S03.E06: Born Again

[Bannon]

Personally I wish Phillip and Elizabeth had never fallen in love. I don't need to see her tension about the Kimmie assignment; it's perfectly clear to me that Phillip is ambivalent at the very least about using someone so young. Adding Elizabeth's incipient judgement to the scenario feels like they're stacking the deck to me. Besides she's not feeling compunction about Kimmie being young; she just doesn't want Phillip to fuck anyone else. I think she's compartmentalized Martha because his physical relationship with her happened before it "happened" for her and Phillip. Martha is clearly a mark that Phillip feels barely veiled indifference for. Kimmie has been humanized by Phillip's concern for her.

 

It's interesting that people think nothing happens on this show. I always find it teeming with activity - but it's of the character-building variety, not derring-do. If The Americans were all James Bondian activity their cover would have been blown years ago. They are working a longer, much more subtle game. I loves me a character study.

It's funny, to me that the ian Fleming stuff the writers do is so inept that it turns me off. The again, I've pretty much hated Bond movies since I turned 20. I wish it was more John LeCarre than Ian Fleming, but who knows? Maybe if they went more in that direction I'd be the last person watching. 

I don't have to explain (and I can't) why viewers may find this material disturbing vs. material on The Sopranos or some other show. People have different tastes and different tolerances - I think that's the simple explanation for it. I think its a bit presumptuous to say that the "disturbing" material in the show may not be problematic for some viewers.

Oh, I agree that it is, even if I don't understand it. I was just doubtful that the reason why the show isn't more popular is because it is too disturbing.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Bannon

[Guest]

Hank was a really good DEA agent, with other admirable qualities to go along with ones which were less so. He had real complexity. Stan? He sucks at his job, he sucks in his relationship wth his family, he's pretty devoid of a sense of humor, and he gets a huge amount of screen time. Just a real fundamental error in the way the show is written.

I think Stan is a great agent (as in when he sniffed out the recent defector's b.s.), made a grave error with his wife by falling for Nina, and is funny.  It's not 'in your face' funny and James Bond style agent work but I like the character's subtlety and stories.  

 

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

 

I don't see it much different than what Tim's doing with Paige.  I think that's what the writers are implying, with all the parallels, including Phillip praying with Kim, and her being into it.

 

I loved Phillip's excuse. It beat my "impotent from PTSD from Nam" idea!   

 

Wow, what kind of baptism was that?  Full dunk, backwards, and held under for a five count?  It was lovely cinematically and I think it was supposed to be troubling and bordering on violent looking.  And hark back to Elizabeth being submerged in the tub in the season opener, and tossing Paige in the pool.  

 

I also liked the saying on the front of the pulpit or altar... I don't remember it now but it was ironic.  About being born into something, I think.  Poor P&E were probably thinking, "You were born into OUR world, our beliefs, not this!"  

[CarpeDiem54]

"Wow, what kind of baptism was that? Full dunk, backwards, and held under for a five count? It was lovely cinematically and I think it was supposed to be troubling and bordering on violent looking. "

It's the kind of baptism that Baptists and other evangelical churches use. It's very common.

[RedheadZombie]

"Wow, what kind of baptism was that? Full dunk, backwards, and held under for a five count? It was lovely cinematically and I think it was supposed to be troubling and bordering on violent looking. "

It's the kind of baptism that Baptists and other evangelical churches use. It's very common.

 

Yep, did it myself when I was fourteen.  It was in slow motion, so she wasn't under water for more than a few seconds.

 

ETA:  Not to get all religious (I'm a lapsed Baptist anyway), but Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist by full immersion.

Edited March 7, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[Palomar]

Paige seems uncomfortably close to her pastor.  I'll bet she is already telling him things about her parents.  Just wait until she puts things together or is told by Mom.

[CarpeDiem54]

Yep, did it myself when I was fourteen.  It was in slow motion, so she wasn't under water for more than a few seconds.

 

ETA:  Not to get all religious (I'm a lapsed Baptist anyway), but Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist by full immersion.

Yep, same here (the baptism and lapsed Baptist part). I'm a Methodist now and it was weird the first time I saw someone baptised by just pouring a little water over their head.

Paige seems uncomfortably close to her pastor.  I'll bet she is already telling him things about her parents.  Just wait until she puts things together or is told by Mom.

Oh, yeah, I can see Paige totally freaking out and running to Creepy Pastor Tim for guidance. I wonder if Philip or Elizabeth would kill him if he interferes? That could be interesting.

[Sienna]

Shopping was much worse back then, that was long before the days of the internet shopping craze.  So, the stores were much more crowded.  The popularity of Cabbage Patch dolls made things even worse.  Grown ass adults getting out of control.  It was just a doll with a birth certificate.  People used to fight over those damn things.  I never understood it. 

 

OMG, you're right! I had totally blocked out the Cabbage Patch craze.

[pasdetrois]

 

It's the kind of baptism that Baptists and other evangelical churches use. It's very common.

Absolutely. Think Robert Duvall in Tender Mercies. It's routine in many Christian churches that preach the born-again philosophy. Some do it in creeks and rivers. I used to listen to two relatives argue about which baptism style was correct: dipped vs. sprinkled.

[lucindabelle]

I loved the sopranos and definitely find the unhealthy relationship here for putting,

For one thing, we knew who tony soprano was from the outset.

For another, we never saw him victimize an innocent.ll it may have haooened but we didn't see it.

Tony and Carmela had no plans to turn meadow and Anthony jr. Into mobsters.

The one time a young girl was viciously hurt was a major plot point and tony eventually killed the mobster who did it.

To say I shouldn't be squicked out over the spectre of this relationship because people are killed is a little rude. People get killed in every murder mystery ever written, we've buikt up a tolerance to it, it's a trope in soy stories. This is not.

Nina in prison bores me as much as bates in prison in Downton Abbey and now Anna, maybe prison scenes are just boring.

[sistermagpie]

Oh, no doubt, a charcter as sure of herself as E needs, dramatically speaking, a hard fall. Timing is everything, as always.

 

 

Yes, Elizabeth's been downright smug at times since the beginning of the season and she is just so set on herself being right. Plus she's got basically no opposition since she doesn't take Philip's concerns seriously and she's got the Centre on her side--and even Paige on her side in some ways.

 

Paige seems uncomfortably close to her pastor.  I'll bet she is already telling him things about her parents.  Just wait until she puts things together or is told by Mom.

 

 

The earlier conversation of Paige on the bus with the Pastor definitely confirmed that she talks to him about her parents in ways I certainly wouldn't like if I was a parent. Pastor Tim was kind of cool "Hey, it's tough being a parent!" and "They let you go because it was important to you!" but also subtly critical , like suggesting that her dad gave her a hard time. More than once it's reminded me of Elizabeth and Gabriel this season, the way she's so eager to discuss Philip with Gabriel to give Gabriel a sense of what makes him tick or where he is emotionally. Then Gabriel uses that info when he's manipulating him.

