The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Hecate7]

Arya's a loner for life, Bran's a tree, which amounts to the same thing, and Rickon has probably been eaten. Sorry, but I can't think why else they showed us a grievously wounded Shaggydog, unless to imply that he's no longer able to protect Rickon. Robb, Cat, and Ned have died. I am fully expecting everyone in line ahead of Jon Snow to vanish in one way or another, and so far they have.

 

In fact, the only possible reunions I see are Jon Snow, Sansa, and/or Arya, and a sneered at wedding is frankly the rosiest, happiest outcome I can imagine for that reunion.

 

In the first place I doubt they will ever find out Arya's alive anyway. In the second place, if they want to wed they won't care who makes a face about it.

Seven hells, if Jon married Sansa there would be nothing stopping Lady Stoneheart from traveling up North to hang him!  Arya might not be too far behind her...

She hasn't hanged Tyrion, so I doubt she'd hang Jon Snow for marrying Sansa. It's not as if he'd be screwing up some better betrothal LS or Arya had in mind. Sansa could go marry a Bolton or a cow for all Arya cares, and Jon Snow can do as he likes. LS is way, way beyond arranging matches, and I don't think she ever meant Sansa to die a virgin.

[WearyTraveler]

So, book 6, I know there have been some chapters released.  I read the Mercy one and the one where Arianne is traveling to Griffin's Roost to meet Aegon, can someone point me to the links to read the rest that has been released?

 

Thank you!

[benteen]

GRRM posted a Theon one but that has long since been taken down.

 

I don't think it's Arya destiny to be a loner for life although I do subscribe to her becoming a wandering King's Justice.

[Hecate7]

For which King? And why? Is there a precedent for such a role?

[benteen]

For whomever is King or Queen of Westeros at the end of the series, providing there's still anything left.

[Coconuts]

Arya's a loner for life, Bran's a tree, which amounts to the same thing, and Rickon has probably been eaten. Sorry, but I can't think why else they showed us a grievously wounded Shaggydog, unless to imply that he's no longer able to protect Rickon. 

When was this shown? I don't know whether I missed a preview chapter, or just forgot something from AFFC/ADWD (I did buy a Kindle after falling asleep and dropping ADWD on my head, so I can't say I was super enthralled with the story).

[Hecate7]

From ADWD: A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him.[8]

I took the horn having raked Shaggy as a bad sign, perhaps worse than it really is.

[Avaleigh]

I honestly don't think that Rickon has been eaten. What would be the point in killing him off when he's had such a minor role thus far? Are we sure the unicorn was the victor in that little skirmish? I didn't realize that we knew for sure that Shaggydog had been "grievously" wounded. Also, what's the point in having Davos connect with Manderly if not to do something with Rickon? IMO plotwise even Quentyn ended up serving a function. Rickon OTOH not so much , at least not yet. I figure he's around for a reason and am guessing that he'll be the Stark who ends up with Winterfell.

ETA

Sorry, just saw the quote. I guess I disagree that it looks like the unicorn has the upper hand so to speak in this situation but I'll admit that upon rereading this I immediately thought back to the first book where the stag and the direwolf were found dead and entwined.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[GreyBunny]

Martin put on such a big production to fake Manderly's loyalty to the Freys, get information from Wex, fake Davos's death and send him to Skagos for it to not come to something for Rickon and his wolf. 

 

Unless Martin intends Shaggydog's story to be a real shaggy dog story.

[benteen]

Martin put on such a big production to fake Manderly's loyalty to the Freys, get information from Wex, fake Davos's death and send him to Skagos for it to not come to something for Rickon and his wolf. 

 

Unless Martin intends Shaggydog's story to be a real shaggy dog story.

 

The books do have a tendency for the best laid plans to come crashing down.  GRRM has been teasing reunions with the Starks and brutally keeping them from happening. 

 

Though I think Rickon will survive.  I also hope Robett Glover will be joining Davos on the trip to Skagos.  It's always a good opportunity to learn more about the men of the North, especially the Stark loyalists.

 

I've seen one fan theory speculate that one of Ned's family members (mother/grandmother) might have come from Skagos.  Although the trip to Skagos to me seems to be nothing more than an opportunity for GRRM to continue world-building.  Not that I don't want to see Skagos but still, it reeks of world-building.

