Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[tv echo]

[darkestboy]

Most of the departures we've had have not really affected the show but I do think losing Ray will affect and not in a good way.

To me, he's going to be a massive loss to the series and I quite enjoyed Nora as a character.

It also seems like it's not the actors choice either, which makes it worse.

[jhlipton]

On 8/25/2019 at 9:28 AM, tv echo said:

Yuck.  I grew to tolerate Contantine, but not like him.  This is disappointing.

[Maelstrom]

Well, fuck. Any remaining interest I may have in watching season 5 is leaving with Brandon.

Not that I had much interest in tuning back in after how little I enjoyed season 4. But this makes it official for me.

On 8/23/2019 at 5:33 PM, statsgirl said:

I think focusing the season on Ava, the Time Bureau and Nate's father was a decision that hurt the show; it felt like it had moved from being about rebels and time travel (which I found charming) to being about the Time Bureau.

YES! Taking a show that originally focused on misfits, rebels, and outcasts and turning it into a show about bureaucrats was such a WTF move. It was probably about the worst choice they could've made.

On 8/23/2019 at 12:31 PM, Starfish35 said:

I don’t know.  Brandon and Courtney being so upset about it makes me think that there’s something more behind this, whether it’s cost or being replaced or what.  I don’t know.  I just feel so bad about this. 😭

It does make you wonder why they'd fire one of their original stars who seems to be universally liked as an actor, and the same could be said for his character. And Brandon arguably has the biggest name recognition of any of the cast, what with his Superman days and all. (Sure, Prison Break launched Dominic's star pretty well, but Wentworth is always the one people seem to talk about when PB comes up). This is pure, petty speculation on my part, but I wonder if firing Brandon isn't TIIC way of making sure that Nate is the undisputed male lead of the show now. 

On 8/24/2019 at 6:07 AM, Sakura12 said:

When thinking about it, I think I'm okay with shows ruining themselves so much that I don't care if they cancelled over having a show I love get cancelled. If they had cancelled LoT after Season 2, I would've been upset. If they cancelled it after Season 3, I would still be upset but would've been okay with that ending. If they cancelled it after last season, I would not have cared. So I would be perfectly fine with next season being their last. 

Yes. I loved Lucifer's second season, but when FOX cancelled it after their abysmal third season I was relieved. Grimm is another example, though their cancellation came several seasons too late IMO.

On 8/25/2019 at 9:28 AM, tv echo said:

I wanted to like your post but PTV needs a barfing emoji.

Goodbye, Show. It's been fun. Until it wasn't.

ETA of course I'll miss Courtney and Nora too, but as a newer character her loss doesn't boggle the mind quite the way Brandon's does (even though Nora was one of the few added characters who actually worked, but nevermind that now)

Edited August 27, 2019 by Maelstrom

[Lugal]

They're dumping Brandon and Courtney?  Wonderful move guys.

Look at them.  These are the two you decide to get rid of?  Is it because they are stealing the thunder of chosen couple Nate/Zari by being much more interesting?

This only furthers my idea that the show has been rudderless since the back half of Season 4 (and the signs were there in the the first half) and TIIC don't even realize it.  Ever since Beebo worked (which really shouldn't have) they think they're bulletproof.

So, they push their remaining original characters (Sara, Mick and Ray) to the background to bring on new ones.  They forgot or don't know the difference between lead and side characters (Gary, Mona and even Ava) and the ones that could be leads they haven't known what to do with: They shoehorn Nate into romances much to the detriment of his partner (Amaya, Zari); Reboot Zari into a new character after we got to watch her learn and grow for two years; or just don't use them (Charlie).  Constantine ended up the best, really, and I'll admit I liked him but he's best when part of the ensemble (And I would totally watch Constantine, Ray and Nora fighting crime and saving the universe with Magic! and Science!)

LoT is approaching the 8 deadly words: I Don't Care What Happens To These People.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

YES! Taking a show that originally focused on misfits, rebels, and outcasts and turning it into a show about bureaucrats was such a WTF move. It was probably about the worst choice they could've made.

This. They sold this show as being about the misfits and criminals that don't fit in or follow the normal rules.  together better than any of the other teams. Then they throw in Ava and TB who are not misfits or criminals but regular bureaucrats that follow all the rules. It worked in season 3 because it showed the Legends rejecting everything the TB wanted them to be. In Season 4, the Legends practically got swallowed up by the TB and were no longer the misfits. The whole point of the show was gone.  They might as well changed the show's name to the Time Bureau since the actual Legends were secondary characters last season. 

