Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Sakura12]

That does look like they are filming a teaser for the spin off or they are going to be in the Arrow or Flash finales. 

[strikera0]

I sort of like the idea that it's an AU Sara who became evil in the other universe. That would be a good way to explain the White Canary persona, but most likely, Sara will be LP'ed and theapplefour will suffer a heart attack (LOL).

Edited April 10, 2015 by strikera0

[FurryFury]

I don't want AU Sara, i want the one I fell in love with on Arrow back when it was still really good. I mean, I'll live with this, but I want the real deal because she's the one I'm invested in emotionally.

I think Lyla being the floater is win-win - otherwise, as a guest star and a female love interest, she'll always be in danger of getting killed of or derailed to motivate Diggle (in an offhand case they'll want to motivate him, because we all know these writers don't know any other ways to motivate a character) and I liked the character from what I've seen of her in s2 and wish her and Diggle a happy ending. Becoming something more that just a recurring love interest may guarantee Lyla a better fate.

[Angel12d]

When they first announced it would be Caity and didn't name her as Sara - I had hoped she was going to play a different role altogether (just because I didn't want to see Canary comparisons anymore).  I figured if Caity cut her hair and died it and was mostly seen in a mask, they could get away with it.  They could have some running jokes about how much she looks like Sara, but it would have worked for me. Amusingly enough, the character I most wanted her to play was Hawkgirl but figured it wouldn't happen because they wouldn't bring in aliens.  I didn't know the reincarnated version of New 52 Earth 2 Hawkgirl at the time.

 

Wow, really? I can suspend disbelief for a lot of things but the idea that they'd have CL play someone else and expect me to believe it was just too much, personally speaking. Plus I want her to be Sara because I actually liked Sara. I thought she had a wealth of backstory that could have been explored. I'm just sad she's not BC.

[Sakura12]

I was figuring they didn't announce CL playing Sara because Sara's dead in the Flarrow verse and they didn't want to give away how she comes back. Which can be multiple different ways as we all have speculated. 

 

If she's White Canary that it's pretty much a given that she's playing Sara (#sorrynotsorry theapplefour). There is no way they'd have CL playing a character that looks like Sara and is going by the same Canary name she choose. Now it could be AU Sara which I'd hate, but she will be named Sara. 

 

I'd prefer she go by Greyhawk or something so they can invent a new hero name for her, not tied to comics. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Sakura12

[Sunshine]

I think CL playing Sara is the only way they keep the possibility of Sara's backstory alive from Lian Yu to LOA.  MG has said several times it's something they would like to tell. 

[statsgirl]

Wow, really? I can suspend disbelief for a lot of things but the idea that they'd have CL play someone else and expect me to believe it was just too much, personally speaking. Plus I want her to be Sara because I actually liked Sara. I thought she had a wealth of backstory that could have been explored. I'm just sad she's not BC.

I admit the thinking of the EPs sometimes leaves me far behind but I can't imagine hiring CL to play a character in the Arrow-verse spin-off and not have it be some variation on Sara.  I mean, why hire CL at all if you're not going to be doing Sara?  If you like the actress that much that you want her back, hire her for Mysteries of Laura or someone on Supergirl.

[Morrigan2575]

I think CL playing Sara is the only way they keep the possibility of Sara's backstory alive from Lian Yu to LOA.  MG has said several times it's something they would like to tell.

good point, this would indicate (to me) not just Sara but our Sara, the one that was killed in 301. So, that narrows it down to LP! Sara or a very convoluted time travel scenario.

[Sakura12]

good point, this would indicate (to me) not just Sara but our Sara, the one that was killed in 301. So, that narrows it down to LP! Sara or a very convoluted time travel scenario.

Why not both? LP and convoluted time travel.

[Morrigan2575]

Why not both? LP and convoluted time travel.

Sorry, that's one of the possible convoluted time travel options. Someone goes back in time, takes Sara from grave and LPs her. Or someone goes back in time, replaces real Sara on roof with clone/robot. Any others?

[HighHopes]

 

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but it looks like the spinoff won't be named "The ATOM" 

[KirkB]

   If CL is going to be playing Sara, the same Sara who was on the Gambit with Oliver and wound up in the LoA, then I'd say there are two likely scenarios.

1) The Lazarus Pit. When exactly she was put there and by whom to be determined.

2) The person shot off the roof wasn't really Sara but someone who looked like her and the real Sara was somewhere else. Assuming it wasn't something she arranged, it would probably be either Ra's or Malcolm.

   Otherwise, the possibilities become more convoluted, like an alternate universe version, which would be Sara Lance and yet not, perhaps a clone, or some time travel shenanigans courtesy of Barry, Wells or this new guy Rip Hunter.

