S01.E15: Out Of Time

[bettername2come]

I just had an awesome thought: when the time line resets and Cisco is alive again he discovers he now seems to have vibrational powers (that happened when Wells "killed" him with his speed). In other words, by trying to kill Cisco, Wells just accidentally made him Vibe!! Or maybe I just really wanna see Cisco's absolute joy!!

I think that would be more plausible if Barry had gone back through time at the moment Cisco was dying, because part of Vibe's powers have to do with traveling between dimensions. So if a new alternate timeline had been created right as Reverse Flash killed him instead of after, I'd think that would be a real possibility. I wish it did, though; I'm dying to see Cisco get his powers.

 

Comic book spoiler: 

You know this never would have happened if he were Vibe. Vibe can disrupt the Speed Force.

[Shanna]

I loved everything Cisco about this episode. Cisco with Wells, Cisco with Caitlyn, Cisco with Joe; it's was a Cisco-palooza. Cisco is truly Flash's Felicity.

Cisco was amazing this episode. That scene with wells was the best acting he's ever done. I was completely in 'Cisco is dead I'm quitting the show' mode until I realized time travel. Now on not sure. I think the last few episodes have been really unfocused overall. Like this episode, the weather guy was a complete distraction from the actual episode.

I think what's great about having a great actress like Candice Patton is that she can convey different kinds of emotions and evoke different responses that other actresses, or actors, couldn't. I think different people will interpret the bowling scene differently because of our own biases toward it. For example, I also saw Iris as being slightly manipulative and territorial toward Barry and Linda, just like I've seen it for a couple of their episodes. I don't think it's entirely deliberate, but I've seen it get more and more obvious that Iris is jealous and does not want Linda anywhere near Barry, except that she has no reason to chase her away. Linda's a nice person, so it automatically makes it harder for Iris to hate her. I do think she was bragging to Linda by touching Barry and stating these things to prove how long they've been friends. Again, I don't think it's entirely deliberate, but I also think it might be a little more conscious than she realizes..

If they had just left it with her being a little too much in his business at the bowling alley I might have agreed it was in her subconscious, but she was actively trying to convince Barry to dump Linda while having seemingly not intention of giving up her relationship with Eddie. That is territorial in the extreme and not ok, IMO.

[kieyra]

Casual viewer. Barry/Iris is deeply creepy due to the sibling vibe and I have no clue why they went that route, nor why they also continue to refer to the sibling vibe textually. ("Have you seen Dad?")

(Please don't "transparent" me without checking my posting history in Sleepy Hollow first, thanks. This character is just poorly written and the OTP is a terrible setup.)

[marketdoctor]

 

Yeah, hasn't Barry already run on water?

 

Sure, but that was over an episode ago, so maybe he doesn't remember.  As to why he didn't knock out Mardon, it might have been a combination of he didn't have the weather-stopper device (because, good thing they only built the one) and the tidal wave had already started.

 

To be fair to the show, I did not see this twist coming.  There's a novel with a similar theme, spoilered just in case:

 

Steven King's 11/22/1963 also dealt with the idea that a timeline is resistant to change, and the more one tries to change, the more the multiverse makes it difficult. That time travel can have unintended negative consequences is a time travel trope, but this story seemed a lot like 11/22/1963 to me.

 

Did Barry Allen actually say "Oh, boy"?  If so, that's a nice Quantum Leap tribute moment.  It's a fine line between tribute and breaking the fourth wall, but they try really well.

 

Also, I'm with the others.  This was some of the best acting I'd seen--Eddie starting to see the Dark Side, or at least, look for cookies; Cisco and Dr. Wells; even Joe West pointing out how contained the relationships are--I was smiling too, because it was like they weren't quite breaking the fourth wall, but taking a moment to tap on the glass and wave.

[tennisgurl]

I am always really impressed by the actors on the show. I knew that Tom Cavanagh and Jesse Martin would be great, but I have been pretty consistently impressed by the rest of the younger cast as well. Carlos Vales, in particular, was just incredible in this episode, especially coming from a guy who was set up early n to be the comic relief character. To me, there is really no weak link in the main cast. Even the supporting actors/character do a great job. Hell, I was impressed by the guy playing the captains fiance, and he was only in the one scene!

Edited March 19, 2015 by tennisgurl

[AudienceofOne]

I'm glad I never got invested in this show because that was 7000 kinds of stupid.

 

And of course we only got some real forward motion in the plot because it's all going to be undone (Save Cisco or let Iris know you're the Flash! OMG, which will he choose?) And we'll basically be back to the show's status quo when they hit the reset button and none of this ever happened.

 

But the idea that running really really fast can cause you to travel in time?? 7000. Kinds. Of. Stupid.

 

Casual viewer. Barry/Iris is deeply creepy due to the sibling vibe and I have no clue why they went that route, nor why they also continue to refer to the sibling vibe textually. ("Have you seen Dad?")

(Please don't "transparent" me without checking my posting history in Sleepy Hollow first, thanks. This character is just poorly written and the OTP is a terrible setup.)

 

 

Yep. This is not Laurel-hate where the frothing hatred at her very existence makes being on the forums a less-than-enjoyable experience. I like the actress quite a lot but the character is just terrible. The creepy sibling vibe, the appalling paternalism of the male characters to her, the vaguely pleasant personality that makes her so malleable to other people's moods (actually, quite accurately, the kind of personality women who've been raised by extremely sexist fathers have). She wants everybody to be happy and thinks she must be permanently pleasant and agreeable to do so because Daddy "I must control your every move" insisted on it. She could be an interesting character if they didn't put her in this frankly icky romance subplot with her brother. Watching her rebel against her overprotective father and brother to assert her own identity could have been great. But she's just the "love interest" and plot fodder accordingly.