 

Philip's much more closed-mouthed about Elizabeth and Paige and Henry to Gabriel. When Gabriel asked about the new relationship they seemed to have Philip just acknowledged it with a "yes" (Elizabeth looked at him differently these days) while Elizabeth said something like "things are different...well, they WERE different" like she was already pulling back on that and leaning towards Gabriel/the Centre again. Elizabeth and Paige both love themselves some male authority figures to please and get approval from.

 

I was talking to someone else about Paige seeming to really mix politics with religion so completely and I sometimes wonder if it really is more politics to her and a lot of her interest in the spiritual/religious stuff isn't somewhat about pleasing Pastor Tim, even if it's unconscious. When she talks about why she admires Jesus she does seem to make it like he's just a social activist. I know there's a long tradition of Jesus as Rebel in Christianity--it's not that the two things are in conflict, but her lines about how she feels about the political activism come across to me as far more confident and believable than her talk about prayer and being at peace after her baptism.

 

There could be many reasons for this, but one of them could be sort of intentional, making it clear that Elizabeth really is somewhat right in noting that it's the activism Paige likes and not Jesus as Savior and if she was going to do one or the other she'd drop the church part and simply find community in the protest movement.

 

Btw, while I thought Tim's claim that it was a radical act of defiance to be baptized to be empty flattery and not really true for Paige, I liked how that idea of radical acts of defiance was reflected in Elizabeth's speech at the end, but how it seemed like Philip was actually the one committing the radical acts of defiance. Only it didn't look like what either Elizabeth or Paige would have thought of that as looking. When Philip praises Paige for being true to herself, it's coming from someone who wasn't raised with the freedom to do that as much, who then became a tool for a larger force and who now plays so many characters he's genuinely often unsure of who "himself" really is. So Philip continuing to avoid sleeping with Kimmie despite pressure from all sides to do so (even Elizabeth can't bring herself to openly go against the Centre and say he shouldn't) simply because it feels wrong for him is pretty serious. He's always been the more independent-thinker of the pair, but this seems like he knows there's a battle for his soul going on somehow.

 

To say I shouldn't be squicked out over the spectre of this relationship because people are killed is a little rude. People get killed in every murder mystery ever written, we've buikt up a tolerance to it, it's a trope in soy stories. This is not.

 

 

I'm not bothered by the Kimmie storyline (I'm intrigued by it and think it really works as a battle for Philip) but I agree with this. All the crimes on TV are fictional so our reactions to them don't have much to do with what our reactions would be in real life. What Philip is doing with Kimmie brings up entirely different issues and emotions than anything Tony did, so there's no way to really compare them.

 

I wonder sometimes, too, if one of the reasons for the show's unpopularity is that there's very few audience-pleasing moments. I mean, you can have anti-heroes doing terrible things who still have times where the audience can vicariously enjoy what they're doing or cheer them on a little. I think there's very few moments like that in this show. At best there are times where you're a little relieved that something really bad didn't happen--yet.

[tljgator]

 

I was talking to someone else about Paige seeming to really mix politics with religion so completely and I sometimes wonder if it really is more politics to her and a lot of her interest in the spiritual/religious stuff isn't somewhat about pleasing Pastor Tim, even if it's unconscious. When she talks about why she admires Jesus she does seem to make it like he's just a social activist.

sistermagpie, I've always just thought she had a crush on Pastor Groovyhair and I think she projects her admiration of the Pastor and what he's into by repeating what he says and doing what he supports doing.

 

I think it's part of what's interesting about the parallel story with Kimmie ... Paige has her own daddy issues and crush on an older guy who pays attention to her issues and I think it's all reflected back nicely in the two stories.

[Bannon]

I think Stan is a great agent (as in when he sniffed out the recent defector's b.s.), made a grave error with his wife by falling for Nina, and is funny.  It's not 'in your face' funny and James Bond style agent work but I like the character's subtlety and stories.  

 

 

I don't see it much different than what Tim's doing with Paige.  I think that's what the writers are implying, with all the parallels, including Phillip praying with Kim, and her being into it.

 

I loved Phillip's excuse. It beat my "impotent from PTSD from Nam" idea!   

 

Wow, what kind of baptism was that?  Full dunk, backwards, and held under for a five count?  It was lovely cinematically and I think it was supposed to be troubling and bordering on violent looking.  And hark back to Elizabeth being submerged in the tub in the season opener, and tossing Paige in the pool.  

 

I also liked the saying on the front of the pulpit or altar... I don't remember it now but it was ironic.  About being born into something, I think.  Poor P&E were probably thinking, "You were born into OUR world, our beliefs, not this!"  

Yeah, I just don't think it is credible at all that a great agent would develop an emotional infatuation/dependency on an asset, like Stan did with Nina. A great agent is ruthless when the job demands it. It would have been much better written if Stan was a cold hearted bastard who used Nina for sex, and to attempt to manipulate her, and was smart enough to grasp that she might be used as a honeytrap, thus feeding her disinformation. The Stan/Nina interaction was extaordinarily poorly written it seems to me. I just don't believe that  a guy who spent years successfully undercover with neo-Nazis  would behave in the manner that Stan has.

[Guest]

I like that Stan is human.  

[sistermagpie]

I think it's part of what's interesting about the parallel story with Kimmie ... Paige has her own daddy issues and crush on an older guy who pays attention to her issues and I think it's all reflected back nicely in the two stories.

 

 

I agree. And it seems also interesting to me that Philip's main position is to be hands off in not telling her what to do because is obviously the kind of person--even if it's just at this point in her life, but I suspect she shares this personality with her mother--who likes having a role model and a guide. So it's not just that Philip is often out of the house and she feels that he's lying a lot and so is unstable, but also that even when he's there he's not the same kind of guy. In fact, she can't even really tell the kind of guy he is--not just because he lies about it but I think also because he's so guarded about a lot of himself--so it's hard to really use him as a guide. And we know that from Philip's perspective he mostly wants to guide her into not being like him, so that exacerbates it even more.

 

Which again makes it even sadder when he tries to tell her how much he admires qualities in her and she doesn't get it because she doesn't get where he's coming from.

 

I just don't believe that  a guy who spent years successfully undercover with neo-Nazis  would behave in the manner that Stan has.

 

 

I can definitely see the validity in this criticism of Stan, but the way I look at it is that almost everything about Stan is about how his undercover work completely screwed him up. He was a complete sucker for Nina because she offered him a (fake) chance to play the hero and that's something he desperately wants to get back to in terms of how he sees himself. It just wound up making him even less of a hero.

