S03.E12: I Am Abassin Zadran

[SunnyBeBe]

I think that Martha can be saved with some creative writing.  The FBI may be intent on solving the placed pen, but, if they are handed another culprit, then case is solved.  I'm not sure why Philip hasn't thought of it, except that he seems to follow orders from the Centre and not come up with plans himself.  But, framing someone else for the pen could take the heat off Martha.  I'm not sure why this wouldn't have been the first plan of action, really.  Oh, then we wouldn't get  to see all this drama with Martha.  I get it.  

[beeble]

I can't wait for the wacky sitcom spin-off about the Rezidentura workers during the Cold War: The Rez!

 

If an FBI secretary goes missing or shows up dead right after a bug is found in the director's office, shit will go down. "Clark" must proceed with caution. 

[SmoothCriminal]

Born in 1990. BORN in 1990 !!! :-)

I just want to thank you for this and give you some applause. Made me smile, laugh a bit, think "omg i am old" because I was 22 in 1986 and just all around WOW factor :-) Really lightens things up while also hitting home how different things were and not all that long ago.

Again, i'm so f'ing old. Good lord. Thanks again :-)

You should consider yourself lucky. My mom was born in 1959 and I really envy her. Everytime I ask my mom's generation about their youth, the answer is always the same: relaxed, layed back, no worries about the future, jobs were available everywhere... I just love the 60s, 70s and most especially the 80s: The fashion, the music and that people weren't so over reliant on technology. It's just not like that anymore.

And yes it's funny how fast times change. I was in Moscow a couple of years back. The young Russians I talked to weren't any different than young Germans my age. To them, Russia is just Russia and not the Soviet Union anymore. Just as for me, Germany is Germany, there is no East or West. That kind of thinking is foreign to us. At least, these were my impressions. And that only took one generation. Let's just hope an old Soviet guy named Putin doesn't destroy all of that in the future!

[Bannon]

I can't wait for the wacky sitcom spin-off about the Rezidentura workers during the Cold War: The Rez!

 

If an FBI secretary goes missing or shows up dead right after a bug is found in the director's office, shit will go down. "Clark" must proceed with caution. 

This show is so far past credible behavior in response to observed phenomena, by the FBI and CIA, that at this point there is almost nothing that could be written which would be a step too far.

[txhorns79]

You should consider yourself lucky. My mom was born in 1959 and I really envy her. Everytime I ask my mom's generation about their youth, the answer is always the same: relaxed, layed back, no worries about the future, jobs were available everywhere... I just love the 60s, 70s and most especially the 80s: The fashion, the music and that people weren't so over reliant on technology. It's just not like that anymore.

 

I think that's a pretty romanticized version of what happened.  There are plenty of people who struggled through those time periods.  You had real civil rights struggles, Vietnam, etc. in the 60s.  Inflation was terrible and the economy was stagnant throughout the 1970s.  I will say I don't find the 80s terrible!      

 

I'm not sure why Philip hasn't thought of it, except that he seems to follow orders from the Centre and not come up with plans himself.  But, framing someone else for the pen could take the heat off Martha.  I'm not sure why this wouldn't have been the first plan of action, really.  Oh, then we wouldn't get  to see all this drama with Martha.  I get it.

 

  That plan doesn't solve his problem with Martha.  I can't imagine she'd go along with the idea that an innocent person would be sacrificed on her behalf, and I would think it would make her feel even more guilty and terrified. 

[ToastnBacon]

  

ROTFL!!

 

On the podcast there was some interesting references to other parts of the Clark disguise that I find kind of fascinating. Like he wears a lip thinner and I know he's also got some deeper lines drawn in. As someone pointed out elsewhere, she thought Clark was a guy wearing a toupee to look younger and he's actually a younger guy trying to look older.

This is the aspect of the show that bugs me the most, the dumb disguises. I can see wearing one for a brief encounter, or while on a surveillance mission, but not for prolonged contact with an individual.

Even the most expert and expensively applied disguise won't hold up to prolonged scrutiny. Especially in the Martha and Clark scenario. They are having Kama Sutra sex and spending all night in bed together, that damn wig would have fallen off 1000 times by now.

I don't care how many bobby pins he clips it to his head with. I can suspend disbelief to enjoy the show, but not on the Clark disguise. It bugs the crap out of me.

Lovestruck Martha never once jumped into the shower with Clark or ran her fingers through his hair?

Yes, I know she mentioned the toupee, but it would have came up more than once.

Lip liner? That and any other cosmetics would set off a tremendous amount of questions, even in a goofy love-blinded Martha.

Maybe that is why so many of us identify with Martha. We have all been forced to be idiots with her.