Edited April 11, 2015 by KirkB

[Morena]

   If CL is going to be playing Sara, the same Sara who was on the Gambit with Oliver and wound up in the LoA, then I'd say there are two likely scenarios.

1) The Lazarus Pit. When exactly she was put there and by whom to be determined.

2) The person shot off the roof wasn't really Sara but someone who looked like her and the real Sara was somewhere else. Assuming it wasn't something she arranged, it would probably be either Ra's or Malcolm.

   Otherwise, the possibilities become more convoluted, like an alternate universe version, which would be Sara Lance and yet not, perhaps a clone, or some time travel shenanigans courtesy of Barry, Wells or this new guy Rip Hunter.

I like the second choice

[La Dee Da]

That does look like they are filming a teaser for the spin off or they are going to be in the Arrow or Flash finales. 

I could see that after the credits of the last finale - a team gathering, and the floater stepping out of the shadows and saying "it's time to get started" or "villains, heroes....we're all friends now.  Super friends, as it were." [Theme Music!!!!  Winter 2016 title card!!!]

 

I really like Lila as the floater - I know a lot of theories are based on who has relationships with who, but maybe it's about who can nudge the plot forward on three shows.  I think I read somewhere that the spinoff is about hunting down metahumans, so Lila, perhaps in charge of a new ARGUS, is their handler/contact.  Her role on Arrow is clear and on Flash, given it's where the super powering up started and is (at this point) concentrated, maybe she and her organization take a more active interest in how Barry's mission is unfolding. 

 

The other character who I thought could play a similar role - leading a shadowy organization - is maybe the military guy Marc Singer played in the flashbacks in the Luan Yu episode.  I don't know a lot about his comic book origins (and what they have planned for hiim on Arrow) and it's potentially a bit SHIELDy, though. 

[kismet]

   If CL is going to be playing Sara, the same Sara who was on the Gambit with Oliver and wound up in the LoA, then I'd say there are two likely scenarios.

1) The Lazarus Pit. When exactly she was put there and by whom to be determined.

2) The person shot off the roof wasn't really Sara but someone who looked like her and the real Sara was somewhere else. Assuming it wasn't something she arranged, it would probably be either Ra's or Malcolm.

   Otherwise, the possibilities become more convoluted, like an alternate universe version, which would be Sara Lance and yet not, perhaps a clone, or some time travel shenanigans courtesy of Barry, Wells or this new guy Rip Hunter.

Gonna take Option #2. It think its more "epic" & "game-changing" than just using the LP. Plus, I bet they're gonna us LP on Roy or Thea, and I doubt they would use it twice in same season.

[CabotCove]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but it looks like the spinoff won't be named "The ATOM"

 

It didnt make sense to begin with. I think MG is likely being a troll. Though #Atom&hisAmazingFriends as title, would have been pretty funny, ridiculously funny.

 

I think CL playing Sara is the only way they keep the possibility of Sara's backstory alive from Lian Yu to LOA.  MG has said several times it's something they would like to tell.

 

Then, they shouldn't have killed her in the first place, aint it. Nothing was stopping them from telling the story. 

 

I'm sure that the EPs believe differently, but removing him from the love triangle may not be enough to change people's opinions of him since people were hating on him before he showed any romantic interest in Felicity (just go and check the episode threads---people were put off by his behavior almost immediately).  For an entire season, this dislike has been festering, growing to outright hatred, in some cases.

 

Ray & Felicity met in the premier of season 3 ,  I would say their potential romantic link was suggested from the get go. And in addition, Ray was always going to be Felicity's love interest since he was "Daniel", announced as her L.I since the summer of 2014. I dont think they were any mysteries at to what part he would play or how this was going to go between the two characters. So yes he has always been the romantic rival way before he even showed up in Arrow. Im willing and hopeful to see how well he does when he isn't being associated & marred with that trope. I think The Flash is a good place to start, up next this Tue.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Conell

[BkWurm1]

From what I have witnessed, BR just doesn't have the charisma and likability needed to overcome everything that's already stacked against him.

 

 

I'm not convinced anyone could have taken what he was given and made it work.   I don't think BR has been given a fair chance to shine cause anytime they've had him shine on Arrow, it was at the expense of more beloved characters and that means no one is really paying Ray any positive attention.  

 

The helicopter scene -IMO the one scene where his actions fit the moment and didn't drag anyone down - showed that BR can be comic and charming.  I'm willing to give him a real chance.   

   If CL is going to be playing Sara, the same Sara who was on the Gambit with Oliver and wound up in the LoA, then I'd say there are two likely scenarios.

1) The Lazarus Pit. When exactly she was put there and by whom to be determined.

