminar, waiting until your wife goes out of town to go to an EST seminar, letting your pastor think your parents gave permission for a sleepover--this is not some bizarre behavior that no one would ever do. People did it throughout the ep.

 

 

6. Unlike Paige, Henry was not curled up in a ball, tormented by the need to confess to his parents about the hitchhiker. Paige expecting Henry to maintain a years old lie, is not comparable to expecting Paige to keep a devastating lie about her parents, whose job just happens to be the destruction of her country.

 

 

Again, I never said it was comparable. I'm challenging her view of herself as "not a liar" which she seems very proud of and gave as the reason why she couldn't lie for Elizabeth. I don't think it's a good approach to life--and it seems very much the way Elizabeth operates. Elizabeth is I think usually the biggest hypocrite on the show because she holds herself and others to a high standard of behavior, but naturally finds justifications for herself when she can't live up to it. 

 

I thought Elizabeth and Paige were very alike in this episode, even while being total opposites. 

[bluebonnet]

Well, Paige can't be trusted either.  She has gone behind her parents' back's and done something that she promised she would not do.  I'm just not that concerned with Paige's sensibilities at this point.  Sometimes the survival of the family depends on young people to do very heroic acts.  Throughout history, teens have had to make enormous sacrifices, take up a weapon, walk across an entire country, not eat for weeks, witness their loved ones' death, etc. to protect their family.  IMO, Page didn't really try to protect hers.

Did Paige actually make a promise?  I can't recall if there was a specific moment where she made a vow to keep this secret.

 

Even then, it's hard to argue that she should be beholden to this.  She didn't consent to this life.  Her parents chose in long before she was born.  She's also not being told all of the information she needs to make an informed decision.  She doesn't know that her parents are murderers (and I still don't know why knowing they are spies immediately suggests they are murderers, it's not like Matthew would immediately think his own father is a murderer just because he's FBI), she doesn't know that people's lives are in actual danger, including her own, if she discusses this thing.  The worst thing that can happen, as she's been told, is jail for P & E.  But even then, that doesn't mean that Paige has to consent to lie about who she is.  

 

I don't know, I guess I just can't condemn a child who just needs someone to talk to, especially when P & E allowed something like the church to get their [snip] claws into her.  They should have been directing her to have friends her own age and be involved in appropriate activities instead of hanging out with a creepy middle aged man who IMO touts fairy tales as though it's reality.  Or, they shouldn't have told her the truth in a moment where she clearly just wanted to be told that she's loved and that she matters.  

Edited April 24, 2015 by maraleia
removed the word disgusting- inappropriate characterization, added IMO because fairy tales is an opinion expressed by the poster not a blanket statement for everyone

[blixie]

 

Either way, I'm not sure that killing him can be a solution here, because it would totally destroy Paige and then they have an even bigger problem.

 

I can't believe if they went that route the center would be leaving her in the wind, they'd have to snatch her and take her someplace where she can turn, or die, but in either case be used as ongoing leverage with P/E.

 

 

I would like to believe that Pastor Tim is a plant by the Centre, but I think I've read on these boards that it's been confirmed by the writers that he is indeed just a pastor.

 

Did they? I mean I wouldn't be surprised it would be a cheat and gotcha out of nowhere, BUT I'm just really really annoyed by him and I feel her creepy devotion to him, and want to see Paige's faith in him shaken a bit, maybe it will be him dismissing her confession about her secretively Russian lying parents, or telling her parents she told him. It bugs me so much to see otherwise secular teens portrayed as converting to Christianity at a time when it literally could not be more dorky and unappealing to them. Most of the Jesus people I knew in high school were a) raised in some kind super devout family or b) born again former addicts, even accounting for reverse psychology rebellion I can't say it's a particular common experience. Did Paige really need to be under the sway of religion to flip her shit about her parents being lying Russian spies? I don't think so.

[sistermagpie]

Are people worthy of protection, by reason of DNA, when they spend nearly your entire life lying to you about the most fundamental things, while risking that you will end up being raised by strangers or in an institutional setting? Procreating does not in and of itself render someone worthy of protection. Elizabeth and Phillip are hideous parents. They deserve nothing.