 

it's not, after all, as Nina plays him really well or anything. Stan practically throws himself into that deception. You wouldn't expect even a rookie agent to believe that this woman should be in love with him under those circumstances. Plus he's undermining himself by sleeping with her when obviously the "right" thing to do would be to treat her professionally.

 

Unfortunately we haven't seen Stan when he's at this best so we've nothing to compare it too, but I feel like we're supposed to be seeing him crashing and burning here.

[Guest]

I feel like in some ways Stan goes too deep into his undercover roles.  He immersed himself in the prior assignment and alienated his family.  Then he fell into actual love with Nina and pushed them all the way over the edge.  

 

It's like he has work so compartmentalized he was surprised he couldn't be both Nina's lover and Sandra's wife, or absent while his son grew up but still a respected dad.  It's why he can't see the two Russian spies right in front of his face. 

[Bannon]

I loved the sopranos and definitely find the unhealthy relationship here for putting,

For one thing, we knew who tony soprano was from the outset.

For another, we never saw him victimize an innocent.ll it may have haooened but we didn't see it.

Tony and Carmela had no plans to turn meadow and Anthony jr. Into mobsters.

The one time a young girl was viciously hurt was a major plot point and tony eventually killed the mobster who did it.

To say I shouldn't be squicked out over the spectre of this relationship because people are killed is a little rude. People get killed in every murder mystery ever written, we've buikt up a tolerance to it, it's a trope in soy stories. This is not.

Nina in prison bores me as much as bates in prison in Downton Abbey and now Anna, maybe prison scenes are just boring.

Well, I didn't say you "shouldn't" do anything. I said I thought it puzzling.  People can puzzle me all they like; I find it interesting, and I meant no offense.

I like that Stan is human.  

Being ruthless is very, very, human.

[Guest]

Being ruthless is very, very, human.

 

The most ruthless person on the show is Elizabeth.  She's my least favorite, because of it.  She's too cardboard and unrealistic to me.  To me, a realistic mother has soft spots for their kids and a realistic man often has weaknesses for beautiful women like Nina.

[soapfaninnc]

The most ruthless person on the show is Elizabeth.  She's my least favorite, because of it.  She's too cardboard and unrealistic to me.  To me, a realistic mother has soft spots for their kids and a realistic man often has weaknesses for beautiful women like Nina.

Yeah, I was raised by a woman like Elizabeth so it colors my opinion - a lot. She wasn't Russian but she was a socialist and an avowed atheist. I had no meaning for her beyond what she could browbeat me into doing - no identity apart from what she demanded I be.  I broke free of it but it was a messy, hurtful experience.  Even though I reached a point where I agreed to disagree about certain issues because I felt one way and she another - she never could compromise that way.  I feel the opposite about my kids - they are themselves first and foremost. I'm more like Phillip in that I want my kids to choose what they feel is right and even if it winds up being the opposite of my right? Well, they have that right.

[BW Manilowe]

I feel like in some ways Stan goes too deep into his undercover roles. He immersed himself in the prior assignment and alienated his family. Then he fell into actual love with Nina and pushed them all the way over the edge.

It's like he has work so compartmentalized he was surprised he couldn't be both Nina's lover and Sandra's wife, or absent while his son grew up but still a respected dad. It's why he can't see the two Russian spies right in front of his face.

Stan couldn't be Sandra's *wife*? (Teasing you about your typo)

[Guest]

Oops!  HAHA

[Bannon]

The most ruthless person on the show is Elizabeth.  She's my least favorite, because of it.  She's too cardboard and unrealistic to me.  To me, a realistic mother has soft spots for their kids and a realistic man often has weaknesses for beautiful women like Nina.

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. The sort of person who is capable of living a double life in the violent, criminal, world of Neo Nazis, or the Aryan Bortherhood, in my experience (and yes I've had some extended contact with the somewaht similar culture of mercenary groups when I've lived overseas) tend to be filled with hypermasculanized manipulators; They really are like prison gangs. I just can't buy a guy, who was 100% immersed in that world for a couple years, acting like Stan did, running a beautiful female asset. Other people differ, obviously. 

[Guest]

Did 15 year old girls in the 80s only want to be around creepy older guys if they plowed them regularly?

That is, girls barely past the teenybopper phase pressure older men to have sex rather than the other way around?

I think there are sexually aggressive teen girls.  I knew some and probably was one.  Though I was a little taken aback when Phillip told Kimmie he had a grown son, because I was kind of hoping they were passing Jim off as 20-something, not 'old enough to actually be Kim's father'.  My teen friends and I didn't go anywhere near that age group.  

 

Bannon- I know nothing about what working undercover with neo-Nazis entails but I'd be hesitant to believe that 100% of agents who do so are hypermasculinized manipulators, and so the fictional portrayal of one with weaknesses is ludicrous.  Though I respect your opinion!   Lord knows they do often write the FBI as ridiculously bumbling, even on this show.

 

I've known cops who worked undercover as narcs and they very easily grow fond of their targets and get overly immersed in the culture.  It's a pretty common tv/movie theme.  Anyone remember the old David Cassidy show about it?  I think it was a Police Story episode that was so popular that they tried to make a series based on it but it didn't go far.  

[RedheadZombie]

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

 

I don't see it much different than what Tim's doing with Paige.  I think that's what the writers are implying, with all the parallels, including Phillip praying with Kim, and her being into it.

 

For the second quote, I'm not sure if you're speaking figuratively or literally, but I can't agree with it either way.  Paige is a teenager seeking a meaningful life, as well as a cause.  Pastor Dan and his church are helping Paige achieve this goal.  If we exclude the money, Pastor Dan has helped Paige in a very positive way.  He's a Christian who believes he's saving Paige's very soul and ensuring her place in heaven.  He's teaching her non-violent protest and sacrificing oneself for the greater good (I would go back to church if I could find one like Paige's!).

 

Now I guess it could be said that Philip is fulfilling Kimmie's needs - in the way a predator senses their prey's weaknesses.  He's teaching her lessons...... what a good fake ID looks like, how you feel when an old perv gives you good pot, how to ditch your concerned friends and hang out with a predator.  He's fully aware of her daddy issues and is taking full advantage.  Not by being a mentor or big brother, but by manipulating her sexually.  He could care less about the state of her soul, in fact he will kill her in a flash if need be.

 

I see that the show is drawing parallels, but for me I think the point is this:  Kimmie is as young and vulnerable as the daughter that Philip adores.  I can also see the point that Paige is looking for fulfillment or meaning that she isn't receiving at home, as is Kimmie.  Ironically, Philip can't provide what his daughter needs, but he can for another man's daughter - in a twisted way, of course.  Again, Philip and Elizabeth can read and manipulate their marks so well, yet their own children can be mysteries.

