Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Maverick]

Deep Space Nine had an episode where the crew went back in time over 100 years.  Bashir thought they were on the same ship with his great-great-grandmother and throughout the episode wondered if every hot babe in a miniskirt they bumped into was her.  And if he was destined to become his own great-great grandfather.  I don't think (or hope) they're going the related route with Ava, but they wouldn't be the first.

 If the 'Sara killed Ava's father' theory is true, it has to be kept a secret from Sara because of the guilt she'll feel.  Rip knows Sara regrets her past and has a hard enough time believing she's worthy of being loved.  Sara would stop the relationship dead in its tracks, even if Ava didn't.   Also, if true it seems unlikely Ava would have seen her father's killer.  Surely she'd recognize Sara.   Even if she didn't immediately recognizer her when they first met, she's read Sara's file and knows she was a member of the LoA.  Surely she would have connected the dots then.

 With the "I, Ava" title the android theory is reasonable.  But I tend to think all the Time Bureau agents are androids.  That would explain why Rip wasn't overly concerned about the Director being killed by Grodd, or even about the agents that died at Darhk's resurrection.  He's said he feels bad about that, but there's something half-hearted about it.  

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, Maverick said:

He's said he feels bad about that, but there's something half-hearted about it.  

Rip's half-hearted about it because he's kind of an obsessive dick.  Let's recall that Rip got the Legends together in the first place to kill Vandal Savage - an evil person who was nonetheless involved in multiple critical points of human history.  Rip is very much a "the omelet is worth the broken eggs" kind of guy.

Edited March 8, 2018 by johntfs

[shantown]

Everyone here has convinced me the "secret" is nothing to do with descendants. I can't think of anything that would be important enough to have its own file that wouldn't also 1) be something Sara could figure out on her own (ie, not a robot), 2) not be vital information that Sara/others would NEED to know (ie, Ava must be killed to stop Mallus), or 3) be something about Ava that Rip would have to hide from Sara (and not about Sara hiding it from Ava).

It seems implied that Ava herself doesn't know the secret if I interpreted the scene correctly, so unless she's been mind-wiped, I don't think she's a time traveler or an assassin or something. I'm at a loss. Maybe she's actually mystical object known as The Key transformed into a human by a group of monks and sent to the Time Bureau for safekeeping...

 

[Starfish35]

24 minutes ago, shantown said:

Maybe she's actually mystical object known as The Key transformed into a human by a group of monks and sent to the Time Bureau for safekeeping...

Lol. :) Good one.

[Sakura12]

9 hours ago, shantown said:

It seems implied that Ava herself doesn't know the secret if I interpreted the scene correctly, so unless she's been mind-wiped, I don't think she's a time traveler or an assassin or something. I'm at a loss. Maybe she's actually mystical object known as The Key transformed into a human by a group of monks and sent to the Time Bureau for safekeeping...

That would actually make sense in Rip thinking she's special. Maybe she's the 7th totem or something that can stop Mallus made into human form. Either way I think the Ava we see is not the real Ava. Rip probably used the same thing that turned him into Phil the director on her. 

I guess with this they did manage to make Ava interesting since it got us to talk about her. Lol. 

[Delphi]

14 hours ago, johntfs said:

Rip's half-hearted about it because he's kind of an obsessive dick.  Let's recall that Rip got the Legends together in the first place to kill Vandal Savage - an evil person who was nonetheless involved in multiple critical points of human history.  Rip is very much a "the omelet is worth the broken eggs" kind of guy.

Agreed,  Rip doesn't care all that much about human life,  his end goal is always the most important thing to him.   If people have to die its fine because it's for his greater good.   

Also,  you'd have to make me pretty much an entirely different person to care about the death of the people who locked me up. 

