S03.E12: I Am Abassin Zadran

[JBravoEcho09]

Regan's Evil Empire speech was in March 1983 and "The Day After" was released in November 1983. What I'm saying is that anti-Soviet doctrine did not saturate the media when Paige was a child and young teen as it's about to now. In the story, the date is late February 1983. We saw a TV ad for the finale of MASH, which was February 28, 1983.

 

 

Ends up the date of the speech (and probably the beginning of a lot of the anti-Russian sensationalism that many of you apparently grew up with) is March 8th, 1983.  Hmmm interesting, it also seems to be the title of the S3 finale.  Also many of you seemed to get much of your anti-Ruskie sentiment from your parents (clearly P&E are not going there, especially since E sticks up for Russia multiple times in S1), the news (which clearly hasn't started yet on top of multiple scenes from S1/S2/S3 where Paige and Henry ask their parents to turn off the news or are ignoring it), or movies (the earliest of which, War Games, is a few months away).  So I don't think it's out of the question that Paige is in one of those inbetweener times where a lot of the fear of Russians wouldn't have been fully developed.

[gwhh]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Phillip wanted to kill that afghan guy while they talked to him in the car?

Edited April 16, 2015 by gwhh

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't think not fearing Russian people is mutually exclusive of fearing KGB agents in your own country.  Even as a kid, I always accepted that people from other countries, first world, second world or third world were just people.  That didn't mean I wanted "enemy" agents living next door to me, or *gasp* in my own house.

[John S]

Philip actually took care of this--but not as a threat. He's been trying to be straightforward with her, answer the things she wants/needs to know without making it about what he needs. And what he did was to apologize for stating the obvious if she thought it was condescending, but that if she told anyone her parents would go to jail for good. So she knew that, and, it was implied, it was up to her what to do. She had the facts and knew the consequences. I think that's more the way this idea is being approached.

 

So rather than making it a threat it was more an expression of trust. She knew their lives were in her hands, with no hints that it would be hurting herself as well to get rid of them.

 

She's really not being that bad in terms of questions or acting out. But regardless, not only has the KGB not once said they were worried about it even when Claudia and Gabriel was alone, they show the opposite attitude when we see them. I don't think we should assume that Elizabeth is secretly reporting a totally different attitude to the Centre than she is with Philip now that they're in this together.

 

And what is the point of having indoctrination happen in Russia? It goes against what we know of their plans here. They want the parents involved. They want her nurtured by her parents because that's the relationship she has. Why send her to a scary foreign country with strangers? Why would this make Communism more palatable to her than Communism explained by the people who love her and who she loves sitting in their familiar kitchen?  I know the KGB can be stupid but this is playing into American anti-Soviet fantasies even more than the secret Russian parents do and that's saying something.

 

The KGB isn't always straightforward, but this is taking it to a whole other level where they're giving orders while secretly wanting the opposite. It's a domestic story, not the story of teenagers in foreign countries indoctrinated by people who understand her far less than her parents.

There is a HUGE difference between telling your 15 year old daughter that "If you tell, we will go to jail" and "If you tell, you will be killed".

If Elizabeth says this to Paige, then Paige's FIRST question to her mother would be "Are you going to kill me"? When Elizabeth says NO, then Paige's SECOND question will be "Have you EVER killed anyone?" If Elizabeth says NO, then Paige will probably KNOW that her mother is lying. If she says YES, or doesn't say anything, then how could she EVER trust her mother again - or Philip?"

Edited April 16, 2015 by John S

[CarobCake]

Afghanistan guy:

"Why is there no war here, in America? My country is always at war. And for what? Afghanistan has nothing -- no planes, no helicopters, no medicine. Nothing of our own."

Except for, excuse my french, SHITLOADS OF OPIUM. And I mean 90% of the world's production. Although this might have not been completely true yet back then: 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Background_.281979.E2.80.93present.29

[RedHawk]

I love catching the real 1980s DC shoutouts each week. This time we had C&P Telephone Company, an overheard phone conversation that "George Washington University is not that strong a school", and a TV ad for Delmott. Although I seem to have a vague memory of that name, I don't know what business Delmott was. Anyone?

[CTO]

 I am sorry if these questions come of as stupid, but I have no personal recollection of the Soviet Union at all. I was born in 1990. 

 

Born in 1990.  BORN in 1990 !!! :-)  

 

I just want to thank you for this and give you some applause. Made me smile, laugh a bit, think "omg i am old" because I was 22 in 1986 and just all around WOW factor :-)  Really lightens things up while also hitting home how different things were and not all that long ago.

 

Again, i'm so f'ing old. Good lord. Thanks again :-)

Edited April 16, 2015 by CTO

[spaceghostess]

The question of how to keep Paige in line is indeed a thorny one. My personal bias as a parent actually makes me less sympathetic toward Philip and Elizabeth. It's very hard for me to get past the fact that Paige and Henry were conceived, not from a loving bond or the desire of both parents to nurture children, but in service to a political cause. As much as their parents may have loved them from the very moment they were born (and I completely buy that P & E do love their children fiercely), these kids are a tent pole to support the Jennings' facade of suburban USA "normalcy". They're as much a part of P & E's cover as the American-make cars they drive or the cookie-cutter family home. Parents' responsibility is to the children they create, so any guilt Philip and Elizabeth are experiencing re: Paige is well founded, IMO. The fact that (a) they're tortured about what's happening with Paige; (b) they're scared as hell for both their children, and © they elect not to manipulate Paige into hating herself or feeling guilty for her own reactions gives them deeper dimension and credibility as characters, I think. I don't believe it makes them wishy washy, permissive, or too "modern". It makes them flawed parent/spies (spyrents?) who've dug themselves into a pretty deep fucking hole with these kids who never asked to be born. How they dig themselves out (or if they do) remains to be seen.

 

So, how to deal with Paige, from a purely practical standpoint? I think Philip's on the right track. Yes, she needs to know that careless outbursts are too risky, but they need to be as compassionate, patient, and truthful (ha! but yeah) as possible in conveying this and other information. Scaring her straight may work in the short term, but it's a tactic that doesn't have legs. The terror of knowing that lives are at stake whenever she opens her mouth could well drive the kid to other extremes of behavior and/or culminate in stress-induced public meltdowns or worse. Slow and steady wins the race with Paige, methinks. 

 

Oh, and I really enjoy reading the insightful and well-stated ideas and opinions posted here, so thanks all.

Edited April 16, 2015 by spaceghostess

[Blakeston]

Afghanistan guy:

"Why is there no war here, in America? My country is always at war. And for what? Afghanistan has nothing -- no planes, no helicopters, no medicine. Nothing of our own."

Except for, excuse my french, SHITLOADS OF OPIUM. And I mean 90% of the world's production. Although this might have not been completely true yet back then: 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Background_.281979.E2.80.93present.29

 

Not to mention the capacity for loads of high-quality marijuana, like what Philip gave to Kimmie.

[sistermagpie]

There is a HUGE difference between telling your 15 year old daughter that "If you tell, we will go to jail" and "If you tell, you will be killed".

 

 

Yes, I agree. I was noting out the difference. Philip is trying to lay out the realities of the situation and the danger while trying to minimize the threat and even the guilt trip. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

There is a HUGE difference between telling your 15 year old daughter that "If you tell, we will go to jail" and "If you tell, you will be killed".

