S03.E18: Public Enemy

[JenMcSnark]

Hey folks,   If you haven't seen the episode please don't ask for recaps from other posters here.  You can wait to read the PTV recap that goes up tomorrow morning, PM with your friends...or (gasp) you can watch the episode and risk Butterness!

 

 

I like Felicity's Mom.  She brings the Levity because god knows there's a fair amount of Angst running around on this show.

I chose to risk Butterniss!  It sounded delicious!  ;-)

[calliope1975]

Removing John Diggle and Felicity Smoak from the opening is BS. 

 

I still have no idea why Ra's wants Oliver to take over the LOA. I'd think there's some long con here but every time I've thought these writers were going to flip the script - nope, they haven't. Just as Quentin is only focusing on Oliver instead of everyone else, including his own daughter, that is also breaking the law. Including himself as an accessory. At least PB is good at scenery chewing. 

 

Ray is no Disney prince. Crazy Eyes Palmer is way more Gaston. I bet he sings his own song he made up about how awesome he is. That's all I'll say about him.

 

I liked seeing Celina Jade again, but Shado's twin she never, ever mentioned before? Nope. 

 

I wish Mama Smoak had more to do, but I liked seeing her again. She brought a bit of much needed levity even if it doesn't meet the tone of the show at the moment. I suppose Felicity was stuck in the hospital because EBR was also filming The Flash at the same time, but I still didn't like it. 

[lion10]

I've got nothing at all against Brandon Routh, but I kind of wish Ray was still in the hospital.  I don't know why, but this was the first episode where I was legitimately annoyed by Ray's presence.  Probably because Oliver's secret identity was revealed but instead of paying more attention to the main story, we got sucked into more love triangle BS.  I bet Felicity says "I love you" to Ray just to further the angst.  My heart hurt when Quentin punched Oliver.  Oliver's been busting his ass to make the city safer and he gets punched in the face?  I also like how Oliver initially said "Diggle, you've been with me from the start".  I like how the show will acknowledge that for a while, it was just Oliver and Diggle out there fighting.

 

And I hop Oliver has to do some major PR after this to convince people that he's not the Arrow.  The first time you're arrested for murder, it could all be a big misunderstanding.  The second time you're accused of murdering someone, something's definitely up. 

[quarks]

And why would Lance just believe R'as? At least when Slade spilled the beans to Laurel last year she actually, you know, investigated and found proof Slade was telling the truth.

 

 

Last year, I think Laurel had some genuine reasons to question whether or not Oliver was the Hood/Arrow - notably that the second she announced that she was going after the Hood in her capacity as an ADA, Oliver didn't pull the "Uh, well, I'm him" card on her, which might have stopped the investigation. She was also under the impression that she genuinely knew Oliver, and this was an entirely different side to him that she had to reconcile, not to mention try to figure out why he hadn't told her even right before/right after they slept together.  That probably was one of her biggest questions: "Well, if Oliver really is the Arrow, why didn't he mention it after we got together, however briefly?"   Plus, Laurel had never suspected, much less believed, that Oliver Queen was the Hood/Arrow.  She made several strong arguments why he couldn't be.  And Laurel lacked a pretty significant piece of information: that Sara was the Black Canary.  And although she knew that Felicity worked for Oliver, she didn't know that Felicity also worked with the Arrow.  She didn't know that Roy was the red costumed guy with Oliver.

 

Quentin doesn't have any of those reasons. He and Oliver have never been friends; Quentin's on decent terms with the Arrow (well, was) not Oliver. Sara told him her identity pretty quickly. What didn't make much sense last season was that Quentin knew Sara was the Black Canary, knew that the Black Canary was the Arrow's partner, and knew that Sara was dating Oliver. He knew that Felicity worked for Oliver as his EA and worked with the Arrow. He knew Roy Harper was Arsenal and dating Oliver Queen's sister.  

 

Also, he could see Oliver's mask, so he could definitely see Oliver's jawline and be able to recognize that.

 

Meanwhile, over on Flash, Cisco listed Oliver as one of the potential Arrows, so it wasn't that difficult even for people who had never met Oliver Queen to figure out.

 

We kept asking, how can Quentin not know at this point?  So Ra's making this accusation is really more Ra's putting together several things that finally click and make sense for Quentin. 

[wonderwall]

I missed the first five minutes, what opening are you guys talking about? The previously stuff? Or...?

[BkWurm1]

So is Akio safe now? Because that would be one good thing to come out of this episode.

 

Why isn't Laurel owning up to being the one to decide to keep  Sara's death a secret?

 

Since it was said when Donna was encouraging Felicity to go get the nanotech and inject Ray and not be scared, it could also be that her father did something brave but illegal.

 

I am so over people telling Oliver he loves Felicity or telling Felicity she loves Oliver but nothing ever happens. Soap operas move faster than this.

Not me, I was very happy to have someone tell Felicity she loves Oliver.  It's been a verrrry long time since we've had her emotions spelled out.  I'm sick to death of Oliver saying why they can't be together but Felicity's no I love you back to Ray was an extremely welcome moment. 

