S03.E10: Stingers

[maczero]

I was getting a creepy pre- pedophile vibe from Pastor Tim in the previews, I'm still wondering if that might be where they end up going with him.  

I got the same vibe when he was introduced.  However, I don't think that would be very imaginative storytelling.  First, Paige has already been approached twice by grown men who seemed to be interested in her sexually so I can't imagine they would be willing to go there a third time.  And honestly, it's too black and white.  If he's a pedophile then he's obviously the bad guy so automatically we root against him.  It's more interesting if he's actually on the up and up because if Paige confides in him the truth about her parents, then there's the awkward situation of Phil and Liz needing to eliminate someone who's close to their daughter.  Not as much drama, if they just have to kill off someone who's also sexually assaulting their daughter.

Edited April 3, 2015 by maczero

[Umbelina]

I'm still apparently one of the very few who is really bugged by this episode.

 

She's 15.  BARELY. 

 

It's also interesting if you read interviews with the actress, who IS the same age as Paige.  She's all, "Woo!  Super cool!  I hope I get guns and stuff!  I hope I get to go on secret missions and maybe even blow something up!  It's SO COOL!  Paige is a SPY!  Woo Hoo!"  You know, like a normal barely-15 year old. 

 

So mom and dad both just leave her alone.  They don't put a quick tap on the phone line, or do their spy thing and observe her without her knowing.  They just walk away and hope for the best!  It's not like nothing is at stake or anything.  Forget their own freedom, forget their kids ending up in foster care, let all that go, but fanatic Elizabeth doesn't even care about all the crucial missions they are involved in RIGHT NOW can be blown to bit by a hormonal teenage girl?

 

Yeah, because everyone can keep secrets, right?  No teenager is going to spill a secret!  NEVER HAPPEN!  They are well known vaults of secrecy about secrets.

 

Oh, and I think Taffet is definitely playing Stan.  There is no way that look last week between Aderholt and Gaad didn't mean they are suspicious of Stan.  Also, if they don't have Stan AND Martha under surveillance then there is no way in hell this show is even close to reality.  Stan would have been under constant surveillance ever since he begged for Nina.

 

I hate to say it, but this episode really bugged the shit out of me.  Also, I'm getting petulant that so far, the reviews I've read aren't backing me up.  **foot stomp**

 

They are losing me, they've walked a pretty good line between real and entertainment for me all along.  Until last night.

[beeble]

I would have turned the tables on her and told her that they were very hurt and felt betrayed that she'd been talking about private family matters with outsiders.

 

 

I come from a family of addicts, and that is their default move. Confront anyone about anything, and they turn you into the bad guy who has betrayed the family in some way. The problem is that addicts/enablers don't know that this shit is poisonous; instead they just pat themselves on the back for getting away with something else. Philip and Elizabeth (for as much as they could use some pharmaceuticals about now) know that they can't keep lying to Paige, and that if they lie to her she will move emotionally away from them if not physically (as soon as she can). Not only do they have to turn her into a spy but they kind of like her too and don't want this to happen.

 

The only thing they should have done better was maybe say, "Well, we were not born…wait, where's Henry?"

Edited April 2, 2015 by beeble

[JennyMominFL]

I'm still apparently one of the very few who is really bugged by this episode.

 

She's 15.  BARELY. 

 

It's also interesting if you read interviews with the actress, who IS the same age as Paige.  She's all, "Woo!  Super cool!  I hope I get guns and stuff!  I hope I get to go on secret missions and maybe even blow something up!  It's SO COOL!  Paige is a SPY!  Woo Hoo!"  You know, like a normal barely-15 year old. 

 

So mom and dad both just leave her alone.  They don't put a quick tap on the phone line, or do their spy thing and observe her without her knowing.  They just walk away and hope for the best!  It's not like nothing is at stake or anything.  Forget their own freedom, forget their kids ending up in foster care, let all that go, but fanatic Elizabeth doesn't even care about all the crucial missions they are involved in RIGHT NOW can be blown to bit by a hormonal teenage girl?

 

Yeah, because everyone can keep secrets, right?  No teenager is going to spill a secret!  NEVER HAPPEN!  They are well known vaults of secrecy about secrets.

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but this episode really bugged the shit out of me.  Also, I'm getting petulant that so far, the reviews I've read aren't backing me up.  **foot stomp**

 

 

Haha, it's like the RHOBH forum all over again for you. I mostly agree with you but for me the greatness still  so heavily outweighs the bad.

I was shocked at the way Phillip is handling Martha.

[Helena Dax]

WOW... They told Paige! I wasn't expecting that, not so soon. It was a great scene. On the other hand, I agree that there should be a protocol about this kind of things. Philip and Elizabeth should have warned the KGB; I guess they didn't because they wanted to deal with Paige by themselves, but if she talks, all of them will be in danger, included Gabriel and that South African guy. 

