S03.E08: To The Gates!

[rozen]

Scenes like these exemplify why Vikings are such a perfect war culture. People are pissed because they didn't succeed, not so much because anyone died. They're going to Valhalla anyway, right? So getting cut down fighting is fine for them, they just don't want it to be a total waste. Ragnar sacrificing men to set up Floki is not even that bad, since he's sending them off properly. 

 

I was half expecting it to turn out that the King had a patsy strap on his mask and had made a run for it, leaving his daughter to rally the troops alone. Pretty epic rallying cry when your own princess rolls out sans armor, within range of a thousand bloodthirsty vikings, to tell you to get your ass from behind the ramparts and kill already.

 

I half expect that if Lagertha had a reasonable chance of bearing more children, she would accept Karl and be satisfied with setting their kid up to rule "her" earldom. They are a decent pairing, he seems a better wartime commander, and as a former-farmer Lagertha understands what's actually important for long-term success. I thought the French would light that damn corridor on fire when Lagertha and Karl's people charged in there. They should have known better.

 

Geez, Floki is such a baby. Is he going to blame Athelstan when he stubs his toe now? "Even now, he reaches up beyond the grave to foil me." Glad that Helga gave him a piece of her mind and came out of it alive.

Edited April 10, 2015 by rozen

[bandella]

I was half-expecting for the French to light that damn corridor on fire when Lagertha and Karl's people charged in there. They should have known better.

This. For the life of me, I couldn't understand why they all went charging down the hall. I mean, they had to know something was amiss, right? Maybe they were hoping the walls had been breached enough that those soldiers had been pulled out to help defend against the larger viking force on the water, but did they really think they'd leave such a vital entry point so completely open? 

 

Much as it pains me to say it, I'm kind of glad that Lagertha didn't see it coming and had to be rescued from her own stubbornness/bravery/whatever. Don't get me wrong; it's still my life goal to one day be as awesome as she is. But given how perfect she's been throughout the series, she was kind of in danger of becoming a Mary Sue-type figure with no flaws, the one everyone loves. I'm glad to see that even the viking queen of my heart is human and is capable of bad judgment now and then. 

 

Someone back on the first page asked if the budget had gone up. I was thinking the exact same thing while watching this (actually, while watching the earlier scenes in Wessex, and particularly Paris, due to the gorgeous costumes). I remember watching the first couple episodes back in season one and laughing at the godawful CGI that was supposed to make it look like they were sailing on an open ocean when it was obvious they were in a "boat" in a pool. The production values now compared to then are just staggering. It's such a pretty show. Sometimes I think I watch it as much for the scenery and costumes as for the characters and plot.

 

As others have pointed out, I should clarify my earlier point about rooting for the Parisians. Initially, I was absolutely on their side. They were the victims of an unprovoked attack. I also had a hard time watching the raids on Lindisfarm and Northumbria in general back in season one for the same reason. But as the raid continued and it became obvious that the Franks were more than capable of defending themselves, I did start to feel bad for Team Vikings. Not enough to negate the fact that, yeah, they totally attacked a heavily fortified city without fully understanding the enemy and that their attack was unprovoked, but still.

Edited April 10, 2015 by bandella

[VillaVillekulla]

Were the Vikings saying "uff da!" as they tried to break down the gates with a battering ram, or was that just my half-crazed imagination? I actually felt like I needed even more subtitles than usual for this episode, between the Vikings' war cries and the French being...French.

 

I also loved Ragnar's "Beware the fury of the patient man."

[RiddleyWalker]

Were the Vikings saying "uff da!" as they tried to break down the gates with a battering ram, or was that just my half-crazed imagination? I actually felt like I needed even more subtitles than usual for this episode, between the Vikings' war cries and the French being...French.

 

I also loved Ragnar's "Beware the fury of the patient man."

"Liked" for "uff da!" (Which I'd never heard until moving to a place loaded with people of Norwegian ancestry.)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

More to add later, but I had to throw this out there...

 

Anyone else like that bit where the viking with the fox-head hat is laughing at the cross-bow bolt in his shoulder and then gets a bolt in his forehead? "That was awesome!"-- in my best Chris Farley voice.  ;)

That reminded of Saving Private Ryan, the soldier with the lucky helmet.

[RiddleyWalker]

I'm ambivalent about the whole Lagertha/Kalf arrangement. My first thought is a flashback to the Princess Bride."Good night, Kalf. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."  Maybe the question is what kind of relationship did Wesley and the Dread Pirate Roberts really have? I think I totally missed that….

 

Seriously, though. I can't see Lagertha being actually aroused by someone she totally hates and completely separate sexual pleasure and her desire for revenge. If she was a woman without other power, she could use sex as a weapon but she had other options to gain revenge if she wants. This is not at all like her dalliance with Ecgbert whose good points she could see even if she eventually saw his self-centeredness. She never had a reason to hate him so the sex made sense. 

