S10.E12: About A Boy

[catrox14]

The length is good but I think the length is affecting how it's laying on his head. But I will say it looked during the bar scene. But other than that it's laying oddly on his head.

 

I hope Jensen grows his hair a bit longer on the sides..

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[ItsABear]

The length is good but I think the length is affecting how it's laying on his head. But I will say it looked during the bar scene. But other than that it's laying oddly on his head.

 

That's why I think it needs layers at this length.

[bethy]

It definitely needs layers. It looks like a bob sometimes now.  I swear there was a scene in the car where Jared actually tucked it behind his ear on one side.  Just no. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by bethy

[rue721]

I'd say Dean was a functioning alcoholic in S4 in the sense that I think he could function because of the alcohol. [...] So, yeah, I'm not sure why the show is making an issue of this drinking thing now either, other than, the current attitude surrounding alcoholism is anyone who drinks regularly must be a drunk and supposedly makes for good drama.

 

I think that in this episode specifically, the point was to have him get pegged as a drunk so that it would make sense that the witch and Hansel would take him, too. Or to make him like the others who the witch and Hansel took. It was maybe a stretch, but it was set up relatively well imo -- better than the thing in Yellow Fever of Dean being affected because he was also a "dick" like the other haunting victims anyway.

 

No idea why they're making Dean's drinking a ~thing~ in general, though. The MoC's storyline is a pretty obvious metaphor for alcoholism, imo, in terms of Dean's relationship with killing, and how the Mark is effecting him physically and emotionally -- but apparently they've decided to have a metaphorical alcoholism *and* a literal alcoholism storyline going on with the same character at the same time? I don't get it. Why do that?

 

So, if they actually wanted to be edgy, they should use it to explore a different side of alcoholism. Eh, maybe they'll get there in the end, but right now, it feels very surface to me.

 

I think "functional alcoholic" was maybe what they were going for with S4? It's pretty extreme to carry around hard liquor on your person at all times and take snorts anytime/anywhere in order to always stay at least semi-buzzed, and I don't know where else they could have been going with Dean doing that. But they didn't really take that (nascent) storyline seriously (such as actually showing *any* consequences of always being buzzed like that, even in terms of his relationship with Sam or with Bobby), so ultimately it just seemed to me like they were trying to do the "drinking as shorthand for ~feelings~" thing, and personally, I found that feeble and obnoxious.

 

I don't really think that they're ever going to do an even marginally realistic alcoholism storyline w/r/t Dean, because what, are they going to have Dean showing early signs of alcohol-related dementia or something? Obviously not. If this were the kind of show to go there, I would even wonder about that hand tremor in terms of that, but it's not that kind of show imo. They aren't even willing to make him clumsy in a fight from having drunk too much beforehand. Plus, I'm sure if they did make him seem like a shell of himself mentally and physically, rather than just emotionally, there are tons of fans who would freak out -- imo that's not even an option for this show. That's fine with me, I don't want to see that. Talk about depressing.

 

What I think has more potential as an interesting or at least more workable storyline is that, imo, Dean has "child of an alcoholic" written all over him, and has since Day 1. (Probably not on purpose, though? No idea). I actually thought *that* was where they were going with all that rage and confusion he was struggling with in S7, especially since that was so wrapped up in him facing that Sam might never get better (from the Hellucinations) and Bobby dying and all that -- rather than that the show was heading toward a(n apparently planned but dropped?) straightforward alcoholism storyline for Dean. (By a storyline about that, I don't mean anything directly referencing the past necessarily, but a storyline about how Dean behaves/his perspective as an adult).

 

Well anyway. I don't have an issue with Dean's drinking on the show per se (though I personally don't enjoy watching it. Drinking a ~2L bottle of liquor on his own, lying to Sam about what he's doing, and then going to a bar? Ugh, please don't), since it seems so unrealistic in terms of how he pretty much never acts different no matter what he drinks and nobody ever has to adjust their own behavior toward him because he's rarely/ever sober. Sam also seems completely oblivious to Dean's access to alcohol and is able/willing to count on him implicitly and wholeheartedly, which is the nail in the coffin for me in terms of the issue having any whiff of realism on the show. But that's why I find the newfound "we're supposed to hope that Dean doesn't drink!" message confusing. Why are we supposed to be afraid of Dean drinking if drinking never seems to have harmed him or anyone around him?