 

 

Well, that's subjective. They've done a hideous thing to her, but I think they've been perfectly loving parents most of the time and most kids would still see them that way. That was clear in the scene where Philip was showing her the pictures of them going camping. Whether they're worthy of protection isn't really the point. It's that Paige would have every reason to love them, despite being angry at them. Elizabeth could say the same about her mother--the woman basically booted her daughter into this life enthusiastically, but Elizabeth still loves her and wants to protect her. They didn't just procreate, they raised her in a very hands-on, loving way. Some kids would cut them off and never look back upon learning they were really Russian spies, some wouldn't. I don't think Paige would grow up to be a very happy person if she did the former. Just as Elizabeth benefits by softening to Philip I think Paige would benefit by being more interested in understanding her parents, even if at this point she's not ready. I feel like that has to happen next year. It wouldn't be interesting to just watch Devout Paige judging her parents. Philip is right when he says it's not all a lie, but that's more grey than black and white.

 

As to whether she should be beholden to any promise--I agree she didn't make one. But "can she be trusted" simply implies whether or not she can be trusted to not tell anyone, and clearly she can't for a combination of reasons. 

 

It bugs me so much to see otherwise secular teens portrayed as converting to Christianity at a time when it literally could not be more dorky and unappealing to them.

 

 

I think it's interesting that the show went out of its way to make it a liberal church. On one hand it was needed to give Elizabeth the idea that there was some common ground. But it's also neatly sidestepping a lot of beliefs that might read as right-wing today. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by sistermagpie

[VCRTracking]

"OH NO HE DIDN'T!"

 

-What Elizabeth was thinking(probably) after seeing Reagan's "Evil Empire" speech

Edited April 23, 2015 by VCRTracking

[OrientalAmish]

I was hoping Arkady would be used more often when I saw that he got promoted to series regular.... But, nope, didn't happen.... It was like he still was recurring.... ;-x

[Bannon]

Well, that's subjective. They've done a hideous thing to her, but I think they've been perfectly loving parents most of the time and most kids would still see them that way. That was clear in the scene where Philip was showing her the pictures of them going camping. Whether they're worthy of protection isn't really the point. It's that Paige would have every reason to love them, despite being angry at them. Elizabeth could say the same about her mother--the woman basically booted her daughter into this life enthusiastically, but Elizabeth still loves her and wants to protect her. They didn't just procreate, they raised her in a very hands-on, loving way. Some kids would cut them off and never look back upon learning they were really Russian spies, some wouldn't. I don't think Paige would grow up to be a very happy person if she did the former. Just as Elizabeth benefits by softening to Philip I think Paige would benefit by being more interested in understanding her parents, even if at this point she's not ready. I feel like that has to happen next year. It wouldn't be interesting to just watch Devout Paige judging her parents. Philip is right when he says it's not all a lie, but that's more grey than black and white.

 

As to whether she should be beholden to any promise--I agree she didn't make one. But "can she be trusted" simply implies whether or not she can be trusted to not tell anyone, and clearly she can't for a combination of reasons. 

 

 

I think it's interesting that the show went out of its way to make it a liberal church. On one hand it was needed to give Elizabeth the idea that there was some common ground. But it's also neatly sidestepping a lot of beliefs that might read as right-wing today. 

Oh, I think it would be credible if Paige continued to love her parents; children tend to do that. I just think it is inaccurate to imply that Paige has any rational moral obligation to protect her parents. I also think it is problematic to say a parent has been "perfectly loving" in any context, when, on a daily basis, for years, the parent has willingly placed the child in significant physical danger, to pursue the parent's ideological cause, in any context but the most dire imaginable, such as Jews in the Holocaust. 

 

I think the writers missed an opportunity when they didn't make the Pastor a liberal Catholic Priest, in the context of a KGB which tried to assassinate the Pope, because they saw the Bishop of Rome to be their greatest ideological threat in their traditional geopolitical sphere of domination. The contradictions would have been extraordinarily rich.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[AGuyToo]

Paige is 15 BTW.

I think RedHeadZombie was referring to the Season 1 scene in which Paige and Henry were hitchhiking. Season 1 happened two years before Season 3, and so Paige was indeed 13.

[RedHawk]

They should have been directing her to have friends her own age and be involved in appropriate activities instead of hanging out with a creepy middle aged man who touts fairy tales as though it's reality.

 

 

We know that Paige was on the volleyball team and had friends her own age. There have been references to this, as well as to Henry having friends. A lot of people miss these and think that Paige and Henry were always somehow isolated, not allowed to have friends or school activities, told to stay home taking care of each other rather than being normal kids. That's not the case.