[Bannon]

This is the aspect of the show that bugs me the most, the dumb disguises. I can see wearing one for a brief encounter, or while on a surveillance mission, but not for prolonged contact with an individual.

Even the most expert and expensively applied disguise won't hold up to prolonged scrutiny. Especially in the Martha and Clark scenario. They are having Kama Sutra sex and spending all night in bed together, that damn wig would have fallen off 1000 times by now.

I don't care how many bobby pins he clips it to his head with. I can suspend disbelief to enjoy the show, but not on the Clark disguise. It bugs the crap out of me.

Lovestruck Martha never once jumped into the shower with Clark or ran her fingers through his hair?

Yes, I know she mentioned the toupee, but it would have came up more than once.

Lip liner? That and any other cosmetics would set off a tremendous amount of questions, even in a goofy love-blinded Martha.

Maybe that is why so many of us identify with Martha. We have all been forced to be idiots with her.

This is why this show bugs me so much; the squandered opportunity, via sheer laziness. The premise is brilliant, and some of the themes explored are quite interesting, but it seems like nearly every episode is just littered with examples where the writers almost insult the viewers, by asking them to buy into tremendously stupid developments. Look, I know hyperrealism wouldn't make much of a show, and every show, of even the highest quality departs from realism when need be. No, Walter White couldn't walk ouf of a drug house filled with violent criminals, by tossing some explosive chemicals on the floor. If a U.S. Marshal's offce had as many shooting incidents as the one near Harlan County, KY, it would be a giant national news story.On this show, however,  somebody not named Elizabeth or Phillip, or their handlers, acts like a blithering idiot, week in and week out. It's almost at an Austin Powers level, and it doesn't have to be this way.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bannon

[Bannon]

I tend to view it through the context of the time and place.  Phillip and Elizabeth aren't run of the mill Soviet citizens.  They are in their position because they are viewed as true believers to the cause.  I don't approve of what they do, but I understand why they do it, and why they think the way they do.  I don't think that is "cutting them slack" so much as recognizing it's not a black and white situation.   

Oh, I understand why they behave in the manner they do. To me, it is the best written element of the show. For years, I used to buy into the argument put forth, in defense of some of the people who founded this country, that it was somehow unfair to judge the supporters of slavery harshly,,because their behavior needed to be viewed through the context of time and place. Over time, however, I began to recognize that there were plenty of people in that exact same context, who were able to plainly recognize slavery for it's nature, and that it was not unreasonable to think that the likes of Jefferson had the abiity to do the same. I tend to view those that supported the Soviet state in the same way    

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

Their cause is a moral one in their eyes...and probably in the eyes of their countrymen.  It may not be moral in the eyes of someone from an enemy country or a country not involved. One's beliefs and judgments regarding morality are generally tied to cultural experiences.   The crimes against humanity that spies may commit are not much different than those of the military...ours or someone else's.  Just my opinion....

 

 

 

I was thinking about the way they come across today in this type of context actually--like, do they come across as people genuinely making moral decisions that can be defended? And I think they do. Because neither of them, for instance, seem intent on world domination. They aren't driven by a desire to subjugate Americans or enslave them or have everyone acknowledge Soviet superiority. They see their struggle as helping the underdog who are oppressed by other people, and they seem to genuinely do that when they help people like Ncgobo and Lucia. They weren't genuine anti-war and civil rights activists in the American sense but they also seem to genuinely agree with the values of them.

 

Even when they're directly defending the Soviet Union they come across as a standard person defending their home against perceived aggressors--just as the US saw itself. So I don't really see them teaching horrible ethics to their kids, despite me thinking they're wrong about the Soviet system and think it's oppressive. (And Philip, of course, is wholly against manipulating or pressuring Paige to join them in this fight for many reasons.) 

 

So they actually don't come across to me as somebody supporting slavery and teaching their kids to do the same. Paige and Henry's upbringing is not at all like a couple of kids on a plantation being taught to treat many of the people they know as less than human. 

 

That's what that group reminds me of, a 70s congregation having be-ins and "getting high on Jesus".

 

 

But this wasn't a be-in or a retreat for the youth group. It's just Paige wanting to sleepover at a couple's house instead of her own.

 

Even the most expert and expensively applied disguise won't hold up to prolonged scrutiny. Especially in the Martha and Clark scenario. They are having Kama Sutra sex and spending all night in bed together, that damn wig would have fallen off 1000 times by now.

