Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[FurryFury]

Well, I kinda like the news. None of these characters seem to be very well-known heroes, so maybe the writers will be less inclined to contrive everything in their show to fit some comics storyline or to realize a badly-written character's "destiny". It doesn't even look like there will be a "destined" OTP they've proved once and again they simply cannot write well. AND there is some diversity (although I'd prefer a 50/50 male/female ratio, I'll take what I can get, especially if both girls are warriors and not damsels).

 

So, right now, our hero team is Atom, Guy from the future, shy Latina girl and the street-smart black guy. Sara is likely to end up on the team as well, but may start out as a villain if the Lazarus Pit theory is correct. Stein, if not a part of Firestorm, is probably science advisor/mentor  (although he can be this in either case). And then there's Captain Cold who can be a villain or a reluctant hero-helper or whatever.

I guess there is still place for Firestorm, but wouldn't a third young(ish) white male hero be too much for one show? Oh well, this is Flash/Arrow writers. Of course it wouldn't be too much.

Edited March 9, 2015 by FurryFury

[Kromm]

Well there are potential ways to change the character of Firestorm to be African-American. There's a specific precedent for it in the comics so it wouldn't be an out of the blue race-swap.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not so sure about Booster Gold. Didn't they already have a live-action version of him on Smallville?

He did 1 episode of S10 Smallville.

[tv echo]

With all these superpowers on other shows in the same shared GB/AK/MG universe, Oliver/Arrow is soon going to be the least powerful superhero.  Maybe they will end Arrow after five years.

Edited March 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Is Sara going to come back with super powers (not the Canary cry) and that's why she chooses a new name and joins a new team? Or she going to be the Oliver the group and have no powers or special suit. I suppose she can be the leader because she can be scary without powers, she scared a guy who was in the KGB. 

 

 Caity and Victor Garber being in the spin off was enough for me to check it out, but now I'm interested in the new characters. 

[FurryFury]

With all these superpowers on other shows in the same shared GB/AK/MG universe, Oliver/Arrow is soon going to be the least powerful superhero.  Maybe they will end Arrow after five years.

Well, Batman still manages to be useful in the DCU, so Oliver will be all right too. Although personally, I do prefer the low-key approach to superpowers. I was OK with Mirakuru, but Flash-level stuff is a bit too much for my liking. Maybe the new show will be in the middle of the scale.

[AyChihuahua]

Batman's got quite a few brain cells on Oliver, though. Especially lately.

[FurryFury]

Haha, I knew someone would say it. I'd answer that the heroes' smarts depend on the writers'. I doubt Guggenheim deliberately writes Ollie as stupid.

[AyChihuahua]

Even on a good day for Oliver Bruce Wayne is much, much smarter than he is. Including science/tech stuff, but most importantly strategy and tactics. I believe Bruce Wayne is one of the smartest men in the DCU. He's pretty much constantly playing 4-D chess against the universe.

Oh, and MG has stated flat-out that they deliberately write Oliver as stupid. He said they get a tremendous amount of mileage out of him "having his head up his ass."

Edited March 9, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

I agree, Batman is pretty smart.  And he does it mostly on his own.

 

Having your head up your ass is not the same as stupid though.  I'd say Oliver has a lot of fluid intelligence, being able to plan ahead and yet change tactics when it's needed, as well all those languages he speaks.

 

He's really bad at reading people though, unless it's a matter of life or death.  He keeps making the worst choices (protecting MM, pushing Felicity away, not telling Thea etc.)

[Tangerine]

I'm excited for diversity but I hope they don't go with Tarantula. Catalina was the absolute worst.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Having your head up your ass is not the same as stupid though.  I'd say Oliver has a lot of fluid intelligence, being able to plan ahead and yet change tactics when it's needed, as well all those languages he speaks.

In general I think Oliver is very smart.  They mostly write him as stupid in the middle of the season, or when they're just not yet ready for him to figure things out.  I always think of the tactical smarts and situational awareness of thinking of shooting the fire extinguisher and then knowing exactly where it was behind him when McKenna had him cornered.  But even on his best day he's just nowhere near as smart as Bruce Wayne.

Edited March 10, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[KirkB]

Oliver is smart 

 

quick or prompt in action

having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability
clever, witty, or readily effective, as a speaker, speech, rejoinder, etc.

 

Not wise

 

having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right; possessing discernment, judgment, or discretion.

[foreverevolving]

I don't get why people keep on going with this comparison between Oliver and Bruce in terms of wisdom. I don't think even comic book Oliver Queen is as smart as Bruce, in fact i'm pretty sure 99.9% of the DC heros and villains are not as smart as Bruce. this comparison that continues to crop up is growing tiresome to be honest.

