S03.E17: Suicidal Tendencies

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah, that happened. I didn't totally hate the episode. I'm more ... disappointed that this late in the season it feels like the show is still mucking around with random stories like the Suicide Squad. And it turns out it's not even really about Diggle, it's about Floyd Lawton. This story would have made more sense IMO earlier in the season, not right now when things are supposed to be ramping up for the big finale. And why kill off Lawton? He's one of your more popular recurring characters.

They also killed off Bronze Tiger in the comics.

Would this have anything to do with the movie? Can't two versions exist at the same time? But there's a movie Flash. My head hurts

 

I did like Oliver and Felicity's interactions. A little bit more truth gets spilled or reiterated every time and hopefully this adds up soon to a revelation for Oliver that leads him to DO SOMETHING! I was "eavesdropping" on a Twitter convo last night about Oliver being so passive and reactive these days and I was sort of nodding because that's frustrating me, too. I did laugh out loud when Oliver's takeaway from Felicity's reveal about Ray was that 1) he knows he's the Arrow and 2) he has his own mission to protect the city. Totally ignoring the whole "Super Suit." The reason behind this comes out later when he tells Felicity he's just like me. *rme* Except Felicity, of course, points out, well yeah but he wants to be a hero AND a human being.

 

Oliver and Ray. They made my head hurt. I was shaking my head throughout the "epic, epic" battle. Uhm, no.

 

Ray and Felicity. I did NOT enjoy their interactions this time. The moment Ray said I'd been honest with you from the start, I heard a screeching noise in my head. I was fine with him, I could just sort of gloss over his scenes with Felicity before. But now, NO! Goodness gracious! It's like Laurel all over again. I'm not understanding the decisions the writers are making for this character they want me to like. I really like Brandon Routh and feel bad that he got saddled with this. On the bright side (yeah, I try to look at those more often), his scenes don't feel tonally different from the rest of the show anymore :)

 

I'm sure some other thoughts will come out after I watch again. Didn't feel like it last night. At least I didn't feel like deleting it from my DVR right away like some of the eps after the winter break.

[tennisgurl]

Arrow, stop trying to make Ray happen. Its never going to happen! 

[Duke Silver]

Well.....  So this episode happened.  I actually watched live for the first time since like episode 9.  Waste of my time.

 

--if Laurel were consistently portrayed like she was in E17, I'd actually like her.  But she isn't, so E17 doesn't make a dent in my dislike of her.

--Ray and his constantly bloodshot eyes.  WTF is that all about?

--don't give two shits about Ray/Atom and nothing the show does will make me care

--starting to dislike Felicity, against my better judgment.  Guess I am starting to forget the awesomeness of her character from the first 2 seasons.  Fuck you all to hell, writers, for doing this to me.

 

Others have more eloquently expressed dismay over this episode, so I'll exit stage left.

Edited March 26, 2015 by cubbie5150

[statsgirl]

They changed the music in the opening scene. In the sneak peek, it was Chopin (I was impressed), in the actual episode it sounded jazzy and Muzak.  Not impressed at the catering to the demo.

 

I have no idea what they're trying to do with Ray Palmer. He just went from "real option" for Felicity to "the guy no smart woman should get involved with". He's excluding her from his decisions, he's keeping secrets from her, he's not trusting her. He's way worse than Oliver is, and it makes Felicity look desperate to stay with him.  I couldn't listen to their scene it was so bad.

 

Good things:

Diggle:  Oliver's right, it's our turn. Besides, Felicity and Roy have his back.

Good one, Diggle, Real Team Arrow all the way.

 

Also nice to see shirtless Oliver distracting Felicity again. But at this point, it feels like it's something on a list to get people to like the episode.

 

Bad things:

"Roy, this is the League. I've got it."  I swear, Oliver has the flattest learning curve ever. He can barely win a fight against one of them, much less more.

"I have a 140 IQ and 3 PhDs, it's pretty hard to insult my intelligence but I think you just did."  Can Ray be any more of a jerk?  First, 140 isn't that unusual, and second, no one gets 3 PhDs unless the last two are honorary because after you've got the first one, why bother taking classes any more?  Just go do the work.

 

Killing Deadshot, as well as Shrapnel and

Bronze Tiger

.  Deadshot was a reason to watch this show; Ray Palmer isn't.

My point was that even though he thinks it's doomed to fail because Ray doesn't realize yet the toll being a vigilante is going to take on his private life, he wants Felicity to have him and be happy before he does. 

 It still takes away from him wishing Felicity well.  He's not saying "I want you to be happy even though I love you myself, go with the man, make babies, live a good life", he's saying "I want you to enjoy these next few months before Palmer realizes he can't be with you and dumps you."