[GreyBunny]

I think it was revealed that Ned's mother was a Stark cousin of some sort so it just indicated some degree of inbreeding.  Like every other family in Westeros. /anticlimactic. 

[Hecate7]

This story so far seems to be about people intending to do things, and doing something else instead.

 

 

Sorry, just saw the quote. I guess I disagree that it looks like the unicorn has the upper hand so to speak in this situation but I'll admit that upon rereading this I immediately thought back to the first book where the stag and the direwolf were found dead and entwined.

Me, too.

I really don't expect much to come of Rickon. I know it's the trope for him to become Lord of Winterfell, but I took Shaggydog's name as a hint from the start.

 

"We're off to see the cannibals" just doesn't have that optimistic ring.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Hecate7

[GreyBunny]

An overarcing theme seems to be that the best laid plans will go sideways, or at least you'll get what you want but in the worst possible way.

 

I'd laugh if Davos gets up there and finds that little Rickon is the king of the cannibals.  A tiny Colonel Kurtz.

Edited August 25, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Hecate7]

Sure, it'd be cute, but I wonder how likely it really is.

[WearyTraveler]

GRRM posted a Theon one but that has long since been taken down.

 

Thank you! If anyone has the chapter saved somewhere or knows of a way I could read it (or a summary of it), can you please PM me?

[Addlepated]

Is there a list somewhere of all the solemn oaths the characters have sworn throughout the series?

 

"X, I swear to you that someday I will give you a Y like you once had in your youth."

"X, I give you my vow that someday you will see your beloved Y again."

"X, you have my oath that someday you will return home to Y."

 

There are so many of those that I've lost count.  Dany's particularly fond of making promises.

 

Also, on the topic of Stark reunions - I've got a strong feeling that someday Arya and Jon will be reunited.  There's such deep affection between them when together, and they both think about each other quite often while apart.  The other Stark kids think about their siblings, but not nearly as fondly, it seems to me.

[Hecate7]

Also, it'd still be as icky to me as Sansa and Robin because they would be as much cousins as Sansa and Robin are.  Robin is the son of Cat's sister and Jon is the son of Ned's sister, so, it'd be exactly the same kind of incestuous relationship.  They'd both feel icky to me, even if by Westerosi standards they are accepted.

 

1) Nothing is as icky as Robin.

2) Sansa and Jon are age appropriate, whereas Robin isn't.

3) See #1. Robin is icky for anyone, not just Sansa.

4) It's not "the same kind" of incestuous relationship. Robin and Sansa would be a fourteen year old girl reluctantly submitting to an 6? 8? year old boy who repulses her (and everyone else, really), in the name of family, duty, and honor, because Littlefinger needs an heir to House Arryn in order to remain Lord Protector, and doesn't have time for Robin to grow up first. It would be a case of Robin forcing himself on his cousin because people have told him he's so big and strong, and that this is what men do. Jon and Sansa would be two singularly attractive teenagers falling in love in spite of his being raised as her illegitimate half-sibling, and in spite of the discovery that he's actually her cousin. Those are two very, very different kinds of relationship. I like the consensual, age appropriate one better.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Hecate7

[MrWhyt]

Yes the hypothetical consensual incestuous relationship is slightly less icky than the hypothetical non-consensual incestuous one, but they're still gross.

[Notwisconsin]

According to the Huffington Post, the scripts have caught up with the books. No wonder GRRM is only working on the books now.

[Winnief]

 

According to the Huffington Post, the scripts have caught up with the books. No wonder GRRM is only working on the books now.

 

I get the sense that he-or his publisher at least-are now in panic mode.  I mean they're filming the Mercy chapter from Winds for Seven's sakes and the Walk of Shame is coming too.  Plus, certain things they've said about filming make me believe that either the Battle of Winterfell or the Battle of Mereen or BOTH will happen next season, and they'll definitely be into Sansa's TWOW plot for sure.