 

Things at home are going to be very different now. Paige wanted the truth, but it can't be easy to deal with that. And now that she knows, there must be some consecuences. You just can't go on with your life as if nothing happened. 

 

Also, Stan know there's something fishy about Martha! This show is going to kill me.

[Umbelina]

The reality is that a KGB agent would be watching Paige, listening in on that phone call, and ready to put a bullet in her head should she start to spill.

[beeble]

This is also the tail-end of 1982. I know this because Tootsie came out over Christmas Break of 8th grade when I was in Rochester NY visiting my grandparents, and it was the only time I saw them laugh their asses off. Zinaida revealed her agent-ness by getting up in the middle of that movie: nobody who wants to call himself a pie-loving American gets up during a Bill Murray scene from Tootsie. 

 

Henry is going to need a new 9-volt battery soon.

 

The tape machine looked more Beta-max ish but the video itself looked VHS. We had a Beta-max (because my dad always, always took for the wrong tech advice, which is why we don't have stock in Apple) but VHS's didn't really come into their own for another year or so…right? It might just be my dad's voice I'm hearing, telling me that nobody sane would ever buy a VHS.

[Umbelina]

It's early 1983 they skipped Christmas.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Umbelina

[fauxphysician]

In the previews, didn't Gabriel say something to the effect that HE'D be taking over Paige's training/education? (If not please correct my impression!) If I saw/recall that correctly, I think it will shove Phillip toward making a break, because while Gabriel talks a good game--- Paige placed post college in a setting  where she can ferret out information-- Phillip's reality is Elizabeth's training, honeypot and all. Something he'd abhor for his daughter.

[sistermagpie]

In the previews, didn't Gabriel say something to the effect that HE'D be taking over Paige's training/education? (If not please correct my impression!) If I saw/recall that correctly, I think it will shove Phillip toward making a break, because while Gabriel talks a good game--- Paige placed post college in a setting  where she can ferret out information-- Phillip's reality is Elizabeth's training, honeypot and all. Something he'd abhor for his daughter.

 

 

I thought he just said "I'll take care of it" and we don't know the context. But in that same scene they told him Paige knew now. Of course Gabriel's not going to take over on Paige. Paige isn't even being recruited yet. And if they even suggested she'd be trained at honeypotting both her parents would refuse. 

[kikaha]

I agree Maczero.  Pastor Tim has huge boundary issues.  I still want Philip to deal with him at the appropriate time.  Recall the one night Philip went to visit him?  Anyone with half a brain would tread lightly around Philip after that.  But, not this guy.  Somethings not right with him.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.  I thought in each case Paige has been the instigator.  She approaches Pastor Tim, feels safe enough with him to share her deep-felt family issues, and asks for his help and intervention.  Guidance in spiritual/religious matters is a big part of his job.  In this case he has an earnest teenager, whose parents are as atheistic as they come, and who have misrepresented themselves, their values and beliefs to Paige, about as thoroughly is as possible.

 

Of course he's going to approach all he does from the standpoint of his faith.  That's his life, and it's why Paige has come to him as well.  He helps fill a hole in her life, that is largely of P&E's doing. 

 

I agree that he should have cleared the money with P&E. 

[henripootel]

The reality is that a KGB agent would be watching Paige, listening in on that phone call, and ready to put a bullet in her head should she start to spill.

Mmm - maybe.  The whole thing about illegals is that the were so damn hard to find, having (or supposed to) no contact with the 'legal' spies in the embassy.  Putting Paige under surveillance would be risky, especially if they didn't warn Phillip and Elizabeth (who'd probably spot the watchers and assume the worst, that they're FBI).  

 

Putting a bullet in her head?  No way, especially if they don't want Phillip and Elizabeth to personally cancel the hit team and beeline for the FBI to cut a deal.  Illegals aren't made of stone, and ruthless as the KGB was, they weren't stupid about their assets.  No, my guess is that Gabriel would insist on 'some' surveillance (and then watch the hell out of her) and if she turned out to be a problem, Paige would go off to 'visit her aunt' for a couple of months.  And may actually get to meet her actual aunt.  Phillip and Elizabeth might still go apeshit but they won't go to feds, not if they want to see Paige again.  Be a hell of a story arc.  

Edited April 2, 2015 by henripootel

[attica]

No teenager is going to spill a secret!  NEVER HAPPEN!

 

I get your skepticism, but: look at all the kids that hide abuse, eating disorders, and all manner of other kinds of family secrets. Philip made his point: she talks, her whole world ends. She's already proven to be a responsible sister; she is not going to let that Russian cat out of the bag.

