The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Constantinople]

Out of curiosity, do you think having the blood of the First Men is necessary in order for a character to be a warg? If so, isn't this a pretty similar concept?

I haven't really thought about it, and I'm not sure that I care, yet

 

So far the ability to warg/skinchange has been useful, but small beer compared to the Fields of Fire.  Of course, all bets are off if one of the Stark kids, including Jon, can skinchange into a dragon.

 

Also, I'm not sure that we've seen skinchanging as the means or justification for rule as we have with dragonriding.

[GreyBunny]

I don't think so.  The Targaryens have a bond with their dragons that seems to be limited to having an affinity for each other but it doesn't appear to be due to skinchanging.  Otherwise they wouldn't need dragon riders, all they would have to do was skinchange into a dragon and not have the risk of being killed in battle (or while trying to tame one) themselves.  

 

Since Jon has both First Men and Valyrian blood it'll be interesting to see how he interacts with a dragon, should he encounter one.

Edited November 8, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Holmbo]

As for why families would choose to practice incest rather than intermarrying among the other forty dragonriding families, my thought is that the blood magic of some families was stronger than others. It's pointed out that the Targaryens weren't among the most powerful dragonriding families so I think that probably has something to do with it. That being said it seems like there was some intermarriage it just wasn't nearly as common because they saw keeping the bloodlines pure as part of maintaining their power. Since a huge part of their power is dragons I think it makes sense that this ties into the blood purity thing.

 

I have another proposal for how the incest tradition could relate to the blood related dragonriding ability. What if it was started as a way to keep Valyrian blood out of the other nobel families? If every nobel family had the ability to ride dragons the Targaryens hold over power would be much weaker. Therefore the Targaryen's might not have dared marrying of their daughters to anyone but their own family. As the dragons grew weaker and eventually died out the purpose of the tradition was lost but it was still practiced.

Also on the note about Tyrion's parentage, since most posters seemed to disagree with your hope for A+J=T I will mention that I wouldn't be upset if it was true. I'd prefer if Tyrion was Tywin's son (mostly because it makes Tywin look stupid). But if Tyrion was indeed a Targaryen it could affect the plot in interesting ways and also the character development of Tyrion, if he where to find out. Tyrion always put so much of his self worth into that he is a Lannister and he has caused so much harm to himself and other for the family. I wonder how he would react if he found out he was not actually a Lannister. He wouldn't even be a nobel, just a nobelmans bastard.

Though I'm not buying that Tywin would have know he wasn't his. No way he would have kept him if he was a Targ bastard. He could have had suspicions but he couldn't know for sure since he probably slept continuously with his wife.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

I wonder how he would react if he found out he was not actually a Lannister.

 

 

Disbelief and hysterical laughter followed by a session of drunken brooding is my guess.

 

Tyrion always put so much of his self worth into that he is a Lannister and he has caused so much harm to himself and other for the family.

 

 

If the theory is true I actually think it'll help Tyrion with all of his emotional baggage when it comes to Tywin. 

 

No way he would have kept him if he was a Targ bastard.

 

 

I think his fear of being humiliated and laughed at might have stayed his hand. It also might have had to do with loyalty to Joanna. I'm not certain but I agree that Tywin likely didn't know for sure either way. 

 

What if it was started as a way to keep Valyrian blood out of the other nobel families?

 

 

In a way I can see this my only thing is you'd think that they'd be more reluctant to have affairs mistresses because the end result could be the same. I think it's also important to remember that the tradition was carried over from Valyria and that the other dragonriding families practiced incest as well. To me this suggests that either certain bloodlines were controlling certain dragons and/or some dragonriding blood was stronger than others and that's why they went to such extremes to keep the bloodlines pure. I can't think why else the valyrian dragonriding families weren't intermarrying with each other. 

 

Also, I'm not sure that we've seen skinchanging as the means or justification for rule as we have with dragonriding.