 

However, if P&E had spent more time at home and less time being weirdly absent and mysterious, Paige may not have turned toward the community the church offered her. By the time Paige admitted her interest in the church it was too late for them to "forbid" her to go, as they had no good reason to do so. They could see that they had to let her explore it or risk her being openly angry and rebellious. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by RedHawk

[terrymct]

I'm a little confused by Elizabeth and Paige's trip.   They flew to West Germany.  Did they actually cross over into East Germany?  It looked like some men brought Elizabeth's mother to their hotel which was in West Germany (West Berlin I'm assuming).  Or did Elizabeth and Paige cross into East Germany and meet Elizabeth's mother in a hotel there?   A terminally ill woman was bundled up and driven from her home (presumably the same mining town Elizabeth grew up in) all the way to Germany (East or West), then she's bundled up again and driven home?   How did Phillip arrange all of that without using his handler as an intermediary?

[bluebonnet]

We know that Paige was on the volleyball team and had friends her own age. There have been references to this, as well as to Henry having friends. A lot of people miss these and think that Paige and Henry were always somehow isolated, not allowed to have friends or school activities, told to stay home taking care of each other rather than being normal kids. That's not the case.

 

However, if P&E had spent more time at home and less time being weirdly absent and mysterious, Paige may not have turned toward the community the church offered her. 

I didn't miss this.  She's no longer on the volleyball team.  She was allowed to quit in favor of something inappropriate, like a church youth group.  

 

But yes, that's pretty much my point.  P & E were no longer directing Paige's life.  They had little involvement, which is a major reason that Paige began to feel abandoned and unloved and eventually led her to running into religion.  

[Cardie]

It looked like some men brought Elizabeth's mother to their hotel which was in West Germany (West Berlin I'm assuming).  Or did Elizabeth and Paige cross into East Germany and meet Elizabeth's mother in a hotel there?

 

West Berlin was an island of West Germany surrounded by East Germany. East Berlin was close to the Polish border, part of the Soviet sphere of influence. It's a fourteen-hour drive from Smolensk to Berlin, so I would imagine they flew her into either Poland or East Berlin and then drove her across into West Berlin. But there's no way the logistics work out unless the KGB (reluctantly) went along, presumably after clearing it with the Centre.

[sistermagpie]

But yes, that's pretty much my point.  P & E were no longer directing Paige's life.  They had little involvement, which is a major reason that Paige began to feel abandoned and unloved and eventually led her to running into religion.

 

 

 

 

I don't quite see how her quitting the volleyball team in favor of a church group shows that Elizabeth and Philip have abandoned her at all. It seems appropriate to her maturity level. At 14 Paige would choose her own activities. She's at the right age to be exploring things for herself, making her own friends and developing new interests. She was no longer interested in volleyball and was interested in the church group--how should her parents direct her life to make that turn out different? Shouldn't she have the freedom to go to a church group if that's where she wants to hang out? Philip did scold her about sticking with volleyball until the end of the season, but I think plenty of non-spy parents might have lost that fight too. 

 

To be clear, I took that dropping of volleyball as a red flag too--Paige seems to have frankly become completely obsessed with her church and depends on it for all her social activities--with Pastor Tim being the focus of those activities rather than other kids in the group. She seems to have actually opted out of human relationships in favor of ideology, like someone else we know. We never see Paige interacting with kids in the youth group looking halfway like friends even in the background. When she mentions her friends now I assume they must be church group kids because she simply no longer seems to mention anything else, and her commitment to the group seems to take up so much time I honestly have trouble imagining her having a normal conversation with a non-church group kid. I would be very disturbed as a parent if my kid was quitting everything for the world of this one guy--but if she's still going to school etc. can they really direct her to have different interests and friends? I imagine many parents of teenagers are dismayed at the people their kids hang out with without being able to really do anything about it. It would probably have been better if her parents had found ways to make her spread out more, but they were aware of what she was doing.

 

I was actually thinking of the volleyball scene last week because of how it compares to Pastor Tim. Note how the school calls the parents when their child quits the volleyball team. She's free to do it, but they inform the parents to make sure they know there's been a life change there and they know the parents could easily not know about it. The school comes across as having appropriate boundaries and respecting the parents' roles in their kids' lives. Pastor Tim always makes the opposite choice, only contacting the parents at all when he's on some stealth mission to prepare the way for something he and Paige have cooked up. Otherwise he allows her to make far bigger decisions with no input from her parents. And then gets out of it by claiming he thought they knew.

