S05.E10: The New Maddie?

[OnceSane]

Abby's nemesis, Cathy from Candy Apples, returns with a surprise choreographer who rattles the ALDC girls' confidence. Meanwhile, Abby praises a newcomer as the new Maddie, which doesn't sit well with the moms.

[Loves2Dance]

Boring. I don't even need to watch to know I'm going to be bored. 

[Daisy head]

Ugh! I thought I had seen the last of Cathy! I should've known better :(

Edited March 5, 2015 by Daisy head

[MadLove]

Ugh! I thought I had seen the last of Cathy! I should've known better :(

Awww c'mon. If Cathy is able to even come close to making Abby's head explode it just might be a decent episode...lol

[RedFire2000]

Gosh, this season is soooo boring!!! Same old same old. Wish it concentrated more on the girls dancing.

 

The treatment of Nia is so wrong on every level! Abby is such a heartless jerk to her.

 

So so sick of hearing about Maddie and the Sia video and watching Melissa making these weird faces!!

 

Maddie will always win. In real life, Brynn would clean the floor with Maddie. Jill's comment about Abby protecting Maddie's rep is spot on.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MoonWalker

[Tasya]

Hi All, I was at this competition and I wish I could say that these people are saner than what was shown on TV. Unfortunately I'd be lying lol. The kids are great, but the adults smdh. 

 

Maddie's solo was really good this week; it played much better in person. Brynn's was good but I've seen her do better. People have said online that of course Brynn would lose to Maddie because the choreography was dumbed down; I'll disagree with that. The choreography for Brynn was no worse than what was given to Maddie (which lord knows is not great). However it is definitely not on the level of anything she would have done for Club Dance. But here's the thing, if Maddie and Brynn had the same choreographers from Club Dance, I think each week would be a toss up between them. Maddie performs better and Brynn has better technique. Her feet and legs are amazing. Their group dance was one of my favorites that they have done. It was just really, really pretty. As an aside, if you think that Nia and Mack stand out in a bad way on TV, it's so much worse in person. It's obvious that neither is at the level of the other dancers. Re: Cathy's dance, It was dramatic, but I just think that it was too much. 

 

The results as shown on the show are what really happened; so no fudging there. 

[Darknight]

I think Maddie is turning into Brooke the lost girl who was once the star

[Gianthambeast]

Another signature Abby routine: rolling on the floor, girl turning in isolation, more rolling on the floor, girl turning in isolation...zzzz...

Edited March 11, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[tessa]

Actually I loved all the dances this week. Dancing in the Rain was beautiful but Cathy was right - the original girls are again backup for Maddie. I loved the Apples routine - very dynamic and entertaining - I really thought it would take first.

 

I googled Dancing in the Rain as I wanted to see the full routine - didn't find that one but I did find that the girls did this at the Jump competition 3 wks ago - minus Brynn ( will we ever see her again ) and with different costumes. But their final placement was much different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVfDBa3jRlg

 

After seeing the previews from next week - I kind of understand why the girls were the way they were in the meet and greet video. Although I don't feel peer to peer critique is wrong - having the instructor giving those critiques anonymously is a better way to go in my opinion.

 

I still hate Abby's boasting about her previous students. She was their teacher and maybe mentor but if it wasn't for the student's confidence, drive and talent - they wouldn't be where they were today. My dance teacher was happy when her students succeeded but knew their success was not only due to her teaching. People who boast like that - look to me like they lack confidence - that they would never stand out to people on their own accomplishments and successes.

[sofiah]

It was funny to hear Abby refer to Maddie as not having the legs and the feet and the flexibility, and to say that her training has suffered this year. I don't think I've ever heard her be so critical.   I actually think it is a good thing Maddie doesn't have that crazy flexibility some of the girls have because I find that when they do Abby either pigeon holes them as acro dancers, or gives them silly tricks to do that show off nothing but flexibility.  Abby's like a little kid in a candy shop... if she knows the kid has the flexibility for a certain trick its like she just has to put it in.  Brynn's solo was great, I think, but there was an element of that in it.  And even though I still don't like Abby's choreography, I thought Maddie's dancing looked really, really good in her solo - she looks like she is growing up a bit and developing some more muscle tone.   She's also relying less on tricks.  