[Lady Calypso]

So, we finally have a press release on the I, Ava episode:

Quote

DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW
“I, Ava” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

SEEING DOUBLE —  When Ava (guest star Jes Macallan) disappears, Sara (Caity Lotz) and Ray (Brandon Routh) set out to find her after some prodding from Time Bureau agent Gary (guest star Adam Tsekhman) and a disturbing truth about Ava.  Amaya (Maisie Richardson-Sellers) tasks Zari (Tala Ashe) with helping train Rory (Dominic Purcell) in controlling his own Totem power. Meanwhile, Nate (Nick Zano) and Wally (Keiynan Lonsdale) set out on a mission that goes awry when they pair with an unlikely person to try and get a Totem. Dean Choe directed the episode written by Ray Utarnachitt & Daphne Miles (#316).  Original airdate 3/26/2018.

So...seeing double. Is Ava a robot with multiple versions of herself??

[Sakura12]

I wasn't interested in an Ava episode, now I am so good job LoT writers. :lol: 

[Sakura12]

More promo pics for 3x15. I guess this is Sara as Mallus with the Death totem. '

http://dclegendstv.com/2018/03/06/constantines-back-in-necromancing-the-stone-pics/nggallery/image/lgn315c_0002b/

[lurker22]

Whoa! I definitely wasn't expecting that! The captions say Sara's the "Death Witch". I guess her trip to Salem was just foreshadowing, lol.

As for Ep 16, I'm more excited that Sara finally gets to work with Ray. The last time there was any substantial scene between Sara and Ray, it was the S2 premiere. I think they have an interesting dynamic, and it's a shame they don't interact more. Nice to see Ray wanting to help his Captain find the mean Time Bureau lady, hehe.

[Sakura12]

I wonder why Sara puts on the totem in the first place. Is she drawn to it because she died? I also wonder what kind of powers she'll have. They will definitely need all the help they can get with Sara being a death witch. 

[Miss Dee]

Maybe the only reason Sara can wield it without total corrpution/destruction is because she died. Some sort of Harry Potter thing.

[lurker22]

Another look at Sara as Death Witch.

Is her new look only because of Mallus, because the other totem bearers don't change when they use their totems?

[Starfish35]

19 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

Is her new look only because of Mallus, because the other totem bearers don't change when they use their totems?

Yeah, I think it has to do with Mallas possessing her.

[lurker22]

12 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I wonder why Sara puts on the totem in the first place. Is she drawn to it because she died? I also wonder what kind of powers she'll have. They will definitely need all the help they can get with Sara being a death witch. 

Apparently the totem can control the dead and command spirits, based on the Reddit spoilers for next episode. And the episode ends with the box containing the death totem shaking, so I wonder if it senses that Sara is on the ship and they're drawn to each other. Can totems choose the bearer?

[darkestboy]

Wow, a bit of a scary/deathly look there for Sara.

[lurker22]

Ava's file number 354Z might also have something to do with Action Comics #354: A scientist of the 27th Century creates a super-robot named Captain Incredible, with powers that exceed those of Superman, to be his aide, but the stress of traveling back to the 20th Century turns the robot into Superman's enemy.

Maybe that's why Ava seems to match Sara in fighting skills. *shrugs*

[Solace247]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎09 at 9:12 PM, lurker22 said:

Apparently the totem can control the dead and command spirits, based on the Reddit spoilers for next episode. And the episode ends with the box containing the death totem shaking, so I wonder if it senses that Sara is on the ship and they're drawn to each other. Can totems choose the bearer?

Can someone clear up the totem thing for me?

First, we are given the impression that the totems are an ancestral thing from Amaya's tribe and four others. They apparently 'choose' their bearers and guide you to some end and it's all such a burden, but one that must be born as the 'chosen one'. In the cases of Amaya, Zari, and I believe Kuasa, it is shown to be almost a lineage type of deal, with totems and their powers being passed down.  The ancestral plane seems to support this to an extent.