 

I don't know what he'll make of her confession, but my hope is that the pastor's consistent arrogance will keep him quiet, at least. That he'd see this as an irresistible chance to take control of the whole family by leading them to Jesus--probably with a side of subtle threats now that he has power over them. Their entire relationship has consisted of Pastor Tim having the upper hand because he's now in charge of Paige's social life and beliefs and knows about her in ways that usually friends would only know about her, and he has the power to direct her life in ways her parents don't. Unless his plan is to literally take Paige (and Henry?) for himself as his children, I think he'd prefer to be the one in charge of the whole thing.

Edited April 23, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

It's a fourteen-hour drive from Smolensk to Berlin, so I would imagine they flew her into either Poland or East Berlin and then drove her across into West Berlin. But there's no way the logistics work out unless the KGB (reluctantly) went along, presumably after clearing it with the Centre.

 

Yeah, I wondered if that was actually a face-saving move on the Center's part after Philip refused to take no for an answer: "We meant it when we said we can't take Elizabeth to see her mother, but we can bring her to see Elizabeth." It also, counterintuitively, gives the KGB a bit more control of the situation, since Elizabeth can't really make additional demands or cause a scene when she knows she's surrounded by West German authorities.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Dev F

[Anela]

This is where that "only" gets writers into trouble.  She only seems to trust Pastor Tim...or  She seems to trust only Pastor Tim?

 

Now I'm tempted to ask Mum if she posts here. :) 

 

I didn't think his message implied that at all. And the shot of them showed Stan to be having fun. I don't think the relationship is about showing or using Stan as a babysitter, but rather that Henry is a stand-in for his own (mostly absent) son.

 

That's the way I saw it, too.

Boy, given how Stan thinks he's so great at nabbing the right people (and he kind of is, as he was right on about the spy woman this year), I can't wait to see his reaction when he finally finds out about P&E being under his nose this entire time.

 

I'm thinking though that when he does find out it's going to be through a confession, not by him catching them. I'm betting he's going to be needed to initiate a defection storyline somehow (that's how I would write it anyway). And then we could get all these scenes of Stan and Philip having to interact after the truth comes out- that'd be so great, I hope it happens. It would seem too tempting to resist.

Didn't he suspect them of something in the very first episode? I thought he was sneaking around - or was that Phillip or Elizabeth? 

[RedHawk]

That he'd see this as an irresistible chance to take control of the whole family by leading them to Jesus--probably with a side of subtle threats now that he has power over them.

 

 

Tim might see it that way but we know he'd be making a huge mistake. Maybe he'd recall how he first met Philip. He's not going to control Philip, and yes, it would be amazing arrogance to think he could.

 

I wondered a little if the Deputy Atty General's urging Stan on by saying "Hey, you and I know they're all a bunch of bureaucrats" was another "tell them what they want to hear" moment to help forge a connection with Stan. Maybe they're going to let Stan keep working his angle for their own ends, but surely they are going to keep a close watch on him as well. He's not trustworthy. Interesting how his relationship with Gaad has changed. This season it started when he saw Gaad and Aderholt all beat up and said, "They make them tough over there" with just a shade of condescension in it. Clearly he meant "it wouldn't have happened to ME, but don't feel bad".

[Anela]

Stan checked the trunk of their car, in the Pilot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_%28The_Americans%29

Phillip was hiding, not far from him, holding a gun. So Stan's instincts were correct. 

I'm going to have to find a way to watch the first two seasons again. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Anela

[OrientalAmish]

I'm hoping next season that Paige figures out a way to get paid for selling out her serial killing espionage agent parents, and goes off to live in the 90210 with Henry, and 10 million, as they have a mash up prequel with some cultural icons of the '90s, in their preadolescence. Imagine the look on Elizabeth's face, as she gets her 30 minutes of tv a week in Federal lock-up,and the channel is tuned to "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous", showing Paige and Henry climbing out of their Ferrari, in front of their Beverly Hills mansion, as Robin Leach unctuously gives their bios! 