 

Unless, she actually has a soft spot for Kalf, the sex for pleasure but eventually kill for revenge thing seems like a male fantasy thing to me. I just don't know of any woman who could be aroused but totally despise someone and want them dead. I may well be wrong, though. Female sexuality is quite a bit more complicated than that of the average male and I--alas--am no expert.

That reminded of Saving Private Ryan, the soldier with the lucky helmet.

Me, as well! 

 

I was just thinking that the battle scenes here were the best I'd seen since Saving Private Ryan. There have been some good  GOT battle episodes, but I think this beats "Blackwater" if only because it was so much better lit and I could follow the action.

Edited April 11, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[Haleth]

Wow! What an episode! They really broke the budget with that one. It was really movie quality. Incredible battle scenes. I'd love to see a behind the scenes feature for this epi.

[Crackers]

I just watched the corridor scene in slo-mo and alas, Horik's son was merely grazed by the arrow. Dang.

[magdalene]

One thing I really like about this show is that it sometimes manages to surprise me. For example Kalf is turning out much more interesting than I ever thought with just one episode.

 

Historically raiders and conquerors often are important because their drive and aggression changes cultures that may have become stagnant. That's why men like Alexander the Great and William the Conqueror and the Vikings are so significant. Otherwise you would have lame-ass rulers like that Frankish emperor just hold the status quo. Speaking of said emperor - lucky for him his daughter has the balls he so clearly lacks.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I just watched the corridor scene in slo-mo and alas, Horik's son was merely grazed by the arrow. Dang.

Damn, I really thought his punk ass was Dead.

[attica]

Props to the stunt team for Ragnar's multi-part Parkour fall off the ramparts. I was all: ow! oof! unh! yikes! 

[Bongo Fury]

Anyone else like that bit where the viking with the fox-head hat is laughing at the cross-bow bolt in his shoulder and then gets a bolt in his forehead? "That was awesome!"-- in my best Chris Farley voice.  ;)

 

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but are the fox head dude, and Rollo, and the other Vikings who go into battle bare chested, known as the Berserkers? Most of the Vikings go into battle with some sort of armor and/or a shield, but Rollo is always a minimalist, with just his big axe. And these 'berserkers' always seem to be the most aggressive fighters, I seem to remember some battle scenes with them jumping over/out of the shield wall to attack. Am I confusing this with fantasy literature I've read, or are these Vikings indeed being portrayed as berserkers?

 

Edit:

I did my own research and they are indeed Berserkers. The fox head is actually a wolf head. They also wore bear head and or pelts. This is a direct reference to Odin. And they did indeed eschew armor in combat. They were also fond of using hallucinogenic mushrooms before going into battle. So it seems our beloved Rollo is a Berserker.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Bongo Fury

[Ohwell]

I think Ol' Odo got lucky because I thought the woman who was eyeing him at court after he won the battle, was prettier than the princess he had been longing for.

[jnymph]

Yyyyyyeeeeooow !

As much as I hate Floki, I want to stand on a big ass platform thingy and make bizarre movements just like him after watching this episode.

Lagertha is the only woman on the planet that can tell some dude she's going to kill him; and yet get said dude to reciprocate with hot sex. For one night I'd love to be Lagertha.

Loved Helga in all essence telling Floki to fuck off.

Next week looks like spiritual Athelstan comes for a visit!!! Yay !!

I missed Ecbert a little bit this week.

As for the Princess & her incoherent troop rallying cries I had to turn on my closed captioning temporarily ! Glad I wasn't the only one... Heh

I was in the camp of half cheering for Paris/Half Vikings. Although... The battle scenes kept making me think the Vikings looked like morons. The war planning commission was an epic fail. ( looking at you Floki)

Only 2 more eps!!!

Damn I love this show!!!

Edited April 11, 2015 by jnymph

[Ria]

 

I was also rooting for Paris!! I don't know why -- maybe because Paris is cool, and it represents my civilization (modern civilization), and probably because they did nothing to the Northmen to warrant an attack. So there's that. There they are, minding their own business, with their pretty churches and women and children, and then these people who intend to pillage and rape attack. Yeah, on the side of the French.

 

Same here. Don't get me wrong, I do not want to see Ragnar, Rollo or Lagertha killed off. I want them to survive because I find them interesting characters and the heart of the show. However I'm not going to root for the Vikings to succeed in invading any city knowing they will kill women and children, rape and enslave and torture at will. I was firmly on the side of the Parisians. Besides, both the Princess and the Count show potential as characters exhibiting both brains and courage.

[insubordination]

 

He really is all about the long con.  And, apparently doesn't mind numerous Vikings dying in order to his sed revenge.  His love for Athelstan is strong

 

Indeed. Ragnar is grieving big.  His love for Athelstan  drives him and has more breadth and depth than even Floki's insanity.  I thought Travis Fimmel was just great watching everything unfold as it should (badly), until he saw his son and joined in.

 

It's all so deliciously outrageous.  I am loving Athelstan in death more than I did throughout S3.