 

Personally, the creepiest thing about Pastor Tim is that he looks like Philip in a blond shaggy wig.  It's very distracting.

[sistermagpie]

Though I was a little taken aback when Phillip told Kimmie he had a grown son, because I was kind of hoping they were passing Jim off as 20-something, not 'old enough to actually be Kim's father'.  My teen friends and I didn't go anywhere near that age group.

 

 

I was surprised at that confirmation too, that he wasn't trying to appear at least a little younger. But then, I probably shouldn't have been. That was always the idea--Kimmie first threw herself at the guy she was babysitting for so she was always going after middle aged men. I think she's supposed to be very different than the usual girl who just wants a mature boyfriend. She's not just making herself feel powerful and mature through her sex life.

 

Anyone remember the old David Cassidy show about it?  I think it was a Police Story episode that was so popular that they tried to make a series based on it but it didn't go far.

 

 

I can't believe I actually remember this but I totally do! I never watched it, though. I specifically remember seeing a clip once of him being in a bathtub and pulling some woman in with him.

 

I see that the show is drawing parallels, but for me I think the point is this:  Kimmie is as young and vulnerable as the daughter that Philip adores.  I can also see the point that Paige is looking for fulfillment or meaning that she isn't receiving at home, as is Kimmie.  Ironically, Philip can't provide what his daughter needs, but he can for another man's daughter - in a twisted way, of course.  Again, Philip and Elizabeth can read and manipulate their marks so well, yet their own children can be mysteries.

 

 

I assume this was what the original poster meant. Whether or not Tim thinks he's saving Paige's soul, his goal in life is to convert people to his cause and his religion because he thinks that's the greater good. He is openly interested in creating Mini Mes. Philip is under no such delusions that his cause is good for Kimmie, since he knows she has no interest and would get little personal fulfillment out of helping the Soviets in the Cold War. He's just manipulating her for a greater good (in his mind) that's not of interest to her.

 

But to me this makes Philip come across as the less offensive of the two in their scenes, even if he's much more of a predator. Philip knows he's manipulating Kimmie, so when he acts for her own good it's when he tries to minimize that manipulation. It doesn't make him a good guy, but he doesn't think he's the good guy either. Tim's so convinced that he's got all the answers and that he's literally God's gift to kids like Paige he's openly possessive and smug in his success. He seems to frankly enjoy the discomfort of her parents as they watch her under his sway, his eyes practically twinkling over the fact that if they want to get any of that themselves they need to become followers of him too. When he comes to their house he becomes head of the table, then they watch him perform with Paige in his house. He's even, ironically, often handsy. Not because there's some hint he's a molester, but it's definitely intentional.

 

Basically, while Pastor Tim shares a lot of Philip/Jim's methods in getting Kimmie's attention and interest he's more like Elizabeth, doing what's best for Paige by getting rid of the bad influences and giving her a meaningful life and a cause--the right meaning and the right cause. Pastor Tim thinks her parents have failed her because they're not right with God so Tim's stepping in to give her what she needs. Elizabeth thinks Pastor Tim's corrupted her and made her stupid with his fairy tales and soft action so she's going to take her in hand and turn her into an actual person of substance. Pastor Tim would see himself as simply having shared the good news with Paige and she liked it of her own free will, so the fact that she's adopted all his views and interests is all on her, but that's exactly what Elizabeth is planning to do as well. Since they both think that what's best for them is what's best for Paige, there's almost no limit to what they feel justified in doing and they don't question themselves about it.

Edited March 7, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

I think there are sexually aggressive teen girls.  I knew some and probably was one.  Though I was a little taken aback when Phillip told Kimmie he had a grown son, because I was kind of hoping they were passing Jim off as 20-something, not 'old enough to actually be Kim's father'.  My teen friends and I didn't go anywhere near that age group.  

 

Bannon- I know nothing about what working undercover with neo-Nazis entails but I'd be hesitant to believe that 100% of agents who do so are hypermasculinized manipulators, and so the fictional portrayal of one with weaknesses is ludicrous.  Though I respect your opinion!   Lord knows they do often write the FBI as ridiculously bumbling, even on this show.

 

I've known cops who worked undercover as narcs and they very easily grow fond of their targets and get overly immersed in the culture.  It's a pretty common tv/movie theme.  Anyone remember the old David Cassidy show about it?  I think it was a Police Story episode that was so popular that they tried to make a series based on it but it didn't go far.  

Well, again, people obviously differ, but as far as real life people who've lived that life, I'd suggest some of the interviews that the real life FBI Agent Joe Pistone (Donnie Brasco), who posed as a Bonnano crime family member for 6 years, has given over the years. Yes, the undercover operatives do grow fond of the criminals they are conning. It actually helps to do so, becaiuse it makes the con more credible, but ultimately somebody who lives that life has very, very, strong sentimentality governor; when it is throat-slittin' time , the throats get slit. I could see a straight arrow FBI type, who has never really worked in the undercover environment, either as the undercover agent, or running such agent, also new to counterintelligence, falling for Nina's honeytrap, but not one with Stan's background. A better way to put it is that an FBI Agent who spent years undercover simply isn't going to be the straight arrow type; the straight arrow type can't convincingly play the role. As another example, a guy who has that background, who ends up going to est, in an attempt to win back his wife, for instance, is going to try to con the est organizers, and very likely succeed.. A guy like Stan should nearly reflexively be triyng to run a con on nearly everyone, because somebody with a different personaity type wouldn't have the resume he has.

 

In any case, I won't post about it any more, because I don't mean to beat it into the ground, but I just think the character is poory conceived, written, directed, and possibly acted as well.    

Edited March 7, 2015 by Bannon

[Umbelina]

I see what you are saying Bannon.

 

I think it was a potent combination with Nina though, and so I easily believe Stan fell for her.

 

This was a woman from his kind of life, someone who understood, in ways his wife never could (probably because he couldn't really confess the things he has to do when undercover, many being classified, others perhaps being too horrible to admit.)  Nina GOT all of that, without him having to go into detail.  So basically:

•  
• Nina was sexy as hell, and good at seducing men.
• Nina was a very important asset, so he threw himself into the roll, perhaps too much.
• Nina was in real danger, bringing out those protective instincts (always a turn on for many men)
• Nina "got" Stan's demons, in a way his wife never could, either because Stan couldn't tell her, or was shielding her from horrors.
• Stan was lonely, because he wasn't/couldn't be truthful with is wife, or share his deepest self/fears.
• The old "the penis wants what it wants" and great mind blowing sex must be love thing.
• PSTD from his 3 years undercover with scum seems to have played a part as well.

 

There is more, of course, but there is a reason "honey traps" work, and a reason many spies use, or are brought down by sex.  In the end, Stan pulled himself together and came to his senses about betraying the USA.  I think Stan DOES think he loves Nina.  Still.  Super hot, super vulnerable women can, and have, compromised things before.  In the beginning, before Nina was doubled, she was being HONEST about wanting to defect.  So Stan didn't completely misjudge her, back when he was falling in love. 