The length is good but I think the length is affecting how it's laying on his head. But I will say it looked during the bar scene. But other than that it's laying oddly on his head.

 

Yeah, he's got pretty hair but an unflattering cut imo. The thing is, that seems like it's *always* true -- and I don't get that. His hair doesn't seem at all difficult to cut or style, but somehow it still never looks right?

Edited February 5, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

My dad was a functional alcoholic. He went to work everyday and not a soul realized he was drinking everyday. It was really pretty terrible. But he could do his job with no ill effects which to this day I do not understand. It was when the home life fell apart because of his drinking that his job became impacted, but the drinking itself did not cause him problems at work.  I shit you not.

 

Alcohol effects people differently. And Dean has been resurrected like 100 times at least. So I think we could fanwank that Dean's body processes alcohol differently than others because of that.  Dean's 40 years in Hell did affect him but he couldn't and wouldn't talk about it. He was self medicating with "Hunter's Helper" just like Bobby, and Sam and Ellen and Jo and every other hunter.  So far, it seems to have worked for him. 

 

I think the one time he actually seemed drunk was in First Born and it was the depressed, angry, done with it all kind of drunk and played beautifully BTW.  Most alcoholics IMO don't drink to the point of sloppy, falling down like Sam when he binge drinks. They drink enough to keep going.

 

But here Dean was drinking to prove to himself he would be okay which made no sense because he drank in MLH to suppress how the Mark made him feel.  It's all screwy and non-sensical for the show to try and conflate those things and make it a PSA. What is the PSA anyway?  Don't get drunk before going hunting with Crowley?  Don't take on the MoC? Don't drink ever? Bleh...It's annoying.

[Aeryn13]

 

The alcoholism was an actual plot point in S7 that was dropped due to time constraints at the end of the year, per Jensen. It was a pretty major sub plot IMO.

That just makes me wanna go back and punch every writer from Season 7 in the face. Not because it was dropped - hallelujah for once - but because whoever in the writing room considered that even remotely in lieu of a storyline needs to be punched. Repeatedly. Or go to Lifetime and peddle that.

 

 

Personally, I think the MoC Dean is more apt to demon-blood-sucking Sam; I'd equate Soulless Sam more to Demon Dean.

 

I agree. Both Demon!Dean and Soulless!Sam were something else than human whereas MOC!Dean and DemonBlood!Sam were still humans but influenced by a powerful supernatural force. 

 

 

Guess the studio execs have a low opinion of our intelligence.  That's okay, I have a much lower one of theirs.

 

Seriously. Noone in their right mind would think that people couldn`t tell two men apart who are of obviously different height and look nothing alike. Do they also think you need to put a worm in an apple to be able to tell it apart from a strawberry? Jesus.

[SueB]

If you are not interested in Tina's dilemma, feel free to move along, I'm ruminating on it a bit...

 

I noticed my mom-instincts didn't kick in for Tina because I just don't consider her a teen. I consider her an adult in a teen body.  Now she's got logistical issues to be sure.  First, she's essentially disappearing.  I'm going to go with Bartender may even report her missing because he seemed to like her.  So, they find her clothes, like the other missing barfly and later she's presumed dead.  Her SSN is no good. Which is fine, because she's running away from her $50,000 in debt.  She wants to dump the old life.

 

So that leaves her essentially in the status of illegal alien -- no id, no birth certificate, no SSN.  These days the Social Security Administration goes to the county officials for where you were born to get the birth certificate.  Tina doesn't strike me as the kind with connections to a criminal element and this would not be a good start.  So, she's going to live off the grid OR she's going to get help.  Maybe she calls the Winchesters (they didn't say "call" but they often do...so I'm going to go with they gave her their number). IF they get her hooked up with false ID (see Charlie via e-mail), then this woman can just about do anything.  She can work at any minimum wage job (just make the ID say she's 16).  Get a GRE. Go to Community College.  Whatever.  The key is the papers.  Without a fake ID, she's forever working minimum wage jobs for cash only.  

 

So...I've decided in my headcanon, that they gave her THEIR number and an e-mail for Charlie.  And Charlie will hook her up.  She can work it from Italy because she's that good.  Boom.  Tina's okay.  

