Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[KirkB]

I could see Malcolm kidnapping Sara and locking her away somewhere, then paying some random woman obscene amounts of money to alter herself to look like Sara just so he could have Thea kill her and plant Queen DNA on her. All for the sake of getting Oliver to fight Ra's, while keeping the real Sara alive somewhere as potential future leverage against Oliver/Nyssa/the League.

Edited March 2, 2015 by KirkB

[romantic idiot]

Even the lazarus pits need to be used on someone almost or recently dead, so even is Nyssa took her to one, she would have had to steal her out of verdant which we know didnt happen because they buried her body a few weeks after her death. 

This is not canon. Nothing about the Lazarus Pits is cannon, yet. I they can spit on comic canon enough to give us the Black Canary they have, and the Huntress they have, they can jolly well ignore it to ensure that the Lazarus Pits work even on a desiccated corpse.

 

Oliver become's the Demon's Head and resurrects Sara because no one told him that it makes crazy, which is why Nyssa never contemplated it. Or Ra's never told Nyssa, to test her mettle. Problem solved.

Edited March 2, 2015 by romantic idiot

[Starfish35]

I could see Malcolm kidnapping Sara and locking her away somewhere, then paying some random woman obscene amounts of money to alter herself to look like Sara just so he could have Thea kill her and plant Queen DNA on her. All for the sake of getting Oliver to fight Ra's, while keeping the real Sara alive somewhere as potential future leverage against Oliver/Nyssa/the League.

Well it's true that Malcolm likes his insanely convoluted plots.

[BkWurm1]

They have been pushing their Justice theme rather hard, haven't they.  In the absence of a real name I'm just going to refer to the new show as Team Justice.  It would be ironic if after Oliver's complaints about Team Arrow (not that there is one really anymore, sigh) and Team Flash that the network made a Team Justice.  It's a crap name but I'm keeping my expectations low.  Plus for the near future it will be a lot easier to write Team Justice rather than that new show with Palmer, Spy Daddy, Sara?, Cap Cold and heroes to be determined later.

[Matt K]

I tend to view every move The CW makes now through the prism of "their narrowcasting to W 18-35 strategy has failed as a business plan, and their existence as a network literally hinges on drawing new male viewers, which IMHO requires that they work to kill the widespread perception of themselves as such a female-oriented network."  Having said that, going down the path of "who could CL play if not Sara," given that the Arrowverse already has a Huntress and Laurel as BC, and assuming that Diana or any "name" hero from the Batverse is unavailable (i.e., she won't be Barbara Gordon), one woman hero came to mind as being sufficently well-known: Hawkgirl.  Caity could color her hair and they could just finesse the "you look like Sara" issue.

 

I'm actually wondering if this confirms the theory that CW is pretty certain that next season is their last. 

 

As pointed out in this article: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2015/02/24/cw-predictions-special-bubble-watch-conspiracy-edition/366548/ there's a decent chance that CW won't last beyond next year which seemingly is why everything is getting renewed.  My intial thought is that's why we're getting this.  They can mainly stick with the actors they current;y have without needing to actually launch a series and they can package it with both Flash and Arrow for syndication purposes. 

 

That said the fact that they're doing this at all and especially mid-season might lend credence to the opposite.  But this plus their other new show, Tales from the Crypt which can easily be one and done makes me think the CW is worried. 

[Artsda]

I don't see the CW going anywhere. Like UPN and WB before it, it would if anything be rebranded with the same content, Their streaming is what is important to them with the age demo they want. 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't see the CW going anywhere. Like UPN and WB before it, it would if anything be rebranded with the same content, Their streaming is what is important to them with the age demo they want. 

I don't think they can, this isn't (to my knowledge) the same situation.  Back when The WB/UPN Merged it was more about two small struggling networks combining forces to try and become one medium network that could eventually grow to be a Big 5 Network.  That was a straight up merger between WB/CBS, at least that's how I viewed it at the time.