 

Also funny to hear Abby talk about Brynn being "a diamond in the rough" who is "green" at competitions, etc.  Girl may be shy and quiet (when she is offstage - she seemed to really transform on stage!), but she is still the current mini Best Dancer of the Dance Awards and has spent many weekends so far this year touring with 24/7, Nuvo and Jump.  Onstage. Assisting choreographers.  Abby straight up just poached one of the acknowledged current best mini dancers in the country, and is trying to act like she discovered her or something.  

Edited March 11, 2015 by sofiah

[allonsyalice]

^^^ amazing.

This show just gets more ridiculous and more ridiculous. (if I weren't at school, I would be taking a shot every time Abby says "the grammys"

also, it's like...Abby will only really like Brynn until she gets bored or, god forbid, Brynn messes up somehow. The girl is quite adorable though. 

Also, this show needs to stop trying to make Cathy happen. Please. so four seasons ago. 

[iluvobx]

Sounds like Maddie is turning on Abby and starting to leave Abby in the dust.  What I really hated was Maddie's TH where she talked about Nia and Holly.  That should never have happened.  Sounded very very scripted.

Kiss Holly & Nia goodbye.  They are being kicked to the curb like Kelly and Christi.  I wonder what would happen if Holly pulled Nia from the show?  Sue her for breaking the contract?  Geez, she could join the lawsuit with Kelly and her girls.

Go AWAY Cathy!  Go AWAY!  Your antics would not be tolerated in the real world.

Actually, this whole show can Go AWAY!

[tessa]

Sofiah - I also found it strange for Abby to be idolizing someone other than her precious Maddie. Abby wanted a star - Abby is her supposed manager - than Abby got what she wanted and as manager could and should make sure that Maddie's opportunities do not overshadow her training. Something has got to give though - do you toss aside opportunities presented to you for all your hard work where more doors may open or do you close your eyes and continue on training? I don't think Maddie's training has suffered that much - in fact it may have improved. She's had the chance to show herself through the choreography of others and any opportunities she has had have included lots of hard work.

 

Chloe has always been my favorite - but Maddie always has and continues to work hard. She's growing by leaps and bonds by what DM has presented to us in the past and what we see she's capable of now. I don't know whether it's the opportunities or the fact that she's older and maturing - but I think she sees that although she has Abby to thank for opening the door - she's secured other opportunities herself.

 

Also - if next week - is any indication of the rest of the season, I see Holly & Nia leaving the ALDC and maybe the last year of Dance Moms. After the 1st year - many viewers were turned off by the change in Abby and her demeanor. Then Christy, Kelly and the girls left - along with them left their fans. Nia still has a big fan base - if she goes - I don't know if the show will survive.

 

I'm also surprised with Jill. Kendall and Chloe were kind of battling it for with who would be 2nd chair to Maddie if she weren't available. Then Chloe left and Kalani arrives, followed now by Brynn - Kendall is now relegated again to background dancer.

[Darknight]

I think Abby is mad that she isn't Maddie's manager. She didn't get Maddie the Sia video or any other opportunities it came with it. Sia did. Now that Melissa and Maddie aren't as invested in Abby like they were Abby's moving on to someone else. Brynn is way ahead of these girls. But that's Abby's fault Maddie doesn't have training. Abby just picks one thing a dancer is good at, sticks with it, burns them out then moves on.