[Luciaphile]

I get the sense that he-or his publisher at least-are now in panic mode.  I mean they're filming the Mercy chapter from Winds for Seven's sakes and the Walk of Shame is coming too.  Plus, certain things they've said about filming make me believe that either the Battle of Winterfell or the Battle of Mereen or BOTH will happen next season, and they'll definitely be into Sansa's TWOW plot for sure.

Oh, I think everyone is panicking. The show people are prepping for end-game. I have heard from a friend of a friend kind of thing (sorry, I know that's suspect and not particularly convincing) that they have 7 seasons total. And the rumor I heard from the same friend of a friend is that it's probably going to be 8 books.

 

Can someone explain about this business about Shaggy Dog? I missed something somewhere...

[Winnief]

 

Oh, I think everyone is panicking. The show people are prepping for end-game. I have heard from a friend of a friend kind of thing (sorry, I know that's suspect and not particularly convincing) that they have 7 seasons total. And the rumor I heard from the same friend of a friend is that it's probably going to be 8 books.

 

D&D always said they were planning on seven seasons and that's how long most of the main contracts go for too.  Plus the kids are aging fast. And D&D have been wearing themselves ragged on this series-they're gonna want to move on to other projects and/or get some sleep.   I know Martin and a lot of purists were hoping for an extra season but it just wasn't ever going to happen.

 

Yeah, I noticed that Martin's publisher, (and Martin too,) are now talking about eight books even though they haven't said it for sure, but I think they're just trying to ease already frantic readers into the idea a bit.  Another reason I'm thinking eight books is that Martin's said he has no plans for Dany to get to Westeros-or even meet Tyrion anytime soon, but she will be spending the bulk of the book working backwards through the Dothraki sea on some kind of spiritual journey and settling all her unfinished business with Kal Jaqo.  Seven save us all.  I'm betting that D&D will (wisely) skip that whole damn detour, as well as cutting whatever complications Martin had in mind with fAegon/Arianne.  I suspect there was a LOT planned for Sansa which is why the show had to accelerate her story arc so much-and clearly unlike fAegon, (or Dany's upcoming detour,) they *didn't* consider Sansa's story arc expendable which has me very VERY intrigued.

[ElizaD]

Another reason I'm thinking eight books is that Martin's said he has no plans for Dany to get to Westeros-or even meet Tyrion anytime soon, but she will be spending the bulk of the book working backwards through the Dothraki sea on some kind of spiritual journey and settling all her unfinished business with Kal Jaqo.  Seven save us all.  I'm betting that D&D will (wisely) skip that whole damn detour, as well as cutting whatever complications Martin had in mind with fAegon/Arianne.  I suspect there was a LOT planned for Sansa which is why the show had to accelerate her story arc so much-and clearly unlike fAegon, (or Dany's upcoming detour,) they *didn't* consider Sansa's story arc expendable which has me very VERY intrigued.

 

Khal Jhago! I sure can't wait for that meeting!

 

If GOT includes the Dothraki, I'd guess that Dany's enemies hire them and Dany roasts/wins them over in Meereen.

 

I'm even more curious about Sansa's S5 arc than I used to be, if that's possible, now that Bran might be skipping the season because he's reached the end of his published material. They aren't doing that with Sansa.

[benteen]

Khal Jhago! I sure can't wait for that meeting!

 

If GOT includes the Dothraki, I'd guess that Dany's enemies hire them and Dany roasts/wins them over in Meereen.

 

I'm even more curious about Sansa's S5 arc than I used to be, if that's possible, now that Bran might be skipping the season because he's reached the end of his published material. They aren't doing that with Sansa.

 

I know Dany has unfinished business with Khal Jhago but I don't want it to take a thousand ****ing pages for it to happen!  I'd rather Dany get control of her dragon and before leaving for Westeros go "You know what, I need to take care of one thing."  Then afterwards we get a SINGLE chapter of Dany roasting Jhago alive and warning the rest of the Dothraki savages that they'll meet the same fate if they continue to rape and pillage their way through Essos.  You see, one chapter to take care of an old plot thread.  But we'll get 10 chapters and about 200+ pages, with some food porn and probably a rape or two thrown in since it's the Dothraki.