[sistermagpie]

I agree that he should have cleared the money with P&E.

 

 

He should really have not taken that much. It just defines him right away as a guy who takes until you have nothing left to give and not before. That's not insignificant given how it echoes so many other things on the show. 

 

I hate to say it, but this episode really bugged the shit out of me.  Also, I'm getting petulant that so far, the reviews I've read aren't backing me up.  **foot stomp**

 

 

I can totally relate after last week's ep!

[Maire]

That was Bobbi, Luke's sister and a nurse at GH. They are both still on GH today all these years later.

[sistermagpie]

That was Bobbi, Luke's sister and a nurse at GH. They are both still on GH today all these years later.

 

 

 

No, it wasn't Bobbi. It was Susan Moore.

[Umbelina]

Even those kids usually tell someone though.  At the very least, their sibling, or a very close friend.

 

I did mean Gabriel's teams, not Arkady's.  Also, the "bullet in her head" was more metaphorical.  I should have been more clear.  They would stop her.

 

Actually, that's why I've had such a hard time with this story to begin with.  I've been able to fan wank that the KGB just doesn't get American kids, at all.  I've been able to fan wank that there is something they REALLY need an 2nd generation to do, and that it's both immediate and long term. 

 

I have a problem with:

"Just tell her when you think she's ready."

"No need to give us a head's up the moment you do."  (unless they have bugged Philip and Elizabeth's home, which would be prudent and normal.)

 

Let's just let our entire operation hinge on an incredibly hormonal young girl who believes in Jesus!  Yeah, no.

 

Ditto with Stan by the way, the FBI would totally have him watched and bugged. 

 

If either of those things aren't true?  They've strayed much to far from basic spycraft, and it doesn't make sense to me.
 

 

Got a secret
Can you keep it?
Swear this one you'll save
Better lock it in your pocket
Taking this one to the grave
If I tell you then I know you won't tell what I said
'Cause two can keep a secret if one of them is dead

 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Umbelina

[scrb]

That dinner scene, Paige realizing Stan could put away her parents.

 

Then she notices Elizabeth has a knife and if she opened her mouth, she'd probably gut poor Stan.

 

Though I guess she doesn't have an idea of the kind of deeds her folks have perpetrated, in the name of "helping our country."

 

It's one thing to claim the Soviet Union isn't like the way it's portrayed in America but if she finds out her parents are seducing people, including potentially a girl her age, and have a lot of blood on their hands, it might be impossible for them to get her on board.

 

The public conception of spies was and still is romanticized, a la James Bond, having adventures in exotic locales and only killing people who deserved it.  The real test would be if Paige got an idea of the kind of things her parents have had to do, in order to "make the world a better place."

[FormerMod-a1]

I agree. I don't know that Paige would be thinking her parents were doing such ruthless things.  She might be thinking taking pictures of things, or surveillance type spying.  Even with this kind of big shocking revelation, it would be hard to think of your otherwise loving parents as torturers, murderers and sex workers.

[Umbelina]

The little brother certainly did seem to be in Philip's closet.  Did he find an unused Philip hiding place?  Those moccasins were big, and I can't see him wearing them even if they were his size.

[Dev F]

I have a problem with:

"Just tell her when you think she's ready."

"No need to give us a head's up the moment you do."  (unless they have bugged Philip and Elizabeth's home, which would be prudent and normal.)

 

Let's just let our entire operation hinge on an incredibly hormonal young girl who believes in Jesus!  Yeah, no.

 

That assumes that what we saw in this episode was the KGB's operation going to plan, and I don't think it was. It was Paige blowing up their plans quite spectacularly, and Philip and Elizabeth having to scramble to respond.

 

What the KGB wanted was for the Jenningses to develop Paige very slowly and cautiously, providing regular updates to Gabriel along the way. And when Paige short-circuited the timetable, it's not like her parents fall back on some KGB-approved plan B. They're trying desperately to do what they think is best for their daughter in an impossible situation -- the KGB and their own operational safety be damned.

 

And that's not just them being randomly stupid and short-sighted; it's the culmination of the entire back half of this season, in which every episode seemed to be about the Jenningses confronting the limits of their commitment to the cause if it means putting their family in danger. It's the same instinct that caused Elizabeth to look askance at Ncgobo when he talked about beating his son, Philip to insist that they spare Todd's life because he's "just a kid," and so on.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Dev F

[FictionIsntReal]

She knows her parents have been hiding something really important from her. They allow her to take responsibility for Henry so that they can disappear on bogus travel agency business at all hours. They've brushed off her less direct attempts at getting information; they've outright lied, and Paige knows it.

Just a minor point: she's never caught them in a lie, she just has lots of reasons to be suspicious that they're hiding something. Agree with everything else you said though.