2) The person shot off the roof wasn't really Sara but someone who looked like her and the real Sara was somewhere else. Assuming it wasn't something she arranged, it would probably be either Ra's or Malcolm.

   Otherwise, the possibilities become more convoluted, like an alternate universe version, which would be Sara Lance and yet not, perhaps a clone, or some time travel shenanigans courtesy of Barry, Wells or this new guy Rip Hunter.

Here's a thought.  We have time travel in play on The Flash.  We also have Wells revealed as not really Wells so we know the technology to create a copy is out there.  Of course the version we saw has a catastrophic effect on  the original but at least the idea of making copies has been put out there.  I wonder if it isn't completely crazy to suggest that Barry might get to RealSara before the Arrows and swap her for a FakeSara (presumably someone already dead - yeah gets tricky there) and drop her back off in the future.  

 

I would say it's a nutty idea but with all the reports of the cast showing up on the set of The Flash maybe it isn't.   (Maybe Barry messing with the timeline somehow summons Rip Hunter too). 

 

Honestly, all the theories on how Sara is no longer dead, dead sound over the top and crazy but one of these scenarios is going to happen and when it does I won't complain one peep as long as we have Sara, our Sara back.  AU versions will get a peep from me but I'll take what I can get as long as she basically our Sara minus the oops died part.  

Edited April 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

Then, they shouldn't have killed her in the first place, aint it. Nothing was stopping them from telling the story.

 

 

I get a bit uncomfortable with statements like this.  Not so much the first part, but the second part - not just because we don't know what happened behind the scenes, but because there's often several things in television that can prevent you from telling a story - budget, network, actor availability, and so on. In the case of Arrow specifically, the flashbacks are in general focused on Oliver's story - and while I like the idea of occasionally giving flashbacks to other characters, and I'm very sympathetic to the idea of giving one character a fuller story as some sort of compensation for getting killed off just because he was so good at being an interesting character that he helped jump start a rival, but in the same studio, film - I think that adding the Felicity, Malcolm, everybody in Starling except Malcolm and Deadshot flashbacks has actually served to make the flashbacks at least feel a bit more disjointed this season.  I may feel a bit differently once I marathon it, but right now, I'm finding myself contrasting the flashbacks from the first season, which did tell a single, coherent story, with one flashback leading directly to the next one, to this season, where the connections between flashbacks are getting lost by inserting different flashbacks between them. As much as I want to see Sara's flashbacks since they sound interesting, it's possible that adding them to this season would have worsened the problem.

 

So yes he has always been the romantic rival way before he even showed up in Arrow. Im willing and hopeful to see how well he does when he isn't being associated & marred with that trope. I think The Flash is a good place to start, up next this Tue.

 

 

I hope you're right, because I want this spinoff to succeed.  That said, speaking as someone who hasn't looked at any of the trailers for that episode yet, no matter what happens, Ray will, to an extent, be in that position in Flash as well. Felicity, after all, was introduced over on Flash as a potential love interest for Barry - she went out on a double date with him and even kissed him. It was more or less outright stated that if not for Iris and Oliver (and the issues of having a relationship between characters on different shows) that Barry and Felicity would be going out. Since then, Flash viewers (and I'm speaking about viewers who have only seen Flash and aren't following Arrow) have seen Barry's first romantic rival for Felicity show up and announce in depressed tones that guys like him don't get the girl, just coffee.  Now they are going to see the guy who did get the girl, a girl Barry was interested in  - after seeing that yes, Barry is capable of dating women not named Iris. So the romantic rival thing will still be at least somewhat in play.  

 

With that said, ship wars between Iris/Barry and Caitlin/Barry aside, the love rival men have in general been pretty well liked - to the point where Firestorm is heading to the spinoff, even if, perhaps, without much of Ronnie's actor, since Robbie Amell is apparently focusing on a film career.  So it's very possible that Ray will be more popular over there. I am looking forward to it - I'm on record as not being overly fond of Ray, but I do want to see how he works on a more lighthearted show, to see if I can really look forward to the spinoff, or need to brace myself in order to see Hawkgirl. (Hawkgirl! Oh, spinoff, how you draw me in.) Brandon Routh has pretty good comic timing - my favorite scenes with him in Arrow have all been the comedy ones - so hopefully both Flash and the spinoff will let him do more of that. 

[CabotCove]

I get a bit uncomfortable with statements like this.  Not so much the first part, but the second part - not just because we don't know what happened behind the scenes, but because there's often several things in television that can prevent you from telling a story - budget, network, actor availability, and so on.