[Ellaria]

Yeah, I just don't think it is credible at all that a great agent would develop an emotional infatuation/dependency on an asset, like Stan did with Nina. A great agent is ruthless when the job demands it. It would have been much better written if Stan was a cold hearted bastard who used Nina for sex, and to attempt to manipulate her, and was smart enough to grasp that she might be used as a honeytrap, thus feeding her disinformation. The Stan/Nina interaction was extaordinarily poorly written it seems to me. I just don't believe that  a guy who spent years successfully undercover with neo-Nazis  would behave in the manner that Stan has.

 

I certainly think that it can happen but maybe it happened to Stan too quickly. I agree that it was terribly written. We barely got to know him and suddenly, oops, he is in love with his asset. And then he is willing to throw away his troubled marriage for it...that is, until his wife leaves him. And now Stan, our great agent, is a sad sack. 

 

I can definitely see the validity in this criticism of Stan, but the way I look at it is that almost everything about Stan is about how his undercover work completely screwed him up. He was a complete sucker for Nina because she offered him a (fake) chance to play the hero and that's something he desperately wants to get back to in terms of how he sees himself. It just wound up making him even less of a hero...

 

Unfortunately we haven't seen Stan when he's at this best so we've nothing to compare it too, but I feel like we're supposed to be seeing him crashing and burning here.

 

I think you have identified the problem: we haven't truly seen Stan at his best. We are told that he is a good agent.

 

For the most part, what we see is different. He is a broken man and probably suffers with some form of PTSD. He and his family are in a new city, most likely without family and friends nearby. And yet, in one of the first episodes, his "spidey sense" kicks in and he starts snooping around the Jenninngs' garage in the middle of the night. He turns Nina into a double agent quickly and convincingly. What happened to that Stan?

 

There is more, of course, but there is a reason "honey traps" work, and a reason many spies use, or are brought down by sex.  In the end, Stan pulled himself together and came to his senses about betraying the USA.  I think Stan DOES think he loves Nina.  Still.  Super hot, super vulnerable women can, and have, compromised things before.  In the beginning, before Nina was doubled, she was being HONEST about wanting to defect.  So Stan didn't completely misjudge her, back when he was falling in love. 

 

Yes, when push came to shove, he did not betray the USA. I thought that was a sign that Stan was returning to form...to the great FBI agent that we are told that he is. And what happened instead? He is going to EST meetings. When this show began, I viewed Stan as the most important character after Philip and Elizabeth. I can't say that now. I'm not sure why we are on this journey with Stan to find love. I hate to say it but the writers have made a mess of this character.

[DrSpaceman]

I still think having Phillip commit statutory rape is just a stupid move, not just because its creepy. I know they have committed worse crimes, but to have an ongoing relationship with the girl, have sex with her, stick around and know that at any time an emotionally unstable 15 year old, if she gets mad or upset for any little thing, can simply tell her father and immediately have phillip arrested.

[crgirl412]

I finally watched this episode.  It was easier to buy it on Amazon for 1.99 than to dig around online again looking for it for free.  It was good! 

 

As a Christian it was extremely bothersome to me for pastor Tim to bring up their political action while Baptizing Paige.  I almost felt sorry for Elizabeth and Philip as they looked so forlorn.  I thought one of them might jump up to stop it like at a wedding when the priest/minister asks if anyone has any objections. 

 

That Gabriel is a slick one in mildly threatening Philip and giving Elizabeth permission to not be held back by him. 

 

I loved how Philip was trying to tell Paige to basically not be swayed by anyone ( like her mother maybe??) 

 

Elizabeth taking Paige to her and Gregory's old stomping grounds to show her that she and Philip really fought for the greater good was almost funny.  

 

Have we seen the woman who planted the bug in the briefcase before?  She looked familiar. 

[DrSpaceman]

I was surprised at that confirmation too, that he wasn't trying to appear at least a little younger. But then, I probably shouldn't have been. That was always the idea--Kimmie first threw herself at the guy she was babysitting for so she was always going after middle aged men. I think she's supposed to be very different than the usual girl who just wants a mature boyfriend. She's not just making herself feel powerful and mature through her sex life.

 

 

I can't believe I actually remember this but I totally do! I never watched it, though. I specifically remember seeing a clip once of him being in a bathtub and pulling some woman in with him.

 

 

I assume this was what the original poster meant. Whether or not Tim thinks he's saving Paige's soul, his goal in life is to convert people to his cause and his religion because he thinks that's the greater good. He is openly interested in creating Mini Mes. Philip is under no such delusions that his cause is good for Kimmie, since he knows she has no interest and would get little personal fulfillment out of helping the Soviets in the Cold War. He's just manipulating her for a greater good (in his mind) that's not of interest to her.

 

But to me this makes Philip come across as the less offensive of the two in their scenes, even if he's much more of a predator. Philip knows he's manipulating Kimmie, so when he acts for her own good it's when he tries to minimize that manipulation. It doesn't make him a good guy, but he doesn't think he's the good guy either. Tim's so convinced that he's got all the answers and that he's literally God's gift to kids like Paige he's openly possessive and smug in his success. He seems to frankly enjoy the discomfort of her parents as they watch her under his sway, his eyes practically twinkling over the fact that if they want to get any of that themselves they need to become followers of him too. When he comes to their house he becomes head of the table, then they watch him perform with Paige in his house. He's even, ironically, often handsy. Not because there's some hint he's a molester, but it's definitely intentional.

 

I have honestly never seen any of that out of pastor Tim. Maybe smug, but I have never seem him openly possessive and I have never got the impression he enjoys the parents discomfort. ANd he has never really struck me as handsy.

It still goes back to the fact that Paige came to his church voluntarily and he has simply taught her what he believes. Its his job and its what he believes in. He has a genuine interest in Paige and there is no hidden agenda for him, he is very upfront at least about it, whereas the Phillip/Kimmie relationship is almost completely fake. And the Elizabeth/Phillip -Paige relationship is also a large lie, and she has figured that out. She has even hinted she knows it to her parents. My opinion is regardless of the cause or the goal involved what Paige is responding to is at least the basic honesty of the church relationship.

[DrSpaceman]

I loved the sopranos and definitely find the unhealthy relationship here for putting,

For one thing, we knew who tony soprano was from the outset.

For another, we never saw him victimize an innocent.ll it may have haooened but we didn't see it.

Tony and Carmela had no plans to turn meadow and Anthony jr. Into mobsters.

The one time a young girl was viciously hurt was a major plot point and tony eventually killed the mobster who did it.

