Speculation: So Red's Her Father, Right?

[Julia]

Given this show, it wouldn't surprise me if the producers don't quite get what the implications of OTP are.

[Happytobehere]

I do have to admit that my thought from the pilot was Red is hair girl's father. The horror of MB's acting has made any other reason of interest impossible. If Red finds her compelling and the object of his love, then he can fall in love within oxygen, which at least serves an actual purpose, so far MB in the role of dim bulb girl is not sacrifice it all for her love if she is not his daughter.

However, having viewed the entire season, I think it is plausible and possible that this is not the case. As stated before, such a pairing would make me vomit in my mouth. I see zero romantic chemistry there and the man is clearly old enough to be her father and no matter how many men in power lie to themselves to the contrary, that ain't cute.

[Literata]

Wish I could find the interview, but Jon Bokenkamp told some media outlet that the show's soundtrack is no accident; he said every song is very deliberately chosen. We're not talking "Butterfly Kisses" here -- each song that deals with love, especially in the last few episodes, is NOT father-daughter love.

 

"Just Breathe" by Pearl Jam was the last song used in the finale; the lyrics would make a pretty appropriate backdrop for a Red/Lizzie relationship.

 

I'm not as bothered by the prospect of Lizzie and Red being together; I just wonder how she's going to pull it off, in that -- as has been pointed out many times here -- she's nowhere near Spader's acting caliber. I imagine, though, that he'll just keep pulling her along like the scenery she is. And I'm optimistic Spader will make anything work. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by Literata

[ontb]

We still don't know if Red is Liz's father. Is that the question you get from fans the most?

Bokenkamp: Yes, he's a very experienced older man and she is a young, sort of rather inexperienced person in her life. So there's a natural paternal thing going on there. That is a question that I think people like to speculate about. I think it's a good one. She asked him that question point-blank and he answered, "No." But like Red said in the pilot, "I'm a criminal. Everything about me is a lie." Who can really trust anything the guy says? http://www.tvguide.com/News/Blacklist-Berlin-Finale-1081206.aspx

 

That's just an example. Jon is always talking about paternal feelings. No way there is something romantic between them. Thank god.

[Nessie]

That's just an example. Jon is always talking about paternal feelings. No way there is something romantic between them. Thank god.

 

I hope so.  A Red and Lizzie romance would be a deal-breaker for me.  I've quit shows for less, and I certainly don't love this show enough to try to stomach that.

[ontb]

Do you have an answer for why people like this kind of show?

 

John Eisendrath: As dark as the show is, and as violent as you correctly pointed out that it is, it’s still enjoyable in many ways because it is a fantasy, a wish-fulfillment show…[Red’s] a completely fantastical character who you won’t get to hang out with in real life…He’s incredibly enjoyable—he does dark things, but he does it in a light way…And I do think there is the very universal story at the core of it, which is this father-daughter, surrogate father-daughter, but familiar relationship that is relatable—and yet it’s totally fantastical.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/09/17/the-blacklist-creator-on-story-secrets-guest-stars-and-season-two/

 

Thanks John. 

[Julia]

Yeah, well. Uninteresting dullwitted child of a powerful person gets preferential treatment at work even though they're not any good at their job isn't actually something I fantasize about or relate to.

[kaygeeret]

Yeah, well. Uninteresting dullwitted child of a powerful person gets preferential treatment at work even though they're not any good at their job isn't actually something I fantasize about or relate to

 

 

Yeah, I can't relate to it as that wasn't my background.

 

But I sure saw it happen in my various careers.  The dimwit/entitled kid who knew we all had to take his shit, never amounted to a hill of beans in the job he was handed -however  I certainly never followed the kids to know what happened to them in the end.

 

Maybe Red will save her and make her smart and make her an actual actor, who knows.

 

Much as I love Spader, if they are a love connection I am so out. 