 

 

LOLROFLLMAO

[Mrs peel]

Actually, can Pastor Tim tell anyone about this? Does it work like a confessional, where he can't go to the authorities if someone tells him something in confidence? Honestly, I wonder what his reaction will be- does he confront P&E himself?

As he's not Catholic I think he could easily tell someone; heck most conversations with Catholic Priests aren't confessions anyway.

 

As I watched (and I somehow missed that Paige didn't say they were spies) I envisioned Pastor Tim coming to talk to Phillip and Elizabeth about what Paige said, and everyone deciding Paige is crazy.  So Pastor Tim is safe (relatively) but they put Paige in a psych unit.  I don't see how they keep Paige around and kill Pastor Tim; her next step if anything happens to him is Stan.  Heck, your own local FBI counter-intelligence neighbor across the street!

 

I hadn't even considered whether Martha was alive, but if she is, she'll be devastated by the suicide/murder of her co-worker.  I thought Stan wasn't going to be investigated for the bug or the unsanctioned communications with Oleg because he proved the defector was actually a KGB plant.  So who planted the bug is still an issue until the suicide is found.

 

Stan was an idiot for ever thinking the CIA would spring NIna.  I don't think Nina's cellmate is the "CIA asset", she didn't seem to do that much as she was describing how she got arrested.

 

The Phillip and Sandra (that's her name, right) EST encounter was very well done.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mrs peel

[OrientalAmish]

I was happy when Zinaida got caught....I dunno why?

[TimWil]

I agree 100% with this review, particularly the unnecessary scene with Philip and Sandra:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/tim-goodman-was-americans-season-791003

[OrientalAmish]

re: Martha. I read a recent interview with the show runners, who said that IF Phillip (ever) killed Martha it would not be done off-camera.

Given the intensity of the Martha-Phillip scene last week, this episode needed at least a glimpse of her, doing.... whatever. Phillip's remark to Elizabeth as to Martha's state wasn't enough for me

 

I think the interview you are talking about was on the TVGuide web site.... @ least that is where I read it.... It was on the main page news of the web site...

 

http://www.tvguide.com/news/the-americans-finale-postmortem-joel-fields-paige-martha/.

Edited April 23, 2015 by OrientalAmish

[Shriekingeel]

I'll have to watch again, but the establishing shot just before the grandmother scene looked much more like Russia than Germany.

If, as some have speculated here, the order to keep Stan on came straight from the top, out of "frustration with red tape", I'm wondering if that's the writers' little wink at the future Iran-Contra scandal?

[Umbelina]

I think Martha is alive, as Philip and Elizabeth said.  Plus, I checked weeks ago to see if she was scheduled to appear in last night's episode and she was. I guess her scene was cut out in editing.  Since the writers have provided another culprit for the pen plant, I see no reason why they would have the character turn herself in and especially off camera.  That's juicy stuff that I would think they would want shown. Unless she's going to be playing Clarke, but I don't think that's likely.

 

The scene where Philip rips off his wig was supposed to be in the finale, but the finale ran long and they decided to bump it up to the previous show.  (I read it in an interview, one of the links in the media thread.)

 

As some of you remember, I had a serious problem with this "tell Paige" story from the beginning.  However, the show came through.  All of the things I suspected would happen, DID happen.  I find it totally realistic in every way, but honestly, it's not the most compelling story for me now, although it's turned into a very tense great one!  She is 15.  Barely.  Her parents are spies for a totalitarian country that outlawed religion, and religion is her one hold on "safe."  The same country that has been the enemy of the United States since that wall went up in Germany.  She's cracking.

 

The most compelling story for me right now is that Philip is ALSO cracking.  BAD.  His life of lies, and the things they've had him do, and that he's done are tearing him up inside.  "I feel like shit all the time."  Kimmie.  Analiese.  His daughter.  Martha.  and on and on, including his doubts and anger at his handler.  He went to EST, longing for some kind of honesty, or maybe to help with the sexual nature of his job, and his early training there, when he was probably around Paige's age.  He doesn't take Stan's wife up on it, but you can see the longing for it.  Instead he goes home and tries to talk to Elizabeth, but she needs to watch the Reagan speech.