Yet, in the pirate episode, Annie, with no connection to a totem, is taken over immediately upon wearing the Earth totem and proceeds to attack all those around her because its power reflects the inner self of the person wearing it. Was she chosen in that moment? Did Amaya ever explain that the amplification of her inner self is an effect she experiences with the Spirit totem or is it only really a problem for people who aren't chosen?

Finally, when Nora tries to use the totem, she can't because Amaya's bond is stronger and Nora's inner self is only interested in power. Apparently, you have to perform a selfless act in order to break a previous bearer's bond to the totem. So, is this only a necessary step if the totem has a bearer already? I supposed dead ancestral bonds don't apply to the totems, so any totem that doesn't have a living chosen bearer can just fall into someone's hands and be operational if the totem chooses them?

Is Sara going to be 'chosen' like Amaya and Zari, or amplified like Annie?

Is the answer to all these questions simply Mallus???

[Sakura12]

The Spirit totem was passed down to Amaya's family but that doesn't mean she's the only one that can use it's power. They said it was given to the tribes, a tribe is a group of people not one family. I'm guessing the tribe just chose a person to wear the totem. Then I think once the person accepts the totem and the totem accepts the wear they can wield it's power, then that bond goes down through the bloodline. That's why Amaya's family can wear the totem and Zari can use it after her brother. However others can take the totem and get it to accept them and then they can use it like Nora did. 

The Earth and Death totem have been lost for centuries or longer so they have no bearer. So they probably have find someone worthy to wear it. 

[Solace247]

On March 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Sakura12 said:

The Spirit totem was passed down to Amaya's family but that doesn't mean she's the only one that can use it's power. They said it was given to the tribes, a tribe is a group of people not one family. I'm guessing the tribe just chose a person to wear the totem. Then I think once the person accepts the totem and the totem accepts the wear they can wield it's power, then that bond goes down through the bloodline. That's why Amaya's family can wear the totem and Zari can use it after her brother. However others can take the totem and get it to accept them and then they can use it like Nora did. 

The Earth and Death totem have been lost for centuries or longer so they have no bearer. So they probably have find someone worthy to wear it. 

Yeah, I understand a tribe is more than just one family--they just put such emphasis on the familial lineage when Amaya and Zari spoke of their totems in the past, as if it was a requirement of using the totem.  The show has kind of played a bit fast and loose with the totems, so it was confusing as to why certain wielders were overtaken, some couldn't use them, and others were chosen. I guess I hadn't been considering Mallus' power to interact with the totems either. 

I'm assuming everyone can go to the ancestral plane if they have a totem and are able to meditate correctly. I wonder if the bearers are going to fight Mallus in the ancestral plane? Is that where Sara went in the Beebo episode or were they saving on set dressings? Sara seemed to be transported there by hitching a ride with the Darhks even though they went elsewhere. Was her body really transported somewhere, in which case Ava would have some freaky ability to locate her, or was Sara possessed like young Nora was in Jitters and Ava just tapped her on the shoulder?

[Lady Calypso]

So, the promo pictures for "I, Ava" are out.

If the title didn't expose the Ava secret, this promo picture certainly will. 

[lurker22]

Are they looking at the specs of Ava bot?

[Lady Calypso]

So, with this news of Matt Ryan being promoted to a series regular for season 4 (which, I guess, almost officially confirms Legends has been renewed), does that mean that Amaya (and Nate) may very well be leaving the team? I imagine they might also want to cast a new character for next season, as mixing it up seems to be what Legends likes to do. 

Season 1 already had nine members being brought down to eight with Hawkman. Then, season 2 had a major cleansing of the team, with the Hawks out for good, and Rip being dropped to recurring, followed by the addition of Amaya and Nate. They've been fairly consistent with the number of members, but I do feel like they'll want to introduce someone new at some point for next season, and I get the feeling like they might be thinking of getting rid of someone by the end of this season/early next season. 