[alias1]

No matter how the producers have tried to side step this question, the only answer for me is that he IS her father.  That's the only thing that makes sense to me about his over protective obsession with her.  I don't care how else they try to explain it (she's his niece, she's the daughter of a former love interest, she's his own love interest, etc.) it's all going to come off as super contrived to me.  I think that's why they have stalled so much on this issue.  They can't come up with anything else that makes sense, but with so much fan reaction saying that's way too obvious, they don't know what else to do.  I just can't see how they will come up with anything more believable.  Of course, most of this show is not believable so I guess they will come up with something else.  Maybe I'm wrong and there will be a huge reveal (ha, ha).   

[Julia]

Does it matter? It seems pretty obvious that he sees himself standing in the place of her father, so whether he's biologically her father seems like it's beside the point. When he was talking to the man who raised Lizzie, he referred to her as his "daughter," even though we know that's technically not the case, so he doesn't seem to care. I'm going to go with parent and not sperm donor.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Julia

[KerleyQ]

Am I losing my mind, or, in a late in the season episode, didn't Red tell her that the people her husband works with targeted her specifically to get to him?  That would naturally imply that there was some pre-existing relationship between them, yet she seems to not know what that relationship is.  So that leads me to believe that they are family of some kind, but he has not been in her life (possibly to make things safer/easier for her).  

 

As for the show being comfortable with the smush name, it would not be the first time I've seen one of those names used to represent non-romantic pairings.  I don't think that it implies that the producers/writers view the pairing as romantic or potentially romantic as much as they know that some fans see the two as a unit, which they are, whether that means they are family, friends, or romantic.  

[mmccpp]

There's a graphic series (OK: comic book) called Planetary. Features a super human team who go around saving the world.  The team is led by Mr. Snow, an older guy with a truly excellent tailor.  Another member is Jakita, a young Mrs. Peel type, smart, but mostly muscle in a cat suit.

Turns out Snow was in love with Jakita's mother, an African princess/Nobel prize scientist or some such, but mother was in love with another dude.  Baby is born, and mother and other dude get killed for reasons of plot.  Snow rescues the baby and has her raised by very carefully selected foster parents.

Made for a genuine bond,  and they never got icky.

I kept hoping Red and Wiggy would turn out to be something similar.

[audreysurpKC]

if he is her father, theres a joke in there...something about: how could such a brilliant actor be related to such a terrible one...

[Julia]

if he is her father, theres a joke in there...something about: how could such a brilliant actor be related to such a terrible one...

 

Two words: Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Bort]

Two words: Gwyneth Paltrow.

Three more: Natasha Gregson Wagner

[ItCouldBeWorse]

My theory: Red and Mary-Louis Parker had a (ballet-dancing daughter) before they divorced. Then, Mary-Loise had a 2nd daughter, Elizabeth, with a 2nd husband/boyfriend.  Red's enemies tried to hurt him by destroying his family, setting the fire that killed his daughter and her step-father, Elizabeth's biological dad.  Elizabeth's mom, Mary-Louise Parker, wasn't home at the time of the fire.  Red saved Elizabeth, the younger sister of his dead daughter, and gave her to her adoptive father for her own safety. He did this on the condition that her mother, Mary-Louise Parker, never try to find her.   Mary-Louise Parker took on a new identity/went into Witness Protection and remarried.  For the last 20 years, she has kept her promise not to seek out Elizabeth.  Red had her blindfolded when handed over by Berlin so that she would not see and potentially recognize her daughter, Elizabeth, thus revealing Red's culpability in the destruction of Elizabeth's biological family. Red feels fatherly towards Elizabeth because she is the half-sister of his dead daughter: dead as a result of his own deeds.

[JoeSchwike]

I think from last night's conversation between Red and his ex that their (joint) daughter is still alive somewhere, but in hiding.  Naomi mentioned that 'she moved away, because she knew you would come looking for her, I don't even know where she is anymore'.  