 

You would think Roy's claim would be dismissed (though he'd likely go to jail for other reasons) but this is Arrow.  The writing has been as dumb as many of the characters have been this season.

 

I'm guessing it's the problem of him confessing to everything.  Quentin knows it's crap but if they have someone that is making a full confession and was caught redhanded oops, make that green, a good lawyer or Laurel should be able to get Oliver off or at least released.  TV law. 

He even put out arrest warrants for all of the Arrow's associates.  Does that mean "only if they are in costume"?

I think only if they are caught is more what he was saying. 

 

Judging by Felicity's reasons for wanting to be with Ray... They're so superficial. Yikes!

Well, yeah?  But it was ok for her to want to play it safe on the surface after what she's been through this year.  She probably thought she'd eventually feel something deeper. 

 

I had to laugh at Mama Smoak's 'You lit up like a Christmas tree' line to Felicity. Oliver was lit up in that scene, Felicity looked over the day already. Was there a scene after that we missed?

Fanwank, Felicity spent her teens Goth and stoic and MS learned to read tiny micro expressions.  :)

 

So, I have not gotten to see the episode yet (looong day at work), but I had to take a peak here. And let me get something straight...

 

Did they seriously put TinCan Iron Man (apparently known as Ray) in the opening? 

 

Felicity isn't even in the opening credits anymore.  Ray got the "along the way other's joined" line.  Don't like but he's going away, he's going away, he's going away. 

[BkWurm1]

The entire hospital sequence, right down to injecting people with robots. For which even I barely have words. Full credit to all four actors doing their damnedest to save it, but I don't think a Ray subplot has ever felt this disconnected to the entire rest of the episode - even the Shado twin flashback was at least related to the theme of the episode, which Ray's subplot wasn't, and was related to previous events on the show, even if, again, Ray's subplot wasn't. But even apart from the disconnect and the glaring change in tone, with those scenes playing as comedy as every single other character on the show was once again going through massive trauma, it was ridiculous, and that's before I get to the nanobots.

 

I was able to reconcile the tone of the episode better this week than most of the previous runs because several times you could see Felicity put on a game face before she went in to see Ray.  She's look horridly worried about what was going on in the news and then walk into Ray's room all smiles but at least this time I saw the transition. 

 

Also I didn't mind Ray's silliness.  He just took an arrow to the chest, dude is seriously doped up to the gills. 

 

I really enjoyed MS.   She was over the top and kind of nutty but also shrewd and very supportive.  I know she said Felicity lit up like a Xmas tree but she's the mom, I trust she saw something.  And cheesy or not the back and forth of  Felicity saying Donna only met Oliver for like "ten seconds" and Donna coming back, no hesitation, "I knew it in five." got from me a big old awwwww!

[paigow]

She didn't pierce it though.  Looked like a hypo-spray, swoosh, like on Star Trek.

This would render Felicity's level of medical knowledge irrelevant. "Put this anywhere on my neck and push the button"

[lexicon]

Fuck off, Laurel. I'm sorry. She is just the worst no matter what.  I cannot believe she still won't take any responsibility for a fucking thing.

 

I literally tweeted " Fuck off Laurel" at that. What a total and utter lack of self awareness.

 

Honestly I've had it with the Lances and the 'it's all about me' drama, the show would be better off without them and their melodramatic BS. Neither one of them took an ounce of responsibility for their actions. Lance knows LL is BC but doesn't make a move against her, knows SL was in the LOA but blames OQ for her death. Even if I bought his convoluted theory about her going on the gambit leading her to the LOA and her eventual death, Oliver didn't force her on the boat. She went willingly. She bears responsibility for that choice. Oliver was a douchebag yes but he wasn't a freaking kidnapper. Just as he didn't force Lance to work with him, that was Quentin's choice as well so to seek to impose that on Oliver now is ludicrous beyond belief.

Edited April 2, 2015 by lexicon

[paigow]

Ray is no Disney prince. Crazy Eyes Palmer is way more Gaston. I bet he sings his own song he made up about how awesome he is. That's all I'll say about him

He is that way because he is simultaneously playing Le Fou

[BkWurm1]

Now Quentin. 

 

Wasn't PB great?  I loved that when Ra's drops his supposed truth bomb that it looked like Quentin absolutely was NOT surprised.  I also get why Lance is so focused on the Arrow. Every bad thing can go back to Oliver like a Kevin Bacon Game.   Of course it's not really fair cause he's ignoring all the good done too, but he's not really wrong with what he's saying, just not looking at the big picture.  Being mad about Sara on the island is just a continuation of the whole.   

 

It also seems clear that part of Lance is still struggling with his crusade to bring down the Arrow or at least he was already clearly looking for a way not to punish the "Arrow's" associates and not just Laurel.  He could have given out Felicity and Roy's names at any time and while he was willing to arrest them in the moment, he wasn't targeting them.  He included them in the list of people that Oliver has made a victim and I think that's why he felt justified in not going after them unless he had to. 