 

If they don't have a huge budget, then they sure have some clever and imaginative people behind the scenes.  I was transfixed.

[BitterApple]

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm on Kalf's side with regards to the Earldom. Laegartha is a bad ass but she really has no emotional investment or ties to Hedeby. I think her becoming Earl had much to do with her wanting to prove her worth to Ragnar. All her relationships are in Kattegat, not Hedeby.

[Curious5]

If you go back to the soothsayer telling Rollo that Paris would be death but Rollo would survive and (I think he said) Rollo would be the new leader/king.  Rollo felt invisible and thus acted like it.

[magdalene]

I don't remember the seer telling depressed Rollo that he would be king. I remember that he told him basically to stop whining and then kind of grudgingly said if Rollo knew his fate he would be dancing naked on the beach.

[Stratego]

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm on Kalf's side with regards to the Earldom. Laegartha is a bad ass but she really has no emotional investment or ties to Hedeby. I think her becoming Earl had much to do with her wanting to prove her worth to Ragnar. All her relationships are in Kattegat, not Hedeby.

Recall Ragnar's comment to Laegartha [about Bjorn], "...doesn't need a title to lead...". Then Ragnar stared Laegartha down to emphasize his point.  i think this was Laegartha's motivation to accept Kalf's offer.

[LittleIggy]

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but are the fox head dude, and Rollo, and the other Vikings who go into battle bare chested, known as the Berserkers? Most of the Vikings go into battle with some sort of armor and/or a shield, but Rollo is always a minimalist, with just his big axe.

When I think of Rollo and his big axe, minimalist is the furthest word from my mind. ;-)

[HundFan]

Re the Berserker ? and Rollo: I heard him, bare-chested and apparently high as a kite, screaming "Berserker" as he whipped up his fellow Vikings right before the big attack. Plus, I saw Clive Standen, in a Vikings cast panel interview at ComCon (posted online) wearing a tee-shirt that actually said "Beserker" across the front.  I've read from other sources that these guys (and maybe gals) did in fact prep for combat with hallucinogenics, which made them both fearless and ferocious. So yes, Rollo was fully subscribed to portraying that segment of Viking war culture in the Parisian attack. And that, folks, is where the modern word "beserk" comes from. Kind of makes you want to use it judiciously, no?

[green]

No offense intended, but please speak for yourself. I find the Vikings morally superior to the English and the French in many ways. Amongst the Vikings, a simple farmer like Ragnar, a man with a vision of a better life for his people, can rise to be king and lead them to that better life. Amongst the Vikings a person (man or woman) can rise as high as their mind, their abilities, their ambition can take them. In Viking society, men and women stand together, to fight, to rule, to live. And it is the strong who rule.

 

As opposed to the E or F with their inbred hereditary rulers who hold their positions for no other reason than they won the birth lottery. The fine enlightened Europeans who professed that they were ordained at birth by god to rule and this justified their oppression of the common man and all manner of atrocities and corruption. And amongst the western europeans, religion is used as a club to beat people down the 'peasants' and to maintain the status quo of the ruling 'elite'.

 

Ragnar may be taking his people into war, but in their culture he is giving them the opportunity to reach Valhalla, the greatest gift he can give a Viking. And ragnar is right there fighting along side his people. Unlike the English or French kings who sit back on their horse watching the fight from a hilltop, or even worse cowering in the throne room. The E & F leave the horrors of war to others, while they reap all the glory when they win.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't sympathize with the English or French ONE BIT. They NEED the Vikings to help shake them out of the Dark Ages.

 

Actually according to the sagas the "legendary" Ragnar wasn't a simple farmer but the son of a ruler I believe.  And Saxon and Frank go getters could grab a throne at times by killing their ruler like this series' version of Ragnar does.  No lineage lasted forever.  Also Bjorn is Ragnar's heir apparent so we have a Viking line of royals in the making.  So it comes down to the same thing.  Different peoples at different stages of civilization.

 

Also Ragnar leads a near tribal army while kings lead small beginnings of nation states so they darn well better not be out on the battlefield.  That would be totally silly tactics especially when you have better equipped generals to do that sort of thing.  Again, different peoples at different stages of civilization.  I mean no Frankish soldier in their right mind would want Charles out their quivering on the battlements when Odo is obviously a far far more competent military leader.

 

As for Ragnar taking his people to war so they can reach Valhalla.  Guess that depends on your cosmological point of view as to whether there is a Valhalla or not.  Very much similar to your pov of a Christian heaven influences the actions of the Saxons and Franks.  For the purposes of this show I accept both to be real for the people who believe them to be real.  But doesn't say historically if they were real.  That is beyond my ability to determine.

 

And I don't know how much an individual Viking could rise in their society.  Being strong doesn't exactly make you a good person necessarily so I wouldn't personally want the strong just killing and seizing power left and right in a society I lived in.  And I do know I wouldn't want to be one of their slaves.  Especially a female one.