[kismet]

So if you remove the whole Atom V. Arrow, the show was not that bad. It was truly too short on the Dyla wedding & the suicide mission. But I loved that they put real issues like returning home from war & PTSD in the flashbacks. I truly felt for Floyd Lawton. Those flachbacks broke my heart. I hope that he is not really dead & when the suicide squad movie is over, they can hopefully him bring back. I wish they had spent more time on those relevant issues and the ss mission than wasting so much time on the made up angst between Ray & Oliver. I was upset that they didn't just have Ray trust Felicity and decide to help Arrow. It would have been so much easier and not have wasted so much valuable time. It was done for plot on top of plot. Similar to the reason that Ray had to be the officiant. I really wish the writers would just get back to writing ARROW and leave the teenage soap opera they are trying to write to other shows on the CW. I did appreciate the honest conversations between Felicty & Oliver, but those could have been done in the earlier portion of the show without the "epic" battler. The whole epic showdown was just stupid looking, esp after the interesting stunt work that was done earlier in the episode between all the arrows. I do not understand why they feel the need to make Ray so antagonistic. LIterally, he was such a douche in this episode. I know hes not gonna be a villian so what it the whole point of the antagonism? He could have showed how well the suit worked on the arrow imposters. He could have trusted Felicity intially. I do not even want their relationship to succeed and even I found this episode too much forced melodrama. I have reached my limit of Ray being forced down our throats. And seeing the suit in action, actually made me lose a little interest in the spin-off. And I will have to get back to how I feel about what they did with Felicity in this episode, when I have a more clear mind. Im still annoyed with it hours later.

 

But to end on a positive note, I am glad that Lyla resigned from Argus, maybe there can be a spot for her on team arrow even in a consulting basis so she doesn't have to put herself in harms way. I did appreciate the PSA that ARROW put on at the end of the show. But perhaps that is my biggest regret of this episode, that they had this amazing opportunity to tell more of Diggles story & Floyd's struggle and they wasted time on ATOM. PTSD & returning home from war are serious issues that are not covered enough in many shows, why did they have to waste their opportunity to give more attention to the issue? Also RIP Deadshot, you were a redeemed bad guy that I will truly miss.

Edited March 26, 2015 by kismet

[ratgirlagogo]

 

--Ray and his constantly bloodshot eyes.  WTF is that all about?

I don't get this either.  He looks like he ought to be on iZombie.  Is it supposed to indicate crazy overwork from building the Atom suit?

 

I would have liked a longer story arc with Deadshot, but this show has so many characters already that I get it.

[Carrie Ann]

Here's a random nitpick that's actually really bothering me: this was only our second shirtless Oliver scene of the season, right? The other being his fight with Ra's. Where he was run-through with a sword on the right side of his chest. So...where's the scar? I guess I noticed it missing because in the hiatus, I was sort of looking forward to the team seeing his big death-wound. But, there is just nothing there. Kind of a big thing for the makeup team to miss, but I'm guessing they never updated their scar-map after 309. Feels sloppy though.

[apinknightmare]

Here's a random nitpick that's actually really bothering me: this was only our second shirtless Oliver scene of the season, right? The other being his fight with Ra's. Where he was run-through with a sword on the right side of his chest. So...where's the scar? I guess I noticed it missing because in the hiatus, I was sort of looking forward to the team seeing his big death-wound. But, there is just nothing there. Kind of a big thing for the makeup team to miss, but I'm guessing they never updated their scar-map after 309. Feels sloppy though.

 

It's there, just not in the place they showed him getting stabbed. It's right above his stomach in the middle of his abdomen - a crescent-shaped mark. They also had the exit wound on his back. Not sure why they moved it when it was clearly showed that he was stabbed on his right side, but they've retconned ever since he woke up in Tatsu's shack.

[catrox14]

Dear Show,

 

Congratulations. All for the obsession with making Ray Palmer into Phony Stark, you actually had to do it on the backs of Felicity and Oliver.  You reduced Felicity to nothing more than a pawn between two men. You have Oliver give Phony Stark a lesson just so Phony can have the girl Oliver really loves??  WTF is that shit about?  I'm sorry is it 1955?

 

Fuck off Guggentroll. You have failed this show.

[Chaser]

Did anyone else side-eye all the 'prove' yourself going on? Oliver tells Ray he doesn't have anything to prove to Felicity, Oliver tells Ray to prove himself to Felicity, Felicity tells Oliver he proved her right and I got the very uncomfortable feeling that Ray wanted Felicity to prove herself to him (and they stupidly made it feel like thats what she was trying to do in the final scene with Ray). I feel like that were trying to say something here, but I can't get a cohesive grasp on what they where trying to accomplish. Maybe a call back to Diggle's speech in the dinner about how its not about changing a person, but finding the right fit? But that seems to deep for them. I just don't know..

Edited March 26, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[TanyaKay]

Or A Train-wreck On Meth (that's why his eyes are so red)

oh boy this is perfect ...

[apinknightmare]

Did anyone else side-eye all the 'prove' yourself going on? Oliver tells Ray he doesn't have anything to prove to Felicity, Oliver tells Ray to prove himself to Felicity, Felicity tells Oliver he proved her right and I got the very uncomfortable feeling that Ray wanted Felicity to prove herself to him (and they stupidly made it feel like thats what she was trying to do in the final scene with Ray). I feel like that were trying to say something here, but I can't get a cohesive grasp on what they where trying to accomplish. Maybe a call back to Diggle's speech in the dinner about how its not about changing a person, but finding the right fit? But that seems to deep for them. I just don't know..

 

I think what they were going for is that Oliver and Felicity are comfortable with who they are with each other and to each other - Felicity wholeheartedly believes in Oliver as a person and a hero, and Oliver's faith in Felicity is unwavering. Felicity and Ray do not have that. Not on a romantic level and certainly not on a vigilante and partner level. 

