Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Sakura12]

I don't Catiy can say anything. She's only been vocal after the fact. It's still a job. She may be popular but she doesn't seem to have much power on LoT as evidentent from her talk on SA's podcast. Or she's more interested in directing and using what power she has for that. 

We did see an interview recently where she did mention wanting a storyline for Sara that doesn't revolve around her love life. But most of her interviewers want to talk about Avalance or the craziness of LoT, not about Sara as a character. The only one that really didn't was Amell's. 

[Starfish35]

I think/hope we’ll be able to tell after the finale next week.  I don’t think they would make Caity pretend for months that she’s still going to be around next season if she’s not going to be.  Whatever might happen, I don’t think they would do that to her again, and after listening to her talk about filming her death scene in Arrow and then having to go to SDCC and pretend everything was good, I’m not sure she would do it again.   

And truthfully, if Sara’s not the one abducted, I don’t think she’s going anywhere.   So....we’ll see.   I hope once next week’s finale airs, I feel very foolish for getting so worked up about it.    It’s just...the combination of the season 6 description coming out along with last week’s episode being extremely disconcerting from a Sara fan perspective, and it just all kind of blew up in my head that the whole abduction thing would be the perfect way to write her out if they really wanted to.  Call it residual Arrow trauma.   Fortunately there’s not many days left to worry about it. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Starfish35

[blackwing]

The absence of the mention of Charlie and Astra in the press release does make it seem like one or both of them are not returning.  That'd be too bad, I like both of them.  Although I feel like they've never really utilised Charlie much at all... she had shapeshifting powers that were occasionally used but she's never been a huge part of the team.  Then they turned her into Clotho and I guess she has had a bigger role this season.

Frankly I wish they would just bring back Amaya... but I guess they decided the special effects were too expensive?

It does seem like they are going to continue to forcefeed us the "Co-Captains For Life" mantra... I don't want to give up on the show because of one character.  I really despised Ciara Renee as Hawkgirl and the show seemed to do its best to make her the special snowflake of the early seasons.  Now it's evident that the special snowflake is Ava, and I will have to just get over it.

Sounds like this season will end in a cliffhanger so they won't even resolve the Zaris and Behrad.  The quote above says there's no room for both Zaris and Behrad, there can only be one.  Yet the press release mentions both Zari and Behrad.  I wonder if they are going to share an existence?  The other one will be in the totem and they switch off as needed?  

[Sakura12]

Charlie and Sara are the top contenders for being abducted because they clearly don't have any real plans for them.

I think it's Sara because she'd be the one fans would care most about and the one the writers care least about. Sara's abduction raises the stakes for all the other characters including their favorite Ava and means they don't have to think of something for Sara to do for a few episodes. 

Charlie is probably leaving after this season as well. 

[MarkHB]

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

The writers have established that Zari 1.0 and 2.0 can’t co-exist, and Zari and Behrad can’t co-exist,

No they haven't. Zari isn't a doppelganger, she's essentially a brand new identical twin created by divine intervention. There was nothing inherent to anything in Behrad's death. The only person who has been established as needing to be removed from existence per the show's rules is Lita, an aberration like Stein's daughter, but I doubt they'll remember that any time soon (and I don't really want them to).

Edited May 29, 2020 by MarkHB
Prof. Stein's name wasn't Arron

[Delphi]

4 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

No they haven't. Zari isn't a doppelganger, she's essentially a brand new identical twin created by divine intervention. There was nothing inherent to anything in Behrad's death. The only person who has been established as needing to be removed from existence per the show's rules is Lita, an aberration like Arron's daughter, but I doubt they'll remember that any time soon (and I don't really want them to).

Since Lily the writers or the team it seems to have actively stopped caring about aberrations in the time line unless their causing super negative effects.

[Aeryn13]

Since OG!Zari's underlying story always was "at some point I want to save my family", I wonder if they are going for her ultimately sacrificing herself for them. She did sacrifice herself last Season but that was for a different cause.

Now if the show could finally explain to me why OG!Zari's family, the Tomaz, clearly were a good 15-20 years later in the timeline than nu!Zari's family and have a different name? Or did they already and I missed it?

[MarkHB]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now if the show could finally explain to me why OG!Zari's family, the Tomaz, clearly were a good 15-20 years later in the timeline than nu!Zari's family and have a different name? Or did they already and I missed it?

I don't think it's been mentioned in the show, but I've seen elsewhere that they changed it in the original timeline because Tomasi was too Persian (or Arab, not sure what the character's ethnicity is) and therefore unsafe in the nightmare world ARGUS was running.

[Aeryn13]

55 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

I don't think it's been mentioned in the show, but I've seen elsewhere that they changed it in the original timeline because Tomasi was too Persian (or Arab, not sure what the character's ethnicity is) and therefore unsafe in the nightmare world ARGUS was running.

But nu!Zari`s name is "Tarazi", that`s not a change in terms of ethnicity. Mostly I`m confused why adult Zari and Behrad are now contemporaries of the other characters when originally they were adults (at least Zari was) 10? years or so in the future. OG!Zari even once pointed out her young mother and her kid self to Ray while they were in present times. Then something changed with kid!Zari and dragons and presto, the whole family moved back in time and ages. This show seriously broke my understanding of time.  