[cali1981]

I was very impressed with Maddie's solo.  Whatever else she is or isn't, the kid can perform and has real stage presence.  I didn't think that Brynn's solo was quite on the same level but that girl's extensions are something else.  She is very much like Kalani in that way.  They can pull off moves that look like the famous Beillmann spin in figure skating (kind of an illusion move) and look great doing it.  I thought that Kathy's group dance was a hot mess. The staging overwhelmed the dancing at times and the gold drape was a distraction.  Kathy is almost a borderline psychotic at times.  This nonsense on the part of Kathy and Abby about some kind of a firewall having to exist between their moms is insane.  Be competitive, sure, but lose any sense of civility or basic humanity, nope.  Lucas is a pain in the ass at times but he's way better off being away from Kathy, Abby and the whole crazy clown car that is Dance Moms.

[Clemgo3165]

Haven't seen anything but the Candy Apples dance yet, but I thought it was a mess too. The focus was on the dress rather than the dancing. So while it was surely dramatic, there really wasn't much meat to it.

[Alapaki]

Abby is her supposed manager - than Abby got what she wanted and as manager could and should make sure that Maddie's opportunities do not overshadow her training. Something has got to give though - do you toss aside opportunities presented to you for all your hard work where more doors may open or do you close your eyes and continue on training?

 

 

I think Abby is mad that she isn't Maddie's manager.

 

 

I think Darknight comment is correct.  I highly doubt that Abby is Maddie's actual manager, agent, or anything else.  Abby wants to take credit (and presumably a percentage fee) for Maddie's success, and it wouldn't surprise me if Abby takes some pathetic legal steps to try to do that.

 

As much as I'd despite any more of Melissa and her weird facial tics, I almost hope that Lifetime gives Maddie her own show and kicks Abby to the curb.  

[Rhondinella]

I love the scenes where Cathy is going on and on to her dancers about how much she hates Abby Lee and ALDC and the dancers (and usually the parents) obviously couldn't care less.  The kids are probably thinking: "Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah, can I please dance now?"  The parents are thinking: "I'm paying HOW much per hour to listen to this loon go all Mean Girl?"

[CoolMom]

I also love how Cathy goes on and on about Abby getting dancers from other studios.  NONE of her studio dancers are on her team, they are all from different studios and she hires choreographers and slaps a "Candy Apples" label on the whole thing.  I know Abby doesn't choreograph her dances but at least some of the girls are from her studio and I think for the most part so is the choreographer.

[KaveDweller]

I love the scenes where Cathy is going on and on to her dancers about how much she hates Abby Lee and ALDC and the dancers (and usually the parents) obviously couldn't care less.  The kids are probably thinking: "Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah, can I please dance now?"  The parents are thinking: "I'm paying HOW much per hour to listen to this loon go all Mean Girl?"

 

I thought it was silly when Cathy started complaining about that one mom talking to the ALDC. When Cathy had spent like the whole episode going over to talk to them.

 

I'm really over this show.

[cali1981]

 

 

As much as I'd despite any more of Melissa and her weird facial tics, I almost hope that Lifetime gives Maddie her own show and kicks Abby to the curb.  

Good lord, for Maddie's sake that should be that last thing that anyone wants.  The show about that brat Asia was horrendous. More singular exposure at this age would do Maddie more harm than good, especially with that horse's ass of a mother she has.  Melissa's ability to make choices that would not harm her daughter is seriously in doubt.  Then there's the impact on Mckenzie to consider.

[Gianthambeast]

It was funny to hear Abby refer to Maddie as not having the legs and the feet and the flexibility, and to say that her training has suffered this year. I don't think I've ever heard her be so critical. 

I thought this was hilarious, I mean what the hell has Abby been doing all these years? What does it say about the kind of dance training that ABBY provides if Maddi doesn't have good feetflexibility, or beautiful extensions? I guess she's admitting that she sucks as a teacher?

Edited March 12, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[Darknight]

Why do these kids need a publicist?

[Lemons]

I thought this was hilarious, I mean what the hell has Abby been doing all these years? What does it say about the kind of dance training that ABBY provides if Maddi doesn't have good feetflexibility, or beautiful extensions? I guess she's admitting that she sucks as a teacher?