[Guest]

Oh, I remembered a good thing about the episode. Diggle/Oliver bromance continues to be awesome. I love them. 

[kismet]

So, I have a question: Do you guys think the writers expected viewers to see/understand Ray's side?

I can see how on paper that could work. At least in the sense that while people might not be Team Ray, they'd still understand and have sympathy for his position. But the way it translated on screen left me pretty much thinking, "GTFO Ray! And never come back!"

Also, if they wanted Ray included in Starling City's govt. so badly, why not just make him the Mayor?

Well because then they would have to kill their shiny new toy too soon, since tragic death is the fate for all mayors or will be mayors of SC.

 

I can understand how everyone was a little hurt by the lies, but FS did not owe it to RP to reveal OQ secret id, just like she didnt owe it to OQ to reveal RP plans until they each put each other in harms way. But RP owed it to her to tell her the suit worked, the suit that would not work without her. That was perhaps the most annoying part is that he claimed he wanted her as a partner but nothing in this episode (& TBH in previous episodes) proved that he was willing to be her partner. I'll understand he's POV or side of the story when he proves that his side is worthy to listen to. He deserved nothing this episode except the emotional & physical beat down he got.

[Carrie Ann]

It's there, just not in the place they showed him getting stabbed. It's right above his stomach in the middle of his abdomen - a crescent-shaped mark. They also had the exit wound on his back. Not sure why they moved it when it was clearly showed that he was stabbed on his right side, but they've retconned ever since he woke up in Tatsu's shack.

 

Oh my God. It is so far off from where the sword went in, I completely wrote that scar off as being an option for the deathblow. Terrible. Here's a post on it if anyone else is curious. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

"I have a 140 IQ and 3 PhDs, it's pretty hard to insult my intelligence but I think you just did."  Can Ray be any more of a jerk?  First, 140 isn't that unusual, and second, no one gets 3 PhDs unless the last two are honorary because after you've got the first one, why bother taking classes any more?  Just go do the work.

 

I totally heard that line and thought Walter from "Scorpion" won't even accept you on his team, Ray. As for the PhDs, well, they could be for unrelated fields, right?

[Password]

Oh my God. It is so far off from where the sword went in, I completely wrote that scar off as being an option for the deathblow. Terrible. Here's a post on it if anyone else is curious.

Wooooow. They didn't even try!

[BkWurm1]

Ray claiming that he's always been open and honest with Felicity, literally right after he's admitted that he didn't tell her that the flying suit they've been developing works.

 

Since apparently I like torturing myself, I rewatched all the non Suicide Squad stuff, and right before he pulls out the like about always having been open with her, after she’s telling him her feelings for Oliver are over now, he comes at her with this mocking look and says, “And, and, what?  Now I’m supposed to trust you?”  You can see that Felicity just shuts down.  He might as well have slapped her. 

 

I don’t want Ray to be her guy but it kills me that Felicity has had to go through all this emotional torture with Oliver only to think she’s finally found a way and person she could be happy with and it’s like he’s instantly shut her out.  I honestly don’t think it has been easy for Felicity to let herself take the chance on Ray and she’s done so much for him and given of some much of herself and he doesn’t understand. 

 

He thinks that because he laid out his loss with Anna he’s been open and honest.  Maybe he has about his feelings and intentions but then, when has Felicity not been honest about her feelings?  She’s with him and has been helping him at all stages of this crazed project that he could never have even started without her abilities and he’s judging her on a secret that he would have expected her to keep for him?  Not to terribly long ago he admired the Arrow and wanted to help him. 

 

I’m trying to get my head around what is going on and all I can think is Anna would have not kept any secrets from him and he projected an expectation that wasn’t earned or warranted.  Felicity hasn’t deceived him, she just hadn’t let him in on all parts of her life.  I hate how small he made her feel. 

 

Maybe because he’s normally a pretty affable guy, but his snide dismissal of her pretty much from every aspect of his life was worse than anything I’ve seen from Oliver.  I want to say he was hurt and lashing out and he probably was but he was so quick to walk away and ignore everything she was telling him.  Why hadn’t Felicity earned any faith?  Why was he able to act so cold so quickly?

 

And then in his scene with Laurel he’s right back to the grinning trust me dude.  I would have rather him been angry or impatient.  Instead he was just so damn smug as he handed her what he says is indisputable proof.  I’ve never hated Ray before but the smiling happy guy is just a surface persona and this guy, this guy I hated.   

 

I’m sure we’ll find out about deep personal betrayals in his past to justify his behavior but right now I have no reason to be understanding about his emotional issues.  I only know what Felicity knows and he had been acting like a good guy with her, over the top back in his hiring phase but his whole plan hinged on her so I get why he pulled out all the stops when he didn’t know her personally but he does know her now and he knows she’s had a terrible year and now he’s showing he can’t be trusted not to hurt Felicity. 

 

I really wish Diggle had been around to make good on his promise.

One of the greatest things about Felicity is that she has been willing to call Oliver out on his crap. She did so in this episode. But here, she didn't call Ray out on any of his shit. She did defend Oliver, which was great, but overlooked a lot of other problems here.