Thats fair enough, I dont mean to claim I know exactly what goes behind the scenes, it just seems to me that they killed her off because she wasnt  who they wanted as the "ultimate" Black Canary. They knew they were other alternatives, even if they didnt,  they also heard them suggested. I just dont understand why they took this convoluted route in the first place when they didnt have to kill her,  therefore didnt need to go through this convoluted path. This latest news proves to me they regret  something, they shouldnt have done in the first place Imo. It cant be actor available since CL still wants in, cant be budget as they are creating a brand new show, I dont think its the network since they are cool with Sara/CL being back....

 

I hope you're right, because I want this spinoff to succeed.  That said, speaking as someone who hasn't looked at any of the trailers for that episode yet, no matter what happens, Ray will, to an extent, be in that position in Flash as well. Felicity, after all, was introduced over on Flash as a potential love interest for Barry - she went out on a double date with him and even kissed him.

Yeah I agree about that he still is, to an extend but he is in luck. The biggest ships on The Flash are WestAllen & SnowBarry, and there is already a lot of intense wars between these two, so Ray with Felicity certainly removes some "third party" competition and might be a relief for the some in the audience. And its not like Barry doesn't have some minor potential L.Is, there Linda, Lisa.....so far in his own show, he seems swarmed up to me.

Now they are going to see the guy who did get the girl, a girl Barry was interested in  - after seeing that yes, Barry is capable of dating women not named Iris. So the romantic rival thing will still be at least somewhat in play.

 

That girl was Iris. Barry only has eyes for Iris at the moment, he could have gotten Felicity if he wanted her. He is the one who blew her off. I dont forsee any romantic rival tension with Ray and  Barry next Tuesday, Felicity and Barry made it clear the last time they talked  that they were over, before they even began. Honestly Barry is currently not interested in Felicity that way, like at all IMO.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Conell

[tv echo]

Hey, the EPs came up with a never-before-mentioned identical twin for Shado.  So why not for Sara?  Perhaps separated-at-birth twins, one of which was stolen by the LOA for some contrived reason, and Quentin & Dinah were told that one twin had died.  Then the stolen twin was raised by Ra's and renamed Talia.... I mean, given all the ridiculousness that we're expected to swallow on Arrow, why not?

 

EDITED:  Because I had a temp brain freeze.

Edited April 11, 2015 by tv echo

[FurryFury]

It's stupid for Shado and would be even more stupid for Sara because we know her family and none of them ever mentioned a sibling. You'd think Dinah would know.

[Velocity23]

[kismet]

It's stupid for Shado and would be even more stupid for Sara because we know her family and none of them ever mentioned a sibling. You'd think Dinah would know.

Dinah also has a tendency to lie to her family to protect them. I mean she was all for lying to QL about Sara's death. She lied to QL & LL about her involvement in SL going on the gambit. She also was given opportunities to come clean on some of these lies multiple times and chose to keep with the lie until telling it benefited her. I would not put it past her to lie to her daughters about another sibling's death and convincing QL to do the same. LL would have been too young to actually remember if her Mom was pregnant with twins or not. If DL delivered both babies and was told that one of them had died, why would she not believe the doctor? The LoA or whoever stole her would simply have to provide a dead baby as evidence. Also people deal with the death of stillborns & miscarriages in very unique ways. That grief is very intense, personal & hard, so we have no idea how they would have handled it. Plus its not something that has been discussed on Arrow or comes up in general conversation, so we really haven't had the opportunity to have this sibling/twin theory dismissed.

 

Now whether or not hidden/secret twin/siblings are stupid or trope, or ridiculous story devices ~ that's a whole other argument.  They have to bring CL back in someway that describes why she looks like SL. A secret twin is as believable as faked death, AU, time-travel, clone and LP SL. Whether or not one tells a better story is debatable & personal preference. But so long as it is well written, I'm ok with most options. TIme travel makes me a little more leary, but only because I fear the continuity issues and how it might impact all the other flarrowverses.

 

edited - Because I forgot to add faked death to the list of options. Sorry, forgot that one. :)

Edited April 11, 2015 by kismet

[FurryFury]

No, just no. It would look like a stupid retcon (even more stupid than Shado) and would be way worse than LP, faking her death or AU via time travel. And I'm pretty sure CL's playing Sara anyway, not a twin or anything.

 

I also think that a twin is nowhere as believable as any of this. Especially after another seemingly dead female character got one.

Edited April 11, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

A secret twin would be way less believable then any of the other options. Because how would Dinah have hidden she was pregnant with twins from Quentin? He seemed to love his daughters and would've gone to a least a couple of doctors appointments with his wife.

[MarkHB]

That girl was Iris. Barry only has eyes for Iris at the moment, he could have gotten Felicity if he wanted her. He is the one who blew her off. I dont forsee any romantic rival tension with Ray and Barry next Tuesday, Felicity and Barry made it clear the last time they talked that they were over, before they even began. Honestly Barry is currently not interested in Felicity that way, like at all IMO.