 

We will have to agree to disagree about the ability to sympathize or not with innocent peasants (Saxons, Franks, anyone) being slaughtered by an invading band of ruthless raiders attacking them for no reason at all.  I mean it is the peasants that suffered the most from Viking raids, not the royal folk inside their castles. 

 

Also the Vikings are considered to be one of the reasons the 800's were considered part of the Dark Ages.   It was their slow assimilation into European society and Christianity which helped shake Europe out of the Dark Ages and into the Middle Ages.  So we will have to agree to disagree again I guess.

 

Same goes with religion which I take you to mean Christianity as opposed to the Norse religion.  Many a ruler has used religion to benefit them.  (Even the Norsemen).   But the Christian church in Europe was often the one institution strong enough to prevent monarchs from doing anything they wanted and holding some of their more blood-thirsty ventures in check.  They were the medieval version of a primitive form of a checks and balances system and monarchs were more often than not battling the church more than using it.  Systems of rule, religion and societal relations regards same have always been a complicated and highly complex thing in history after all. 

 

Nothing much in history is really black and white.  Just shades of gray.  So though I respect your opinions I also have to respectfully disagree with some of the points.  Just not historically but even within the framework of this amazing series.  I mean how cannot anyone sympathize with terrified peasants trying to cross that covered bridge ahead of a raging band of attackers who want to slaughter them for nothing they ever did to them?   So yeah I sympathize with the Franks like the Saxons before them.

Edited April 11, 2015 by green

[HundFan]

Make that hallucinoGENS. I hate typos -- especially in my own posts!

[Bongo Fury]

 I mean how cannot anyone sympathize with terrified peasants trying to cross that covered bridge ahead of a raging band of attackers who want to slaughter them for nothing they ever did to them?

 

Well I certainly did sympathize with the peasants who were locked out of the gates of Paris by their own people, when they could have easily waited an additional 10 seconds to let them in without compromising the safety of Paris one bit. And really, is a peasant really that much different than a slave?

 

And speaking of a slave, and specifically Rollo having sex with the one early on in the show that is cited so often as a reason to look down on him, is Rollo any more despicable in this regard than say Thomas Jefferson?

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Absolutely! I kept thinking tomorrow she's going to be confessing about having dreams of that godless savage ravishing her.

Let's give the girl her due....she might be doing the ravishing:-) and Rollo wouldn't be objecting.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I am glad I just watched this episode this morning ... the battle scenes were over whelming.  I was starting to wonder if there was ever going to be dialogue.  I lost count of how many times I "asked" the TV...at what point do you pull back?

 

I have started watching with the closed captioning on, it helps.

[slf]

And speaking of a slave, and specifically Rollo having sex with the one early on in the show that is cited so often as a reason to look down on him, is Rollo any more despicable in this regard than say Thomas Jefferson?

 

 

Well, Rollo didn't have consensual sex with the slave girl, he raped her. And yes, he's despicable for it just like Jefferson was for raping Sally Hemings. 

[justawatcher]

You cannot judge history by modern morals. It doesn't work. Rollo and the slave girl or Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings was morally acceptable for those times. On one hand, you want Vikings to be an accurate representation of the time period. On the other, you want to judge a character for behaving in an 800's fashion with a 2015 set of morals.

 

You can't have it both ways. Do you want history or do you want political correctness?

[Captanne]

justawatcher, ITA -- with the caveat that it can be perfectly acceptable (in my little world) to acknowledge abhorrent behaviour based on objective views that apply across the board (child rape = bad, for one example) but it is not acceptable to judge that behaviour using contemporary standards.  Frex, judging the carving up of the world based on post-WWI Victorian standards is not something we do today (it looks bad) but in the late 19th and early 20th C was completely normal -- typically expected by those doing it and unexpected by those on the receiving end.  Israel/Palestine I'm lookin' at you.

 

ANYway, yet another episode of me saying, "You suck, Floki and stop that weird arm waiving you strange actor, you" but that is only my opinion and constant vocalizing to no one in particular.  I'm like a broken record when the show is on.  I loved the opening scene on top of the siege tower but then he had to do that Karate Kid Stork pose with his arms that made me actually laugh.  So, that happened.  Took me right out of the moment.

 

The episode screams "higher budget than we've ever had" and I appreciate it to no end.  I adore this series.

 

To give the actor and Floki credit, for once or twice here, the middle part of the episode with him showing his true cowardly, shitty colours (which, to be honest he has shown consistently through the series which is why I have loathed his character -- so black and white, no thought into it) was wonderful.  The actor got Floki's shock, fear, utter unbelief, inability to assume responsibility, making it all about him, blaming a man he murdered for his own troubles (speaking ill of the dead is one of the "I'm a shithead" no brainers -- like kissing and telling, both are unbelievable, yellow, sleazy things to do in my honour code - maybe the Vikings speak ill of the dead with no repercussions but I have never read that anywhere.)