[kaygeeret]

Any of the theories here would seem to be more creative than anything the show runners and writers will come up with.  Hope they read this forum so they can get a few ideas!

 

I am so over the 'great mystery' of our dim-witted, bumbling heroine.  End it please and let's get on with some good stuff!

[ToxicUnicorn]

I think when Red told Lizzy her father "died" in the fire, he meant his soul died and he was reborn as this guy with a new purpose and personality.  For whatever intents and purposes discussed above, he killed off his history.  Sort of like a born again virgin.

 

At least, that's the way I'm taking it.  I do like the theory upthread that his own ballet dancing daughter and wife were killed and he took revenge, but saved the innocent daughter from the house fire.  I'd be perfectly happy with that one, except it doesn't explain why he killed Sam.

[mrsdalgliesh]

I don't have a storyline to propose -- but I think this season's shift to talking about a specific not-Elizabeth daughter may be TPTB setting up Megan Boone's departure.  When the show started, it was All About Lizzy.  Whether or not she was Red's daughter, she was the center of everything.  Only one problem: MB couldn't keep up with Spader.  Maybe audience response/comment had a bit to do with it, or maybe it was just that obvious to TPTB (which includes Spader, right?).

 

So what to do?  Reset with another actress.  Give MB a storyline that can end with her dying in glory, or going into hiding, or going bonkers, whatever.  Set up an *actual* daughter for Red who has disappeared.  

[DrSpaceman]

I think when Red told Lizzy her father "died" in the fire, he meant his soul died and he was reborn as this guy with a new purpose and personality.  For whatever intents and purposes discussed above, he killed off his history.  Sort of like a born again virgin.

 

At least, that's the way I'm taking it.  I do like the theory upthread that his own ballet dancing daughter and wife were killed and he took revenge, but saved the innocent daughter from the house fire.  I'd be perfectly happy with that one, except it doesn't explain why he killed Sam.

I had considered that, its the Star Wars/Darth Vader theory. (Obi Wan at the beginning of Star Wars tells Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father......all true, he just forgot to add "metaphorically, of course, not literally")

I don't buy it though for some reason. She explicitly asks him at one point the question and he says no. Red can be evasive and frustrating and misleading but as far as we know he has never outright lied to her. In this way he reminds me of Q on Star Trek with Picard (and no I am not comparing the acting of Picard and lizzie) Q was an all powerful being trying in his own way to teach and mentor Picard, though often for his own benefit, but there is point where Data I believe points out Q is many things, but he is not a liar. I view Red the same way.

I think he is a relative but not her true father. Maybe uncle, stepfather, something, but not biologic father.

[Danielg342]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say definitively that Jon Bokenkamp and Co. have absolutely NO idea where they're going with this story. None...I mean, this is Hollywood...when have they ever had a long-form arc planned from start to finish? If Bruno Heller can admit that he had no idea who Red John was until a year and a half before he resolved the storyline- meaning for four and a half years he had no clue- then I think anything is possible.

 

Sure, we've got all these feints and implications that suggest that Red is Lizzie's father...but I don't trust Bokenkamp and his lazy batch of writers to follow along with that. The twist is just too "sexy" for Hollywood to ignore, and I can see it from a mile away. I could buy it if they come up with some other epic explanation for why Red loves Lizzie (or just one that makes sense), but given how haphazard the writing has been in this series, I have a feeling there won't be an explanation that won't be contrived.

 

While we're speculating, though, I'm going to make the case that Lizzie is No. 1 on The Blacklist. Why? We've seen Lizzie show criminal instincts that red himself guides her through ("Madeline Pratt"), Tom, too has an unhealthy obsession with her in the name of Berlin, and Lizzie seems to have the "Warrior Gene" that says someone has a "hidden criminal" ("Dr. Linus Creel"). Plus, I can't think of any "finale-worthy" twists that could possibly top something like that.

 

So that's what I'm going with...although I fully expect the show to let me down. Just like The Mentalist.