 

 

I'm only halfway through TWOIAF and haven't read the section on the North yet but weren't the Kings of Winterfell wargs in the past?

[Hecate7]

There's no problem with affairs or mistresses--those children don't inherit. The point of marrying siblings, was so that heirs would be PURE Targaryen, and retain all the genetic qualities, good and bad, of the Targaryen line, unmixed with other qualities. Only female chastity is relevant for this scenario. It's the same as all the other families, just taken one step further.

[Hecate7]

And that's pretty much the sort of press I was talking about. There's absolutely nothing wrong with standard tropes, in my view, as long as they're done well. Things don't become tropes if they don't work. Trying to be contrary and different is far more likely to backfire, as I think it has done with this series. Unfortunately, GRRM has mangled the characterisation and narrative of this story so much that I can't see any pairing developing over the last two books and having any sort of resonance or power. There's just no time to be devoted to it. I can't even see any actual climax to this series that feels satisfying.

 

If Dany hadn't wasted five books in Essos, then maybe she'd actually feel like a relevant character to me. As it is, she seems to be little more than a plot device to eventually get to dragons vs Others. And I don't see any way for it to turn out that won't be disappointing to me.

 

Pairings that didn't start in the first two books, are just not going to be interesting enough to carry the final books, unless they are between characters introduced in the first two books. I'm expecting Jon/Dany at the very end, but I won't be surprised to see Jon/Sansa, Tyrion/Dany, Tyrion/Sansa revisited, or Gendry/Sansa. I'm expecting Shireen to be toast, but it would be very charming to instead have Jon Snow legitimized by Stannis, revealed as the Targaryen heir, and married to Shireen.

 

The most likely outcome, though, will be either a coup that ends with Littlfinger owning the seven kingdoms, or a complete rebellion that changes the structure of the government completely.

[Constantinople]

The most likely outcome, though, will be either a coup that ends with Littlfinger owning the seven kingdoms

Isn't being Lord Harrenhal supposed to be bad luck, even if you never take-up residence?

I'm hoping that takes care of Littlefinger at some point.

 

or a complete rebellion that changes the structure of the government completely.

[mac123x]

On a slightly more serious note, don't the Baratheons have Targaryen blood? So couldn't Stannis, Shireen or one of Robert's bastards quality as potential dragon riders? (I'm not sure how that would happen given Daenerys's attitude about Baratheons, but theoretically it would be possible)

 

I'm kind of thinking that Targaryen blood might be necessary but not sufficient.  IIRC, Barristan Selmy told Dany a story about her parents in which a woods witch propesied that The Prince That Was Promised would come from the marriage of Aerys & Rhaella.  The only surviving decendants of that union are Dany and Jon (most likely).  Since the dragon has three heads, we'd need a third:

 

1.  Fake Aegon is actually Real Aegon

2.  Tyrion is Aerys's bastard and somehow that counts

3.  Yet another undisclosed secret Targaryen bastard, either Rhaegar's or Viserys's secret love child.  

4.  Dany has a hidden twin sister working in a brothel in Lys. 

 

Number 1 would be boring.

 

Number 2, I guess GRRM could quibble on that prophecy:  because Aerys was forced to marry his sister whom he didn't love, he wound up raping Joanna.  Technically, Aerys & Rhaella's marriage "caused" Tyrion's birth.  It'd be a prophecy twist, but one that strains credulity.

 

Number 3 would be really hack writing, like introducing the killer in the last 15 minutes of an Agatha Christie movie.  GRRM is already in dangerous territory with Aegon being introduced so late;  this would be even worse.

 

Number 4 is fan-ficcy.

[Notwisconsin]

They're going to run out of book before the end of the season. I remember there were novelizations of some of the James Bond Movies (after Fleming died, they pretty much gave up on his plots), so maybe someone else would do an alternate version of Ice and Fire based on the TV show....