[Delphi]

Blame it on crisis... or Barry. 

[MarkHB]

15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But nu!Zari`s name is "Tarazi", that`s not a change in terms of ethnicity. Mostly I`m confused why adult Zari and Behrad are now contemporaries of the other characters when originally they were adults (at least Zari was) 10? years or so in the future. OG!Zari even once pointed out her young mother and her kid self to Ray while they were in present times. Then something changed with kid!Zari and dragons and presto, the whole family moved back in time and ages. This show seriously broke my understanding of time.  

OK, I got her new name wrong. Tomaz was supposed to be the "safe" version in the original timeline, at any rate.

We never saw when they picked up Behrad in the new timeline, but was there a timestamp in episode 2 when they went back to his home and picked to NuZari? Because I don't think the show has said they're contemporaries with us, and I just assumed they picked Behrad up in the future at some point.

[Starfish35]

22 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

I just assumed they picked Behrad up in the future at some point.

I think you’re right.  Heyworld happened in 2019/2020, so adult Zari and Behrad come from the 2030s (I’m not exactly sure how old little!Zari was when Heyworld happened).

Edited May 31, 2020 by Starfish35

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, MarkHB said:

OK, I got her new name wrong. Tomaz was supposed to be the "safe" version in the original timeline, at any rate.

We never saw when they picked up Behrad in the new timeline, but was there a timestamp in episode 2 when they went back to his home and picked to NuZari? Because I don't think the show has said they're contemporaries with us, and I just assumed they picked Behrad up in the future at some point.

I can't remember if there was a time stamp. But if it was the future, they really didn"t put any effort into differentiating from present time. At least throw in some tech gimmicks or something like that. 

But that would make it at least a bit less confusing to me if the family is still supposed to be from the future.

[marihunc]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can't remember if there was a time stamp. But if it was the future, they really didn"t put any effort into differentiating from present time. At least throw in some tech gimmicks or something like that. 

But that would make it at least a bit less confusing to me if the family is still supposed to be from the future.

There was a time stamp when Nate went with Behrad and met NuZari: Washington D. C. 2044. And the news flash about Zari's perfume causing loss of smell was from 2045. So they're still from the future. 🙂

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, marihunc said:

There was a time stamp when Nate went with Behrad and met NuZari: Washington D. C. 2044. And the news flash about Zari's perfume causing loss of smell was from 2045. So they're still from the future. 🙂

Thanks. That went right over my head.

[MarkHB]

Season Finale Episode Photos.

So, looking at that last one, it seems they're facing:

• The old guy who says "It's..." at the start of Monty Python's Flying Circus
• Custer
• Marie Antoinette (is Courtney back for this?)
• Rasputin maybe? (behind Marie)
• Caesar
• the Fourth Doctor
• Jack Black
• Stalin by way of Mr. Bean

Any other guesses?

[MarkHB]

I never did figure out who that Jack Black-looking guy was supposed to be, unless that was Manson.

So, since pretty much everyone had "Sara is the one who gets abducted," the tiebreaker for the pool is "Charlie sings a punk version of Mr. Parker's Cul-de-Sac."  Did anyone have that? 🙂

[lurker22]

On 5/20/2020 at 6:43 PM, Starfish35 said:

But the more I think about it, the more Sara being the one to be abducted fits.  Which...ok.  If she still stays a series regular, this could be good, and be a way to give her the storyline we’ve been wanting for her.  But....it could also very easily be Rip and Season 2 all over again.  

Wow. You're actually right! Sara is the one abducted. And here I was loving how everyone is calling Sara 'Captain' (more than I was expecting, tbh), but I guess it was all a setup for Captain Sharpe in S6. The writers are clearly going all out creating reasons to legitimize Ava's captaincy.

I hope getting abducted doesn't mean we don't see Sara at all (because if they want to, Sara interacting with the aliens could be interesting, and Ava wouldn't be there too), but after the last 3 seasons, I'm not holding my breath.

Edited June 3, 2020 by lurker22

[Starfish35]

I haven’t seen the episode yet, but yeah.  I heard about Sara. ☹️  I’m honestly not sure how to feel right now.  I was kind of expecting an announcement regarding Caity Lotz’s change of status after the show aired, assuming she was the one abducted.  But so far nothing.  So either they’re going to drag it out for awhile, or she really isn’t going anywhere and I’m worried for nothing.

This feels like season two/three of Arrow all over again, when I got so upset over Sara giving Laurel her Black Canary jacket and going back to the LoA, but then convinced myself over the summer that I had overreacted and she was still going to be around for awhile, only to have her shot full of arrows and fall off a roof in the season premiere.  😭  I just....I can’t do this again. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Starfish35

[Featherhat]

I feel your worry a lot. 😬 However getting abducted by aliens doesn't have to last months. (Famous last words). It could like the dinosaurs that gets cleaned up immediately and Rip "leaving" only to be reintroduced right away. Or more likely like the reintroduction of Maisie as Charlie or the time Amaya "left" only to show up in ep 2 or the introduction of Zari 2.0. Worst case scenario she's Rip in S2 but I don't think so. 