I disagree; Barry chased a train down to give her that last kiss. The next time we saw them, Felicity was saying "This? Totally not happening" and IMHO the look on Barry's face was "wait, what?" Linda showed that he was willing to try to move on from Iris, albeit unsuccessfully. Both of them let him go, at least partially because they recognized where his head was better than he did.

[tv echo]

Hey, guys, I made the secret twin suggestion kinda tongue-in-cheek... because of all the unbelievable stuff that we've had to accept on Arrow.  But to clarify, the idea is that Quentin & Dinah knew that they were having twins, but were told (falsely) that one twin died.  (We saw this happen on BSG when Sharon & Helo were shown a dead baby.)  I would LOL if CL actually ended up playing a secret twin and not Sara!

 

Andrew Kreisberg @AJKreisberg  ·  Apr 10
Lots of rumors online about the title for @CW_TheFlash @CW_Arrow spinoff.  I PROMISE they're wrong.  We'll tell you soon #Arrow #TheFlash

https://twitter.com/AJKreisberg

Edited April 11, 2015 by tv echo

[FurryFury]

I guess it means Atom is indeed not the final title. Thank god.

[Morrigan2575]

I guess it means Atom is indeed not the final title. Thank god.

I think it was the working title because that's what they initially pitched, an ATOM show. Personally, I don't think CW was very interested so they kept adding extra characters and turned it into a team show in order to get the CW to bite.

[CabotCove]

I disagree; Barry chased a train down to give her that last kiss. The next time we saw them, Felicity was saying "This? Totally not happening" and IMHO the look on Barry's face was "wait, what?"I

 

I think he was just being polite when he followed her to the train to say goodbye privately, I dont think he went there specifically to kiss her. Felicity went all the way to CC to see him the least he could have done is say, thank you. Barry was quite rude asking her why she was there in the first place, Oh I dont know Barry you were in a coma for 9 months, and this girl that really likes you came to see you all the time. Now she is happy that you made it alive?. And then when Iris called them "a two" he was very quick to dismiss they weren't. 

 

The next time we saw them, Felicity was saying "This? Totally not happening" and IMHO the look on Barry's face was "wait, what?"

 

Ok maybe there is a little attraction there. I dont like the way Barry treats Felicity when Iris is around though or when he is at home in CC, its like he really doesn't have time for Felicity. Like she is just an annoying fangirl following him around. But its like the moment she starts looking away, he start to want her, I hope he doesn't act like that with Ray. He is all about anting Iris right now and shouldn't try to dangle girls around because he cant have Iris yet, Imo.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Conell

[kismet]

A secret twin would be way less believable then any of the other options. Because how would Dinah have hidden she was pregnant with twins from Quentin? He seemed to love his daughters and would've gone to a least a couple of doctors appointments with his wife.

I don't think it would have been a secret twin to Dinah or Quentin. You're right, they both would have known about the twin. Unless we stretch it and have a twin that doesn't show up on the ultrasound which is very rare & likely too far of a stretch. It simply has to be a secret to Laurel & Sara, and a conveniently forgotten fact for the Arrow world (which has been known to happen). For it to work, the twin would have had to have been born, stolen and then D&Q told it had died unexpectedly either in childbirth or in the nursery. So it could reasonably happen. Modern day nurseries are fortresses now, but back when SL was born the security was not that tight. Babies were being stolen & switched, which is why security is so tight at hospitals now. Babies are stolen, switched & presumed dead a lot, esp in TV world. The fact is the situation is realistic and could be explained without that much retcon. One conversation is all it takes - We had another child, we were told she died. Somebody stole her and she is alive, we never knew. We never told you because we were trying to protect you & your sister. 

 

I'm not saying its my favorite of the theories. I'm sure people all have their favorite theories. Frankly, I'm only invested in them telling a good story, so if they back their reason with some solid writing, I'll probably be ok with any option. I'm just saying it plausible & believable as an option. Right now we have secret sibling/twin, faked death, AU, time travel, clone & LP. There has been nothing concrete released that I can remember that indicates one is more likely than the other. So its all speculation now.

[icandigit]

I would really hate the twin thing. And I watched Days of Our Lives when Charlotte Ross was on it. So it's not like I'm against soapy stuff. Totally think the twin thing is a viable option though.

[Starfish35]

An article on White Canary and whitewashing.

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/04/10/white-canary-and-arrows-habit-of-whitewashing/

Edited April 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[jaytee1812]

An article on White Canary and whitewashing.

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/04/10/white-canary-and-arrows-habit-of-whitewashing/

 

Wow, I had no idea Arrow was so bad for white washing. It would be disgraceful if CL played White Canary but I doubt that'll stop this team. 