[Solace247]

57 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

They've been fairly consistent with the number of members, but I do feel like they'll want to introduce someone new at some point for next season, and I get the feeling like they might be thinking of getting rid of someone by the end of this season/early next season. 

I've been feeling this for a while concerning Nate and Amaya. I'm not as invested in their story as some, so it won't affect my enjoyment of the show other than feeling the loss of the Nate/Ray bromance. Plus, they've already done the whole separation thing, so either they both stay or they both leave.

[Starfish35]

I'm thinking both Nate and Amaya are done at the end of this season.  They can't keep doing the "will she, won't she" with Amaya forever.  And it wouldn't surprise me if Nate got killed off, leaving Amaya to return to Zambezi pregnant with their child, thus explaining why no one seems to know who the grandfather is.  And Amaya's line about having all the time in the last episode seemed to hint that maybe their time was coming to an end.

That would take them to six full-time team members with Constantine being added, so I could see them adding one or two more. 

1. Sara
2. Ray
3. Mick
4. Zari
5. Wally
6. Constantine
7. ?
8. ?

[MarkHB]

7 and 8: Sugar and Spike?

ETA: I posted this as a joke, and then I read that those two actually appeared (as adults) in the LoT comic!

[Princess Lucky]

No thanks re; Constantine.

Like many of you, I thought we'd be done with the magic stuff after this season, so this doesn't fill me with hope. And, frankly, I'd much rather keep Amaya and Nate than sit through Constantine's... whatever. Swagger. I like my heroes dorky. But I do agree with other comments; if Amaya goes, they better bring in another WOC. Yes, it's silly (like replacing Jax with Wally) but it beats having no POC at all, or diminishing their numbers. It's bad enough we're getting another white guy.

I also agree that, if anyone goes, it'll be Nate and Amaya. In the promo pics for I, Ava there's a pic of Nate and Kuasa. If they bond at all, it'll be proof he's her grandad. Plus Amaya already said "I love you." That storyline is definitely moving to an end. And I agree, I don't see Nate willingly giving her up (i.e. staying on the show without her, while she goes back to her time). If he's alive, he'll want to go with her. And, if they're both leaving, the writers just might kill Nate for the drama (as opposed to a sappy happy ending, which, if I'm honest, I would not object to, but anyway).

I could also see Mick leaving, if Dominic Purcell is busy. The others have to be safe.

Eh. I must admit, my main feeling after reading the Constantine news is "all good things (i.e. LoT's winning streak) must come to an end."

I just hope they tone him down. Or camp him up. In my opinion, his original vibe doesn't fit with this show. And I'd much rather see him change.

[johntfs]

32 minutes ago, Princess Lucky said:

No thanks re; Constantine.

Like many of you, I thought we'd be done with the magic stuff after this season, so this doesn't fill me with hope. And, frankly, I'd much rather keep Amaya and Nate than sit through Constantine's... whatever. Swagger. I like my heroes dorky. But I do agree with other comments; if Amaya goes, they better bring in another WOC. Yes, it's silly (like replacing Jax with Wally) but it beats having no POC at all, or diminishing their numbers. It's bad enough we're getting another white guy.

I think Constantine will work on the show.  While they talk up the demon-hunter/master of the occult, John Constantine is really more of a grifter/con-man with a few magic tricks than Doctor Fate.  That kind of character will fit in fine with the Legends.  If Nate and Amaya leave, I could also see Kuasa joining to make up for past bad actions (and also because they allow light to moderate theft on the ship).

Edited March 19, 2018 by johntfs

[Cthulhudrew]

Excited to hear about Constantine. Matt Ryan's been a trooper pulling duty these last couple years since they cancelled his series. I'd still love to get that show back (or at least something similar with MR and Charles Halford's character; Zed I could do without). This is a good compromise, though.