The can show her on the ship trying to escape or more likely crazily bonding with one. And it gives CL time for directing or the crossover or whatever without having to put Sara in a coma again. 

With MRS actually leaving I don't think they'd have CL pseudo leave unless she wanted to but I might be very wrong. And COVID might have thrown a lot of plans for next season up in the air.

[tarotx]

Worry comes naturally.

When you watch the end of Arrow s2 and have Caity at Comic Con, as if she was part of the Arrow cast, just for them to literally throw her character off the roof into the trash and then a few episodes in, see that they literally frigged her, yeah worry comes naturally. Imo.

And LOT has been forcing Ava into the captaincy all season. Now Sara is literally gone. What a coincidence.

And Phil Klemmer doesn't give me any confidence. Even goes into Ava when Asked about if Nate will morn Zari 1.0. He won't have time because he will have comfort Ava. Oh he says Sara and Ava are like the parents of the Legends but for Phil, "With one parent gone, I like the idea that Nate is a bit of a goofball and a bit of bro sometimes, but that he's really gained some real wisdom and he would be able to support what's missing". 

Neither of the interviews Phil did, talk about where Sara will be and do while being kidnapped or how she might feel. And now having to wait almost a whole year, I'm just a totally unamused fan.

 

[tv echo]

Legends of Tomorrow boss unpacks finale's two 'bittersweet' exits, teases season 6's aliens
By Chancellor Agard June 02, 2020
https://ew.com/tv/legends-of-tomorrow-finale-maisie-richardson-sellers-exit/ 

Quote

Below, EW chats with co-showrunner Phil Klemmer about the finale's many twists and what's to come in the alien-focused sixth season.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Each year you guys deliver these wild finales. How did writing this season's finale compare to previous ones?
PHIL KLEMMER: I don't know if it's got the most moving parts, but we had to say goodbye to two characters. We knew that Maisie was looking to leave the show, and we knew that we had to say goodbye to Zari 1.0. So it does become a real math equation, making sure all the stories get their due. Then there's also that panic moment where you're like, "Have we made it fun enough? Have we made it outlandish enough?" Because you never get more than 42 minutes. I think we had that 11th-hour panic, "Is it too gloomy? Is it too heart-wrenching? Oh man, Sisqo to the rescue!" Just having that Smell performance at the end. I think that's the trick of how you can make things both really emotional and really delightful at the same time and not have it feel completely discordant. I don't know, it makes me hope that next year we can make a finale just totally simple and small-scale, because they are really hard to do.

So just to confirm: Was this actually Maisie's last episode, or is she simply returning as a different character next year like Tala did?
Maisie's got a career she's pursuing now. We would love to have her back at any occasion, but at the same time we're just thrilled to see what she has planned for herself as a filmmaker. We've been talking to her for years now about what her sort of five-year plan was, and she has more direction and ambition as a twentysomething than certainly I do as a fortysomething. She's like a force to be reckoned with, and we just wanted to not stand in the way of all the things she wants to do. Man, we'd love to have her back for a little check-in, but also we're super-excited just to see where she goes with her career.

Did you know she was leaving the show when the season began?
We knew this would be Maisie's [final season] well over a year ago, which is great because it allows you to have everything be working toward that point of separation. Man, when she takes the mic at the punk club, it's really wonderful! It's nice when you can handle it as gracefully as we could, because it's super-bittersweet.
*  *  *
Talk to me about how you chose between Zari 1.0 and Zari 2.0.
It wasn't until we had seen Tala performing against herself in the totem that we realized how different the two characters were. It was just kind of theoretical, but once we saw her do it, we were like, "Oh man, we have to mine this a little bit more deeply." It is such a shame that technically that's such a difficult thing to pull off because if not for that, I'd have 'em both on the show. I'd keep 'em because I find them both so delightful. Obviously that's why we could hardly decide which one would go back in the totem at the end of this episode, because we love 'em equally.

Was the decision to put Zari 1.0 back in the totem only due to budgetary reasons? How did you pick which Zari to keep around?
It would probably kill Tala Ashe to do all of those makeup changes constantly and having the poor camera crew do little motion-control tricks and split-screens and all the rest of it — it's tremendously painstaking, so yeah. I guess the thing is, we really didn't get to explore much of the Behrad-Zari 2.0 brother-sister relationship. In the beginning, it was a little contentious and then Zari 2.0 kind of worked her way into the Legends' hearts, but then Behrad died. They haven't really existed in that bro-sis [place]; like, I want some bickering siblings on this show. That was the promise of bringing Behrad onto the show. We haven't given them a chance to just exist as co-equal adult siblings, and that's really fascinating to me — like how people bring their baggage from their childhood. Even when you're an adult, it's just like a weird thing you share with your sibling. They can take you back 20 years in an instant, and just the way it can be the most powerful bond and the most fractured one as well. I guess that's why we decided to keep 2.0, because she's the one who knew Behrad her entire life. I just want to get them to that neutral space and see how they deal with sharing a totem. You know, figure out what version of Wonder Twin powers are.