 

It was Elizabeth who suggested sparing Todd, Phillip attempted to spare a truck driver last season in Martial Eagle. Henry was in his own room, which is why he had the door locked and Paige knew to knock and call for him there.

Edited April 2, 2015 by FictionIsntReal

[SlackerInc]

CarpeDiem, you are not the only one that failed to love the Great Paige Reveal.  I was thinking throughout that they've been building to this for so long, but just like with the Jared reveal, this show struggles to bring home things in an emotionally authentic manner.  Also, I have no wish to be unkind to a teenage actor, so I am not going to be, but what I was thinking throughout the reaction shots was what an unfair burden it was to put on such a young actor to try and carry off something she doesn't have enough life experience to understand fully.   

[snip]

They can either have Paige silently buy the "We fight for Peace" thing Elizabeth said, with seemingly no irony.  Or, they can mention a Soviet run war in Afghanistan in every.single.episode of this season.  They can't really have it both ways.   

I know several people have said that it wasn't a time when we still believed the Soviets would blow the world up....and yes, it specifically was more than it had been the year prior to that because the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.  They were literally rolling out war on the geopolitical landscape.  It was a setback for their "The Soviets: really, shouldn't we just forget this Cold War paranoia?" mindset, to say the very least because...."Oh...ha, well  go figure.  So they just started an entirely unprovoked war! Silly Cold War fears, amirite?" 

 

You and I are compiling an impressive track record of opposite opinions on this show--and not always with me positive, you negative, either.  That's what it is this time, though.  I thought this was one of the best episodes of TV I've seen, ever.  (OTOH, though I've often not totally bought into your line that Keri Russell is "stunningly gorgeous" or words to that effect, I thought she looked very fine in that businesswoman getup: that's a really good look for her.)

 

And BTW, the Soviet war in Afghanistan is IMO as justifiable as any military intervention you could name (including the Allies in WWII).  The central government that the Soviets came in to support was extremely progressive in trying to wipe out a lot of the medieval bullshit in the hinterlands, and support modernism, women's rights, etc.  This was not cool with the ultrareligious patriarchs, and that was who threatened to (and ultimately did) drag the country back into the Dark Ages.

 

I was getting a creepy pre- pedophile vibe from Pastor Tim in the previews, I'm still wondering if that might be where they end up going with him.  It would kind of mirror the stuff Phillip is doing with Kimmy.  

 

People have been saying that since he was introduced, but I never saw it and the showrunners have been clear they find this continual drumbeat frustrating (as do I).  Here's Joel Fields, from an interview on the AV Club: "It’s to the point where we, a few times, had to remind certain people on the show that this was a nice church. That there was nothing nefarious. They kept waiting, I think, for this minister to pull his mask off. I think they were so invested with Philip and Elizabeth’s point of view. But it really tapped into their own cultural perspective."

[Umbelina]

Well, Gabriel was pushing both of them to tell Paige "and SOON!" so I disagree that they only wanted Paige groomed.

[SunnyBeBe]

Perhaps Pastor Tim is just inexperienced as a youth pastor or whatever he calls himself, but it's not smart, IMO, to go visit a parent of a child in your congregation and tell them to treat their child more as an adult.  I mean, it's beyond bizarre that a minister would tell a parent that.  He seems to be inclined to side with the child without much regard for the parent, unless called out on it.  Perhaps when he goes to Kenya over the summer he will be met with an unfortunate attack by a wild animal that carries him into the bush to never be seen again.  I bet the Center could make that arrangement.

 

I can't figure out why they are not polygraphing the employees instead of just chatting with them.  How does this guy know if they are telling the truth?  Didn't they polygraph a lot then?

[Trillian]

If I may digress a bit, back to the "evil empire" stuff. I graduated high school in 1979, so I would have been a bit older than Paige. While Reagan led the country down a conservative road in the early 80s, there were still many of us progressives out there who didn't buy the program. My college campus was definitely going in a conservative direction, but my friends and I were liberals who were still fighting for peace and didn't see the USSR as evil. I think Paige and her church would fall into that group as well.

Coming in late to the party to agree with the above. Like Paige, I was involved in the anti-nuke movement in the early/mid 80s (also involved in anti-Apartheid, albeit in a much less dramatic form that Philip and Elizabeth). The 80s peace movement tended towards the view that it was the (mad)man in the White House who was the greatest threat, not the men in the Kremilin, since the latter seemed increasingly ineffectual (due, in great part, to the unfolding disaster in Afghanistan). Sting's "if the Russians Love Their Children too" was still a few years away (I wonder if the series will ever go there if it makes it to 1985?) but the sentiment was out there in the peace movement that Paige was a part of.