Edited March 19, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[lilithred]

The things I hated:

 

- The constant references to Iris and Barry's sibling nature. This show has literally NEVER done that before, and all of a sudden, in the same episode that they kiss, Joe calls Barry his adopted son, someone calls Barry Iris's brother, and Iris looks at Barry and asks where "dad" is? What? Whyyy? That is so weird. It's just SO weird. I hated it.

 

- The cattiness between Linda and Iris. How gross. Stop it, show. Don't go there.

 

- Barry and his juggling act with Iris and Linda. I understand that he's been in love with Iris his whole life. I understand that he's human and some feelings may linger. But dude, you're actively leading another woman on when you date her, and then turn around and ask about "dating advice" regarding Iris. He flat out LIED to her about being over Iris. It's so shitty. And honestly, Linda hasn't been with Barry long enough for me to believe she'd put up with him constantly sidelining her in favor of Iris.

 

- Eddie "suddenly" feeling the third wheel around Barry and Iris when that's never happened before. If anything, the whole love confession should have made things awkward between them, but instead, they were all over each other during the double date. How is Eddie JUST NOW noticing that they're too touchy feely? It should have been that can't talk/joke with each other like they used to, and Eddie noticing and wondering why something has changed. Instead, he's upset about a dynamic that's always been there. This whole "love square" is turning out to be really poorly written, IMO.

 

I was gonna mention some issues I had with Iris's actions, but the Iris hate in this thread is so gross, I can't contribute to it, lmao. Why is the woman always the bad guy? What a mess.

 

Things I liked:

 

Everything else. Cute kiss between Westallen. The RF reveal. Cisco and Wells scene. Great stuff. It's just lame af that it's all going to be erased and everyone will go back to being clueless idiots again.

[Agent Dark]

But the idea that running really really fast can cause you to travel in time?? 7000. Kinds. Of. Stupid.

Or, you know, an entire underpinning concept of the Theory of Relativity.  But yeah, Science is pretty stupid.  Humans evolving from Apes?  Utter nonsense. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Agent Dark

[AudienceofOne]

So Barry runs faster than the speed of light, does he, Mr Supercilious? Thereby overthrowing the physics you're talking about? How is that not 7000 kinds of stupid? Tomorrow I'm going to form an interdimensional rift in my kitchen with a toaster and a wine glass. Hey, it's possible because quantum.

[FurryFury]

Tomorrow I'm going to form an interdimensional rift in my kitchen with a toaster and a wine glass. Hey, it's possible because quantum.

 

Hey, it Steins:gate, they've created a time machine using a microwave oven and a mobile phone, so why the hell not? I don't really expect any sort of scientific plausibility in a comic book show, or, hell, a TV show in general. The concept of running so fast you can go back in time does stretch my suspension of disbelief somewhat, but I can live with it. I hated this episode, but for other reasons, like idiotically handled romantic stuff or Wells' mustache-twirling.

[FurryFury]

Well, I kinda think Malcolm went crazy after his wife's death, but yeah, his crazy at least made sense - he felt human. Wells is just a straight-up sociopath, which is just boring. I had a lot of hopes for him, too - I wanted him to be more of a ruthless anti-hero than straight-up villain, because this is just more fun. Plus, it would give Tom Cavanaugh a reason to stick around after his defeat. But the show seems determined to take the most heavy-handed, predictable route possible, both when it comes to characters and their relationships. 

 

Like, I fear they're going to turn awesome Eddie into this evil, twisted jerk who is nothing like the great guy he used to be. That will be a sad day.

 

He'll probably turn into a villain after Iris inevitably dumps him for Barry, or even because he's jealous. These writers actually avoided this twist on Arrow with Tommy, but I doubt they'll resist the temptation this time.

[Agent Dark]

The Theory of Relativity permits what are effectively forms of time travel under conditions involving relativistic or faster-than-light speeds. Obviously the sticking point in the real world is achieving those kinds of speeds, but this is a science fiction show where that is possible (ie the whole Speed Force thing that gives Barry his powers). If you can accept that The Flash can run fast, then you can accept that he can maybe time travel because actual real world science says that things that move very very fast maybe actually can time travel.

[driedfruit]

I was hoping Wells was not a sociopath, because then there'd be hope that hanging with the ragtag bunch would humanize him. But it seems if he can put his fist through a kid he considered a son, well, there's really no hope for that, and it's too bad. I wanted him to stick around as well.

 

 

A ragtag bunch humanizing him would've been the most boring, cheesy option. No thanks.

 

I didn't realize how much I loved this show until I heard Tom deliver "You've been dead for centuries." Comic storylines are only as good as their villains and Tom playing Eobard is the best thing that ever happened to this show. 

[Oscirus]

though I did like that both Linda and Eddie called Iris on it immediately

 

By immediately, you mean the day after? They both had quite a few opportunities to call her on it before they did and both waited until Iris sought them out to do so. Hell, why did Linda wait so long to talk to Barry about this? And while we're at it, why did Linda even agree to a double date with somebody that she considered a hater, anyway? I'm not going to put the situation on them, but the impact  could've been lessened/avoided if they weren't being so passive aggressive about.

 

I feel Barry should've told Joe to sit his ass down.  Flash is the one best equipped to take on the Weather Wizard, what the hell made Joe think that having Barry be Iris's personal protector instead of fighting the meta-human was a good idea?

 

The Cisco Wells scene was just ok for me. It basically was a data dump because there was no reason for Wells to tell Cisco all that. Plus for someone who knew that he was going to die, aside from the tears, Cisco seemed fairly calm/accepting of it.