 

 

 

I agree about the disguises with prolonged contact--the Clark disguise was supposed to be a one-off and then they were stuck with it. But why would a wig held on with tons of pins and glue fly off during sex? Also people actually overlook and accept a ton of stuff that seems obviously false to outsiders. There's lots of stories of con men where people ignore blatantly hilarious proof that they're lying. Like a family accepting that their blue-eyed, teenage Texas son developed broken English, a French accent, dark eyes and male pattern baldness after a couple of years away. If Martha sees anything like make-up she chalks it up to Clark's vanity, not cheesy disguise. I have no idea what a lip thinner looks like, but it might not look like make-up. If Martha was suspicious she wouldn't have lasted. It's a step by step process.

 

On the question of whether you're not being a parent at all, like Stan, like I said, I just really like stories where people try and sometimes fail to balance different responsibilities. I think the reality for most people is that your parent is your parent just as your childhood is your childhood, however they pan out. On one extreme people can indeed abandon the task to the point where the kid simply feels like they don't have that relationship at least until they repair it or else, like Stan and Matthew, but it's also in many ways like a marriage in that the relationship is what the individual people in it make it.

 

Look at Elizabeth and her mother, after all. This woman is a huge influence on her life. She loves her fiercely and seems loved in return. And yet she also pretty blatantly seemed to tell her that she couldn't love someone who betrayed the Communist cause and pushed her into the life she has now without blinking. It's very reasonable to say she was a terrible mother for these things, but I don't think that really describes the relationship that exists between them.

Edited April 17, 2015 by maraleia
removed TJ reference

[SunnyBeBe]

People who are in love or as desperate for love as Martha, ignore a lot of things about their love interest. They ignore alcohol and drug abuse, anger issues, lies, baggage, etc.  That happens all the time in the real world.  Eventually, you see the real person you are married to, warts and all.  So, I don't think Martha is all that different.  She knew Clarke wore a hair piece and guessed he was balding.  She chose not to make a big deal out of it.   They didn't have a lot of time together so why spoil it asking lots of personal questions about his grooming habits?  Martha may be gullible, but there are women today who marry serial killers who are in prison.  She's not that unique.   

[spaceghostess]

I think she has about two minutes left to enjoy that realization. 

 

She said it herself.  The FBI will find out who planted the bug.  She knows it.  Phillip knows it.  The KGB cannot allow the FBI to take Martha into custody and question her. 

 

I guess one option is to spirit her out of the US, and behind the Iron Curtain.  A whole lot of expense and risk, both ongoing without end, for someone who does not believe in their cause.  Who -- out of shame, anger or betrayal -- might still find a way to get her real story to the attention of US agents. 

 

Permanently silencing her solves all these problems.  It puts the KGB in control of events.  They can sanitize her apartment... plant false DNA and fingerprints... leave phony photos... and of course write her suicide note.  I've been expecting this ever since they found the bug.  One more episode to see how things unfold.  

 

Martha knew 'Clark' was a phony.  She knew he didn't work for the US government -- which almost certainly made him a spy.  She knew he had suckered her into feeding him classified info vital to US interests.  Given all that, I'm real, real surprised she told him her plans to leave.  If I'm right, it will ultimately prove to be a fatal mistake. 

She's a goner, for sure. As others have mentioned, Philip revealing his true identity was/is Martha's death knell. I was also surprised she decided to say goodbye in person. She severely underestimated the strength of their "relationship" if she thought she'd leave that room alive. Had she known that "Clark" had a whole other life with a spy spouse and kids, maybe she'd have done what I'd have done: Disappeared herself, leaving behind everything except cash.

[ToastnBacon]

She's a goner, for sure. As others have mentioned, Philip revealing his true identity was/is Martha's death knell. I was also surprised she decided to say goodbye in person. She severely underestimated the strength of their "relationship" if she thought she'd leave that room alive. Had she known that "Clark" had a whole other life with a spy spouse and kids, maybe she'd have done what I'd have done: Disappeared herself, leaving behind everything except cash.

Maybe I'm cruel, but I would love to see Martha find out about Phillip's wife and kids somehow.

I imagining the look on her face, and it is pretty damn funny.

[Bannon]

If Philip and Elizabeth were to endorse Stalin wiping out millions of people, I'd feel differently.

There is nothing we've seen in Elizabeth yet that would make it a surprise that she supported Stalin's wholesale slaughter. The official party position after Khruschev's secret speech was that Stalin was wrong in persecuting fellow communists, but there was never any acknowledgement, for instance, that the slaughter of millions of middle class farmers in Ukraine  was wrong.

[spaceghostess]

Maybe I'm cruel, but I would love to see Martha find out about Phillip's wife and kids somehow.

I imagining the look on her face, and it is pretty damn funny.