Plus, Paige may have been brought up American, but it's hard to believe that Elizabeth could have stomached raising her as a " m country right or wrong" person. Call back to the first or second episode when Elizabeth jumps in on the news report to say it's an achievement just to get into space. Paige would've been raised with lots of subtle comments that maybe the Soviet Union wasn't hell on earth. I don't find it implausible that she wouldn't react with complete horror and disgust.

On a more shallow note, I don't remember the hair-over-one-shoulder look, but the flip on the left side of Paige's hair? Nailed the era!

[90PercentGravity]

I feel like there is a parallel between Pastor Tim/Paige and Phillip/Kimmie. Phillip even sort of imitates Pastor Phillip with Kimmie.

[scowl]

I get your skepticism, but: look at all the kids that hide abuse, eating disorders, and all manner of other kinds of family secrets. Philip made his point: she talks, her whole world ends. She's already proven to be a responsible sister; she is not going to let that Russian cat out of the bag.

 

Another factor is that Paige, like many television characters, has no friends. Who is she going to tell other than Pastor McCreepy and Neighbor Stan? 

[soapfaninnc]

Perhaps Pastor Tim is just inexperienced as a youth pastor or whatever he calls himself, but it's not smart, IMO, to go visit a parent of a child in your congregation and tell them to treat their child more as an adult.  I mean, it's beyond bizarre that a minister would tell a parent that.  He seems to be inclined to side with the child without much regard for the parent, unless called out on it.  Perhaps when he goes to Kenya over the summer he will be met with an unfortunate attack by a wild animal that carries him into the bush to never be seen again.  I bet the Center could make that arrangement.

 

 

 

i don't get a pedophile vibe off of him. I get a 'televangilist' feel off of him. It's not about all the stuff 'God' or 'Jesus' did, it's look at what a special snowflake I am - me - Pastor Tim.  There is no way he should have taken any money from Paige without talking to her parents first. 

 

I just didn't care for the whole reveal and not much for the show any longer. I'm not totally surprised I'm one - apparently - of the few children of the 80's who scared to death of the USSR at the time.  I'm just not seeing how Paige is going to throw over Jesus for worshipping the state - which what communism is all about. She obviously was disgusted by Gregory being a dope dealer - what happens when she finds out just what Mommy and Daddy have been up to?

[VCRTracking]

I credit Olga Korbut for changing some people's opinions of the Soviets. "Look at how adorable she is doing her floor routine! How can we bomb her?"

[SunnyBeBe]

I noticed that Philip recoiled when Pastor Tim invited he and Elizabeth to come to Kenya.  Do they even have a passport?  Couldn't the center get them one?  They certainly have fake birth certificates and must file and pay taxes, right? Have they ever mentioned leaving the US on a trip?

[sistermagpie]

i don't get a pedophile vibe off of him. I get a 'televangilist' feel off of him. It's not about all the stuff 'God' or 'Jesus' did, it's look at what a special snowflake I am - me - Pastor Tim.  There is no way he should have taken any money from Paige without talking to her parents first.

 

Thank you, yes. Whenever someone makes the point that Pastor Tim would naturally use his faith to talk to everyone I always think...but he doesn't sound particularly Christian most of the time either! I mean, yes, obviously he is one and the one time he talked to Philip about believing everyone could be forgiven and gave the sermon on redemption he sounded Christian. But most of the time he seems more interested in Jesus being like himself and his activism. Even when I consider that he's self-consciously doing the "I'll play down the God-stuff so you don't get scared' stuff with Philip, he still never feels all that Christian to me, good or bad. Not that all Christians are alike but when he talks about whatever his latest project is I never feel like he's shooting it through with a particularly Christian feeling except that it's his flock.

 

I noticed that Philip recoiled when Pastor Tim invited he and Elizabeth to come to Kenya.  Do they even have a passport?  Couldn't the center get them one?  They certainly have fake birth certificates and must file and pay taxes, right? Have they ever mentioned leaving the US on a trip?

 

 

He recoiled at the idea of going on a mission trip with Pastor Tim, I think. He's got several passports, at least one of which is for Philip Jennings. I assume they do travel out of the country fairly often--that seems like a perk of having a travel agency, and we've seen at least one flashback of Elizabeth meeting Zhukov in Italy (which made a lot more sense than him coming to DC!).

Edited April 3, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Peanutbuttercup]

If I were Philip and Elizabeth and didn't want to tell Paige the truth, I would have told her that our family was living underground, with assumed identities, because of past work with radical anti-war, pro-civil rights organizations that got in trouble with the law. In the late 70's and early 80's a number of former domestic activists/terrorists (from the Weather Underground and similar organizations) were resurfacing after having lived for many years under assumed identities after having cut off all contact with their former families. This was in the news a lot and would have been something understood by Paige, and probably a lot more acceptable to her than being a Russian spy. But I guess the point was that Philip and Elizabeth weren't looking for plausible excuses any more.