 

While we're at it, why didn't Caitlin call Barry as soon as she found out that something was wrong with Wells? She had to know where Wells was going as soon as she saw the empty wheelchair.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Oscirus

[Shanna]

Nothing about the weather wizard or peoples reactions to it made sense or flowed to me. I wish they had just left it out although I think it was there mainly to make us afraid for joe (which I wasn't), cause this stupid iris confession/kiss that went away, and set him up to time travel. But the whole thing was a mess because it lacked focus and ploting. So they just show up to the docks at the end. Was there any kind of plan at all??

[Oscirus]

So they just show up to the docks at the end. Was there any kind of plan at all??

 

To show the killer that she didn't follow his instructions and told someone thereby angering the dangerous meta-human enough to kill her dad? As far as she knows, Barry had no special powers so it made no sense to bring him.

[Shanna]

To show the killer that she didn't follow his instructions and told someone thereby angering the dangerous meta-human enough to kill her dad? As far as she knows, Barry had no special powers so it made no sense to bring him.

Seriously. He didn't even hide!!!!

[Sakura12]

And while we're at it, why did Linda even agree to a double date with somebody that she considered a hater, anyway? I'm not going to put the situation on them, but the impact  could've been lessened/avoided if they weren't being so passive aggressive about.

 

She didn't agree to it really. Barry and Linda were on a date at the bowling alley and ran into Iris and Eddie who were also there on a date. Iris invited them and Linda didn't really have a choice. If she said no, Barry would've probably convinced to her to stay because him and Iris wanted to hang out because of feelings. 

 

That was the part that made Barry and Iris look bad. Iris may not have been completely aware of what she was doing but she was still marking her territory with Barry in front of Eddie and Linda. They had every right to be pissed about the way they were both acting. The kiss was more wrong because her father was off dying somewhere and instead of finding a way to save him, she decides to tell Barry how she feels. Wrong time for that. I really hate when shows do the oh no we are going to die soon but we have time to have a 10 minute conversation about feelings and make out before anything really bad happens. 

 

I also hated it because of all the reveals you knew it was going to all be taken back. Then the most important thing Barry should know (which is not that Iris loves him) it's that Wells is the bad guy. Barry still will stupidly trust him because he couldn't have a 1 minute convo with Caitlin to get important info. But had all the time in the world for his one with Iris. 

 

These writers are terrible at writing romance. I have not shipped or even wanted to ship any character on both shows. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sakura12

[Oscirus]

As was stated, Linda didn't "agree" to a double date. She went along to get along. She was totally pressured into it. It seems she knew exactly what would happen. You could see it on her face right before she begrudgingly accepted

 

She had a pretty good reason not to accept Iris's invitation and if she'd have told Barry that then I doubt that he'd force the double date.

 

Linda is under no obligation to Iris. It's Iris who needed to go to Linda and apologize for being all over her date, which she finally did.

 

Wiping something off of someone's mouth is not being all over them. And if she was so offended, she should have told Iris to back off  or said something about it at the bowling alley after the two guys left. What would've happened if Iris didn't apologize? Would she have let this "bothersome" behavior continue next time she was "forced" into a double date?

 

The kiss was more wrong because her father was off dying somewhere and instead of finding a way to save him, she decides to tell Barry how she feels.

 

 

Barry's trying to send her off and she realizes at that moment she doesn't want to lose Barry. I'll agree that it wasn't an ideal time, but it was more about them getting lost in the moment.

[JTMacc99]

If you can accept that The Flash can run fast, then you can accept that he can maybe time travel because actual real world science says that things that move very very fast maybe actually can time travel.

I, for one, accept all time travel explanations presented to me in all forms of media I choose to consume.

 

- Doc Brown, 1.21 gigiwatts, Delorean?  Yep. Sounds reasonable.

- Multiple reasons including an all powerful being just fucking with Picard on Star Trek TNG?  Yep. I buy all of them.

- Reconstructed wood and metal time machine on Phineas and Ferb?  Heck yeah. Those boys are very creative. They even built a portal to Mars, so time travel seems reasonable when all they had to do was put somebody else's work back together.

- Phone booth piloted by George Carlin?  Sure, why not? (Strange things were afoot at the Circle K, so why not time travel?)

Edited March 19, 2015 by JTMacc99

[Xander]

Linda wasn't railroaded into the date. Eddie even gave her an out by mentioning that they didn't want to interrupt their date. If she was feeling uncomfortable, she should have said so. I would have said so and just added that we hadn't spent some quality time and we should hang out later. She's proven herself to be outspoken when needed and she could have done so this time around. 

[Sakura12]

If Linda confronted them they would've denied it anyway. Neither Barry or Iris thought they were doing anything wrong so it wouldn't have mattered when Eddie and Linda said something. Plus I could even buy that Eddie and Linda were tying to civil knowing that Barry and Iris are friends and not wanting to start something in public, while also stewing about it. It's a human reaction and don't fault either of them for their reactions. Barry and Iris were the ones in the wrong. 

 

What's worrisome to me is Barry and Iris are the couple we're supposed to be rooting for and it's hard to root for a couple when they act like that in front of people they are supposed to care about or are trying to date. However they gave themselves a (eyeroll) do over, I hope they can make them kiss in a better way, like after Iris breaks up with Eddie and Barry breaks up with Linda. Preferably Barry breaking up Linda should happen in the next episode since he knows how that Iris feels the same way. 

 

Linda wasn't railroaded into the date. Eddie even gave her an out by mentioning that they didn't want to interrupt their date.

 

When you are on the outside it's easier to say you could just say no. When you are actually in that situation it's not that simple. Barry and Iris wanted to hang out because they have feelings for each other, they would've made that happen. They were in the same place, Linda could've said no but then she would've looked like the bad guy and Barry would've probably been mopey about it until they went and joined them. That whole date was meant for Barry and Iris's feelings. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sakura12

[Xander]

 

Even if Iris had done it then turned around to see Eddies face and kind of had an "OH CRAP!" moment, it would have been better. Kind of like she realizes her feelings are now actions, and maybe she needs to deal with them.