It crossed my mind several times over the course of this show that if Martha ever did find out about Elizabeth, she'd wig out completely (sorry) and put that gun of hers to good use.

[Helena Dax]

My mind made the "Wait, Martha, I'm hotter than you think" joke too, but despite this, that scene was chilling. What Philip`did, I just can't see how can it mean something good for her. Because until that moment, I think she believed Clark was real. Maybe with another name, but real. And now she knows she was wrong about that too. The man she married doesn't even exist. I'm afraid Philip's going to kill her.

 

While I've always thought Paige has a bratty side, I understand her reactions to her parents' secret. It's a shock and of course you don't think clearly when  you're in shock. You don't think your little brother's going to hear your screams. You're not even sure your parents still have power to ground you. 

 

Otoh, I didn't know what to think about Pastor Tim until now, but now I'm sure there's something wrong with him. And his wife. I'm not saying they're sexual predators or anything like that, but I see a religious cult in their future. If they live long enough. 

 

The trip to Russia could be a good  idea on a personal level -it could help Paige to understand her parents  better-, but I don't think it'll turn Paige into a communist at all. Quite the opposite. 

 

That line about the hamburguers and the choices made sense to me. I think Gabriel and Claudia were thinking it was somehow childish. Like "look at  these Americans, thinking they're  free because they have a lot of  options in  their menus and their shops; they don't understand what real freedom is, poor things".

[sistermagpie]

Because until that moment, I think she believed Clark was real. Maybe with another name, but real. And now she knows she was wrong about that too. The man she married doesn't even exist. I'm afraid Philip's going to kill her.

 

 

It's interesting to try to imagine exactly how Martha sees this. I was thinking about how in this ep Clark gets peeled back more and more until he's literally peeling off his face. Like, first there's Stan at her door, which makes her feel like they're closing in. She can't get in touch with Clark like he's a normal person.

 

Then imagine how scary the next day would be when Hans showed up? She'd always thought Clark was just this nebbishy bureaucrat who worked long hours. Then she finds out he's not working for the people he said--but that's not necessarily a different person totally. It's like finding out the guy you thought was a legit businessman was a con artist or a crook instead. Shocking, but you can make an adjustment to the original guy.

 

Now suddenly Clark comes with mysterious foreigners who drive up on the street and drive her to a hidden location--Clark's now starting to send out tendrils to shadowy networks of people that she didn't want to think about before (maybe she still thinks his family is real at this point).

 

So she just wants to back away, and she still basically trusts that Clark is Clark because she's comfortable telling him she's leaving and just firmly telling him no when he wants her to stay. Until he rips off the mask and she doesn't know who the hell she's dealing with. 

[txhorns79]

So she just wants to back away, and she still basically trusts that Clark is Clark because she's comfortable telling him she's leaving and just firmly telling him no when he wants her to stay. Until he rips off the mask and she doesn't know who the hell she's dealing with.

 

I think her terrified reaction to his taking off the wig said it all.  She's scared out of her mind, and realizes this could be the end.   

[sistermagpie]

I think her terrified reaction to his taking off the wig said it all.  She's scared out of her mind, and realizes this could be the end.

 

 

It reminded me of those Howling movies in the 80s when everyone was into the new werewolf effects. On the one hand it was cool to watch the transformation, otoh you had to think, "Stop admiring the effects and run, you idiot! You could be in your car by the time the fingernails stop growing!" 

[Crazy8]

I really don't think this is the end for Martha. I could be wrong, but I think Philip is handling her the same way he and Elizabeth handled Paige: with the truth. She's not stupid. She knows she's screwed even if she hands herself in and confesses to planting the bug and failing to declare she got married. I do believe he's developed feelings for her too, but above that it's in his interest to convince her to hold her nerve.

Again something was off with Pastor Tim and his wife. It might be crazy, but him and his wife being CIA still isn't off the table for me. Once again Stan emphasised how dangerous the Russian illegals program is and I don't think it's too much of a stretch for them to want to turn the daughter of one of them rather than bringing them in.

Great scene between 'Granny' and Gabriel. So many layers to that conversation.

I think the whole point of the Afghan Generals storyline was to point out that the US actually got into bed with these people in the 80's in a 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' kind of way. There are no good guys in this show.

[sistermagpie]

Again something was off with Pastor Tim and his wife. It might be crazy, but him and his wife being CIA still isn't off the table for me. Once again Stan emphasised how dangerous the Russian illegals program is and I don't think it's too much of a stretch for them to want to turn the daughter of one of them rather than bringing them in.

