S01.E09: Pimento

[Nekko]

Chuck was definitely duplicitous and should have treated Jimmy a lot better but perhaps due to my contrarian nature I think Chuck's feelings, if not his actions, are defensible. Chuck is largely right that Jimmy is still Slipping Jimmy.  He's trying to be good, but when faced with obstacles, it doesn't take that much to push him back into old habits.  He could've just let the Kettelman's go instead of hiring the twins, he could've just refused the money and reported the whereabouts of the Kettelman's instead of taking the money, pouring the coffee on the detective, and the billboard "accident" (I think they made it pretty clear that it was a setup).  Now some argue that this is because Chuck has been blocking him, but not getting a job a what is presumably one of the leading law firms in New Mexico doesn't justify what are pretty big ethical lapses that would get you disbarred or at least suspended.

 

Separately, Chuck's reasons for why they needed to bring the case to HHC were absolutely correct.  There's no way they could handle a case that size by themselves.  Jimmy didn't even have the resources to do basic legal research. 

 

But any statements about how easy it is to pass the bar, well I'd be skeptical of anyone who said it was easy, in any state.

 

Some states are supposed to be pretty easy, not sure if NM is one of them.  What often makes the bar exam hard is that it often covers things you never dealt with in law school or don't deal with on a regular basis.  Also it's hard because of the pressure you put on yourself because you don't know how good is good enough and the ramifications of failure are pretty large.  But a prep course with a month or two of hard core studying and I think a lot people could pass most bar exams with no law school experience if they were generally smart.

 

Presumably Jimmy can still have Chuck committed to a mental hospital and gain control over his finances.

 

Probably not anymore given his current state and even at the time I think it would've been difficult since the bar to have someone involuntarily committed is pretty high.

 

I doubt that most clients ask where an attorney got their degree

Probably depends on how legally sophisticated the clients are.  Law is a notoriously snobby profession so if it's a company general counsel doing the hiring, it's something that will be a factor.  If you have a big reputation, it's not a big deal if you didn't go to Harvard, but American Samoa would be a hard sell under almost any circumstances.

 

Also, I see people saying Chuck went to Harvard/an Ivy League school, didn't they indicate that he went to Georgetown?

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Also, I see people saying Chuck went to Harvard/an Ivy League school, didn't they indicate that he went to Georgetown?

Ah, but Georgetown is so selective, than even Meadow Soprano didn't make it.  And its law school may be more selective than some Ivy League law schools (Penn, Cornell).  (Sorry, lawyer.)

[nachomama]

Everybody's opinion of lawyers is bad, thus we expect them to be more slippin Jimmy than saints. So Chuck is wrong, Jimmy is lawyer material through and through. But most large firms have plenty of "creative thinkers", ie lawyers who skate just a hair away from the law and they're proud of it, they might not post the American Samoa diploma on the wall prominently. 

 

We have a lawyer here in town whose been disbarred, didn't shut his practice down, he can still get paid, he can still do the work or direct the way cases are tried, he just has to have other lawyers on the paperwork. He's definitely one of the lawyers guilty people hire but he has no shortage of clients. Something tells me Chuck wasn't such a model citizen in his practice of law, he just had higher class scams to run on people. 

[Nekko]

I meant no offense to Georgetown Law, it's a really great law school/Law Center...I mean not as good as my law school but anyway, just trying to clarify.

 

[edit]
A lot of firms do have people who are on the edge, but Jimmy, even in his trying to do good form, isn't skating on the edge.  His actions are flatout criminal.  I sympathize with him and think he's actually a really good lawyer, but his lapses are pretty huge.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Nekko

[editorgrrl]

A prep course with a month or two of hard core studying and I think a lot people could pass most bar exams with no law school experience if they were generally smart.

 

Also, I see people saying Chuck went to Harvard/an Ivy League school, didn't they indicate that he went to Georgetown?

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about passing the bar, but here's the relevant dialog from season 1, episode 8, "Rico":

 

Chuck: What's this? [scoffs] Is this a joke?

Jimmy: No, no joke.

Chuck: You passed the bar?

Jimmy: Yeah, I did. [sniffs] I thought if Kim could do it, maybe I can, too, you know? So I got my last few credits for undergrad from a community college. I mean, they're not just for draft dodgers and yoga classes, all right? Then I found a law school that would accept me. You know, wasn't Georgetown or anything, but…

[Ohwell]

Here in Virginia and four other states, you don't even have to go to law school.  There's something called "reader law," where you're basically an "apprentice" (for lack of a better word)  in a law firm. You're  mentored by other lawyers in the firm, I think they give you exams, and you do have to pass the bar.  The advantage is that you don't have to pay the high cost of going to law school.  So yeah, Jimmy was a step up from that because he did study at a law school, even if it was the Univ. of Samoa.

[RedBaron]

Chuck was definitely duplicitous and should have treated Jimmy a lot better but perhaps due to my contrarian nature I think Chuck's feelings, if not his actions, are defensible. Chuck is largely right that Jimmy is still Slipping Jimmy.  He's trying to be good, but when faced with obstacles, it doesn't take that much to push him back into old habits.  He could've just let the Kettelman's go instead of hiring the twins, he could've just refused the money and reported the whereabouts of the Kettelman's instead of taking the money, pouring the coffee on the detective, and the billboard "accident" (I think they made it pretty clear that it was a setup).  Now some argue that this is because Chuck has been blocking him, but not getting a job a what is presumably one of the leading law firms in New Mexico doesn't justify what are pretty big ethical lapses that would get you disbarred or at least suspended.

 

Separately, Chuck's reasons for why they needed to bring the case to HHC were absolutely correct.  There's no way they could handle a case that size by themselves.  Jimmy didn't even have the resources to do basic legal research. 