[statsgirl]

I can see why they cast Bex T-K instead of someone Asian because she is that good and because the backstory is different (her father was a pilot who died on Lian Yu.  But Sandra Hawke is a small enough role that they should have cast to match the comics, and there must be other actors who could have played Ra's.  Maybe they think that making Joe and Iris Black gives them points, like carbon credits?

 

Don't twins have some secret sense of being a twin?  Would we get a retcon with Laurel saying Sara always felt like there was someone missing in her life?

 

Gonna take Option #2. It think its more "epic" & "game-changing" than just using the LP. Plus, I bet they're gonna us LP on Roy or Thea, and I doubt they would use it twice in same season.

I'd like that, but unless it's the gene-changing stuff that Eobard Thawne used to changing into  Harrison Wells, how would it be that no one, including Laurel and Oliver, recognized that the corpse wasn't Sara?  How did Felicity and Roy miss it, as they prepared her for being freezered... I mean buried?

 

Ray & Felicity met in the premier of season 3 ,  I would say their potential romantic link was suggested from the get go. And in addition, Ray was always going to be Felicity's love interest since he was "Daniel", announced as her L.I since the summer of 2014.

I think they really screwed it up though.  Going back to the summer, I think a lot of us were accepting of Felicity getting a love interest outside of Oliver if Oliver was going to be pushing her away.  The problem is that they made Ray stalkerish and creepy in the beginning, and then tried to justify Felicity being with him by her not being attracted to Ray for his own sake but being rejected by Oliver over and over again. 

 

Even if the point was to show the execs that BR/Ray could be a romantic lead, I don't think Ray and Felicity should have been sleeping together, and I really don't like how he treated her in 3x17, or how he doesn't give her credit for her work on the suit but takes it all for himself.

 

They really dropped the ball on Ray in terms of Raylicity.

[jaytee1812]

I can see why they cast Bex T-K instead of someone Asian because she is that good and because the backstory is different (her father was a pilot who died on Lian Yu. 

 

She's not that good, Meryl Streep and Robert de Nero are not good enough to justify white washing. 

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure if it's whitewashing if it's just using a code name, but not the same person? I mean, if Caity Lotz was playing THE White Canary, the one Gail Simone created, yes, that would be whitewashing, but she's not going to be (regardless of what theapplefour thinks). IF she is using the name White Canary (and that is not 100% confirmed yet), it will Sara Lance taking the name of White Canary to distinguish herself from her sister the Black Canary.

I'm not saying I think it's the best idea in the world - I'm not crazy about Sara being the White Canary. But, I'm not sure it's the same thing as them hiring CL to play the original White Canary. This is Sara, just taking another code name.

edited to move the part about Sandra and Conner to the Spoiler Discussion thread since it relates specifically to Arrow and not to the spinoff.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

She's not that good, Meryl Streep and Robert de Nero are not good enough to justify white washing. 

It's not the same character as in the comics though. Dinah adopted a girl from an Asian village; Sara was in no condition to adopt anyone, being in the LoA herself.  The show wanted a young female character called Sin who would be in Starling City naturally; they could have cast an actress who was racially Asian but it wouldn't have been as someone from an Asian village, it would have been someone who most likely had been born in the U.S. anyway.

 

With Ra's, it's different because he came from Asia himself.  There should have been all sorts of mixed blood in there.

 

I wonder if they made Sandra Caucasian because they were planning on having Connor on the show some years in the future and thought it would be more difficult to cast a mixed race boy who was a good actor.

 

(I am against white-washing but sometimes color-blind casting can makes things more difficult. I still have nightmares about the Brandy version of Cinderella, in which Victor Garber played the kind, Whoopi Goldberg the Queen and Paolo Montalban from the Philippine played their son.)

[Starfish35]

With Sin (though I love her and Bex Taylor-Klaus), it's still the same name though. They could have given her a different name, or cast someone else. She still fills the same role in the story, a young orphan girl taken under the wing of the [black] Canary. So I don't know that I'm so inclined to give them a pass on that one.

With Sara and White Canary, it would be a completely different character behind the code name, and a hopefully completely different storyline (please please please no shades of Black Canary nemesis here - I'm begging). So.... I'm not sure that it's that much different than having different people using the Green Lantern name, for example.

I mean, I can see arguments on both sides, and I'm still not crazy about Sara being White Canary, but I can live with that as long as they're not using that name because she's going to end up being a villain.

Edited because I apparently can't spell today. :(

Edited April 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

Don't twins have some secret sense of being a twin?  Would we get a retcon with Laurel saying Sara always felt like there was someone missing in her life?

 

I'd like that, but unless it's the gene-changing stuff that Eobard Thawne used to changing into  Harrison Wells, how would it be that no one, including Laurel and Oliver, recognized that the corpse wasn't Sara?  How did Felicity and Roy miss it, as they prepared her for being freezered... I mean buried?