To say I shouldn't be squicked out over the spectre of this relationship because people are killed is a little rude. People get killed in every murder mystery ever written, we've buikt up a tolerance to it, it's a trope in soy stories. This is not.

Nina in prison bores me as much as bates in prison in Downton Abbey and now Anna, maybe prison scenes are just boring.

In regard to the sopranos, there is also specifically a whole episode where a soccer coach is sleeping with a player (Meadow is on the team) and Tony finds out about it. The whole episode is over what he decides to do about it. The easy thing is to have the guy killed, given who he is. In the end he simply turns him into the police. Its one of the strongest arguments in the whole series about his counseling with Dr. Malfi having a positive effect on him.

[sistermagpie]

And the Elizabeth/Phillip -Paige relationship is also a large lie, and she has figured that out. She has even hinted she knows it to her parents. My opinion is regardless of the cause or the goal involved what Paige is responding to is at least the basic honesty of the church relationship.

 

 

 

Of course. Pastor Tim isn't doing anything wrong--even Philip and Elizabeth see that. Jim is a guy manipulating a teenager to steal state secrets from her father by disguising himself as a perv who sleeps with minors. Of the two of them, only one is an actual bad guy. And only one is actually lying. I absolutely think that one of the things Paige is drawn to in the church is not just the honesty but the conservative behavior of the community. A kid with a lot of anxiety at home about what the hell is going on, who has real reason to wonder if her parents will disappear one night, would easily be drawn to a church community where they sing hymns, follow codes of behavior from Jesus and have pot lucks.

 

Tim's just also the character I actively dislike when he's onscreen and always have. And I can't imagine his youth group as not being full of insufferable kids. But that's me.

 

On the handsy, thing, btw, that was something that was pointed out to me elsewhere--I hadn't noticed it in this ep but a lot of people were put off by him putting his hand on Paige's shoulder. I remembered the first time Pastor Tim met the Jennings they made a point of having Paige run to him and his wife and they put their arms around her in a clear family pose. That's what I mean, that the show specifically blocks him to have these little gestures of ownership that we know play as threatening to the Jennings. And given his personality I do think there's meant to be a casual possessiveness to the gesture. Even KR in the last podcast said that as her mother she would hate watching her child in that scene.

 

I do think that now that she's started recruiting Paige for real Elizabeth's going to be more upfront about what she believes. One of the biggest themes of the show is how regular people act like spies all the time--nobody's ever completely without an agenda. And even being open about your agenda doesn't mean you're not ever manipulating or trying to exert influence on the person to follow it. There's no way Pastor Tim isn't very well-practiced in just how to proselytize to kids little by little rather than laying out the whole religious conversion right away. Nobody in that kind of job wouldn't do that.

[millennium]

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

 

The show's trying to have it both ways.   The writers are openly flirting with the idea while at the same time using Philip's reluctance as a disclaimer that it's a bad thing.

[Clanstarling]

I just don't know about Gabriel.  Old Dracula is a perfect name for him.  I don't know how FL does it, but he manages to be warm and loving, as well as so sinister.  I don't like him and I don't trust him.  He was introduced as the mentor that Elizabeth and Philip truly loved and trusted.  I don't know yet if this is how Gabriel has always been, but I definitely believe that Philip knows something is off.  Elizabeth continues to trust Gabriel implicitly, which again shows how blind she is in her militant beliefs.

 

Gabriel's like a spider in his lair.  Claudia always met them in public, and was blunt and to the point.   This guy invites them in and manipulates them like a pro.  He feeds them and plays games with them.  And I get the impression that he will always side with Elizabeth over Philip.  I also believe that he all but threatened to have Philip's supposed son killed, if Philip doesn't do as instructed.

 

I trusted Claudia, and I want her back.  I liked how she irritated Elizabeth.

Did anyone else notice that in this episode, there was no food for Phillip (not even leftovers) and a freshly cooked meal for Elizabeth? Phillip's definitely being punished. (to bring in a Pink Floyd reference - "if you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding")

 

If Misha exists, I doubt that anything Gabriel said was true. I think I wasn't listening too thoroughly, because it seemed to me Gabriel told Phillip that Misha's unit was in Afghanistan - therefore making the need for Kimmie's father's information that much more important to Phillip. But I could be definitely be mistaken. The threat was certainly there - whether it was a direct implied threat, or a "think of your son's safety on the front" threat.

 

As for Phillip and Kimmie, it is cringeworthy - but it is supposed to be. Complicated people and situations are often cringeworthy - but I think Phillip's struggle will end with this being his breaking point. I thought his lecture to Paige about not letting anyone telling her what to do or who to be had more than a little relevance to his own situation.

 

As for the EST lady - maybe I'm seeing spies all over - but it occurred to me that she could be a honeytrap.

Edited March 8, 2015 by clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

Did anyone else notice that in this episode, there was no food for Phillip (not even leftovers) and a freshly cooked meal for Elizabeth? Phillip's definitely being punished. (to bring in a Pink Floyd reference - "if you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding")

 

 

That was one of my favorite things in the ep. And as someone else pointed out--Nina also got a nice meal after she betrayed her cellmate. So it was like both the meals had a little bit of betrayal in them, what with Gabriel telling Elizabeth that if Philip was holding her back she needed to go ahead without him. Elizabeth has told Philip she's.  doing it, of course, but I think her hesitancy comes in part from her knowing that often Philip is onto something and rejecting his opinions isn't really the right choice.

 

Elizabeth goes right out and does it after the meal, though. Philip gets coffee and threats but does not do what Gabriel wanted. So he got no meal and no bath/baptism.

 

As for Phillip and Kimmie, it is cringeworthy - but it is supposed to be. Complicated people and situations are often cringeworthy - but I think Phillip's struggle will end with this being his breaking point. I thought his lecture to Paige about not letting anyone telling her what to do or who to be had more than a little relevance to his own situation.

 

 

Absolutely--and so much more, too! Because while it's a show of character for Paige to stand her ground on religion, having been raised in the US she's gotten the "be yourself" message since birth. No wonder it just sounds like standard parent talk. But then you consider Philip's background--last week we saw him literally training his own physical reactions to belong to someone else. That Philip is looking to her as a role-model in standing his own ground--or trying to--despite really not being able to articulate his reasons is pretty great. Re: the show trying to have it both ways, I think I'd feel that way more if Kimmie's scenes seemed more titillating. She did drop a towel this week so I guess they're not totally free of it, but I never feel like Philip's really sexually tempted by her. My thought when she dropped her towel was just wanting him to pick the towel up and feeling a bit sorry for her.

 

That combined with the rejected baptism and no meal with Gabriel gives it almost a mythological vibe to me--rituals mean things, as Pastor Tim says. Or at least they can, depending on the circumstances.

 

As for the EST lady - maybe I'm seeing spies all over - but it occurred to me that she could be a honeytrap.