I tend to agree the writings on the wall for Nate and Amaya (too bad, I like Amaya) and that they'll intro someone else by season's end to join up. Maybe Jonah Hex will take a short stint with the Legends? Or maybe they'll bring in Booster Gold (which could be cool); they'll need to replace Nate's "bro" character.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[TDT]

10 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Or maybe they'll bring in Booster Gold (which could be cool); they'll need to replace Nate's "bro" character.

Or what if they bring back Jax,and Mick hands the Fire totem off to him..?

[Lady Calypso]

I will say, after watching the latest episode, I'm....still unsure of how Constantine will fit into the show as a series regular. Most of his scenes last night were with Gary and Ava, and then the ship stuff was him doing his occult chanting. I don't think he's wacky enough to be a full fledged member on the ship. I really can't see it working out with him. Some characters are great for ensembles, and others aren't. I just don't see Constantine as an ensemble kind of guy. I really did try last night to see how Constantine would fit on the show, and I just couldn't imagine him as anything more than a guest star.

Plus, I've never liked the magic stuff in the Arrowverse. I didn't like it in season 4 of Arrow, I've barely tolerated Damien Darhk, and I don't want it for season 4 of Legends. Unfortunately, I don't see any other way of incorporating Constantine without upping the magic aspect.

[Sakura12]

I noticed that Mallus only acknowledged Constantine not Ava when they were trying to get into his world. She was also able to grab Sara from Mallus' world before.  I'm wondering if he can't sense Ava if she's in fact a robot. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Sakura12

[darkestboy]

First of all, I love the idea of Constantine being a regular and he could work. My guess it'll be him with another female character, especially if both Nate and Amaya are leaving in the finale. It could be Kuasa if they redeem the character and don't kill her off and then we'd have another Totem bearer along with Zari and Mick or it could be someone new altogether but either way, I really do hope the show gets a fourth season now.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, darkestboy said:

First of all, I love the idea of Constantine being a regular and he could work. My guess it'll be him with another female character, especially if both Nate and Amaya are leaving in the finale. It could be Kuasa if they redeem the character and don't kill her off and then we'd have another Totem bearer along with Zari and Mick or it could be someone new altogether but either way, I really do hope the show gets a fourth season now.

I'm hoping Kuasa is not the other potential new character coming in. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not a fan of Kuasa at all. I think the actress is very bland and I don't see a need for her on the show. I have felt nothing toward her as a character, personally. 

[Solace247]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm hoping Kuasa is not the other potential new character coming in. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not a fan of Kuasa at all. I think the actress is very bland and I don't see a need for her on the show. I have felt nothing toward her as a character, personally. 

I agree completely. Even though they've given her a backstory and motivation, she still comes across as a cardboard character.

[Delphi]

If we are getting Constantine,  I wouldn't mind Zatanna hoppig on board,  but they'll never add her.   Or we could bring back Ragman.

[Goldmoon]

Quote

they'll need to replace Nate's "bro" character.

No.  They most definitely do NOT need to replace Nate's obnoxious "bro" character.  I will miss Amaya but have wanted Nate off my screen since he first appeared.  Besides, Wally could bring the "bro" if the writers want for him to do so.  I want Ray to go back to talking to Mick.  Agree that Kuasa doesn't inspire me to care.

Jonah Hex ... Yes, that I could enjoy.  If we are concerned about People of Color joining, maybe John can get Abbie Mills back from the dead.  He did it with Sara.  Abbie and Jonah.  Yeah, that works. 

[Starfish35]

I'd like to see them bring Dr. Light or Katana on.

[lurker22]

I'm also having a hard time picturing Constantine a regular on Legends. I have enjoyed his scenes thus far, especially his scenes with Sara (I loved that he said she was worth it). But what is he going to do next season if it's presumably not going to be magic-themed? Would he be fine with putting on different costumes and not using magic as and when he wishes? Can he really take orders from Captain Lance or is he just going to do what he wants? The Legends have worked so well together that I would hate for him to break up this dynamic (though I'm sure the writers are all about shaking up the team, as they've said many times in interviews). I also have some of the worries that have already been stated here, that he is too big a character and could just overshadow everyone.