 

Philip and Elizabeth both went totally off the reservation with this trip.  The KGB told them no.  So they arrange things themselves, using their own passports!  I can't even with that, talk about playing chicken with the KGB.  Worst of all, they go to East Germany!  Spy central.  I thought it was interesting that Gabe said "that you know of" when told the passports raised no (ahem) red flags.  That may play out.  So, their actions caused huge waves back in Moscow, and a fast, rushed, and no doubt not very secure smuggling of Elizabeth's mother to their hotel room.  I mean, WTF?  I can't imagine their bosses in the Kremlin are very happy with them either, as a matter of fact, they are probably seriously pissed, and concerned.  Yes, they are valuable assets, but assets that broke many, many rules, and they could now be seen as completely untrustworthy.

 

Just wow.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Umbelina

[blixie]

 

Phillip was hiding, not far from him, holding a gun. So Stan's instincts were correct.

 

Right, and P/E worked overtime to quell those suspicions one they knew he was FBI. I can't blame him for not being laser focused when he's off the clock, I think that was a big part of S1 arc, trying to relearn that he didn't *have* to be suspicious of everyone, and everything, on guard constantly like he was when he was undercover so he told himself to take the Jennings at face value. Then of course things in his life got crazy because he fell in love with Nina. I have no doubt he'll circle back to those feelings, he's pulling too many threads: zeroing in on Martha as the bug suspect, Zenaida, Oleg, and Nina, and he's connected his partner's murder to the woman who assaulted Gaad/Aderholt. 

 

I think if I had any disappointment in the episodes specifics it's that I really hoped Paige was calling Stan, hee but given the uh leisurely pacing this show favors, I should have known there was no chance of that.

[Chaos Theory]

I agree 100% with this review, particularly the unnecessary scene with Philip and Sandra:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/tim-goodman-was-americans-season-791003

Oh I disagree 100%. The finale was about the cost of a life of lies. The lies are eating away at Phillip. He has literally no one to turn to. He is lying to everyone. When Sandra asks him who he is honest with, he says Elizabeth but even that is a lie. He can't be honest with Elizabeth. He tries but then Reagan happens and he loses any chance of even that.

Paige wants honesty in her life. An honest relationship with her parents and with God, the lies get in the way with both so she does the only thing she knows how to do. She tells the truth. The very dangerous truth.

Stan's truth gets him half of what he wants and the freedom to pursue the other half but it makes him powerful Enemies out of former friends.

Martha and Kimmy's stories aren't necessarily for the season finale and can wait for next season. Their truths can wait.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[RedHawk]

I was happy when Zinaida got caught....I dunno why?

 

 

I was, too. And oh, that ugly face she made when she realized her game was over. HA!

[kikaha]

Phillip was in anguish over killing and framing the IT guy.  Imagine his feelings if he'd killed Martha as well.  Yet we didn't hear him say a word about this to Elizabeth.  I'm almost certain Martha is still alive and well.  Very interested to see her reaction when she learns Gene is dead. 

 

I expect Pastor Tim to take Paige seriously.  She is level-headed, honest, and not given to flights of fancy.  P&E face some serious damage control here.

[John S]

So Paige told the pastor that her parents are liars and aren't Americans - they're Russians.

If he and his wife are killed, then Paige blames her parents, whether they did it or not. She never speaks to them ever again.

If he is a Soviet, then Paige is all messed up.

If her parents claim that she is now mentally unhinged, and they put her in a mental institution, then she hates her parents for the rest of her life.

I don't see any happy endings for her at this point. She MIGHT even dare them to shoot her.

[OrientalAmish]

I was, too. And oh, that ugly face she made when she realized her game was over. HA

 

 

The expression on her face when she got caught was the reason alone of why I was happy it happened....God, I wanted to punch her in the face when she was looking all smug + shit as if she was like, "What excuse me?!"

 

I had to edit my reply because I realized she was only playing the U.S. not both countries....

Edited April 23, 2015 by OrientalAmish

[Umbelina]

Phillip was in anguish over killing and framing the IT guy.  Imagine his feelings if he'd killed Martha as well.  Yet we didn't hear him say a word about this to Elizabeth.  I'm almost certain Martha is still alive and well.  Very interested to see her reaction when she learns Gene is dead. 

 

I expect Pastor Tim to take Paige seriously.  She is level-headed, honest, and not given to flights of fancy.  P&E face some serious damage control here.

 

He did tell Elizabeth, and she was the one to tell him he better go prepare Martha for this news.  She said "I don't think you are seeing things clearly."

 

It's just one more example of Philip breaking down.  He's a mess.