 

 

When they originally told Paige the truth and at the end Philip made the "I have to tell you this, if you tell anyone, we will go to prison, forever" speech, I really truly thought for a fleeting second he was going to say "we will have to kill you". That's how menacing he is! I'm so used to him being able to flip into cold-blooded killer mode. Of course he would not say that to Paige, no, never. WHEW.

[RedheadZombie]

RZ, I often agree with the points you make, but not this time.  Trust is crucial to Paige.  Always has been, and now more than ever.  She desperately needs to believe in her parents.  To see that, at their core, they are not a total lie.  The trip to Russia has the potential to restore that trust. 

 

The KGB can manage the trip, much like Soviets managed the visits American journalists made there in the 1920s and 1930s.  They can make sure the grandmother is in a good hospital.  They can only show Paige what they want her to see.  It worked great on people like Lincoln Steffens (who after being given the antiseptic tour of the USSR, wrote "I have seen the future and it works.")  Won't surprise me if it works on Paige as well. 

 

Right now P&E have a huge Paige problem.  With her current state of mind, she could sabotage their entire operation.  They need drastic action.  This trip to the homeland, properly orchestrated, might be just what the doctor ordered. 

 

I see your points and even agree with them, but I didn't think Philip and Elizabeth were interested in complete theatre.  Is Paige as important as the American journalists?  The KGB can orchestrate a completely fake and happy visit without pissing off Elizabeth or Paige realizing this is an act?  I agree that Philip and Elizabeth are desperate to reel Paige back in, but so far, it's been important to give her what she wants - the truth.  Taking her to Russia to show her a fake happy country with wonderful hospital arrangements, is not the country that they are risking their lives for, and I don't feel like they would like it.  I know that I personally am not interested in watching it.  The only way I can appreciate this potential storyline, is if Paige sees through everything, and/or Elizabeth becomes disillusioned.  Even better, all of this is done without the KGB's knowledge, and Elizabeth discovers her mother's been dead for a while, and was not well cared for at the end of her life.  Or even less likely, Paige isn't appropriately receptive, Elizabeth leaves her behind for some re-education, and the wonderful fallout when Philip finally loses it with Elizabeth.

[Bannon]

I would applaud that turn of events.

 

 

Yes - the gun has to come into play in the next episode and I agree that the unintentional target will be Hans.

 

 

It is not the decision to have children "as a means to strengthen their covers" that deeply troubles me. It is the fact that they continue to do what they do (murdering innocents, random sex, leaving the kids to fend for themselves) now that they have children. They put themselves in danger of being killed or imprisoned on a regular basis. Elizabeth is OK with bringing her daughter into this life style. Really? I can't think of a "cause" that I would prioritize over my child's life and well-being.

I think this show is at its best when it has no qualms about portraying Elizabeth as the not-unexpected product of Stalinism, as someone who was about 10 when Stalin died, and  full blown teenager by the time Khruschev made his secret speech denouncing Stalin. Under the reign of Stalin, it was considered fully normal for children to inform on parents, with often deady results. That doesn't go away in a few years, just becuse Stalin died or because Khruschev made a speech. A real Stalinist could easily have an very, very, instrumental view of her children at times, even if she wavers at other times. If I may make an analogy with the Ameican form of totalitarianism, slavery, those who grew up in agreement with slavery didn't change their attitudes because a war was lost and some Amendments passed. 

 

(timeline edited; can't do math today)

Edited April 16, 2015 by Bannon

[90PercentGravity]

I was (joklingly) imagining the subtext of the Phillip/Martha confrontation to be something like:

 

Martha: I can't be with you like this.

Phillip: Would it help if you knew I was hot?

[whiporee]

 

. Sure, all parents want to protect their children from harm, and ugliness, and pain and fear. But sometimes it's just not possible.

 

I have a German friend -- she's a lot older than me -- who escaped East Germany during the Russian occupation. She and her family -- her father never came back from the war -- were led through six miles or so of woods in the middle of the night by her uncle. She was seven. He told her "You are not tied. You are not hungry. You will not make a sound. If I think you will be a danger to everyone else by making noise, I will cover your mouth until you cannot breathe. Do you understand?' She apparently did because they made it though, despite hearing the soldiers less than a hundred feet away. 

 

We can't compare anything of what we've been through to the people who grew up in Europe post war. Phillip and Elizabeth would quickly threaten Paige if life depended on it. It's not a thing we understand here in the states, but a two or three generations ago overseas, parents got used to demanding a lot and forcing their kids into difficult situations. 

[RedHawk]

I was (joklingly) imagining the subtext of the Phillip/Martha confrontation to be something like:

Martha: I can't be with you like this.

Phillip: Would it help if you knew I was hot?

 

 

I was laughing last night and thinking much the same thing! 

[Ellaria]

I think this show is at its best when it has no qualms about portraying Elizabeth as the not-unexpected product of Stalinism, as someone who was about 10 when Stalin died, and  full blown teenager by the time Khruschev made his secret speech denouncing Stalin. Under the reign of Stalin, it was considered fully normal for children to inform on parents, with often deady results. That doesn't go away in a few years, just becuse Stalin died or because Khruschev made a speech. A real Stalinist could easily have an very, very, instrumental view of her children at times, even if she wavers at other times. If I may make an analogy with the Ameican form of totalitarianism, slavery, those who grew up in agreement with slavery didn't change their attitudes because a war was lost and some Amendments passed. 

 

(timeline edited; can't do math today)

 

Perhaps. However, I am not a Stalinist and what she wants for her child frightens me and disturbs me. I do not have to approach this with her world view.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[Bannon]

I have a German friend -- she's a lot older than me -- who escaped East Germany during the Russian occupation. She and her family -- her father never came back from the war -- were led through six miles or so of woods in the middle of the night by her uncle. She was seven. He told her "You are not tied. You are not hungry. You will not make a sound. If I think you will be a danger to everyone else by making noise, I will cover your mouth until you cannot breathe. Do you understand?' She apparently did because they made it though, despite hearing the soldiers less than a hundred feet away. 

 

We can't compare anything of what we've been through to the people who grew up in Europe post war. Phillip and Elizabeth would quickly threaten Paige if life depended on it. It's not a thing we understand here in the states, but a two or three generations ago overseas, parents got used to demanding a lot and forcing their kids into difficult situations. 

It would be more apt comparison if your friend's uncle had actively sought to have your firend be threatened by Russian occupiers; like if he was a die-hard Nazi tying to wage a rear guard action against Russian occupiers, while being your firend's adult caregiver. There really isn't any way around this; Elizabeth and Phillip are perfectly awful parents..Stan Beeman's pretty crappy too, but at least he wasn't having his kids live under the same roof, while he he was out playing neo-nazi for a couple years. 

Possibly. However, I am not a Stalinist and what she wants for her child frightens me and disturbs me. I do not have to approach this with her world view.

Oh, goodness yes. If a person is not frightened and disturbed by the behavior of Stalinists, well, I am frightened and disturbed by that person. I grew up close to an ethnic Ukrainian community. If you aren't disturbed by those who supported Stalin, you either are just ignorant, or you have severely defective moral reasoning. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Bannon

[albaniantv]

Thinking a bit more about Martha, I assume because Philip took off his disguise, he will kill her. Just like when Betty, the late working widow, had honest conversation with Elizabeth, we knew her life was over. Until now, honest exchange with P & E has signalled impending doom, which may be why telling the truth to Paige makes me so nervous.