 

Which made the visit to Oliver pretty dumb for at least Diggle since I think Diggle was actually the one that Lance didn't know about.  Roy and Felicity were already known so it wasn't such a risk for them to visit but Diggle should have stayed away even if I loved having them all there.  It was so pointed to me that Laurel sent them in alone.  This was Oliver's team.

 

Wish Roy was feeling a bit less in need of punishment.  I worry about what will happen to him in prison.  :(

 

Did the timeline feel wonky in regards to Roy and Thea?  Didn't she say something about that last time they'd had sex was right before the mirikuru soldiers showed up...but I thought they got together two weeks ago when Malcolm came home and crashed on her couch?? 

[JenMcSnark]

Removing John Diggle and Felicity Smoak from the opening is BS. 

 

 

This pissed me off almost more than anything else this season.  Of course they had to put Laurel and Ray in when Oliver talks about "others [who] have joined my quest" or whatever.  I mean, what the actual fuck. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by JenMcSnark

[steeledwithakiss]

I literally tweeted " Fuck off Laurel" at that. What a total and utter lack of self awareness.

 

Honestly I've had it with the Lances and the 'it's all about me' drama, the show would be better off without them and their melodramatic BS. Neither one of them took an ounce of responsibility for their actions. Lance knows LL is BC but doesn't make a move against her, knows SL was in the LOA but blames OQ for her death. Even if I bought his convoluted theory about her going on the gambit leading her to the LOA and her eventual death, Oliver didn't force her on the boat. She went willingly. She bears responsibility for that choice. Oliver was a douchebag yes but he wasn't a freaking kidnapper. Just as he didn't force Lance to work with him, that was Quentin's choice as well so to seek to impose that on Oliver now is ludicrous beyond belief.

So true! Lance and LL lack so much self awareness and for people working in the justice system to be so self centered and unprofessional it's scary. Stop making it all about you and your family drama!

Apart from that I'm glad Mama Smoak got Felicity to open her eyes and I hope she'll come back next season. Roy sacrificing himself for Oliver was heartbreaking. I'm scared now for him, getting locked up with people he helped put in there. It's like a cop in prison, it can get nasty very quickly.

[Chaser]

Were Laurel and Roy in the opening too? I thought they just took out Diggle and Felicity and put Supersuit in, I didn't notice the other masks.

[lexicon]

I will say this for the show they keep the wardrobe consistent for Oliver. I love that he wears the same peacoat and brown jacket.

 

I have accepted many things this season, a lot of which has failed to make any sense, but if they touch the pea coat, I'm DONE ;)

[looptab]

the ongoing "sisterhood of the travelling pants" nature of the Arrow costume! 

lol yes it's a magical costume!

 

Anyway, I hated the show within a show. I hate that they have Diggle saying Felicity isn't answering her phone, when there is no way she wouldn't  answer, knowing there's someone around shooting people pretending to be Oliver, and that Lance is out to get him. Like, the situation was escalating pretty quickly, she wouldn't make herself unreachable.

 

I can accept Mama Smoak psychic powers, because if Dinah can sense Sara is dead, Donna can sense Felicity is in love with Oliver. But they could have been a little more subtle with the references to F's father, she basically mentioned him every three words.

 

That Malcolm was just chilling at the loft when Quentin said 5 minutes earlier that he had sent officers both there and to the club..whatever.

 

Laurel is just a miracle worker, she can fight LoA without getting even a bruise, and she's just so fearless she just jumps off the sides of building with no certainty whatsoever that she wouldn't end up splattered on the pavement. I get she's the Black Canary, but does she think she can fly?SMH (I know, I'm a broken record). Her hair was great, though.

 

Oliver, I love you and all, but maybe I would have punched you too had I been Quentin. "I love your family"? Seriously? Quentin must've been going "You don't say?! You banged half of it" in his head.

 

Roy is the MVP of the season, not just this episode.

 

Best moment: the cop showing Oliver's serial killer photo. LOLOLOL

[CabotCove]

Huh, why would anyone believe that Roy is the Arrow? Lance has already identified him as Arsenal months ago and anyone who has seen the Arrow and his team in action (which would be lots of police men and media people) should easily notice that Roy's physique doesn't match. He is much smaller and thinner than the Arrow (ergo, a much better match for Arsenal). If the Arrow writers really use Roy as their get out of jail card, they are once again treating their viewers as idiots.

 

Urgh, ITA.

[JenMcSnark]

Were Laurel and Roy in the opening too? I thought they just took out Diggle and Felicity and put Supersuit in, I didn't notice the other masks.

Laurel was right before Ray.  I don't remember seeing Roy though.  I'm sure they would have no qualms about removing him as well.  It's all about Laurel and Ray this season. 

[BkWurm1]

2.  Ray has a blood clot and they can't operate so the doctors can't save him. Where is Barry with his warfarin?  That will do itl.

 

Warfarin, at least the way they administer it through pill form, wouldn’t thin the blood at all until the next day and likely not to therapeutic levels for several days.  They usually use a liquid drug administered through an IV drip (which then greatly increased the risk of bleeding out) 

Still the actual blood clot usually takes several weeks (or months) to shrink (actually it doesn’t shrink from the blood thinners – they just give the body time to naturally reabsorb it like it would a bruise) and at least at first there is a big risk of the clot dislodging.  They don’t even want you to move the first couple days until they can determine if you’re stable.