[Advance35]

Yeah, I think this season is the end of the line in terms of the show having book material for a majority of the characters on canvas.   

 

Natalie Dormer gave an interview recently (Conan, I believe) where she say's she doesn't know what's going to happen to her character.   She gave the distinct impression that Season 5 will end Kings Landing with the pending Queen Trials by the Faith.   I notice when she and the host were talking about way's Margaery Tyrell could potentially bite it, she said beheading....."Been there, done that".    I'm back to thinking Margaery will win her trial somehow.   I just can't see her being executed.   WAY to Anne Boelyn.

[Hecate7]

I'm not sure what would be wrong with her fate resembling that of Anne Boleyn. It's not like Anne was the only person in history, or even in her own family, to suffer that fate.

 

Either she'll die because we don't quite hate Cersei enough yet, or she'll live because there's something godawful we'll find out about her that will make us wish they'd killed her.

[Constantinople]

I'm not sure what would be wrong with her fate resembling that of Anne Boleyn. It's not like Anne was the only person in history, or even in her own family, to suffer that fate.

Not many queens, though.

Offhand I can think of

1. Anne Boleyn

2. Catherine Howard

3. Lady Jane Grey

4. Mary, Queen of Scots

5. Marie Antoinette

6. Alexandra, Empress consort of Nicholas II

though I imagine there are others.

The last 4 are't comparable to Margaery (so far).

Leaving aside the degree of their participation, and whether Jane Grey should be considered a queen, Jane Grey and Mary, Queen of Scots were executed for trying to overthrow the "legitimate" monarch (i.e., the winner) and rule in their own right. They weren't Queen Consorts executed for adultery, but alternative Queen Regnants.

Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra were executed by the revolutionary regimes that replaced them. Plus, neither are English or plausibly part English, or from medieval time period (to the extent that it matters that Game of Thrones was inspired, in part, by the Wars of the Roses).

Only Anne & Catherine were the only two queen consorts executed for adultery, or "treason" that consisted of adultery in part.

In her appearance, behavior and intellectual ability, Margaery seems much more similar to Anne than Catherine (for that matter, Anne had a trial, I don't think Catherine did).

So it would be a bit tedious, in my opinion, if Margaery were beheaded after being found guilty at trial for committing adulterty, particularly since Natalie Dormer's already played Anne.

[Brn2bwild]

Take this for what it's worth: recent reports state that the new Star Wars trailer has gotten Martin excited and ready to finish TWOW in 2015.

[benteen]

I doubt that myself but if true, all I have to say is "That's all it took?"

[Winnief]

LOL!

 

Though, even if the book does come out in 2015 the show increasingly will be doing its own thing.  No way will they be including Dany's anticipated 800 page long spiritual journey through the Dothraki sea.  They're gonna want to get her started on the way to Westeros by Season 6. 

[Kadlin Mormont]

If seeing Darth Vader in Disney on Ice gets GRRM to write faster, more power to him!

[ElizaD]

GRRM in November:

 

He explains the inspiration behind the "Martyr" donation level of the Prizeo campaign and how he plans to kill off the three donors in upcoming installments of his A Song of Ice and Fire series....

Though he believes he could have raised more money for the charities by including more in-book deaths, Martin decided to draw the line at three so it wouldn't get intrusive to book readers. He's currently in contact with each of the winners, figuring out how to discreetly work them into the plot.

"We're going back and forth, I've started emailing them," Martin tells me. "I'm still in the middle of the book, so it'll be some time before I write the scenes in which they die."

 

2011: ADWD. 2014: middle of TWOW. If he manages to complete the second half of the book in 2015, I'll be stunned.

 

That relationship is seen time and again in Martin's series, and it's one that will Martin says will continue as the last two books are eventually released. Arya's wolf, Nymeria, in particular, will play an important role.

"You know, I don't like to give things away." says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. "But you don't hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it."