Why did you decide not to pair up Zari 2.0 and Nate romantically?
At first, we really thought we were going to explore this romance between Nate and Zari 2.0, but then we realized that's kind of screwed up. You don't fall in love with the physical embodiment of a person. Yeah, geez, he's certainly going to be attracted to Zari 2.0, but she's a completely different person based on her different experiences. That was a real epiphany to us. We had those moments where they would be intrigued by one another, but we're like, "That's not how love works." Having Zari 1.0 make her appearance and having that connection with Nate is proof: Yes, the other version of you was kind of like a mirage, and now that I've got the real you back there's no substitution.

Nate has no lost so many people: Amaya, Zari, his father, his grandfather, Ray. In season 6, how are things looking for him? Is he in store for a win of some sort?
[Laughs] Not that he's gonna give up on love, but with Sara being kidnapped by aliens at the end of the finale, you can imagine that Ava's gonna be in a rough spot starting next season and it seems like Nate is uniquely qualified to be there [for her] having experienced so much loss himself, and giving Ava the strength to believe that her separation from Sara won't be forever. I really like the idea that Nate can be kind of that platonic, I don't know, like a stand-in? Again, I always think about the Legends as a family, and Sara and Ava are clearly the parents. With one parent gone, I like the idea that Nate is a bit of a goofball and a bit of bro sometimes, but that he's really gained some real wisdom and he would be able to support what's missing.

When you were looking at season 6 and thinking, "We've done aberrations, anachronisms, encores, magical creatures. What should we do next?" what made aliens, and I hate this pun, the next frontier for you guys?
I think we like them because on the surface they were so stupid. You get to this fatigue at the end of a season where your mythology becomes very complicated and your bad guys' plans, you know, take a lot of explanation and they become a little heady when you start talking about free will and Fates, and you're just looking for a palette cleanser. To think about little green men with laser guns who just want to rule the world, you know, Marvin the Martian kinda shape, you're like, "Yes, that's what we need!" Not having to understand who our villains are on any kind of emotional scale means we can focus on the emotional stories of our characters, but then it's just a story of how do we kick these guys' asses.

I'm sure, guaranteed, that we'll find a way to humanize and find the emotional complexity of Marvin the Martian [laughs], and by the time we get to the finale, we'll have to spend like half our time realizing they weren't so bad, they were just misunderstood. At this moment, we want to keep it real simple so that we can find the complexity with our characters. We'll totally screw it up, I'm sure.

Edited June 3, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Legends of Tomorrow star won't be returning as series regular for season 6
Jess Lee   June 3, 2020
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a32750469/legends-of-tomorrow-charlie-maisie-richardson-sellers-exit/ 

Quote

The finale ended with Sara Lance taken by aliens, setting up the sixth season.

"After one of their own is abducted by a ruthless alien, this new mission becomes personal," reads the official synopsis for season 6.

"They must recruit a new Legend, a woman who was abducted by aliens when she was a child and supposedly imbued with powers that will help the team defeat their intergalactic foes."

Edited June 3, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Legends Boss on Finale's Zari Dilemma, [_____]'s Abduction and That Cameo
By Vlada Gelman / June 2 2020
https://tvline.com/2020/06/02/legends-of-tomorrow-recap-season-5-finale-episode-15-sara-abducted/

Quote

Below, Klemmer talks about the space forces that took Sara, the writers room’s big Zari dilemma and the “terrifying call” he had to make to Sisqó.

TVLINE | Sara being abducted is certainly a dramatic way to end the season, and thanks to The CW’s official synopsis for Season 6, we actually know a little bit about who took her. But what do you want to share about next season’s Big Bad and what they want with Sara?
Obviously, we want to live in a different kind of genre in the same way that mythological creatures was a fun playground. We definitely wanted to get into something like a little more B-movie creature feature. We got pretty hardcore into mythology with the Fates at the end of this [season]. We’re just trying to unburden ourselves by having something really fun and visceral. The nice thing about space aliens: When you do them the way that we intend to do them, it’s not like you have to spend half the episode getting to know the creatures. It’s sort of like our zombie episode: The great thing about a zombie episode is everybody knows what a zombie episode is. The shorthand allows you to spend the time exploring the dynamics of your actual characters. So I guess doing something that was, at least on the surface, very simple was appealing to us, because it was an opportunity for next season just to focus on our actual Legends.

TVLINE | Just to clarify, are these different aliens from the Dominators we met in the crossover?
These are totally, totally different. [The Season 6 premiere], it’s effectively a premise pilot explaining who these aliens are. We wanted to come up with sort of a surprising variety of them. We wanted to shape the season to lean into kind of a B-movie creature feature and low-budget ’80s [productions]. We wanted it to be kind of romp-ish. We didn’t want our aliens, at least in the beginning, to be too complicated. We, really, were inspired by things like They Live and Mars Attacks!, things that are kind of outlandish. This season got very, very emotional, and we want to counter-balance that with something that feels like a little bit frothy and trashy, I guess.