On a separate note, I'm glad to see Stan starting to put together his previously subconscious suspicions about Martha. He's been mostly useless for so long -- I want to see him be a more formidable adversary for Philip & Elizabeth. It's no fun watching a fight between Muhammad Ali and some random dumb kid with one hand tied behind his back.

[Dev F]

Well, Gabriel was pushing both of them to tell Paige "and SOON!" so I disagree that they only wanted Paige groomed.

 

Hrm, that's not how I remember it, and a search through this season's transcripts for the word "Paige" seems to confirm my recollections. Gabriel is very clear in the season premiere that the Center thinks "now is the time to start laying the groundwork" but that they understand it's a delicate situation that's going to take time. He gets pushier in "Born Again" when he realizes that despite her assurances, Elizabeth hasn't even started developing her daughter, but I don't believe he ever suggests that they need to barrel ahead to full disclosure.

[Umbelina]

Where did you search.  I'd search for the word "SOON."  ;)  It was a "her" not a Paige.

[Dev F]

The transcripts for the season are all up at this website. My search on "soon" did not return anything relevant, but perhaps you can find something I missed.

[lucindabelle]

OMG, you nailed it. This should been a cover story they'd already discussed, especially since Elizabeth had already told her daughter she'd worked for civil rights.

If I were Philip and Elizabeth and didn't want to tell Paige the truth, I would have told her that our family was living underground, with assumed identities, because of past work with radical anti-war, pro-civil rights organizations that got in trouble with the law. In the late 70's and early 80's a number of former domestic activists/terrorists (from the Weather Underground and similar organizations) were resurfacing after having lived for many years under assumed identities after having cut off all contact with their former families. 

[Umbelina]

The transcripts for the season are all up at this website. My search on "soon" did not return anything relevant, but perhaps you can find something I missed.

Thanks!

 

I'm still looking, but my "soon" must be wrong.  I'm thinking of a conversation between Elizabeth and Gabriel.  I may look more later.  I hope I didn't just take it from the finale last year!

 

The centre -- they want Paige to be next.

That is not an option.

Those are your orders.

First -- soon, you need to tell her who you really are, Who she really is, get her ready.

Then, develop her until the time is right For you to tell her that she will join our ranks.

It was unforgivable For them to go behind emmett and leanne's backs, But don't forget what's at stake in this war.

A second-generation illegal could change everything, And, for the right child, It could give their life a meaning and a purpose That they could never get in this country.

That's for us to decide.

Paige is your daughter, but she's not just yours.

She belongs to the cause.

And to the world.

We all do.

 

wrong handler?

[Boundary]

Just a minor point: she's never caught them in a lie, she just has lots of reasons to be suspicious that they're hiding something. Agree with everything else you said though.

 

We've seen Paige's implied suspicions for a while now, they got explicit last season but we've never accessed her thoughts. She's never verbalized what she thought until yesterday and she had a pretty good list, the most effective item being that they never see or hear about any relatives. She basically takes care of Henry, regularly cooking dinner for example and the more she did that the angrier she got, she knew no travel agents could be that busy. Looking back, we know and understand Philip's position regarding Paige's recruitment but what really was his alternative plan? More lies? Some witness protection bullshit? Any of those things would drive a wedge in the family and she'd move out as soon as she turned 18. Or she'd investigate further and mention something in passing to Stan. So many innocuous but risky things. Telling her straight and making her see the real danger is ultimately the safer route - unless Paige completely turns on them. I still feel Philip can remain opposed to her recruitment (or at least attempt to delay it) but without all the lies poisoning the well. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Boundary

[soapfaninnc]

I credit Olga Korbut for changing some people's opinions of the Soviets. "Look at how adorable she is doing her floor routine! How can we bomb her?"

 

 

Oh, it was never the Russian people that scared me - it was the KGB. the Kremlin - the government.  I guess I was mostly afraid of the bomb. My Mom made a huge deal about the UN and Khrushchev and the shoe banging and burying us and stuff every time the Russians were mentioned. And she was very liberal and anti nuke - sort of like Pastor Tim - and she was an avowed atheist (at the time).

 

I still think if they want a good second generation illegal they need Henry. That's one sharp kid.

[RedHawk]

One moment that made me laugh in a tense episode was when Elizabeth told Henry to "put that damn thing down" and come to the dinner table. Cracked me up that she swore because 1) she was totally on edge after the Paige reveal, and 2) it was annoying as hell watching Henry playing nonstop with that game! (Some things haven't changed since the '80s.)