 

I'd love to read about Nymeria's pack. Before 2017, hopefully. I don't know if the show will bother to include it; they might just have an Arya/Nymeria reunion without spending money on extra wolves.

[Avaleigh]

Ever since I read the theory that Ghost and Nymeria will mate I've kind of been hoping that we'd hear about Nymeria and her pack but never actually see them again. So much for that hope.

I think we'll be lucky if we get it in 2016.

They're going to run out of book before the end of the season. I remember there were novelizations of some of the James Bond Movies (after Fleming died, they pretty much gave up on his plots), so maybe someone else would do an alternate version of Ice and Fire based on the TV show....

I'd love it if HBO would do a prequel series after all is said and done. The first Dance with Dragons, Robert's Rebellion, the story of Aegon I and his sisters , or even one of the Blackfyre rebellions--any of these could be worth doing as a single stand alone season.

If a series like Spartacus can get a prequel is it that farfetched for the more successful GoT to maybe eventually get one?

[Advance35]

Did anyone read the recent interview with, Elio Garcia Jr. and Linda Antonsson, I believe they were assisting GRRM with his latest book, the Game of Thrones Companion, with the illustrations.    Apparently they were asked what would inspire future artist in the upcoming novel "The Winds of Winter", and the reply was that some very "interesting things" will be happening in the Vale of Arryn.

 

Now Sansa's the POV character for that Kingdom at present, does this mean that war will come to the Vale.   Sansa's chapter for ADWD was pushed back because it would kick off a new storyline.   An event involving Sansa is going to be controversial.   I'm just trying to put together clues because I'm more curious than ever about what's happening with Sansa.

[jjjmoss]

Though GoT is surely a much more expensive show, and I have a feeling D&D will be too exhausted from their years on this show to want to jump on into another one. Especially given that there wouldn't be much source material to directly adapt. So HBO would have to get a new writer team that understood GoT/ASOIAF really well, and could create that atmosphere without the help of a step-by-step guide from the original author.

[Holmbo]

I think it's very likely that there will be some kind of prequel spinoff of this show. D&D might want to move on to other things but I'm sure there'd be lots of other writers that would want to do say a season of Roberts rebellion.

[Constantinople]

Though GoT is surely a much more expensive show, and I have a feeling D&D will be too exhausted from their years on this show to want to jump on into another one. Especially given that there wouldn't be much source material to directly adapt. So HBO would have to get a new writer team that understood GoT/ASOIAF really well, and could create that atmosphere without the help of a step-by-step guide from the original author.

 

Westeros/Essos don't seem to change that much, so the GOT series and the books provide a good template for atmosphere.  Characterization and plotting is another matter.

 

Presumably a prequel wouldn't have dragons or Walkers, so that might help make it a prequel a little less expensive.

[Brn2bwild]

Eh, so much for the Star Wars theory.  From Martin's blog:

 

And while I am debunking rumors, let me also say that this story about me being inspired to finsh WINDS by STAR WARS is also utter bullshit, and I have NO idea where that one came from.  (I liked the first two STAR WARS movies, the third not so much, the prequels not at all, and the trailer for the new one had no impact on me one way or the other, and let's face it, even the best of 'em is no FORBIDDEN PLANET.  Robby is my robot ideal, not C3PO or R2D2).  Made up out of whole cloth, so far as I know.

It really stuns me how widely the STAR WARS thing has been disseminated.  Truly, internet journalism is an oxymoron.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Brn2bwild

[Hecate7]

Because that strength seems to be tied to a sociopathic detachment that has only gotten worse over time, not better.

Of course, that means she's already a shell. She's completely empty inside, beneath a spunky tomboy veneer. No one and nothing matters to her, except her revenge, and she wouldn't know what to do if it did.

[Hanahope]

I think it's very likely that there will be some kind of prequel spinoff of this show. D&D might want to move on to other things but I'm sure there'd be lots of other writers that would want to do say a season of Roberts rebellion.