Edited June 3, 2020 by tv echo

[benteen]

Sara is the parent of the team.  Ava is her girlfriend who no one listens to and always screws up.  She is and never will be the captain. 

[Starfish35]

3 hours ago, tarotx said:

Neither of the interviews Phil did, talk about where Sara will be and do while being kidnapped or how she might feel. And now having to wait almost a whole year, I'm just a totally unamused fan.

Yeah I noticed that too. 😠 He just completely avoided saying anything about Sara herself whatsoever.  With TVLine he completely ignored the part about what the aliens want with Sara and just talked all about why they want to do aliens next season. With EW, he talked all about how Sara’s abduction will affect Ava (like I care 🙄), and also Nate, but not a word of how it will affect Sara herself.  This whole “Sara? Sara who?” thing is not at all filling me with confidence. 😭

Edited June 3, 2020 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I feel your worry a lot. 😬 However getting abducted by aliens doesn't have to last months. (Famous last words). It could like the dinosaurs that gets cleaned up immediately and Rip "leaving" only to be reintroduced right away. Or more likely like the reintroduction of Maisie as Charlie or the time Amaya "left" only to show up in ep 2 or the introduction of Zari 2.0. Worst case scenario she's Rip in S2 but I don't think so. 

The can show her on the ship trying to escape or more likely crazily bonding with one. And it gives CL time for directing or the crossover or whatever without having to put Sara in a coma again. 

And I get that, and I’d love to believe that - I would.  But....history and the recent trend of the show and the attitude of the writers toward Sara....none of that helps reassure me.   

Part of me wonders whether they haven’t set up this stealth exit for Sara since they know she’s the most popular character and they don’t want to deal with the outrage.  

[Featherhat]

You know, I really have no idea because yes, recent trends in the show and the Arrowverse in general regarding characters and actors have left me somewhat baffled and curious about BTS stuff.

I have no idea why they'd want to potentially have much less Sara if CL is willing to stay, especially as MRS has left and all the stuff with BR and CF leaving when Sara is genuinely very popular. I don't know why PK is all about Ava when yes, JMC is a good actress but the character is nothing special and not a good captain.

I am really worried that this is at best a Rip S2 situation (without a scheduling conflict) and a soft exit at the end of the season but I can also see it being re introduce Sara in ep 3 situation. Though obviously by then Ava will have proven her captain skills. 🙄

I am just trying to be positive because it's a long time until filming will start up again and we can even start the "is Caity in Vancouver or not?" game. And pulling an Arrow S3 on her again would be cruel. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Featherhat

[Sakura12]

I wish I could be optimistic, but the way they've treated Sara these past 2 seasons, I'm not. Her storyline turned out to be nothing more then to push Ava into the Captain role and now they actually got rid of her so Ava can be the full time Captain. 

I have a feeling we won't see Sara with the Aliens until 1 episode where we will. I will only hope that Sara falls in love with an Alien that identifies as Male or Female or whatever they use as identifiers, any of those works for me, so she can be free of Ava. 

[lurker22]

If I actually have any confidence in the writers, I would be excited about this alien abduction storyline, because we could see how Sara handles the abduction, even though this isn't her first time, or even second. And why/what the aliens want with her could be interesting too. And that was exactly the question PK was asked in that interview. And unsurprisingly, he sidestepped it and completely ignored Sara. He's way more excited about the aliens than the most popular character on his show.

And it's clear this storyline is going to be told through Ava's POV. We're going to see how she's emotionally affected by it, how she rises above it to lead the team and becomes the best captain ever, and how she builds a strong friendship with Nate and possibly Micky. Sara who?

I think it's most likely Sara will be missing for the first few episodes. Maybe Caity's directing, maybe not (it wouldn't be the first time Sara is sidelined for no real reason). I don't even care the new season will only air a year later, since it's going to be Ava's season.

[Starfish35]

TVGuide interview with Phil Klemmer, and wow, they actually got him to talk about Sara (sorry, I’m feeling very cynical today).

Legends of Tomorrow Boss Explains How He Convinced Sisqo to Make That Bizarre Cameo

Quote

But in true Legends fashion, Sisqo's unexpected appearance was just the tip of the iceberg. The hour also featured a stellar rock performance by Charlie (Maisie Richardson-Sellers), who won't be returning for Season 6, and Sara (Caity Lotz) being swept up by a mysterious blue light. While we don't yet know whyshe's been kidnapped, Klemmer revealed what Sara and the rest of the Legends will be dealing with next season.   

"She has been taken by space aliens, and they had a very particular design on Sara Lance," he explained. "She's just not your average Jane on the street. She's in for a gnarly ride, but more importantly, the Legends are in for a gnarly ride because they have really grown to rely on her — especially Ava. It's going to be, as always, a mashup of some very silly, goofy genres and some hopefully powerful, personal, emotional stories next season."

One of those personal stories will include Nate working past yet another heartbreak after Old Zari (Tala Ashe) decided to return to the totem in order to save her brother Behrad (Shayan Sobhian). It's the latest in a long list of heartaches that also includes Amaya (Richardson-Sellers), who was forced to return to her village, and his best friend Ray Palmer (Brandon Routh) leaving to start a new life with Nora Darhk (Ford).