I think she was saying that the other girl had more natural flexibility than Maddie.  There's nothing a teacher can do about that.  It takes more than extreme flexibility to be a talented dancer.  Plus the girl is built like an 8 year old. 

[dmeets]

I think Jill pretty much had it nailed -- Abby was hyping up Brynn only so that it would make Maddie look even better when she beat her.

 

Not sure why the show felt an exit storyline was needed for Lucas. He could have just stopped showing up with barely a mention, like Zach. But wow, Lucas sure did let it out how he felt about the show. Glad though that he refused his mother's request to tell Cathy off in person. I suspect his rebellious teen years aren't going be too pleasant for mom -- can't say I feel bad for her at all.

[Absolom]

More not so hot ratings:  1.474 M viewers and a .5 rating.

[sofiah]

I think she was saying that the other girl had more natural flexibility than Maddie.  There's nothing a teacher can do about that.  It takes more than extreme flexibility to be a talented dancer.  Plus the girl is built like an 8 year old. 

 

Yeah I think thats what Abby was referring to as well - natural flexibility, plus long limbs and good feet, etc.  Doesn't matter if Brynn looks 8 or 14, its the proportions of her torso to her legs.  She's got long legs, and that helps her extensions look better.   Kalani is similar, she may have gone through puberty and no longer looks like a little kid - but her extensions are still amazing.

 

However, Abby must realize that what Brynn has is not solely "natural" ability.  Maddie is a better performer and more dynamic on stage, but for someone who is almost a full year younger then Maddie, Brynn also sometimes displays a bit more strength and control and that is due to Brynn's training, her teacher, her studio, etc.   

 

ETA: here's a little video of the two girls doing the same combo, side by side:

 

https://youtu.be/MJL5hUjnbOo

 

two beautiful dancers ... not Abby choreography! 

Edited March 12, 2015 by sofiah

[Absolom]

There made obvious are so many of my critiques of Maddie's dancing over the years.  

[cali1981]

I don't think Abby is her manager according to their website: http://www.ziegler-girls.com/contact/ I think that's BS for the show.

Oh yeah. Maddie is with The William Morris and Rothman Andres.  The chances of Abby actually being her "manager" are about the same as they are for my cat becoming my next US Senator.  Check that, my cat being called Senator Molly has better odds in its favor.

Edited March 12, 2015 by cali1981

[Lemons]

Yeah I think thats what Abby was referring to as well - natural flexibility, plus long limbs and good feet, etc.  Doesn't matter if Brynn looks 8 or 14, its the proportions of her torso to her legs.  She's got long legs, and that helps her extensions look better.   Kalani is similar, she may have gone through puberty and no longer looks like a little kid - but her extensions are still amazing.

 

two beautiful dancers ... not Abby choreography! 

 

Right before puberty the legs grow before the torso, that's why a lot of kids look like they are all legs.  All you have to do is look at their mothers to know that they aren't all going to keep those same skinny frames. Proportions won't change too much, but hips, butts and boobs will change the look.

[NextIteration]

Brynn also sometimes displays a bit more strength and control and that is due to Brynn's training, her teacher, her studio, etc.   

 

ETA: here's a little video of the two girls doing the same combo, side by side:

 

https://youtu.be/MJL5hUjnbOo

 

two beautiful dancers ... not Abby choreography! 

 

I think Brynn in this video displays a lot more control, it's really hard to know for sure from a short bootie camp clip - since generally they learn the choreo quickly and then go in groups.  Maybe we'll get to see the two do a duet before the season is over - that would give more clarity to the differences between them.

[realdancemom]

Brynn shows more control and flexibility but I think Maddie is a better mover in that boot camp clip.  From the little bit that they showed of the solos on the show, I thought Maddie won.  She is a better performer.  Brynn's solo looked like a bunch of tricks and moves that showed her flexibility.  But she hardly had any emotion and I didn't like her movement in between the tricks.

