S03.E05: Salang Pass

[shura]

My prediction is Philip turns, or at least tries to turn, Kimmie instead of Paige.Then Kimmie dies. Maybe that's who Martha ends up shooting,

Or maybe Philip will set it up so that Kimmie can be Martha's foster child. ;-)

 

Or Martha catches Philip with Kimmie, shoots her, goes to jail for that - and Philip is free! Well, free-er.

[CarpeDiem54]

Yes! For context, I'm 26 (well, for another hour and a half...) and was born right before the Soviet Union fell. Everything I learned about the Soviets was stuff I've looked up on my own. TBH, I really enjoy the show, but it's not what I'd call an easy watch. I often have to watch the show twice, once while looking up events and once again to catch the stuff I missed the first time. Mad Men is a tough watch, this is a master class in dedicated viewing. I can't deal with distractions while it's on. Most people my age have 1000000 things going on while watching TV. This isn't the show for them, sadly.

 

My parents are a few years older than Paige would be and they just got into the show - they have NEVER heard of it, but my mom was a fan of Matthew Rhys from Brothers & Sisters and heard me mention it. Otherwise they wouldn't even know it existed, because it gets very little hype. They have an easier time understanding what is going on, but the show doesn't provide a ton of historical context.

 

It's a shame this show doesn't get award show fodder because Rhys was masterful in this last episode. Just phenomenal. Wondering if people may catch on later, like Breaking Bad.

 

I am really losing any sort of sympathy for the Elizabeth character. She's just beyond cold now. The murder of the car guy - my friend went "what the hell are you watching?" - it was just so...ugh. Phillip is so much more intriguing to me. You could feel the punch in the gut when Kimmie talked about her father never being around, and the fact that he could have a whole nother family. How interesting. I really think he's getting closer and closer to defecting, especially with the added focus on his friendship with Stan. I do root for him, he seems so broken.

Happy almost birthday!

I was the same way with one of the best espionage shows ever - AMC's Rubicon. I had to watch each episode at least twice to see everything that was going on and understand it all. Unfortunately, because it took intense watching, with no distractions, it didn't catch on. These types of shows aren't popular with people with short attention spans and that need some analytical thought. Kudos to you for delving into the background and looking things up.

[Law Mom]

First of all, applause, applause, applause to the outstanding performances in this episode. Frank Langella, Matthew Rhys, the Kimmie actress, everyone. It would be so easy to play these characters as one dimensional, or with some token and obvious secondary characteristic, but everyone in the show gave beautifully nuanced performances showing multiple layers. Well done.

 

I thought all along that Philip should be secretly encouraging Paige's religious conversion, and I think he's finally figuring out that this is the best way to keep her American. It might be somewhat distasteful for him, but much less so than the alternative.

 

The dress is now the second purchase he's made for Paige. I think that Elizabeth's problem with the album last week wasn't that they had already picked out a birthday present, but that she, as a good communist, takes issue with ownership of unnecessry material things. A few episodes ago they pretended to be homebuyers and saw the homeowner's excess of toys and the realtor commented about how it was hard to say no. Well not for Elizabeth, and the Yaz record was symbolic of that. Now the expensive dress. Since these things tend to come it threes I predict one more purchase that will send Elizabeth over the edge.

 

I thought Philip's reaction to Stan telling him that he was undercover for three years was interesting. It was very subtle, but you could tell he was surprised. It means Philip is realizing just what Stan is capable of, that maybe he was underestimating him.

 

As for the Defector, I foresee a poison Milky Way in her future.

[kikaha]

 

The real life couple this show is loosely based on weren't caught for decades.

 

I think the show is loosely based on the Russian spay scandal that went public in 2010, when US authorities arrested 10 long-time US residents.  The Justice Department called it the "Illegals Program."  Two big differences between that and this show:

 

1.  The real-life Russian plants had nowhere near the expertise, success or wild adventures as Phillip and Elizabeth have.  As Attorney General Eric Holder said, none of the ten defendants passed classified information and therefore none were charged with espionage.  And as an article in the Guardian said, "The tradecraft used by the alleged SVR ring was amateurish, and will send shivers down the spine of the rival intelligence organisations in Russia. This was bungling on a truly epic scale. No secrets about bunker-busting bombs were actually obtained, but the network was betrayed. <...> To have a spy ring uncovered before they could actually do any serious spying is doubly embarrassing."

 

i.e. the real-life spies were ineffective, "amateurish", and did not obtain anything of real value.  US authorities were smart enough to catch them before they did any damage. 

 

2.  The events in real life did not take place during the 1980s, but AFTER the Soviet Union fell.  Sobering thought, especially given today's geo-political scene. 

 

I think TPTB have made E&P too much like supermen and superwomen.  But again, without that it's hard to create the dramatic tension needed to make the show a success.  One show that got closer to that than most I recall was Rubicon.  I liked it a lot, but AMC canceled it after its first season. 

[RedheadZombie]

I'm willing to believe that Philip and Elizabeth are the best at what they do, therefore they will be difficult to catch.  I think it would help if more spies (Russian and others) were being caught and punished.  Emmett and Leanne were killed, but by their own people.  Lucia was killed, again by another bad guy.  Nina is being punished, but not by us.  I try to tell myself that they're fighting Reagan, and that does help a little.

 

I think that all of the reasons listed here have contributed to the lower ratings.  I initially only stumbled upon the show because season one followed an American Horror Story finale - I saw no other advertisement.  And that's continued.  I'm inundated by info every season building up suspense for AHS, not so this show.

 

I think this show is less appealing to those who aren't comfortable with rooting against their country.  My mom watched the first season until they killed the cop.  She hasn't watched since.  I think it's also less appealing to those disinterested in the romance between Philip and Elizabeth, as well as their family dynamics.  That's the big draw for me.

 

It is a show that you really have to focus on and pay attention to.  There isn't much short term reward, and the writers expect the viewers to be smart.  That may not be appealing to those who don't like to post on boards, and read other's opinions. 

[Clanstarling]

Umbelina--I was in school (Start of Kindergarten through College Graduation) from Fall 1968-Spring 1985. I live in an Indiana city that is still home to an Air National Guard Tactical Wing Fighter Base & was, when I was in school, but maybe not so much currently, home to a number of national businesses & industries--including many defense contractors.