Like Gabriel, I  don't think this bodes well. At the same time, I am confident they cannot escalate the carnage on this show to include the Jennings kids, not even indirectly. So, which way out is the question.

Unlike some here, I never saw this prospective Russia trip as an opportunity for proselytizing or any grand scheme. Since Gabriel was bringing the news about her mother's deteriorating health, it could mean the Center was opening the way for contact. Philip seems to understand more than Elizabeth how important it is to Paige to have family, and everyone wants to get Paige back within the family unit. This might be the last chance to use a relative to reconnect Paige with their family.

 

Finally, I think it's clear that the FBI unit under Gaad found the bug, identified Zanaida as a double or Soviet agent and conducts most of its secret conversations out of reach of the bug --else why all those trees of boring documents at the Rezidentura. They aren't doing that bad, and now they are closing in on poor loyal Martha.

[Umbelina]

So......wow, did not expect that ending.  I am trying to remember, obviously Martha knows Clark is not clark, but does she know he is Phillip, and that he is friends with Stan?  I can't recall if she would be able to make that connection or not. 

 

No, she has no idea about the Philip/Stan connection.  Unless I missed  a very important scene! 

I didn't see anyone mention this yet.  After Stan and Aderholt finished talking, did anyone else hear the mail robot?  I watched it twice and to make sure I heard it.  I think they were standing in the hallway, not in the safe room, and the robot was in the hallway next to them, altho it wasn't shown.  Meanwhile, Oleg and the other Russian woman talk Arkady into keeping Project Zephyr going, which means they will eventually read the conversation between Stan and Aderholt and find out that the bug in the pen was found.  Or does the Center already know that.  I thought Philip and Elizabeth didn't tell anyone the bug was found.

 

I didn't notice it, but I'm so glad you did.  That is a good complication!

Would Paige be a prisoner, locked in a jail cell, locked in a hotel room, unable to move without an escort, or what?

If Elizabeth were to do something like that, HOW could she ever feel that Elizabeth was her mother? Paige would HATE her for the rest of her life.

It would be very easy to explain the need for secrecy and limited contact with Russians, I don't see THAT part of things being an issue.  Since it does look like they are doing this though, I seriously hope the KGB isn't able to cover up everything that is bleak there, and Paige catches a glimpse of the oppression that existed, or deprivation.

 

I'm not sure the writers would risk having Paige kept in Russia after her grandma visit, but it is one option.  The Stockholm Syndrome could work.  She is held by her captors and over time identifies with them and even commits crimes for them.  Like Patricia Hearst, but on a more organized scale.  The only other option I see is that they put Paige into a hypnotic trance and erase any memory of what she has been told about her parents being spies.  lol I know that sounds extreme, but how else do they get out of this pickle of a situation?  

---

Can someone please tell me why Granny was so snappy with the waitress?  Did I miss something.  Okay, she wanted tea. Why bite the girl's head off?

---

I sure do hope they create some way for Martha to survive.  I want her to stay on the show.  Can they keep her and Stan both on the show?  If Martha's parents became ill and needed her, that would be a good cover story, but it would have to be legit since the FBI would certainly check it out.  Well.....I guess they would. Who knows with this group. 

1.  Patty Hearst was repeatedly raped, and kept filthy and hungry in a closet.  I seriously doubt even Elizabeth is willing to do that to her daughter.

2.  Granny's probably pissed the the USA has SO MUCH, and the Soviet Union so little, so that little outburst seemed to me like part rage, part ideology.

3.  I do too.  The actress and the character have really grown on me.  I don't see how it's possible though, she would always be a threat and a huge risk, and they have enough risk going on right now.  Philip would also have to lie to the KGB about her current viability as an asset vs the threat potential.  I really doubt Elizabeth would be interested in saving Martha.  And yes, the FBI, at this point in time, will investigate the hell out of anyone in that office dying or disappearing.  They want to catch that mole.

 

I think I could sympathize with Paige if she seemed to be afraid and cautious.  Her flippant, in your face, I don't care who hears me witching doesn't ring true to me. With this kind of news, I would imagine a more toned down and careful approach, not, smarty pants.  Her repeated insistence that she talks loudly when Henry could over hear, tells me that she may be hellbent on exposing her parents.  IMO, the warning of her parents going to prison, doesn't bother her that much.  That's my take on it. Perhaps, her teen mind is not capable of absorbing the implications of her behavior.  But, whatever the reason, I'm over her and really would appreciate seeing less of her and more of the rest of the family.  

She's 15, and newly hormonal.   15 is a trying age, everything is changing, childhood is being left behind, and on top of all the normal stuff, she has to cope with all of this.  I'm very glad she is acting like this.  If she took it calmly I would be seriously pissed off at the writers. 

(I did like the post that talked about telling Paige some hard truths in no uncertain terms though, and honestly, with a couple of revisions, I think that would be wise.  It's what I would do.)

 

I also don't understand why the center is wanting to move so quickly with Paige, especially given what happened with the prior recruit, ended up killing his family

 

I also don't understand how they don't have a more detailed plan or strategy for recruiting the kids and telling them about what their parents do, again given what happened last season especially.  Just seems to be kind of "Well if they ask, tell them as little as possible and see how it goes"

 

Still, all that really has become beside the point now with Paige.  The question is how best to deal with her and minimize her potential interfernce with the team in place.  And if I am in charge of that decision, what I see as the best chance is keeping her in Russia for the time being once she is there with her mother. 

Neither do I.  I think it's obvious that there IS a plan for Paige that is more immediate than the eventual embedded agent after college thing.  Claudia has implied that strongly twice now.  Her last season "and SOON" and now the conversation with Gabriel. 

 

As for the rest of it, that's the problem I've always had with this story, which is why I was so relieved last night when Gabe expressed his secret concerns.  That little conversation has allowed me to buy into this storyline more.  At least someone realizes this could be a disaster of epic proportions.

 

If the KGB were to prevent Paige from leaving Russia, they would certainly lose P & E for good. A lot of the tension in this show comes from the idea that, dedicated as they are, P & E love their children more than their country. I can't see either one going along with a plan to kidnap Paige.

 

Also, lots of other people know Paige (Henry, Stan, Pastor Tim). How would they explain that she suddenly disappeared without saying goodbye to anybody? I don't think even Henry would buy that. And Pastor Tim knows that there have been problems between Paige and her parents. If she disappeared without a word, I'm pretty sure he'd go straight to the cops.

 

I seriously doubt Paige will stay in Russia.  However, Paige as a hostage if she is deemed a threat makes total sense to me.  KGB to Liz and Phil:  "Fuck up and she dies, oh, and don't forget you have another child.  BTW, do a better job when you recruit HIM."

Yes, but I think that Philip will have to be very careful of how Pastor Tim is handled.  If murdered, it could lead to an investigation and they would likely take a hard look at the fact he's so involved with a teenage girl.  Thus, looking into the Jennings family, which should be avoided at all costs.  That's why I think that an accident in Africa would make more sense.  

An "accident" in Africa would be pretty easy to arrange, but I don't see the point of it.  I doubt the FBI would care that much about his "looks accidental or of natural causes" death.  Stan doesn't suspect Philip or Elizabeth right now, so why would their kid's preacher even be noticed?