 

 

 

Except that Chuck did not know about the actions by Jimmy that you listed so I don't see them justifying his feelings.  I get that you're saying that Chuck just knows about Slippin' Jimmy and may be privy to actions by him that we aren't aware of but I still see the problem with Chuck's feelings is that he is clearly elitist and wants Jimmy to fail to somehow make himself feel better.  His reaction to Jimmy telling him he passed the bar spoke volumes; Jimmy is and will always remain his fuck-up brother -- regardless of whether he actually changes or not.  That somehow makes him feel better about himself.  I see Chuck's underlying feelings as coming from a bad place deep inside him not as those of someone who cares about his brother but sees the truth.

 

 

Some states are supposed to be pretty easy, not sure if NM is one of them.  What often makes the bar exam hard is that it often covers things you never dealt with in law school or don't deal with on a regular basis.  Also it's hard because of the pressure you put on yourself because you don't know how good is good enough and the ramifications of failure are pretty large.  But a prep course with a month or two of hard core studying and I think a lot people could pass most bar exams with no law school experience if they were generally smart.

    Probably not anymore given his current state and even at the time I think it would've been difficult since the bar to have someone involuntarily committed is pretty high.

    Probably depends on how legally sophisticated the clients are.  Law is a notoriously snobby profession so if it's a company general counsel doing the hiring, it's something that will be a factor.  If you have a big reputation, it's not a big deal if you didn't go to Harvard, but American Samoa would be a hard sell under almost any circumstances.

  

 

I disagree that someone who is "generally smart" could pass the bar in any given state with a couple of months of study.  A major part of the bar exam is how the questions are answered and that is something that takes law school to get the hang of.

 

The standard to have someone involuntarily committed is whether they are suffering from a mental illness and are an imminent danger to themselves or others.  Chuck definitely could have been committed  based on the doctor's opinion/recommendation and the police officers' statements.  I agree that he probably could not be committed now in his current state.

 

If the HHM firm had given Jimmy a chance and he did good work, where he got his law degree would not matter much IMO.  Most clients do not ask where their lawyer graduated from -- they just want to see results.  Jimmy/Saul got good results while being pretty affable.

Edited March 31, 2015 by RedBaron

[shapeshifter]

Chuck was definitely duplicitous and should have treated Jimmy a lot better but perhaps due to my contrarian nature I think Chuck's feelings, if not his actions, are defensible. Chuck is largely right that Jimmy is still Slipping Jimmy.  He's trying to be good, but when faced with obstacles, it doesn't take that much to push him back into old habits.  He could've just let the Kettelman's go instead of hiring the twins, he could've just refused the money and reported the whereabouts of the Kettelman's instead of taking the money, pouring the coffee on the detective, and the billboard "accident"...

Is Chuck aware of all of Jimmy's recent stunts that we have seen? We know he saw the billboard stunt, but I don't think he knows about the rest of the questionable (coffee spilling) and even criminal (Kettlemans) behaviors--but he does "know" Jimmy and the ease with which he falls into such ethically and legally questionable decisions and actions. So, if we can at least, for the moment, acknowledge that Chuck is right about Jimmy's character, there is still the question of Chuck's own motivations and duplicity. Is it possible that Chuck convinced himself that it would destroy Jimmy to have Chuck be the one to say he can not have a job and HHM (rather than just passing the buck to Hamlin because he didn't want to face Jimmy)? If Chuck did believe he was still "protecting" Jimmy from the awful truth of his brother's lack of faith in him, Chuck is probably still guilty of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Ohwell]

There's no question that he reverted to his former nature with the skateboard twins scheme. He wanted those Kettleman's legit business, but he used shady tactics to get it when his powers of persuasion failed him. However, I don't think that this in any way adds up to his being a "chimp with a machine gun". I find that characterization to be defamatory and without merit. Jimmy has never shown himself to be reckless, incoherent, imbecilic, or clueless (maybe a bit naive, but he's still new to this profession). Furthermore, aside from the skateboard incident (and perhaps his resigned acceptance of the bribe money), he hasn't even shown professional poor judgment. In what way is he a "chimp with a machine gun"?

Depends on what one means when they say it.  I know Chuck meant the phrase in a derogatory manner and to hurt Jimmy, but to me it means someone who is unpredictable rather than reckless.  Certainly not incoherent, imbecilic, or clueless.  I would want a lawyer who was perceived as half-crazy (even though he isn't and is smart and wily as hell), to scare the bejesus out of the opposing lawyer.  (Plus, a chimp could probably aim and fire a machine gun better than I or a lot of other people could.) 

 

So yeah, Jimmy as a "chimp with a machine gun"?  I love it!

[Nekko]

 

Except that Chuck did not know about the actions by Jimmy that you listed so I don't see them justifying his feelings.

Why is it important to know whether or not Chuck knew about these actions?  Chuck believes Jimmy will always be Slipping Jimmy based on his decades of experience having to bail out/deal with Slipping Jimmy.  I root for Jimmy because I know he's really been trying to do the right thing.  But it's really hard to say Chuck is wrong to disregard his prior experience with Jimmy given that we know Jimmy has been doing exactly what Chuck has been worried about.  Also, beyond his prior experience with Jimmy, Chuck has reason to suspect that Jimmy is not on the level given that he saw the medical bill for the twins and the news article re the billboard.  Don't get me wrong, Chuck is really elitist, handled things in a terrible way, and really has failed to acknowledge how hard Jimmy is trying, but in the same way Mike knew Jimmy would spill the coffee, it's hard for me to criticize Chuck for knowing Jimmy will do exactly the type of things that he's done.

 

 

A major part of the bar exam is how the questions are answered and that is something that takes law school to get the hang of.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Also, looking up New Mexico, it has like a 91 percent bar passage rate, really makes it hard for me to believe it's particularly rigorous.