Well the connection between twins in utero they say is strong. But a lot of it is theoretical or there is often not enough scientific evidence to prove it. Retconning to include that Sara was missing something might not need to happen, since the writers tend to skip over deeper psychological issues when they choose to. So to retcon that or not would be completely up to them how much they want to invest in the story. If the lost twin/sibling was the way they wanted to go.

~~~

As for how they could get away with a look-a-like dying instead of Sara could be a gene-changing thing used in Flash. But that seemed very complicated, still waiting on an explanation on that one. Alias did it with extensive plastic surgery. They also used some offscreen methods connected to Rambaldi, and then showed us an impressive scientific process involving a bath & Rambaldi solution. A lot of other shows have use the plastic surgery route. It is possible to get someone who has a similar build as SL. Give her some surgery, intensive training/conditioning to have her learn SL's mannerisms & behavior, and then teach her the history of SL. Depending on if the girl was willing or forced their might be some brainwashing done. So it would depend on who was behind the look-alike, how many resources they had and most importantly why they did it in the first place.

 

Im sure with all the comics & sci-fi knowledge in the writers room they could come up with some plausible way to convince us that there was a double of SL and she is the one who died. I think I would prefer that over them having a look-a-like or clone in the present. It they never did a DNA test & the plastic surgery (or whatever method) they used was good; it could be missed on a digital autopsy. Any discrepancies could be explained by surgeries needed during her time on the "island". They did the autopsy to find out who killed her, they weren't doing it to determine who the victim was. I've never done an autopsy, but Im guessing what your looking for may change how you do the autopsy or the results. Nevermind, FS is neither a MD or trained coroner, so she might have missed stuff. Even Star labs, may have missed stuff depending on what evidence they actually let Caitlin examine. Its plausible, the writers just need to write a good backstory & sci-fi/fantasy/comics explanation.

Edited April 11, 2015 by kismet

[tessaray]

I can see where an assassin might find having a double useful, as in establishing alibis or whatever.  They could re-film the rooftop scene to one where the double was there off camera, with Malcolm and Thea.  A Ra's minion grabs real Sara to be used at some future date (to keep Nyssa in line?) and the story proceeds from there.  Which would put MM in league with Ra's for plot reasons but that wouldn't be the dumbest thing this show has asked us to swallow. 

 

But personally I would like a time travel, AU Sara whose timeline diverges at some point close to the start of the show, so that Sara would be similar to our Sara but not.  It would be interesting to see how everyone would handle it, and it would make sense that this Sara might find it easier to live in a different city than close to her AU family. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by tessaray

[Starfish35]

I can handle AU Sara as long as it's not evil AU Sara, and I agree, it would make it easier to explain things like, why isn't she with her family, and why isn't she with Nyssa?

[Menrva]

Well the connection between twins in utero they say is strong. But a lot of it is theoretical or there is often not enough scientific evidence to prove it. Retconning to include that Sara was missing something might not need to happen, since the writers tend to skip over deeper psychological issues when they choose to. So to retcon that or not would be completely up to them how much they want to invest in the story. If the lost twin/sibling was the way they wanted to go.

~~~

As for how they could get away with a look-a-like dying instead of Sara could be a gene-changing thing used in Flash. But that seemed very complicated, still waiting on an explanation on that one. Alias did it with extensive plastic surgery. They also used some offscreen methods connected to Rambaldi, and then showed us an impressive scientific process involving a bath & Rambaldi solution. A lot of other shows have use the plastic surgery route. It is possible to get someone who has a similar build as SL. Give her some surgery, intensive training/conditioning to have her learn SL's mannerisms & behavior, and then teach her the history of SL. Depending on if the girl was willing or forced their might be some brainwashing done. So it would depend on who was behind the look-alike, how many resources they had and most importantly why they did it in the first place.

I'm a twin and while I would say that my twin and I have a pretty close connection, I don't really believe in a psychic link. That being said, yes, I often know what she's thinking or she knows what I'm going to say, but only because we know each other so well. 

I'm not really a fan of lost/missing/stolen twins stories; they make me (and my sister feel kind of weird). I do hope that they won't go down that route. The whole Laurel/Sara messed up dynamic strikes a little too close to home for me, actually. There's a lot of things there that I see in me and her that is uncomfortably close to what I've seen on screen. And I'm Laurel in this particular comparison. :(

Anyway…needless to say, I would much prefer an AU/time travel scenario.

[Delphi]

An article on White Canary and whitewashing.

