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Arandil

Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

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Neither Hook or Neal ever act like the many hundreds of years old men that they are. Since it's consistent between those two characters, while Rumpel does show the wisdom and strangeness of an immortal, I chalk it up to Neverland and its timelessness. No one ever moves on or grows. They remain in limbo barely acknowledging the passing of time only aware of a growing unhappiness and darkness building within.

 

What's interesting to me about Hook is that his relationship with Milah didn't mature him. You'd think that after several years in a committed relationship with a mature woman, he'd grow up a bit, but he's still a horrible drunken jerk when he runs into Rumpel all those years later. Milah apparently had no effect on his maturity level. However, since meeting Emma, he's grown by leaps and bounds. The writers drew a very clear picture of his newly found maturity in "Snow Drifts" (and to some extent in "The Jolly Roger") when he watches his past self with unhappiness and doesn't want Emma anywhere near that version of himself. It's especially interesting in light of the fact that he met Milah while doing the exact same thing his past self was doing in the tavern - drinking, wenching and playing dice. Milah was attracted to the the very same characteristics that he now despises in himself. It was also clear that Emma wasn't a bit bothered by Past!Hook, so Hook's feelings were all his own self-awareness and not a reaction to someone else's judgement. 

Edited by KAOS Agent
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When Hook met Milah, she left everything including her kid to go on an adventure.  Doesn't say much about her own maturity level.  Rumple wasn't the only coward in that relationship.

 

That said, Hook's rhetoric changed from her being his true love, to her being his first love.

 

I remember my first love.  I was in high school and there was nothing to write home about.

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Hook never called Milah his True Love--that was Rumple taunting them. As Hook tells Charming during their Time-Travel adventure, it took meeting the right woman, aka Emma, for him to believe in True Love.

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Neither Hook or Neal ever act like the many hundreds of years old men that they are. Since it's consistent between those two characters, while Rumpel does show the wisdom and strangeness of an immortal, I chalk it up to Neverland and its timelessness. No one ever moves on or grows. They remain in limbo barely acknowledging the passing of time only aware of a growing unhappiness and darkness building within. 

I agree with most of this except the passage of time thing.  Wendy said it felt like about 2 weeks she was in Neverland,( but here in our world it was only 1 night).  Why would she even mention that if she wasn't aware of, or barely aware, of the passage of time.

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Wendy said it felt like about 2 weeks she was in Neverland,( but here in our world it was only 1 night).  Why would she even mention that if she wasn't aware of, or barely aware, of the passage of time.

I got the impression from reading the book that Barrie was heavily influenced by folklore about the fairy realm in creating Neverland, and this experience with time fits that tradition pretty well. Sometimes fairy captives thought they'd spent weeks or even years with the fairies, only to return and find it was the next morning or even just a moment after they left, and sometimes they thought they were there for just one night and returned home to find that centuries had passed.

 

There must be some awareness of the passage of time, given that Bae tried to track it with tick marks on the wall of his cave, but he eventually gave up. Wendy was there for a relatively short period of time and was able to have a sense of that time. You could track weeks in your head. After years, it might all start blurring together. If your body isn't changing and you have no external markers for time like calendars, then it would be very easy for it all to run together and to lose all sense of time. For the kids, it might be like an endless summer vacation with no curfews and no rules. For an adult it might be less fun. It sounded like there was a constant struggle to stay alive, since Neverland was full of hazards and there was probably some fighting against Pan. Hook was trying to look after Bae. I guess if you're just trying to make it through each day, and each day brings its own survival challenges, you might not have a chance to get bored.

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Hook never called Milah his True Love--that was Rumple taunting them. As Hook tells Charming during their Time-Travel adventure, it took meeting the right woman, aka Emma, for him to believe in True Love.

I always thought it was more open to interpretation.  The whole you took my love, my happiness always made me think that he thought of her as a true love of sorts until he started falling for Emma.