 

 

But the CIA doesn't have to turn the daughter of Illegals. She's already turned. She's an American. Why would they have an agent being a fake pastor running a church for years on the off-chance that the daughter of Illegals could be brought in and would like it enough to get really into it? And if the program is so dangerous why is he provoking them mildly instead of arresting them? 

Edited April 17, 2015 by sistermagpie

[CarobCake]

My mind made the "Wait, Martha, I'm hotter than you think" joke too, but despite this, that scene was chilling. What Philip`did, I just can't see how can it mean something good for her. Because until that moment, I think she believed Clark was real. Maybe with another name, but real. And now she knows she was wrong about that too. The man she married doesn't even exist. I'm afraid Philip's going to kill her.

 

While I've always thought Paige has a bratty side, I understand her reactions to her parents' secret. It's a shock and of course you don't think clearly when  you're in shock. You don't think your little brother's going to hear your screams. You're not even sure your parents still have power to ground you. 

 

Otoh, I didn't know what to think about Pastor Tim until now, but now I'm sure there's something wrong with him. And his wife. I'm not saying they're sexual predators or anything like that, but I see a religious cult in their future. If they live long enough. 

 

The trip to Russia could be a good  idea on a personal level -it could help Paige to understand her parents  better-, but I don't think it'll turn Paige into a communist at all. Quite the opposite. 

 

That line about the hamburguers and the choices made sense to me. I think Gabriel and Claudia were thinking it was somehow childish. Like "look at  these Americans, thinking they're  free because they have a lot of  options in  their menus and their shops; they don't understand what real freedom is, poor things".

 

The hamburguers line made me laugh out loud because when I lived in the US back during my teenage years it became one of the anedoctes I would tell people, "then you go to a restaurant, and you have to choose your dish, than you have to choose your salad, then the dressing, then how cooked you want your meat, then your side dish, then...." when you know, where I'm from you can point at something at the menu and order and that's that... but it probably meant what you said heh.

When Philip took off the wig I thought it was one last attempt to get her on board, as in... look, I'm showing you who I am. But you guys are probably right and she's doomed.

I can't decide if I think we should open a political thread. On the one hand I love political debates. On the other it sounds a lot like the kind of threads that end up closed by moderators because people get too worked up over it...

 

[fauxphysician]

Late to the discussion, but firmly entrenched in the "Martha is a Goner" camp. Why would they let her live?( even if Phillip feels a slight pang of affection). She no longer has any value. Having Hans drive her to meet Phillip was strictly to access whether or not her/ their cover was blown, and Phillip claiming to be working on an escape plan was just an attempt to chill her out some.( Back in the Pilot, remember the elaborate ruse to "comfort" the unsuspecting widow of their fallen colleague, until arrangements were in place to "relocate" her and her infant?  Being the child of an agent didn't spare them from death  ). And with Stan sniffing around now, she's become a major liability.

   I don't think anyone has addressed this yet-- what on earth do they tell Henry is the destination/purpose of Elizabeth's and Paige's trip? It's got to be something he'll think is dull or boring, and if he mentions it won't raise (Stan's) suspicions. It's also touchy, because it forces Paige to be a party to her parents lying to her Brother!

[Crazy8]

But the CIA doesn't have to turn the daughter of Illegals. She's already turned. She's an American. Why would they have an agent being a fake pastor running a church for years on the off-chance that the daughter of Illegals could be brought in and would like it enough to get really into it? And if the program is so dangerous why is he provoking them mildly instead of arresting them?

Because if her parents really bring her into the fold, Paige is a way of finding out what the Center is up to for the foreseeable future. That's far more valuable than simply arresting two spies who can be replaced and who are trained not to give anything up under interrogation. I think it's possible that the CIA are thinking as long-term as the Center is.

Aside from all that, I always thought the way Paige was 'recruited' by the Church was way too convenient.

[Blakeston]

There is nothing we've seen in Elizabeth yet that would make it a surprise that she supported Stalin's wholesale slaughter. The official party position after Khruschev's secret speech was that Stalin was wrong in persecuting fellow communists, but there was never any acknowledgement, for instance, that the slaughter of millions of middle class farmers in Ukraine  was wrong.

For some reason, I didn't see this comment until now.

 

As crazy as Elizabeth is, I can't see Elizabeth standing up for murdering millions of innocents. Trying to cover it up after the fact, maybe, but not embracing it. I also don't think she would approve of Stalin arresting family members of deserters, considering that she and her mother could have been arrested.

[Penman61]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Phillip wanted to kill that afghan guy while they talked to him in the car?

Elizabeth's thought ballon was "I think we have a suitcase in the trunk..."

Edited April 17, 2015 by Penman61

[RedHawk]

When Philip took off the wig I thought it was one last attempt to get her on board, as in... look, I'm showing you who I am.