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/04/10/white-canary-and-arrows-habit-of-whitewashing/

As much as an not a fan of whitewashing, seriously don't get me started on Avatar the last airbender, but I don't think Arrow is that big of an offender. Despite what she says in the article, I do think it's to their credit that they also have made typically white people other races as well. The Wests come to mind. Nyssa is supposed to be Russian. Manu is hardly a US certified Army guy.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that they made Sin white. She's a completely different character, whose name is actually Cindy.

They used a Hispanic actor for Ted Grant. As they mention.

And Kevin Alejandro is hardly a Caucasian gentleman.

Maybe the producers choose the perfect actors for the roles instead of searching for the perfect skin tones. I'm okay with that.

[kismet]

I'm a twin and while I would say that my twin and I have a pretty close connection, I don't really believe in a psychic link. That being said, yes, I often know what she's thinking or she knows what I'm going to say, but only because we know each other so well. 

I'm not really a fan of lost/missing/stolen twins stories; they make me (and my sister feel kind of weird). I do hope that they won't go down that route. The whole Laurel/Sara messed up dynamic strikes a little too close to home for me, actually. There's a lot of things there that I see in me and her that is uncomfortably close to what I've seen on screen. And I'm Laurel in this particular comparison. :(

Anyway…needless to say, I would much prefer an AU/time travel scenario.

Thanks for sharing. The groups of twins I grew up with always had special connection, but then again they all grew up together so that probably has something to do with it as well. I'm no scholar of twins at all, so I was just trying to speak from what I recall in the psych literature. Honestly, I was just giving credence to the fact that it a lost sibling/twin is viable option, even if it is not a popular one. Frankly, I have no idea what the writers will choose, but they sure like to keep us in the dark about it. I mean we don't even know for sure that she will even be SL, its just strongly pointing in that way from what people have pieced together from what they have given.

[Velocity23]

Seems Barry & Oliver make an appearance in the teaser for the spin-off.

 

https://instagram.com/p/1XjzqkCvEo/

Edited April 12, 2015 by Velocity23

[Morrigan2575]

Wish I could see what CL is wearing, I just see her hair/wig and maybe low cut top (like her BC outfit)

[tv echo]

Regarding the casting of Connor Hawke, remember that MG said this on tumblr (though I don't know how they could cast a POC for Connor when both Oliver and his baby mama are white, unless Connor is not Oliver's son on Arrow)...

wallyallenwest asked:
Thanks for being so cool and not condescending with fans, it means a lot! and I hope you're feeling better :) now please, if you do Connor Hawke at any point during the future, cast a racially correct or at least POC actor in the role. please. representation is important & Connor's heritage is so interesting in the comics, especially in the GL/GA 'hate crimes' series & his grandfather. pretty please.
Absolutely.

 

If these EPs really cast the baby mama as white because they thought it would be more difficult to cast a mixed race boy who was a good actor, then they're seriously f**cked up.  Even if they thought that (which I hope they didn't), attractiveness seems to be more of a criteria than acting ability on a lot of CW shows.

 

If Sara is confirmed as playing the White Canary, then that supports a theory I posted in the Spoiler Discussion thread (probably unlikely) - that Nyssa dies and Sara wears white because white is the color of mourning/death in some Asian cultures.

 

Back to the other, secret twin theory - so my imagination is going in all directions - here's some more wild (and unlikely) speculation...  We don't know much about Dinah Lance.  What if she has a secret in her past that's tied to the LOA, and had to give up one of her twins to Ra's as the price for protecting the rest of her family?  Maybe she was the child of a LOA member or grew up in the LOA.  Maybe she and Yao Fei's wife both were associated with the LOA in their youth, and certain herbs ingested during that time period made them both more susceptible to having twins.  She could've hidden the fact of twins from Quentin if he was a very busy cop at the time.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

Secret Twin doesn't work for me because it's roll eye worthy. I've watch too much soaps. It's annoying.

I rather they go the magic/science route. Yes I know others would hate that. I've read/saw a few stories that they use science or herbs to alter the physical appearance of a character. Like project helix on Alias. Magic herbs are already a thing on Arrow.

Or they could still go with Sara having some kind of resurrection power through things done to her on the Amozo or even earlier. Perhaps she could have been sick with experimental drug treatment as a small child. That could explain some things about Larual's issues as well. Being the healthy kid isn't easy.

Though Dinah having a secret past could be cool Since in the comics she's the Original BC.

Perhaps Dinah/Alex Kingston could be the Floater? She has Ties with all 3 shows. Family on Arrow/Spin off and Location for Flash.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tarotx

[apinknightmare]

She could've hidden the fact of twins from Quentin if he was a very busy cop at the time.

 

This would be absolutely ridiculous, but would probably result in an amazing "that's so Quentin" meme about being the LEAST. OBSERVANT. DETECTIVE. EVER.