[Blakeston]

As he's not Catholic I think he could easily tell someone; heck most conversations with Catholic Priests aren't confessions anyway.

 

The same rules that apply to a Catholic priest could apply to him. Depending on how his church feels about confidentiality, he might be bound by church rules not to violate Paige's trust.

 

And legally, him not being Catholic isn't an issue - confessional privilege isn't just for Catholic clergy. (But because Philip and Elizabeth weren't the ones who confided in him, what Paige said could potentially be used as evidence against them.)

[Cara]

The same rules that apply to a Catholic priest could apply to him. Depending on how his church feels about confidentiality, he might be bound by church rules not to violate Paige's trust.

Assuming he believes her he might feel that people's lives at stake. So ethically that might be more important to him than keeping her confidence.... Just one way things might go.

[ruby24]

I think he's going to believe her. He's probably going to think back to that creepy moment when Philip confronted him in the middle of the night wearing black gloves and think "oh shit, I could have been dead."

 

Just out of curiosity, if Philip were to defect, what kind of a deal could he get? Would he actually be let off the hook for so many murders if he helps them to get at other spies, like Elizabeth, Gabriel, etc?

Edited April 23, 2015 by ruby24

[bluebonnet]

I don't think there's any reason for Pastor Tim not to believe Paige.  But I also don't think there's any reason for Pastor Tim to be concerned.  Lying about one's ethnicity isn't really evil.  

[John S]

I think he's going to believe her. He's probably going to think back to that creepy moment when Philip confronted him in the middle of the night wearing black gloves and think "oh shit, I could have been dead."

 

Just out of curiosity, if Philip were to defect, what kind of a deal could he get? Would he actually be let off the hook for so many murders if he helps them to get at other spies, like Elizabeth, Gabriel, etc?

That's up to the people making the deal.

[PinkRibbons]

I was happy when Zinaida got caught....I dunno why?

 

For me it was seeing this slightly airheaded silly woman go into badass mode. I have a weird amount of respect for Zinaida; she played her part very very well. I'll bet she was a lot more dangerous than we'll ever see.

[TV Anonymous]

I'm glad Stan got a win tonight.

 

I was getting really tired of how the show kept presenting him as the ultimate sadsack: lost his wife, lost his lover, lost his partner, estranged from his son, kind of crappy at his job, pathetically mooning over women he can't have (Sandra/Nina), and mooching home-cooked dinners off the Jennings.

 

He needed a win.

 

YMMV of course, but I feel Stan is the one who gets away with almost everything and whatever he does pretty much he does with impunity.

 

1. Nina was a rather innocent staffer at the rezidentura except for skimming some money and Stan turned her for his benefits.

2. After turning Nina, Stan followed where his penis wanted to go and got laid with her.

3. To cover his track Stan killed Vlad, Nina's friend and nothing happened to him.

4. When the time came that Nina needed his help he did not do anything.

5. Now that his marriage is in trouble Stan lusts for Nina to come back.

 

In all facets of Nina-Stan relationship (professional, personal and sexual), Stan is the Karma Houdini.

 

In another note, I may be slow, but what is the significance of March 8th 1983?

[John S]

YMMV of course, but I feel Stan is the one who gets away with almost everything and whatever he does pretty much he does with impunity.

 

1. Nina was a rather innocent staffer at the rezidentura except for skimming some money and Stan turned her for his benefits.

2. After turning Nina, Stan followed where his penis wanted to go and got laid with her.

3. To cover his track Stan killed Vlad, Nina's friend and nothing happened to him.

4. When the time came that Nina needed his help he did not do anything.

5. Now that his marriage is in trouble Stan lusts for Nina to come back.

 

In all facets of Nina-Stan relationship (professional, personal and sexual), Stan is the Karma Houdini.

 

In another note, I may be slow, but what is the significance of March 8th 1983?

It was the day when President Reagan said that the Soviet Union was the "Evil Empire". I'm sure you saw Elizabeth glued to the TV screen while Paige was in the bedroom crying to the pastor on the phone.

[Addlepated]

There's some great, subtle camera work in the ending scene.  Phillip tries to vocalize his feelings to Elizabeth, who is distracted by the highlights of Reagan's speech.  As Elizabeth is horrified and infuriated by Reagan's "Evil Empire" language, she grows larger in the screen, her resolve locked in, and Phillip recedes in the background, growing smaller, looking broken.