This happened at the police station when Eddie was giving the cops instructions and Barry cupped Iris's face to console her about her father's disappearance. Eddie gave them a look and they both looked away guiltily. Deep inside, they know their actions aren't entirely platonic. 

 

 

When you are on the outside it's easier to say you could just say no. When you are actually in that situation it's not that simple. Barry and Iris wanted to hang out because they have feelings for each other, they would've made that happen.

 

We can just agree to disagree. As far as we know, the meeting was coincidental. Barry and Iris weren't forcing these two to join them on a date because as we saw in this episode and in previous ones too -  even if it's just as Jitters - they hang out alone whenever they want. And Barry wouldn't have been mopey. From his reaction, he would have been fine either way. 

 

 

I'm not happy that Barry got a "get out of jail free" card here. He needed to do some groveling as well and/or break up with Linda, because it's clear he's seen her as second-choice at best.

 

Linda has a lot of power in this situation, you know? There's no reason she needs to stick around herself. She should tell Barry off and move on. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Xander

[Ottis]

This episode was virtually meaningless. It was a cheap thrill for the fans, I suppose. Everything that we saw happened, didn't. It reminded me of the Star Trek: TNG ep that started with the Enterprise being destroyed and we learn that time keeps getting reset, so nothing actually happens in the end. The one difference may be that Barry seemed to realize the difference when everything started over, though that may be a short-term effect. We don't know, yet. And of course, Barry didn't see everything we saw. Now it will be interesting to see what the show keeps as "real" and what ends up being just one possible future.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Ottis

[JTMacc99]

This episode was virtually meaningless. It was a cheap thrill for the fans, I suppose.

I don't think it is meaningless to tell us exactly who Wells is and that he is capable of killing Cisco and I'm sure Caitlin without so much as a second thought. The show needed to make that perfectly clear at some point. (Obviously we suspected some or all of it, but having seen it with our own eyes adds an entirely different dimension to the Wells character now.) Of all the ways to tell us, this was one of the more interesting ways to do so. 

 

Also not meaningless, if you care about such things, was the fact that Iris has it in her to be with Barry.  Regardless of how they reset the events of this episode, all of the future story on that topic can be colored by what we know could happen.

 

So I suppose it is meaningless if you believe that each episode must move forward in a straight line and each event must lead to the next event. But I don't think it was meaningless at all if you consider the things we learned and how they will apply to the storytelling moving forward.

Edited March 19, 2015 by JTMacc99

[Shanna]

There was nothing wrong with them turning bowling into a double date, it was Barry and Iris's actions on that date that made it awkward. And then everything that came after proved that Eddie and Linda were in the right here, from iris trying to get Barry to dump Linda because she wants him to be free for her to the kiss.

And I forgot about that Barry/iris touching at the police station because that was out of line too. Ugh. Hard to root for or care about a relationship that starts this way. Don't know what the writers were thinking!

If this show is going to have time travel, they are going to need to be careful in how they use it because it does feel pointless to me to be manipulated emotionally by things that are so easily erased. I haven't really been enjoying the show since it came back from Christmas and I am going to have to think about whether I should invest time in it now. But the wells and Cisco scene was so damn good.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Shanna

[BkWurm1]

When you are on the outside it's easier to say you could just say no. When you are actually in that situation it's not that simple. Barry and Iris wanted to hang out because they have feelings for each other, they would've made that happen.

 

I think it would take some very fast thinking to be able to come up with a reason to justify saying no in that put on the spot, I don't want to appear catty, they are just friends, it's only bowling so why not, but I don't want to, crap they are looking at me, SURE! moment.  If it's something you've been through before perhaps it's a different situation but I know I've repeated decisions that I promised myself I wouldn't by talking myself out of knowing its going to be a disaster in those same kind of OMG everyone is waiting for me to say yes. 

 

Once you'd have time to mull it over - like Linda probably was doing all through the date,  of course all the answers come easy.  "Oh, it sounds fun but maybe another time."  "No, no, this is your date night too, we'll just talk to you later."  It's easy when the moment is over but in that moment there is a lot of pressure to say yes to the happy and excited people including the guy you want to impress. 

 

Perhaps people who are upset with Barry and Iris's behavior will find solace to see them screw things up between each other now that Barry knows how Iris feels because I am sure that without following the same path Iris followed (same series of events including the kidnapping of her father) she's not going to be in the same place emotionally and you just know when Barry starts telling her what she's feeling when she's only seesawing back and forth it will cause her to retreat and double down on her clear feelings she has for Eddie.   

 

Or at least that's what I'm hoping for cause I'd like to see any start of their romance happen without the baggage of being unfaithful or unkind.  Like I've said before, I'm not sold on their romance so more time can't be a bad thing. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by BkWurm1

[ribboninthesky1]

The Cisco Wells scene was just ok for me. It basically was a data dump because there was no reason for Wells to tell Cisco all that. Plus for someone who knew that he was going to die, aside from the tears, Cisco seemed fairly calm/accepting of it.

 

While we're at it, why didn't Caitlin call Barry as soon as she found out that something was wrong with Wells? She had to know where Wells was going as soon as she saw the empty wheelchair.

 

Yeah, I guess we're meant to believe that Cisco was so stunned that any self-preservation or will-to-live instincts weren't there.  I could have respected an ATTEMPT to escape, even if it was futile.  No way in hell would I just stand there while someone's hand starts to vibrate after they have confessed all of their nefarious deeds and intentions.  That took me right out of the scene. 