Edited September 3, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

 

I know Dany has unfinished business with Khal Jhago but I don't want it to take a thousand ****ing pages for it to happen!  I'd rather Dany get control of her dragon and before leaving for Westeros go "You know what, I need to take care of one thing."  Then afterwards we get a SINGLE chapter of Dany roasting Jhago alive and warning the rest of the Dothraki savages that they'll meet the same fate if they continue to rape and pillage their way through Essos.

Agreed.  But sadly, Martin for some reason has decided its STILL not yet time for Dany to go to Westeros...probably because he wants to establish freaking fAegon and Arianne in KL first.

[benteen]

Sadly, that seems to be the case. 

 

I've said this before but the only way eight books would work for me is if there was a guarantee that book 7 and 8 would be released within 6-12 months of each other.  I'd be cool with that.  But that wouldn't happen and an 8th book would mean another 4-6 year delay.  Not to mention more meandering and world-building on GRRM's part.

 

I just read another article recently where GRRM talked about how difficult it was writing The Winds of Winter.  If it's become that difficult, then he should be his ego in check and bring in a co-writer to help him finish it.

 

Edited September 4, 2014 by benteen

[Lady S.]

Can someone explain about this business about Shaggy Dog? I missed something somewhere...

A Shaggy Dog Story is a plot with a high level of build-up and complicating action, only to be resolved with an anti-climax or ironic reversal, usually one that makes the entire story meaningless. The term comes from a type of joke (called "gildersome" in The Meaning of Liff) that worked the same way — a basic premise, a long amount of buildup, and a deliberately underwhelming punchline.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory

 

Personally I don't think the series is as fatalistic as some make out, but I also don't give a shit about Rickon. Though I expect his sudden death, if it happens, to be after Davos rescues him (with Shaggydog) to make it a true Shaggy Dog story. We don't have any evidence the Skagosi actually are cannibals, remember, they're an isolated people none of the mainlanders have real contact with and this is a fun rumor attached to them that fandom has run with because Feast/Dance do have a weird amount of cannibalism on the mainland. But the Frey pies and Vargo Hoat roast don't make the North/Riverlands a kingdom of cannibals, do they? Evin if there were notorious incidents of cannibalism of outsiders on Skagos, I doubt the whole island is crazy for the sweet meat of little boys any more than all of Osha's people would want to drink his blood from his skull. (And Ghost knows that Grey Wind and Lady are dead, so I think he'd feel something if Shaggydog's unicorn wound was fatal.)

I just read another article recently where GRRM talked about how difficult it was writing The Winds of Winter.  If it's become that difficult, then he should be his ego in check and bring in a co-writer to help him finish it.

GRRM choosing a co-writer? Look who he's written the World book with...I don't want to say more 'cause this board is a nice place. Edited September 4, 2014 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I would be super disappointed if certain unnamed people ended up being co-writers for the next book. That's just the opposite of a good idea IMO. I'm not opposed to GRRM getting a co-writer in theory but I'd be super worried about who he'd choose.

Re cannibalism-- how did I miss the info regarding the Vargo Hoat roast? Taking the roast definition either way it almost sounds kind of fun.

And now I'm laughing from imagining the prominent figures of Westeros hosting their own Dean Martin style roasts. Imagine someone like Roose or Tywin being totally lampooned?

[FurryFury]

So... whom did he write the World book with? I genuinely have no odea and am too lazy to google.

[Skeeter22]

So... whom did he write the World book with? I genuinely have no odea and am too lazy to google.

He wrote it with the creeps who run westeros.org, Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson. I understand they've helped with continuity on previous books.

[FurryFury]

Ahh, that guy, I get it now. Used to post there a few years ago, but the community wasn't really to my liking. Anyway, I think Martin has actual writer friends if he really needed help for remaining books, but I doubt he'll ask for it - his ego seems way too big for that.

[Winnief]

I doubt Martin would have trouble finding some really talented person to assist with the final books-there are tons of great writers out there panting to do it.  Nor would it necessarily be giving away control of the series-the helper could be acting more as a soundboard/editor to help keep you on track and make sure you don't get stuck more than anything else, and really even the best of us need help sometimes.  There's no shame in that.  But Martin's ego won't let him do it, and that makes me worry the series may never be concluded in a satisfactory manner-or not even concluded at all.  And that would be a shame.  