 

In this case, the CW's contract with it's largest affiliate (Tribune) is up after the 2015-2016 season.  If they can't sign a new contract they lose their broadcasting abilities in many (most?) markets, effectively killing the network.  The production companies (WB and CBS) could then take their shows and try to sell them to other networks and/or Netflix but not sure how many would be marketable..

 

All that being said, I don't know how much danger The CW is in at this point, they've made some improvements but I don't know if it's enough or if they're just re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[MarkHB]

I have created a new CW thread in Everything Else TV: Networks for us to continue this particular conversation.  Matt K, that's exactly the article I had seen.

[Shanna]

I could even believe that Nyssa's been faking her grief. She could've been in town with Sara and saw those idiots bury the love of her life in her old grave, dug her up and put in Sara in the Lazarus pit a few hours after her death. They did freeze her to preserve the body and they didn't go through the proper burial rituals so all her organs are intact. Now she has Sara somewhere safe trying to regain her sanity.

Did felicity do some kind of pseudo autopsy or was that a fakey computer simulated autopsy?

I don't know what to make of this spin off except that I hope they bring on more show runners because they can't even handle two shows without one going to hell.

[romantic idiot]

The latter.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, she did a virtual autopsy which at the time sounded odd but then Felicity isn't a doctor so sure, why not (though it would have made more sense to get someone who is to do it)  Still, by not cutting Sara up and dissecting her, one step closer to "plausible" resurrection.  Only mostly dead and all that.  The cold temp worked in Oliver's favor, maybe Sara's stint in the freezer did her a world of good too. 

[ohjoy]

For the clone idea: I think it would be more likely that if they incorporate a Sara clone into the story, the clone will be the one that's alive, rather than the one that Thea killed. It just doesn't seem likely that they would jump through the hoops necessary to make the real Sara alive again story-wise when they can just say, "Someone cloned her. She thinks she's the real thing. Look how much story we can get out of that!"

 

I personally have been hoping against hope that they're just crazy enough to have the Flash's timeline-altering shenanigans explode all over their entire universe of shows, and change up everything about Flash, Arrow, and this new show. As in, Sara could be truly alive again, but she never came back to Starling City [ETA: I mean she never came back the first time, after she first joined the league], which would basically reboot S2 and S3 of Arrow, in addition to S1 of Flash having its own repurcussions to deal with. It's a much less convoluted relaionship stall than the current S3 mess (regardless of which 'ship you're looking for), Ray could still become ATOM through a different (read: less "dead fiance" and more "scientific curiousity") set of circumstances, and all the universes could still be tied together, because they've all been affected by Barry's actions. (That being said, I'm well aware that the things potential ideas I've thought would be interesting to see on screen are light-years away from what MG, AK, and GB evidently consider to be "riveting tv".)

 

 

Yeah, she did a virtual autopsy which at the time sounded odd but then Felicity isn't a doctor so sure, why not (though it would have made more sense to get someone who is to do it)  Still, by not cutting Sara up and dissecting her, one step closer to "plausible" resurrection.  Only mostly dead and all that.  The cold temp worked in Oliver's favor, maybe Sara's stint in the freezer did her a world of good too.

Don't even jest! I swear, if MG actually did something like this and then crowed about "lampshading" or whatever nonsense to pretend he was clever enough to make "good story" out of an unfortunate trope, I might actually put my fist through my tv.

Edited March 3, 2015 by RandomMe

[Sakura12]

For me the AUSara story works the best, it doesn't change what's happening in the current show (despite the fact that they can use a reboot) and if AUSara was never called Canary then Laurel can keep her unearned name. Because if RealSara's alive she should get her name back since she choose it because it means something to her. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

They could have resurrected Sara take up White Canary as her name since she's "born again"

[Sakura12]

Yes, but it still goes with the only reason Laurel took the name Canary was because Sara died. If Sara's alive what reason does she have to keep it? It's not like she's setting the world on fire with her awesome skills as a vigilante. Unless they plan on making resurrected Sara a villain I see no reason why Laurel gets to keep being called Black Canary. 