 

(More later, I quoted too many people!)

[Umbelina]

Teens can be rebellious and act out, but IMO Paige gets away with a lot and always has.  I'm not that much older than Paige and I would NEVER have thought of talking to my parents the way she does and neither did most of my peers.  Recall when she skipped school and lied about it?  She got punished, but my parents would have really gone off on something like that. My world would have come to stand still.  Her parents are quite tolerant of her behavior.  Then to leave a note about spending the night without prior approval?  I can't imagine it.  It's not normal for a 15 year-old, IMO, but I was raised in the south.  Backtalk wasn't tolerated very well and not falling house rules had consequences.

 

Paige has been a good kid.  She takes care of chores, her brother, does well in school.  She hasn't always been "bratty" at all.  Again, she's 15, and barring the fear of God speech that other poster outlined (that could still backfire) pissing Paige off more is suicide for Philip and Elizabeth.  Paige could very well decide that being adopted by the Minister and his wife  would be a far better life for her and her brother.  She could tell in a fit of anger or an emotional moment, or because she got high or drunk.  Paige holds the cards now, and I don't know if she realizes she could be killed, not by mom and dad, but by the people they work for.

    She is already going to be in Russia, or in some communist country, that is going to be on her passport or somewhere no matter how long she stays, that is something they will already have to explain later anyway.

 

There is no way in hell her passport would be involved.  Ever.

 

    Were Americans really allowed to enter the Soviet Union (generally speaking)? Weren't foreigners regarded with suspicion there? I am sorry if these questions come of as stupid, but I have no personal recollection of the Soviet Union at all. I was born in 1990. That's why I just can't imagine how this will work out in the show, but I guess we will all find out next week.

    I met a German guy once who had been living in the US for almost 30 years. He spoke German with an accent and occasionally could not recall certain words. He did however speak English perfectly. It is definitely possible with enough training and practise to loose your original accent.

 

Yes, you could travel there, heavily restricted travel with handlers.  I didn't think the perfect American accent thing was possible either, until former covert CIA officer Robert Baer said there is a school in Moscow that teaches Russians to speak with perfect "Indiana accents" and he not only met several graduates, he could not tell they weren't Americans.

 

Last comment about the attitude towards the Soviets in the early 80s.  Obviously it varied by location and experience and education, but I do think two things were pretty universal.

 

1.  They had nukes, and we had nukes, and both leaders seemed unpredictable and were involved in dick measuring with those weapons.  For me personally?  I decided "what will be will be" and decided to stop stressing about the world ending at any moment one of those nuts pressed a button.  The entire world was powerless against what those nuts might do.  (Obviously not a Reagan fan.)

 

2.  Bread and toilet paper lines, lack of food, very few cars, and complete lack of freedom to leave.  The wall.  It wasn't about hating the Russian people or thinking they were evil.  It was about them being trapped in hellish conditions, no freedom of speech, persecutions for religious beliefs, and absolutely government controlled press.  All of those things turned off even people who did lean toward socialist or communist rather than capitalist societies.  It was a deeply corrupted and bleak country, idealistic views and words subverted by the "Elite" haves and have nots.  No choice of career, or even housing, no freedom whatsoever.  Even Americans who may have felt that a more equal division of money and goods (socialism/communism) knew damn well that utopia didn't exist in the Soviet Union.

 

Also, I am so in love with all of this blowing up in Elizabeth's face!  I think she has finally realized how dangerous this plan is, and it's about damn time.  Some scales have dropped from her eyes, and I like to think she finally realizes that Paige could be taken out, and just what that means.  Woo! 

 

Also, some comments implied the KGB wants Paige in Russia.  I don't think they showed that.  Philip is the one pushing for it, and now Elizabeth agrees, since she's scared to death of and for Paige.  If anything, the KGB is trusting their agents on the ground about the best way to handle this.

 

Lots of great comments today, I'm loving reading them!

[sistermagpie]

We can't compare anything of what we've been through to the people who grew up in Europe post war. Phillip and Elizabeth would quickly threaten Paige if life depended on it. It's not a thing we understand here in the states, but a two or three generations ago overseas, parents got used to demanding a lot and forcing their kids into difficult situations.

 

 

Think of the stories the two shared about their lives. Elizabeth took care of her mother when she had diphtheria and claimed nobody helped her. Philip tells a story of being sent out to avoid gangs with no thought that anyone even should have helped him.

 

There really isn't any way around this; Elizabeth and Phillip are perfectly awful parents..Stan Beeman's pretty crappy too, but at least he wasn't having his kids live under the same roof, while he he was out playing neo-nazi for a couple years.

 

 

I think that's another modern idea--or not modern, but something that's become much more of a priority in recent years, which is the idea that an adult doing something like P&E or Stan is doing is "playing" at something. It's a phrase people use a lot for the people on the show, with the meaning that as parents they ought to be living lives that are mostly centered around their children and what their children might need or want moment by moment. At least once I remember elsewhere reading Philip being scolded for not offering to learn every single constellation along with Henry because Henry announced a whim to do it himself, because he was out "playing" Boris and Natasha. Kids should be encouraged to dream of saving the world, but adults are childish if they do it.

 

But P&E would never have this view. They seem to have been brought up with very little if any special consideration for them as children, and were given responsibilities and the idea that life was about sacrificing for bigger things.

 

They're awful parents in that they've betrayed their child by having her born into this situation that's unfair and dangerous for her. As day to day parents I think plenty of people would love them. That's part of the premise. Paige and Henry aren't miserable, neglected and abused kids. They have a lifetime of loving memories with their parents and a stable life with lots of love and support.

 

Re: Paige's reaction to the USSR, honestly I don't think she'd have to have a strong reaction one way or the other. It would mostly play to her as simply a foreign country, one she wouldn't be able to really understand in any deep way. Which would be a great response, actually. Not Elizabeth dealing with what she would read as American propaganda gone wild and not Paige being inspired to be a traitor by Moscow being pretty in the spring, just Paige wanting to see the woman for real who's her grandmother and not being able to understand a word she says. It's not a hellscape and it's not paradise. It's also not Paige's home. There's no reason seeing it would change some of the facts and impressions she would have about the place.

 

I don't think leaving her behind for re-education would have any meaning besides abandoning and betraying her child, which I don't think Elizabeth would have any thought of doing. Time spent in the USSR isn't going to make Paige Russian. The trip isn't about recruitment, it's about their family, which is flawed and unique. If her mother had moved to Germany they'd go to Germany instead.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking Clark would say, "Are you sure you want to let me go when you see how hot I actually am?"

 

Neither do I.  I think it's obvious that there IS a plan for Paige that is more immediate than the eventual embedded agent after college thing.  Claudia has implied that strongly twice now.  Her last season "and SOON" and now the conversation with Gabriel.

 

 

Or they just want her educated and loyal to Communism fast and know that Philip is throwing up roadblocks. I can't completely trust that the KGB wouldn't do anything stupid but it's just soooo stupid to lay out a plan that makes some sense (recruit kids to go to college and get government jobs) with some silly Kim Possible idea of teen spies which would undermine even that. If they start with Paige now they can believably come up with a career path for her and have her ready to look for other prospects in college, though. That makes more sense than us having to sit through Holly Taylor trying to be Elizabeth Jr. Paige is 15. She's about 2.5 years left before college--that's not actually a lot of time to get her in the right place philosophically. They could want to move forward fast on that without having plans for her to do jobs at 16. Even Philip himself started the season saying to Elizabeth that they were *almost there*--Paige was almost 18 and out of the house for her own life. I think that's the more realistic time clock.