At any rate, at the time I remembered it being said, or having read somewhere that, because of this, my hometown was likely to be hit in a Soviet/US nuclear war (though probably after the bigger, more likely, target cities... NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.). Despite this, we only had the standard fire drills & tornado drills; no "duck & cover" drills for nuclear attack, ever, all the way from Kindergarten-College.

 

 

You're about 10 years younger than me. I grew up near an Air Force Base and Minutemen missile silos in Montana. The first day of school we were fingerprinted and turned in some information cards filled out by our parents. A couple of weeks later we were issued dogtags we were required to wear. Many people had small bomb shelters in their backyards, including us. They had water and food provisions in them among other supplies and Army cots. We had "duck and cover" drills all the time in school and everyone knew where the Civil Defense shelters were throughout town. The Soviets were seen as a real threat who could/would attack us at any time.

When I was in 4th grade, we moved to Nebraska. I was looked upon as a freak with my dogtags. I was told I didn't need to wear them to school there. The biggest threat was from thunderstorms and tornadoes. The only people who had shelters were rural folks or those without basements or crawl spaces. It was a totally different atmosphere and mindset. The Soviets were regarded as a vague threat instead of something to worry about on a daily basis.

 

I was a military brat too. Most of our postings were overseas - in fact we lived about 2 miles from the Czech border when the Russians rolled in (1968, I think?) That was a pretty scary time - there would have been no time to evacuate if they decided to cross the border.  I had dog tags, but was never required to wear them. And we never (in my experience) had duck and cover drills. Since I knew many other non-military Americans who did, I've always believed the military knew it was a pointless effort.

 

Mikhail Gorbachev takes office in March 1985 - a little over 2 years from the current timeline of the show. The mister and I hope the show goes on long enough for Elizabeth and Phillip to deal with Perestroika and the eventual fall of the Soviet Union.

[againstthewind]

Happy almost birthday!

I was the same way with one of the best espionage shows ever - AMC's Rubicon. I had to watch each episode at least twice to see everything that was going on and understand it all. Unfortunately, because it took intense watching, with no distractions, it didn't catch on. These types of shows aren't popular with people with short attention spans and that need some analytical thought. Kudos to you for delving into the background and looking things up.

 

Hah, thank you. I'm actually a leap day baby, but you celebrate when you can!

[gwhh]

I thought he was a security guard and NOT a cop!?!

I know for sure, from now on when I work on my car. Two Safely jacks under it for sure!

I'm willing to believe that Philip and Elizabeth are the best at what they do, therefore they will be difficult to catch.  I think it would help if more spies (Russian and others) were being caught and punished.  Emmett and Leanne were killed, but by their own people.  Lucia was killed, again by another bad guy.  Nina is being punished, but not by us.  I try to tell myself that they're fighting Reagan, and that does help a little.

 

I think that all of the reasons listed here have contributed to the lower ratings.  I initially only stumbled upon the show because season one followed an American Horror Story finale - I saw no other advertisement.  And that's continued.  I'm inundated by info every season building up suspense for AHS, not so this show.

 

I think this show is less appealing to those who aren't comfortable with rooting against their country.  My mom watched the first season until they killed the cop.  She hasn't watched since.  I think it's also less appealing to those disinterested in the romance between Philip and Elizabeth, as well as their family dynamics.  That's the big draw for me.

 

It is a show that you really have to focus on and pay attention to.  There isn't much short term reward, and the writers expect the viewers to be smart.  That may not be appealing to those who don't like to post on boards, and read other's opinions.

[solargal]

Did anyone already mention that the house Lisa is staying at is the house where Paige ran away to so she could meet her 'grandmother'?

[sistermagpie]

Did anyone already mention that the house Lisa is staying at is the house where Paige ran away to so she could meet her 'grandmother'?

 

 

It was her great great aunt--but I didn't think it was the same house.

[Peanutbuttercup]

I think one of the issues that might be leading to some of the ratings drop is all the focus and drama surrounding Paige. I would have thought the showrunners would have learned from Homeland: #no1curr about the teenage children of the spies in drama/thriller shows. One of the reasons Homeland went off the rails the season before last was all the focus on Dana Brody. The showrunners there admitted they made a misstep with that.

[chocolatine]

It was her great great aunt--but I didn't think it was the same house.

 

It definitely wasn't the same house. The woman who pretends to be Elizabeth's aunt lives somewhere in PA and Paige had to take a long bus ride to get there, and it seems like the woman lives there full-time - she was there when Paige showed up without warning. The house also has pictures of "real" Elizabeth on the walls, i.e. without a wig. 

 

I think the house they put Lisa in is still in the DC metro area, so "Michelle" can drop by for visits.

[albaniantv]

I didn't know the ratings were slipping. Hope the PWTB value other indicators than ratings. FX leaders on record that Emmys would help. Maybe it means something that the Americans is one of only 9 or 10 shows recapped by the NYTimes. Altho the Brits (ITV) just cancelled it, show is broadcast in Ireland, Australia and Canada. It was popular for last 2 years in UK:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/tvandradioblog/2014/dec/08/the-best-tv-shows-of-2014-sherlock-veep-doctor-who-house-of-cards

 

Interesting to read here the reasons viewers might be going elsewhere. I don't think of the presentation of the FBI as uniformly inept; we often hear detailed, insightful reviews of why they are going down one path and not another. As an example, when the phone call came in from the remorseful CIA female agent at the bar with Elizabeth, the area was flooded with response teams in short order and Elizabeth had a very dicey escape. Milky Way probably didn't fall into our laps, more likely she was carefully hooked and reeled in by U.S. agents.

 

Rather than plot problems, it's easier for me to believe the viewers are drifting away to other better advertised and more often repeated shows.

With the poisoned spy trial in London, the dangerous situation with the Ukraine,and lesser but growing problems in the Baltics, it's hard for me to accept there are fewer viewers captivated by this show.  

[Law Mom]

The reason the ratings are low is that the show is thought provoking and requires a bit of effort. Most people are stupid and lazy.