Edited April 3, 2015 by RedHawk

[90PercentGravity]

If I were Philip and Elizabeth and didn't want to tell Paige the truth, I would have told her that our family was living underground, with assumed identities, because of past work with radical anti-war, pro-civil rights organizations that got in trouble with the law. In the late 70's and early 80's a number of former domestic activists/terrorists (from the Weather Underground and similar organizations) were resurfacing after having lived for many years under assumed identities after having cut off all contact with their former families. This was in the news a lot and would have been something understood by Paige, and probably a lot more acceptable to her than being a Russian spy. But I guess the point was that Philip and Elizabeth weren't looking for plausible excuses any more.

On a separate note, I'm glad to see Stan starting to put together his previously subconscious suspicions about Martha. He's been mostly useless for so long -- I want to see him be a more formidable adversary for Philip & Elizabeth. It's no fun watching a fight between Muhammad Ali and some random dumb kid with one hand tied behind his back.

The problem with this is that Paige is a very curious girl. She would have been digging through old newspaper clippings looking for stories that wouldn't match up. They would have needed a lot of time to craft such a backstory that would stand up to scrutiny.

[DrSpaceman]

Outside them telling Paige about being spies, this was a pretty dull episode, doesn't seem like much else happened.

I don't think they could lie to her now and then recruit her later, or potentially recruit her as is desired by their superiors.

[DrSpaceman]

Giving money to local builders probably makes sure the school never gets built.  They wouldn't consider it corruption: they would consider it survival. 

 

I thought Pastor Tim was pretty spot on when he spoke with Phillip.  Paige desperately needs time with and guidance from her parents.  She just made a desperate plea for that with them.  Whether or not they go on that trip -- which is probably not going to happen -- P&E need to pay lots more attention to their kids. 

 

 

Absolutely.  The noose tightens.  Not just around Martha, but by extension P&E.  I still believe this ends disastrously for Martha. 

 

I also felt Stan picked up something amiss near the end, with Paige, at the Jennings house.

Somehow reading your response about pastor Tim made it all fit together with what he was doing and why Paige brought this up. She and Pastor Tim planned this out together obviously. Pastor Tim goes there to the travel agency with the Kenya trip excuse, tells him to "treat her like an adult", the then follow up by just asking them whats going on. The result of the two is basically "DOn't try and lie to me, tell me the truth and follow Pastor TIm's advice, treat me like an adult". Then she calls him and lets him know she did it as they discussed.

[RedHawk]

Outside them telling Paige about being spies, this was a pretty dull episode, doesn't seem like much else happened.

 

 

Well, we learned that Zanaida is indeed working for the USSR (Stan and Oleg were right!). And that Stan suspects Martha. 

 

I had been wondering when/if we'd see Taffet interview Stan. Interesting scene, especially the way it was filmed. IIRC there were rather odd closeups of Taffet, who seemed to be sweaty, although why? And I just don't understand -- doesn't Gaad know that Stan had "feelings" for Nina and probably acted on them (i.e., had sex with her)? Or at least suspect that Stan was compromised by her, and that Stan more or less admitted it to Gaad? When Aderholt questioned Stan about Nina it was pretty obvious that Stan was "guilty".

 

I was also looking forward to this week's scene with the mail robot and was disappointed not to get one. Perhaps it's plotting revenge on Gaad? 

P&E need to pay lots more attention to their kids.

 

 

Especially Henry! 

 

I think they established the buddy situation between Stan and Henry this week because we may soon see Suspicious Stan using it to find out more -- by asking Henry -- about the Jennings' lives.

Edited April 3, 2015 by RedHawk

[DrSpaceman]

I must be the only person who didn't like the Paige reveal. First of all, when she started demanding they tell her their deep dark secret "if they really loved" her, and then topped it off that Pastor McCreepy was involved in her decision to demand "the truth", I wish P or E would have told her that what goes on in the family is none of that douche pastor's business. In fact, I would have turned the tables on her and told her that they were very hurt and felt betrayed that she'd been talking about private family matters with outsiders. And then Little Miss Snoopypants gets all upset when they tell her. Well, then why did she ask, the snot?

I'm more interested in the spy stuff. Can anyone explain to me what was going on with the guy at the hotel? Why was Elizabeth trying to seduce the manager? That whole Yousef storyline was very confusing.

And why has Henry got such a hard on for Stan's soon to be ex-wife? That's kinda weird.

I think it would be hard to be upset and be mad at their own daughter for being a snoop and trying to convince her THEY feel betrayed when they have kept a secret from her her whole life about being Soviet spies.

And again, they can't lie to her now and not tell her the truth when the prospect of recruiting her is supposed to be happening soon. They couldn't make up some story or tell her she was wrong now, then turn around in a few weeks and tell her they lied, she lives in a spy family and now she is supposed to be one as well.