 

They are not in an equal relationship emotionally anymore.  I’m not saying that she has stronger feelings for Ray than he for her but I think making this relationship work means more than just being with Ray.  If the relationship works, it’s proof that Oliver is wrong.  What Ray says he wants is exactly what Felicity wants and it feels like she’s almost a little desperate to hold on to Ray to prove that a person can want to save the city and have a life. 

 

In her argument with Oliver after he talks to Palmer when she’s listing the things Ray has said he wants, true partner in everything, she sounds like she’s a little girl trying to still believe in Santa Claus.  The only thing she said with real conviction is that she deserved to be with someone that isn’t afraid of being happy because that was about her.  The rest of it was Ray said this, Ray said that followed by Oliver jumping in feeling vindicated since he’s certain Ray just doesn’t know any better yet.  

 

It’s a mess right now because it seems in order to prove to Oliver that he is wrong, Felicity needs to prove that staying in a relationship with Ray works, but the thing is, Ray IMO by not telling her when the suit worked has already proved what Oliver was saying as true.  He chose the mission over this true partnership he says he wants.  It did it again after he refused to trust her judgment. 

Ray says he wants these things that Felicity wants but he’s not willing to deliver when it counts.  He wouldn’t listen to Felicity.  He wouldn’t trust her judgement.  Ray may be as pig headed but he isn’t just like Oliver because one thing Oliver has always done was trusted Felicity. 

 

Yes Oliver did his homework but if Ray wanted, he could have done his, but he didn’t bother to ask or dig into her secrets.  I thought it was because he trusted and respected her.  Now I wonder if it just wasn’t important enough for him to bother. So, yeah, as much as she might try to make it work, this thing she has with Palmer is doomed. 

 

So Oliver is right about relationships and yet…

 

The real answer, the obvious one that no one is willing to talk about is that while one man can’t be enough to the city and for a family, that is why he doesn’t fight alone.  It is the system of support that makes it possible for Diggle and Lyla to take their turn and have a life.  It’s the balance that can be achieved when a group is all striving for the same goals and sharing the burdens and lightening the load when it’s needed.  It’s training up multiple heroes that can step in and continue the run when it’s time for someone else to sit down.

Edited March 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Delphi]

To be fair the new scars look a bit more pronounced than the the scars on his chest, sticking up far more l higher on the skin. As if is supposed to be still healing, but those scars on his back should not look that raw and pink after one assumes three years at least of healing time. But that could also be the lighting.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Delphi

[BkWurm1]

And to reduce the entire confrontation to being about Felicity? WTF? I love Felicity as much as anyone, but that was the dumbest reason to have a hero vs. hero fight. What were they thinking?

 

I didn’t feel like that was the case.  Palmer believed something and Felicity’s word wasn’t enough.  It was sadly not about her.  He dismissed her as not mattering.  On Oliver’s side, he kept trying to make Ray listen to Felicity but they weren’t fighting really about Felicity.  The only point where it was made about Felicity is when Oliver said she chose Palmer…but she didn’t chose him over Oliver so the fight wasn’t about her so much as the truth about Oliver but for some reason the only way to prove Oliver innocent was for Ray to trust Felicity?

 

The final scene with Felicty and Ray, it again suffered a tonal problem.  Felicity showed up as if she already knew that Ray was sorry and felt bad and had a change of heart and while Oliver beat him and then offered his hand (in friendship?) we had no way of knowing how Ray was feeling and neither should have Felicity. 

 

He seemed sincerely regretful for his behavior but the guy in that scene doesn’t line up to the snide jerk that had been running around.  I needed something more than his quick about face.  He had the right attitude I just don’t understand what got him to that point.  Maybe if he’d said more than his ego was bruised.  It implies he knows how stupidly arrogant he was acting but it’s not enough.  It’s too vague to make their full reconciliation believable. 

 

--

After rewatching I’m thinking that Felicity thinks Oliver convincing Ray to trust her and fixing her relationship was proving her right in believing that she had found someone that could be both a hero and want external happiness.  I think that is what the kiss on Oliver’s cheek and the “Thanks.  For proving me right,” was about.  Which still leaves me confused about what Oliver really thinks. 

 

Diggle says Oliver was right and that doing what they do and having loved ones at home is complicated and Oliver surpises me by not sticking with his normal black and white viewpoint but saying “Well, the things that matter always are.” 

 

Is it progress that Oliver now has gone from “can’t” to “agreeing it’s complicated?

Edited March 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[LeeshY]

OK, I'm a little confused about all the Ray Palmer hate happening. Let's take a step back....Oliver was on a boat cheating on Laurel with Sara, got stuck on an island thinking Sara had died, fell in love with Shado, who died. Then came back, had many many smoldering looks and whatnot with Laurel again, then that didn't work, then Sara's back so he's deeply DEEPLY in love with her AGAIN (and let's not forget the little side trip of sleeping with Isabel folks), then Sara dies AGAIN and suddenly I'm supposed to accept he's now totally in love with Felicity and has been all along? Sara hasn't been dead THAT long for him to suddenly be all....oh, Felicity, I do love you, I hadn't recognised until now. Felicity's been in love with him for yonks so I stand up and APPLAUD her finally getting over Oliver and finding love. So I am truly, utterly perplexed at this outpouring of saying nay to Ray (yeah...I wrote that). Oh! Oh! And who the heck was that random woman he ran into when on The Flash? At the coffee shop?