 

Back when Barry dosed Oliver with rat poison he wasn't breaking up existing blood clots, but preventing his blood from clotting.  Chances are that they would have been better off running to the hospital and picking up something other than warfarin that would have been faster acting but maybe if you mix the magical herbs with the rat poison...

[Genki]

Removing John Diggle and Felicity Smoak from the opening is BS. 

 

Felicity was removed from the last "My name is Oliver Queen" monologue in 3.16, it pissed me off when I noticed it back then. Fail show, but pile on and Remove Diggle, to add Ray!?!? COME ON!!!! How many more time can this show take little pieces of my heart? 

 

Finally got to watch the episode, so much logic fail! As everyone here noted.

 

Mama Smoak I like you a lot, I want to see more of you in Arrow, but coming for Ray's injuries get a bit of side-eye from me. I can't imagine why they would make a point of Mama Smoak not watching the news of Oliver = Arrow if it isn't going to get taken back from the public. Although she seems pro-vigilante from the few comments made about Felicity's father, so maybe her knowing isn't a big deal.

 

But it would make for  some cute interaction if the Smoaking/Lance ship ever set sail.

[looptab]

Other sparse thoughts:

 

- Donna's psychic powers not only allow her to sense Felicity being in love with Oliver, but Oliver being in love with Felicity as well. Otherwise, with Felicity saying he is unavailable, why would she say that "her daughter has two amazing men"? Let's ignore the fact that Oliver has removed himself from the equation, so the only choice Felicity can make is really between kidding herself and Ray, or being alone.

 

- Can Nyssa smell it in the air when Laurel is in danger? It's the second time she just pops up at just the right moment. I preferred it when she just threw tranq darts at her.

 

-As much as I liked the scene at the precinct with just original Team Arrow plus Roy, why didn't Laurel go in as well? Was it because she was in her official ADA capacity? Well, the scene didn't make much sense either way. I don't know a lot about the US system, could she actually do that? Allow Oliver to have visitors, when not that much time had passed since the arrest?

 

My point is, either she's in, or she's out. They all thought it was a great idea to pay Diggle a group visit (you'd think Lance would keep an eye on them, knowing they're involved with Oliver, and probably follow them. But he chose to ignore that he knew names and addresses of 2/3 of Team Arrow, so that was all good?), at that point she could have just gone in with the others, with whatever excuse. Not that I'm complaining she wasn't there, it's just that the inconsistencies drive me insane. 

 

- How trusting is Shado's sister? But, what was the point of it, except to hammer the concept that they don't know how powerful the truth is? 

Edited April 2, 2015 by looptab

[Oscirus]

 I liked this episode. That's how you operate a frigging manhunt. I think that even if he didn't know who the Arrow was that Oliver would've turned himself in. it got way too crazy. The thing I liked about this episode is that it took the cliché obsessed cop and really allowed you to sympathize with him. I think it was well acted. In less capable hands Quentin would've come off as cartoonish.

 

Roy's confession at the end struck me as weird. But I guess if he has the costume and the voice modulator then you have to take him in until you can prove otherwise. It's an interesting parallel that he has with Thea in that they both killed innocent people while under the influence of drugs.

 

Nyssa bugged me. Did she really think that Laurel was ever in any real danger with her father? She just beat up Sara's father for no reason other then the fact that he was yelling at his daughter. Way to honor that memory Nyssa.

 

Laurel and her father have an interesting relationship. He's mad at her, but at the same time he won't do anything to hurt her. Quite the conflict.

 

Why does an assistant ADA think it's a good idea to sneak in public enemy # 1's best friends to see him on camera?  I guess her job is ironclad apparently.

 

The Ray stuff didn't bother me too much. I think they're trying way too hard to make Ray like Flash and he comes off like too much of a big goof. Also if Ray chooses to stick with Felicity after what he learned these past two weeks about Felicity then he has nobody to blame for his broken heart but himself.

 

Felicity also needs to get with the program and stop settling. Either fight for Oliver or commit to Ray but quit this flip flopping.

 

  Finally, Mama smoak was fun. But wasn't she watching the news when Oliver was outted as Arrow?  I know that's not her normal routine but they showed her watching that particular announcement so how does she not know about Oliver? Did she just shut off her brain while watching the telecast?

 

[doesntworkonwood]

Felicity's mother returns and, still, her entire storyline revolves around which guy she's going to pick. 

 

When the storyline of an episode is dependent on one character acting quite ridiculous IMO, then that episode is a weak one. 

 

And any slight indication that Ray might go away leaves me incredibly happy. Until, of course, he doesn't leave. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The "only Ray can save Ray " was utter b.s.

Like Dr. Drake Ramoray, "the only who could save me was me!"

 

Quentin: I know Oliver is the Arrow.

[Laurel pulls out her phone]

Quentin: Don't bother calling him. I already have squad cars on the way to his house and Verdant.