 

Didn't like the choreography for Cathy's dance.  The big dress got in the way and it overshadowed the dancing.

 

I'm surprised that Nia was a champion during the summer.  A lot of girls must not have done the compeition then.  She is a sweet girl and shows fierce attitude during jazz dances.  However, her legs are always bent, her feet are terrible, she's usually off beat, and she's a heavy dancer.  Kendall is only a little better but I have seen a little improvement from her.  Abbe has Mackenzie pigeon holed into cute acro routines which won't be impressive as she gets older.  

[sofiah]

Right before puberty the legs grow before the torso, that's why a lot of kids look like they are all legs.  All you have to do is look at their mothers to know that they aren't all going to keep those same skinny frames. Proportions won't change too much, but hips, butts and boobs will change the look.

 

Thats true, but you can certainly get an idea.  

 

I think Brynn in this video displays a lot more control, it's really hard to know for sure from a short bootie camp clip - since generally they learn the choreo quickly and then go in groups.  Maybe we'll get to see the two do a duet before the season is over - that would give more clarity to the differences between them.

 

 

Yeah I agree - its really short! I think Brynn has a slight advantage as well in the sense that this is very typical Alexa Moffett choreography that Brynn is very used to, whereas the stuff Abby/Gianna usually give Maddie is very different.  But its the only thing I could find of them both dancing together! Maybe Brynn will be back... a duet would be fun to watch. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by sofiah

[Lemons]

Thats true, but you can certainly get an idea.  

 

 

 

Yeah I agree - its really short! I think Brynn has a slight advantage as well in the sense that this is very typical Alexa Moffett choreography that Brynn is very used to, whereas the stuff Abby/Gianna usually give Maddie is very different.  But its the only thing I could find of them both dancing together! Maybe Brynn will be back... a duet would be fun to watch. 

 

In that video they had very similar bodies.  I knew which was Maddie because she has darker hair.  It looked like the other girl knew the choreography better, but otherwise it was typical class choreography.  Cute!

[NextIteration]

I'm surprised that Nia was a champion during the summer.  A lot of girls must not have done the compeition then.

 

National Title holder, which may or probably is not what you'd think of as the "champion", since it's this invitational Sheer Talent group.  Title is usually a separate entry, and at most competitions it isn't the highest scoring soloist necessarily, it can be, but there's no guarantee of that.

[realdancemom]

National Title holder, which may or probably is not what you'd think of as the "champion", since it's this invitational Sheer Talent group.  Title is usually a separate entry, and at most competitions it isn't the highest scoring soloist necessarily, it can be, but there's no guarantee of that.

My daughters haven't done competitions in a long time since they transferred to ballet studios.  I hate most competition choreography anyway.  Is National Title holder something like those separate competitions where people pay and get judged for most photogenic or something like a pageant where they could be judged for dancing, speech, and other things?  I can see Nia winning for something like that since I do think she's poised and I can see her giving a good speech. 

[NextIteration]

Is National Title holder something like those separate competitions where people pay and get judged for most photogenic or something like a pageant where they could be judged for dancing, speech, and other things?  I can see Nia winning for something like that since I do think she's poised and I can see her giving a good speech. 

 

It can be, yes.  It's dependent on the competition; even at the highest level of competitions, there are a couple that are extra fee and separately "judged".  I know I've mentioned in this forum before, but I used to tease my daughter and ask her if she wanted me to buy her a tiara.  I've been at comps where intermediate level won title, only because no elite dancer entered.

[KaveDweller]

Why do these kids need a publicist?

 

Their mothers are famewhoring vicariously through them.

[hqtextbook]

What do you guys thing about the whole Holly/Nia thing? I kind of thought Abby had a point when she said Holly is just teaching Nia to be bitter about everything and act like a victim...She looks miserable at this point. 