Anyway....TV suspension of reality aside, I don't want Oliver with Felicity. I've liked Ray from the start and he's been into her from jump...no hesitation, no minced words...no LOVE AFFAIRS WITH THREE OTHER PEOPLE before finally "seeing the light". He gave her the respect and attention she so deserved and sorry (not sorry) but there is chemistry there. The writers got an A from me on that front. "'Bout damn time" is what I yelled when they finally hooked up.

And adding a little real life, every relationship has those initial bumps when trust can be tested, but the writers aren't trying to make him the bad guy. He recognised his mistake and apologised (and a little side rant, Felicity should have sat him down, and TOLD HIM EVERYTHING instead of high level summaries which left him to draw his own conclusions rather easily, but that's "TV drama"for you). And frankly, I don't see why this is HIS fault. Felicity also didn't tell Oliver about Ray wanting to save the city. Seems like the theme of not talking continues, as if Ray knew Oliver's quest from the beginning and vice versa, this whole episode could have centered on Diggle and Lyla and their Suicide Squad, which I immensely enjoyed ("I take it back....I want to die").

So no, I will not jump on the Ray Palmer hatred bandwagon. He's does one thing wrong (I can't think of another thing he's done other than be clueless to what is going on) and it's to the wolves he goes, whereas Oliver's been stringing Felicity along for THREE SEASONS and suddenly I'm supposed to support his turn of heart? No I say. I still love Oliver, Oliver with tight pants on, Oliver shirtless, Oliver being all sexy sword swiping...but that doesn't mean I think he deserves Felicity. She deserves to be with someone who loved her from jump, and I for one hope that the writers make them a true force. Maybe that random woman from The Flash coffee shop will be explained and Oliver will have yet another little trip down love's lane and leave Felicity to enjoy hers.

Edited March 26, 2015 by LeeshY

[blixie]

 

Feels sloppy though.

 

Roy's singed body hair agrees. Those photos do make me see what people were talking about Amell looking less taut than usual, which I can't blame the guy if Ra's al Ghul can have a beer gut, than by God the Arrow can skip a work out! 

[kismet]

Confusion reigns because idiots reigned first.

 

 

Exactly what I was going to say. Never thought there'd come an ep where I liked Laurel more than Felicity. And just when I thought the writing couldn't get any worse, MG and his crack writing team manage to surpass themselves. They've pretty much reached BATB levels of bad at this point. It's hard being a left coaster. By the time I get here there's nothing left to be said. Just as well as I'm so annoyed right now I can't even be bothered to string together cogent thoughts about how awful that was.

 

ETA: They need to start paying SA hardship pay for having to sell this unmitigated trainwreck of a season. 

I love BATB, but they are an inferior show plot wise to Arrow so my expectations for that show are lower and even they managed to pull off the forced identity w/ forced love triangle better than this. Arrow deserves so much more than this. BATB at least owns its problems. They never come out claiming to be epic and game-changing every week, only to fail week after week unless of course the plan is to make people lose interest in the show, that is a game changing concept.

 

Ultimately, Arrow writers need to get their heads out of their colons and starting writng to the potential of the show and its characters and not to the lowest denominator. They had moments of greatness this episode Dyla wedding & Deadshot, but then they really self-sabotaged themselves by trying to make it all about the ATOM. I truly can't figure out their motivation or tunnel vision this season.

Edited March 26, 2015 by kismet

[Menrva]

Wow. After reading all these pages of frustration and disgust, I'm thinking A.T.O.M. should stand for A Total Oblivious Mess.

I haven't had the chance to watch the episode yet, but something tells me I could find something more enjoyable to do with 42 minutes. Like scrubbing a toilet. Or cleaning tile grout.

Yeesh.

[blackwing]

Sad a show has to fail because they wanted another spinoff.

 

I am fervently hoping for an ATOM spinoff show.  I want Ray Palmer, Brandon Routh, and his crazy eyes OFF of ours ASAP.

[dcinmb]

I love BATB, but they are an inferior show plot wise to Arrow so my expectations for that show are lower and even they managed to pull off the forced identity w/ forced love triangle better than this.

IMO, the Cat & Gabe "relationship" was the biggest fail to have ever failed in the history of fails. I'd have been much happier if Cat had gotten together with some random guy she picked up off the street. To get together with the guy who tried to KILL her and was responsible for tearing her and Vincent apart? Unacceptable in my book. I doubt even MG is capable of stooping to that level of stupidity.

I've stuck with BATB because of my love for the actors and the undeniable chemistry of KK and JR and it's starting to get to that point for me with Arrow as well. As painful as it will be, I'm in for the duration as long as they keep giving me Original Team Arrow. For now.

[kismet]

That line seemed very childish to me. But it's not like Felicity was off point (Oliver didn't refute her). At that point Oliver didn't want her to be with Ray because he's on the same path as Oliver so he wants to keep Ray far away from Felicity as possible because he doesn't really want her to get hurt. But then again, that's not his choice and he knows that. But that doesn't mean he likes it. It's the 'never' that's sort of hyperbolic imo. Because Felicity KNOWS Oliver was supportive of them at the wedding. 