 

Claire, however, is still living homeless waif life. 

[supposebly]

 

Well, if they are going to insist on Jared's hair being long, they should go ahead and have him grow it out enough so he could tie it back (at least some of the time).  It'd be a whole lot distracting that way!

 

No, I'm putting my foot down. No pony tail! *shudder. Not with that forehead.

 

The length right now is fine, the lack of layers....is not. Whoever said he is bangs away from prince valiant is dead on. Generally, I think the atrocity of Sam's hair is indirectly proportional (is that the expression?) to the quality of the episode (bad episode = good hair and vice versa). It's funny, Jared's hair is beautiful, Sam's hair is....difficult.

 

And the flip! The flip! Although I have grown very fond of another kind of flip in Sam's hair in the clown episode of season 2. It's so very hilarious considering how serious he is.

 

Sometimes I think Sam's hair should have his own show.

[Altered Reality]

 

No, I'm putting my foot down. No pony tail! *shudder. Not with that forehead.

That's a point!  Trucker hat/ball cap with hair pulled through the back?  Yeah, no!  Meh, I got nothing.

 

 

And the flip! The flip! Although I have grown very fond of another kind of flip in Sam's hair in the clown episode of season 2. It's so very hilarious considering how serious he is.

Heh!  I was (re)watching this episode during lunch today and Sam's flippy/sticking out hair was very, very distracting.

[DittyDotDot]

From my understanding, the Dean has short hair and Sam has long goes back to Kripke. Sam's hair was long because he was supposed to be the rebel of the family and going against John's more militaristic ideas. Jared once told a funny story at a con of how during the writer's strike, Jensen apparently shaved his head and Jared wanted to shave his also, but made the mistake of asking for permission from the show first. Kripke told him not too because Sam has long hair and Dean has short. It seems to be a holdover from that.

Edited February 5, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

How about a man-bun or partially pulled back?  Yeah I think I remember that about Kripke and that the network has held on fast to that. It's really stupid. I wouldn't mind seeing Jensen with some longer hair for sure.

[rue721]

But here Dean was drinking to prove to himself he would be okay which made no sense because he drank in MLH to suppress how the Mark made him feel.  It's all screwy and non-sensical for the show to try and conflate those things and make it a PSA. What is the PSA anyway?  Don't get drunk before going hunting with Crowley?  Don't take on the MoC? Don't drink ever? Bleh...It's annoying.

 

Yeah, that's why I'm kind of bewildered as to where they're going with this. I just don't even get what the point is of drawing attention to his drinking, unless they're going to have him change it somehow -- but why would he change it if it seems like it's not doing any harm as-is?

 

It would make so much more sense to me if they were to show problems that were coming from him drinking -- at *least* minor stuff, like he's not as sharp or he's clumsier or something -- and he and Sam were to try various ways of dealing with those problems, until both of them had to at least tacitly acknowledged that it was the drinking that was the crux of the issue. Then, Dean could decide what to do about his drinking from there.

 

Instead, though, they've shown him drinking heavily for *years* and it not directly affecting *anything,* and yet we're suddenly supposed to be like, "wait no! don't drink, Dean!" I was thinking for a second that maybe the point was that he was avoiding tackling the problem of the MoC by diverting his attention instead to the more-ordinary-and-less-urgent problem of him drinking too much. But this show doesn't do misdirection like that, so I doubt that's the case.

 

My dad was a functional alcoholic. He went to work everyday and not a soul realized he was drinking everyday. It was really pretty terrible. But he could do his job with no ill effects which to this day I do not understand. It was when the home life fell apart because of his drinking that his job became impacted, but the drinking itself did not cause him problems at work.  I shit you not.

 

Probably it's different for everyone but ime, as long as someone is *minimally* functional, it feels like there are all these various problems to deal with when it comes to their behavior, and maybe you also don't like their drinking -- but you don't necessarily connect the problems with each other and/or with the drinking. And even if *you* connect the problems and the drinking, what do you do with that conclusion/information?