 

There's also Dunk and Egg, which has source material already.

[WearyTraveler]

There's also Dunk and Egg, which has source material already.

Yeah, there's all sort of material on the events before the story we started with, just not much on the future :-(

[Avaleigh]

I would pay good money to see a series on the blacks vs. the greens. I'd like to see that even more than Robert's Rebellion. My third choice is definitely a series about Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. Lots of good stuff there for a stand alone single season. 

 

The first dance with dragons could easily be told over two or three seasons IMO. Robert's Rebellion should be able to be done in a single season. 

 

I honestly hope HBO ends up wanting to do one of these. There's too much potential here for them to not want to jump on it. And surely they'll want a GoT replacement when the time comes.

 

*ahem* Paul Bettany and Alexander Skarsgaard for Targaryens please! Imagine Skarsgaard as Prince Daemon or Rhaegar? I don't care if it's a fangurly choice, that shit sounds like it would be awesome. 

[Holmbo]

Some posters on IMDb made some joke post that really made me laugh out loud in this thread. They are using lines from the books and show to make some statement about the book to show adaption. Thought I'd share it here because not a single person I know in real life would get it :D

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/board/nest/238653587?p=2&d=238697388#238697388

Edited January 5, 2015 by Holmbo

[Winnief]

Thanks for the link! That was hysterical.  My favorite bit was "Any man who must say I am the author is no true author."

 

In all seriousness Martin *did* say that if he died without finishing the series he'd leave behind a *brief* outline of what was supposed to happen for final events but he deliberately wouldn't be too detailed since he never wanted the books to be written by anyone but himself.

 

So given his current pace of writing, yeah it does look like the show is all we're ever going to get.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Winnief

[Avaleigh]

In all seriousness Martin *did* say that if he died without finishing the series he'd leave behind a *brief* outline of what was supposed to happen for final events but he deliberately wouldn't be too detailed since he never wanted the books to be written by anyone but himself.

 

 

At least he's willing to do this. I'd previously been under the impression that his attitude was going to be "the hell with that" as far as leaving anything so I'm glad to know that we'll get at least get something even if it only turns out to be a brief outline. Honestly though if for some reason it starts to look like he won't be able to complete the final book, I think it would be nice/"fair" if he agreed to answer say 50 questions regarding ASOIAF and ask fans to submit their selections. Then he could answer questions about the most asked about theories and characters. Fifty questions probably isn't enough but I feel like that would cover the basics for most people. When I think of the top questions I have I'd say only twelve or so that would really annoy me not to ever get a conclusion on. I also think that several of my top questions might be answered in TWoW anyway. 

 

If I had to hazard a guess at what would be included I'd think it would/should be--

Iron Throne Winner (and a list of anyone else who sat the throne however briefly in between Tommen and the winner.)

AA/PWWP 

The Great Other and answering whether or not the Others were defeated and how long it took/what shape Westeros is in as a result of everything

Which Stark ends up with Winterfell (I'm sure he'd mention the fates of the surviving Starks including Benjen.)

The fates of the remaining POVs plus Littlefinger, Varys, Mance, Sandor, and Roose. This would ideally cover stuff like R+L=J, Melisandre's true purpose, how Maggy's prophecy ends up coming true, the dragon has three heads, the nature of Littlefinger's incredibly gruesome death, etc.

 

I imagine though that characters like Quaithe, Ashara Dayne, Shiera Seastar, Septa Mordane, Syrio Forel, the kindly man, Aurane Waters, Shae, Taena, Illyrio, etc. I think that they'll probably remain mysterious in a scenario where we're given a brief outline. 

[Holmbo]

Thanks for the link! That was hysterical.  My favorite bit was "Any man who must say I am the author is no true author."

I like that one too. My other favorite is the one that started the whole thing "They can live in D&D's new world or they can die in their old one."

Imagining someone saying that in the same tone as Dany makes me laugh.