[Laurel puts away her phone and twiddles her thumbs for 15 minutes so that Oliver has no idea that the cops are coming]

 

Felicity's mom: You should totally just inject those nanorobot thingies into Ray and save his life!

Felicity: But I'm not a doctor!

[cut to Felicity just holding a metal tube to Ray's neck and pushing a button with absolutely no precision or planning whatsoever]

 

I got so bored with Quentin's self righteous indignation that I almost stopped watching the episode.

[KayElektra]

I'm also done with all the Lances. Over it. I don't understand the level of vitriol directed at Oliver from Quentin. Basically in the span of, what, like 2-3 episodes we've seen a relationship between Oliver and Lance, that took 2 1/2 seasons to cultivate, completely disintegrate due to LL's decision to keep Sara's death a secret. I get Lance is grieving, but the anger at Oliver/Arrow seems really excessive. Sort of the same way Ray's did last week.

It would have worked better if R'as had told Lance that Malcolm killed Sara and Oliver was protecting him. I could have bought the anger over that. And at least that is actually Oliver's fault.

And why would Lance just believe R'as?

Bleh. Arrow's real villain this season is logic.

Quentin has now become a cartoon character.  It's ridiculous.  Some random guy kidnaps him and tells him that Oliver Queen is the bad guy and Lance is all out for vengeance...because random guy also told him his daughter (whom he thought was dead) wasn't for a bit (which he already knew) and Oliver knew it (at the time) and didn't tell him. 

 

Oh hey, BTW, this random guy JUST KIDNAPPED YOU and has a bunch of guys with arrows and guns.  But sure, totally believe him over your own daughter.  You know, the one who isn't dead.  Good call, Sergeant/Captain/Lieutenant/ whatever you are this week that allows you to command the city's police force.

Edited April 2, 2015 by KayElektra

[paigow]

But sure, totally believe him over your own daughter.  You know, the one who isn't dead...  

the lying, unethical ADA...

[Menrva]

Well, at least now we know where Laurel learned how to not take responsibility for her own actions…

Edited April 2, 2015 by Menrva

[Delphi]

I haven't rewatched yet, but have more to add.

Did Mama Smoak show up due to watching the news than later say she didn't watch the news because it was too depressing? Which I do as well. Maybe Starling City news is too depressing.

I can't believe Felicity wasn't in the thick of it at all. That's disappointing.

Did Thea and Roy really just sit still and watch while the swat team raided Verdant?

I'm not bothered by Nyssa disarming Quinton at all. She's shown as someone willing to slice her father in half and honestly I'm sure to her it looks like Quinton has gone insane and would assume that Sara would think the same.

The jumping of the building was cool, would Lance have had a heart attack if Oliver forgot to catch Laurel and she just smashed into the pavement? Why chase the daughter you know is untrained off a roof?

The saving grace of this episode were the stunts/fights which were very good.

Why does no one on the police force worried about all these ninjas running around the city!? Why did Lance assume that Arrow was going to shoot and kill everyone in a meeting that Felicity is in.

Everything was so forced. Ugh.

[Chaser]

The Quentin and Oliver relationship is interesting. Quentin grew to have respect for the Arrow and what he was doing, but Oliver Queen is a different story. I think that Quentin knew deep down that Oliver was the Arrow, but he never wanted to face that because Quentin never forgave Oliver for what happened to Sara. He buried it and didn't dwell on it but when faced with Oliver and the lies of Sara's death it came roaring back. A part of Quentin will always see that Oliver as the boy before the island.

[Pyramid]

What a shambles. It's not just me is it? This whole story line with Ras blackmailing Oliver is just complete nonsense, right?
And they've turned Lance into a vindictive idiot. Not just that, he keeps blaming Oliver for his daughters keeping secrets from him. Doe he not think they have minds of their own?
Thank God for Roy and Dig.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm putting this paragraph down here to emphasise how little Ray's story has to do with the rest of Arrow. It's almost like he's on his own separate show. *snort* It's funny, apart from, your know, the humour.
And this paragraph is under the one about Ray to emphasise how much Felicity's character is getting crushed under the weight of propping Ray.

[Password]

What a shambles. It's not just me is it? This whole story line with Ras blackmailing Oliver is just complete nonsense, right?

And they've turned Lance into a vindictive idiot. Not just that, he keeps blaming Oliver for his daughters keeping secrets from him. Doe he not think they have minds of their own?

Thank God for Roy and Dig.

I'm putting this paragraph down here to emphasise how little Ray's story has to do with the rest of Arrow. It's almost like he's on his own separate show. *snort* It's funny, apart from, your know, the humour.

And this paragraph is under the one about Ray to emphasise how much Felicity's character is getting crushed under the weight of propping Ray.

Just brilliant.

[lexicon]

What a shambles. It's not just me is it? This whole story line with Ras blackmailing Oliver is just complete nonsense, right?

And they've turned Lance into a vindictive idiot. Not just that, he keeps blaming Oliver for his daughters keeping secrets from him. Doe he not think they have minds of their own?