I've seen the NBC show, and TBH, I was never into it. So I would hate for Legends to go the dark, occult direction because of Constantine, instead of staying the fun, light, sci-fi time traveling show.

[Princess Lucky]

13 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

I'm also having a hard time picturing Constantine a regular on Legends. I have enjoyed his scenes thus far, especially his scenes with Sara (I loved that he said she was worth it). But what is he going to do next season if it's presumably not going to be magic-themed? Would he be fine with putting on different costumes and not using magic as and when he wishes? Can he really take orders from Captain Lance or is he just going to do what he wants? The Legends have worked so well together that I would hate for him to break up this dynamic (though I'm sure the writers are all about shaking up the team, as they've said many times in interviews). I also have some of the worries that have already been stated here, that he is too big a character and could just overshadow everyone.

I've seen the NBC show, and TBH, I was never into it. So I would hate for Legends to go the dark, occult direction because of Constantine, instead of staying the fun, light, sci-fi time traveling show.

That's one of my concerns, can he take orders from Sara without making it weird or sexual or suggestive? I have actually warmed up to Nate for that exact reason, he's never been inappropriate with her, and he's always calling her Captain without a shred of ego, he eagerly accepts her as his boss. I like that. I don't want Constantine to be inappropriately flirty and insolent. He needs to know who's boss. The Rip/Sara conflict last season was very interesting, in terms of who the Captain was, but it was based on betrayal, and friendship, and respect, and deeper emotions and extreme actions. Not some guy being too cocky to take orders without making a joke out of it. Does that make sense?

That said, Constantine was better in this week's episode, more toned down but also camped up, at the same time. If they change him into a far quirkier character, I'll accept him more easily. I respect that he's an iconic DC character (and I liked the Keanu movie, to be honest), but again, I'd much rather "sacrifice" the integrity of Constantine than the quality of this show. Don't change the show to fit him, change him to fit the show. And then, I just might start liking him.

[Miss Dee]

Mick more or less follows Sara's orders when it suits him, even though it's clear he respects her as the boss. So I can see Constantine being much the same. Or maybe it'll be a point that he doesn't follow her orders or doesn't like to, and he'll have to learn to acquiesce.

In any case, I agree the last episode made me think he can gel with the rest of the cast if the writers can write him correctly (and honestly, I'm so into this season they're pretty much hitting all the right notes for me).

Assuming Constantine isn't being written in so they can write Mick out without losing viewers, maybe they want Mick to be more of a team player next season (albeit a "wild and crazy guy" type of team player), so Constantine will fill the "there's a distinct possibility this guy will turn on us at any time" role.

[Goldmoon]

Quote

Not some guy being too cocky to take orders without making a joke out of it.

I get enough of this in real life.  Don't let Sara lose the girl power advantage because of this cocky bastard.  We had better not lose Mick!

[lurker22]

I agree with the examples given. Mick does take orders from Sara and respects her, but he's also used to taking orders from Snart. I think when he agrees with the orders and they came from someone he respects, he has no problem following them. Nate and Ray (and Jax/Stein, when they were around), were pretty much Team Captain Lance from the beginning. I think Sara's concern for Nate when he first joined (re: his hemophilia) was what created his sense of loyalty to Sara. There never was any major conflict between Rip and Sara when Sara became the Captain. Rip did fall back into the Captain role out of habit a few times, but he respected Sara's authority and there was no ego involved. He clearly saw that she was the better leader. And we're just past the stage where we have Amaya and Zari second guessing Sara's leadership, and I'd hate to start that all over again with Constantine.

That said, I do think Constantine respects Sara, especially after seeing what she's capable of. I'm just not sure how much of a team player he is, and if he's arrogant enough to think he always knows better and simply thinks of Sara's orders as a "suggestion" that he can ignore if he wants to. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I do feel better that it's the Legends writers handling him, and so far they have done a pretty good job at portraying Sara as a Captain and her relationships with her team. Maybe Gideon will teach Constantine about respecting the Captain again, lol.