 

 

And now I'm laughing from imagining the prominent figures of Westeros hosting their own Dean Martin style roasts. Imagine someone like Roose or Tywin being totally lampooned?

 

My god I would pay to see that.  Especially the ShowVersion of Roose who frankly I like better than in the books.  Less over the top, more subtle, and all the more creepy for it thanks to Michael's great acting and cold Putin-esque eyes.  

 

Of course we must also add Stannis to the list as well.  

[benteen]

I doubt Martin would have trouble finding some really talented person to assist with the final books-there are tons of great writers out there panting to do it.  Nor would it necessarily be giving away control of the series-the helper could be acting more as a soundboard/editor to help keep you on track and make sure you don't get stuck more than anything else, and really even the best of us need help sometimes.  There's no shame in that.  But Martin's ego won't let him do it, and that makes me worry the series may never be concluded in a satisfactory manner-or not even concluded at all.  And that would be a shame.  

 

 

My god I would pay to see that.  Especially the ShowVersion of Roose who frankly I like better than in the books.  Less over the top, more subtle, and all the more creepy for it thanks to Michael's great acting and cold Putin-esque eyes.  

 

Of course we must also add Stannis to the list as well.  

 

Heheh.  That would be fun.

 

Imagine a roast for Joffrey, Ramsay, and the Mountain?  I've often thought it would be horrible to be forced to have dinner with any one of them.  I've wondered who you would have a better chance with to survive the night.  I figured Joffrey would be your safest bet.  If you appeal to his sadism, ego, and hatred of all things Stark, you can get through the night.  It doesn't take much to set Ramsay off and you'd be waiting for it to happen at any moment.  The Mountain you might get through the dinner with but if you slurped your soup too loudly, he'd cave your skull in.  And this is all if your a guy having dinner with either one of them.  If you were a woman, well...the less said, the better.

[Hecate7]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory

 

Personally I don't think the series is as fatalistic as some make out, but I also don't give a shit about Rickon. Though I expect his sudden death, if it happens, to be after Davos rescues him (with Shaggydog) to make it a true Shaggy Dog story. We don't have any evidence the Skagosi actually are cannibals, remember, they're an isolated people none of the mainlanders have real contact with and this is a fun rumor attached to them that fandom has run with because Feast/Dance do have a weird amount of cannibalism on the mainland. But the Frey pies and Vargo Hoat roast don't make the North/Riverlands a kingdom of cannibals, do they? Evin if there were notorious incidents of cannibalism of outsiders on Skagos, I doubt the whole island is crazy for the sweet meat of little boys any more than all of Osha's people would want to drink his blood from his skull. (And Ghost knows that Grey Wind and Lady are dead, so I think he'd feel something if Shaggydog's unicorn wound was fatal.)

GRRM choosing a co-writer? Look who he's written the World book with...I don't want to say more 'cause this board is a nice place.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheShaggyDog I think GRRM's style is more this, or "Kill 'Em All," than it is regular shaggy dog. He likes to operate in a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld.

[GreyBunny]

This is why I appreciate the show.  If GRRM croaks or keeps noodling around in his literary garden and never finishes, at least we'll have AN ending somewhere.  It won't be a total Robert Jordan/Wheel of Time situation. 

[ElizaD]

This is why I appreciate the show.  If GRRM croaks or keeps noodling around in his literary garden and never finishes, at least we'll have AN ending somewhere.  It won't be a total Robert Jordan/Wheel of Time situation. 

 

When Jordan found out how ill he was, he began working on notes so that someone else could finish the series if the worst happened; I respect him a great deal for that commitment, and though the author chosen had his own weak spots and made some decisions of his own regarding the material I'm glad I got to find out how WOT was supposed to end. GRRM has said he won't be doing that, so it really might be up to the show. And although GOT will probably stick to the intended book endings when it comes to the question of who gets the throne, Winterfell, the Rock etc, it's a shame that the fates of important book characters who have been cut from the show (Arianne, possibly Stoneheart, Aegon, Greyjoys) might never be known if the show getting to the ending first makes GRRM work even more slowly.