Edited March 10, 2015 by foreverevolving

[BkWurm1]

It's hard not to compare two non powered billionaire superheroes running around and trying to save their city.  The differences are profound, but toss in similar plot lines and yeah, it's so hard not to. 

 

I thinking the spinoff will at least not have an obvious batman comparison, naturally we're not going to avoid comparisons between Stark and Ray though. 

[FurryFury]

this comparison that continues to crop up is growing tiresome to be honest.

 

I don't think people would compare Oliver to Batman as often if the writers didn't continue to borrow storylines from The Dark Knight trilogy. Also, I think I've heard somewhere that comics Green Arrow was influenced by Batman from the get-go.

 

I thinking the spinoff will at least not have an obvious batman comparison

 

Yeah, this is their chance to start from a clean slate. So many new characters, so many new dynamics to establish and play with... I'm almost hopeful (which is stupid and naive, because I know these writers). 

I wonder who will handle the actual show-running, though, after all, both Guggenheim and Kreisberg have enough on their plates.

[Trini]

 

... naturally we're not going to avoid comparisons between Stark and Ray though.

 

That's unfortunate. Because as far as I can tell, their comics counterparts aren't very similar at all.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think people would compare Oliver to Batman as often if the writers didn't continue to borrow storylines from The Dark Knight trilogy. Also, I think I've heard somewhere that comics Green Arrow was influenced by Batman from the get-go.

Yeah, this is their chance to start from a clean slate. So many new characters, so many new dynamics to establish and play with... I'm almost hopeful (which is stupid and naive, because I know these writers).

I wonder who will handle the actual show-running, though, after all, both Guggenheim and Kreisberg have enough on their plates.

More than likely someone already in the writers room will get promoted.

As for the green arrow/batman comparisons, hard to avoid, not only does the show rip off the Dark Knight Trilogy but it's ripping off Batman Comics, Oliver/Ra's shirtless fight scene was right out of Batman #244. Ra's wanting Oliver to be the new Ra's is also a Batman story.

You are correct, in comics GA was a Batman ripoff/clone. That's typical of that era for comics though. They find something that works and try to duplicate it. Vickie Vale (Batman's main LI for 30 years) was a ripoff/clone of Lois Lane.

With all this in mind it's almost impossible to not to make comparisons.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SonofaBiscuit]

Eh.  From MG's tumblr (http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/):

 

deembanton asked:
How involved are you with the writing on the new spin-off ?

Very.

Edited March 11, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[Sakura12]

He's the one that seems to want a hero team up show which is why he ruined Arrow with that. Maybe now that they are making one he'll leave Arrow to write for a show that has nothing but masked heroes. 

[FurryFury]

I don't really care about Arrow without Moira ans Sara and with Laurel as BC, so I'd prefer if he stayed. Maybe a better writer could take the reigns of the spin-off.

[bychance]

 

Yeah, but there's a difference between that kinda anthology series and one like American Horror Story where you have a main cast you have to cater to.

 

I tell you what, if there's really one badass spin-off I love to see which is impossible now because of the movie, is a Suicide Squad with Diggle as the main character. Waller as the shady boss. Then Deadshot, Slade, Sara, Nyssa. Robbert Knepper and Wentworth Miller for the Prison Break reunion.

 

That would have been amazing. But what would Sara and Nyssa be doing there? They're LoA.

[tv echo]

Another indication that CL will be playing Sara --

MG said on tumblr that they still hope to do flashbacks depicting Sara's start with the LOA.  It would now make no sense to show those flashbacks on Arrow.

Edited March 12, 2015 by tv echo

[CabotCove]

Logically I can't see Sara with anyone but Nyssa.

 

 

Nyssa tried to kill Sara and her entire family not to mention her other transgressions to her, If Sara where to get a second chance to life, I think she should learn to love her self more than that and want much better for her self imo. Doesn't have to be a male partner, Nyssa isn't the only other woman who loves women, who can only possibly exist in this universe. This is an ensemble cast she will likely have many other options, male and female. They could become good friends (Nyssa/Sara), Im not convinced it would be the best romantic option for Sara. 

 

I wish Nyssara fans good luck though, I don't buy it but I wont completely "shut the door"  to see if it can work again. Long shot but will see..I still want to see more options for her, and then may the best 'ship win.

 

And what do you suppose it says to the EP's, not to mention Routh and the others, when all the talk/interest seems to be about Caity/Sara?