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

Yes. I loved Lucifer's second season, but when FOX cancelled it after their abysmal third season I was relieved. Grimm is another example, though their cancellation came several seasons too late IMO.

Season 4 of Lucifer on Netflix was great. They basically forgot everything that happened in season 3 and made the show what it used to be. I'm happy they are getting one final season now.  

[shantown]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

YES! Taking a show that originally focused on misfits, rebels, and outcasts and turning it into a show about bureaucrats was such a WTF move. It was probably about the worst choice they could've made.

Seconding (thirding?) this! I loved the ragtag crew from the beginning and they family they forged. Think of Sara in the bar fight in like the first episode of season 1. They weren't gonna play by the rules or follow orders or anything! This show has strayed really far from it's premise in a few ways.

[Starfish35]

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

They're dumping Brandon and Courtney?  Wonderful move guys.

A++ gif usage there. 😂

[darkestboy]

I think the show will regret losing Ray.

Ray, Sara and Mick are the only original characters left and the ones who should've been there til the bitter end. 

Nate is okay in small doses, but he doesn't work as a lead male character and his romances have not been critically acclaimed either. 

I do wonder if Season 5 could end up being the show's last one or will it come back for a sixth and final season with a further reduced cast. Time will tell I guess.

[jhlipton]

19 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I loved Lucifer's second season, but when FOX cancelled it after their abysmal third season I was relieved. Grimm is another example, though their cancellation came several seasons too late IMO.

17 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Season 4 of Lucifer on Netflix was great. They basically forgot everything that happened in season 3 and made the show what it used to be. I'm happy they are getting one final season now.  

I agree with what @Sakura12 said -- they actually added a new character that WORKED with the rest of the cast, and had a good storyline.  There were a few missteps (a bit of "Just Tell Him/Her" fails) but overall, fun to watch.

Grimm made the mistake of pushing aside its best actors/actresses in favor of the worst.  And the storyline sucked for the last few seasons as well.

[BaggythePanther]

6 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Nate is okay in small doses, but he doesn't work as a lead male character and his romances have not been critically acclaimed either. 

I do wonder if Season 5 could end up being the show's last one or will it come back for a sixth and final season with a further reduced cast. Time will tell I guess.

They are determined to get Nate into a relationship that works, even if it means literally rewriting his girlfriend’s personality.

On The CW when a show has been airing for more than four seasons, they typically announce the final season before it airs so the writers can plan for the end. Since there hasn’t been any mention of the show ending, we’re probably getting a season six. Also, three shows are ending this year so I doubt they’d cancel a fourth. But I wouldn’t be surprised if season six is the last.

[BaggythePanther]

We’ve never had siblings on the team before so I’m curious to see how their dynamic fits in with the rest of the team.

[Primal Slayer]

Probably a lot of silly jokes knowing legends.

[BaggythePanther]

That’s not much different than how all the Legends interact now, so I hope there’s more to their dynamic than that.

[Proteus]

Well they said they'll be adversaries and both want the Earth totem. We'll see if Klemmer sticks to that.

[Primal Slayer]

They barely put the Totem to any use....to have them squabble over it is likely going to be boring. 

[statsgirl]

15 hours ago, darkestboy said:

I do wonder if Season 5 could end up being the show's last one or will it come back for a sixth and final season with a further reduced cast. Time will tell I guess.

I think it also depends on how Batwoman does, how long Grant Gustin wants to continue, and whether they can develop a show to fill the hole if LoT left.  They apparently want to keep a stable of Arrowverse shows going so LoT's lifespan may also depend on whether they can replace it if it ends.

[BaggythePanther]

3 hours ago, Proteus said:

Well they said they'll be adversaries and both want the Earth totem. We'll see if Klemmer sticks to that.

That never really made any sense to me. In the original timeline the Air Totem belonged to Behrad. Zari only picked it up because he was gone. There must be something that happens in the new timeline which makes both siblings feel like the Totem is their birthright. Or the writers have forgotten the plot they wrote in season three and I’m thinking too hard about it.

[Delphi]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Zari somehow gets her memories of her time with the legends back.   Because firstly,  I don't wanna waste all that character development but it would also make sense as to why she feels the totem should be hers. 