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I'm not inclined to think of Killian and Milah as True Love, in the sense of a love so powerful and pure that it's literally magical. They may have truly been in love, but it seems like the bar should be set pretty high for the magical kind of True Love, and I wouldn't think that a relationship that began in adultery with a mother abandoning her child and lying about what happened to her would be eligible. I'm also not sure that a love that leads to the kind of vengeance that ends up harming innocent people who had nothing to do with the situation counts as True (a reason I also don't think Regina and Daniel's relationship would be True Love). To me, True Love shouldn't be capable of generating that kind of poison. And then there's the fact that True Love should make you be your best self, and while the relationship seemed to be happy at the time, he was at his worst during or because of it. He was kind of a jerk during the relationship and then became a villain because of it (if he wasn't already a ruthless villain as a pirate during it, but we don't know enough to know what he was like then, professionally).

 

A real indication of the contrast between the way he is with Emma (I don't know if it's yet mutual True Love, but I do think his love for her is showing signs of being True on his part) and the way he was with Milah is the fact that when he fell for a woman with a child, with Milah he didn't seem to have any qualms about letting her run away with him with no thought of her child. With Emma, he was prepared to take a step back and give the child's father a chance to rebuild the relationship with her because he thought it might be what was best for all of them. It was still up to her who (if anyone) she wanted, but he wasn't going to actively pursue her until it was clear she didn't want Neal, while with Milah he was actively competing with her husband, with little thought of what was best for her family. He wanted her, and that was it. I suppose that some of his decision with Emma had to do with the affection he had for Neal, but it does seem like he also recognized that what he'd done in the past was wrong and that he was trying not to repeat the same mistake with the next generation. That comes closer to the idea of self-sacrificial True Love, of being able to want what's best for the other person, regardless of personal desires, even if it means being separated from the person you love.

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And you also have to remember that when push came to shove, he let Pan take Baelfire to save his own ass. I think Hook did have the best of intentions with Bae and we've seen more of him with Henry just because of the nature of the linear story vs. the flashbacks. But I sense there seems to be something else there with Henry and Hook. Maybe it's because he realized he was wrong and wants to do right by Henry compared to Bae or he really has a connection to Henry because of who the kid's parents are. But it just seems different.

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Given the way this show has its characters act as if True Love is some rare and mystical thing (even though everyone and their brother seems to have True Love), I'm not sure that Hook ever thought of Milah as his true love. It's more likely that as he said to David in the Season 3 finale that he didn't actually believe true love existed until he met Emma. It was definitely implied that he'd never felt that way before. That doesn't mean that he didn't really love Milah and that her death wasn't incredibly painful for him, just that it wasn't a love that transcends time and space. I'd say in some ways Hook/Milah parallels Emma/Neal in that while both relationships were loving, neither couple brought out the best in each other. Neal led an impressionable Emma deeper into a life of crime and Milah was an active participant in and encouraging of Hook's continued piracy something which was actually damaging to the honorable core that resides within Hook. Obviously, the dynamics of these relationships were massively different, but there is a thread of commonality between Emma & Hook and their first loves. There's love and then there's True Love and Hook seems to have learned and felt the difference.

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Honestly guys, I really love reading this stuff.  I'm not sure the writers really delve into the characters as deeply as this.

 

Hook has so much potential as a character and for me, he has been one of the least disappointing in terms of development, so I hope they keep taking him further.  I think what I love about him the most is that he has self-awareness and just wants to be better and the person Emma deserves.

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Neither Hook or Neal ever act like the many hundreds of years old men that they are. Since it's consistent between those two characters, while Rumpel does show the wisdom and strangeness of an immortal, I chalk it up to Neverland and its timelessness. No one ever moves on or grows. They remain in limbo barely acknowledging the passing of time only aware of a growing unhappiness and darkness building within.

 

I think it also has to do with where they were in life when they stopped aging. Rumple was already a married, middle age man with a child. I think a lot of his maturity and wisdom came from those life experiences. Neal may have had a child but he didn't find out until the last year or two of his life. He made a lot of selfish choices as an adult without really growing.

 

Hook seems to have done more growing up then Neal and has become progressively more mature over time, from his position in the Navy to Pirate to Pirate wanting revenge to a man wanting love. The posts above did a good job going over the differences in Hook's love with Milah to his love for Emma whereas Neal didn't treat the relationships he had on screen with much respect.