That was my first impression, and I'm going to stick with it. I believe Philip wants to do whatever he can to avoid killing Martha. It's going to be very interesting to see what his plan is.

[sistermagpie]

Because if her parents really bring her into the fold, Paige is a way of finding out what the Center is up to for the foreseeable future. That's far more valuable than simply arresting two spies who can be replaced and who are trained not to give anything up under interrogation. I think it's possible that the CIA are thinking as long-term as the Center is.

Aside from all that, I always thought the way Paige was 'recruited' by the Church was way too convenient.

 

 

But it's not at all more valuable than arresting the two spies. She's a kid. There's no reason to think she's got inside intel on what missions her parents are running for the KGB. The CIA would know that better than anyone. The FBI does not consider Illegals impossible to crack--Aderholdt's already talked about one who did, plus they have Timoshev.

 

There's really nothing convenient about Paige getting recruited by the church. That's how churches work. Converts invite anyone they meet to them--especially kids who think their parents are weird and don't understand--and the kids who find something there stay. Anybody Paige met and became friends with would have been equally convenient. This particular church seems equally anti-CIA as it is anti-KGB.

Edited April 17, 2015 by sistermagpie

[bluebonnet]

I do think Martha is a goner.  But I also think that Martha would be a valuable ally to the Jenner family.  Martha has wanted children.  She wants family.  She is friends with Elizabeth, even if she thinks E is Clarke's sister.  P & E may find themselves in a position in the future of needing someone to take the kids for whatever reason.  Martha might make an ideal temporary guardian.  Of course, this is assuming that they are able to take the suspicion off her with the bugged pen.  Think about it, the Center wouldn't have reason to think P & E would use Martha for this purpose.  Plus, they have Hans, someone well-trained who crushes on Elizabeth that could do the part of helping them disappear.  

 

ETA: The church.  It would be too complicated and coincidental for the church to be some CIA ring.  There is something creepy about the church.  I mean, creepy beyond the typical gross factor involved with religions and churches.  In this case, the creep factor seems to rest with Pastor Tim and his wife.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by bluebonnet

[John S]

I do think Martha is a goner.  But I also think that Martha would be a valuable ally to the Jenner family.  Martha has wanted children.  She wants family.  She is friends with Elizabeth, even if she thinks E is Clarke's sister.  P & E may find themselves in a position in the future of needing someone to take the kids for whatever reason.  Martha might make an ideal temporary guardian.  Of course, this is assuming that they are able to take the suspicion off her with the bugged pen.  Think about it, the Center wouldn't have reason to think P & E would use Martha for this purpose.  Plus, they have Hans, someone well-trained who crushes on Elizabeth that could do the part of helping them disappear.  

 

ETA: The church.  It would be too complicated and coincidental for the church to be some CIA ring.  There is something creepy about the church.  I mean, creepy beyond the typical gross factor involved with religions and churches.  In this case, the creep factor seems to rest with Pastor Tim and his wife.  

Who would they tell Paige and Henry that she is - their "Aunt" Martha?

Whoever they tell Paige who she is, Paige isn't going to believe them.

[CarobCake]

Are you saying that Democrats and Republicans would argue about who should be the next President? - LOL.

No, that would be the little leagues. We're talking here about the ethics and morals of capitalism vs comunism or the eviliness of totalitarian systems and such. Now that I'm describing it, I think it would be loads of fun... but you know, the kind of threads that gets closed.

 

On another subject, whatever happened to Kimmy? When did we last see her?

Edited April 17, 2015 by luvenan

[bluebonnet]

Who would they tell Paige and Henry that she is - their "Aunt" Martha?

Whoever they tell Paige who she is, Paige isn't going to believe them.

If they are leaving their kids with Martha, one would think it would be because they are in serious danger.  They can tell Paige the truth, to a point.  "We're in danger, this is a woman we know, she will keep you safe."  They'd likely just tell Henry a typical lie, like she's a cousin or something.  

[sistermagpie]

On another subject, whatever happened to Kimmy? When did we last see her?

 

 

When Philip picked her up drunk at a party. That same night he switched out the tapes in the bug and learned that the Afghan delegation was coming. Paige significantly noticed the phone call and Philip running out and it motivated her more to confront them.

 

So Kimmie's still bein' Kimmie, supplying intel and thinking Jim's the only one who really cares about her.