[DB in CMH]

Random thoughts:

 

I just can't believe that the Philip/Kimmie relationship hasn't blown up in Philip's face yet.  All of those people that saw Kimmie with Philip most likely would have cackled like hens long before now, and presumably an adult or teacher would know about it.  This isn't the type of thing that is ever kept quiet.  The whole way that Philip initially met Kimmie doesn't make any sense to me either.  I could buy into a one on one meeting where Kimmie wanted a fake I.D.. I just can't buy into it with Kimmie's friends added into the mix.

 

As for Elizabeth, I have no use for her.  Knocking out the jack so the person under the car gets crushed was horrible, but completely within Elizabeth's character.  I just don't care anymore.

 

I don't know what to think of Stan, he really is in over his head in just about every aspect of this show.

 

I have no one to root for.  No one that I care about.

 

The Americans still look like fools and Philip and Elizabeth still seem to be able to do what they want, when they want, with very little resistance.

 

Given how absolutely horrible the ratings are for this show, apparently I am not the only one that is having issues with the shows current direction.  I think the show is done after this season, and I think the writers should have seen this coming.

 

I'm a huge history buff and have read tonnes of books on the Soviet Union. The "too smart" for the average viewer excuse doesn't fly. I don't know how a show that is about spies, stakeouts, murders and hidden identities could be so. fucking. tedious. I made it through the first two seasons okay, but have struggled through season 3. I made it through episode 4 tonight, then halfway through episode 5 I just gave up. I don't care what happens. And I bet the scores of viewers that the show has lost feel the same.

 

Over on AV Club, somebody coined the term the "James Bond" effect for some other series, about how hard it was to take any element of danger seriously because James Bond never dies. I have the exact same problem with The Americans. The series has toyed  with putting Phillip and Elizabeth in mortal danger/danger of being caught for 3 seasons now, but if that occurs, the show is done. They are the show. Thus, I can't take it seriously. 

 

/rant. And end of watching the show. 

[albaniantv]

Interesting DB in CMH -- your comments about the James Bond effect. Maybe that explains why so much focus is shifting to the teenagers. I guess we could lose one or more of them without losing the show, but, as Nixon used to say, it would be wrong.

[Bannon]

 

Interesting to read here the reasons viewers might be going elsewhere. I don't think of the presentation of the FBI as uniformly inept; we often hear detailed, insightful reviews of why they are going down one path and not another. As an example, when the phone call came in from the remorseful CIA female agent at the bar with Elizabeth, the area was flooded with response teams in short order and Elizabeth had a very dicey escape. Milky Way probably didn't fall into our laps, more likely she was carefully hooked and reeled in by U.S. agents.

 

 

 

Dicey escapes have been the bane of this program. The dicey escape in the season 1 finale was really dumb, and nearly caused me to quit it. The dicey escape when E & P are followed leaving the CIA agent's open house renders the entire Afghan Group story arc ridiculous' from that moment on, the CIA and FBI would assume the entire Afghan Group blown, and react accordingly. Don't get me started on seeing a woman beating the soup out of men who have been trained in self defense and who outweigh her by a hundred pounds; that really is the dumbest action picture trope ever.

 

If you want to write t.v for smart viewers (if we are going to engage in self-flattery), then you cant write consistently stupid stuff.

[Bannon]

I'm a huge history buff and have read tonnes of books on the Soviet Union. The "too smart" for the average viewer excuse doesn't fly. I don't know how a show that is about spies, stakeouts, murders and hidden identities could be so. fucking. tedious. I made it through the first two seasons okay, but have struggled through season 3. I made it through episode 4 tonight, then halfway through episode 5 I just gave up. I don't care what happens. And I bet the scores of viewers that the show has lost feel the same.

 

Over on AV Club, somebody coined the term the "James Bond" effect for some other series, about how hard it was to take any element of danger seriously because James Bond never dies. I have the exact same problem with The Americans. The series has toyed  with putting Phillip and Elizabeth in mortal danger/danger of being caught for 3 seasons now, but if that occurs, the show is done. They are the show. Thus, I can't take it seriously. 

 

/rant. And end of watching the show. 

Yep, the show would have been better if the writers had injected a lot more John LeCarre, and a lot less Ian Fleming. 

[sistermagpie]

Interesting DB in CMH -- your comments about the James Bond effect. Maybe that explains why so much focus is shifting to the teenagers. I guess we could lose one or more of them without losing the show, but, as Nixon used to say, it would be wrong.

 

 

The story has not shifted to the teenagers. The story is about P&E as a couple, and this season they're struggling over the parenting issue. We're not following Paige to high school and getting her life, we're just seeing the things she's doing that directly play into the big conflict which is not whether or not they'll get caught but the philosophical disagreement about Paige and the KGB.

[lucindabelle]

I also was so turned off by the Jared thing that I'm watching haphazardly now.

Did the real couple show was based on have zero trace of an accent? I never find that believable.

Aw poor Kimmie.

Yaz... No. Was not on mtv. Said it in last ep thread (watched both last night)... Yay wasn't mainstream so for Kimmie and Paige to know them seems unlikely, gogos or reo speed wagon.

-- class of 82

[benteen]

I'm disappointed to hear about the ratings and I hope they improve as I want to see this show go on.  I wonder if one of the contributing factors to the low ratings is that The Americans is a completely humorless show.  I have no issue with this but this show is almost a completely humor free one and I would not characterize is as "fun."

Edited March 1, 2015 by benteen

[Chaos Theory]

I'm disappointed to hear about the ratings and I hope they improve as I want to see this show go on. I wonder if one of the contributing factors to the low ratings is that The Americans is a completely humorless show. I have no issue with this but this show is almost a completely humor free one and I would not characterize is as "fun."

I am disappointed as well because this as well as Hannibal (another under watched underrated show) are my two favorite shows on television right now. I kinda understand why it just annoys me. Both shows are incredibly well written, well acted and well directed and no one is watching because they are not "easy". Instead easier shows that (at least in my opinion) are not as well made are being watched and gushed upon as works of art while actual works of art are being left in the cold(war).

[Dev F]

I think we can all agree that the reason the ratings are dropping is because viewers were turned off by whatever specific thing we personally dislike about the show.