 

 

I agree with most of this except the passage of time thing.  Wendy said it felt like about 2 weeks she was in Neverland,( but here in our world it was only 1 night).  Why would she even mention that if she wasn't aware of, or barely aware, of the passage of time.

 

I thought Wendy had spent approx. a century in Neverland, Is that not correct? She went after Baelfire and was then caught. I just assumed that when Bae got to England it was late 1800s or early 1900s because of costumes and sets. The timelines are all over the place that I never know what is going on and where lol.

 

 

I'm also not sure that a love that leads to the kind of vengeance that ends up harming innocent people who had nothing to do with the situation counts as True (a reason I also don't think Regina and Daniel's relationship would be True Love).

 

Good point. I think both Daniel and Milah were real love or first loves (don't know if Milah was Hooks's first love) of their respective partners but not necessarily a true love. Daniel and Milah were both tragically taken away and I think that changes how that love is viewed to the surviving couple member, especially to Regina. When Daniel was murdered Regina was so in love with him but had they been allowed to be together then the relationship could have fizzled out in 6 months like first, young loves often due. Regina wouldn't have blamed Snow for ruining her life has they broken up and she could have moved on to a healthy, happy relationship.

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I thought Wendy had spent approx. a century in Neverland, Is that not correct? She went after Baelfire and was then caught.

I think they were talking about the first time, when Wendy went away with the Shadow and came back, before Bae went so the Shadow wouldn't take the Darling kids again. She'd been gone the one night but thought it was longer.

 

That could mean that the passage of time was subjective.

 

Hook seems to have done more growing up then Neal and has become progressively more mature over time, from his position in the Navy to Pirate to Pirate wanting revenge to a man wanting love.

I would say that most of his maturing has been fairly recent. His response to his brother's death was pretty immature (though he was very likely still a teenager then, so it fits). He was still acting very young in the way he dealt with Milah and Rumple -- again, probably age-appropriate. But he was still mired in much the same place in the post-Neverland time -- drunk and fixated on revenge. He only started really maturing when he met Emma. I don't think it was necessarily that he was yet in love with her, but she may have provided a positive role model and a better star to steer by, since she was good without being a wimp and was able to stand up for what was right. I think it was while being around her that his conscience started kicking in and he started remembering the man he used to want to be.

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He only started really maturing when he met Emma. I don't think it was necessarily that he was yet in love with her, but she may have provided a positive role model and a better star to steer by, since she was good without being a wimp and was able to stand up for what was right. I think it was while being around her that his conscience started kicking in and he started remembering the man he used to want to be.

Also, for most of his (adult) life, he had been surrounded by people stroking his ego and doing as he said. Once he came to Storybrooke, and especially once he broke ties with Cora, he found himself in an environment where he wasn't in charge or in his element (where he probably doesn't even know what people are talking about half the time, if we're honest). Once he agreed to team up with the Nevengers, he was suddenly in a situation where cooperation and doing the right thing and working for the greater good were the things that earned him respect. I think Emma was a big part of that, but the environment probably contributed a lot, too. 

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 She'd been gone the one night but thought it was longer.

 

That could mean that the passage of time was subjective.

I like this idea--it can maybe be used to fansplain some of the timeline weirdness with Hook and Baelfire.

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As for Hook's formative years: In my head - canon, Hook's mother remarried after the boys' father left. He's an older man who's a retired naval officer, the boys are captivated by his stories, and decide to sign up when they're of age.. Alternatively, the boys' are taken in by said officer (if Mom's out of the picture). I think it's partly why Hook developed an interest in Bae (that and Milah), plus his interest in Henry. Henry was a way to Emma's heart, for sure, but Hook seems interested in Henry for his own sake. I think Hook will make a great step-dad to Henry, and (perhaps) a dad in the future.

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Once he agreed to team up with the Nevengers, he was suddenly in a situation where cooperation and doing the right thing and working for the greater good were the things that earned him respect. I think Emma was a big part of that, but the environment probably contributed a lot, too.