[FurryFury]

I had thought WoT's final books were comparatively well-received (I'm not into WoT). Anyway, at least working on it made Sanderson a much better writer. The Stormlight Archive's my favorite ongoing fantasy series.

I still kinda hope Martin won't die before finishing ASOIAF, but I'd prefer no ending over a disappointing one, and there is a pretty good chance for that. Ten years later I'm still reeling from the disappointment that were the last Dark Tower books, even though the actual ending was a pretty great one (if heartbreaking).

Edited September 6, 2014 by FurryFury

[GreyBunny]

Thanks for those updates.  When I hear about Martin not finishing, Wheel of Time is what comes up the most in the conversations I've read.  I'll have to find a better comparison.

Edited September 7, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Winnief]

 

This is why I appreciate the show.  If GRRM croaks or keeps noodling around in his literary garden and never finishes, at least we'll have AN ending somewhere.

 

Personally I have this nasty growing suspicion that the show is the only closure fans will get.  Of course that totally sucks for purists AND those fans who were into characters like Arianne and JonCon who never made it to the show.

 

I've also heard that Martin, (in complete opposite to Jordan,) refuses to leave notes that are too detailed precisely to avoid having the series ghost written if he should die without completing it.  He says a short basic outline of the proposed ending would be made public but the books would never come out since of course they can't possibly be done by anyone but the Great Man himself.  And frankly that declaration has made people more concerned than ever because a. It does leave us without a back-up plan and b.  Frankly what it says about Martin's egotism on this matter and lack of consideration for long term readers is more than a little worrisome.

 

If he was less defensive, less... prickly about his "legacy" I'd be more hopeful.

[Holmbo]

I've also heard that Martin, (in complete opposite to Jordan,) refuses to leave notes that are too detailed precisely to avoid having the series ghost written if he should die without completing it.  He says a short basic outline of the proposed ending would be made public but the books would never come out since of course they can't possibly be done by anyone but the Great Man himself.  And frankly that declaration has made people more concerned than ever because a. It does leave us without a back-up plan and b.  Frankly what it says about Martin's egotism on this matter and lack of consideration for long term readers is more than a little worrisome.

I can totally see why he wouldn't want anyone else finish his books. Maybe it's just cause of the way I feel about canon. It just wouldn't feel like the real ending if it wasn't written by the actual author. It is kinda selfish of him though to not the people who'd rather have a ghost writer ending than none not get one just cause he doesn't like it.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Holmbo

[benteen]

I wonder if part of the reason he doesn't have detailed notes is because he doesn't know how things will end.  Considering it's become such a chore for him to write the books are getting longer and longer with no end in site, why should anyone believe he knows where things are headed?

I think he does know how it will end but has no idea how to get there except to revel in world-building.

[Winnief]

 

 

I wonder if part of the reason he doesn't have detailed notes is because he doesn't know how things will end.  Considering it's become such a chore for him to write the books are getting longer and longer with no end in site, why should anyone believe he knows where things are headed?

I think he does know how it will end but has no idea how to get there except to revel in world-building.

 

Well we know he HAD to spell out all the events for D&D this past spring...but maybe that's easier said than writing them down, especially since he's probably written himself into a corner with all the damn subplots-something that's not nearly as big a problem for D&D who can be a lot more ruthless in cutting things out.  

 

But after finishing a rough draft of a novel myself, I do get writing down the action is harder said than imagining it-you just gotta keep disciplined and keep to set goals about what to get done each day.

[benteen]

Well we know he HAD to spell out all the events for D&D this past spring...but maybe that's easier said than writing them down, especially since he's probably written himself into a corner with all the damn subplots-something that's not nearly as big a problem for D&D who can be a lot more ruthless in cutting things out.  

 

But after finishing a rough draft of a novel myself, I do get writing down the action is harder said than imagining it-you just gotta keep disciplined and keep to set goals about what to get done each day.

 

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that.  He has revealed the ending to them. 

 

I agree, writing is a difficult process but I think he has lost his discipline and when you've become as famous as he is, your editor has no control over you.  He's also enjoying his fame and rightfully so.  But I think he LOVES to be a celebrity author.