 

Not much? Bringing back Sara is  controversial for a number of reasons, hence the buzz. And Sara has a long history with Arrow and its fans than Brandon/Ray has at this point.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[kismet]

Well they had Sara in flashbacks when she was still technically "dead" from the gambit, so maybe its more actor availability & willingness. Now that she is in contract with the network again, maybe they can finagle something where before they were dependent on her cooperation which similar to S. Thompson she might have told them no, esp after how they have handled her death. But I do think all spoiler-ish hints that they are dropping indicate that she will be Sara or someone that has very close connection to her.

[Sakura12]

I would rather Sara get a chance to start over too. Even though I like Katrina Law. Let her meet some new people, I would prefer it be a woman but a man could work as long as it's not Ray. Maybe she'll have some chemistry with one of the three new characters. 

 

Since they killed Sara, I find care less and less about her time in the League. We know she trained with them and killed for them, we don't really need flashbacks to see that anymore. 

[Morrigan2575]

Sara was a great character.   Honestly, I hate the idea of Lazarus Pits and death not being real, i think this show has killed off and brought too many characters back already and it's only S3.  However, if I had my choice between AU Sara and Lazarus Sara, I think I'd go with Lazarus, just because it's THE Sara that I know.  Yes there's tons of things they can do with an AU Sara, new backstory, new personality, new powers/skills but I don't know if AU Sara will be as good as Sara or if I'll even like AU Sara as much.

 

As for right now, Sara is the only reason i'm even thinking about watching the spin-off so I would prefer my Sara to a new Sara..if that makes any sense.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[CabotCove]

I think they missed the mark by not having him shrink. It would be different from anything we've seen before and beat Marvel to their shrinking hero.

 

 

It could still be on the table and happen, the shrinking could be his long term arc and "endgame". The Arrow show is not Ray's "real home" ...anymore, but this spin off will be. He can always get more growth and development at home.

 

 

That's unfortunate. Because as far as I can tell, their comics counterparts aren't very similar at all.

 

 

Yeah true but the comparisons between Stark and TV Ray/Atom maybe too premature too. There is still a lot of room for this character to grow and develop. Being compared to Iron man/Tony is nowhere near the worst thing though, he is  an awesome character and hero, it should be quite flattering.  Firestorm was being compared to Human Torch too. They have done far much worse with making Arrow's main star,  a Batman clone. At least Ray's show hasn't started nor in its 3rd season.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Conell

[Sakura12]

I agree with it being ourSara. That way she'll be the connection to the Arrow for crossovers. 

 

With Lazarus pitting Sara, I think the writers or DC realized it was a mistake to get rid of Caity. Sara's death didn't help Laurel get more popular in fact it might have made it worse for her. She's still be compared to Sara and being blamed for the reason Sara's dead. 

[CabotCove]

However, if I had my choice between AU Sara and Lazarus Sara, I think I'd go with Lazarus, just because it's THE Sara that I know.  Yes there's tons of things they can do with an AU Sara, new backstory, new personality, new powers/skills but I don't know if AU Sara will be as good as Sara or if I'll even like AU Sara as much.

 

 

I'm on the side of wanting an AU or Clone Sara, I like the idea of starting over but not being completely "new",  like as an AU or Clone would still have Sara's memories and some quirks etc but also different in other ways. In that way I don't think it would mess Arrow S3 much, yeah it hasn't been that good but I don't want all the time, energy and effort put into it by the writers, fans, actors to be just thrown away just like that.

[catrox14]

I would rather it be LP Sara too. If they play their cards right they could actually have her come back to SC to help Oliver when he needs it and maybe then Laurel can hangup her fishnets and run for District Attorney.

[KirkB]

If they play their cards right they could actually have her come back to SC to help Oliver when he needs it and maybe then Laurel can hangup her fishnets and run for District Attorney.

 

 

They could, but they won't. Considering the lengths they've gone to to get Laurel into the costume in the first place there's no way they're going to get rid of her even if the majority of the audience turns against it (which, let's face it, it hasn't). The EP's clearly love Laurel and want her as the Canary. At this point the only way Laurel will leave Arrow is if she gets a show of her own, and I don't see that happening. As for THIS show, whatever it is, am I right in thinking most people here will he happy having Sara back in any capacity? And is it possible Ray could become a better, more interesting character (for those of you who hate him) if they have time to devote the attention they apparently want to on more or less hie own show? Or is the bigger problem BR?