 

Warning:  Massive Over-Share. Figured this would be clearer if I at least weren't *completely* speaking in the abstract. My dad drinks heavily and he has a lot of problems that probably (but not necessarily?) are related to that, like he hasn't been able to hold down a job for a long time, constantly has bizarre interpersonal problems with people (even strangers), a lot of relatively minor but disruptive health problems, can't/won't handle even basic responsibilities (like driving), etc. Once you resign yourself to the fact that these problems are here to stay in any case, though, there's not really a reason to even care whether he drinks or not. He has obviously resigned himself to these problems being here to stay, so he doesn't see any reason to ease up or stop the drinking. 

 

That gives me an idea, though -- maybe the point of showing Dean struggle with drinking is to show that he still hasn't resigned himself to his problems being here to stay? He's still looking for ways to tackle them? Idk. Shot in the dark.

[SueB]

Let me try a more simplistic approach.  This is the season of figuring out how to be okay with who you are.  I think Dean is just sorting out who he really is.  So, for example, it's not going to work for him to be on the straight healthy diet*.  It's not him.  It's not going to work for him to never have a drink.  He's going to admit he likes some songs that are not consistent with his past persona (like Taylor Swift).  So he'll take a little of this, a little of that, and learn to be just Dean. Pulling a Dean Winchester -- making sacrifices, saving the day. It's who he is.  

 

*from the montage we saw he was eating take out.  And then someone pointed out (on Tumblr) that if he hasn't left the bunker, Sammy is bringing in the food.  Which makes me realize -- Sam really doesn't know much about cooking.  Okay, he made a grilled cheese that one time but most times Sam give Dean food it's something he buys.  And additional point, if Sam is bringing in the Tex-Mex, then he knows Dean has given up the "clean eating" food approach.  

[AwesomO4000]

And the flip! The flip! Although I have grown very fond of another kind of flip in Sam's hair in the clown episode of season 2. It's so very hilarious considering how serious he is.

 

Sometimes I think Sam's hair should have his own show.

Heh!  I was (re)watching this episode during lunch today and Sam's flippy/sticking out hair was very, very distracting.

 

My favorite was the bouffant of extreme angst from "My Bloody Valentine." It was literally fine just a few minutes before, but extreme angst and poof (literally). I will go to the Sam thread to illustrate.

 

I personally like Sam's hair long. I just wish they would style it better. But I guess that might make him look like he was wasting money on getting his hair done? ::shrug::

 

It did have problems in this episode though.

 

versus you know the 4 inches of height difference and that they don't really look like brothers at all.

 

Although they do seem to have the same color hair and pretty much the same color eyes. It always amuses me that in fanfic, they often have Dean "blond" and Sam with dark hair and/or one has green eyes and the other hazel when in reality, they have really similar hair and eye color. They even went with it in "Fan Fiction" with "Dean" in that really blonde wig and "Sam" with a black one while the real Sam and Dean stood together with hair just about the same color - heh.

 

Edited to add:

Which makes me realize -- Sam really doesn't know much about cooking.  Okay, he made a grilled cheese that one time but most times Sam give Dean food it's something he buys.  And additional point, if Sam is bringing in the Tex-Mex, then he knows Dean has given up the "clean eating" food approach.

It could be that Sam can't cook - though he seemed fond of the farmer's market, so I'd think he'd rather cook his own healthy food when he could - but I could also maybe see that as Sam wanting to give Dean "comfort food?" One of the first things he wanted to do after de-demonizing Dean besides going to get drunk was get Dean some bad take out food, because apparently Dean requested it or Sam thought that he would want it.

 

I agree with the last part though. Apparently they both concluded that eating healthy was not helping Dean and/or was not something Dean was taking to or enjoying. Maybe Sam realized that taking away one of Dean's comforts that he could have while stuck in the bunker would have been cruel and unusual punishment - so bad food. Though whether Sam let there be extra onions on that Tex Mex is another question.

Edited February 5, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Iguana]

Heh. I remember back on TWoP, in everybody loves a clown, the best comment was that it looked like Sam's hair has a question.

As far as Tina is concerned, she could have played the kidnap victim rescued by mysterious good guys and brought the cops back to the house where there is ample evidence of cells, cannibals and serial killers. A convenient case of traumatic amnesia later and she's in the system as an u nidentified missing child. A court application later and she's got a legitimate I'd and a foster home. She can stick around if she wants or take off for the Winchester and friends if it sucks.