"I don't know why we keep breaking Nate's heart," Klemmer said. "I guess there is something sadistic about taking a handsome fellow like Nick Zano and just making him the most unfortunate fool. I think he maybe will have learned his lesson [next season]… I think he's probably just given up [on romantic relationships]. He needs to pursue some platonic relationships."

Nate might be putting his love life on pause in Season 6, but it looks like Zari and Constantine (Matt Ryan) will be forging ahead as a couple when the series returns with new episodes. But putting two strong-willed characters together is a lot easier said than done. Despite their undeniable chemistry on screen, Klemmer admits that writing their relationship has been extremely difficult and has left the writers' room almost divided.  

"It's really hard to break stories because when you have them fight, who's supposed to win? We talk ourselves into circles," Klemmer added. "We as the writers are actually having a fight with them as our avatars, and everybody will choose their avatar and they'll be like, 'No, John looks weak. That can't happen.' It's like, 'No, Zari comes out looking weak.' 'Well, John's not going to change.' 'Well, Zari's not going to change.' This goes on for hours and days and you're like, 'Oh my God, I feel like I'm in a relationship. I feel like I'm in a toxic relationship, but I can't get out of it because it's so alluring.' We're basically, as a [writers'] room, living their romance. It's the best thing and it's tearing us apart."

 

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

She's in for a gnarly ride, but more importantly, the Legends are in for a gnarly ride because they have really grown to rely on her — especially Ava.

You know, this part really annoys me.  I mean, I’m sorry guys, I know I’m in a rotten mood today.  But...wow.  Apparently for PK, what happens to Sara isn’t nearly as important as its impact on Ava.  🙄 I mean, we already kind of figured that out, but way to come right out and say it. 😡

[Starfish35]

Also, someone posted this clip on Tumblr, but didn’t give a source for it, and Google is failing me.  @tv echo, would you be able to find a source for this? I’m not sure where else to look. Found! Thank you, @tarotx!

Edited June 3, 2020 by Starfish35

[blackwing]

18 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

You know, this part really annoys me.  I mean, I’m sorry guys, I know I’m in a rotten mood today.  But...wow.  Apparently for PK, what happens to Sara isn’t nearly as important as its impact on Ava.  🙄 I mean, we already kind of figured that out, but way to come right out and say it. 😡

I agree.  Ohs noes!  The absence of Sara will really cause Ava heartbreak in Season 6.  How on earth will she cope?  Especially as everyone looks to her to fill the void caused by Sara's disappearance!  She was just becoming comfortable with the idea that she is a clone and now THIS!  Poor Ava!  Is she going to be the strong woman we all know she is?  Or will it be a bumpy ride for Captain Ava?!

Pffffftttttttt.

I really hate the direction this show has gone.  Despite my utter dislike of Ciara Renee and my annoyance at Victor Garber and Mushmouth Franz Drameh, I really miss the team from the earlier seasons.  I miss seeing Captain Cold and Heat Wave as a fire and ice duo.  I miss the regular use of powers.

I like Tala Ashe but I gladly would have loved to have kept both Zaris and gotten rid of Behrad.  I really hate the way Behrad uses the air powers, it's so theatrical and over the top.  Reminds me of the ridiculousness when Laurel Lance first got her canary cry and she would gape her mouth wide open and bob her head back and forth like a sprinkler.

I'm interested to see who this "new Legend" is going to be, but right now I don't have a whole lot of interest in seeing Season 6: Ava Ascendant.

Edited June 3, 2020 by blackwing

[tarotx]

12 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Also, someone posted this clip on Tumblr, but didn’t give a source for it, and Google is failing me.  @tv echo, can you find a source for this?

https://www.tvinsider.com/936828/legends-of-tomorrow-season-5-finale-season-6-preview/

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, tarotx said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/936828/legends-of-tomorrow-season-5-finale-season-6-preview/

Thank you!!!  That does sound more positive for Sara; hopefully it isn’t a misdirect.  I’m still skeptical, but if they actually do follow through on “following her independent of the team”, that could be a good thing.  I’m just wary of whether they’ll actually follow through or whether they’ll be more interested in the trials and tribulations of Captain Sharpe and crew. 🙄

More non-Sara related spoilers from that interview:

Quote

Who's Zari Now?

With the original version returning to the totem so brother Behrad (Shayan Sobhian) can live, it sounds like Tala Ashe's hilariously vapid second take on the character, affectionately known as Zari 2.0, is here to stay. "I think it does. I think it does," states Klemmer, explaining that maintaining both characters would have been cruel and unusual for both the actress and the crew. "They would just murder and Tala wouldn't murder me," he jokes before assuring us that "we'll find ways to bring Zari 1.0" for some visits.

Charlie's empty seat on the Waverider will be filled by an unlikely Legend. 

Thanks to the finale's closing shot of Sara (Caity Lotz) being zapped by a ray of light and drawn up into the sky, "you know, we're going into the world of aliens," Klemmer says. "So we are looking for an expert." No casting has happened yet, but the showrunner reveals that the idea is to bring on somebody, most likely a woman, who's a little bit more working class and self-taught. "We've had a lot of professors and PhDs and eggheads," he continues. "We want somebody who will be sort of freaked out by coming onto the ship."