 

I'd say that what really turned Hook around is that he saw that you could fight the power and win without losing your honor in the process. Hook's initial slide into darkness was caused by a corrupt king. He had no way to take down a power that great, but fought back the only way he could think of and became a pirate. Milah's death also the result of a corrupt and evil power. He descended further into the darkness and became Death!Wish!Hook where even collateral damage wasn't that big of an issue to him because he was the worst human around. Once he thought he achieved his goal, he looked at himself and realized he hated what he saw and knew that others must look at him in the same way. Then he looked at Emma and saw she represented someone just like him. Someone without any power or privilege but who had somehow managed to not give in to the anger and hate and instead claw her way up in spite of all of the forces trying to drag her down. Then she went and offered him a chance to reclaim his honor and did it in a way that even allowed for him to be semi-proud of his pirate skills - i.e. they needed to be the hero, villain & pirate to succeed in Neverland. Hook's biggest asset is his self-awareness. Once he realized he was responsible for a good deal of his unhappiness and had a good example to follow, he was able to make healthier choices for himself going forward.

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Wait, Chris Carmack from "Nashville" is in "The Dust Storm" with Colin too?? I'm kinda guessing it's maybe a cameo, since I haven't seen any other mention of him being in the movie.

Edited by Souris

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Apparently Colin is starting a new rock band with Kat Meoz, who is helping with the music on Dust Storm. Hopefully he'll get to sing lead more than he did in his old band.

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Saw that but sounds so strange and confusing. How on earth could he do that with work? It sounds more like she's helping with writing the songs for the movie and either way it means Colin is singing so fine with me.

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Bands don't have to be things where you rehearse twice a week and play shows regularly. You can just meet up every few months for a weekend. Or you can collaborate over the internet. Some bands never record anything. Some only record and never play live shows. (And, of course, people start bands all the time that have a few amazing song-writing sessions together then just kind of peter out, despite everyone's best intentions). 

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I would imagine it's going to be an occasional, when-there's-time kind of thing. But if it produces more Colin singing videos, I'm for it! :)

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Yes, I remember Hugh Laurie from House had a band (still does, but this was while the show was on) and he was in basically every scene of his show for 8 years. So, it can be done, especially if they're willing to fly up to Canada to meet with him.

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Yes, I remember Hugh Laurie from House had a band (still does, but this was while the show was on) and he was in basically every scene of his show for 8 years. So, it can be done, especially if they're willing to fly up to Canada to meet with him.

Yeah Hugh was in a band filled with actors from tv shows. His costar Jesse Spencer played fiddle in it.

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I've seen quite a few actors from other shows have sidebands. The men from Desperate Housewives come to mind.

Zooey Deschanel has also a band and she is the star of her own show, so really, there's nothing to worry. Having a band just makes him even cooler.

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Colin just tweeted that he's wrapped up production on his movie:

 

 

Hey everyone. Just wrapped #duststorm Had the most amazing time. Best music I've heard in a long time.

 

He's probably already started re-growing the scruff even as we speak.

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He's probably already started re-growing the scruff even as we speak.

 

Let us send sacrificial offerings to Tubey, who must have extra time on his hands now to sway such things.

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Thanks Souris. 

 

I am bummed I didn't see that webpage before. I would have donated to get the Executive perks.  How cool would it be to list Executive Producer of Film  (see IMDB) in the miscellaneous section of your resume.  Cooler would be going to the premiere and meeting Colin. 

 

Oh well.  Probably better for my bank account.

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No one knew Colin would be in the film until after the donation period closed, so don't feel too bad! Maybe Colin was a late add to the film, but it's too bad they couldn't have announced his involvement sooner because they could have made a lot more money to make their film!

Here are a bunch of photos from the wrap party:

http://luckyjsmyboy.tumblr.com/post/89455088245/pics-from-last-night-great-music-and-lots-of-nice

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Yeah, I really wish we'd have known Colin was going to be in it before the donation period was over. It sounded like they knew who the actors were, but couldn't announce it at the time. Maybe the casting was contingent on them getting the last bit of funding. But I may have contributed more than I should've for a nice Colin-related perk.