Chuck definitely could have been committed  based on the doctor's opinion/recommendation and the police officers' statements.

I just have a really hard time believing that would be enough given the worst offense Chuck did was steal a newspaper.  Unless judges in New Mexico are really lax about it, involuntarily commitment is a pretty big deal and I don't think they showed enough to get it.

 

Most clients do not ask where their lawyer graduated from -- they just want to see results.

They do just want to see results, but they also care about covering themselves.  What happens if they don't get results?  If you're the GC or officer of a company doing hiring, how do you justify losing a case that you gave to the guy who went to American Samoa?  We know Jimmy's good (if ethically challenged) but let's face it, seeing the American Samoa diploma on the wall isn't reassuring (I mean that's part of the joke in Breaking Bad).  In terms of HHM, the American Samoa thing would be even more of an issue.  Lawyers care about where you went to law school for a ridiculous amount of time after you went to law school and even the most non-elitist lawyer is going to raise an eyebrow at American Samoa.

[RedBaron]

Why is it important to know whether or not Chuck knew about these actions?  Chuck believes Jimmy will always be Slipping Jimmy based on his decades of experience having to bail out/deal with Slipping Jimmy.  I root for Jimmy because I know he's really been trying to do the right thing.  But it's really hard to say Chuck is wrong to disregard his prior experience with Jimmy given that we know Jimmy has been doing exactly what Chuck has been worried about.  Also, beyond his prior experience with Jimmy, Chuck has reason to suspect that Jimmy is not on the level given that he saw the medical bill for the twins and the news article re the billboard.  Don't get me wrong, Chuck is really elitist, handled things in a terrible way, and really has failed to acknowledge how hard Jimmy is trying, but in the same way Mike knew Jimmy would spill the coffee, it's hard for me to criticize Chuck for knowing Jimmy will do exactly the type of things that he's done.

Uh YOU were the one talking about understanding Chuck's feelings and then listing all those actions.   I just pointed out that they don't justify his feelings if he doesn't know about them.

 

I've handled involuntary commitments so I speak from experience. 

 

We can agree to disagree about the importance of where a lawyer got his degree and how easy bar exams are.

 

Gotta go now but will be back later to better express why Chuck is a schmuck!

[henripootel]

Separately, Chuck's reasons for why they needed to bring the case to HHC were absolutely correct.  There's no way they could handle a case that size by themselves.  Jimmy didn't even have the resources to do basic legal research.

Well, not to be pedantic, but Chuck's was an argument for why they needed to bring the case to A big law firm, not necessarily HHC.  Chuck could just as easily have argued that they shouldn't bring it to HHC (because they'd never give Jimmy a job for ... various reasons) but some other firm (which would).  Add this to Chuck's asshole bill - he made sure Jimmy would absolutely fail by steering Jimmy to the one firm that would honor Chuck's request that Jimmy be blackballed.  I'm now searching for words stronger than 'Fuck you, Chuck'.  

Edited April 1, 2015 by henripootel

[Soobs]

Chuck was right about a couple if things:  1) Jimmy is like a chimp with a machine gun when it comes to working on cases, and 2) there will always be a bit of Slippin' Jimmy in him.  However, Chuck was wrong in seeing those as negative qualities.  If I'm hiring a lawyer, those things are exactly what I want in someone.  So yeah, Chuck can go fuck himself.  Tin foil bastard.

 

I'm still on the fence about Kim.  I like that she went to Hamlin on Jimmy's behalf, and I wouldn't expect her to leave her job in protest.  I think on the whole that she is a good friend.  It's a difficult position she's in because while she is a friend, I don't think she loves him at all.  She didn't want to be partners with him because I think she thinks of him the same way Chuck does--a chimp with a machine gun.  The difference is that, unlike Chuck, she can appreciate his hard work.  She just doesn't want to get "dirty" with him; she'd rather stay in the "prestigious" environment of HHM.   I still think that she sees Jimmy as some schmuck that she pityfucks on occasion because she can't do any better. 

 

I agree with the first part. I would totally hire Jimmy.

 

I get the sense Kim is very practical and while Jimmy is fun and exciting she may not want to build a life (personally or professionally) with someone who seems unreliable. I don't get the feeling she thinks she's better than him, just that she's looking for stability long term.

Edited to add: I'd love to see a little more back story on her too. HHM paid for law school and she kind of clings to her job so I'm guessing she doesn't come from money or stability.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Soobs

[Nekko]

Uh YOU were the one talking about understanding Chuck's feelings and then listing all those actions.   I just pointed out that they don't justify his feelings if he doesn't know about them.

 

Chuck has reason to not trust Jimmy based on the years (decades?) of experience with Slipping Jimmy.  The events described show that Chuck's continued mistrust is justified.  Whether or not Chuck knows that recent events confirm his mistrust doesn't seem relevant.  If he knows (and he knows about the twins' medical bills and the billboard), then he has more reason to not trust Jimmy, if he doesn't know then he still has reason to mistrust Jimmy, the events just confirm for the audience that Chuck's mistrust is valid.

 

My only experience with involuntary commitments is in the pro bono context, for a 72 hour commitment, I can see the doctor plus police plus Jimmy being enough, for the type of involuntary commitment at issue (the type that would allow Jimmy to be Chuck's guardian), at least in California I think it'd be a really tough sell, especially with his ongoing income from HHM and general coherence.

 

[edit]

Re bringing in HHM, yeah, it didn't have to be HHM, just they needed to bring in some big firm with the resources to take this type of case to the end.  Although, I think Chuck might have some legal obligation to bring it into HHM as a partner of the firm and the value of the case.  I mean it's kind of an issue for him to purposely push business that HHM would want away from the firm.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Nekko

[DrSpaceman]

I am going with the sentiment that Chuck actually helped Jimmy become Saul by not hiring him at the law firm. Much of what he has done so far that is questionable would not likely have happened if he was working for a reputable law firm, or some law firm. He got a law degree, thought his brother would help him out by getting a start and Chuck really didn't do much for him from them on, until he gets a huge case. If Chuck is more supportive and assists him some so that Jimmy doesn't have to be trying to scam people on the street for money, Jimmy may very well have ended up on a different path.