Oh, and those aliens? Think less Kryptonian and more Xenomorph.

"As far as the aesthetic, I would like to lean into the B-movies of the '70s and '80s like They Live and Mars Attacks," hints Klemmer of the species we'll first learn about in the Season 6 opener. "I want to do trashy genre in a classy way." And they will be mean. "They will be pretty gnarly...it would be nice if our space aliens could be, by and large, irredeemable."

Edited June 3, 2020 by Starfish35

[Screamnastics]

Meh. That doesn't sound encouraging to me at all, really. Sounds like they're going to double down on the issues I had with this season and her non-existent disability story. She's isolated from anyone who cares about her, again, while Ava's able to solidify ties with veteran characters and possibly create bonds with new characters Sara doesn't get to interact with, again, and instead of giving her a POV and emotions it's more of the Strong Female Character badass chick schtick they used as an excuse not to write her like a human being when she went blind and had overwhelming future sight.

Not to mention that as incredibly rarely as Phil can ever be bothered to acknowledge she exists at all, he'll lie about/oversell as far as Sara's part in a future story, like his saying Sara and Ava would be like two CEOs of different companies juggling a relationship before S4 only to give us Sara functionally being an (unpaid) employee of Ava's and not allowed to put her own job ahead of Ava's without being shamed into submission afterwards if she doesn't want to be dumped.

I might feel differently if they mentioned any potential allies for Sara to connect with while abducted, or if he got into her feelings at all, like he and Keto do with other characters, or he actually seemed enthusiastic rather than giving short, pretty matter-of-fact statements, or the other interviews from this round didn't see him either deliberately ignore her existence entirely when discussing what should be her story or point-blank saying Ava and the Legends' reactions are more important, or if he and the other writers had given any indication they'd taken concerns about Sara in S5 to heart instead of ignoring them 99 times out of 100 and publicly deriding fans the other 1% of the time, or if he didn't have a history of treating Sara badly, but none of those things are true.

[Sakura12]

Its like he has to be forced to talk about Sara/Caity. Whenever anyone asks about her, he starts talking about someone else. He's probably mad that Sara and Ray are still so popular when he's tried to hard to push Ava and Nate. 

I can't really get excited about Sara getting storylines away from the team since it will most likely be one episode if any than immediately go to being about Ava dealing with it. Since seeing the actual character that is suffering through all the trauma is not as interesting as watching her girlfriend deal with Sara suffering through her traumas. 

[Oreo2234]

I'm glad to hear we will likely see Zari 1.0 again. 

Next season's story would've be the perfect opportunity for a Supergirl crossover. However, present circumstances and Supergirl's filming schedule being further delayed by Melissa Benoist's pregnancy probably means its not possible. 

[lurker22]

17 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Thank you!!!  That does sound more positive for Sara; hopefully it isn’t a misdirect.  I’m still skeptical, but if they actually do follow through on “following her independent of the team”, that could be a good thing.  I’m just wary of whether they’ll actually follow through or whether they’ll be more interested in the trials and tribulations of Captain Sharpe and crew. 🙄

 

I'll believe it when I see it. I've lost any trust in the writers after the way they've treated Sara the last 3 seasons. If this independent storyline for Sara does happen, it's good because it's finally something of Sara that doesn't have to do with Ava. On the other hand, Sara is separated even more from the team than she already is, and we'll most likely see Ava bond even more with the Legends, and probably the new member. What's Sara going to come back to? Like Rip in S2 where he saw that there is someone else better in the Captain seat? I wouldn't put it past the writers to rehash that with Sara and have her completely give up her Captaincy to Ava.

[Sakura12]

48 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

What's Sara going to come back to? Like Rip in S2 where he saw that there is someone else better in the Captain seat? I wouldn't put it past the writers to rehash that with Sara and have her completely give up her Captaincy to Ava.

It clear to me they want Ava to be the Captain. They went with a slow approach to kick Sara out of her job with the co-captain thing. Which was more Ava leading the team and bonding with the team, while Sara was absent, in a coma or glued to Ava's side. She barely spoke to anyone on the team. I think the finale was Sara's final bow as Captain. Thats why the let her lead for the first time in 2 seasons. 

[lurker22]

27 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think the finale was Sara's final bow as Captain. Thats why the let her lead for the first time in 2 seasons. 

I can see that. The Sara we got in the finale was the Captain I remember. Capable, badass, great fighter and tactician on the field, she's everything Ava isn't. It felt good to remember who she is again. This episode could very well be the swan song to Captain Lance.

[Delphi]

Damn this is all very annoying news.   I'm so blown I just might be noping the fuck outta the dctv shows that aren't streaming.  This shit is looking hella bleak. 

[Starfish35]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think the finale was Sara's final bow as Captain. Thats why the let her lead for the first time in 2 seasons. 