 

Also, some comments implied the KGB wants Paige in Russia.  I don't think they showed that.  Philip is the one pushing for it, and now Elizabeth agrees, since she's scared to death of and for Paige.  If anything, the KGB is trusting their agents on the ground about the best way to handle this.

 

 

That was probably me saying they wanted her there, but I want to be clear I don't mean they really want her there, just that they seem to have agreed to it so in that sense it's fine and they're wanted.

Edited April 16, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Ellaria]

Maybe someone can help me with this...

 

After weeks of EST meetings, crossword puzzles and secret meetings with Oleg, Stan returns to FBI mode and tells Aderholt, “Let’s say the woman I shot didn’t actually die. Maybe she’s the one who beat the shit out of you and Gaad. Maybe she even killed my partner, Chris Amador.” (paraphrasing a bit)

 

Where did that insight come from? Has he been thinking about this all season? Has there been any prior indication that Stan was actually doing what he is supposed to be doing: trying to "connect the dots" and find the illegals?

 

I'm glad that Stan is suspicious. I was overjoyed when I saw him having tea with Martha. Welcome back, Stan the Man!

[TimWil]

I guess there really hasn't been an opportunity for Elizabeth to say to Paige something like "Your father and I adhere to communist ideology. Which means we're both hardcore atheists. HARDCORE. Now do you understand why we might have had a problem with your s****y bible studies thing?"

[sistermagpie]

Where did that insight come from? Has he been thinking about this all season? Has there been any prior indication that Stan was actually doing what he is supposed to be doing: trying to "connect the dots" and find the illegals?

 

 

It makes sense to me. Stan's been established as still wanting to catch the Illegals and not necessarily believing Nina's info about them being dead/exfiltrated, even if he doesn't blame that misinformation on Nina herself. Now there's a mole and we saw him get a clue about Martha just because she's an obvious suspect and we know that unconsciously he's noticed something up with her. So I didn't need a lot of explanation for why Stan's mind would go to Illegals. It's great to think of him going over the Martha's thinking she's been tricked by an Illegal...the same Illegal that's actually also tricking him.

 

I loved, btw, his talking about them, the way it mirrored what Aderholdt was saying about the guy he knew at the Rezidentura who talked about them with awe and seemed competitive. Stan's going to be devastated when he finds out about Philip, but also pretty impressed.

 

Btw, I loved Elizabeth's contempt about how the lecture at church was late because a pot luck-poster making-sing-a-long broke out. Pastor Tim and Paige probably have no idea how much contempt she has for it.

[Ellaria]

It makes sense to me. Stan's been established as still wanting to catch the Illegals...

 

I didn't say that it didn't make sense. Stan is the "FBI Guy Next Door"; the guy that snooped around in the Jennings' garage. It makes perfect sense.

 

Unfortunately, we didn't see enough of "that Stan" this season. We got way too much of sad sack Stan trying to pick up the pieces of a failed romantic life. And, IMO, I don't think that it has been "established" that he wants to catch the illegals. I've sort of forgotten what Stan wants.

[bluebonnet]

I'll echo everyone else who points out that teenagers have been little shits since the dawn of time.  I've actually found Paige to be extremely composed through all of this, even when she's raising her voice.  Her loyalty has been severely tested.  Her life has been a lie, her parents are criminal citizens of the enemy.  I think it's natural for her to want to be heard and also for her to express a sort of loyalty to her brother.  She did say that she kept secrets for him, but how willing is she to keep secrets from him.  

 

It's been an established part of Paige's personality that she tests and pushes boundaries.  She has to see how far she can go, how much she can push to find out what she wants to find out or to find out what happens when she pushes too far (Elizabeth putting her hands on Paige was probably frightening).  There is also the issue where Paige has been shown that getting arrested is sort of glamorous.  She was nearly breathless when describing Pastor Tim being taken away in handcuffs and she felt a new closeness with her mother after being told they were activists in the past.  

 

The realism of Paige's journey and Holly Taylor's performance is quite breathtaking.  

While I totally agree with the first part, I can't give thumbs up to the rest of the post. I don't agree that Paige has grown up thinking the Soviet Union and Soviet spies are bad bad bad and comparable to how we saw Nazis then or terrorists today. I was born in 1962 and never felt that way about the USSR. We were not "indoctrinated". I studied Russian in college -- many educated people already knew that the Soviet Union was collapsing economically and was a shithole where the citizens were miserable. '50s era blacklisting was an embarrassment from the past. Fallout shelters and duck-and-cover were jokes to us. Our impression of Russian spies was Boris and Natasha!

 

Most of my generation weren't afraid of b-b-b-bombing (anyone remember that Regan open mic gaffe?) until Raygun Ronnie came up with the "Evil Empire" moniker and conservatives grabbed hold of it. Many of us were less afraid of the Soviet Union than Regan's policies. "The Day After" and all that nuclear panic was mid '80s, not '70s when Paige was a kid and the Cuban Crisis was a distant memory. The anti-nuke movement was indeed about getting rid of the danger of mutually assured destruction but also the danger of meltdowns and nuclear waste. 
 

Edited to add: Regan's Evil Empire speech was in March 1983 and "The Day After" was released in November 1983. What I'm saying is that anti-Soviet doctrine did not saturate the media when Paige was a child and young teen as it's about to now. In the story, the date is late February 1983. We saw a TV ad for the finale of MASH, which was February 28, 1983.
 

I do agree that using nazi and jihadist as comparison was not accurate.  For the rest, it could be an issue of people having different experiences growing up during that time.  My parents tell a very different story than what you've described above.  They grew up in the aftermath of McCarthyism and through the 60s and 70s, Communist was still considered a bad word, something to be fearful of.  They had frequent bomb drills.  Most of the men in their lives were killed or damaged in some way when they were sent off to wars to fight Soviet backed regimes.  For my parents and the people they knew, the Soviet Union was absolutely the enemy even if their enemy status wasn't as great as the nazis.  It also seems as though so many things at the time was compared to the USSR.  Who could get to space the fastest, for example.  

 

I just think it's reasonable for Paige to be aware that the US and the USSR are not friends.  

[ToastnBacon]

To add to my comments above, while we children of the '60s and '70s were not indoctrinated that the Soviet Union was bad bad bad, spies and espionage were big in film and books, especially James Bond and Soviet spy novels like Gorky Park. Spies were usually portrayed as intriguing rather than scary, but we knew they could be heroes or villains.

We must be around the same age, because I strongly identify with what you are saying. I was born in 1965, and although I do remember a Civil Denfense siren that would do a test blast at noon on Saturdays, we had none of those "duck and cover" drills in my schools, and I'm pretty sure that siren was removed in the early 1970s.

I don't remember our history or social studies curriculum being devoted to slandering the Soviet Union either.

It wasn't until I joined the USAF in late 1983, that I got anything close to an anti-Soviet indoctrination. They used to have Soviet Awareness briefings that we attended about once a year, or every two years.