 

 

I think if Stan ultimately failed to fall for Nina's trap the KGB isn't going to be wasting anybody else on him.

Edited March 8, 2015 by sistermagpie

[kikaha]

 

Basically, while Pastor Tim shares a lot of Philip/Jim's methods in getting Kimmie's attention and interest he's more like Elizabeth, doing what's best for Paige by getting rid of the bad influences and giving her a meaningful life and a cause

 

There's a key difference between Elizabeth and Pastor Tim.  Paige herself has chosen the path Pastor Tim follows. i.e. he is helping guide her down a path she has selected.  With Elizabeth the opposite is true.  Elizabeth is trying to force on Paige the path Elizabeth wants for her. 

 

If you believe in anything close to free will, or people's right to choose for themselves, Pastor Tim's guidance is easily defended, but Elizabeth's is not. 

[beeble]

I still think having Phillip commit statutory rape is just a stupid move, not just because its creepy. I know they have committed worse crimes, but to have an ongoing relationship with the girl, have sex with her, stick around and know that at any time an emotionally unstable 15 year old, if she gets mad or upset for any little thing, can simply tell her father and immediately have phillip arrested.

 

They (TPTB) certainly acknowledge how creepy it is, but really it seems more anachronistic than anything. We are creeped out by this in 2015 much more than people were in 1982. Remember, the 1970's were a seriously free-wheeling time and the country hadn't quite swung back to the far right, shaming place it's been since then. Movies like Porky's and Fast Times at Ridgemont High pretty much establish the teen-age girl as the brainless sex-pot. And today's helicopter parents were outliers back then: most parents just hoped that their kids would stay away from hard drugs and do well enough on their SATs to get into some place respectable.  Honestly, Kimmie is so lonely, vulnerable, and desperate for validation that he could probably turn her to spy for the KGB.  But Philip is more squicked out because she is the same age as his daughter, not just because she is underage and "jailbait". 

[sistermagpie]

There's a key difference between Elizabeth and Pastor Tim.  Paige herself has chosen the path Pastor Tim follows. i.e. he is helping guide her down a path she has selected.  With Elizabeth the opposite is true.  Elizabeth is trying to force on Paige the path Elizabeth wants for her.

 

 

I don't think they're that different in every way. Elizabeth is more sinister because the life she hopes Paige will choose seems certain to lead to unhappiness for her while Pastor Tim feels Jesus brings happiness. But in other ways, it's not so different. Elizabeth is frustrated that she'd never had a chance to share her beliefs with Paige. Why would she see herself as forcing them on her by sharing them? What's Elizabeth going to do that's all that different from Pastor Tim in terms of honestly sharing with her things that she thinks are important and true, and correcting things about Paige's current beliefs? Pastor Tim didn't force his beliefs on anybody, but he was just as intent on guiding her to his way of thinking as Elizabeth is from day 1.

 

Or another way to look at it: would Elizabeth consider her Socialist beliefs to have been forced on her growing up and going to Young Pioneer camp rather than Christian Camp? She would have been very eager to go to it...

 

But Philip is more squicked out because she is the same age as his daughter, not just because she is underage and "jailbait".

 

 

In the movie Shampoo doesn't Warren Beatty have sex with the Carrie Fisher character who's either 13 or 14? And Philip himself was being sent to have sex with any number of adults at probably around 17.

[lucindabelle]

Good pointsl, but... We are in 2015 nd that's when the show is made. Television, like theatre, exits for its audience.

I th nk even back then some grown men and women would have found it pretty squicky. I got hit on once by a grown man when I was in high school and if my dad had known he'd have seriously flipped.

[Zhenya93]

Looked to me as if Nina was eating a dinner of Steak Frites, steak and french fries. Practically, the most popular dish served in French and more importantly, Belgian bistros.

[ShellSeeker]

Did 15 year old girls in the 80s only want to be around creepy older guys if they plowed them regularly?

That is, girls barely past the teenybopper phase pressure older men to have sex rather than the other way around?

 

I think that potentially, a girl of any age, can be seduced by the idea of being involved with an older guy. It's forbidden, plus it has the whole unrequited love/star-crossed lovers angle going on too. Someone Kimmie's age has probably taken an English Lit class or 2 and read things like Wuthering Heights (with Heathcliff, perhaps the most broodingest brooder that ever brooded who spent his whole life pining away for his beloved Cathy), or Romeo and Juliet, and we all know how that ended. Throw in a real-life guy who (like "Jim") appears to be conflicted, misunderstood, and tortured, who's also making you feel like you're the only one who gets him...well, let's just say that the 15 year old girl in me can see why Kimmie is so infatuated with him. 

 

They (TPTB) certainly acknowledge how creepy it is, but really it seems more anachronistic than anything. We are creeped out by this in 2015 much more than people were in 1982. Remember, the 1970's were a seriously free-wheeling time and the country hadn't quite swung back to the far right, shaming place it's been since then. Movies like Porky's and Fast Times at Ridgemont High pretty much establish the teen-age girl as the brainless sex-pot. And today's helicopter parents were outliers back then: most parents just hoped that their kids would stay away from hard drugs and do well enough on their SATs to get into some place respectable.  Honestly, Kimmie is so lonely, vulnerable, and desperate for validation that he could probably turn her to spy for the KGB.  But Philip is more squicked out because she is the same age as his daughter, not just because she is underage and "jailbait". 

 

As someone who was a 15 year old girl in the 80's, at the risk of sounding like a now-cantankerous grumpy old woman, I will say that it absolutely was a different time. I attended a small boarding school in a tiny mountain town in the 80's. There were rumors flying around about teachers and students having affairs the entire time I was there, and no one was too concerned about it. 30 years later, I reconnected with many of my classmates on Facebook, and in a few very candid (not to mention shocking) discussions on the alumni page, I found out that every one of those rumors -- at least every one I'd heard about -- was true. It was an open secret, and in one really awful case, one teacher had sexually abused quite a few junior and senior girls. Everyone knew about this, and yet, nothing was done about it. It was regarded more with a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" attitude, with (probably) the male teachers getting atta-boys when they were behind closed doors. 

 

I was never involved with any teachers, but I do understand how easy it would have been to get pulled into something like that. A male teacher one day made a very suggestive comment to me, and I was squicked out but also sort of flattered...it's hard to explain. Of course now that I have a daughter that age, I find it completely appalling and disgusting.

 

So...all that is to say that if this were happening on a show taking place in 2015, I wouldn't buy it at all. But on a show taking place in the early-to-mid 80's. I find it completely believable.

[beeble]

Good pointsl, but... We are in 2015 nd that's when the show is made. Television, like theatre, exits for its audience.