 

Exposition dumpy as it was, I thought it was well-acted on Tom Cavanaugh's part.  Carlos Valdes, not so much.  He wasn't awful, but I didn't feel the emotional weight of the revelation from his performance.  He was basically there as a sounding board for Tom.  Danielle Panabaker gets a ton of flack for her performance, but beyond the wise-cracking, Valdes isn't much better.  

 

As for Iris and Barry, I agree with the sentiment that they both came off poorly in this episode.  I've always preferred Iris with Eddie, but knew it was downhill from the moment Joe dragged him into his "Secrets and Lies to protect and control Iris" bullshit scheme back in episode 9 (I think). I don't care about Linda because she continued seeing Barry with eyes wide open plus the real issue of Barry's clandestine activities.  But Eddie deserves better from Iris.  I'm just waiting on the inevitable vilification of his character, because this show wouldn't recognize nuance if it came ala Weather Wizard's tsunami.         

 

But beyond all that, I...just didn't see fireworks with that kiss.  Not sure if it was the way it was shot/directed, or Patton was uncomfortable, but it appeared that she wasn't even kissing Gustin.  He seemed more into it than she did, and it's the first time I questioned Patton's acting choices.  That was one of the more awkward TV kisses I've seen recently. I've never cared one way or the other before, but it helped me understand the perspective of those who don't see the Patton/Gustin chemistry. 

[Xander]

Yeah, those two were proven right as the point was that Barry and Iris have romantic feelings for each other. And we didn't get breakups because the writers want to keep the love triangles going on after the time travel reset. They weren't on their best behavior but we'll see what changes next week. 

 

Anyway, it's probably going BkWurm1's way. Barry and Linda will end soon, Barry will probably get worse now that he knows that his feelings are reciprocated and Iris will stick with Eddie for reasons unknown. 

 

For those who didn't like it, maybe Round 2 will work out better for you.

 

As for chemistry, I see absolutely none with Iris/Eddie. However, this episode made me sympathize with Eddie. 

 

With Iris/Barry, I could understand why some people didn't see in the past but I saw tons in this episode. 

[Mz Anthrope]

Re:  Iris and the bowling alley.  Or anywhere for that matter.  When a man or woman knows that someone is interested in them, they back OFF from touch, being too close, etc - or should - if they respect the other person and don't reciprocate the feelings.  Anywhere else what she's doing would be considered leading him on.  What she's been doing is having her cake and eating it too.  I don't have hate for her at all.  I like her.  But, she's doing nothing for him, and all her actions are purely for herself at this point.

 

I can see why Barry would date if Iris rejected him (her choice to live with Eddie) as he has every right to try for happiness - especially since Linda (and I really like her) was into him, and they shared some things in common.  Break out and enjoy someone else.  Who knows - could lead to something much better than expected.  Back to my original point - Iris should have backed completely off and respected him.

 

Dr Wells:  I'd always had some internal snark about him.  When my husband said 'he's a lot like Jeff Goldblum' I totally got why I don't like him. 

 

Cisco was awesome and I totally loved all his scenes.

[arc]

Yeah, I guess we're meant to believe that Cisco was so stunned that any self-preservation or will-to-live instincts weren't there.  I could have respected an ATTEMPT to escape, even if it was futile.  No way in hell would I just stand there while someone's hand starts to vibrate after they have confessed all of their nefarious deeds and intentions.  That took me right out of the scene.

Nah, no one can run from someone as fast as (or faster than!) the Flash; it'd be absolutely futile.

 

UNLESS YOU'RE THE WEATHER WIZARD IN THIS VERY EPISODE, of course.

[ribboninthesky1]

Where was Cisco gonna go? In a lab with a man who's faster than the fastest man on earth there at the exit? 

 

As mentioned already, I am fully aware it was futile.  But in my experience, self-preservation is instinct more than logic.  At least TRY to make Wells work for it. It's not like Wells surprised him.  He stood there with the vibrating hand for SEVERAL seconds, still pontificating and shit. 

[Shanna]

As mentioned already, I am fully aware it was futile. But in my experience, self-preservation is instinct more than logic. At least TRY to make Wells work for it. It's not like Wells surprised him. He stood there with the vibrating hand for SEVERAL seconds, still pontificating and shit.

I think it's kind of like how you don't want to run from preditors. He thought if he stayed still maybe he could argue his way out of it. If he had run, that would have made wells attack him immediately. He also could have been stalling I hopes that someone would come. I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon. Edited March 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Fabricationary]

I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon.

 

Now where's that handy absolute zero gun when you need it?

[DayOwl]

Let me just state for the record that while I thought the Cisco/Wells scene was brilliant and acted to perfection, I hate that Wells is a straight-up villain. I brought this up for another show, but I wish they'd made him more like Malcolm Merlyn. That's a nice, nuanced villain who is also related to one of the main characters. I always prefer nuanced characters.

 

I don't know who Malcolm Merlyn is, but I completely agree that I'm very disappointed they're making Wells so evil. He has been my favorite character from day 1. I felt sure they were going for a nuanced villain up until now. I'm perfectly okay with morally grey characters. I could justify his prior behavior--killing other not so nice characters or lying to the team, etc. I'm not familiar with the Reverse Flash from the comics, so I had no preconceived notions of what his true motivations might be toward Barry--or even whether it was actually him who killed Nora Allen.

 

But this episode had him crossing lines I didn't believe he would cross, and I'm not okay with it. It leaves me feeling very conflicted about Wells and the show. Also, I love the Star Labs team dynamic, and it's now inevitable that it will eventually go away. I'm not sure the show will be as enjoyable for me at that point. This episode was fantastic and well done in every way, absolutely, but from a character standpoint, it left me really depressed.

[bettername2come]

I think it's kind of like how you don't want to run from preditors. He thought if he stayed still maybe he could argue his way out of it. If he had run, that would have made wells attack him immediately. He also could have been stalling I hopes that someone would come. I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon.