That was mostly a briefing on Soviet military capabilities and tactics. They covered a little about culture and and life in the Soviet Union, but not much.

We did get briefed on the danger of being infiltrated on a regular basis though.

I was a Security Policeman in the Air Force for my first few years, and was stationed at a SAC missile base in Montana.

We were told that if hostilities erupted with the Soviets, that a possible scenario would be Spetsnaz troops might attack our command and control simultaneous to a Soviet launch of missiles.

I remember being told that the Soviets had sleeper cells and large weapons caches hidden all over the U.S.

There was an episode during season one that had P&E going to a weapons cache, it made me chuckle.

Also, in the DC region, many young people had friends whose parents worked for the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Paige had school friends whose fathers or mothers worked at those agencies. It would be odd if Stan were the only Fed she knows, although he is of course the one most involved in intelligence work.

I agree again. The CIA, FBI, and NSA are huge employers in that region. The vast majority of the people working at those agencies are in support roles though. Not everyone who works for the CIA or FBI is a field agent. They are mostly office workers.

 

Yes, it seems they're trying to show us that Henry is now being neglected (even more!) and maybe that's building toward something. While it may appear to P&E that he's happily absorbed in his electronic game and TV, he may be quietly listening to their interactions and coming up with his own conclusions about what's going on in his house. HE may be the one who goes to Stan!

I'm hoping they go in this direction for they show. Henry probably would know a lot more than P&E thinks.

Plus, I can see him being pissed that they think they are keeping him in the dark with their weak ass cover stories.

[sistermagpie]

I didn't say that it didn't make sense. Stan is the "FBI Guy Next Door"; the guy that snooped around in the Jennings' garage. It makes perfect sense.

 

Unfortunately, we didn't see enough of "that Stan" this season. We got way too much of sad sack Stan trying to pick up the pieces of a failed romantic life. And, IMO, I don't think that it has been "established" that he wants to catch the illegals. I've sort of forgotten what Stan wants.

 

 

I meant it made sense to me meaning that I didn't think we needed to see "that Stan" before he did it. He established he still wanted to catch the Illegals at the start of S2. Gaad said the trail had gone cold and Stan was frustrated by that. That, to me, was enough for him to get excited about them again any time he wants. It was enough for me to see him think about Martha and go to her apartment to show that "that Stan" was back and he was on the case. I didn't need to see it reawakened in a specific way, since there was no reason for it to go away. He hasn't spent the whole season being a sad sack. He was also the person who wondered about Zinaida, for instance.

[Auntie Anxiety]

I'm really hoping that at some point Paige starts referring to her parents as Boris and Natasha. Paige needs a friend to talk to.

[sistermagpie]

I'm really hoping that at some point Paige starts referring to her parents as Boris and Natasha.

 

 

It's been my  headcanon that she now refers to them as "B&N" in her diary. And that Stan should have been referring to his Illegals as that for years.

[RedHawk]

Anyone think that the reason they had two tents on that family camping trip was because either Philip or Elizabeth was out on a mission during the night? Was it really a thing to have two tents, one for little kids? I recall putting up a tent was such a hassle that no one would want to put up two if they didn't have to. Yet P&E have established quite strongly with Paige and Henry that they are NOT to be disturbed at night, so I guess they kept that up even on legit camping trips. No "family bed" in the Jennings family!

 

What do you think Philip thought about Paige's revelation that Henry was afraid he'd get eaten by a bear? I think he seemed to note that the kids didn't/couldn't come to him with their fears, both because Henry wanted to act grown up but also because that boundary had been set of "don't ever knock on our door at night, go to each other". 

 

Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking Clark would say, "Are you sure you want to let me go when you see how hot I actually am?"

 

 

 

Hehehe! Philip: "You see Martha, under this fake hair is even better hair."

 

It's been my headcanon that she now refers to them as "B&N" in her diary. And that Stan should have been referring to his Illegals as that for years.

 

 

In my headcanon every time Stan comes over to chat with Philip, he first waves a six-pack inside the door.

Edited April 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

Yet P&E have established quite strongly with Paige and Henry that they are NOT to be disturbed at night, so I guess they kept that up even on legit camping trips. No "family bed" in the Jennings family!

 

 

I guess they might have sent a message out in the woods, one or the other.

 

What do you think Philip thought about Paige's revelation that Henry was afraid he'd get eaten by a bear? I think he seemed to note that the kids didn't/couldn't come to him with their fears, both because Henry wanted to act grown up but also because that boundary had been set of "don't ever knock on our door at night, go to each other".

 

 

That could have been the case--but also it would make sense for any little boy sharing a tent with his sister to tell her what he was afraid of in the moment and then be embarrassed and make her swear not to tell. Still, it's impossible to completely separate that from the whole "no coming to us at night" rule--as well as Paige's subtle threat when she tells Henry's secret. All these things would be normal in a normal family (plenty of siblings might know about little things that happened on vacation that Mom and Dad didn't know about, it's normal to tell a secret years after the kid is too old to care) but it can't help but have sinister overtones with them.

 

It's interesting, actually, that it seems like a lot of people see Paige and Henry as exceptionally close because of their weird upbringing, but they really don't seem that way to me. They're not estranged or anything, but they don't seem to mirror the bond between their parents for instance. Their personalities don't exactly mesh--it's like Elizabeth and Philip but without developing that weird bond.

 

Hehehe! Philip: "You see Martha, under this fake hair is even better hair."

 

 

ROTFL!!

 

On the podcast there was some interesting references to other parts of the Clark disguise that I find kind of fascinating. Like he wears a lip thinner and I know he's also got some deeper lines drawn in. As someone pointed out elsewhere, she thought Clark was a guy wearing a toupee to look younger and he's actually a younger guy trying to look older.

[Mindymoo]

Anyone think that the reason they had two tents on that family camping trip was because either Philip or Elizabeth was out on a mission during the night? Was it really a thing to have two tents, one for little kids? I recall putting up a tent was such a hassle that no one would want to put up two if they didn't have to. Yet P&E have established quite strongly with Paige and Henry that they are NOT to be disturbed at night, so I guess they kept that up even on legit camping trips. No "family bed" in the Jennings family!

The one and only time my family went camping, which is the time that taught me to absolutely abhor camping, my parents slept in their own tent, and my brother and I shared a tent. It ended up raining like crazy, and the sun only started shining when my parents packed our shit up and decided to head to a hotel. So with my limited experience, I'd say it's not out of the realm of possibility, and my parents definitely were not Soviet spies because we're Poles and my family either strongly dislikes to flat out hates the Russians. But with Phillip and Elizabeth, it could be nefarious.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Mindy McIndy

[Umbelina]

All I could think of when Paige mentioned that her brother was afraid of being eaten by a bear was the ferocious Russian Bear symbols, long before they made the bear all cute and cuddly for the recent Olympics.  (And then promptly invaded another country)

 

Maybe Henry was on to something.  Or maybe I've watched too much Mad Men and am now looking for symbolism here as wel.

[soapfaninnc]

I'm really hoping that at some point Paige starts referring to her parents as Boris and Natasha. Paige needs a friend to talk to.

 

Or Boris and Doris. (True Lies movie reference). I can just see Phil and Liz telling Paige when she asks if they killed anyone - 'Yes, but they were all bad!'