And there was certainly a middle path Chuck could have taken as well. So maybe he doesn't want him working at HHM, but I am sure Chuck knows other lawyers and firms in town. He could have suggested another one, made a reference, found him a job at another place in town, even use the excuse that it looks too much like nepotism if they hire him basically for being his brother. See how he does and then watch him. but he didn't even want to do this. Chuck just takes the attitude Jimmy with a law degree is bogus, never gives him a chance.

I guess you could argue Chuck doesn't want his "reputation" ruined in town by giving Jimmy a reference, but come on, everyone knows Chuck is delusional and psychotic (again, clinically speaking) by now, even the other lawyer that came to the house had heard. He has ruined his own reputation already. And yes I know even as a psychiatric condition, you need to be supportive and understanding medically, but still, seriously, who is going to hire Chuck right now as a lawyer? Not a sole. I wouldn't. We need you in the courtroom....sorry, everyone's cell phones off and lights out before I go in. Really? This is the perfect case for him, class action, the "class" doesn't really know who he is, the people are kind of faceless and unknown, not much direct client/lawyer interaction. If Chuck had to have direct interaction with any client and had smaller cases right now, no one is hiring him.

So in other words Jimmy does end up like a chimp with a machine gun, but I think Chuck with some guidance and assistance could have prevented it. By helping him more he would have been preventing that transition, not promoting it

Edited March 31, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[editorgrrl]

I guess you could argue Chuck doesn't want his "reputation" ruined in town by giving Jimmy a reference, but come on, everyone knows Chuck is delusional and psychotic (again, clinically speaking) by now, even the other lawyer that came to the house had heard. He has ruined his own reputation already.

In "Uno," Chuck told Jimmy that Howard Hamlin wanted Jimmy to change the name of his firm. In hindsight, it was actually Chuck who doesn't want Jimmy using the name "McGill."

Chuck started undermining Jimmy well before he suffered a psychotic break. (Or whatever his diagnosis—I just wanted to use the word "break.") in fact, it looks like guilt is what broke Chuck.

[Umbelina]

I don't think Jimmy would stoop to Chuck's level and ruin his brother's  life.  However, remember that doctor that examined him?  She was begging Jimmy to commit him.  So if Jimmy was as big a snake as his asshole older brother?  He probably could, through her.  He won't though, because unlike his brother?  Jimmy actually has a heart and a moral code that is ingrained, not printed on a law degree.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Much of what he has done so far that is questionable would not likely have happened if he was working for a reputable law firm, or some law firm.

 

Exactly.  His recent misdeeds would not have been necessary if he had been employed by HHM or somewhere else as an associate.  He has shown that he desperately wants to please Chuck and get his approval.  If he had gotten the chance, I could see him as a good litigator.  He is a people person.  He is a bulldog.  He'd do great in any number of areas.  He would stay on the straight and narrow because of Chuck.  His slippin' Jimmy persona had receded while he was working in the mailroom, studying, graduating and finally passing the bar.  He's only regressing because he wants so much to be a practicing lawyer, like his brother.  I doubt it would have mattered if he had openly attended a higher-prestige law school and graduated with honors.  Chuck would have found a way to torpedo him.

[SignGuy]

Pryce (I see him spelling it with a Y) is nervous, nerdy and far too fidgety to morph into the man who charges Heisenberg $10,000 to play gin rummy for an extra hour.

My closed captioning also sees Pryce with a y. And I'm not seeing nearly enough love on here for the whole drug deal scene. As intrigued as I am about the prospect of future BB cameos, I can live without them as long as we get these incredible callbacks, echoes, variations on the theme. The fidgety suburban drug dealer and his rationalizations, Mike's calm understanding of the game ... Even the location, like Walt's first junkyard deal. What's wrong with an Orange Julius or a Taco Cabeza?

[jnymph]

Whew. Incredible episode & amazing insight here. I'm too emotionally drained to post anything coherent right now. Except my heart broke in 2 for Jimmy.

[ToastnBacon]

First of all, let me say thank you for a long and passionate post. Although I disagree with the majority of what you are saying here, I do admire your enthusiasm for the show.

I also love the show, so at least we are in agreement on that.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[Ohwell]

I hope that, some how, some way, Chuck gets royally screwed over by HHM.  Also, I don't want to see him anymore after this season.  Id like to move on from Kim, too.

[Stratego]

I have to disagree that Chuck did jimmy "wrong". 1) Jimmy really is "Slippin' Jimmy"--only now he's a member of the BAR, 2) a law firm does have rules and Jimmy has shown that he's not restrained by them--would you want to be a partner with someone who takes bribes?, 3) Yes, Chuck has this "holier than thou attitude"--which seems to be consistent with what one would expect from a partner of a prestigious law practice--consider the challenges that Chuck had to overtake to get to where he is in Law. 4) HHM would never allow Jimmy to act the way he does (and would do as in Breaking Bad)--isn't Jimmy much happier in BB as the top gun of his own practice rather than as some associate in HHM? 5) Jimmy was ready to accept that measly settlement offer (about $92,000 wasn't it?)--yet it was Chuck that saw the real case and the likely payoff.  Chuck was right to advise Jimmy to defer to HHM, the have the staff (and skills) to wade through all that paperwork, legwork, and negotiations that Jimmy could never do. Plus, Jimmy gets much needed cash right now to start his own practice, and a generous payout (though not 20% of Twenty Million!) likely several hundred thousand dollars. Yes, Chuck is a conceited, self-rightous bastard--well, lawyers aren't refered to as shysters for no reason!