This. Cisco stays totally still as Wells circles him like a freaking shark. Keeping the villain monologuing was probably the best strategy available to him at the moment. Cisco fights or runs when he has a chance - like against Deathstroke on Arrow. Standing still and offering to help wasn't a bad idea; it was the best he could come up with at the time, and when that plan failed, I can't really blame him for just giving up.

[Shanna]

Now where's that handy absolute zero gun when you need it?

Ha. Right??

[CabotCove]

First off, my dislikes...Iris is absolutely detestable and I hated the way things played out with Barry.  It makes them both look bad but Iris even worse since she's the one who's supposed to be in a committed long-term relationship.  I'm not letting Barry off the hook either but at least his relationship with Linda is still relatively new.

 

Barry knows iris is in a serious relationship, with a man that actually befriended and respects him. I dont see why Iris is anymore "detestable" than Barry here. He has been one to put the first moves, confessing to Iris for e.g when she was in a relationship and about to move with Eddie. And thats without adding what he is doing to Linda, doesnt matter how long they have been dating, she told him honestly and openly she didn't want any time wasters. And he does exactly that, lies and cheats on her as the cherry on top.  He didnt show the same courtesy and respect back to her that she did for him. Barry knows all too well what his feelings are, Iris was at least unconscious of them, she is just starting to wake up to them.

 

* Eddie and Linda not taking being treated poorly in a quiet manner.

 

Can they just get together please, they deserve so much better treatment.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Conell

[ribboninthesky1]

I think it's kind of like how you don't want to run from preditors. He thought if he stayed still maybe he could argue his way out of it. If he had run, that would have made wells attack him immediately. He also could have been stalling I hopes that someone would come. I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon.

 

He didn't tell anyone else what he planned to do besides Caitlyn, so who else would just show up?  I mean, there was no guarantee that Caitlyn could keep Wells distracted for long, if at all, and Cisco didn't plan what to do if he was caught? He was already suspicious of Wells because of Joe (I don't remember what happened with that blood sample), so he was specifically looking for evidence that Wells tampered with equipment.  And yet, if he thought Wells was potentially capable of murder, he wouldn't have taken some measures to protect himself if he showed up? Even if Wells wasn't Reverse Flash, what would prevent Reverse Flash from showing up? Heck, thinking on it further, why not do what he did at night, after Wells left the lab?   

 

It's funny, as I have mentioned in an earlier thread, I can look past the pseudoscience.  It's the lack of common sense from these characters that baffles me, and this wasn't the only example of it in this episode.  Joe got hit with the stupid stick as well as Barry and Eddie.  Even Caitlyn got tapped with it.  It was passed around like a baton in a relay race.  I suppose Cisco stood out to me because he seemed the most resigned, and the stupid made even less sense than the rest.  

Edited March 20, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[CabotCove]

-It's hard to take that Iris-Linda scene seriously when it's obvious that the writer doesn't know how girls talk.

 

LOL

[driedfruit]

The way I stated it was over-simplifying, but a fully just evil character with no nuance is also a boring, cheesy option that I also say "no thanks" to. 

 

He doesn't have to be fully evil to kill every single one of the ragtag bunch he loves. Even morally grey protagonists are well capable of sacrificing innocents (and sometimes people they love) for the greater good. If Wells didn't have it in him to kill Cisco then he'd be the lamest villain to ever exist. And boring as hell.

 

 

A lot of the criticism here is misplaced IMO. Much of it seems to come from standards that would apply to Mad Men or other slower paced, character driven dramas. For what this show is supposed to be, 1.15 was badass. The cheese and the cliches are part of the package.

Edited March 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[Oscirus]

I don't know about you, but if I'm standing there with three people looking at me waiting for me to respond, and they clearly all want me to say yes, then I would agree, even if I didn't want to. What were they going to do? Bowl right next to Iris and Eddie and pretend they weren't there? Act like assh0les and flounce out of the bowling alley? Those were the only two other options.

 

Say maybe some other time and go bowl in another lane. It's not like Eddie was exactly welcoming.  I'm sorry but if you think somebody is out to sabotage your relationship, why in the hell would you agree to go on a double date with that person?

 

  Iris was also extremely touchy-feely with Barry beyond that, and it was noticed by both of their Significant others.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the intimacy of wiping crud off of someone's mouth. But how exactly was Iris extremely touchy-feely beyond that?  If anything she was actually pretty grabby with her own boyfriend.  I'm guessing that people are going to say that she was overcompensating with that?

 

And if Iris and Barry were more in tune social cues, perhaps they would have realized right away they were acting inappropriately, and that their dates weren't happy with either of them.

 

Or their dates could have just told them the behavior was bothering them and the situation could've been rectified on the spot.

 

If Iris truly felt she did nothing wrong, and it was all just innocent, she wouldn't have felt she had anything to apologize for.

 

She apologized for interrupting their date, not her behavior on the date. And she had no idea she was offending them because, they refused to tell her this until they accused her of loving Barry.

 

This happened at the police station when Eddie was giving the cops instructions and Barry cupped Iris's face to console her about her father's disappearance. Eddie gave them a look and they both looked away guiltily. Deep inside, they know their actions aren't entirely platonic.

 

By that point they went too far.  I have a feeling that if that timeline would've continued without the typhoon/kiss happening that both would've been receiving ultimatums.

 

But beyond all that, I...just didn't see fireworks with that kiss.  Not sure if it was the way it was shot/directed, or Patton was uncomfortable, but it appeared that she wasn't even kissing Gustin.

yea, that scene was over-directed from the zoom in to the 360 shot they went for too much with that kiss. Not to mention that it looked like they stopped halfway through it.

Nah, no one can run from someone as fast as (or faster than!) the Flash; it'd be absolutely futile.