 

 

 Oliver did refute her, in the same sentence he said he did want her to be with Ray, until he found out about Ray's mission. However, Yes, it was very immature, and uncalled for. And made her look like a self-centered person, which we know she is not. 

Yep, Felcity made to look like a petty bitter ex again. Score one for lazy writing. Say what you will about Oliver, but he has been nothing but supportive of Felicity moving on with her life and being happy. He had every right to be a little mad with RP/Atom after their conversation in PT. He was trying to be the bigger man and for once use open commmunication to discuss with Ray what was really going on. And to be honest, Ray's response to him was bitter, juvenile and did sorta make him sound a little off. Of course, OQ is gonna be upset that FS has chosen to move fwd with a vigilante who seems hell bent on not seeing reason. They are both stubborn, but the difference is OQ actually stops and listens to FS, while RP does not. OQ did not deserve the bitterness from FS, it was petty and yes not the FS we've known for 2.5 yrs, but sadly sounding more like the FS she is becoming since spending more time around RP. OQ is not without blame for some of his unhappiness this season, he has chosen to isolate himself and protect those he loves from himself. It breaks my heart that he doesn't feel worthy of being loved, but he has done nothing to sabotage RP/FS relationship. He never wanted RP hurt like FS accused him of. And he is right about RP not realizing the toil being a vigilante will take on his life. It was also a little cruel to accuse OQ of not wanting to be human - it was a low blow, below the belt hit. OQ is trying, FS knew that earlier in the episode, I dont know why she decided to conveniently forgets it during their argument. When will she realize that what he is doing for her is out of love and not spite? (I know the answer will probably be May, but its getting old already) He loves her so much that he is protecting her from his greatest enemy himself. Its not him trying to control her or take away her agency.

Of all the dumb things that happened in this episode, Ray officiating at Diggle's wedding was possibly the dumbest. I mean, seriously, Felicity didn't even have to offer to make someone else a minister if they could get her a laptop and wifi. Anyone in that room with a smartphone could have gotten themselves ordained in like five minutes. I know that I would rather delay my wedding for five minutes so that the officiant is a friend who knows me than have the wedding start on time and have the officiant be someone I don't know or like. This is your wedding, joining your lives together in front of all your loved ones, not having someone swipe your groceries over the scanner at the cash register. It should at least be someone you met more than ten minutes ago.

Or since they wrote their own vows anyway, they could have just skipped the need for an officiant anyway... All Ray had to do was offer to sign the license, he didn't need to showboat his comedy skills and Arrow could have saved money on buying the laugh track.

[tennisgurl]

 From now on, I think I am going to refer to Ray by the name the internet has given him: TinCan Iron Man! 

[kismet]

Said it before, saying it again: Ray Palmer - douche in the comics, douche on this show.

Is he really a douche in the comics?

[Delphi]

I never got that impression. Ray actually had a pretty rough go of it in the comics especially after Identity Crisis. Add I've said before This shows Ray is in almost every way Ted Kord and the two characters just mash into a likable character.

[kismet]

IMO, the Cat & Gabe "relationship" was the biggest fail to have ever failed in the history of fails. I'd have been much happier if Cat had gotten together with some random guy she picked up off the street. To get together with the guy who tried to KILL her and was responsible for tearing her and Vincent apart? Unacceptable in my book. I doubt even MG is capable of stooping to that level of stupidity.

I've stuck with BATB because of my love for the actors and the undeniable chemistry of KK and JR and it's starting to get to that point for me with Arrow as well. As painful as it will be, I'm in for the duration as long as they keep giving me Original Team Arrow. For now.

Thats exactly how bad I believe this triangle has become on Arrow. At least BATB didnt try to sell it as epic or viable. There was very little public love for the Gabe relationship from the producers. It was an EPIC fail on all accounts and this triangle is no better. It just sucks that both shows threw strong female characters under the bus for their dumb plot purposes. But luckily that mistake is behind them and moving fwd we wont have to deal with any other epic failures on BATB.

 

The italiacs are also why I love BATB & Arrow. I just don't know why Arrow is choosing to take us down this dark path. I mean there are a million other ways they could tell their story and maximize on the natural chemistry of their cast.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe that random woman from The Flash coffee shop will be explained and Oliver will have yet another little trip down love's lane and leave Felicity to enjoy hers.

 

That random woman from the coffee shop was explained. It's the woman he got pregnant who Moira paid off to tell him she had a miscarriage. 

[catrox14]

Did anyone else side-eye all the 'prove' yourself going on? Oliver tells Ray he doesn't have anything to prove to Felicity, Oliver tells Ray to prove himself to Felicity, Felicity tells Oliver he proved her right and I got the very uncomfortable feeling that Ray wanted Felicity to prove herself to him (and they stupidly made it feel like thats what she was trying to do in the final scene with Ray). I feel like that were trying to say something here, but I can't get a cohesive grasp on what they where trying to accomplish. Maybe a call back to Diggle's speech in the dinner about how its not about changing a person, but finding the right fit? But that seems to deep for them. I just don't know..