 

The way all of the above was a slow, dawning realization on Floki was really well done and I give all credit to the actor.  You can write and direct that shit all day but it ultimately comes down to the performance and the actor really sold it.  :-)

[Captanne]

I'm going on because there was more to this episode than Floki.  Ragnar -- oh, RAGNAR.  I just cannot for the life of me get over Travis Fimmel, Australian Underwear Model and Tarzan -- and RAGNAR.  Where did this actor come from?!  He's amazing.  I love his ticks and fits.  I love his gravity.  He is really the Conquering King.  When he finally came off that boat (or whatever) and entered the fray with Bjorn and was on the top of the parapet looking at Count Odo -- the two of them instantly knew they were confronting royalty (the men behind the offence and defense) -- it was just amazing.  The presence  that Travis Fimmel brings to Ragnar is physical and beautiful to behold.  It's visceral.  I love it.

 

Hello, Athelstan.  Nice to know you're still around.  I also loved the talk at the end.  Ragnar is completely exhausted and chooses to commiserate with his dear friend.  I really liked that.  And Fimmel pulled it off.   I saw complaints about it here (being too long, being unnecessary) before I saw the episode so I was leery -- but I didn't think it was too long at all, I thought Fimmel's performance was great and it was wholly appropriate.  He's bleeding out of his penis and mouth, he gets some time to himself in a garden, having a rest and talking to dead friends.  We get to grant him that.

 

It also served its purpose - we know that Ragnar can suffer a terrible defeat and still come out swinging, "Paris is as beautiful as you said* and I will defeat her."

 

*There was a distinct moment during the battle when Ragnar knew they'd lost and he looked out over the city almost lovingly.  I noticed it and wondered why.  During the speech to Athelstan I see why -- he really does love the beauty of this amazing capital.

 

(Whether it's love and beauty, is open for debate.  That's my impression.  He could be admiring the richness of the city and the potential booty.)

 

As for Lagertha, Rollo and Bjorn -- great all the way around.  Porunn is still doing the Viking post partum dance and that's fine.  At least they gave her a nod in a very busy episode.

[millennium]

Disappointing episode but not so much the content as the beyond ridiculous 5 minutes content, 10 minutes commercials format.  Seriously????  I'm going to stop watching this live and just stream it.

 

I just watched the last three episodes on demand.  The first two I sailed through with only minimal commercials, but the latest episode was nearly unbearable with the commercial breaks.   I guess advertisers drop off as the episodes age. 

[Ankai]

What exactly, does or did "Uff da" mean? I looked at the Wikipedia page and, while I do not doubt its accuracy, I do doubt its helpfulness in whatever context it may have had in this episode.

 

The scene with Ragnar and "Athelstan" at the end got me raising my eyebrows the first time, but it sort of made more sense when I read someone's speculation around what might happen. That the disastrous attack was not simply a means to punish Floki, but phase one of a bigger plan. Maybe a plan that does not necessarily involve destroying the city to take it.

 

The battle, though epic, was a little odd, in my opinion. Maybe I had missed something in the planning scene in the previous episode, but Lagertha, Kalf, and Erlendur seemed to have about as many warriors with them as Ragnar had ships. Sure, perhaps some of those ships were working with skeleton crews, but still...Were the two teams supposed to be so numerically unbalanced? I was surprised that the land attackers would simply rush into the corridor despite it obviously being a trap. Seriously, those slits in the walls could have had archers or anything. Lagertha was far from the front of the group at that time, though, so she probably would have started running away half a second after Kalf surprise hit her.

 

The French counter-attack seemed to come a little late on both sides. Granted, to have come too early would have made for a much shorter scene and everything was moving quickly already, but it still seemed late. The soldiers fighting Lagertha's group waited a while before opening the floor doors and throwing rocks at the...cage? And couldn't the oil have been prepared and dropped on the towers at any time?

 

I think that I understood...most...of what the princess said, mostly because she sort of sounds like how one of my French uncles (RIP) talked. That said, I am pretty sure that the actress, though French, does not talk like that at all. I saw a clip of her from something else and she sounds more like my cousins. I can imagine that the director had told her to "French it up" and, as she had no idea what that meant, decided to lean really hard on the Rs.  

 

I think that someone brought this up in a previous episode thread, but I am a little curious now. Would Old Frankish be that much more difficult for a Norseman to learn than Old English? Yes, it would probably lean harder on the Latin, but wouldn't both Frankish and English have the similar general origins of Celtic, Latin, and Germanic?

[green]

Well I certainly did sympathize with the peasants who were locked out of the gates of Paris by their own people, when they could have easily waited an additional 10 seconds to let them in without compromising the safety of Paris one bit. And really, is a peasant really that much different than a slave?

 

And speaking of a slave, and specifically Rollo having sex with the one early on in the show that is cited so often as a reason to look down on him, is Rollo any more despicable in this regard than say Thomas Jefferson?