 

I think it really sets up next season well.

[lucindabelle]

Well, Paige can't be trusted either.  She has gone behind her parents' back's and done something that she promised she would not do.  I'm just not that concerned with Paige's sensibilities at this point.  Sometimes the survival of the family depends on young people to do very heroic acts.  Throughout history, teens have had to make enormous sacrifices, take up a weapon, walk across an entire country, not eat for weeks, witness their loved ones' death, etc. to protect their family.  IMO, Page didn't really try to protect hers.

 

Yes. I do not see The Greatness of Paige. I see a little girl who's gone off the deep end with religion, with an acquaintance that she's known what, a year? favoring him instead of her parents... it doesn't even ring true to me. It would be different if he'd been her pastor since she was little. Also calling his wife "Alice?" seems quite disrespectful to me.

Are people worthy of protection, by reason of DNA, when they spend nearly your entire life lying to you about the most fundamental things, while risking that you will end up being raised by strangers or in an institutional setting? Procreating does not in and of itself render someone worthy of protection. Elizabeth and Phillip are hideous parents. They deserve nothing.

 

I could not disagree more. Philip and Elizabeth raised Paige from infancy and have raised a girl who is safe, fed, loved, doing well in school. It is not mere DNA and I find the idea of that a little strange given the circumstances. They didn't put her in an orphanage. They've been ehr parents her whole life. Her suden shift of loyalty doesn't ring the slightest bit true to me.

 

 

Even then, it's hard to argue that she should be beholden to this.  She didn't consent to this life.  Her parents chose in long before she was born.  She's also not being told all of the information she needs to make an informed decision.  She doesn't know that her parents are murderers (and I still don't know why knowing they are spies immediately suggests they are murderers, it's not like Matthew would immediately think his own father is a murderer just because he's FBI), she doesn't know that people's lives are in actual danger, including her own, if she discusses this thing.  The worst thing that can happen, as she's been told, is jail for P & E.  But even then, that doesn't mean that Paige has to consent to lie about who she is.  

 

I don't know, I guess I just can't condemn a child who just needs someone to talk to, especially when P & E allowed something like the church to get their disgusting claws into her.  They should have been directing her to have friends her own age and be involved in appropriate activities instead of hanging out with a creepy middle aged man who touts fairy tales as though it's reality.  Or, they shouldn't have told her the truth in a moment where she clearly just wanted to be told that she's loved and that she matters.  

 

I can and do condemn her. Her decision to value her own sense of What Is Right above the safety of the two people who brought her up, without talking to them at any length about it, is selfish in the extreme. Paige doesn't know what we know re Elizabeth's murders etc.

Oh, I think it would be credible if Paige continued to love her parents; children tend to do that. I just think it is inaccurate to imply that Paige has any rational moral obligation to protect her parents. I also think it is problematic to say a parent has been "perfectly loving" in any context, when, on a daily basis, for years, the parent has willingly placed the child in significant physical danger, to pursue the parent's ideological cause, in any context but the most dire imaginable, such as Jews in the Holocaust. 

 

 

Please explain what you mean by "Jews in the Holocaust." I'm at a loss.

Are you suggesting Jews in the Holocaust didn't love their children? Or put them in danger by being Jewish, and should have converted?

Are you saying something about Nazis? Because there's zero evidence that the children of Nazis didn't love their parents.

if we want to go religious on this, Jesus was the one who said hate the sin, not the sinner.

Paige's parents have loved her, that much is pretty obvious in the context of the show, regardless of whether you approve of their actions or not.

[Anela]

Right, and P/E worked overtime to quell those suspicions one they knew he was FBI. I can't blame him for not being laser focused when he's off the clock, I think that was a big part of S1 arc, trying to relearn that he didn't *have* to be suspicious of everyone, and everything, on guard constantly like he was when he was undercover so he told himself to take the Jennings at face value. Then of course things in his life got crazy because he fell in love with Nina. I have no doubt he'll circle back to those feelings, he's pulling too many threads: zeroing in on Martha as the bug suspect, Zenaida, Oleg, and Nina, and he's connected his partner's murder to the woman who assaulted Gaad/Aderholt. 

 

I think if I had any disappointment in the episodes specifics it's that I really hoped Paige was calling Stan, hee but given the uh leisurely pacing this show favors, I should have known there was no chance of that.

I hoped she was calling Stan, as well.