[tv echo]

WBTVG Directors’ Workshop Graduates Set To Helm Episodes Of ‘Legacies’, ‘Riverdale’, ‘Blindspot’ and Others
By Dino-Ray Ramos   August 28, 2019
https://deadline.com/2019/08/warner-bros-television-group-graduates-legacies-riverdale-blindspot-1202705642/ 

Quote

Graduates from Warner Bros. Television Group’s (WBTVG) Directors’ Workshop class of 2019 are all ready to sit in the director’s chair. All participants of this year’s program have booked directing assignments on upcoming episodes of a WBTVG series. On top of that, two of the directors have gone on to secure additional assignments — before even helming their first episode.
*  *  *
Below are the graduates from the Directors’ Workshop class and their directing assignments for the upcoming 2019–20 television season.
*  *  *

• Caity Lotz is set to direct an episode of DC’s Legends of Tomorrow. Lotz stars in the series as Sara Lance/White Canary. She originated the role on Arrow and has also appeared as the same character on Arrow-verse series The Flash and Supergirl.

*  *  *
The following members of the class of 2019 have landed offers to direct episodes during the 2020–21 season (pending series renewals):

• Jes Macallan will direct an episode of DC’s Legends of Tomorrow. Jes currently stars as Ava Sharpe in the series and previously directed the short film Self, E.

Edited August 29, 2019 by tv echo

[BaggythePanther]

At first I thought Caity and Jes would direct this season, but I think there’s a rule that a show can only have one new director a season.

Speaking of which:

I love how all the other Arrowverse shows are being secretive about their episode titles while Legends just doesn’t give a damn.

Edited August 29, 2019 by BaggythePanther
Clarity

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

I love how all the other Arrowverse shows are being secretive about their episode titles while Legends just doesn’t give a damn.

The first few Supergirl titles are out.  Flash and Arrow I am guessing are more quiet due to the Crisis tie-ins.

[BaggythePanther]

I saw that Supergirl just released the titles, but Legends has been dropping episode titles for a few weeks now.

I’m going to be disappointed if there isn’t a Wrath of Kahn reference at some point.

ETA:

I know Zari is going to be a YouTube star, but it didn’t click that she would have her own brand and endorsements.

Edited August 30, 2019 by BaggythePanther
Added extra info because I didn’t want to double post.

[Proteus]

https://tvline.com/2019/08/30/legends-of-tomorrow-genghis-khan-cast-terry-chen-season-5/

Genre-TV vet Terry Chen will engage in some “Mortal Khanbat” via a plum guest-starring role on The CW’s DC’s Legends of Tomorrow.

TVLine has learned exclusively that the alum of such series as Continuum, The Expanse and Jessica Jones will play the infamous Genghis Khan in the fifth episode of Season 5, which is currently filming and marks series lead Caity Lotz’s directorial debut.

The episode — which is titled, yes, “Mortal Khanbat” — presents Khan as a cool-tempered but ruthless Mongolian ruler, who finds himself alone in 1990s Hong Kong. But he adapts quickly and uses his mastery of military strategy to pursue his single greatest ambition: conquering the globe.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Proteus

[johntfs]

On 8/29/2019 at 1:22 AM, BaggythePanther said:

That never really made any sense to me. In the original timeline the Air Totem belonged to Behrad. Zari only picked it up because he was gone. There must be something that happens in the new timeline which makes both siblings feel like the Totem is their birthright. Or the writers have forgotten the plot they wrote in season three and I’m thinking too hard about it.

In the original timeline the Tomaz family was part of an oppressed minority (people who practiced religion, which was outlawed).  Zari was a smart but normal person dealing with that situation and supporting her brother.  In this new reality she's the famous "Big Sister of Dragons" (or whatever).  So, she thinks she deserves the Air totem but it goes to Behrad. 

[tv echo]

From Arrow/Legends panel at Dragon Con today...

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Edited August 31, 2019 by tv echo

[BaggythePanther]

Weirdly enough, after what I heard at the DragonCon panel yesterday, I’m excited to see the first episode of the season, but still down on the season as a whole. Tala straight up admitting that we’re going to hate Zari 2.0 was disheartening.

[johntfs]

9 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

Weirdly enough, after what I heard at the DragonCon panel yesterday, I’m excited to see the first episode of the season, but still down on the season as a whole. Tala straight up admitting that we’re going to hate Zari 2.0 was disheartening.

It's difficult for me to imagine hating any version of Zari.  Honestly more than anger what I most feel for NuZari is a kind of pity.  Think of what it must be like to have basically peaked at age 10 or so.  That the rest of her life is about leveraging that one moment.   

[tv echo]

From Arrow/Legends panel at Dragon Con on Sunday (Sep. 1)...