I th nk even back then some grown men and women would have found it pretty squicky. I got hit on once by a grown man when I was in high school and if my dad had known he'd have seriously flipped.

 

Excellent point.

 

I was 13 in 1982 (and living in the midwest), and while I heard about girls who were "spending time" with older guys (never referred to as "men"), I found the idea pretty gross. I remember a beautiful friend of mine who was 12 and a ringer for Brooke Shields would get hit on all the time by college guys and guys on the local minor-league baseball team. Most backed off when they learned how young she was, but not everybody, and it was pretty well known. She was nice, her parents were nice, but there was no wide-spread condemnation of anyone. Conversely, my parents definitely would have had any adult male's head if I'd gone along with my wilder classmates, but they also would have blamed me for embarrassing them. So while the idea of older guy/teenage girl hook-ups was more common, I know it was never completely accepted. It was more of a "well-it's-bound-to-happen" sort of attitude.  But at the time, people seemed to be much more worried about gay men hitting on boys at school (a local debate was: do we fire a male teacher if we learn he's gay?) or just freaking out about cults, punk-rockers, or Judas Priest.  

[DrSpaceman]

They (TPTB) certainly acknowledge how creepy it is, but really it seems more anachronistic than anything. We are creeped out by this in 2015 much more than people were in 1982. Remember, the 1970's were a seriously free-wheeling time and the country hadn't quite swung back to the far right, shaming place it's been since then. Movies like Porky's and Fast Times at Ridgemont High pretty much establish the teen-age girl as the brainless sex-pot. And today's helicopter parents were outliers back then: most parents just hoped that their kids would stay away from hard drugs and do well enough on their SATs to get into some place respectable. Honestly, Kimmie is so lonely, vulnerable, and desperate for validation that he could probably turn her to spy for the KGB. But Philip is more squicked out because she is the same age as his daughter, not just because she is underage and "jailbait".

I was 10 years old in 1982, I recall the times, know what it was like.....it was a bit more lenient,sure, but a 30 something year old man caught with a 15 year old girl, whose dad also happens to be one of the heads of the FBI/CIA (honestly I forget which it is), was still going to be in some serious trouble

I know most of the focus is on the social inappropriateness of the relationship, but beyond that, I just think its a very risky and stupid move legally

It's no wonder the Russian side lost the Cold War if they spent this much time and effort focusing on recruiting and manipulating teenage boys and girls on both sides.

Edited March 9, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[beeble]

I was 10 years old in 1982, I recall the times, know what it was like.....it was a bit more lenient,sure, but a 30 something year old man caught with a 15 year old girl, whose dad also happens to be one of the heads of the FBI/CIA (honestly I forget which it is), was still going to be in some serious trouble

I know most of the focus is on the social inappropriateness of the relationship, but beyond that, I just think its a very risky and stupid move legally

It's no wonder the Russian side lost the Cold War if they spent this much time and effort focusing on recruiting and manipulating teenage boys and girls on both sides.

 

Philip is closer to 38, and the lowlife that he's pretending to be would be in deep shit if he were caught. Philip could be in even deeper shit if caught, but that's why he's the super-agent. Seriously - I'm surprised both he and Elizabeth have not been caught at all by now with all of the crazy near-misses they've had. And it's why I'm leery of the weekly snuggles with Kimmie. Somebody - a neighbor, a housekeeper, one of K's friends is bound to see him. The only thing that may keep him safe is that K's dad is CIA, and they can't investigate on US soil. And we learned in the Aldrich Ames fallout that the CIA and FBI were/are rivals who almost never kept each other apprised of stuff that could have brought down various spy and other criminal rings. So hey, there's that. But I would love to see Philip in a room where Martha calls him Clark, Kimmie calls him James, and Stan is just perusing the fridge for some beer (and Oleg is just face palming the whole time).

[DrSpaceman]

The ending made me wonder, do we know that Phillip is Elizabeth's father and it's not Gregory? Seems odd to me she starts the story of who she really is by bringing up gregory

[sistermagpie]

The ending made me wonder, do we know that Phillip is Paige's father and it's not Gregory? Seems odd to me she starts the story of who she really is by bringing up gregory.

 

 

I don't think it would add anything good to the story to make Paige Gregory's daughter. We know Philip would be her father regardless and he's already felt and gotten over any betrayal about Gregory so why go through it again? More importantly, Elizabeth and Philip started trying to get pregnant in 1967 and Paige was born in 1968. She presumably also met Gregory at the end of 67 or early in 1968. Elizabeth was always keeping her relationship with Gregory secret, so why risk getting pregnant by him when she didn't want to have a child to begin with and if Paige looked black it would have undermined the whole point of the pregnancy? Gregory never took any particular interest in Paige--on the contrary he seemed to consider her part of Elizabeth's false life with Philip. Since he was using the night Elizabeth came to him horrified at the idea of having a baby to him and wanting to run away to hurt Philip, you'd think he'd have mentioned if this was his child as well. But both Gregory and Elizabeth seemed to see their perfect romance as outside the fake life she lived as a wife and mother. Gregory was the person she could tell that she didn't want to be a mother--she hid that sort of thing with Philip, perhaps because he always felt emotional about the children even before they were both. (She apparently saw him as a good father even before he was one.)

 

I think the story has plenty of symbolic meanings without that part--it's Elizabeth defining herself by the Elizabeth who wasn't a mother at all, and who also wasn't a wife. In this ep both Gregory and Irina came up at a time when the Jennings were in conflict and not working together and hiding things from each other. It was fitting that Elizabeth, who's planning to make her daughter into an asset, would be going back to Gregory, the man who would sacrifice her family and put nothing above the cause and thought her best quality was her strength (meaning willingness to do the same). And Philip would be back not so much with Irina but with a son that is his alone, in danger, and not part of the spy game. Both Philip and Elizabeth were living their alternate lives in their heads (Elizabeth the KGB agent without children, Philip the father without the KGB).

[Milburn Stone]

Phillip is so stressed that he can't even come up with a cover story for Kimmie, he has to use thinly disguised autobiography about the people who are on his mind (Paige and Misha).

 

Actually, I draw a different conclusion. All three of the three most recent episodes have featured spies lying brilliantly by telling the truth. The truth is the best lie of all.

[Dowel Jones]

Wouldn't it be interesting if Kimmie were somehow a plant by the CIA to trick Philip into a honey pot trap?

[gwhh]

They sack groovy hair in a heartbeat! Heck, Phillips was already halfway there one time all ready!

Oh, yeah, I can see Paige totally freaking out and running to Creepy Pastor Tim for guidance. I wonder if Philip or Elizabeth would kill him if he interferes? That could be interesting.

[6 MeowMeowBeenz]

Pastor Tim was kind of cool "Hey, it's tough being a parent!"

 

Good golly. He's Reverend Tim Tom (from The Middle")