[Maelstrom]

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

That's one of my concerns, can he take orders from Sara without making it weird or sexual or suggestive? I have actually warmed up to Nate for that exact reason, he's never been inappropriate with her, and he's always calling her Captain without a shred of ego, he eagerly accepts her as his boss. I like that. I don't want Constantine to be inappropriately flirty and insolent. He needs to know who's boss. The Rip/Sara conflict last season was very interesting, in terms of who the Captain was, but it was based on betrayal, and friendship, and respect, and deeper emotions and extreme actions. Not some guy being too cocky to take orders without making a joke out of it. Does that make sense?

The constant inappropriateness and innuendo is one of the things that doesn't work for me about Constantine*. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with characters flirting or teasing from writers taking advantage of chemistry between actors (tbh, Leo made my inner teenager squee pretty regularly). But I don't like watching characters whose sole purpose is to skeeve all over everyone within proximity. I've known enough people like that in real life, I don't care to watch it on tv. So far Constantine hasn't been able to have any interactions without being inappropriately sexual, and Sara has received the bulk of that. She's such a badass that she can handle it, but it's still tiresome to watch IMO.

*at least how Constantine's been on Legends - I didn't watch enough of his NBC show for it to make an impression, and they had network Standards and Practices to contend with over there, so I doubt his skeevy nature was never really able to come into play.

1 hour ago, lurker22 said:

I agree with the examples given. Mick does take orders from Sara and respects her, but he's also used to taking orders from Snart. I think when he agrees with the orders and they came from someone he respects, he has no problem following them. Nate and Ray (and Jax/Stein, when they were around), were pretty much Team Captain Lance from the beginning. I think Sara's concern for Nate when he first joined (re: his hemophilia) was what created his sense of loyalty to Sara. There never was any major conflict between Rip and Sara when Sara became the Captain. Rip did fall back into the Captain role out of habit a few times, but he respected Sara's authority and there was no ego involved. He clearly saw that she was the better leader.

Well said. I'd venture that both Mick and Rip's issues in taking orders from Sara ultimately stem from their uncertainty in where they stand with the team. For Mick, he never felt he belonged, he was simply there and, after Snart's death, didn't really know why. So why bother taking orders from someone who may not have wanted him there? And for Rip, his arc in season two was really a shitstorm for him. He has to time displace the Legends to save them, then sends himself to the 60s and erases his own memory, then gets brainwashed into helping the Legion, and only after all that does he get his memories back and rejoin the Waverider. It's no wonder he didn't know where he fit in, and took a little time adjusting to the new situation of Captain Lance. In short, both ultimately had issues with themselves, and not with having a female captain. Jonah Hex, in last season's appearance, had problems taking orders from a woman, but wised up by the episode's end once he realized how competent she is.

Wow, this post ended up being a novel. I'm not even sure if it's still on topic anymore. Is it possible I'm thinking about this show too much? Beebo help me, is such a thing even possible? ;)

Edited March 24, 2018 by Maelstrom

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

That said, Constantine was better in this week's episode, more toned down but also camped up, at the same time. If they change him into a far quirkier character, I'll accept him more easily. I respect that he's an iconic DC character (and I liked the Keanu movie, to be honest), but again, I'd much rather "sacrifice" the integrity of Constantine than the quality of this show. Don't change the show to fit him, change him to fit the show. And then, I just might start liking him.

I could see that happening and live with it. The only slight concerns I have is that I've come across a few people in a couple of different places who say MG is forcing every other character to kiss Sara's ass because she's his character and all other characters are being sidelined. 