[LittleIggy]

Wow. No wonder Jimmy changed his name. With a brother like Chuck who needs enemies.

I loved Mike kicking that loud mouth's ass and throwing away his guns. He is so badass. BTW, was that abandoned place where the meet was the same place Gus's meth lab would be in BB?

[Pike Ludwell]

Good to finally see some posters come along who aren't seeing it all Jimmy: Good / Chuck: Bad. Chuck's only "crime" was not telling Jimmy from the start that he didn't want him in HHM. But he probably didn't tell because he has his own issues, and also Jimmy's issues would have led Jimmy to react too irrationally to the truth. Instead he encouraged Jimmy to take the more realistic path and make it on his own. There is no evil there and no basis for wanting Chuck to die because of this.

 

And Chuck was reasonable and realistic in not wanting Jimmy in the firm. Yes Chuck additionally also had emotional issues going that came out in the exchange at the end when Jimmy absolutely pushed him into being so blunt. But still, in addition to that, Chuck had overwhelming good, rational reasons for not wanting him in the firm.

Edited April 1, 2015 by riverclown

[Umbelina]

Chuck said it very clearly.  He wanted Jimmy to be content as a mail boy. 

 

What loving brother feels that is all his brother deserves?

What loving brother lies, hides, sabotages, and actively works behind his brother's back?

 

Chuck is gutless, and I'd take Jimmy over a cowardly saboteur like Chuck any day of the week, and 10 times on Monday.

 

Grow a pair Chuck, and try honesty.  Oh that's right, the "morally superior" Chuck wouldn't know honesty if it bit him on his tiny balls.  Hide behind your partner, steal your brother's case, and above all, lie, lie, lie, and then have the unmitigated gall to proclaim yourself a better person.  Dick.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Umbelina

[Ronin Jackson]

Chuck may have had good reason for not wanting him in the firm, but the way he handled it, getting Hamlin to do all the dirty work, even to the point of acting like he was shocked when Hamlin did his bidding, is slimy and cowardly. If he was an honorable guy he would have sat Jimmy down from the start and laid it out for him... "Look, Brother, you can't just get hired on in our firm with a degree from the University of American Samoa", etc. And the comments about him not being a real lawyer and essentially telling him his place was in the mail room, that's pretty damn scummy. It's more than just not wanting him in the law firm.

[Pike Ludwell]

Chuck said it very clearly.  He wanted Jimmy to be content as a mail boy. 

 

What loving brother feels that is all his brother deserves?

 

If they had hired Jimmy he probably would have just been back out on the street within a few years anyway. A few setbacks and he'd be going the overly sleazy ethics route and the firm would have canned him. To answer your question: The kind of brother who doesn't want his brother to end up like we see Saul in the very opening scenes of episode 1. Though he could have his great moments -- lawyering was out of his league. However I do think he was above "mail boy".  That said, I am enjoying the show, love the characters and am hooked!

[ketose]

Chuck can have his reasons for blocking Jimmy and still be an asshole. I think even giving Jimmy a job in the mailroom was kind of an asshole move. Considering his salary, Jimmy could never afford a "real" law school on his own dime. Kim certainly couldn't. Chuck is extremely delusional, but Jimmy is as well. He must have had some idea that Chuck would piss all over his plans to become a lawyer, since he spent years hiding his studies.

 

Saul has a lot of hustle in him. Chuck probably figured Jimmy getting a law degree was a hustle and maybe it was. What's really sad is that Jimmy was trying to emulate his brother and Chuck seemed to take it as Jimmy defiling something he believed in. When it comes down to it, Chuck wronged Jimmy entirely. Jimmy did nothing wrong. It's irrelevant if Chuck could justify his actions because he used all his power to make sure he never had anything to explain to Jimmy.

[queenanne]

Don't get me wrong, I think VG deserves heaps of praise... but I do think Peter Gould has been an equal partner in BCS. Schnauz did write/direct this episode. PG is writing/directing the finale. VG co wrote the pilot with PG and directed it... to date that's been the his only writing/directing credit in the series, while PG wrote two episodes and co-wrote one. Of course in the writers room VG obviously has his hands in the creative process throughout the series... My main point (which I could have made better initially) is that PG should get noticed more, not that VG is getting too much notice.

 

I have a feeling, no slight on any of the men, but this may be what the pros call "A Joss Whedon scenario".  Which is to say, if you ask a Buffy writer (I think this particular one was Jane Espenson), she says more times than you care to count, any time writers met fans enthusing about how much they loved said episode, the following exchange ensued:

 

"Oh, what did you like best?"

"the line about [blah-de-blah], it was just so FUNNY!"

"Oh thank you.  Joss wrote that; I didn't."

[Repeat approximately 4x per episode/line combination.]

 

Just to say that in showrunners running tight ships, it would not be uncommon for them to rewrite and have final pass on everything.  It may "all" be VG.

 

This is exactly the way I feel about it... I'll bet clients would rather have an attorney who is as hard-working and professionally savvy as Jimmy, especially after he's had the chance to prove himself in the courtroom and build his reputation, than one who only sees me for the number of dollar signs I represent to his bottom line (which is the way I see Howard, and probably Chuck as well). I doubt that most clients ask where an attorney got their degree, and if he worked for HHM, they would just assume he had gotten it at a good school.