That seems......depressingly likely.  😢

I think I need to just take some time away from the show and the fandom.  I’m already battling depression/anxiety right now due to real world issues (as I know a lot of people are).  I know in the larger scheme of things this isn’t really that big of a deal, but...it’s not helping.  😒 This was my fun escapist show, and this whole issue has made it.....not that, lately.  

Edited June 4, 2020 by Starfish35

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, lurker22 said:

I can see that. The Sara we got in the finale was the Captain I remember. Capable, badass, great fighter and tactician on the field, she's everything Ava isn't. It felt good to remember who she is again. This episode could very well be the swan song to Captain Lance.

Yep, it was even there in the title... it was her Swan Thong.  I guess it could have been seen as a swan thong to Maisie/Charlie and Zari 1.0, but I really doubt it.  Sara will never be Captain again.  It's going to be all Ava.  Jess Macallan is going to get top billing in the credits soon, just watch.  It was Caity, then Maisie, then maybe Amy Louise Pemberton, then maybe Tala Ashe, then Jess?  Wouldn't be at all surprised if they move her up.

[Sakura12]

I'm kind of thinking this new girl they are bringing in is going to be Ava's new love interest.

They have to break up Avalance slowly to avoid the backlash so separating them is the first step, the next step would be showing Ava bonding with another woman while Sara's gone. Then they can kick Sara/Caity off by having her choose to stay with the Aliens. They wouldn't kill her because would take the focus off of Ava and they can't have that. 

[tessaray]

I stayed out of the Spoilers/Spec as I was way, way behind.  Dang.  Depressing to read the last couple of pages. I guess it spared me a little bit of angst.  (Yay?) 

I don't want to lose Sara again but the show can't last forever and perhaps Caity is better off getting a head start on her next act.  Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to be ticked off.  But they've made it easier by boring me to tears with Ava.  🙂  

[Featherhat]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:32 PM, Starfish35 said:

That seems......depressingly likely.  😢

I think I need to just take some time away from the show and the fandom.  I’m already battling depression/anxiety right now due to real world issues (as I know a lot of people are).  I know in the larger scheme of things this isn’t really that big of a deal, but...it’s not helping.  😒 This was my fun escapist show, and this whole issue has made it.....not that, lately.  

Yeah me too. Fandom, especially LOT has always been my escape time from depressing and anxious real world issues but all this Sara speculation is just not enjoyable so I've been staying out of it and popping in to check every now and then. The disengagement is working and by the time the next season airs I might be completely over caring what happens. 

That said right now: Sigh I really hope we're just over reacting but after Ray.....

Nate I kind of get, even if I don't agree because he's a good looking dude bro substitute for male writers but I really don't get this obsession with Ava. JMAC is attractive and a good actress but Ava is pretty boring on her own and they don't even use her to best advantage in playing off the rest of the cast. A whole season or more of her being Captain sounds dull to be honest, even if Sara wasn't an issue for me. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Featherhat

[tv echo]

Summary of previously posted cast changes...

TV's Big Cast Changes (2020-2021)
By Matt Webb Mitovich / August 11 2020
https://tvline.com/gallery/tv-cast-changes-spoilers-2020-2021-season/legends-of-tomorrow-shayan-sobhian/

Quote

DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW
Shayan Sobhian has been promoted to series regular for Season 6 of the zany Arrowverse drama, as Zari’s younger brother Behrad. (READ MORE)
*  *  *
DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW
Maisie Richardson-Sellers, who has most recently played Charlie, will not return as a series regular for Season 6. (READ MORE)
*  *  *
DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW
Olivia Swann, who plays Astra, is confirmed to return as a series regular for Season 6. (READ MORE)

Edited August 12, 2020 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

Legends of Tomorrow Adds Chicago P.D. Vet Lisseth Chavez as Series Regular

Quote

Meet the Waverider’s newest recruit: Legends of Tomorrow has cast Lisseth Chavez (Chicago P.D.) in the series-regular role of alien expert Esperanza “Spooner” Cruz, TVLine has learned.

The character joins the time ship crew in Season 6, which finds co-captains Sara Lance and Ava Sharpe and their teaming “hunting down extraterrestrials who have been displaced throughout history,” per the official synopsis. “After Sara is abducted by a ruthless alien, this new mission becomes personal. It will take more than the combined powers of the Legends to save the world for a sixth time.” Enter Spooner, “a woman uniquely qualified to help the team defeat their intergalactic foes. Either that or she’s just crazy…”

The “tough and self-sufficient” Spooner “lives off the grid, devising ingenious tech for the detection of — and defense against — space aliens,” reads the character description. “And while some might call her paranoid, she calls it being prepared. A survivor of a childhood alien encounter, Spooner now believes she has the ability to communicate telepathically with aliens.”

And though Spooner may be a resource for the Legends, she won’t necessarily be buds with them. “She is not going to be the lovable loser that we normally have,” executive producer Grainne Godfree shared during the show’s complete DC FanDome panel (streaming on demand through Sunday, Sept. 13 at 1 pm ET). “She’s going to be someone who is pretty tough and gives it to the other Legends, and they’re going all have to react to her, and I think it’s going to throw them off their feet a little bit.”

Is it me, or does she kind of sound like Zari 1.0?