[Sakura12]

There is no way Laurel is going anywhere. If OurSara comes back then she will be giving up her name to Laurel who has no connection to that name at all, besides "comics" even adding negative connections if Sara's alive. However Sara will have to become someone else because of that. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

I like BR, and I actually like Ray as a character, generally speaking. I'd like him better if he was just Felicity's quirky boss who went to her for help with his suit - it's the romantic business that's messing everything up for me. And it's not even a ship issue, it's just creepy behavior aside, I don't think this "relationship" or whatever brings out good things in either one of them, and it's just generally unpalatable to me because I'm having to read comics to see relationship developments between Oliver and Felicity, two people who have earned those developments over the course of two years, and I'm having to watch her actually get those things on screen with this dude who's only been around for a couple of months. If he'd been around from the start, I think I'd feel differently.

So, remove that issue from the scenario and you've got an eccentric guy who seems to be goodhearted and wants to do good, and it could be interesting. He's good with banter, as long as they keep him on the helicopter keys side of things instead of the Queen Consolidated boardroom in The Calm side of things (BEE-TEE-DOUBLE U). I think BR does fine with what he's been given, and I think if they put him on a show where he could be developed more it could get better. He's not a complete turn off for me, I don't think.

The problem for me is that I'm not really interested in learning anything more about him at this point because I find him a little skeevy and I don't know if I can ever get away from that. Factor in that I'm not really interested in Martin Stein without Ronnie Raymond (I liked Victor Garber's and Robbie Amell's scenes together), and I personally don't care about Sara's return (I'll be honest and say i was attached to her because of what her presence meant for Laurel's storyline - now that Laurel's BC and Sara can't be anymore, I don't really care if she comes back or not) and I don't find Captain Cold to be a particularly enjoyable villain, I won't be watching this show. Although I would tune in for crossovers, depending.

Edited March 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I actually like BR. For me the problem is the relationship between Felicity and Ray. Ray takes the lead in their storyline. Shift him to the 'supporting' character in her storyline and keep him to air quotes and helicopter rides and I would be fine with him. IMO, he will fair better on the spinoff because he is actually a lead on the show.

[dtissagirl]

Palmer's storyline has been weirdly streamlined too. He has no internal conflict whatsoever, and so far, his hero's journey has had zero setbacks. He wanted to build a superhero suit, he did it. The end. They have to give him a whole lot more depth before I'm interested in seeing him headline a superhero team.

[apinknightmare]

Palmer's storyline has been weirdly streamlined too. He has no internal conflict whatsoever, and so far, his hero's journey has had zero setbacks. He wanted to build a superhero suit, he did it. The end. They have to give him a whole lot more depth before I'm interested in seeing him headline a superhero team.

Yeah, this might be my issue with him too, now that you've brought it up. I'm rooting for Oliver because he's constantly swimming upstream (too much at this point), but Ray's just breezing on through. He was even able to fly without incident on his first try. FLY.

He doesn't need a 5-year plan like Oliver to atone for his sins or whatever, because I don't think that everyone needs a particularly dark journey in order to be a 'hero.' I actually liked that he was doing it to combat that feeling of helplessness he had because he watched his fiance die and was unable to do anything about it. But then they dumped that in order to fit in a Raylicity beat, and now his motivation is meh and he's just succeeding all over the place. And I'm not really in it for his struggle, so I guess that's a blessing as far as him being on Arrow is concerned, and that could be something that's explored over on the other show, but it seems like he'll be a hero by the time he leaves Starling City, so...what's left to struggle with?

Edited March 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

I'm inclined to agree with apinknightmare and 10eleven12. My problem with Ray has more to do with the weird relationship with Felicity and the whole "show within a show" thing he's got going on on Arrow. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what he's like away from Arrow and Felicity.

[CabotCove]

I would rather it be LP Sara too.

 

LP? 

[Chaser]

Lazarus Pit Sara

[AyChihuahua]

For me, Brandon Routh is where charisma goes to die.

[Morrigan2575]

Brandon much like Clark Gregg from AoS has that sort of deadpan delivery that makes him a better straight-man then leading man.  I think centering a show around Ray/Brandon could be problematic, however if he's part of an ensemble and gets to play the "normal" man surrounded by crazy it'll work out.   I doubt that's what they're going for but i think that would be their best option

Edited March 12, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tennisgurl]

The constant feeling like the writers are trying to build him up as "Oliver, but without all the damage and baggage, so therefore better" is something I hope they leave behind in the spin-off. If he is going to be a main character, he better get some more conflicts, or at least get more interesting, fast. I wish he had more motivation than "woman I loved died", which is right up there next to "you killed my father, prepare to die!" as far as superhero motivations go.