 

Seriously, though, I only care about the ratings inasmuch as they're high enough to keep the show on the air, so other people's specific likes and dislikes seem fairly inconsequential. And if it turns out that the ratings have dropped below that threshold, well, three years of amazing television is nothing to sneeze at. And considering I find the past few episodes to be among the strongest work the show has ever done, there's not much I'd be willing to change about it even if it meant the show gets to trundle on for a few more years.

 

That doesn't mean there's nothing I would change. I think I mentioned that I found the first couple episodes of the season a bit meandering, and I could quibble about specific choices in particular episodes, like the way they handled the Jared revelation at the end of last season. But if the argument is that the writers should clearly have changed some fundamental element of the series or the season to hang on to a few more viewers, no thank you.

 

As sistermagpie said, the Paige debate and the Philip/Kimmy storyline are as much about Philip and Elizabeth as anything the show has done since the pilot. They are at the heart of what the show has always been about, and I wouldn't trade them for anything, regardless of whether other viewers find them unsettling or teenyboppery.

[chocolatine]

I love this show and I'm sad that more people don't watch it, but I also don't think this is the kind of show that can/should go on for a bajillion seasons anyway. There's only so many close calls they can believably have before one of them gets caught. And I want to see the fallout from that: Stan's reaction, interrogation/trial/media frenzy, possible defection to avoid death penalty, the one that didn't get caught trying to disappear with the kids, the kids' reaction, The Center trying to rescue the one that got caught, deportation/resettlement back to Russia - they could fill several episodes with the aftermath. Then end the show with a flash-forward to the present with geriatric P&E reminiscing about their lives, and a glimpse of how Paige and Henry turned out as adults. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by chocolatine

[millennium]

Would even FX go there with Philip seducing a 15 year old?

 

Where is everyone tonight?  I hope this isn't a sign people are giving up on this show!

 

If FX keeps pushing the sex-with-a-minor angle, a.k.a. pedophilia, I'm going to be one of those giving up.

 

The writers must think they're pretty clever for finding a technically acceptable way to show a grown man sexually molesting a teenager on TV -- it's not about the sex, he's on assignment -- but by skirting the usual taboos attached to this sort of thing, they are in a way validating the behavior. 

 

This show got a lot uglier this season. 

[sistermagpie]

If FX keeps pushing the sex-with-a-minor angle, a.k.a. pedophilia, I'm going to be one of those giving up.

 

 

Not to defend adults having sex with teenagers, but it's not pedophilia. She's not a child--like pre-adolescent. She's old enough to be pregnant, and if she was having sex with a boy her age it would be fine (depending on the relationship, of course). Not sure why I'm making that distinction--but I think it is an important part of her character that she is old enough to choose to have sex--that just doesn't justify a creep going along with that.

 

I think the idea is that while the sex is wrong, there's even more wrong with it--and Philip himself, in the flashback, is also a teenager having sex with adults, just as Elizabeth was raped by an adult when 17.

 

I can't predict what will happen, but one of the things I like about the story is I don't feel like I'm being made to want the two of them to sleep together or see it as okay or even titillating. (It might be to some viewers, but I don't feel like that's the point.) I appreciate that, as someone else pointed out to me, Kimmie isn't sexualized by the camera or played as some Lolita character. She and Jim both seem more at ease when they're in the kitchen with a kitchen island between them than having to cuddle together. (If Jim were a real guy he would have totally used that food fight to start wrestling with Kimmie to get the physical contact, but Philip really does want it).

 

So for me it seems like if he sleeps with her we know what it means. I means she's been abused in a terrible way, that he's been abused in a way that will make him even more self-loathing and destroy some of his relationship with his daughter etc. But I'm not so sure the show's interested in going there. It just seems far more interesting to have them avoid that. The fact that they put in these flashbacks of Philip as a sexually abused teenager makes me feel like it's really more about Philip being able to more clearly articulate his arguments against recruiting Paige rather than just undermining it even more.

 

One can still say that bringing up the issue at all with Philip clearly considering it because it's good for his job is like condoning it but just speaking for myself personally I don't have a problem with going to that ugly place. So far I find their scenes less disturbing than I would Kimmie throwing herself at a real guy who actually wanted to sleep with her.

[Catherinewriter]

I agree with all the reasons people have mentioned for the low/shrinking viewership, but I also suggest a couple of technical problems. Americans does not run the previous season before a new season starts, which is a big no-no.

Also, and this truly bugs me, Americans doesn't go to On Demand until after the next episode airs. I.E., if you miss Episode 1, you can't see it until AFTER episode 2 airs and 2/3, and 3/4, etc. This is a truly f--ked up way to keep viewers' interest. Don't understand it at all. Justified goes On Demand the next day, perhaps other series, too, I don't watch any other FX shows.

Can someone remind me how the carjack guy was identified as someone of interest? As in, how do they know he works in the same department as Lisa, etc. And no way he was still alive.

Also, has anyone kept track of how many people each of them (Philip/Elizabeth) has killed? Outright, not as a result of some ongoing action (as in the Central American thing).

[millennium]

Not to defend adults having sex with teenagers, but it's not pedophilia. She's not a child--like pre-adolescent. She's old enough to be pregnant, and if she was having sex with a boy her age it would be fine (depending on the relationship, of course). Not sure why I'm making that distinction--but I think it is an important part of her character that she is old enough to choose to have sex--that just doesn't justify a creep going along with that.

 

 

I say tomato.

 

I think the idea is that while the sex is wrong, there's even more wrong with it--and Philip himself, in the flashback, is also a teenager having sex with adults, just as Elizabeth was raped by an adult when 17.

 

 

Textbook abused-becomes-the-abuser, although for "work-related" reasons courtesy of the writers.

So far I find their scenes less disturbing than I would Kimmie throwing herself at a real guy who actually wanted to sleep with her.

 

But from Kimmie's perspective, that's precisely what it is.

Also, and this truly bugs me, Americans doesn't go to On Demand until after the next episode airs. I.E., if you miss Episode 1, you can't see it until AFTER episode 2 airs and 2/3, and 3/4, etc. This is a truly f--ked up way to keep viewers' interest. Don't understand it at all. Justified goes On Demand the next day, perhaps other series, too, I don't watch any other FX shows.