 

I'm afraid that's not strictly true, in this world, the attorneys live and die by their website profiles.  Well, not literally, but nowadays, the overwhelming trend is, a web presence for lawyers online.  They used to hide their identities behind a firm so people couldn't cold-call them, but nowadays they even have the actual lawyers' actual pictures attached to their individual pages.  Said individual pages almost always go with a CV.  Firms go with a CV for the main executives, etc. for press releases.  If firms still have brochures, every single one of them lists lawyers' education.  The University of American Samoa will be attached to Jimmy's name countless times.  It can be argued as to whether or not anyone actually reads the bios; but I used to read liner notes, so I'm definitely the type of person who, bored in a waiting room, would read the attorneys' brochure like it was a Playbill.  Particularly astute people even used to call my firm and declare that the named partner on the masthead was not the human being named "Smith" on the masthead (they were correct; it was his son), just based on the listed retirement age of the partner emeritus on the masthead.

 

To me, him taking the cake shows that he's still an insensitive douche. If you just crush a guy's hopes and dreams with a fake smile plastered over your face (even if you're doing it on behalf of his cowardly brother), you don't then swipe the guy's cake too.  I still think Hamlin's a dick, just maybe not as big of one as he seemed before.

 

See now I thought of it more like... props.  Something to do with his hands.  (No, wait, that seems a little unlikely and generous an interpretation for Hamlin... he's not particularly uncertain, lol.)  OK, more like, "wanted to be seen as hail fellow well met, just one of the guys", which is a harmless vanity.  I guess I just don't attribute a lot psychologically to the acceptance of cake, even in the Villigan world, though maybe that's a dumb one on me.

[ketose]

If someone offers you cake, it's impolite not to take it.

[editorgrrl]

See now I thought of [Hamlin taking a slice of cake] more like... props. Something to do with his hands. (No, wait, that seems a little unlikely and generous an interpretation for Hamlin... he's not particularly uncertain, lol.) OK, more like, "wanted to be seen as hail fellow well met, just one of the guys", which is a harmless vanity. I guess I just don't attribute a lot psychologically to the acceptance of cake, even in the Villigan world, though maybe that's a dumb one on me.

On the "Better Call Saul" Insider podcast, Vince Gilligan and Patrick Fabian (Howard Hamlin) said there was a whole lot of discussion about the cake when shooting that scene. For example, Fabian insisted Hamlin would never just take the cake then throw it in the trash.

TPTB pay exquisite attention to every detail of what we see on screen.

Edited April 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[WicketyWack]

I assumed the guy was another veterinarian, referred by the first vet, selling ketamine.

 

My raging geekery forced me to zoom in on the bottle Nacho was examining. The name on it definitely started with OXY. I'm assuming Oxycodone. And, as someone whose ex was a Sketchy Vet ... veterinarians use ketamine in liquid form, as an injectable ;)

 

Also? If someone had told me 3 months ago that Bob Odenkirk saying "You want maybe, like, a safe word?" would be a seriously hot TV moment I would have called them a dirty liar. To MICHAEL MCKEAN, at that. 

[duVerre]

 

… wasn't the billboard thing a coincidence rather than a stunt? I don't remember it ever having been established that he orchestrated that event... he just happened to be filming a commercial with his billboard in the background when the guy fell. And then he risked his life and limb to rescue the guy.

 

is there any evidence that he set it up, other than the remark made by the guy who fell? I still feel as though that comment could be construed either way, and I don't remember there being any other definitive or overt proof that it was.

 

Well, there is no overt proof of the scam itself beyond "took you long enough," at least not in the sense of a scene with Jimmy thinking up the idea and outlining it on a napkin, or writing a check to the billboard guy, things like that. But "took you long enough" is followed by Billboard Guy and Jimmy just sitting together. They're pretty winded, so of course they need a moment, but they're also way too serene....their behavior is more "good, that's over with" than "God, that was close! We almost died!"

 

But more important is what came before the billboard scene. The episode contained a flashback to Jimmy in the 90s, when he leads a fellow drinker down a dark alley, only to find an unconscious man with a wallet full of cash and a Rolex. And that, of course, was all part of an elaborate scam, with the unconscious man as Jimmy's accomplice. Speaking only for myself, when I saw the billboard scene after the Rolex scam, it seemed pretty clear that the billboard was a scam as well. 

 

Another clue: Jimmy is so anxious that Chuck not see the newspaper story about the billboard that he doesn't bring Chuck his paper that day. If he truly had been a hero, I think he would be anxious for Chuck to know it. But he knew that Chuck would see it as the scam it was. 

 

Howard Hamlin called it immediately, watching it on the tv at work and saying "publicity stunt."

 

 

Chuck may have had good reason for not wanting him in the firm, but the way he handled it, getting Hamlin to do all the dirty work, even to the point of acting like he was shocked when Hamlin did his bidding, is slimy and cowardly.

 

This is something that puzzles me. I realize that HHM needs Charles McGill very badly. And I can see Howard "handling' Jimmy at Chuck's request--once, maybe. But doing it this time is so extreme--he has to act like an idiot (in the sense of "what in God's name does HH have against James McGill?") and like a monster too. I suppose Chuck told Howard that if he didn't do this, he'd leave the firm .... but considering his health, is that even a possibility for Chuck just now? Are these two guys just playing an elaborate game of chicken?

 

It mystifies me. And at this point in the series, maybe it's supposed to. Does anyone have an idea about this? 

[Nekko]

Hamlin could be doing it out of a sense of obligation or he just might be the designated heavy at the firm and him being a jerk is part of his schtick.  Chuck could credibly threaten to leave the firm.  Not sure any other firm would hire him, but with the amounts Jimmy was saying his share was worth, he could comfortably afford to live in his electricity free house and pay someone to collect his newspapers and do his shopping.  I mean, even with hiring someone to help you do errands, $17 million can go a long way if your only other expenses are food, water, taxes, and newspaper subscriptions.

[shapeshifter]

I'm more and more convinced that Chuck asked Hamlin to be his bulldog so Jimmy's feelings wouldn't be hurt by it coming from his brother, but that in reality, Chuck just didn't want to lose Jimmy's support or deal with the confrontation.