[Helena Dax]

I do think Martha is a goner.  But I also think that Martha would be a valuable ally to the Jenner family.  Martha has wanted children.  She wants family.  She is friends with Elizabeth, even if she thinks E is Clarke's sister.  P & E may find themselves in a position in the future of needing someone to take the kids for whatever reason.  Martha might make an ideal temporary guardian.  Of course, this is assuming that they are able to take the suspicion off her with the bugged pen.  Think about it, the Center wouldn't have reason to think P & E would use Martha for this purpose.  Plus, they have Hans, someone well-trained who crushes on Elizabeth that could do the part of helping them disappear.  

 

ETA: The church.  It would be too complicated and coincidental for the church to be some CIA ring.  There is something creepy about the church.  I mean, creepy beyond the typical gross factor involved with religions and churches.  In this case, the creep factor seems to rest with Pastor Tim and his wife.  

 

If Martha found out about Elizabeth and the kids, I think she'd try to kill Philip herself with her own bare hands.

[maraleia]

I've deleted a number of either off-topic political posts or posts where people are calling out other posters. If this continues then there will be warnings so knock it off.

[CarobCake]

When Philip picked her up drunk at a party. That same night he switched out the tapes in the bug and learned that the Afghan delegation was coming. Paige significantly noticed the phone call and Philip running out and it motivated her more to confront them.

 

So Kimmie's still bein' Kimmie, supplying intel and thinking Jim's the only one who really cares about her.

Ah so that's what that tape was... I'm having a little trouble following all the missions this season. What about the guy who killed Annelyse what does he do for them? For whatever reason I thought he was conected to the Afghan guys...

[John S]

No, that would be the little leagues. We're talking here about the ethics and morals of capitalism vs comunism or the eviliness of totalitarian systems and such. Now that I'm describing it, I think it would be loads of fun... but you know, the kind of threads that gets closed.

 

On another subject, whatever happened to Kimmy? When did we last see her?

For all intents and purposes, Communism is dead.

As far as I know, EVERY totalitarian system was evil.

O.K. Argument over.

[Umbelina]

The showrunners have said a few times that the preacher is just what he appears to be.  Originally I thought the girl she met on the bus was KGB and checking up on her, and starting her conversion to communism, and the Pastor was part of that.  He PLAYS it creepy, that's for sure.  Or skeevy.

 

They have the fall guy for the bug, the computer guy, so I am hoping Martha isn't dead, and won't die...yet.  I'd really love to see her begin double-agent stuff.  I know...I know... 

 

For the Politics of the 80's discussion, there is a thread, here you go!  http://forums.previously.tv/topic/5191-the-politics-of-the-80s-it-was-tense-and-divisive-just-like-today/#entry1048663

Edited April 17, 2015 by Umbelina

[ToastnBacon]

If Martha found out about Elizabeth and the kids, I think she'd try to kill Philip herself with her own bare hands.

I think the writers could have a lot of fun with this, but I doubt they will go that direction.

From reacting violently to blubbering and eating a whole gallon of rocky road ice cream, it would be hillarious.

I'm going to miss Martha a lot, she's a goner.

[henripootel]

Humans have been obsessed with lineages since the dawn of time.  Furthermore, this situation with Paige isn't really comparable to finding out one was adopted (and adoptees often seek out their biological family).

 

It's more than that - biological relatedness is hugely important to most creatures.  The best way I've found to explain this to students: if it wasn't, people leaving the hospital after having had a baby would be told 'just pick one, they're all the same'.

I'm going to miss Martha a lot, she's a goner.

I think Phillip is gonna try and give her some semblance of the truth, that he's just trying to keep the balance between this country and 'his'.  He's not a traitor, he's a patriot, and a guy you can build a realistic life with.  When this doesn't work, yeah, Martha's a goner.  She knows way too much and I'm sure there'll evidence in her apartment implicating Stasi or the Israelis or some such.

As crazy as Elizabeth is, I can't see Elizabeth standing up for murdering millions of innocents.

I'm sure she'll deal with it the same way we Americans deal with slavery and virtually wiping out the indians - agree that it was a terrible thing that should never have happened and move on.  You can love your country and not love everything done in its name.

[J-Man]

 

DC shout-outs: "Whatever you want, think Belmont." C&P Telephone (on Elizabeth's disguise overalls). Maybe Claudia and Gabriel's Greek diner was the Amphora in Vienna, VA? Also, we heard the final episode of Mash on Henry's TV.

While they got a lot of those details right, I think they messed up on the MASH promo--the end of the voiceover said "only on channel 5." The CBS affiliate in DC is on channel 9.

[bluebonnet]

While they got a lot of those details right, I think they messed up on the MASH promo--the end of the voiceover said "only on channel 5." The CBS affiliate in DC is on channel 9.

It probably has to do with FX being owned by Fox, which is channel 5 in DC.  Can't advertise for the competition and all that.   