Thank God for Roy and Dig.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm putting this paragraph down here to emphasise how little Ray's story has to do with the rest of Arrow. It's almost like he's on his own separate show. *snort* It's funny, apart from, your know, the humour.

And this paragraph is under the one about Ray to emphasise how much Felicity's character is getting crushed under the weight of propping Ray.

 

Slow clap my friend.

[kismet]

Last year, I think Laurel had some genuine reasons to question whether or not Oliver was the Hood/Arrow - notably that the second she announced that she was going after the Hood in her capacity as an ADA, Oliver didn't pull the "Uh, well, I'm him" card on her, which might have stopped the investigation. She was also under the impression that she genuinely knew Oliver, and this was an entirely different side to him that she had to reconcile, not to mention try to figure out why he hadn't told her even right before/right after they slept together.  That probably was one of her biggest questions: "Well, if Oliver really is the Arrow, why didn't he mention it after we got together, however briefly?"   Plus, Laurel had never suspected, much less believed, that Oliver Queen was the Hood/Arrow.  She made several strong arguments why he couldn't be.  And Laurel lacked a pretty significant piece of information: that Sara was the Black Canary.  And although she knew that Felicity worked for Oliver, she didn't know that Felicity also worked with the Arrow.  She didn't know that Roy was the red costumed guy with Oliver.

 

Quentin doesn't have any of those reasons. He and Oliver have never been friends; Quentin's on decent terms with the Arrow (well, was) not Oliver. Sara told him her identity pretty quickly. What didn't make much sense last season was that Quentin knew Sara was the Black Canary, knew that the Black Canary was the Arrow's partner, and knew that Sara was dating Oliver. He knew that Felicity worked for Oliver as his EA and worked with the Arrow. He knew Roy Harper was Arsenal and dating Oliver Queen's sister.  

 

Also, he could see Oliver's mask, so he could definitely see Oliver's jawline and be able to recognize that.

 

Meanwhile, over on Flash, Cisco listed Oliver as one of the potential Arrows, so it wasn't that difficult even for people who had never met Oliver Queen to figure out.

 

We kept asking, how can Quentin not know at this point?  So Ra's making this accusation is really more Ra's putting together several things that finally click and make sense for Quentin. 

I totally got that Quentin believed Ras easily, afterall QL was the first to put together that OQ was the Arrow in S1. So its not a surprise that he is so quick to believe Ras confirmation. What surprised me is that Quentin gets kidnapped by LoA and doesn't try to think about why they would kidnap him only to tell him a secret. The fact that QL doesn't question the ulterior motives of Ras, is what disappointed me about his character. But I know its for plot so I'll let it go, and his judgment is being significant;y clouded by his anger towards OQ & TA. The Sara reveal did not help to alleviate this anger. But I keep wondering if he had found out that OQ was the Arrow and then tried to talk with him discretely if it would have been a better angle for the show than the big press conference reveal. But I know Plot dictated that QL lose logic and go all blinded with anger route. But PB acted this ass of in all of the scenes. So that was well worth it.

[writersblock51]

Does anyone have any theories as to why Ra's wants Oliver to be his heir - all I see is urgency without motive.

[Jediknight]

Ray is no Disney prince. Crazy Eyes Palmer is way more Gaston. I bet he sings his own song he made up about how awesome he is. That's all I'll say about him.

Is he the Gaston from the movie or theme park Gaston?  Because theme park Gaston is pretty damn awesome.

 

There's only one way for Oliver to fix this, get a full body tattoo, get thrown in prison, and get Captain Cold and Heatwave to help with the breakout.

 

Does anyone have any theories as to why Ra's wants Oliver to be his heir - all I see is urgency without motive.

He's hung up on billionaire vigilantes leading the group, and since Bruce Wayne shot him down, he's going to Oliver.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Jediknight

[Password]

Total rebound.

[Delphi]

"I don't need you, I'll go find myself another rich vigilante! A better rich vigilante! And he won't be afraid of colour either!"

[TV Anonymous]

How stupid was Cpt. Lance? He knew that Laurel was - and Sara had been - Canary, an associate of Arrow. He knew that Felicity had access to Arrow. Yet he did not have any suspicion about a mutual acquaintance those women had?

[Jediknight]

"I don't need you, I'll go find myself another rich vigilante! A better rich vigilante! And he won't be afraid of colour either!"

 

Man, the makeup offer is going to be such a hard sell, till Oliver walks in and gets pissed.

[catrox14]

So I started wondering if the arrest of the Arrow was actually a plan between Quentin and Oliver and they really had to sell it hard to make Ra's believe it was all his doing.

 

I know he played it off as more of a confirmation of what he suspected, which he did say to Laurel "On some level, I always knew but didn't care as long as he was being the good guy".  I thought PB played the scene with Ra's a little too cool. But then I was thinking about the final scene with Quentin and Oliver. Oliver's face when he saw Roy being arrested, not just shock that Roy has done but almost like it really fucked up something else.  Anyway, I have to rewatch it to see if I still think this was a grandiose scheme between QL and OQ. 