Which is very incorrect because Sara was created long before MG became showrunner of Arrow, it ignores the existence of day to day LOT show runner PK, most characters have had good wins this season and their own centrics at least once. Sara herself has been in more B and C plots than last season and ones that use her heavily end up with her sister's killer being resurrected and two having Mallus inside her, causing her to freak out about what she's capable of and dump her new girlfriend. 

I'm just a bit concerned that "sacrificing" Constantine integrity he'll fit in better will end with more blaming of Sara for ruining this huge iconic DC character (or Sara as MG's proxy I guess). LOT has the least toxic, least divided fanbase in the Arrowverse right now, I'd hate to see that change. I guess we'll wait and see. 

I wonder if the show offered MR a contract to make an S4 even more attractive or if they wanted to keep using him as a guest and he said if he was going to keep popping up he'd like a contract to make it worth it. It's possible Constantine won't be in every episode or always on the ship with the team. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Featherhat

[Maelstrom]

15 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I wonder if the show offered MR a contract to make an S4 even more attractive or if they wanted to keep using him as a guest and he said if he was going to keep popping up he'd like a contract to make it worth it. It's possible Constantine won't be in every episode or always on the ship with the team. 

That's a good point, much ado was made of WM's contract to be a regular on all shows last year and he showed up, what, not even half a dozen times total? Maybe if I'm lucky that'll be the case with Constantine, too.

[Starfish35]

You all are expressing a lot of the main concerns I have better than I could.  I'm over (and a bit embarrassed by) my overreaction on Monday, but I'm still worried.  I liked Constantine more in this most recent episode than in Daddy Darhkest, but it was not nearly enough to alleviate my concerns about him being a regular. :(

26 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

But I don't like watching characters whose sole purpose is to skeeve all over everyone within proximity

This.

21 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I'm just a bit concerned that "sacrificing" Constantine integrity he'll fit in better will end with more blaming of Sara for ruining this huge iconic DC character (or Sara as MG's proxy I guess). I guess we'll wait and see. 

And also this.

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

I have actually warmed up to Nate for that exact reason, he's never been inappropriate with her, and he's always calling her Captain without a shred of ego, he eagerly accepts her as his boss. I like that.

Same.  I have issues with Nate, but I do love and appreciate this about him.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

People who are annoyed that Sara is taking over are haters imo. She is the Captain but has rarely had any delving into her as a character. She always has secondary growth. The show runners felt she had a lot of character growth on Arrow so didn't need to be developed as much. Which was probably true but it's still important that she get personal issues and storylines. I actually feel much of Sara's storyline this season was bringing in Ava, Constantine and of course Mallus, Sara and her sister stuff have been included in all 3 seasons but it really hasn't had a lot of screen time. Sara is used a lot in fighting sequences but that isn't character development. I think the show has used all the characters pretty well this season. Ray might have been limited this season but he has had two episodes. His fighting just hasn't been used a lot. Legends really uses it's cast of characters pretty well imo.  I think Nate took over early last season but that has improved, I don't like him as a lead so it seems like he's too much at times so I do get where the Sara haters come from but they should be honest about it. I am with Nate. 

Constantine needs to accept working as a team. That is what they were working on with his show. I think the Legends can teach him that. It could lead to a working Justice league dark tv show. Which is what I think is the eventual plan. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by tarotx

[Miss Dee]

Huh. So maybe Constantine hangs out with the Legends in 4A, learns that Friendship is Magic and then takes that lesson to his own animated or live-action show.

[tarotx]

3 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

Huh. So maybe Constantine hangs out with the Legends in 4A, learns that Friendship is Magic and then takes that lesson to his own animated or live-action show.

I think they want more supernatural stuff on the CW. Also DC wants to create content for their Web-based network. 

I don't think Constantine Needs to understand friendship. He had friends. It's willing to risk them again but at the same to be able to learn how to understand people need to be able to trust him if they are working as a team. You can't really be a team player if you are willing to throw them under the bus at any given time. Though it's a thin line between character development and changing the character.