 

Actually modern archeological aided historians research seems to suggest that medieval peasants didn't have as bad a life in many ways compared to the old concepts from 19th and 20th century historians.  Their homes weren't run down hovels a la Hollywood but fairly stout and sturdy dwellings with well used fire pits.  Plenty of indications that beer was widely available as well as wine and plentiful food includign meat which many past historians doubted peasants had access to since it is viewed more as a luxury food.

 

There were far more church feast days.  Tons actually all of which actually involved feasts provided free to the locals by the supervising vassals.  Plus Sundays off of course.  They had far more days off then paid holidays for modern workers in America.  Also, except for harvest time when even the vassals and nobles joined in on the manual work, they seemed to have worked far less than 40 hours a week as well.  And there was a social contract where the peasants did their role and the rulers and soldiers did theirs risking their lives to protect the peasants as well as themselves. So yeah European peasants on the whole had far better lives than a slave.

 

I'd say again this has more with where different societies are in their evolution.  Similar to Chinese and Japanese societies of that time and even later neither of which were Christian.  It just makes sense in a time when raiding Vikings or Mongols or whoever can swoop down that the medieval feudal construct (Eastern or Western versions) worked the best then to protect and support the most people. 

 

In Europe the era of a Pax Romana was way over and the various European ethnic groups were scrambling for basic security.  The right to life free of someone putting an arrow in your back was the first step to a person begin able to live free as in the live bit.  Only when you get past the need of basic security can you have the leisure to get fancy about rights and constitutions and upper mobility etc.  Add in the inability for many rulers to even read let alone peasants and no printing press to make books affordable anyway and you don't have avenues for growth happening as yet.  History is always a work in progress.

 

Did the Vikings have more say in some daily matters?  Sure.  But more because they were still at a glorified version of a tribal state where the numbers were so much smaller and everyone pretty much knew everyone else in a small village fiefdom.  But we see now the Vikings becoming more united so the numbers have suddenly exploded in this Paris campaign.  So instead of everyone discussing war plans at The Thing they are now calling war councils of leaders while the common man foot soldiers aren't included any more.

 

20th century version: Jefferson had a mistress though one who, if free, would not have chosen that path in life.  But even that is old history.  Some recent studies seem to indicate it wasn't Thomas Jefferson but a relative (cousin was it?) who had the forced affair.  Either way it obviously wasn't a good.  It was wrong.  And so was the treatment of Viking slaves being raped by any and every man that wanted to rape them.  Still don't see your point.  People are people in all cultures and there are major failings in all cultures including the Norse one you had painted as being superior for the common man.

 

As far as the 3 or 4 peasants not making the closing of the doors?  Just a typical Hollywood trope... door slamming on terrified villagers/peasants/settlers etc.  In reality the peasants, having seen Viking ships sailing leisurely up the Seine and camping outside the city, would have fled into Paris way before then.  Still in terror but not in Hollywood/dramatic license terror.

[BitterApple]

Given that historical accounts of Viking raids have them killing clergy, women and children I'm not so sure there is any moral high ground here. The Vikings were also prolific slave traders, so again, it depends on which culture you consider to be the lesser of two evils. The world was just an incredibly violent place and human life held minimal value across the board.

As for this show I can't help but root for everyone: Ragnar, Laegartha, Ecbert, Gisla etc. They're all intriguing in their own ways.

[Danez]

A fantastic episode, breathless fighting that went on and on. After we have watched so many wins to get a defeat via the Parisians was a bit of a shock.

Onward and upward!

[Bongo Fury]

Still don't see your point.  People are people in all cultures and there are major failings in all cultures including the Norse one you had painted as being superior for the common man.

 

Puzzling. You claim to not see my point but then you reiterate it quite concisely.

 

My original reply refutes your claim that 'everyone' knows the Vikings were wrong morally and ethically. Your obscure revisionist historical sources aside, my post showed cases where the Vikings were superior to the English and the French. Were they superior in every way, No. Were they always better in the cases I described, again No. No culture is black and white, all are shades of gray. Even highly respected individuals like the founding fathers of the United States have questionable behavior in their past. 

 

And I also categorically reject your claim that the Christian church was a restraining force in Dark Ages Europe. The church was one of the most corrupt and morally bankrupt organization in history. Just look at the Crusades, barbarism and atrocities on such an epic scale that the Islamic world even today, hundreds and hundreds of years later, hasn't forgotten nor forgiven. Just as I expect hundreds and hundreds of years from now Jews will not have forgotten nor forgiven the Holocaust.

 

And for those criticizing the Vikings for murdering innocent women and children ...

At least the Viking made their intentions plainly known. People knew when the Vikings showed up, they needed to flee if they wanted to live. Count Odo said as much, they knew the Vikings were going to come. He even tried to get the local rulers to fortify their communities and make it impossible for the Vikings to attack Paris. But the nobles thought only of their personal interests and in doing so left the country vulnerable to invasion. Contrast this with the English, who feigned friendship with the Vikings and King Eckbert promised to protect the Viking settlers. Only to then send Athelwulf to slaughter all the women, children and old people when the Viking warriors had left. Killing innocents is wrong, but there are degrees, and promising them safety to lure them into the slaughter is worse than what the Vikings did. At least the Vikings were honest about it.