[Chaser]

Pre-School mentality - If it's yours, but I took it. Its Mine.

[KirkB]

If Sara really is alive, whether Lazarused or otherwise, it doesn't really make any sense for her NOT to come back to Starling and family and friends. The running from the League to keep them safe thing doesn't apply any more since the gang is already in the League's cross hairs and/or might have some say in it's leadership before too long. Even if she had amnesia or something why wouldn't Laurel, Oliver, Quentin or whoever go and get her? The only way I can wrap my head around the whole thing with CL being cast is either she is playing someone who happens to look like Sara but isn't, or else the show is separate from the main storylines of Arrow and Flash, ie Ray shrinks into another world or something.

Edited March 3, 2015 by KirkB

[BkWurm1]

For me the AUSara story works the best, it doesn't change what's happening in the current show (despite the fact that they can use a reboot) and if AUSara was never called Canary then Laurel can keep her unearned name. Because if RealSara's alive she should get her name back since she choose it because it means something to her. 

My only objection to AUSara is opening that can of worms and it's a big one.

 

I can logically understand why RealSara might want to put the Canary name in her past, especially if for "reasons" she was unable to reveal to her family she was alive or maybe even unable to reveal to people around her what her name is.  I guess I still half expect the show to start with some woman named Kate that just looks like Sara only for it to be revealed by the end of the episode that she actually is Sara. 

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if they can get away with starting out by having Caity Lotz apparently playing someone else -- nobody in the new show knew Sara anyway -- and then there's a "is she Sara or not?" mystery set up. Maybe when someone from Arrow shows up mid-way through the pilot.

The clone theory would work better for that, though. The Lazarus Pit is Arrow-dependent, the alternate reality is Flash-. Cadmus could work here as the ~evil group. They even have an already made story to rip-off: on Young Justice, Lex had Cadmus clone Roy, and the clone seriously didn't know he was a clone -- he was programmed not to.

Edited March 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, but it still goes with the only reason Laurel took the name Canary was because Sara died. If Sara's alive what reason does she have to keep it? It's not like she's setting the world on fire with her awesome skills as a vigilante. Unless they plan on making resurrected Sara a villain I see no reason why Laurel gets to keep being called Black Canary.

I agree that but the only reason she got the name and mask was because comics anyway.

So you could easily have Sara choose White Canary because of her resurrection and Laurel decide to use Black Canary for whatever lame ass reason they decide (Which we all know is Because Comics).

It's simple

Laurel: now that you're back guess you'll want to use Canary again

Sara: I don't know, I don't feel like that person anymore I'm different, lighter, all my demons died with me.

Laurel: But you're still Sara, still Canary. You know dad once mockingly called me Black Canary.

Sara: Black Canary? I like it, you should use it

Laurel: Maybe, we'll see. How about you though? You need a name too. We can both be Canary, White and Black.

Bam!

No, it won't make Sara fans happy if they believe she's the ONLY Canary but frankly, having AU!Sara choose a totally different name is just as much of a copout (IMO) because everyone would know it's still Because Comics!

Question: why are people saying that Sara/CL isn't going to interact with Arrow people on the new show?

Edited March 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

The fact that they are bringing Caity back into this universe is a copout. They got rid of her, why bring her back? No matter how it's done it's going be either confusing or stupid. I might go meet her on Sunday even though she won't be able to tell me anything. lol.

[Coop33]

The AU Sara theory works best for me too.  I think that has a lot of story potential, explains how Sara could take up a different name, and makes sense for why Sara just wouldn't be in Starling City all the time. If they were to resurrect our Sara, that would be third time she's come back from the "dead" which seems a little too ridiculous to me (although I shouldn't put ridiculous beyond these show runners). Plus, if they were to do that, they more than likely would use the Lazarus Pits, and I'm not fond of the idea of those being introduced to the show in that way, unless they are destroyed some how immediately afterwards.

 

Ultimately though, I think they will just resurrect our Sara. Or maybe clone her. I know they've spoken some about time travel on the Flash, but we haven't come close to any sort of mention of alternate universes, which, as BkWurm1 said, is a whole other giant can of worms.