"PROVING GROUNDS" should have been the name of the episode.

[bmoore4026]

Is he really a douche in the comics?

 

- Became barbarian warlord for a time in the 80s

 

- Regressed physically to teenage years in the 90s and screwed up the Teen Titans (though one of the characters from his version, an energy girl named Argent, did get a number of fans and remained a member when the Titans we know and love came back)

 

- Ex-wife was behind the Identity Crisis plotline, in which she killed the wife of Justice League member, former Atom colleague, and all-around fun hero Elongated Man because Ray drove her insane.  At least, that was her excuse.

 

So, yes.  He's a douche.

Edited March 26, 2015 by bmoore4026

[Delphi]

I don't it's fair to blame Ray for Jeans insanity, she did that all herself. She killed Sue so that Ray would come home to her under the pretense of protecting her.

[Password]

Ray is such an interesting character. I mean he invokes very powerful emotion from people with his words and actions.

I've been reading different comments sections just because I want to see different POVs about Ray and it's so varying. Some say he's so sweet, that that last scene with Felicity really makes you see how much they care about each other. Others say he was borderline abusive in his immediate dismissal of her. Others love him and think he's only disliked because he blows holes in the Olicity ship (my personal favourite because it undermines any and all intelligent and well constructed arguments for Ray's grossness). And yet more felt indifferent towards him, even liked him until this episode.

It's amazing.

It's funny, the scenes I've seen with Ray paint a picture of someone who wants justice to prevail. But the urge to punch him in the mouth sort of over powers that. But the enormous hypocrisy of now wanting to be judge, jury and executioner instead of others who do the same is outstanding.

How do Felicity and Ray not have more trust issues?

Edited March 26, 2015 by Password

[calliope1975]

- Ex-wife was behind the Identity Crisis plotline, in which she killed the wife of Justice League member, former Atom colleague, and all-around fun hero Elongated Man because Ray drove her insane.  At least, that was her excuse.

 

Now, I'm going to have to pull out those comics for another read. I just remember Michael Turner's covers and Batman doing a lot of detecting.

[Password]

Probably because he's got her wired. He knew so much shit about all of them and what they did that while I was creeped out, it was almost a relief that he wasn't just a creepy phone pinger and surveiller when it came to Felicity? What are my standards coming to?

Wait so when did Ray gather this information about everyone?

[apinknightmare]

Wait so when did Ray gather this information about everyone?

 

I don't know, but he clearly did his homework on her. How would he know she was training with Ted? Did he read her emails? Have her followed? Track her like he tracked Felicity?

[calliope1975]

I don't know, but he clearly did his homework on her. How would he know she was training with Ted? Did he read her emails? Have her followed? Track her like he tracked Felicity?

 

Typically, I would think this is smart behavior. Know what's going on. But why would he target these specific people to watch? Plus, his repeated creepy behavior makes me question his motives.

[TV Anonymous]

Question for comic readers. What is actually Atom's super power? I always thought Atom was the super hero who was able to adjust his body size, all the way to the very small. But in this show Atom is like Iron Man-lite.

[Password]

Typically, I would think this is smart behavior. Know what's going on.

This is exactly what was wrong with this episode. Ray's motivations were understandable, he said he could see the court wouldn't help him. But the writers went too far by making him smug and arrogant about it. No one will sympathise with a character who is right but acts almighty unless that was their intention. But I don't think it was because our sympathy was meant to stay with him. Instead you just want to smack him. Someone should ask MG what we were meant to feel towards Ray.

[gazebo]

I can't believe that I was more riveted by the Suicide Squad storyline than anything else in this episode.  It's oddly refreshing to see a flashback that doesn't involve Oliver Queen.  Deathstroke was pretty fucking scary to his poor wife and kid!  I'm glad they locked him up and kept him away from his family.  Deathstroke is a bad guy who finally did the right thing.  His sacrificing his life to save Diggle, Lyla, Crazy Cupid Lady and the hostages was very heroic.  However, I don't believe Deathstroke is really dead.  I don't know why, I just don't believe it at all.  I think he's going to turn up again some point in time.  But as a hero or villain?  Who knows.

I never had any problem with Ray Palmer before this episode.  I thought he is very cute and smart and very affable.  I am not an Olicity shipper so I had no problem wrapping my brain around Felicity dating Ray.  However, Ray just infuriated me on how stubborn he was and his absolute refusal to listen to Felicity.  Ray's got this shiny new suit now with the cool weapons and the whole flying thing and he thinks that he can be the Big Hero, or rather Judge, Jury and Executioner.  I was glad that Arrow put him down a peg and that Ray now has to rethink this whole superhero thing.  The fight scene between Arrow, Atom and Arsenal was surprisingly brief.  Boy!  Arrow sure figured out pretty quickly how to incapacitate Atom, didn't he?  Somehow, I wish Oliver coulda kicked Ray in the face instead of helping him to his feet.

Shouldn't Ray have approached Felicity and asked her to forgive him for being such a dick?  Why did Felicity have to go to him instead?  Well, I guess Felicity thinks that Ray has learned from his mistake of not trusting her and forgives him.  I don't know......I think she should've just stayed away from Ray for awhile and wait for him to come to her.  She was waaaaay too easy on this idiot!