 

I`m really more interested in the other possible characters, as of now. And I like BR!  

[CabotCove]

Lazarus Pit Sara

 

OK Thanks lol. I was cracking my head trying to figure out what that is.

[BkWurm1]

LP? 

Other alternatives:

 

Long Play Sara!

Latin Percussion Sara!

Libertarian Party Sara!

Lonely Planet Sara!

[FurryFury]

Laurel Plays Sara - in other words, Arrow season 3.

[romantic idiot]

Nyssa tried to kill Sara and her entire family not to mention her other transgressions to her, If Sara where to get a second chance to life, I think she should learn to love her self more than that and want much better for her self imo. 

At the risk of beginning to miss the Buffy morality thread a lot, I have to say that when we look at Nyssa's actions in this regard, we have to realise that she was raised in the LOA. While trying to kill Saran's family is a big deal to us, she wouldn't really think death is that bad. So I hesitate in judging Nyssa's actions without taking her upbringing into account. If we can forgive The Hood's actual killing , surely we can forgive Nyssa's attempted killing? Of course, not easliy, and I think there is a lot of interesting ways to write that story, considering that Sara is hoping to atone for her (perceived) sins as well. 

 

They could, but they won't. Considering the lengths they've gone to to get Laurel into the costume in the first place there's no way they're going to get rid of her even if the majority of the audience turns against it (which, let's face it, it hasn't). The EP's clearly love Laurel and want her as the Canary. At this point the only way Laurel will leave Arrow is if she gets a show of her own, and I don't see that happening. As for THIS show, whatever it is, am I right in thinking most people here will he happy having Sara back in any capacity? And is it possible Ray could become a better, more interesting character (for those of you who hate him) if they have time to devote the attention they apparently want to on more or less hie own show? Or is the bigger problem BR?

 

This is an interesting question. I don't like BR, I think a lot of the weakness of Ray's character comes from BR's shortcomings as an actor, or at least, the fact that BR is not as good as someone needed for this role. Having said that, i wasn't too impressed with Stephen Amell when I watched the first few episodes of Arrow, so my first impressions are in no way sacrosanct. And on the other hand, i still hate Laurel and think KC is terrible. So, I really don't know. 

[FurryFury]

While trying to kill Saran's family is a big deal to us, she wouldn't really think death is that bad.

 

You do realize this is not an excuse, right? Otherwise, we could whitewash every crime committed by a sociopath or a fanatic.

 

I hesitate in judging Nyssa's actions without taking her upbringing into account. If we can forgive The Hood's actual killing , surely we can forgive Nyssa's attempted killing?

 

These are not nearly the same thing. Oliver killed thugs! People who've made an actual choice to work for villains. Yeah, maybe - maybe - some of them didn't know whom they were working for... But they've still probably done some pretty shady stuff while doing this, or had to suspect their bosses weren't the good guys because of their reputation. Nyssa tried to kille Dinah, who was as innocent as they come, without any other motive but revenge over the "crime" of Sara daring to leave her and the life of crime she's come to hate. This is absolutely inexcusable. 

 

Moreover, I'd argue that Nyssa symbolizes the painful past Sara has tried, once and again, to leave behind, the part of her life that she wanted to atone for. After all that had happened, I just can't imagine a happy romantic relationship between these two. Or at least I don't want to. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

I don't want flashbacks of Sara's training with the League I want flashbacks of Sara's return to the league. She must've been so miserable going back to the life she tried to killed herself to get away from. They had Sara say for the first time she was making a choice, that doesn't mean it was the choice she wanted to make. She gave up her happiness and soul to save her hometown. That's why I can't buy Laurel as BC, she's doing everything for selfish reasons. While Sara is willing to sacrifice everything to help others over herself. 

 

I like Nyssa and Katrina Law but I agree if Sara wants to start over and become a better person she needs to leave Nyssa and that life behind. Nyssa was born into that life, she knows no other way. Sara will always be drawn into the darkness of her past if she continues to be with her. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

She must've been so miserable going back to the life she tried to killed herself to get away from. They had Sara say for the first time she was making a choice, that doesn't mean it was the choice she wanted to make. She gave up her happiness and soul to save her hometown.

 

Exactly. This was the moment I knew I was done with Arrow. How could you do something THAT painful to a character and play it off like no big deal? This should have been done similar in tone to The 100 season 2 finale, or Buffy season 2 finale. Not as an "uplifting" scene with Laurel getting the jacket.

Edited March 13, 2015 by FurryFury