[ToxicUnicorn]

I love the idea (batted around in S2 E5 The Front thread) that Lizzie is some descendant of Berlin.  The story could go something like this, although I'm sure you all can improve on it:

 

Red found her first, through whatever means.  He knows of the legend of Berlin, but not who he is.  He knows he probably has crossed Berlin and so he cultivates Lizzie as some kind of future collateral.  He is responsible for setting up Tom in Lizzie's life, but Tom (for reasons I don't understand) is confused about who he is working for.  I don't know <insert some kind of elaborate nonsensical Red-Berlin doublecross here>.  Red's affection for Lizzie is in part projected fatherly wish fulfillment and partly because he does seem to regret the destruction of innocent lives, so he is actually nice to her while she's not in play.  The logical conclusion of this theory, of course, is that Red has to choose either to threaten Lizzie or not - wouldn't it be nice if he decides ultimately to shoot her in the head (with some regret) and then we find out his real game.  Oh well, one can dream.

[12catcrazy]

Did anybody catch the kind of throw away line from The Mombassa Cartel where when Red wants Lizzy to meet Peter Fonda he says something to her that Peter Fonda goes out with women who look like her, and then Lizzy says something and Red says something to the effect that the last woman Peter Fonda went out with looked more like him (Red) then her. 

 

Could have this been some kind of "clue" about a resemblance between Lizzy and Red? 

[Julia]

I think it was his most recent two who looked like Lizzie (which, in fairness, crazy mom first wife currently does not. I think, though, she must have been lovely back in the day. Only, facial expressions, so not like Lizzie).

[ottoDbusdriver]

I think it was his most recent two who looked like Lizzie (which, in fairness, crazy mom first wife currently does not. I think, though, she must have been lovely back in the day. Only, facial expressions, so not like Lizzie).

 

Red: "I knew Geoff would enjoy you, you're a dead ringer for the last 2 of his 3 wives"

Lizzie: "Oh, what did his first wife look like ?"

Red: "More like me than you I'm afraid"

[tinderbox]

Red: "I knew Geoff would enjoy you, you're a dead ringer for the last 2 of his 3 wives"

Lizzie: "Oh, what did his first wife look like ?"

Red: "More like me than you I'm afraid"

I thought Red was saying Geoff was bisexual and that one of his "wives" was male. heh heh This show brings out my stupidity!

[kaygeeret]

Oct 26 2014. 7:37 pm

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say definitively that Jon Bokenkamp and Co. have absolutely NO idea where they're going with this story. None...I mean, this is Hollywood...when have they ever had a long-form arc planned from start to finish? If Bruno Heller can admit that he had no idea who Red John was until a year and a half before he resolved the storyline- meaning for four and a half years he had no clue- then I think anything is possible

 

This is what I believe.  All the rest of the speculation gives WAY too much credit to the show runner and the writers.

 

No one on this dopey show has a plan - except of course, Mr. Spader.  I hope he gets more and more control over his character and the plotline.

 

God knows he can't do any worse.  For proof, the stupid, common, boring drug addiction plotline.  Been done, done again and overdone.  Born of a bored mind.

[ParadoxLost]

I don't watch this show enough to know if this is speculation or if its true and I missed an episode.

 

But Cooper doesn't really have a brain tumor right?  Its an elaborate plot to get him into the experimental treatment trial to get leverage over him to get him to do nefarious stuff. 

[calipiano81]

Forumfish, that theory has crossed my mind as well.

Edited May 2, 2015 by calipiano81

[Drusilla]

Once people know the real deal btwn Liz and Red, the show might lose it's total impetus. This is their golden secret, they are going to keep it secret for as long as possible.