 

 

I might go meet her on Sunday even though she won't be able to tell me anything. lol.

 

You must be in Chicago! I'm thinking of going to meet her on Saturday.

[Sakura12]

You must be in Chicago! I'm thinking of going to meet her on Saturday.

 

Yep, no one wants to go with me to such a small con. So I was debating of going by myself for one day to meet her since the I only live 10 minutes from the convention center. 

[BkWurm1]

If they were to resurrect our Sara, that would be third time she's come back from the "dead" which seems a little too ridiculous to me (although I shouldn't put ridiculous beyond these show runners).

 

It could be her thing now, like Daniel Jackson on Stargate SG1!  People can keep a tally of how many times she's died!  It will be like trading cards, mix and match the best deaths:  Pit the thought she was dead vs really was dead vs only flatlined but came back.  They can do webisodes about it or a comic spin off.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Coop33]

 

It could be her thing now, like Daniel Jackson on Stargate SG1!  People can keep a tally of how many times she's died!  It will be like trading cards, mix and match the best deaths:  Pit the thought she was dead vs really was dead vs only flatlined but came back.  They can do webisodes about it or a comic spin off.

 

Yes! She can be the Kenny of the DC Universe. "Who Killed Sara?" could be the mystery every week!

[Sakura12]

We can make a Clue Game!

 

Sara was killed by:

 

Malcolm Meryln, sabotage, in the Queen's Gambit. 

Slade Wilson, drowned, in the Amazo.

Herself, snake venom, in the Warehouse.

Thea Queen, arrows, on the Rooftop

[catrox14]

The fact that they are bringing Caity back into this universe is a copout. They got rid of her, why bring her back? No matter how it's done it's going be either confusing or stupid. I might go meet her on Sunday even though she won't be able to tell me anything. lol.

  It's having their Laurel as BC cake and eating it too.  I will never not think of Caity Lotz as THE Black Canary regardless of Laurel Lance's name. 

[tarotx]

And if the show had Sara as a version of Resurection man, they could have the joke and this issue becomes her thing.

Though I don't think people are into characters they don't have to worry about life or death. That was one of the issues people said they had with Peggy Carter.

[Sakura12]

And if the show had Sara as a version of Resurection man, they could have the joke and this issue becomes her thing.

Though I don't think people are into characters they don't have to worry about life or death. That was one of the issues people said they had with Peggy Carter.

 

I always thought that was a weird complaint. Every main character in any show you will never have to worry about life or death of that character (unless it's a British made show). Oliver is never going to die or stay dead on Arrow, same for Buffy, Rick Castle and Beckett are not going to die on Castle, etc... The only way they will die if they do, is on the final episode of the last season. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

People really said that? That sounds like someone really reaching for an excuse. I don't know. I know there are some people who like stuff like Game of Thrones where anyone can die at any time, but that's not for me, and it's not going to be the case with most broadcast TV, so.....you're really limiting your options here. RME.

[kismet]

I always thought that was a weird complaint. Every main character in any show you will never have to worry about life or death of that character (unless it's a British made show). Oliver is never going to die or stay dead on Arrow, same for Buffy, Rick Castle and Beckett are not going to die on Castle, etc... The only way they will die if they do, is on the final episode of the last season. 

I think modern broadcast TV is moving towards main characters being able to be killed at anytime. Just look at the Good Wife, Scandal, Grey's Anatomy and others. Its becoming more acceptable. But I think you're right if the show's premise revolves around the character like Olivia in Scandal & Oliver in Arrow, those main characters will likely never die unless the show is ending or completely changing directions. But I think any of the other main characters on these shows are potential death targets if the writers want to go bold. Basically, I think everyone on Arrow with the exception of Oliver has the potential to be killed regardless of how popular they are. And if you look at who they have killed since S1, they have taken from the main cast. In an ensemble show, it makes it easier to kill off characters because you just change the focus of the stories. So perhaps that why they want an ensemble cast focus, that way they can change the focus to tell different stories rather than constantly weaving them around one main character journey which is challenging and not always well executed.