 

Do what I do -- forget that the new season started in January, start wondering in February when new episodes will be coming out, then discover that you're already 4 episodes behind so you can binge watch the first third of the season.

[sistermagpie]

I say tomato.

 

    Textbook abused-becomes-the-abuser, although for "work-related" reasons courtesy of the writers.

  

 

    

I'm not quite getting what you're saying with this. Yes, Philip sleeping with Kimmie would be Philip taking the place of the people in his own flashback. But that doesn't seem like a problem to me, and I'm not sure what the quotes around work-related are meant to imply. That Philip really wants to have sex with Kimmie for other reasons? That the show's justifying adult/teen sex for work reasons? Or that the show has orchestrated Philip being faced with this moral dilemma so that they can show adult/teen sex to be titillating? Because to me it seems like the whole scenario's just very on point for everything the show tends to be about to begin with. It doesn't seem like a change from previous seasons.

 

But from Kimmie's perspective, that's precisely what it is.

 

 

What makes it less disturbing to me is just that he's not eager to have sex with her. Had he really been the guy he's portraying there would presumably have been a lot more sexual contact by now--and it wouldn't be as compelling to me as a story.

[millennium]

That the show's justifying adult/teen sex for work reasons? Or that the show has orchestrated Philip being faced with this moral dilemma so that they can show adult/teen sex to be titillating?

 

 

 

I don't get much moral dilemma from Philip.   When he asked Elizabeth, "Should I sleep with her?" it felt like he was asking permission, like he knows it's wrong but he wants someone else to say it's okay, thus absolving him of the moral burden.

 

My gripe with the writers is that they have cleverly found a way to make statutory rape palatable.   Philip's just performing his duty, so that makes it less bad.   And if he enjoys it a little, oh well.     I feel the storyline didn't need to go there, that's it's all titillation.   Sure, it can be argued that it parallels the Paige storyline, but is it truly necessary?   Admittedly, it's great for shock value.   But I'm already tired of shock value this season.   The scene with Annelise's body was more than enough.  

[sistermagpie]

I don't get much moral dilemma from Philip.   When he asked Elizabeth, "Should I sleep with her?" it felt like he was asking permission, like he knows it's wrong but he wants someone else to say it's okay, thus absolving him of the moral burden.

 

 

Ah, I see. To me it reads differently. He doesn't seem particularly squicked by the sexual aspect, it's true. But I took that as just that he doesn't get squicked by much in that area. He seems to have more sex than he wants already, though, so it doesn't seem like he has any personal desire to sleep with her. That is, her being underage doesn't seem like a turn-on to him to me. I took that line as him being honestly unsure what to do--he doesn't like honeytrapping a kid this young, but sees the value in it spy-wise. Neither him or Elizabeth are reacting to it like the sex part is so much worse on someone this age.

 

But then, I also feel like the point is to not have him sleep with her. I feel the same way as you do about the show just maneuvering Philip to sleep with a teenager for shock value, so your reaction is very logical to me too.

[Boundary]

Philip and Elizabeth have been doing brutal things from day one. Their actions, including Philip sleeping with Kimberly, should't be too surprising given that the guy spent most of last season murdering people, including innocent janitors. The under age sex falls into the same category, it bothers him that he has to do so (just like those killings last year) but he does it nevertheless. 

 

I don't get much moral dilemma from Philip.   When he asked Elizabeth, "Should I sleep with her?" it felt like he was asking permission, like he knows it's wrong but he wants someone else to say it's okay, thus absolving him of the moral burden.

 

 

I read that differently. Like I've pointed out, Philip does a lot of things he doesn't like. It's one of the main reasons he doesn't want Paige recruited. But that whole conversation in the bedroom with Philip was so layered, and I'd put "transferring moral burden to someone else" at the bottom. I knew Elizabeth would ask about herself as soon as the conversation moved in that direction but she brought up Kimmy first. And when he asked her if he should sleep with her, he was asking as a (true) husband. This was not a professional question and her answer was interesting and deserves highlighting. On a personal level, this most stoic of operators either 1. didn't know if professionally this was a line Philip should cross or 2. if sleeping with the girl would jeopardize their own personal marriage. Philip and Elizabeth have two marriages: the professional one used as a front, known to the KGB and one that shifts to accommodate Clarke's timetable for instance; and the more personal one that involves only the two of them and their kids.

 

Over on AV Club, somebody coined the term the "James Bond" effect for some other series, about how hard it was to take any element of danger seriously because James Bond never dies. 

 

 

For me it's the opposite: I feel way too much tension that Philip and/or Elizabeth will get caught. I tense up every time they put on a disguise. On Alias, say, that James Bond effect was in full flow, except that we knew that Syd would get caught in every mission but also that the music will kick in and she'd fight her way out of there. I still enjoyed that series immensely. On this show, in the 3rd season, I've found that I've become too invested in them not getting caught, I coil up until the credits roll. I relax a bit when Stan, Nina or Oleg are on screen and I seem to "enjoy" those scenes more. I also enjoy the Jennings family scenes more this year, they are layered (even taking your daughter shopping means something, like a chess move!). I still adore the show but sometimes I put it off for a few hours (or days) until I'm in the mood to handle the inevitable tension. And if my experience is not unique, that might partially explain the live ratings.

[BW Manilowe]

I agree with all the reasons people have mentioned for the low/shrinking viewership, but I also suggest a couple of technical problems. Americans does not run the previous season before a new season starts, which is a big no-no.

Also, and this truly bugs me, Americans doesn't go to On Demand until after the next episode airs. I.E., if you miss Episode 1, you can't see it until AFTER episode 2 airs and 2/3, and 3/4, etc. This is a truly f--ked up way to keep viewers' interest. Don't understand it at all. Justified goes On Demand the next day, perhaps other series, too, I don't watch any other FX shows.

Can someone remind me how the carjack guy was identified as someone of interest? As in, how do they know he works in the same department as Lisa, etc. And no way he was still alive.