Edited September 1, 2019 by tv echo

[BaggythePanther]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's difficult for me to imagine hating any version of Zari.  Honestly more than anger what I most feel for NuZari is a kind of pity.  Think of what it must be like to have basically peaked at age 10 or so.  That the rest of her life is about leveraging that one moment.   

I can see the writers emphasizing this at some point later if they want to pull back on NuZari’s annoying characteristics.

Last season I wanted to see more interactions between Zari and Ava. This season I care a lot less, but I’m sad it took the actresses becoming friends for the writers to put them in scenes together.

[tv echo]

I don't know if this is a spoiler or just them joking around at Dragon Con...

Major Arrowverse Character May Be Joining The Cast Of ‘Legends Of Tomorrow’
Jacob Campbell POSTED ON SEPTEMBER 2, 2019
https://fullcirclecinema.com/2019/09/02/major-arrowverse-character-legends-of-tomorrow/

Quote

It looks like the Waverider could be adding a new member to the crew. Based on a recent Instagram post by Tala Ashe, Colton Haynes’ Roy Harper may be joining the cast of Legends of Tomorrow for its upcoming fifth season.

Ashe, who plays Zari on The CW series, posted an image of Haynes alongside co-stars Nick Zano and Jes Macallan with a caption that reads “Just hanging with our newest legend”. This in itself seems like confirmation that Roy Harper will be joining the show in some capacity. Additionally, it seems the cast was also teasing the casting during a panel at DragonCon yesterday.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

I don’t know if they’re serious or joking, but I certainly wouldn’t mind having Roy on the Waverider.  As far as Arrow transplants go, that would be one of the better options. But....I also would hope that wouldn’t be the reason Ray and Nora have been written out.  

Wow - Jes Macallen looks uncannily like Katie Cassidy in that picture.  I thought it was KC at first.  

[BaggythePanther]

During the panel (on Saturday) it sounded like everyone was joking about Roy showing up on Legends. Colton said that he’d never been in a crossover before and it snowballed from there. Also, I seriously doubt Tala would drop a big casting spoiler in her IG stories. Everyone just sees Legends as the dumping ground for characters that have dropped from other shows.

That said, I wouldn’t mind Roy on the Waverider. He’s one of the few Arrow characters I wouldn’t mind seeing crossover. I worry every time the cast says they'd love to see Black Canary and Wild Dog come over. We’ll see. 

[MarkHB]

51 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

I worry every time the cast says they'd love to see Black Canary and Wild Dog come over.

Given his status in DC Comics, I'd say that Wild Dog fits the criteria of "people whose absence wouldn't affect the timeline at all."

[Proteus]

I think they were just joking about Colton joining Legends. Roy is one of the last people I would want to join Legends.

I think if Legends gets any Arrow transplants it'll be Katie Cassidy or Katherine McNamara.

[Starfish35]

Legends is on thin ice with me right now; bringing on Katie Cassidy would shatter that ice to pieces.  Just hell to the no.  I’ve never seen Katherine McNamara in anything (I quit watching Arrow before she came on), so have no opinion on that one.

I tend to agree, though, that they were joking about Colton.

[johntfs]

I admit that I'm pretty much indifferent to any Arrow character joining the Legends.  Mostly because I pretty much stopped watching the show after Season 5 (Oliver is having this much trouble with this one guy?  Really?  Because Season 1 Oliver would have popped this dude like a zit.  Hell, Island Year 3 Oliver would have popped this guy like a zit).

[tv echo]

I would be surprised if Katie Cassidy joins Legends. She's made it clear through her own comments that she wants a Birds of Prey spinoff series in which she can star.  Also, I think that Caity Lotz will always be the main star of Legends and I don't see KC joining another show to play second tier again (which she effectively was on Arrow after the first season). Of course, if the Legends producers can make promises to her that she's happy with, then all bets are off.

Edited September 5, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Unconfirmed speculation that either BR or TH will star as Superman in a new DC TV series called Metropolis - if it's BR, then that would explain his exit from Legends (of course, this source is the one that MG called an "illegitimate outlet")...

SUPERMAN TV SERIES RUMORED DETAILS: 'METROPOLIS'
Matt McGloinPosted: 09/04/2019 -
https://cosmicbook.news/superman-cw-rumored-details-metropolis 

Quote

Now a new rumor is claiming that The CW Superman series may be titled "Metropolis."

TVO from the Lords of the Long Box YouTube channel offers that a new Superman TV series is in development for The CW which will be closer to the Richard Donner movies and in part adopt the "Man of Steel" John Byrne comics from 1986.