[Haleth]

Interesting that with the show outpacing the books, D&D will be giving GRRM tips on how to wrap up the series instead of the other way around.  If Martin has written himself into a corner the show writers will be finding a way out for him.

[Winnief]

 

Interesting that with the show outpacing the books, D&D will be giving GRRM tips on how to wrap up the series instead of the other way around.  If Martin has written himself into a corner the show writers will be finding a way out for him.

 

LOL!  Of course knowing Martin he'll try to find ways to 'distinguish' himself from the show once more.

[Hanahope]

Thanks for those updates.  When I hear about Martin not finishing, Wheel of Time is what comes up the most in the conversations I've read.  I'll have to find a better comparison.

 

For me, the best comparison is Melanie Rawn (Dragon Prince and Dragon Star trilogies) and her Exiles trilogy.  Wrote two books of it, then she got very sick and didn't write for a while.  When she finally started writing again, she started a new series, didn't do well, did a couple 'stand alone books' and then another series, which is now on its 5th book.  Meanwhile, fans have been clamoring for the final Exiles book (over 15 years now) I have refused to read anything further from her until Exiles was completed or until I knew another series was complete - I refuse to start something again that's not finished (almost wish I had kept that promise when I started GoT).  Finally heard that supossedly after finishing the 6th book in her latest series, she'll finish the third Exiles book.  I'm not holding my breath.

 

Its these experiences that do really make me wary of starting any new book series until all books have been completed.  I hate not knowing that there is an ending (or, for example, in the Divergent series - reading the first two books before the third was written, then finding out the ending absolutely sucks).   Makes me want to stick to more 'stand alone' type stories,even those that have some small plot line that continues to run through them.

[Avaleigh]

So what do people's death pools look like for TWOW?

The first three books in the series each have dozens of deaths with the first two books having some five or six significant deaths with ASOS having about ten or so. The death count in the last two books seems to be smaller and there don't seem to be as many significant deaths in comparison to the first three books. In AFFC I'd argue that Maester Aemon was the main important death along possibly with POV Arys Oakheart. In ADWD it was Varamyr, Janos, and Quentyn. (I don't think Jon is dead or will remain dead so for me it doesn't really count.) Compare that with the death list in AGOT which also includes Viserys, Drogo, Jon Arryn, Robert, Ned, etc.

I know it is often said that no one is safe in GRRM's world but I personally don't get that impression and feel that there are some characters who are decidedly safe. For me the last super shocking death was Tywin's so I'm hoping TWOW will really bring it on this score because I feel like we're overdue.

So, going with the idea that we're about due for at least five significant deaths my list includes--

Victarion - I think he'll be roasted by a dragon after using the horn

Lancel - he'll die defending the Faith

Margaery - she'll lose her trial

Myrcella - not sure how yet but Arianne and Aegon might be partly to blame

Stannis - I'm going out on a limb with this one but I think it's possible since I don't see him winning the IT.

Lesser but still important

Cotter Pyke

Khal Pono

Hizdahr

[Cheshrkat]

I think Tommen dies before Myrcella does.  And I don't see Barristan Selmy making it out of the next book alive.

[Holmbo]

I'd count Kevan and Pycelle to be important deaths on the level with those mentioned.

I agree that there are characters that are clearly safe. At least for the moment. I wouldn't put my head on any particular character making it out of the series alive though.

As for characters dying in the next book I agree about Barristan being in danger of that. Other than him I'd say that the pov characters who's met up with other pov's are much more likely to die than before. For example Theon and Asha or possibly Stannis. I think Cersei is safe until some other pov gets to kingslanding. I could see Lancel dying though and Margaery (how are women executed in that world? Decapitation?)

[Avaleigh]

The main reason I don't have Barristan down for death in TWOW is because I think he'll return to Westeros with Dany and that seems like it might not even happen in this book.

The Lannisters fucked up when they dismissed Barristan and IMO the only way this will end up biting them in the ass is if they/Cersei see that Selmy is now with Dany. Barristan's presence by her side will also give her some additional cred in terms of her claim maybe being more palatable to those who might see her as some almost foreign conqueror. Also, if we lose Selmy during the Battle of Meereen then that's it as far as him telling Dany more about Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaella, etc.