Hey, Arrow!  Why did you leave behind Arsenal who was clearly wounded on the ground?  Each hero for himself I guess.

[apinknightmare]

Typically, I would think this is smart behavior. Know what's going on. But why would he target these specific people to watch? Plus, his repeated creepy behavior makes me question his motives.

 

Plus, Laurel was training with Ted before she even put on the buckles. So it's not like Ray got curious about the people Oliver associated with and decided to look into the woman who was the Black Canary and just happened to find her at Ted's gym, because she hasn't been training with Ted in months, before Ray would've even suspected her of anything. But why would he have been watching her before that? Makes no sense, but I'm willing to believe whatever he did was creepy, because I find he himself to be creepy.

Edited March 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

Ok, back with new theory about what Felicity meant when she thanked Oliver for proving her right. 

 

What if she was thanking him for proving to Ray that she was right about trusting that Oliver was not a killer?  The proving her right would be not Oliver proving he was wrong about something and but just that Oliver was her advocate to convince Ray to trust her thus she thanks Oliver for proving her right. 

 

I think that actually makes the most sense over her thinking Oliver suddenly did an about face about the chance of her and Ray's relationship once Ray gets some miles under his stupid little helmet.  Of course that makes me all kinds of ragey that it took Oliver to make Ray believe Felicity but that's why I'm kind of hating Ray all of a sudden. 

 

Some say he's so sweet, that that last scene with Felicity really makes you see how much they care about each other.

 

In all truth, the last scene with Brandon was a great scene for Ray- I would have bought his regret except that I felt it came from a place that didn't match with what we saw on screen. 

 

 Even when he was down on his knees and Oliver is warning him all over again that the copy cat would have killed him (so stay out of it) Ray is defiant, certain that Oliver is a killer.  Then Oliver turns the table and says Ray is the one that has to prove something to Felicity and helps him up.  Ray looks astonished but still wary and yet  by the time we got to his apology scene he was completely humbled and while I liked that very much, it didn't feel natural to how he'd react.  He could have got to that point but he was acting like he already knew Felicity was going to let him off the hook.  Plus she was acting like she knew he was sorry and humble and I just didn't buy it from where they'd left their relationship.  

 

I wonder how much the original scene was trimmed.  It feels like something important was missing.  

 

I think why I suddenly am on the Ray hate train when I wasn't before was he had one main job and that was not hurt Felicity and he failed miserably and was a self righteous prick while doing it.  I probably would be more forgiving except that he also hid from her that the suit was working and that is a huge thing since they were supposed to be a team working on it - and he provided no reason or excuse for shutting her out of it's success. 

 

I also am less forgiving because he didn't just not trust her - I could understand him not knowing if he can believe what she says but it quickly turned out that he was only willing to entertain one of two narratives - either she is lying to him or she is too weak minded to see the truth.  Earlier I thought this was a point in his favor, that he was trying to find a way to trust her but now it just makes me think how little he really values her opinion if it differs from his.   

 

I'll probably be able to forgive him and start fresh for the Spinoff but this guy pretends to be trusting an open and willing to listen but it's a lie and it's the two faced part of it that I'm not ready to forgive. 

[Password]

Plus, Laurel was training with Ted before she even put on the buckles. So it's not like Ray got curious about the people Oliver associated with and decided to look into the woman who was the Black Canary and just happened to find her at Ted's gym, because she hasn't been training with Ted in months, before Ray would've even suspected her of anything. But why would he have been watching her before that? Makes no sense, but I'm willing to believe whatever he did was creepy, because I find he himself to be creepy.

Oh my word I didn't even think of that. This guy.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Password

[BkWurm1]

I don't know, but he clearly did his homework on her. How would he know she was training with Ted? Did he read her emails? Have her followed? Track her like he tracked Felicity?

I feel confident that when Ted was being investigated that Laurel association became if not public notice (though very likely that) at least something the Mayor's office would have known and by this show's standards that means that Ray would also be in the loop.  Same with his knowledge about her and Oliver being an item in the past . Public knowledge.

 

That reminds me how irritated I was that he immediately jumps to both Felicity and Laurel covering up for Oliver.  Here's someone else standing in his way and instead of reasonably wondering if the Police Captain's daughter supports the Arrow too maybe he should rethink his firm stance on him being a killer, but no, once again he decides Oliver apparently used his charm to blind the stupid widdle impressionable women.  

[Delphi]

Question for comic readers. What is actually Atom's super power? I always thought Atom was the super hero who was able to adjust his body size, all the way to the very small. But in this show Atom is like Iron Man-lite.

Ability to shrink and grow his body and other objects to varying degrees (including the subatomic level) while manipulating his weight to his advantage

[DrSpaceman10]

I know that Ray said he trusted Felicity, but his actions in this episode proved to me that he doesn't trust her. Felicity asked Ray not to go to the cops and he went anyway. What if someone other than Laurel actually worked at the precinct, what would have happened then? 

[Password]

I think that's why the next episode is so important in terms of their relationship. There are no more lies between them (that we know of) so in theory they should be more open. Although Ray neglecting to tell his partner about the suit being ready was way before he found out about Oliver. Trust issuuuuuuues. Goody.