It's said the series is tentatively titled "Metropolis" and is from Arrowverse producer and writer Greg Berlanti, who is also known to be developing new shows and content for HBO Max.

Further details include that it is said the show will crossover with Supergirl (so maybe Supergirl isn't getting canceled?) and that it will definitely have a Richard Donner feel to it and will be heavily influenced by John Byrne's work from the '80s DC comics.
*  *  *
Just who will be filling the boots wasn't mentioned, but interestingly enough, Brandon Routh is not only returning as Superman for Crisis On Infinite Earths, but Routh is also getting written out of Legends of Tomorrow, and the actor recently revealed that he is in training for the role.

Maybe Brandon Routh will be Superman for the "Metropolis" series, which, I think, would be pretty huge.

Of course, the other possibility is that Tyler Hoechlin fills the role, as Hoechlin is the Superman from the Supergirl universe, which would also explain why it has connections to Supergirl.

Regardless of who they go with, either one would be a great choice.

Update: TVO filled me in on Twitter that he is hearing it is Tyler Hoechlin.

Edited September 6, 2019 by tv echo

[legaleagle53]

23 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Unconfirmed speculation that either BR or TH will star as Superman in a new DC TV series called Metropolis - if it's BR, then that would explain his exit from Legends (of course, this source is the one that MG called an "illegitimate outlet")...

SUPERMAN TV SERIES RUMORED DETAILS: 'METROPOLIS'
Matt McGloinPosted: 09/04/2019 -
https://cosmicbook.news/superman-cw-rumored-details-metropolis 

May I have a grain of salt to go with that order? One the size of the Bonneville Salt Flats will do!

[MarkHB]

Metropolis was originally posited as Yet Another Superman Prequel, this one set in the city before Superman arrives and starring Lex and Lois. Supposedly it's still in development for DC Universe according to their Office Hours a couple of weeks ago.

[BaggythePanther]

This seems far fetched, but they have spent a decent amount of time setting up Superman’s story in the Arrowverse. They brought on Lois, showed the proposal and I think Jonathan Kent is supposed to be in this year’s crossover. It’s almost as if since they can’t do a Superman show, they’re telling his story as a side plot of the crossovers.

[Oreo2234]

Quote

It's almost as if since they can't do a Superman show, they're telling his story as a sideplot of the crossovers.

I think they are doing that. Which is kinda annoying because the last crossover was more about Superman than Supergirl. If this rumor is true I'm surprised it would be allowed on the low budget CW and not on a bigger network or Streaming service. Supergirl is nerfed most of the time on her show. 

I don't think it would be wise to prematurely cancel Supergirl to replace it with a Superman show. It would not get good publicity and Supergirl still is one of their more popular shows. Supergirl probably won't last longer than 7 seasons so let it reach its end.

Cosmic Book is not a reliable source but I don't know about the Lords of The Long Box TVO guy.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Oreo2234

[BaggythePanther]

I seriously doubt Supergirl is getting cancelled. The main reason I don’t trust these sites is because they don’t seem to know how things work. They’re predicting the end of Supergirl because of the show’s low ratings, and that’s not how the CW decides what to renew/cancel. And just because DC has let Superman appear on TV doesn’t mean they’re going to give the OK for a full blown series. DC has the weirdest restrictions so you can never tell.

Topic? After listening to a Legends podcast, I realize that despite all my negativity, I’m more 50/50 on the season. There’s a lot I’m annoyed about but so far they’ve also gotten rid of the Time Bureau, gotten rid of Mona, brought back interesting historical figures, it looks like Sara will have a solo story arc, as of ep. 5 Nate and Zari aren’t back together and it sounds like they’ve got plans for Charlie this year. I’m no where new as excited as I was for last year's premiere but I am looking forward to watching the season play out.

[Proteus]

I'm still angry about Brandon & Courtney, but I'm trying to hold on to hope about the things I'm still looking forward to. I'm still happy about all the Sara/Ava info that came out from EW. I'm glad the Time Bureau is gone and that Ava will be living on the Waverider with Sara. I'm looking forward to Saras power & how she & Ava deal with that. I think the Constantine/Astra plot sounds good. I'm glad Mona is gone. I'm looking forward to new Zari. And Charlie may be getting written for this year. It sounds like they will be doing good time travel plots this year. So I feel there's some reason to hope.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Proteus

[MarkHB]

19 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

After listening to a Legends podcast,

The Legendary Ladies, as they call themselves?

[tv echo]