I doubt that Chuck realizes he is being a turd, since he's clearly in denial about so many things.

Maybe the electrostatic problem is his escape from facing that he loathes his brother.

Edited April 1, 2015 by shapeshifter

[queenanne]

On the "Better Call Saul" Insider podcast, Vince Gilligan and Patrick Fabian (Howard Hamlin) said there was a whole lot of discussion about the cake when shooting that scene. For example, Fabian insisted Hamlin would never just take the cake then throw it in the trash.

TPTB pay exquisite attention to every detail of what we see on screen.

 

Awesome... did they come down on the side of why Howard made the cakey decision he did?  Was the "not thrown in trash" outcome deemed "how nice white collar aristocrats would never act"?

 

This is something that puzzles me. I realize that HHM needs Charles McGill very badly. And I can see Howard "handling' Jimmy at Chuck's request--once, maybe. But doing it this time is so extreme--he has to act like an idiot (in the sense of "what in God's name does HH have against James McGill?") and like a monster too. I suppose Chuck told Howard that if he didn't do this, he'd leave the firm .... but considering his health, is that even a possibility for Chuck just now? Are these two guys just playing an elaborate game of chicken?

 

It mystifies me. And at this point in the series, maybe it's supposed to. Does anyone have an idea about this? 

 

But, DO they need him?  I too was wondering this... Why does Chuck get that kind of loyalty from Hamlin?  I mean, why in particular does Howard actively care?  Is it because they want to coax Chuck back?  Because Chuck had promised them he’d hand them Jimmy’s case?  How much of Chuck’s current suffering is Chuck, and how much of him is trying to hide from/avoid telling his brother the truth about anything?  If he’d go to these extents, doesn’t that mean he IS suffering?  Or adores Jimmy?  Because whatever else we see, we can see that Chuck has torpedoed his own life, quite clearly.  But weighing this; are we supposed to take the nursing home’s counsel’s reaction as gospel?  That maybe only Howard knows Chuck’s “real situation”, and the rest of HHM doesn’t know to care?  Because even then, it’s hard to imagine how this “soulless law firm” is simultaneously supposed to be longing for and wanting its (mentally ill) founder back at all costs.  Hasn’t he made them the laughingstock? 

Edited April 1, 2015 by queenanne

[Umbelina]

I think the law firm just doesn't want to have to buy Chuck out.

 

Although the standing ovation does lead me to believe he was well liked there.  He's probably nice to people, as long as it's not his brother.

[WicketyWack]

From the recap: (...does he have an old-timey pioneer [iron] he plans to heat up on his grill or something, or is he now fully done being allergic to electricity?)

Yes! It shows him putting an old-timey Monopoly-style iron on his camping stove.

[duVerre]

 

Why does Chuck get that kind of loyalty from Hamlin?

 

Yes, I'm stumped on that.  It's just so hard to believe that Howard would meet requests from Chuck to handle Jimmy with a salute and "thy will be done."  

 

I assume the writers will fill this out next season.

[WicketyWack]

I know, right? Who wouda thunk it? One half of Lenny and Squiggy doing that caliber of work.

 

I do remember Michael McKean as Lenny but when I see him I immediately think of his characters from 2 of my favorite comedies, the ridiculous British rocker in This Is Spinal Tap and half of the gay couple in Best In Show. Both of which he was brilliant in. He's had a remarkable career and I'm so impressed (but not surprised) he can hang with the heavyweights in drama ... similar to Odenkirk. 

This show just keeps getting better and better. I'm so FREAKING bummed there's just one episode left before a longgggg break.

 

ETA: Edited to correct that McKean played Lenny, not Squiggy. How could I have forgotten?

Edited April 1, 2015 by WicketyWack

[Irlandesa]

 

I have a feeling, no slight on any of the men, but this may be what the pros call "A Joss Whedon scenario".  Which is to say, if you ask a Buffy writer (I think this particular one was Jane Espenson), she says more times than you care to count, any time writers met fans enthusing about how much they loved said episode, the following exchange ensued:

 

"Oh, what did you like best?"

"the line about [blah-de-blah], it was just so FUNNY!"

"Oh thank you.  Joss wrote that; I didn't."

[Repeat approximately 4x per episode/line combination.]

 

Just to say that in showrunners running tight ships, it would not be uncommon for them to rewrite and have final pass on everything.  It may "all" be VG.

There are writers who are control freaks and do major re-working of scripts their writers prepare (See Weiner, Matthew and Sorkin, Aaron) to the point that the "written by" credit is almost meaningless.  I'm pretty sure it has been said that Gilligan isn't like this. 

 

Gilligan gets a lot of credit but I'm guessing it's because a show is more than the writing (of which he's heavily involved even if he only wrote one episode.)  It's about everything else from directors, writers, crew...and they're reusing many of that same group that Gilligan put together. And Gilligan is the one who has the reputation and is likely the reason it got the second season before it even debuted.  (Ah, my fearful days when I thought the delay meant bad things were happening with production.) So Gilligan will likely get most of the glory out of habit.  In order for Gould to rise, he'll have to create a show separate from Gilligan. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Consternation]

 What's wrong with an Orange Julius or a Taco Cabeza?

I was thinking the same thing.  Taco Cabeza. 

 

Of course Jesse is going to say that, he's not paid extra for security.  Mike will do it for $1500 and I'm sure he'd rather kick bad guy ass at a deserted location if necessary than run from cops at the mall.

[henripootel]

If they had hired Jimmy he probably would have just been back out on the street within a few years anyway. A few setbacks and he'd be going the overly sleazy ethics route and the firm would have canned him.