[misstwpherecool]

The Darth Vader routine doesn't take Red out of the running just yet. I'm beginning to wonder if Red was a KGB plant like in The Americans or No Way Out. That's how he knows all these criminal & spy types. He might have being groomed to be a KGB spy but rejected formal training and career path mother Russia would've wanted. An affair with one of these spies who was Lizzie's mom? Liz has dark black hair the father looked like he greying brown or blonde hair? (issue not addressed or ignored in production?)

[kassygreene]

Posting here because the topic title seems to fit this best....

It has occurred to me that the principal reason the series concept fails, i.e. the instant and somewhat mindless adoration of Liz by everybody else, is that the show has the wrong setting.  It is early 21rst century post Cold War "thriller" with the mystery of just who is Liz and why does Red, and by extension everyone else, care?

It's the setting; DNA tests would establish paternity, background checks generally lead to better employment practices, and a modern setting means that nobody just drives from DC to NYC to western PA in minutes.   If this were correctly set in some fantasy/wizardry/magically invented world, the person of Liz would matter greatly as an idealized goal, and she could have all sorts of skills and powers without the reader wondering where did that come from?

Ach, it's just a thought I had to get out.  But this would be much easier to watch and like if that was the purpose of the show.  Tuning in just to see Reddington, Dembe, Mr. Kaplan (sob), Tom, and Baz (sniffle) is the only excuse I have.

[Brian Cronin]

Okay, here's what now worries me. If they write Liz off after next week's episode (presumably she becomes a fugitive for good, as I sincerely doubt that they would just kill her), then couldn't they seriously just avoid revealing just what Red's SPECIFIC connection to Liz is? For instance, they could have Red explain a whole lot of how he formed the Blacklist and stuff like that, but avoid telling us how he is SPECIFICALLY connected to Liz, as he could just tell HER and she would then leave with the knowledge, making HER happy but without us knowing the truth.

That seems very feasible, right? They could never do that if Liz was to continue on the show, but if they get rid of her, she can learn the truth on the way out. 

They are totally going to duck out on us somehow, aren't they?

[KittenPokerCheater]

4 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

They are totally going to duck out on us somehow, aren't they?

Of course they are.

Close up of Keane's face.
Keane: "Oh my god,"
Red:  I know, right? Sometimes I even impress myself.
Keane, dumbfounded and emotional
Red:  I'll be in the car.  Join me once you're done.
Red exits.
Building Explodes.

Season Ends.





 

[paigow]

[Interior: Bunker Command Center]

Red: See that countdown timer? Every 8 hours, we must press that big red button.

Liz: What if nobody pushes the button?

Red: J.J. Abrams takes over and replaces our flawless mythology with hack science fiction... 

 

[NeenerNeener]

It cracks me up that this conversation started in 2013 and here we are in 2021 still wondering.

[milkyaqua]

Except for those of us that didn't care in the first place.  The "Is Red her daddy," thing never mattered to me and still won't even if as I suspect along with others we never get an answer.

[Eri4891]

My opinion is that is going to be something completely different and in fact red might even be Liz mother.

[paigow]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:41 PM, milkyaqua said:

Except for those of us that didn't care in the first place.  The "Is Red her daddy," thing never mattered to me and still won't even if as I suspect along with others we never get an answer.

Everything is moot because the storyline will never be mentioned next season....

Facts:

• The real Raymond Reddington is unequivocally the biological father, but he died 30 years ago because Liz shot him in the neck
• The current Reddington impostor killed a Katarina imposter in front of Liz
• The current Reddington impostor has killed all the other parental figures except the real Katarina - who remains "in hiding"

Possible conclusions:

• Katarina underwent gender reassignment and became the current Reddington impostor - hiding in plain sight
• A previously unseen associate of Katarina agreed to become the current Reddington impostor 

[Puya]

Reymond is katrina rostova, actually katrina after the surgery changed her gender and became a man.

[paigow]

Red is bald for Season 9. Either a side effect of his treatment or just a clever disguise...

Ressler is super hairy... Either a deep cover assignment or just lazy now

Edited October 13, 2021 by paigow