Also, has anyone kept track of how many people each of them (Philip/Elizabeth) has killed? Outright, not as a result of some ongoing action (as in the Central American thing).

Responding to the bolded comment.

I'm positive FX ran S1 before S2 started, & S2 before S3 started.

I *know* I saw listings for S2 eps between S2 & S3. I saw 'em in the last few weeks before S3 started.

But, I couldn't watch them 'cause I was away from my usual cable provider between the end of August & 10 days before Christmas, through no fault of my own, FX wasn't in the channel packages where I was, & some or all of that timeframe was when they were repeating S2.

However... They pretty much only ran the eps for both seasons in the post-midnight to pre-dawn hours (1 of the last things aired before "Paid Programming" started), rather than in or close to Primetime.

Perhaps that's why mostly everybody missed them. You had to be a "night owl"/insomniac or know when to set your DVR for to catch them.

[DB in CMH]

I love this show and I'm sad that more people don't watch it, but I also don't think this is the kind of show that can/should go on for a bajillion seasons anyway. There's only so many close calls they can believably have before one of them gets caught. And I want to see the fallout from that: Stan's reaction, interrogation/trial/media frenzy, possible defection to avoid death penalty, the one that didn't get caught trying to disappear with the kids, the kids' reaction, The Center trying to rescue the one that got caught, deportation/resettlement back to Russia - they could fill several episodes with the aftermath. Then end the show with a flash-forward to the present with geriatric P&E reminiscing about their lives, and a glimpse of how Paige and Henry turned out as adults. 

 

I would totally watch that! I guess my gripe for The Americans is that, a) it is completely humorless, and b) nothing really happens. I mean, things happen on screen - murders, espionage, what have you - but there's just no forward momentum because nothing they do has any long term consequence. Personally, I'm interested in seeing how it ends with Martha, but they've been doddering along on that for 2 seasons. The overall story with her just never moves anywhere. I'm not saying that it's a bad show, because I can recognize that Felicity and Matthew are giving great performances. But, as somebody said above, it's kind of like chess. I can recognize it as a great game, but I don't want to watch it being played. 

 

I think one of them getting caught/turned, perhaps without the other knowing, would be an amazing twist. 

 

Ratings hover around a 0.2 in adults 18-49. That's virtually off the map. It did get renewed with similar ratings last season, though, and with Sons of Anarchy gone FX does have holes in its schedule. So it may survive based on that alone.

[sistermagpie]

I would totally watch that! I guess my gripe for The Americans is that, a) it is completely humorless, and b) nothing really happens.

 

 

I always feel the opposite--that a lot  happens in every episode. It's just that it all happens on the micro-level. The murders etc. are only important for how it shifts the characters and central relationship. Paige announcing she wants to be baptized is a far bigger thing than Elizabeth dropping a car on that guy.

[Boundary]

I always feel the opposite--that a lot  happens in every episode. It's just that it all happens on the micro-level. The murders etc. are only important for how it shifts the characters and central relationship. Paige announcing she wants to be baptized is a far bigger thing than Elizabeth dropping a car on that guy.

 

Exactly, it's a character show more than anything. Comparisons should be to Mad Men and Masters of Sex rather than Generic Spy Shows. This episode, for instance, was about parenting: Kimberly and her dad, Stan and Matthew, Martha and her future adoptee, Philip and Paige. But it was all so subtle, it's easy to miss the thoughtful detail that went into the writing.

 

Hype will come when award nominations come. Until then, the show can exist underneath the cultural consciousness. And when one day both Matthew and Keri win best actor Emmys or Golden Globes, with noms for Noah and Annet for best supporting actor and maybe even a Best Drama nomination/win, then people will start checking it out and FX will feel more confident in putting it out there more. [/end of daydream]

[Blakeston]

Did the real couple show was based on have zero trace of an accent? I never find that believable.

At least several of the people in the real-life illegals program had thick Eastern European accents. (Including one woman who tried to explain away her accent by saying that she was Canadian!)

 

 

I don't get much moral dilemma from Philip.   When he asked Elizabeth, "Should I sleep with her?" it felt like he was asking permission, like he knows it's wrong but he wants someone else to say it's okay, thus absolving him of the moral burden.

I think Philip absolutely loathes the idea of sleeping with the girl. The only reason he's even considering it is because he's been told that it's his duty, and that it's hugely important for his country.

They've been given plenty of horrifying orders in the past, and he rarely questioned if he should go through with it. For him to ask Elizabeth if he should refuse is a sign that he's extremely uncomfortable with it.

[Guest]

When Phillip is listening to news report, and Elizabeth walks in, I believe the report pertained to the Salang Pass tunnel fire. It was a major setback for the Soviets in Afghanistan, and I think one of the major elements going forward in the show is going to be how the news out of Afghanistan, from the Soviet perspective, keeps getting worse and worse, despite Philip and Elizabeth's best efforts to counter what the U.S. government is doing to aid Afghans who are fighting the Soviets.

 

I do think the show's timeline is off slightly with regard to the fire and the death of Breshnev.

 

I listened to a Slate podcast the writers did and they said they're fastidious about dates and details like that.  They even made sure the Fantasy Island episode playing in the background was in the right part of the broadcast for the time it was in the show.  They said they fudge nothing, even when a tiny one would be a huge plus to a story.  

When Gabriel said to Philip, "You have a conscience." it was so clear to me that he meant "Elizabeth does not and it's not such a great thing that you do. Maybe get that under control." Ugh. Gabriel frightens me -- and Frank Langella is so good! I saw him play Dracula on Broadway many years ago and have always remembered it.

All I remember Langella from is an 80s comedy movie called Love at First Bite where he was the vampire!

 

I think Wednesday nights have a lot of competition.  My DVR is booked.  The Americans does seem slightly less 'must see' this season, for me.  I guess the whole "do we or don't we blow our covers to our child" story is a little silly to me.  Still love the show, though.

[sistermagpie]

They said they fudge nothing, even when a tiny one would be a huge plus to a story.

 

 

Well, not always. They moved a Reagan speech because he was saying something that fit the storyline. But they're generally accurate. The Reagan thing was early on and maybe they changed their mind about it.