Quite possibly but here's the thing: then it would be Jimmy's fault that Jimmy ended up fired.  Instead, Chuck made that call and it wasn't Chuck's to make, to say nothing of the possibility that Jimmy might just prove to be a good litigator.  Chuck didn't do this to spare his brother the pain of an inevitable fall, he did this because he decided Jimmy was unworthy of even a shot.  And when Jimmy manufactured a decent opportunity for advancement, Chuck steered him into a deal he'd set up to kill it.  Cuz he'd decided Jimmy was undeserving.  Not Chuck's fucking call, and given the fact that it's his brother, unconscionable.  

 

What, does Chuck think every one of his classmates turned out to be Perry Mason?  Or that no one who learned from a not-so-great school ever provided solid representation?  Also not Chuck's call.  You don't want Jimmy sullying the good name of HHM, fine, but this doesn't give Chuck license to take a big steaming dump on Jimmy's aspirations.  

[RedBaron]

Chuck has reason to not trust Jimmy based on the years (decades?) of experience with Slipping Jimmy.  The events described show that Chuck's continued mistrust is justified.  Whether or not Chuck knows that recent events confirm his mistrust doesn't seem relevant.

 

 

You quoted the first sentence of my post and left the rest off which pretty much stated what I felt you might mean in your post and now you are basically confirming that.  It's relevant because Slippin' Jimmy was a long time ago.  If Chuck doesn't have anything more recent then he has consciously chosen to ignore that Jimmy has made great strides and is an extremely hard worker and very caring, supportive brother to him.  If he were paying attention to that, he might have felt the need to give Jimmy a chance instead of sabotaging his efforts and  looking down on him with such contempt.

 

Sure you can list Jimmy's questionable acts.  OTOH, He also could not leave the two idiot twins in the desert to die even though he could have walked away safely.  He put himself at risk to save them. He also put himself at risk to save the Kettlemens when he thought their family was in danger.  He also took steps to get them to got back to HHM and to take the deal which benefited them and his good friend while being a detriment to him.  He was extremely kind to the old lady who didn't have enough money to pay him and was actually concerned for her.  He spent a lot of his own time and money to make sure Chuck had what he needed at home and was very supportive and understanding of his obvious mental problem.

 

All of those actions illustrate someone who is caring, understanding, sympathetic, responsible and has a conscience. (As Mike would say, a good person.)  If Chuck had cared and scratched beneath the Slippin' Jimmy surface, he would have seen those qualities and nurtured them in his younger brother.  Chuck also should have been proud of him which is what Jimmy yearned from him.  Instead he only viewed him with disdain and as one-dimensional.   I agree with the poster who stated earlier that being only labelled as Slippin' Jimmy (and played for a fool) by someone he respected and loved ended up creating a self-fulfilling prophecy for Jimmy/Saul.

Edited April 1, 2015 by RedBaron

[Cthulhudrew]

The real asshattery of Chuck is that twice now he's not only screwed over his brother, but he's made Hamlin do his dirty work for him. I think Hamlin would have hired Jimmy both times if not for Chuck; at least that's my read on this episode.

[dwarmed]

Chuck's behavior proves he is more of a con artist than Slippin' Jimmy ever was. He's just better at hiding it. He sure played a long con on his brother. Chuck's real disdain is probably based on Jimmy being so obvious in his scams, acting like a two-bit hussler, rather than being the elegant corporate executive type of criminal. It's an elitist/class issue more than anything.

[ShadowFacts]

I think HHM would have hired Jimmy on with this class action, absolutely.  And in all likelihood the first time, also, if Chuck had thrown his weight behind him.  Then he could sink or swim, but he would have been given the chance.  I agree it has elitist/class overtones, but underneath it, Chuck is intensely insecure and jealous of his younger brother.  Hence the venom in his outburst and admission.  People like Jimmy, he makes them laugh.  Jimmy can't be a real lawyer and be liked, too, that might just overshadow ol' Chuck.  

[ToastnBacon]

Here is my take on why all the troops at HHM turned out in the lobby to applaud Chuck's return.

Hamlin ordered them to do it! Just as he ordered them to put their cell phones in the plastic bin and ordered the power shut down.

That isn't a good indicator of Chuck being loved and well liked at HHM. Chuck was probably very aloof and too busy to be the friendly, hand shaking, backslapping partner at HHM.

The real wild card in this is the relationship between Hamlindigo and Chuck. We haven't been shown what Hamlin really thinks of Chuck.

We only know that HHM would become insolvent if Chuck ever decides to cash out his partnership.

That alone is enough to make Hamlin jump through all sorts of hoops on Chuck's behalf. To include being the bad guy who kept Jimmy off the case and out of the firm.

I don't think that it is going out on a limb to say that Hamlin's loyalties lie with keeping the firm afloat and not Chuck.

If Hamlin wants to keep buying those Hamlindigo knit ties, it is in his best interest to drive a wedge between Chuck and Jimmy.

I'm sure Hamlin was scared shitless that Jimmy would gain influence over Chuck.

Little chance of that happening now.

[nachomama]

I think HHM not only doesn't want to have to buy Chuck out but part of me thinks maybe Chuck was Hamlin's mentor or something. Besides money he owes Chuck something, or based on Chuck's behavior with Jimmy, maybe he's got something on Hamlin. Perhaps a huge mistake early on that Chuck bailed him out, who knows. 

 

Chuck may be a legal genius in the sense that he can quote every book known to man and Jimmy is lazy, he'll hop on the easiest route for a quick buck but he reads people very well, he's a very quick thinker and in a courtroom he can turn on the charm. I think it would make him an excellent lawyer for HHM because he obviously worked hard to prove something to Chuck, if they hired him he would have worked to make Chuck proud. Once you prove yourself you don't do any work anyway, paralegals do your research you just show up for the big show (court). ymmv

 

Chuck should have realized Jimmy's potential (but then there wouldn't be a show) and used Jimmy as his public face, he could stay home reading by candlelight, and Jimmy go out into the toxic electrified world and they'd be unstoppable.