[Fable]

Love the IMDb link. 

 

My favorite was "if you think the books will have an ending, you haven't been paying attention." 

 

No truer words have been uttered! 

[benteen]

The theory that Coldhands is Benjen Stark has been officially debunked.

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/01/09/george-r-r-martins-original-dance-dragons-manuscript-debunks-popular-fan-theory/

[Haleth]

That would have been a satisfying reveal for readers, but having him NOT be Benjen is actually more of a surprise.  I think the fact that Bran didn't immediately recognize him as Uncle Ben made it clear that he was a stranger.  

[Avaleigh]

I had a theory that Benjen would resurface at Hardhome. And that he'd be...different. Not having any mention of Benjen on the show since the first season though makes me think that Benjen might only come into the story again in a minor way.

[benteen]

Benjen might just be one of those characters who just disappears.  You don't see a lot of that from GRRM (Jeyne Poole returned for instance) but he might be it.  But Benjen is a Stark, the last surviving offspring of Rickard Stark.  I don't want his character to just go away, at least without a definitive explanation. 

 

I did laugh at GRRM writing a big NO in red in response to his editor's speculation.  Thought that was funny and it's probably sadly indicative of their relationship as editor and writer.

Edited January 10, 2015 by benteen

[Hanahope]

So nothing new on when the next book will finally come out?  Sometimes I wonder if he's putting things off as long as possible because no one will care about him anymore once he finishes.

[benteen]

I hear you, Hanahope.

[GreyBunny]

So nothing new on when the next book will finally come out?  Sometimes I wonder if he's putting things off as long as possible because no one will care about him anymore once he finishes.

 

Beyond that it won't appear in 2015 - nope.

 

If you think the books will have an ending, you haven't been paying attention.

 

That one cracked me up the most.  Sadly, those words are probably prophetic.  I can imagine Martin getting fed up and not finishing as a deliberate FUCK YOU to everyone.

[Hecate7]

I had a theory that Benjen would resurface at Hardhome. And that he'd be...different. Not having any mention of Benjen on the show since the first season though makes me think that Benjen might only come into the story again in a minor way.

 

I was an adherent of the "Benjen is Coldhands" theory, but now I believe Coldhands is probably the Night King or some other character I care not one bit about.

 

Benjen is either the hooded man at Winterfell, or he's just dead and we'll never find out what happened. Most likely the latter. And no, it's not a surprise, it's not better writing. It's just indifference.

So nothing new on when the next book will finally come out?  Sometimes I wonder if he's putting things off as long as possible because no one will care about him anymore once he finishes.

I think he does benefit from drawing it out like this.

[Winnief]

Well it is possible that Benjen is/was intended to be part of the Big Reveal.  But now I'm thinking this will be just another plot thread that Martin never wraps up.

[GreyBunny]

I had hoped Benjen was not Coldhands, Bran didn't recognize him and it had been indicated that he had been dead for a very long time.  I could buy that maybe he's the Night's King but I don't want the books to fall into Star Wars Small Universe Syndrome where everyone is related or disguised as one another.  I prefer authors keep secret identities to a minimum, otherwise the device loses its punch.

[Maximum Taco]

I was an adherent of the "Benjen is Coldhands" theory, but now I believe Coldhands is probably the Night King or some other character I care not one bit about.

 

Benjen is either the hooded man at Winterfell, or he's just dead and we'll never find out what happened. Most likely the latter. And no, it's not a surprise, it's not better writing. It's just indifference.

I think he does benefit from drawing it out like this.

 

I'm hoping we don't get any confirmation.

 

It makes it seem more real, sometimes people just die, and sometimes people go out into the northern wilds and don't come back.