[Sakura12]

My response was more for the character that the title is named after. People have said they didn't watch Agent Carter because they know she doesn't die. Which would be the same if we didn't know her history. Her name is in the title, of course she's not going to die. Just like we knew that Buffy wouldn't die, Oliver won't die, Veronica Mars wouldn't die, Richard Castle won't die on Castle. 

[tv echo]

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Media thread or here, but since it's about the spin-off - I wanted to quote the entire article (Robert Dougherty nails it on the head, IMO)...

 

'Arrow's' Transparent Greed For A Ray Palmer Spinoff
By Robert Dougherty Mar 03, 2015 11:37 AM
http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrows-transparent-greed-ray-palmer-spinoff

Edited March 4, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I agree with most of the article.  I have no interest in a Ray spin-off my only interest is Sara/Caity and I'll lost interest really quick if I find out CL isn't playing some version of Sara/Canary.

[kismet]

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Media thread or here, but since it's about the spin-off - I wanted to quote the entire article (Robert Dougherty nails it on the head, IMO)...

 

'Arrow's' Transparent Greed For A Ray Palmer Spinoff

By Robert Dougherty Mar 03, 2015 11:37 AM

http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrows-transparent-greed-ray-palmer-spinoff

Think it could go in the media section as well. Sorta captures a lot of what has made Ray problematic to season 3 of Arrow.

[Sakura12]

I think the fact that hardly anyone is talking about the ATOM/Ray on this spin off, most comments I read are about Lotz's role, Miller and Garber and why Robbie Amell is not included, is the big reason he couldn't get his own show. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

I would agree with that.

[Guest]

Agreed. I've always said BR/ATOM couldn't hold a show on his own. I don't know why, it just didn't feel right. He's definitely more of an ensemble kind of guy. 

 

I don't think I'll be watching this new show at all because I don't really trust the writers anymore and there's like zero diversity in that line up so far. But good luck to them.

[KirkB]

I think Routh might be able to carry his own show with the proper story and supporting cast, but not Ray. Caity was the best thing besides Slade/Manu to come out of season two so I'm not surprised a lot of people are interested in her. Miller as Cold is just fun to watch. I'm not quite sure how Garber as Stein is going to work without Robbie Amell because otherwise what was the point of Firestorm?

[kismet]

Well, personally I will be tuning into the show for Victor Garber first & foremost. Caity Lotz is an added bonus, which Im excited about as well. TBH, its the writer's fault on Arrow for not making RP a more intriguing character. Totally agree with the article that RP has failed to achieve in his far more substantial screen time what BA achieved in 2 episodes. I wanted to know more about BA's life & journey, can't say I feel that way about RP. They could have written him amazing storylines that made you want to know more about him. They could have flashbacked & shown the mirakuru attack, so you could understand his motivation. They could have had him interact with other people in present, still think there was missed opportunities between him & QL. Instead they made him an obstacle to olicity, which does nothing to tell his story. On top of that, his character was essentially Oliver without the trauma or the charm. Im not sure what type of spin-off they had planned in their head when they were writing his storylines, because I can't see any story they were really trying to tell beyond building a suit. But even that could have been more interesting, just look at all the building/repairing a suit scenes that are interesting & funny in Ironman. So they even failed making the building of the suit look cool. But maybe once RP's story is taken out of the hands of MG/Arrow, it will get better. Perhaps, they will just ignore the boredom of his origin story on Arrow & set-up a better one on the show - perhaps one that addresses some of his awkward social behaviors & not just ignores them. BR can act, so I blame the scripts. Hope he gets better in new show.

Edited March 4, 2015 by kismet

[FurryFury]

I'm not quite sure how Garber as Stein is going to work without Robbie Amell because otherwise what was the point of Firestorm?

 

While personally I suspect Robbie's role is yet to be announced because of contract negotiations or something (even if I really, really hope to never see this actor again in anything), Stein could easily be used without being a part of Firestorm. He's a scientist, after all, and a good one. And maybe he'll even have some superpowers left after splitting up with Ronnie.