[foreverevolving]

Yea.. Roy fucked up Oliver's plan of going down with the S.S.R Arrow, while making sure everyone else on the team make it to the life boats and into safety.

although i wish he would have strapped buckle to one of the poles and jumped ship to the F.Smoak life boat, I think room for him could have been easily found.

Edited April 2, 2015 by foreverevolving

[paigow]

"I don't need you, I'll go find myself another rich vigilante! A better rich vigilante!...

Ra's and Felicity have more in common than they know....

[dtissagirl]

The hilarious part is Quentin is just plain lucky Oliver and Roy are so goddamn noble. The Arrow's [and Felicity's] phone records, not to mention all of the police files he handed the Arrow, prove Lance is as much an accessory to the vigilantes as the other team members.

[Carrie Ann]

This episode really showcased some of the inherent problems with this season and with the show as a whole: namely that it really felt like 3 different shows going on in one hour, and tonally none of them fit together. The A plot really worked for me. I actually felt tense watching all of the chase scenes, and feeling all of Oliver's options slip away. But then there were the flashbacks, which had very little of that urgency, and were instead sort of slow and mournful in tone. And then there was the B plot, which was lifted out of an actual sitcom, with the bouncy music and slapstick and WTF, seriously. If the writers don't see how badly this thing has pulled Felicity down and out of the real action, and how it just plain does not fit with the whole feeling of the show, then I give up.

 

Speaking of things being all over the place, lotta high highs for some characters (Roy) and low lows for others. Poor Quentin, the latest victim of character assassination in the name of plot. I'm still not mad at him because there is literally no reason for him to do any of this except that the plot needs him to do it, and everyone gets a pass for that this season, honestly. But goddammit, Laurel, stand UP and take responsibility for your shit. She has still faced no consequences for her actions, aside from her dad being mad at her, but he's mad at everyone else too, and maddest of all at Oliver, and I am just SO READY for anyone else to pay for their mistakes sometime.

 

On the other hand, there was Donna Smoak, who is officially the best thing to happen this whole stupid season. And I wasn't thrilled with all of her characterization here, but it honestly doesn't matter because Charlotte Ross just nails it in the subtlety of her scenes with EBR. That "I knew it in five" line was delivered perfectly, and it elevated that scene from something that would have felt like it belonged more on HIMYM than Arrow, to something that felt like real emotion, like real human relationships.

 

Anyway, I hated the show within a show. I hate that they have Diggle saying Felicity isn't answering her phone, when there is no way she wouldn't answer, knowing there's someone around shooting people pretending to be Oliver, and that Lance is out to get him. Like, the situation was escalating pretty quickly, she wouldn't make herself unreachable.

 

Especially when it was a plot point earlier in the season that Felicity is never more than five feet from her phone and always answers, and that if she doesn't, it must mean trouble. Sorry, I just don't buy that Felicity wouldn't be responsive at that time and it was stupid to include that line. They honestly didn't need it. Clearly Dig and Oliver knew she was safe, knew she was with Ray, so why bother saying that she's not answering her phone?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[catrox14]

The hilarious part is Quentin is just plain lucky Oliver and Roy are so goddamn noble. The Arrow's [and Felicity's] phone records, not to mention all of the police files he handed the Arrow, prove Lance is as much an accessory to the vigilantes as the other team members.

 

See, I can't believe they want Lance to actually be that stupid. That's why I think there is more to this plan than meets the eye.

[Chaser]

Ra's and Felicity have more in common than they know....

Can Ra's take Felicity on a date next? They need to discuss this.

[kismet]

Warfarin, at least the way they administer it through pill form, wouldn’t thin the blood at all until the next day and likely not to therapeutic levels for several days.  They usually use a liquid drug administered through an IV drip (which then greatly increased the risk of bleeding out) 

Still the actual blood clot usually takes several weeks (or months) to shrink (actually it doesn’t shrink from the blood thinners – they just give the body time to naturally reabsorb it like it would a bruise) and at least at first there is a big risk of the clot dislodging.  They don’t even want you to move the first couple days until they can determine if you’re stable.

 

Back when Barry dosed Oliver with rat poison he wasn't breaking up existing blood clots, but preventing his blood from clotting.  Chances are that they would have been better off running to the hospital and picking up something other than warfarin that would have been faster acting but maybe if you mix the magical herbs with the rat poison...

First of all, I found it a ridiculous notion to even have the thrombi be a major factor in the show. It was just another poor choice for their Make Us like Ray campaign.