 

UNLESS YOU'RE THE WEATHER WIZARD IN THIS VERY EPISODE, of course.

 

 

OMG I forgot all about that. So what do you do when a powered down meta-human is in the police station? You let him go of course.

 

I think it's kind of like how you don't want to run from preditors. He thought if he stayed still maybe he could argue his way out of it. If he had run, that would have made wells attack him immediately. He also could have been stalling I hopes that someone would come. I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon.

 

Even if I ignore the fact that he pretty much used zero delaying tactics other then a half-hearted attempt to pretend to help RF. There's also the fact that he just stayed there as RF approached him. I figure even if he was stunned that he'd at least involuntarily flinch.  Hell at that point, why not try to hit him? You know that you're going to die, might as well try something.

[cambridgeguy]

 

So what do you do when a powered down meta-human is in the police station? You let him go of course.

Hey, you don't have to deal with the morals of tossing people in your own prison without a trial if you just let them go.  Is it better to be incompetent or morally compromised?

 

Of course, the police decided to leave that wand out in the middle of the entryway rather than INSIDE where a cop could have grabbed it instantly.  I'm not sure I'd trust them with anything important either.

[Shanna]

He didn't tell anyone else what he planned to do besides Caitlyn, so who else would just show up?

Barry, for one. He knew Caitlin was supposed to be distracting wells. He knew wells was somehow there. He didn't know wells was so obvious in leaving Caitlin but he might expect her to send Barry to check it out just in case and Barry is the only person that's any match for wells. And if he hadn't been distracted, that would have happened. I'm not going to fault Cisco for not doing anything else when anything else he would have done would have been worse than useless. But we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

. There's also the fact that he just stayed there as RF approached him. I figure even if he was stunned that he'd at least involuntarily flinch. Hell at that point, why not try to hit him? You know that you're going to die, might as well try something.

In another time, that my considered more dignified and brave than running from death. If I thought he had a prayer I might agree he should have done something. But he didn't. Edited March 20, 2015 by Shanna

[marketdoctor]

 

Hey, you don't have to deal with the morals of tossing people in your own prison without a trial if you just let them go.  Is it better to be incompetent or morally compromised?

 

Morally incompetent, because you can occasionally stumble into the right answer (as Flash sometimes does.)  That said, the prison opens up a lot of issues.

 

 

Barry/Iris is deeply creepy due to the sibling vibe and I have no clue why they went that route, nor why they also continue to refer to the sibling vibe textually. ("Have you seen Dad?")

 

One of the challenges of this show:  Joe West is Dad to both Iris and Barry (using the M*A*S*H distinction between "father" and "Dad"), but rarely makes reference to them being step-brother and sister.  They want to have the benefits of closeness, but not the squicky factors of Family Date Night.  That'd be a good one for Wells to call them out on, so he can still be evil, but occasionally have a point.  

[Sakura12]

They're not step siblings, they are adopted siblings. But it's still gross when they keep mentioning that or say "Have you seen Dad?" then make out with each other. The writers may have been having fun with that but that's not going to make me want to ship that couple if they keep doing that. Stay far away of mentions of the siblingness of their relationship and don't have them cheat on their significant others. Of course they'll probably just make Eddie evil so Iris could be in the right. 

 

There writers are terrible at romance but I suppose they are right on par for the CW. 

[FurryFury]

Yeah, you're right about The CW and romances. I literally don't like any romantic relationship on any CW show, and I watch, like, 4 or 5. Maybe some third-rate couples are OK, but that's it, no major pairing is well-written. I'm binging Jane The Virgin right now, and it's actually very fun, but holy shit, the main romance bores me to tears. 

[CabotCove]

Say maybe some other time and go bowl in another lane. It's not like Eddie was exactly welcoming.  I'm sorry but if you think somebody is out to sabotage your relationship, why in the hell would you agree to go on a double date with that person?

 

I don't think Linda thinks ill of Iris, she might actually like her more if Iris was honest with her and they are colleagues. They are going to run into each other and need to get along or at the very least be civil with one another.  I think Linda just want to get to the bottom of the truth. 

 

And no it wasnt a pre-planned double date,  both Iris and Barry gave Linda their word, that there wasn't anything between them. So what reason did Linda have not to give them the benefit of the doubt?, when they so insisted to bowl together. Besides I think she is a woman who would rather know now, whats going on than to be strung along... So she might have been curious to "test the theory". After all she was being cornered by the other 3 to agree, she might as well have used the night to her advantage. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Conell

[Princess Lucky]

And she had no idea she was offending them because, they refused to tell her this until they accused her of loving Barry.

I'm sorry but if I have to alert my significant other to the fact he's flirting with another woman, then we're in trouble, lol. Which I suppose is the point. I don't think Iris and Barry are as clueless as they pretend to be. When it's just the two of them, they can go "haha our behaviour is totally normal right? Awesome!". And then they make out. But when others are around (Eddie, Linda, Joe even) it's harder to keep up the pretense. Barry is so whipped (or, I guess, "in love" with the girl he's been putting on a pedestal his whole life but has never actually dated) that he finds nothing wrong with that. Iris at least is conflicted.

 

Forget Eddie (like Barry and Iris clearly have); doesn't Iris realise she might be hurting Barry? Teasing him like that? Telling him to dump his seemingly great new girlfriend? When Iris has no intention of getting with him unless a tsunami is about to kill everyone? I blame Barry for this, by the way, because to me it seems that he's so weak-willed that he'd be fine with sharing Iris, settling for a touch or a glance or a hint, even if she's still with Eddie. But the fact Barry smiles his puppy dog smile whenever she touches him doesn't make that behaviour OK. If Iris is confused, she should distance herself for Barry's and for her own good, until she figures it out; getting so close to him only further complicates things.