 

All I remember Langella from is an 80s comedy movie called Love at First Bite where he was the vampire!

 

 

No, that was George Hamilton. Frank Langella was in the 80s Dracula movie (as well as the play version--I saw that too!).

[shura]

I listened to a Slate podcast the writers did and they said they're fastidious about dates and details like that.  They even made sure the Fantasy Island episode playing in the background was in the right part of the broadcast for the time it was in the show.  They said they fudge nothing, even when a tiny one would be a huge plus to a story.

 

I don't know. The Salang tunnel fire happened on Nov 3, Brezhnev died on Nov 10, and this episode takes place at least a few days after Brezhnev's death. I thought at first that maybe the fire was not discovered and reported on in the West until a few weeks after it had happened (that is, until the time of this episode), but no, apparently it was reported as early as Nov 9. (The article is a very interesting read, btw.) It has to be that what Philip is listening to on BBC and watching on TV are not the first instances he is hearing about it then.

 

I was wondering where the video footage of the fire came from, the one that is playing on TV when Philip and Kimmie are stoned at her house. Could it have come from a Western reporter on the scene? I would think (and the NY Times article states so, too) that reporters would not be allowed to send it out, even if they happened to be able to film it in the first place. Stock footage of some unrelated fire?

Edited March 2, 2015 by shura

[Loandbehold]

 

I think Philip absolutely loathes the idea of sleeping with the girl. The only reason he's even considering it is because he's been told that it's his duty, and that it's hugely important for his country.

 

I agree that Philp hates the idea, but he's considering it not just because he was ordered to it. To accomplish the job, it's easier for him if he sleeps with Kimmie. They have sex, she falls asleep, and he can now go where he planted the bug and get whatever information it has. Rinse, lather, repeat. If he doesn't sleep with her, then he has to stay around, and hope that she falls asleep before he has to pull away. She's not always going to fall asleep watching a movie. He might drug her cherry pop, but that presents its own risks.

 

I also think his question to Elizabeth is done on two levels. One is whether she believes it's necessary for him to sleep with her. The second is, if he does, will she be upset. And, Elizabeth is conflicted and can't answer. So she says that she doesn't know. If this was season one, I don't think she'd hesitate to tell him that he has to do whatever is needed to get the job done.

 

On a more humorous note, whenever I see any tv show or movie that has a similar storyline (older man getting involved with underage girl), I always think back to an episode of Hill Street Blues where one of the cops is dating a sixteen year-old. His partner tells him, "Three words, my man. Statue. Tory. Rape." I hope Philip thinks about those words before he takes that final step.

[sistermagpie]

I agree that Philp hates the idea, but he's considering it not just because he was ordered to it. To accomplish the job, it's easier for him if he sleeps with Kimmie. They have sex, she falls asleep, and he can now go where he planted the bug and get whatever information it has. Rinse, lather, repeat. If he doesn't sleep with her, then he has to stay around, and hope that she falls asleep before he has to pull away. She's not always going to fall asleep watching a movie. He might drug her cherry pop, but that presents its own risks.

 

 

But she could easily stay awake chatting after sex. (And as we saw in The Clock he doesn't have to return to the actual bug to get the info from it--that transmits somewhere else.) The sex is, as I understand it, there to give him a real hold over her for a longterm relationship. If they're just friends Kimmie might move on to some other older guy who will sleep with her or just not feel as connected to him. To her, sex is the proof that they're really in a relationship. Plus, like all honeytraps, the romance ties her to him. Then she'll do things for him just like Martha and Anneleise did. Having the daughter of the head of the CIA Afghan group under your influence is good the way it was to have the wife of a guy in the defense department or the secretary to the head of counterintelligence. 

 

It has to be that what Philip is listening to on BBC and watching on TV are not the first instances he is hearing about it then.

 

 

This actually makes a lot of sense to me that they were showing us not Philip hearing about the news, but Philip silently *obsessing* over this incident throughout the episode. It suddenly makes me think of the little boy in the movie Apollo 13 who talks to his father about an earlier accident where astronauts died before his father goes into space. His father first tries to explain to him the logistics of that accident, explaining that the door is shut so they couldn't get out...but quickly realizes he's just freaking the kid out more. The kid's just fixated on this incident and this happening to his father. So when something does go wrong in space the little boy's first question is, "Was it the door?"

 

Anyway, I'm thinking something similar with Philip, that there's no real connection between what he's doing and this incident but something about it sticks in his mind as a symbol of what he's trying to prevent. He already had the submarine full of boys blow up thanks to his intel, now he's got more soldiers trapped in a fiery tunnel.

Edited March 2, 2015 by sistermagpie

[gunderda]

Yes! For context, I'm 26 (well, for another hour and a half...) and was born right before the Soviet Union fell. Everything I learned about the Soviets was stuff I've looked up on my own. TBH, I really enjoy the show, but it's not what I'd call an easy watch. I often have to watch the show twice, once while looking up events and once again to catch the stuff I missed the first time. Mad Men is a tough watch, this is a master class in dedicated viewing. I can't deal with distractions while it's on. Most people my age have 1000000 things going on while watching TV. This isn't the show for them, sadly.

Ditto to this.  I have a low attention span when watching TV and it took me 2 seasons of this show to realized that I can NOT be doing anything else while watching otherwise I have no idea what's going on lol 

 

And I hope this show doesn't get cancelled :( 

[Guest]

Well, not always. They moved a Reagan speech because he was saying something that fit the storyline. But they're generally accurate. The Reagan thing was early on and maybe they changed their mind about it.

 

 

No, that was George Hamilton. Frank Langella was in the 80s Dracula movie (as well as the play version--I saw that too!).

Oh you're right!  My memory sucks.  No pun intended.  I guess though both were from 1979, so it's quite a ways back!  I was Paige's age.  Langella was much hotter than George Hamilton!  

[Boundary]

Frank Langella is bringing sheer weight to this role, that soft spoken old man sounds more threatening than anything Oleg and Stan can muster.