 

Also Benjen isn't all that important a character. His whole purpose (as far as I can tell) was to introduce the Night's Watch and threat of the White Walkers. He did that fine. You're right, it's not better writing, but it's also not necessarily bad writing to just drop him. Every named character doesn't need to have their storyline all wrapped up in a neat bow, some characters just fade into the woodwork, Benjen might be one of those. I'm not gonna cry foul because Edric Dayne doesn't show up again, he was a colour character too, whose purpose was to explore the "Who is Jon Snow's Mother?" mystery a bit further, he did that.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Brn2bwild]

Although given that much is made of the tragedies that befall the Starks, and the devouring of the male line, it seems odd that more people aren't at least thinking about Benjen.  He rarely comes up in anyone's thoughts, even Jon Snow's.

[Hecate7]

The problem is that NONE of the characters are important anymore. "Anyone can die" has been taken just that little step too far, and there have been SO many dropped plot points that it's hard to imagine that a single one of the remaining ones will be resolved, or that if some of them are, that they'll be relevant to any of the characters I care about or resolve in any sort of satisfying way.

 

In this story, it's really silly to want secret identities "kept to a minimum." Let's see.....we have Arya, who's just one big secret identity and really doesn't exist anymore as Arya, but is just dozens of masks wrapped around a core of hate. We have Sansa, who is no longer Sansa but rather Alayne Stone, the bastard daughter of Baelish who is about to most likely be raped and affianced to her "father," and live that way henceforward. We have Tyrion who is no longer Tyrion and probably never will be again. Bran's a tree, Rickon's been eaten by cannibals or will be a dropped plotline, Theon is now named Reek, and Catelyn Stark is Lady Stoneheart. Given the story so far, I think if there's a Stark left who isn't running around under a fake name, that will be rectified shortly, either by killing them off or by disguising them intriguingly and then forgetting all about it.

 

Meanwhile there's Septa Lemore whom I'm pretty sure isn't, Aegon who probably isn't, Barristan Selmy who isn't anymore. Melisandre is not a person--she's a thousand years old. R + L = J, but no one will ever find out and nobody cares. Brienne of Tarth is most likely a zombie of some sort, The Hound is living under some other name, and The Mountain is probably Frankengregor. I think at this point in the story the only people who are still who they are, are Cersei, Tommen, Jaime, and Danaerys. Pretty much everyone else is either disguised for their own personal safety, wildly mistaken about their own identity, zombified,

 

I think it's a little late to worry about having "too many" secret identities.

[ElizaD]

The problem is that NONE of the characters are important anymore. "Anyone can die" has been taken just that little step too far, and there have been SO many dropped plot points that it's hard to imagine that a single one of the remaining ones will be resolved, or that if some of them are, that they'll be relevant to any of the characters I care about or resolve in any sort of satisfying way.

 

I think it says a lot that ASOIAF has gone from Ned's death and the Red Wedding to endless theories about how Jon will be resurrected. I've never run into anyone who truly believed that Jon's story was over and he died for good at the end of ADWD. The characters are important but they aren't doing important things, which means that AFFC/ADWD felt like I was spending time with POVs who couldn't be killed off but were stuck going in circles and being powerless puppets of fate/non-POVs instead of moving the plot forward with choices and their consequences; the new POVs who could die were such redshirts and examples of worldbuilding bloat that I didn't feel any tension in their chapters. The fake identities and deaths add to the powerlessness. The Stark kids are in training mode, but I wish that training could involve more doing, for the same reason that I wish Dany would have come to Westeros in ASOS: making decisions, screwing up and learning from your mistakes is more exciting and leads to more credible growth if it takes place on the main stage before the audience you have to impress rather than in an isolated hall where no one knows who you are or sees what you're doing. A bit of isolation would be fine IMO if it was just Arya and Bran doing their secret training with their magic mentors while Dany, Sansa and Tyrion were more involved with Westerosi politics, but of the characters who've been established as the most important to the narrative and endgame (Starks/Dany/Tyrion) only Jon is actively participating in either the war for the throne or the fight against the Others. And even Jon's participation consists of planning for the inevitable attack rather than facing it. ADWD had highs (Theon, Davos) never reached by Robert Jordan's infamous stall in Crossroads of Twilight, but I'm having flashbacks to how the Wheel of Time would turn and turn without progressing the plot.