[Password]

Bravo, Robert. That is a great article. It actually makes me wonder what Jennifer Crusie would've thought of Ray Palmer.

Is Robert Dougherty the only reviewer that isn't particularly fond of Ray?

[kismet]

While personally I suspect Robbie's role is yet to be announced because of contract negotiations or something (even if I really, really hope to never see this actor again in anything), Stein could easily be used without being a part of Firestorm. He's a scientist, after all, and a good one. And maybe he'll even have some superpowers left after splitting up with Ronnie.

I wonder if they are gonna leave Ronnie on the Flash. He seems to fit in there and has good chemistry with the cast. I find he makes Caitlin more tolerable, since the writers are not good with her character yet. I think they work better together as a couple, so it might also provide an organic way to stall the Snowbarry ship if TPTB are concerned about that. It also would make sense that if Ronnie is able to be separate from Stein that he would want to stay in CC with his old friends/family. By having him be on the Flash it also provides an easy way for the shows to crossover. But VG & RA do play well off each other, so that is something to consider. But I wonder if it is a $$ or contract thing, they already have 4 leads, so how many can they add before it gets too bloated or hard to manage?

[Starfish35]

Well they have eight regulars each on Arrow and Flash.

[romantic idiot]

Yes, but it still goes with the only reason Laurel took the name Canary was because Sara died. If Sara's alive what reason does she have to keep it? It's not like she's setting the world on fire with her awesome skills as a vigilante. Unless they plan on making resurrected Sara a villain I see no reason why Laurel gets to keep being called Black Canary. 

 

I see no reason to keep Sara dead just so that Laurel has a 'legit" reason to keep being called Black Canary. I'm willing to swallow whatever reason they give me, to be honest. 

[Morrigan2575]

While personally I suspect Robbie's role is yet to be announced because of contract negotiations or something (even if I really, really hope to never see this actor again in anything), Stein could easily be used without being a part of Firestorm. He's a scientist, after all, and a good one. And maybe he'll even have some superpowers left after splitting up with Ronnie.

Oh yeah. I fully expect Robbie Amell will get announced soon, they're probably still working out the contract details.

[FurryFury]

I wonder if they are gonna leave Ronnie on the Flash. He seems to fit in there and has good chemistry with the cast

 

Well, I hope they are going to leave him in a grave (after nobly sacrificing himself in s1 finale or something). He has zero chemistry with Caitlyn and makes her as boring as he is. With others, at least there's some sort of dynamic, but with him - nothing. No idea why they fell in love or what they find attractive in each other, nothing. Ronnie is basically an empty, personality-less placeholder. Maybe this will change, but I don't have much hopes.

 

Also, if they add another guy to the cast that's already 75% male, I'll be hella pissed. And if any guy should be added, make it Pied Piper, at least he had a memorable personality.

Edited March 4, 2015 by FurryFury

[kismet]

Well if they are gonna add more regular cast members, I think they should try to be a little more diverse with casting. More females & less white males would be nice. The comic book world and life in general is filled with so many options.

 

Its not that I'm against a big ensemble, if they all have a part & interesting character to play. RA would just add to the Firestorm story, he doesn't bring anything new to the story or add a substantial skill to the team. So in my mind that does not expand the story it just bloats the cast. Which is why I can see him guesting or being specially featured on the Spin-off, but don't need to see him as a regular member of the cast.

 

I wish they would release more details about what this group of Flarrow cast-offs are gonna be doing because that would give us some direction as to what to speculate on. We don't even have a working title yet.

[Starfish35]

Well if they're going to stick to the Arrow/Flash pattern, they could add four more regulars. But yes, I'd like to see them use that space to add more diversity.

But I'm not a fan of Pied Piper - I just keep feeling like I'm looking at Harry Potter for some reason.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I think adding Katrina Law would help fill the role of another female and POC. Or add Vixen after her webseries ends. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Sakura12