[millennium]

Floki needed to die in this episode.  Painfully.

 

I'm sick of the character.   I'm doubly sick of the actor.

 

That said, do the Vikings have an inexhaustible supply of men and resources?   Every raiding party they go on, they have fresh redshirts to throw at the enemy.    After the failed sack of Paris and the heaps of bodies laying at the foot of the city walls, I would have thought their numbers decimated.   But apparently not.

Lagertha is the only woman on the planet that can tell some dude she's going to kill him; and yet get said dude to reciprocate with hot sex. For one night I'd love to be Lagertha.

 

Well, you know Kalf was thinking, "She's going to try to kill me anyway, I may as well enjoy this while I can."

 

On the other hand, after a night of hot sex with Lagertha, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to be killed, because I don't think anything else life has to offer would quite measure up.

 

She looked like a rock star as she and her troops marched on Paris.

Edited April 12, 2015 by millennium

[RiddleyWalker]

Thought I'd post this GIF I found in some comments on another site. I just love this bit and Rollo's reaction is great--"Serves you right….moron"

 

http://i.imgur.com/Ky3Ogk3.gifv

Edited April 11, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[Captanne]

Ridleywalker, I must have watched this episode in slow motion because I caught so much in the battle scenes and I usually feel like I've been watching something entirely different, let alone caught what others saw.  (Like that moment Ragnar looked over Paris and clearly fell in love, even while realizing his defeat.)

 

I saw this moment, too, as though it was in slow motion.  Ignore what's actually going on (arrow-to-the-head), it's really hilarious.

[bandella]

I think that someone brought this up in a previous episode thread, but I am a little curious now. Would Old Frankish be that much more difficult for a Norseman to learn than Old English? Yes, it would probably lean harder on the Latin, but wouldn't both Frankish and English have the similar general origins of Celtic, Latin, and Germanic?

All those are Indo-European languages, but they split off into very different groups. Romance languages (Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) are quite different from Germanic languages (German, obviously, but also Dutch, various Scandinavian languages, English, etc). At the time in which this show takes place, Germanic languages, particularly Old Norse, were still very similar to Old English, so they would have been able to understand each other reasonably well. Probably not fluently, but they shared more similarities than differences. Old French, meanwhile, was very different, simply because it evolved out of an entirely different branch of the I-E language family. Essentially, Romance languages spread west and somewhat east (Romania, I think), while Germanic languages spread north and northwest. Many of the Saxons Ragnar and co. have interacted with at this point aren't that far removed from their mainland predecessors. In a pre-telecommunications, pre-mass media world, linguistic changes were much slower to take hold than they are now. 

 

tl; dr: Old Norse and Old English were much, much more similar to each other than Old Norse and Old French. For Old Norse and Old English, I'd imagine it's a bit like trying to read Chaucer in the original Middle English. It's not impossible, but it definitely takes some close attention, and there are some things you're just not going to be able to understand. Meanwhile, for Old Norse and Old French, it'd be like trying to figure out a Latin text without any prior Latin experience whatsoever, not even the borrowed words that eventually came into the English language via the Normans. 

 

For trivia's sake, I was in the midst of studying German when I had my first exposure to Beowulf in the original Old English. I was pretty surprised that it was easier for me to read than others in my class -- not because it made any sense whatsoever in English as we know it today, but solely because I was studying German hardcore at the time. 

[TobinAlbers]

While Ragnar was telling Rollo and Lagertha to quit their fretting over injured Bjorn, I loved that earlier when Ragnar saw Bjorn start to climb the ladder it snapped him out of just watching it all go down and into action. While there may have been a teensy bit of 'Oh, no you are not gonna steal my thunder sonny boy!' making Ragnar leap towards that ladder, the look on his face as he saw his son go up on a doomed venture was completely 'Oh, shit! No!' It was totally the sheer terror of a father watching his son go off to certain doom. Only when Bjorn look down to see Ragar below him did Ragnar's expression change to a proud 'That's my boy! Now get on up that ladder. I got your back!'

Basically if it came to it, he was going to go down swinging with his son. Just loved that sequence.

[pasdetrois]

 

Were the Vikings saying "uff da!" as they tried to break down the gates with a battering ram, or was that just my half-crazed imagination?

Part Norwegian here. I thought I heard it too but decided it was my imagination. I grew up hearing my family's elders muttering "uff da" whenever they lifted something heavy or tackled an annoying task.

 

 

What exactly, does or did "Uff da" mean?

 

It's a mild pseudo profanity, uttered when annoyed, surprised, etc. Every Scandinavian-themed gift ship in Minnesota has it printed on everything. Over the years people have given me coffee mugs, t-shirts, key chains...