 

Which makes me think; what is Barry going to think when, as hinted at in the promos and as speculated/discussed here, he maybe approaches Iris again knowing she has feelings for him, and she rebuffs him? That Iris isn't ready but she might one day be? That Iris will only confess her true feelings when faced with imminent death? That puts him in a bad position; I have to assume that Linda will dump him (I'd like to hope she was about to dump him when he rushed out of the precinct), and he'll have knowledge of Iris' feelings. How could he date anyone else with that in mind? Would he just wait for Iris indefinitely? Hoping she'd come to her senses soon? What am I saying, of course that's what he's going to do. That's what he's done his whole life. That, or he'll get agitated when Iris doesn't return his advances in this timeline and maybe, mercifully, grow a pair and decide to genuinely move on with his life and leave Iris on the backburner (assuming she would let him, which is a big assumption). 

 

This is making me dislike Barry, frankly. He doesn't seem to have a spine when it comes to "love"; "Iris I know you're moving in with the man you love but btw I love you, feel free to keep dating him tho and I'll stay in the friendzone, Merry Xmas!", "Joe pls tell me what to do with my feels about your daugher who is dating your partner!", "omg Linda that's silly, I'm not into Iris, I don't know why she would even suggest that lol", "Ugh Iris stop messing up my thing with Linda! I like her! But not if you like me back, then I don't like her, pls love me!!". That, to me, is not a viable romantic lead. That's a guy who has no balls. If the show were set in high school, I'd accept it and think Barry is precious and has a lot of growing up to do. But these people are supposed to be grown-ups. It's like the CW made them adults for wider appeal (and so Barry could have a legit job) but the writers didn't take that into consideration when writing the love triangle.

 

The way I stated it was over-simplifying, but a fully just evil character with no nuance is also a boring, cheesy option that I also say "no thanks" to.

He doesn't have to be fully evil to kill every single one of the ragtag bunch he loves. Even morally grey protagonists are well capable of sacrificing innocents (and sometimes people they love) for the greater good. If Wells didn't have it in him to kill Cisco then he'd be the lamest villain to ever exist. And boring as hell.

I actually both agree and disagree with these points of view. I think it's true that, if Wells were to spare Cisco, it would significantly diminish his "bite" as a villain. If he's the type of villain who has been shown to care very little for human (or metahuman) life, and suddenly he's all "omg Cisco I could never hurt you!", then, well. Not much of a villain. I think having him kill Cisco but with something resembling, um, being bummed out, was perfect. Wells didn't start crying, but his voice did go soft and it almost broke for a split second. Nor did he waver; he had a plan, Cisco was an obstacle, boom. If the stakes are as high as we think and if the Reverse Flash is the villain he's meant to be, Cisco had to die.

 

At the same time, the "explanation" as to why Wells was pretty much nonchalant was, to me, fantastic: "to me you've been dead for centuries". That's enough to keep me from thinking he's "fully evil". I mean, of course he's fully evil. But not in a sociopathic kind of way. I think his predicament has greatly affected him. He did attempt to kill Barry (for reasons unknown), and he did kill Nora, which makes him a villain. But then he was stuck (for 15 years, no less) in a world about 5 centuries behind his own, interacting with "people" who, to him, were all ghosts. It could all be a rationalisation, but I get that it might be hard for him to form attachments with people when he is acutely aware of basically their entire lives. He knows the future, his own time, and he had/has access to newspapers/books detailing all the in-between centuries. He knows Cisco will become Vibe, he knows about Caitlin, about Barry, about Oliver being the Arrow, about Felicity. How can he see them for who they are?

 

Still, he has found it in himself to grow "fond" of them, Cisco especially (makes sense, because Cisco is the best). Even taking the time to hang out with Cisco and watch movies, with no ulterior motive. Just because he was enjoying himself. That's just the right amount of humanisation for Wells without giving him a heart of gold, in my opinion. And, by the way, "fond" is a great word; there's condescension built in, at least the way Wells said it. Like "you're adorable! Aw. Now die!". His fondness for them would never allow him to stray from his plan. A plan he has been waiting to execute for 15 years; in fact, I think that this "deadline" must have made life harder for Wells. If he know he'd be forever stuck in our time he might just give up and try to adjust, fit in. But he knew he'd have an out. So he'd always treat everyone around him as temporary. That's why he's always alone.

 

Which brings me to my own interpretation of the cruelty of his acts, and the reason I really loved the route the writers took with his expository monologue; since Wells wants to return to the future, when Cisco and Caitlin and everyone will be long dead (like, loooooong), what difference does it make if he kills them now? They'll die anyway (and he likely knows how and when they die). They're as good as dead. We all are. Hell, to him they have already died. Wells being from the distant future allows him to be detached in a way that, to me, explains his actions. And it's a fresh twist to a villain. Detached not emotionally, but pragmatically. Wells is living in a ghost world. All these people he is killing are just that, to him; ghosts.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Princess Lucky

[Oscirus]

The cheating stigma is weird to me because it seems that in the majority of  the movies/tv shows that have romantic subplots, usually, one part of the romance winds up cheating. I guess it doesn't bother me as much because I'm used to the storyline. Aside from the incest/non-incest part of it, this romance is one big cliché,  including, the part about the female not knowing what she wants until the male tells her.

 

Besides I think she is a woman who would rather know now, whats going on than to be strung along... So she might have been curious to "test the theory". After all she was being cornered by the other 3 to agree, she might as well have used the night to her advantage.

 

Good point. I never considered that aspect.

 

Of course, the police decided to leave that wand out in the middle of the entryway rather than INSIDE where a cop could have grabbed it instantly.  I'm not sure I'd trust them with anything important either.

 

I'm surprised that Joe didn't try to keep that wand a secret. He's making progress.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Oscirus