As for Henry, he is a heterosexual teenage boy. He would be hot for any attractive woman he knows

Oh and also, great movies references at the movie Theater. The Sting and Tootsie, both movies about deception, lies and secret identities.

Well, we learned that Zanaida is indeed working for the USSR (Stan and Oleg were right!). And that Stan suspects Martha.

I had been wondering when/if we'd see Taffet interview Stan. Interesting scene, especially the way it was filmed. IIRC there were rather odd closeups of Taffet, who seemed to be sweaty, although why? And I just don't understand -- doesn't Gaad know that Stan had "feelings" for Nina and probably acted on them (i.e., had sex with her)? Or at least suspect that Stan was compromised by her, and that Stan more or less admitted it to Gaad? When Aderholt questioned Stan about Nina it was pretty obvious that Stan was "guilty".

I was also looking forward to this week's scene with the mail robot and was disappointed not to get one. Perhaps it's plotting revenge on Gaad?

Especially Henry!

I think they established the buddy situation between Stan and Henry this week because we may soon see Suspicious Stan using it to find out more -- by asking Henry -- about the Jennings' lives.

I guess I wasn't shocked about Zanaida, has been pointing that way all season and the storyline would kind of fall apart if she was not. I guess we do know for sure now.

Stan seems to suspect everyone of everything......except his best friends the actual spies that live across the street from him

Edited April 3, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[stillshimpy]

Oh, it was never the Russian people that scared me - it was the KGB. the Kremlin - the government.  I guess I was mostly afraid of the bomb.

 

Yeah, I think there's a difference between thinking that the Soviet Union was an oppressive, war-waging country with citizens that were trapped under the dreadful weight of the Soviet Run state and thinking Russians were scary.  The Soviet Power structure was thought to be corrupt and prone to violence. 

 

I think people mainly felt sorry for the citizens of Soviet Russia, who we mainly thought of us trapped against their will    By the way, I'm the same age as Paige would be now.   It really was more that the Kremlin and the Soviet governing bodies were seen as inflicting deprivation upon their trapped citizens....who never had enough bread or toilet paper (we were very fixated on the bread and toilet paper lines).  

 

The soviet war in Afghanistan was not viewed favorably in the United States at the time.  It was also a time before the internet and the Soviet Union still seemed pretty dark and mysterious.  Plus, we're entering into the era of the dying Premieres (spoiler...I guess?)  ...and it was widely assumed they were actually being killed by the KGB.  

 

I don't think Pastor Tim is likely molesting Paige or any of his "flock" (that word bugs me, I'm not even sure why...wait, yes I am, it's a hair's breadth away from referring to people as sheep) ....I just think he's rather smugly self-righteous and has convinced himself he's essential and involved in the lives of all of his parishioners.  That he has some special status within their families.  

It's that part that makes him creepy to me.  Talking to Paige's parents as if he's her representative and knows her so much better, understands her so much better than her own parents.  It's insulting and it's arrogance cloaked in supposed righteousness. It's really quite-off-putting, I think.  

I've long led the charge in "Wait, what do they even think will happen when they tell Paige this?"  because it's sort of natural to assume she might freak out and turn them in.  I think Phillip and Elizabeth just went to work waited to see if their lives as they knew them were over, because it was essentially out of their hands at that point.  

Edited April 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[kikaha]

It occurs to me that someone at the hotel is going to catch hell for the stain on Elizabeth's mattress.  One of the workers, i.e. the people Elizabeth and the system she is working for claim to care so much about.  More collateral damage in the war to make the world a better place. 

[gwhh]

I thought the same thing. But at least she did not drop a car onto that person, or tie them up in the woods to die by accident.

It occurs to me that someone at the hotel is going to catch hell for the stain on Elizabeth's mattress.  One of the workers, i.e. the people Elizabeth and the system she is working for claim to care so much about.  More collateral damage in the war to make the world a better place.

[Boundary]

Somehow reading your response about pastor Tim made it all fit together with what he was doing and why Paige brought this up. She and Pastor Tim planned this out together obviously. Pastor Tim goes there to the travel agency with the Kenya trip excuse, tells him to "treat her like an adult", the then follow up by just asking them whats going on. The result of the two is basically "DOn't try and lie to me, tell me the truth and follow Pastor TIm's advice, treat me like an adult". Then she calls him and lets him know she did it as they discussed.

 

Coupled with the birthday ambush, this Pastor is either too brilliant or Paige herself is quite clever. I sense it's a mixture of the two. It's wonder that Philip and Elizabeth, whose job requires vigilance and an ability to anticipate the unlikely, get so wrong footed by Paige and seem unprepared for her curveballs.