[Blakeston]

I agree that Philp hates the idea, but he's considering it not just because he was ordered to it. To accomplish the job, it's easier for him if he sleeps with Kimmie. They have sex, she falls asleep, and he can now go where he planted the bug and get whatever information it has. Rinse, lather, repeat. If he doesn't sleep with her, then he has to stay around, and hope that she falls asleep before he has to pull away. She's not always going to fall asleep watching a movie. He might drug her cherry pop, but that presents its own risks.

 

I also think his question to Elizabeth is done on two levels. One is whether she believes it's necessary for him to sleep with her. The second is, if he does, will she be upset. And, Elizabeth is conflicted and can't answer. So she says that she doesn't know. If this was season one, I don't think she'd hesitate to tell him that he has to do whatever is needed to get the job done.

 

On a more humorous note, whenever I see any tv show or movie that has a similar storyline (older man getting involved with underage girl), I always think back to an episode of Hill Street Blues where one of the cops is dating a sixteen year-old. His partner tells him, "Three words, my man. Statue. Tory. Rape." I hope Philip thinks about those words before he takes that final step.

 

Gabriel seemed to fully expect Philip to have sex with the girl.

 

So far as I recall, no one on the show seems to have acknowledged the possibility that Philip could get the information a different way - like befriending her and flirting with her without actually screwing her.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers just like the idea of "Philip can only complete the mission if he commits statutory rape with a Paige stand-in - what will he do?!?!", and so they're just going to act like other options don't exist.

[sistermagpie]

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers just like the idea of "Philip can only complete the mission if he commits statutory rape with a Paige stand-in - what will he do?!?!", and so they're just going to act like other options don't exist.

 

 

I suspect he will consider other options but in this case the characters don't to me come across as willfully blind to other options when they talk like this to me. Kimmie was targeted when she was heard throwing herself at a man old enough to be her father, begging him for sex. That's why she's targeted as a honeytrap and so far that's the relationship--she's still pursuing, kissing "Jim" and trying to get him to put his arm around her. Befriending and flirting with her is what he's doing now, but they're not crazy to assume that the point is to turn her into another Martha who's in love with her KGB boyfriend. 

 

It's logical to think that if Philip doesn't play out the romantic fantasy Kimmie's said she wanted, she'll just drop him--Clark can't even completely put his foot down on the foster kid issue! Kimmie's continued to be at least somewhat aggressive physically and Jim's already presented himself as interested in such. So if she kisses him...how does he not kiss back while still hanging around? So I think Gabriel telling Philip that he just can't see how he can run her longterm without an affair is Gabriel at least somewhat acknowledging other options by saying he just can't see how they'll work.

 

But this being Philip and this being The Americans it's quite possible that another option will present itself in the moment. Like Kimmie will continue to be aggressive but then get cold feet herself when Philip responds--or hell, maybe it doesn't even need to get that far. Just one of those weird human moments where Kimmie veers away from the stereotype she was targeted as. As the agent who's actually on the ground with her Philip could easily pivot and grab that opportunity, but it's not something any of them are going to feel like they can really play to ahead of time. If Jim led off by trying to be a Pastor Tim figure Kimmie might reject him for treating her like a kid and go off in search of the lover she thinks she wants. They could totally create a weird platonic relationship but I think that's something they'd have to almost stumble into themselves in the moment because few people would even understand it except for the two of them, is my guess.

[Blakeston]

I suspect he will consider other options but in this case the characters don't to me come across as willfully blind to other options when they talk like this to me. Kimmie was targeted when she was heard throwing herself at a man old enough to be her father, begging him for sex. That's why she's targeted as a honeytrap and so far that's the relationship--she's still pursuing, kissing "Jim" and trying to get him to put his arm around her. Befriending and flirting with her is what he's doing now, but they're not crazy to assume that the point is to turn her into another Martha who's in love with her KGB boyfriend. 

 

It's logical to think that if Philip doesn't play out the romantic fantasy Kimmie's said she wanted, she'll just drop him--Clark can't even completely put his foot down on the foster kid issue! Kimmie's continued to be at least somewhat aggressive physically and Jim's already presented himself as interested in such. So if she kisses him...how does he not kiss back while still hanging around? So I think Gabriel telling Philip that he just can't see how he can run her longterm without an affair is Gabriel at least somewhat acknowledging other options by saying he just can't see how they'll work.

 

But this being Philip and this being The Americans it's quite possible that another option will present itself in the moment. Like Kimmie will continue to be aggressive but then get cold feet herself when Philip responds--or hell, maybe it doesn't even need to get that far. Just one of those weird human moments where Kimmie veers away from the stereotype she was targeted as. As the agent who's actually on the ground with her Philip could easily pivot and grab that opportunity, but it's not something any of them are going to feel like they can really play to ahead of time. If Jim led off by trying to be a Pastor Tim figure Kimmie might reject him for treating her like a kid and go off in search of the lover she thinks she wants. They could totally create a weird platonic relationship but I think that's something they'd have to almost stumble into themselves in the moment because few people would even understand it except for the two of them, is my guess.

 

If the other characters have been thinking about other ways of using Kimmie, they haven't said anything about them. As soon as they found out about her existence when she hit on her father's colleague, the only option they've discussed has been seducing her.

 

Maybe they'll bring up other options in the future - it wouldn't surprise me. But if Philip is open to using her in a nonsexual way, and we just aren't hearing any discussion of it, then that would lend support to the idea that he really doesn't want to sleep with her, and that he'll only do it if he absolutely has to.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Blakeston

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I know they haven't brought up any other possibility but that makes perfect sense. Why would they? Her hitting on the dad's colleague was the weak spot they were looking for. No other one's been presented thus far. They go by what she wants. If she wants a boyfriend they get her the boyfriend she wants. She gave them the only script they have so far and they're following it.And it's working. Kimmie responded to Jim the potential boyfriend.

[Guest]

I think we'll see a sex scene of some sort between them because if I was a writer, I would go there on a show like this.  But I think it'll be written in a way that leaves Philip likable.  He'll keep her interested without actually taking her virginity or something.  

 

If I was Philip, I think I could fool Kimmie with a lie like "impotence since PTSD from Nam-- be patient, I'll get there.  We can do other things..."  I mean, how many nights does he need free reign over the dude's study?  He's had it once.  Plant the bug, back off.  No?