Edited April 18, 2015 by bluebonnet

[sistermagpie]

Ah so that's what that tape was... I'm having a little trouble following all the missions this season. What about the guy who killed Annelyse what does he do for them? For whatever reason I thought he was conected to the Afghan guys...

 

 

He is, sort of. Iirc, Yousef is a representative of Pakistan who is working with the CIA regarding the war in Afghanistan. So they got the tape about these guys, then Philip contacted Yousef and asked him what he knew about these guys. Yousef told him about them, and Philip and Elizabeth used that info to manipulate Abassin into killing the others. Iirc, Yousef, who's very put off by these extremists, told him how Abassin chops peoples' heads off and Philip without missing a beat said, "What about the other two?"

[Cardie]

There are lots of tactical issues with Elizabeth taking Paige to the Soviet Union and leaving her there but if I were Paige and my parents were showing more and more anxiety that I would out them, that is the first possibility I'd think of. I expected to see some hint of fear when the trip came up.

Martha is toast. Philip is going to tell her the whole truth, because he owes her that, but then he can't let her live. It's that old joke: "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you." He will make it look like suicide and she may cooperate in that when she realizes the extent of her treason. Her parents, reflecting on that last call, wouldn't be surprised. We'll probably have the camera look away before the gunshot and I expect her to get a more dignified send-off than the Swede in the suitcase.

[dr pepper]

It just occurred to me: Stan and company don't know how long the bug was there. Maybe Phillip can frame Armador (sp?).

[gwhh]

And she could start asking them when they get home. How it go against moose and squirrel today?!?

I'm really hoping that at some point Paige starts referring to her parents as Boris and Natasha. Paige needs a friend to talk to.

I'm really hoping that at some point Paige starts referring to her parents as Boris and Natasha. Paige needs a friend to talk to.

[ToastnBacon]

There are lots of tactical issues with Elizabeth taking Paige to the Soviet Union and leaving her there but if I were Paige and my parents were showing more and more anxiety that I would out them, that is the first possibility I'd think of. I expected to see some hint of fear when the trip came up.Martha is toast. Philip is going to tell her the whole truth, because he owes her that, but then he can't let her live. It's that old joke: "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you." He will make it look like suicide and she may cooperate in that when she realizes the extent of her treason. Her parents, reflecting on that last call, wouldn't be surprised. We'll probably have the camera look away before the gunshot and I expect her to get a more dignified send-off than the Swede in the suitcase.

I'm thinking this is most the most likely scenario that the writers have in mind. However, they have portrayed Martha as being pretty damned delusional sometimes.

They just might have Phillip con her into thinking that they are running away together. He gets her out of the apartment and then puts one in the back of her head, Old Yeller-style.

What would telling her that he is KGB accomplish? It would only make her feel worse, and it runs the risk of her trying to claw his eyes out.

On second thought, having her death be violent and clumsy would add a twist to the plot with Gabriel thinking Phillip is cracking.

[Cardie]

I think Martha is deep in denial but not delusional.  In the back of her mind, she must know why "Clark" asked her to plant the bug, once she knows that he doesn't work for FBI internal affairs. I can see her having her worst fears confirmed but not going ballistic. I do hope that the killing isn't just a fait accompli when Wednesday's episode rolls around.

[Guest]

That was my first impression, and I'm going to stick with it. I believe Philip wants to do whatever he can to avoid killing Martha. It's going to be very interesting to see what his plan is.

I agree Phillip's trying to avoid killing her.  The only reason to unmask in front of her that I can see is to appeal to her to trust him-- "You know what I look like, I'm exposed, I need you to work with me now and trust me."  I have said from the start that in reality he would have had to kill her from the moment she was onto him.  But I think the writers like the character and so Martha probably will learn of Elizabeth and the kids, because it'll make good tv to see her experience that.  

 

Maybe she'll move in and it'll be like Three's Company.  Just kidding.

 

I didn't think they'd take Paige to Russia either but I did say I could see it happening just to turn her into a sympathizer so she starts spying.  Because seriously how long can we see her battle her parents?  It's already old.  

[LisaM]

 

I think it's obvious that there IS a plan for Paige that is more immediate than the eventual embedded agent after college thing.  Claudia has implied that strongly twice now.  Her last season "and SOON" and now the conversation with Gabriel.

Isn't Paige close in age to Kimmie? Perhaps the Center wants to use Paige to gain info from a CIA agent in a similar way that Philip is using Kimmie?

[Trillian]

Maybe she'll move in and it'll be like Three's Company.  Just kidding.

Or rather, Big Love. :)