[sistermagpie]

Maybe Henry was on to something.  Or maybe I've watched too much Mad Men and am now looking for symbolism here as wel.

 

 

Maybe Henry will have PTSD camping flashbacks when Reagan's "bear in the woods" commercial comes out.

[bluebonnet]

I think it's highly likely P&E had a job on that camping trip.  But having two tents does seem fairly typical.  We always had separate tents.  If I'm recalling correctly, all my cousins and their parents also had separate tents.  We camped a lot.  

[txhorns79]

It is not the decision to have children "as a means to strengthen their covers" that deeply troubles me. It is the fact that they continue to do what they do (murdering innocents, random sex, leaving the kids to fend for themselves) now that they have children. They put themselves in danger of being killed or imprisoned on a regular basis. Elizabeth is OK with bringing her daughter into this life style. Really? I can't think of a "cause" that I would prioritize over my child's life and well-being.

 

You also haven't been indoctrinated the way Elizabeth has been, and aren't living under the kind of threats that there would be to Elizabeth and her family if she was to suddenly start refusing to comply with orders. 

[Bannon]

Think of the stories the two shared about their lives. Elizabeth took care of her mother when she had diphtheria and claimed nobody helped her. Philip tells a story of being sent out to avoid gangs with no thought that anyone even should have helped him.

 

 

I think that's another modern idea--or not modern, but something that's become much more of a priority in recent years, which is the idea that an adult doing something like P&E or Stan is doing is "playing" at something. It's a phrase people use a lot for the people on the show, with the meaning that as parents they ought to be living lives that are mostly centered around their children and what their children might need or want moment by moment. At least once I remember elsewhere reading Philip being scolded for not offering to learn every single constellation along with Henry because Henry announced a whim to do it himself, because he was out "playing" Boris and Natasha. Kids should be encouraged to dream of saving the world, but adults are childish if they do it.

 

But P&E would never have this view. They seem to have been brought up with very little if any special consideration for them as children, and were given responsibilities and the idea that life was about sacrificing for bigger things.

 

They're awful parents in that they've betrayed their child by having her born into this situation that's unfair and dangerous for her. As day to day parents I think plenty of people would love them. That's part of the premise. Paige and Henry aren't miserable, neglected and abused kids. They have a lifetime of loving memories with their parents and a stable life with lots of love and support.

 

Re: Paige's reaction to the USSR, honestly I don't think she'd have to have a strong reaction one way or the other. It would mostly play to her as simply a foreign country, one she wouldn't be able to really understand in any deep way. Which would be a great response, actually. Not Elizabeth dealing with what she would read as American propaganda gone wild and not Paige being inspired to be a traitor by Moscow being pretty in the spring, just Paige wanting to see the woman for real who's her grandmother and not being able to understand a word she says. It's not a hellscape and it's not paradise. It's also not Paige's home. There's no reason seeing it would change some of the facts and impressions she would have about the place.

 

I don't think leaving her behind for re-education would have any meaning besides abandoning and betraying her child, which I don't think Elizabeth would have any thought of doing. Time spent in the USSR isn't going to make Paige Russian. The trip isn't about recruitment, it's about their family, which is flawed and unique. If her mother had moved to Germany they'd go to Germany instead.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking Clark would say, "Are you sure you want to let me go when you see how hot I actually am?"

 

 

Or they just want her educated and loyal to Communism fast and know that Philip is throwing up roadblocks. I can't completely trust that the KGB wouldn't do anything stupid but it's just soooo stupid to lay out a plan that makes some sense (recruit kids to go to college and get government jobs) with some silly Kim Possible idea of teen spies which would undermine even that. If they start with Paige now they can believably come up with a career path for her and have her ready to look for other prospects in college, though. That makes more sense than us having to sit through Holly Taylor trying to be Elizabeth Jr. Paige is 15. She's about 2.5 years left before college--that's not actually a lot of time to get her in the right place philosophically. They could want to move forward fast on that without having plans for her to do jobs at 16. Even Philip himself started the season saying to Elizabeth that they were *almost there*--Paige was almost 18 and out of the house for her own life. I think that's the more realistic time clock.

 

 

That was probably me saying they wanted her there, but I want to be clear I don't mean they really want her there, just that they seem to have agreed to it so in that sense it's fine and they're wanted.

The "playing" I referred to was the playing of the role of neo nazi. Yes it is important work. Work that Stan decided was a higher priority than being in his chid's life. As a simple matter of logic, if you completely renounce all effort at accomplishing a task, whether it be fixing the sink, or providing moral instruction to your children, then you are lousy at that task. Now, choosing to be lousy at the task of being a parent may or may not be an ethical choice, dependng on the circumstances, but it doesn't change the unavoidabe fact that the choice has been made to abandon a task. Wheter this assertion is "modern" or not I can't say. i suspect people have tended to avoid facing their choices head on, and instead have preferred to avoid the essence of what it means  make choices, for as long as human have engaged in moral reasonng.

 

As for Elizabeth and Philip, they are quite awful in more ways than parenting, of course, but pimping out your daughter to serve the geopolitical strategy of the Soviet State is pretty damned hideous, every bit as awful as dong something simlar to serve the needs of the apartheid state in South Africa. Yes, their background is such that their choices are not surprising, but that is going too easy on them. There were people who had backgrounds every bit as hard as Elizabeth and Phillip's in the mid century Soviet era, who had the courage and moral vision to plainly describe the Soviet State, and not support it. Much like Thomas Jefferson and slavery, it is reasonable to say that if a person's fellow countymen could see what was in front of them, it is not unreasonable to ask others do the same. Yeah, it's a hard and high standard. Nobody said being a creature possessed of a moral compass was gonna be easy. Every last one of us has it comin', in one way or another, but that doesn't give any us a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

The "playing" I referred to was the playing of the role of neo nazi. Yes it is important work. Work that Stan decided was a higher priority than being in his chid's life. As a simple matter of logic, if you completely renounce all effort at accomplishing a task, whether it be fixing the sink, or providing moral instruction to your children, then you are lousy at that task. Now, choosing to be lousy at the task of being a parent may or may not be an ethical choice, dependng on the circumstances, but it doesn't change the unavoidabe fact that the choice has been made to abandon a task. Wheter this assertion is "modern" or not I can't say.

 

 

I'd say that yes, the idea that you're lousy at being a parent because you've decided that your job is a higher priority than spending time with your kid is pretty modern. History is full of famous people who had kids and spent lots of time away from them, with the kids having tutors or nannies or being at school, and this was considered perfectly normal rather than lousy. They probably didn't think of themselves as abandoning the task.

 

As for Elizabeth and Philip, they are quite awful in more ways than parenting, of course, but pimping out your daughter to serve the geopolitical strategy of the Soviet State is pretty damned hideous, every bit as awful as dong something simlar to serve the needs of the apartheid state in South Africa.

 

 

What you call pimping out Elizabeth considers giving her child a good moral education. To Elizabeth, letting Paige embrace capitalism is the opposite of seeing what's in front of her. She thinks it's the job of a parent to raise a child who lives a meaningful life and that means helping the cause.

 

Obviously I don't agree with her. But I wouldn't describe either Philip or Elizabeth as ever having abandoned the task of being parents. They're both involved in their children's lives and are loving and supporting. They're guilty of a lot by bringing their kids into a dangerous situation but the kids' day to day lives growing up seems to have been really good.