 

Right now, it's like there's a clash between soap and epic in ASOIAF. Soaps move at a glacial pace and are all about character moments/interaction, which ASOIAF still does well (Davos and Manderly, Theon and his name), but ASOIAF also began by setting up two huge plot events in the return of the Others and the dragons. My frustration over the delay in getting to the epic conflicts that were promised keeps me from enjoying the current rambling pace as a soap that can take all the time in the world before the big reveal that rearranges character relationships.

[FurryFury]

Melisandre is not a person--she's a thousand years old.

 

While I agree with the gist of your comment, I have to disagree with that. First, it's unclear how old Melisandre really is (I don't think she's *that* old, personally. Just older that she looks), and really... Why does age preclude someone from being a person? Do you think, say, Tolkien's elves aren't persons? I just don't understand this point of view. We haven't gleaned much about Melisandre's personality from her chapters, but she does have one, I'm sure. She has her memories, her fears and her beliefs, just like any human character.

 

Right now, it's like there's a clash between soap and epic in ASOIAF.

 

This is very true. I feel like it's the consequence of Martin not having a real plan/vision when he started writing (or maybe he had, and then ditched it). And, of course, him being too big for any sort of editor's influence (an issue my favorite fantasy series ever, Stephen Kings' The Dark Tower, had heavy suffered from in its last few installments).

 

My frustration over the delay in getting to the epic conflicts that were promised keeps me from enjoying the current rambling pace as a soap that can take all the time in the world before the big reveal that rearranges character relationships.

 

This is my problem with the series as well. I like character interaction, in general, but I'm not even getting any between the character I care about. Where is Tyrion/Dany that we all expected to see when Varys sent Tyrion over the sea? When can any of the Starks see each other, in any capacity? Etc., etc.

Edited January 24, 2015 by FurryFury

[jjjmoss]

Well I think The Dark Tower has an actually great writer, so that helps. King also almost never seems to have an editor regardless of what book it is, so I was used to it by then. 

It also helps that unlike GRRM King has 1-2 releases every year, so he has an excuse for not fine-tuning his work, as he just keeps on jumping onto the next thing. 

[SeanC]

"Anyone can die" has been taken just that little step too far

No, it hasn't.  GRRM's reputation for killing characters is seriously overinflated.  There have been four POV characters killed, one of whom had only a single chapter, another appeared only in a single book.  Basically, it's Ned and Cat.

 

and there have been SO many dropped plot points

Like what?

[FurryFury]

Well I think The Dark Tower has an actually great writer, so that helps.

 

Can't disagree with you here.

 

King also almost never seems to have an editor regardless of what book it is, so I was used to it by then.

 

Yeah, but for shorter works, it doesn't matter as much. For longer, however... I think editing could help. Lack of planning also hurts, I know that's his choice, but still.

 

It also helps that unlike GRRM King has 1-2 releases every year, so he has an excuse for not fine-tuning his work, as he just keeps on jumping onto the next thing.

 

I don't know about now (couldn't bring myself to read anything he's written after 2004), but the decision to write the last 3 installments very quickly has hurt the quality of the series immensely, I think.

 

There have been four POV characters killed, one of whom had only a single chapter, another appeared only in a single book.  Basically, it's Ned and Cat.

 

Yeah, that's right. Both GRRM and, say, Joss Whedon are really blamed way too much for their perceived overindulgence in the "Anyone can die" trope, but really, most of the time they just kill secondary characters. Some of them may be beloved by the audience, but they are still only secondary, and killing them off is a time-honored tradition. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if "Lost" had killed of more main characters than GRRM has, by this point, and it was a network show.