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Going back to the discussion of how this Hook is probably closer to Book Hook than any other depiction, I was watching some of the bonus features on the DVDs last night, and in the Hook feature, Colin was talking about how he researched the character by reading just about every version of the story, including going back to the original and some of the other stuff Barrie said or wrote about Hook, and he started quoting some of the very same things that we've been talking about and that were included in that essay linked to above. So it sounds like even if the writers aren't deliberately going back to Barrie's vision of Hook in writing the character, Colin is very definitely keeping that in mind in his portrayal. Bonus points to him for having done that kind of research (and it sounds like he really likes books, in general, so more bonus points!).

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Here's a video of Colin playing guitar at the wrap party, with his co-star singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJWyd9pDMA

Wow, does she have a high pitched, screechy voice. Hopefully she sounds better in the film. Colin seems very happy. He makes me feel very lazy though, after everything he's accomplished in just two weeks!

Edited by pezgirl7

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It wasn't until about 2/3 of the way through that I realized she was singing "Summertime". It was an odd rendition vocally - very affected, and she kind of sounded to me like a natural Alto trying to sing Soprano. She also looked like she may have been a little drunk.

On topic, Colin looked good, and looked like he was having a good time. He seems to be really happy to be able to put his musical talents to use again.

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Wow, does she have a high pitched, screechy voice.

 

Erk. She sounds good in her middle register. She needs to stay there. And stop with all the runs. Runs are like spices. If you dump all the spices into everything you cook, it loses its meaning. You need to judiciously add the proper ones where they accent each dish. Every note doesn't need to be turned into 12 (especially when you are hitting some of those notes are discordant).

 

I see Keb' Mo' is associated with Chyld. He's awesomesauce.

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Apparently Keb Mo is one Colin's guitar heroes, so he was super psyched to work with him. Colin's costar, Kristen, actually has a very lovely voice when she's in her range. I'm hoping the songs in the film are slow, acoustic ones.

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It's been a smorgasbord of Colin in Nashville the last couple weeks! Sure helps with the hiatus. I particularly liked the one out on the town one that looked like he duded up with some eyeliner. lol

Wish they had posted a video with Colin singing. That would be awesome.

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What is the point of him anymore, besides eye candy? Literally. He's a useless idiot who adds nothing to the show. It's so obvious he's still only around to please the fangirls and Hook/Emma shippers. I appreciated his character more when he was locking Emma/Snow up and leaving them to die, taking Aurora's heart, shooting Belle, torturing Regina and helping Cora, because he was more recognizable as Captain Hook the asshole. Now he's just a sad puppy who makes rapey comments and emotionally blackmails Emma into making out with him.

 

Colin is great, but he's terribly wasted in this role...though I feel that way about most of the cast. At least MRJ was smart/lucky enough to escape.

Edited by stacey

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Colin is featured in the Men of ABC promo here. Unfortunately, it's not available outside the US. Personally, I cannot understand what the reasoning is in geo-blocking stuff like that. Do they think Europeans will go crazy over the overwhelming hotness of ABC's men and storm the US? 'cause I gotta point out, like 60% of them are European anyway.

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Yeah, I've never understood locking out certain countries for promo material.  Oh my gosh, a larger group of people might get excited about your content, how horrible!  Maybe there are good reasons, but mostly it always feels to me like another example of the TV (and movie) industry dragging their feet on coming into the modern age and not understanding how to use the internet and globalization to benefit themselves. 

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Serena and CatMack:

the video is available to us European!! Not the Youtube version, but I could see it (via links posted on Tumblr, like this on SpoilerTV) or on Facebook (like this).

Edited by stacey
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Please note that insulting your fellow posters is not acceptable here. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and you cannot be a dick about the opinion of  others. Thank you.

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I suspect it is just geo-blocked because that it the default setting on their account. While I know that some people outside the US do want to watch it... it's an ad for a US network. And not a very exciting one. I can understand why it didn't really occur to whichever intern puts these online. Most of the clips they put online do need to be geo-blocked because they have sold the rights to those shows outside the US. Outdated, maybe, but still the way things work.

 

Anyway, for those who can't see it: it just shows various promo photos of male leads from ABC shows. There is a photo of Colin on there for two seconds, and it says "ONCE" across and then next to his face. Here is a screen shot for you.

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Thanks, everyone. I do have my ways to access geo-blocked content ;) but still, it's the principle of the thing!

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