 

I fully admit this is one of the things i love in so-called "prestige" TV, that they often seem to embrace the idea that adults have a lot of roles and things they think are important and parenting isn't always the priority. That can still make for some rewarding and powerful parent/child relationships.

Edited April 17, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Macbeth]

Martha is breaking my heart.

 

And Philip is only making it worse for her.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Macbeth

[Bannon]

I'd say that yes, the idea that you're lousy at being a parent because you've decided that your job is a higher priority than spending time with your kid is pretty modern. History is full of famous people who had kids and spent lots of time away from them, with the kids having tutors or nannies or being at school, and this was considered perfectly normal rather than lousy. They probably didn't think of themselves as abandoning the task.

 

What you call pimping out Elizabeth considers giving her child a good moral education. To Elizabeth, letting Paige embrace capitalism is the opposite of seeing what's in front of her. She thinks it's the job of a parent to raise a child who lives a meaningful life and that means helping the cause.

Obviously I don't agree with her. But I wouldn't describe either Philip or Elizabeth as ever having abandoned the task of being parents. They're both involved in their children's lives and are loving and supporting. They're guilty of a lot by bringing their kids into a dangerous situation but the kids' day to day lives growing up seems to have been really good.

 

 

Yes, it was quite normal to abandon the task of providing moral instruction to your children, and hire other people to do it. Normal is not mutually exclusive from lousy. If I hire someone to cut my lawn, and never do it myself, it is 100% accurate to state that I am bad at cutting the lawn, even if I am good at hiring somebody to see that it gets done. Stan, of course, didn't even see fit to see to the raising of his children from afar. He completely ignored the task for years. Now, as i said, making such a choice can be pefecty ehtical. It was critical to the betterment of human civilization that global seafaring become commonplace, so any man who abandoned the task of raising his children, to sail to the ends of the earth, was making a perfectly ethical choice  Stan's choice is more grey, and I would not assert strongly one way or another as to its ethcs, but that doen't change the fact that he made the choice to not be a father.

 

I never said that Elizabeth and Phillip abadoned their children. I said that they were hideous parents, and yes, the reason why they are hideous lies in good part because they think their cause is a moral one. It is not, and that makes them every bit as hideous as any parent who sent ther teenager to die at Antietem, so as to proect the institution of slavery in North America, or who sent their teenager to die at Stalingrad, to effect the Nazi victory in WWII, or sent their teenager to die at Okinawa, to keep the Japanese militarists in power in Tokyo. You were a lousy parent to teach your children that these regimes were worth dying for.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bannon

[dr pepper]

Maurice is skating uncomfortably close to a sleezy stereotype: eager to pimp out Lisa to do the work and face the danger so he can enjoy the extra income.

[Former Nun]

the reason why they are hideous lies in good part because they think their cause is a moral one.

 

 

Their cause is a moral one in their eyes...and probably in the eyes of their countrymen.  It may not be moral in the eyes of someone from an enemy country or a country not involved. One's beliefs and judgments regarding morality are generally tied to cultural experiences.   The crimes against humanity that spies may commit are not much different than those of the military...ours or someone else's.  Just my opinion....

[kikaha]

 Martha has realized how deep she is.

I think she has about two minutes left to enjoy that realization. 

 

She said it herself.  The FBI will find out who planted the bug.  She knows it.  Phillip knows it.  The KGB cannot allow the FBI to take Martha into custody and question her. 

 

I guess one option is to spirit her out of the US, and behind the Iron Curtain.  A whole lot of expense and risk, both ongoing without end, for someone who does not believe in their cause.  Who -- out of shame, anger or betrayal -- might still find a way to get her real story to the attention of US agents. 

 

Permanently silencing her solves all these problems.  It puts the KGB in control of events.  They can sanitize her apartment... plant false DNA and fingerprints... leave phony photos... and of course write her suicide note.  I've been expecting this ever since they found the bug.  One more episode to see how things unfold.  

 

Martha knew 'Clark' was a phony.  She knew he didn't work for the US government -- which almost certainly made him a spy.  She knew he had suckered her into feeding him classified info vital to US interests.  Given all that, I'm real, real surprised she told him her plans to leave.  If I'm right, it will ultimately prove to be a fatal mistake. 

[dr pepper]

I don't know much about youth pastors, but is it normal for them to have minors sleep over at their houses

 

Not at that time. But 10 years earlier. during the Jesus Freak movement, it would have been no big deal. That's what that group reminds me of, a 70s congregation having be-ins and "getting high on Jesus".

[pasdetrois]

There were a lot of pastors and priests like Tim floating around in the 70s and 80s. Quite a few of them were charlatans. And worse.

 

The Paige-knows-and-goes-to-Russia story isn't working for me. We all wondered how her parents would handle their children's suspicions, but this story line seems forced and implausible. 

 

I also think we have too many story lines; the show's quality is threatened.

 

I don't think Clark removed his wig as a show of respect for Martha. I think he's desperate to buy time until he can figure out how to kill her without raising suspicion. The wig scene was a sinister combination of scary threat and "trust me." My bet is on the fake suicide over the pen disclosure, with the idea that Stan's visit pushed her over the edge.

 

DC shout-outs: "Whatever you want, think Belmont." C&P Telephone (on Elizabeth's disguise overalls). Maybe Claudia and Gabriel's Greek diner was the Amphora in Vienna, VA? Also, we heard the final episode of Mash on Henry's TV.

 

Speaking of Claudia, love me some Margo Martindale. Watching the two grizzled old pros work the problem was magic because the acting was effortless.

 

Which leads me to Oleg and Tatiana. I like their scenes together - they have great acting chemistry.

 

Maurice is a dead man walking.

Edited April 17, 2015 by pasdetrois

[txhorns79]

If I hire someone to cut my lawn, and never do it myself, it is 100% accurate to state that I am bad at cutting the lawn, even if I am good at hiring somebody to see that it gets done.

 

I don't think that's right.  It would be accurate to state that you don't cut your own lawn.  Whether you were "good" or "bad" at the task is a different issue.  You could easily do an excellent job of cutting your lawn, when you actually perform the task yourself. 

 

 

None of the people in those regimes you mentioned thought of their government as evil, just like Paige and Phillip. Hind or broad sight may prove them wrong, but they were doing what patriotic parents do -- send their kids off to fight the wars their country chooses.

 

I have to agree.  Elizabeth and Phillip think their cause is righteous, and that they are great patriots.  They justify how they behave with Paige and Henry because they view it as a sacrifice they are making for the greater good of Mother Russia.  That's how they were raised and later indoctrinated.  With our hindsight, they look foolish, but they have no way of knowing that.  

[DrSpaceman]

I did realize on rewatching its actually Phillips idea that Paige go with Elizabeth to Russia.  He actually says something like "If you don't go with her I will". 

 

Still wouldn't trust the KGB though with Paige in a communist country. 

 

I also find the storyline of the guy killing others in the hotel just implausible and goofy, honestly.  I was a bit confused on it all at first.  Was he supposed to be a diplomat?  Come on, two people juist come and based and rumors tell you your partners are rumored to be sabotaging you tomorrow at the meeting and your only decision to get around it is I will just kill them in cold blood in their hotel rooms tonight?  Thats just far fetched.