 

 

 

Every time we heard the princess with the heavy accent my brain went straight to Monty Python's French soldier standing on the ramparts and insulting the English. Shouted in a heavy French accent: "I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

 

I'm mildly distracted by Odo's bizarre wig.

 

Lagertha's bathing costume could have been dropped into the 1970s. Her would-be paramour is very handsome. I guess they shall have the ultimate S&M situation.

 

Kudos to the production crew for this amazing episode.

[justawatcher]

Someone refresh my memory of what the seer/traveler said about Paris- the dead men will get you in, or something like that. What was the wording? Because originally we speculated it would be with Ragnar as a monk, etc but that won't happen now as he and Odo have seen each other as well as Rollo, Lagertha, etc could be identified. But, there are a lot of dead Vikings floating in the river and laying in the dirt and the hallway. Maybe those are the dead that will get them into Paris?

[Ankai]

So they were yelling "Oh! We are annoyed and surprised!" over and over?

All those are Indo-European languages, but they split off into very different groups. Romance languages (Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) are quite different from Germanic languages (German, obviously, but also Dutch, various Scandinavian languages, English, etc). At the time in which this show takes place, Germanic languages, particularly Old Norse, were still very similar to Old English, so they would have been able to understand each other reasonably well. Probably not fluently, but they shared more similarities than differences. Old French, meanwhile, was very different, simply because it evolved out of an entirely different branch of the I-E language family. Essentially, Romance languages spread west and somewhat east (Romania, I think), while Germanic languages spread north and northwest. Many of the Saxons Ragnar and co. have interacted with at this point aren't that far removed from their mainland predecessors. In a pre-telecommunications, pre-mass media world, linguistic changes were much slower to take hold than they are now. 

I am not doubting you, but I am just trying to get clarification, particularly since it seems as if the French and English at that time seemed to come from the same sets of peoples, though from different subsets. The Gauls were Celts, right? And the Franks were a Germanic tribe like the Saxons. And the Romans had control over both Gaul and the British Islands for a time. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Ankai

[Haleth]

tl; dr: Old Norse and Old English were much, much more similar to each other than Old Norse and Old French. For Old Norse and Old English, I'd imagine it's a bit like trying to read Chaucer in the original Middle English. It's not impossible, but it definitely takes some close attention, and there are some things you're just not going to be able to understand. Meanwhile, for Old Norse and Old French, it'd be like trying to figure out a Latin text without any prior Latin experience whatsoever, not even the borrowed words that eventually came into the English language via the Normans.

 

I learned that simply put, modern English evolved after the Conquest from the Norman/French aristocracy having to communicate with the Saxon/Germanish peasants.  Two very different languages melded together.  That's why modern English is roughly half Latin and half German.

[RiddleyWalker]

Someone refresh my memory of what the seer/traveler said about Paris- the dead men will get you in, or something like that. What was the wording? Because originally we speculated it would be with Ragnar as a monk, etc but that won't happen now as he and Odo have seen each other as well as Rollo, Lagertha, etc could be identified. But, there are a lot of dead Vikings floating in the river and laying in the dirt and the hallway. Maybe those are the dead that will get them into Paris?

Hi @Justawatcher,

The Seer told Ragnar, “I see that not the living, but the dead, will conquer Paris.” There's some speculation about how that might play out on the "Speculation and Spoilers" thread with some thoughts based on history and/or things recorded in the sagas, some of which involve the bodies now lying around and some involving Ragnar as a monk (which can still be in play, actually).

Edited April 12, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[Quinzee]

Not spoiled, but I'm thinking with all the dead bodies in the Seine and inside the walls, disease is going to get all the Franks holed up inside. Water is contaminated...decomposing bodies. Does the plague exist in these times? Won't it affect the Vikings as well? Anyway, that's what The Seer's prophecy pinged for me...

[RiddleyWalker]

Not spoiled, but I'm thinking with all the dead bodies in the Seine and inside the walls, disease is going to get all the Franks holed up inside. Water is contaminated...decomposing bodies. Does the plague exist in these times? Won't it affect the Vikings as well? Anyway, that's what The Seer's prophecy pinged for me...

Could be… 

I just think that's a bit too passive for Ragnar who will actively use the dead in some fashion. I think he already has his "Plan B" ready in his mind after the failure of traditional methods. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Could the dead who conquer Paris be Athelstan?  Floki failed...could Athelstan be the bridge between the Vikings (Ragnar knows the lord's prayer, Rollo was baptised) and the French?  

 

Lots of us are waiting for Rollo to hook up with Princess Gisella....she seems to be devout (she might be attracted to Rollo but she's not going to jump into bed with him) and to have the last word on who she marries...at the very least Rollo is going to have to promise to let her raise the kids Catholic and since he would be better off staying in Paris as a king consort than going back to Kattegatt where he's playing Jan Brady to Ragnar's Marcia and then creepy uncle to an ascendant Bjorn he's going to be fine with it.