[tessa]

I actually don't think that Holly is teaching Nia to be bitter. I felt bad for Nia as I see the same look on her face as I saw on Chloe her last year. These kids are growing up and thinking for themselves now. They've endured years of belittling from Abby and it gets harder and harder to turn the other cheek. Nia and Abby actually had a wonderful relationship but Abby has strained that to keep the drama going.

[RedFire2000]

This season Nia  reminds me a lot of Brooke in the early seasons - she knows that Abby is going to be obnoxious to her, there's nothing she could do to change and she's just over it, she knows the shows is staged and her and her mother are the producers picks this season.

 

But again Nia is a teen now and no longer putting up with the BS. Just like brooke she's checked out because what's the point?

[WelcomeStranger]

 

Not sure why the show felt an exit storyline was needed for Lucas. He could have just stopped showing up with barely a mention, like Zach. But wow, Lucas sure did let it out how he felt about the show. Glad though that he refused his mother's request to tell Cathy off in person. I suspect his rebellious teen years aren't going be too pleasant for mom -- can't say I feel bad for her at all.

I just assumed Lucas's mom being all nicey-nicey to the ALDC was a producer set-up to bring Lucas over to Abby. But someone more in the dance world loop would know better if Lucas has suddenly started showing up w/ the ALDC at subsequent competitions.

 

Many thanks to tessa for posting the "real version" of Dancing in the Rain. Those costumes are SO much more simple and appropriate to the mood of the dance. It was refreshing to see Abby Lee dancers not wearing some fancy, sparkly, distracting piece on their heads.

[realdancemom]

Nia does look over it just like Brooke did.  I also think that Holly talked to Nia and said that she was the chosen victim for this season since Chloe is gone.  I'm o.k. with that if Nia knows it's just for the show and it's not real. 

[Absolom]

Nia does know.  I must have posted that in a different thread.

[torus351]

Brynn has potential, even Maddie thinks so.

 

If Miss Abby thinks that all Brynn needs is experience, then why not let her stay and be a part of the ALDC?

 

I thought the Candy Apples team dance was quite good, but because of that horrible witch Cathy, i'm glad they didn't win.

 

Good to see Miss Abby looking happy at the end of the episode.

[Loves2Dance]

Brynn has potential, even Maddie thinks so.

 

If Miss Abby thinks that all Brynn needs is experience, then why not let her stay and be a part of the ALDC?

 

I thought the Candy Apples team dance was quite good, but because of that horrible witch Cathy, i'm glad they didn't win.

 

Good to see Miss Abby looking happy at the end of the episode.

Brynn is the current reigning Mini Dancer for a very well known, well respect, prestiges organization. She also has a brother who is very sick with a family who can't not just drop everything to be at Abbys beck n call. Brynn doesn't need Abby Lee---Abby Lee needs Brynn. 

[Darknight]

Brynn is the current reigning Mini Dancer for a very well known, well respect, prestiges organization. She also has a brother who is very sick with a family who can't not just drop everything to be at Abbys beck n call. Brynn doesn't need Abby Lee---Abby Lee needs Brynn.

What's wrong with Brynn brother?

[Loves2Dance]

What's wrong with Brynn brother?

He has Type I diabetes and it's severe. Kira tried talking about it on the show a few episodes back and Abby cut her off. 

[trubellcurve]

Yes,  I remember that the Mother was answering a question directed at her and that was trying to answer,  then Abbey cut her off.   I   got the impression that it was more TBTP driven to keep that particular story low key for whatever reason ( probably because it would create more pity or attention to Brynn- and Brynn's story line is to kind of give completion to Maddie.   So having that story play more of a part could change the Maddie/Brynn dynamic).  I really don't know. 

 

Mainly,  that  was just my take on  the way that whole scene played out.   I could be totally wrong.  

[Loves2Dance]

It could also be that Kira ended it with, "She can't just drop everything and show up,' under her breath which makes Abby feel less important. Like, "How dare she not drop everything and come to me with her kid, does she not know who I am?" type mentality she always seems to have.