Warfarin/coumadin is a pill form, there are also other pills that help reduce the risk of clotting. There are generally 2 type of IV drugs that help to break up clots tPA & Heparin. There are also low-molecular heparin based injections that help reduce clotting or the potential for clotting. These IV, pill & injection drugs are generally safe but need close monitoring. There are certain protocols and rules to using not using them. But they are standard practice. Unless Ray was actively bleeding somewhere, I can't imagine that they would have tried those. So maybe his chest wound was not fully healed. All of these drugs are gradual in their effects, but that is important to not have the patient have adverse effects. Ultimately, the way Ray's condition was presented I did not feel like his was in serious condition. There are ways they could have made him seem more sick, but they chose not to do that. Quick review of WebMD probably could have given them at least a few symptoms to influence their writing & acting choices. I really think they missed the mark in how they presented his critical injury. Regardless, the nanobots were a very dangerous option to try, especially with an asymptomatic Ray who did not appear to be actively dying. I could have seen Felicity trying it is he was symptomatic, but the man had no symptoms. I sorta wish they had put Ray in a coma or made him slightly unresponsive so that Felicity would have been forced to make a tough decision. It just seemed like she willingly disregarded sound medical knowledge & advice on a whim, which doesn't seem right. Frankly, I don't think she's gained anymore medical knowledge. I just don't think it mattered where she injected the nanotech. Precisely why they should have had something happen to him besides it working perfectly. I had hoped the seizure would last or at least he would have had some residual recovery effects. It also would have helped the tone of the show if Ray was in visible medical danger. It also would have maybe allowed Felicity to actually help TA more. The lightness of the Ray scenes made it feel completely out of place on last night's show. It just didn't fit. I love Mama Smoak but her exuberance seemed out of place with the whole distract that doctor. I don't mind her exuberance on the show in general, I find it a welcome relief. But really, that distract a doctor plot line was worse than most poorly written soap operas. That's actually what all of R/F/MS scenes felt like, a poorly written soap. I get they really want us to like Ray and maybe they thought putting him in life threatening situation would make us care about him, but I found that I didn't care. I was more annoyed that they were misusing medicine to further introduce what makes Ray great. I don't know why, but I would have hoped they would have had more respect for medicine. At least when they make Oliver disregard medical knowledge its not done in the context of an ICU under the close watch of the medical community. If they wanted the nanotech introduced they should have done it out of the hospital or after the made Ray's condition visibly dire. Most people with thrombi are symptomatic (many different symptoms, depending on where the thrombi is located or what area it is impacting), they didn't even bother to give him a headache. Once again, I feel they missed their opportunity to tell an organic story regarding Ray. There were so many other better ways to introduce the nanotechnology. Or better yet, just tell us about it on the spin-off.  One bitter yet ironic part of this story though is that only ray can save ray fits the egotistical Im better than everyone persona that I know believe is Ray's MO. He would be self-absorbed enough to believe that only he is able to save himself.

[dtissagirl]

See, I can't believe they want Lance to actually be that stupid. That's why I think there is more to this plan than meets the eye.

 

I wish I could have that kind of faith in this show, haha.

[TrueMyth]

When they panned camera across Merlyn watching the news after saying they'd sent officers for Oliver at his "house," I fully expected the wide/pull-back to reveal four dead cops sprawled at his feet while he wiped his hands with a hankie.

 

It does seem odd to have Mama Smoak show up that quickly because she "heard what happened" only to have her state she didn't watch the news.  Especially since, as noted above (sorry, I had quoted it, but lost my quote string), she was in the scene with Felicity when Lance announced that Oliver Queen was the Arrow.  Finally, as much as my shipper-heart liked the idea that Mama "knew it in five seconds," the text does not support it, not from the one Mama and Oliver scene.  I suppose you could say she was quick to jump and say Oliver wasn't a friend, but Donna cites Felicity's "lighting up" as the clue, not her verbal slip.

 

I think the whole thing would have worked better, been a bit deeper, if Mama Smoak based her understanding mostly off of Felicity's reactions during this episode.  Even with her handsome, rich boyfriend possibly dying in the next room, Felicity was watching the news the way she should have been watching Ray's life monitors.  The confirmation that Oliver Queen is the Arrow should have been the straw that broke the camel's back, and the references to Felicity's father establish that Donna isn't one to judge someone for loving someone on unstable legal ground.  It would have been a bit tricker scene to write, but those are the real reasons it should be clear that Felicity loves Oliver.

 

I did rather love Felicity's near-vomit face at Ray's ILY.  Sorta like, "Oh god, you're supposed to be the easy guy."  Nice Doctor Who reference, and cool that we have some canon to hang Felicity's geek cred on.  Previously, such references have seemed out of character for Felicity, who seemed more like a classic nerd in her cultural references.  Still, Leverage did such things better, actually bringing in names, etc.  This read a little like lip service.

 

I really liked the action, but I think my favorite bit of that was Maseo and Tatsu flying in to slice down the guys going after their son.  I know the boy has to bite it at some point, but I really love that badass family.  I want a spin-off where they fight crimes together.

 

I think I'm supposed to hand wave the group's visit to Oliver in the precinct because Oliver said Laurel was supposed to get immunity for them with his confession... but that seemed like he said that in present tense, as in, they did not yet have immunity, so what the hell?!  I hand wave Laurel not joining the pow-wow because she was behind the glass making sure nothing was recorded or observed, otherwise, SUCH A BAD PLACE TO TALK ABOUT ARROW STUFF, OMG. 

[Perfect Xero]

Well, at least now we know where Laurel learned how to not take responsibility for her own actions…

 

That about sums it up. When Quentin was ranting at Oliver for making him his accomplice ... Last I checked Oliver doesn't have mind control powers, you made yourself his accomplice Q, so did your daughters and everyone else.