But her just heading out for parts unknown without a safety net was what she decided to go for instead. Please note - she decided to hop on the bus; Sam and Dean didn't choose it for her. Not their call, no blame from me if she gets in trouble. Especially because I don't need them to show the boys giving her all their contact info to know that's what Sam and Dean did.

[supposebly]

 

This is the season of figuring out how to be okay with who you are.  I think Dean is just sorting out who he really is.  So, for example, it's not going to work for him to be on the straight healthy diet*.  It's not him.  It's not going to work for him to never have a drink.  He's going to admit he likes some songs that are not consistent with his past persona (like Taylor Swift).  So he'll take a little of this, a little of that, and learn to be just Dean. Pulling a Dean Winchester -- making sacrifices, saving the day. It's who he is.

 

If that's true and it might just be, I find it peculiarly redundant. I feel I have a very clear idea of who Dean is. Egg whites is not him and being a teetotaler is not him and that he likes cheesy pop songs is not news either.

 

His comment about hairbands was particularly hilarious since he was the one driving into that cemetery in Swan Song with bloody Def Leppard blaring, for me the essence of hair bands. At least it wasn't Europe and The Final Countdown. It really should have been For Those about to Rock. Don't get me wrong, I love them all. I have Dean's taste in music, bad and good. No Taylor Swift though. Ugh.

 

He's never made any excuses for himself and I never had the sense that he doesn't know who he is, so I just don't understand why the writers might think he has to figure this out now. To me, he was always so very much Dean. That doesn't come from a lack of being comfortable with oneself.

 

And if this has anything to do with being comfortable AND having the mark, the writers are failing me. Right now, it feels like they are forcing some sort of addiction parallel with food, alcohol, violence, and sex and I can't figure out why or even how. As if Dean could be reduced to those things. I might be a Sam girl most of the time but this story doesn't feel any more thought-out than whether the demon blood was addictive, not responsible, responsible for Sam's behavior and possession in S4 and S5. And thus isn't doing the character any favors in terms of being consistent.

[catrox14]

I so agree with you about who Dean is, supposeably. You've really nailed exactly what has been niggling at me.  Are they trying to redraw Dean here or have the audience re-learn what we already know and accept about him and what he already knew and accepted about himself.  

 

It feels like it's something that should have happened with demon!Dean. The struggle for who Dean really is. The demon vs the human. But because they blew away demon!Dean already, maybe they couldn't rewrite the entire season arc for Dean so they are retrofitting it to the MoC?  I dunno. It's definitely screwy.

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe they're going to try for Dean actually liking who he is - in other words get rid of some of the self-loathing - but they are confusing the issue with stuff Dean already is comfortable with about himself? ::shrug:;

[supposebly]

 

in other words get rid of some of the self-loathing - but they are confusing the issue with stuff Dean already is comfortable with about himself? ::shrug:;

It feels that way. To me the self-loathing is more about pathologically feeling responsible for everything that goes wrong (with the world, with Sam, which is often the same for Dean) but has nothing to do with the stuff they seem to address, like the sex, the alcohol, the food. Those things, he always seems completely comfortable with.

 

 

The demon vs the human.

That might have been interesting because on the one hand, that is a very broad line and on the other, a very fine one. That also would have required good and subtle writers. And we don't have a lot of those.

Edited February 5, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

 

That might have been interesting because on the one hand, that is a very broad line and on the other, a very fine one. That also would have required good and subtle writers. And we don't have a lot of those.

 

True. I do think a lot of it could have come from Jensen' performance though. A lot more than this meely mouthed whatever schlock they've got going on now.  Bleh.

[SueB]

I believe it IS about removing the self-loathing.  So I guess that yes, he's trying out a few things and coming back to himself.  And Dean always hid his cheesy pop song love from Sam.  So that, at least, was him shaking off (I had to ...I'm sorry ...I had to), some of his inhibitions in a healthy way.

He's not going to wake up and one day say, "screw it, I'm not responsible for half the shit I think I am".  He's literally got to get comfortable with trusting himself in his own skin WITH the Mark. The food/sex/alcohol stuff are the exterior items that had the side benefit of numbing his pain.  But he can also enjoy those things without needing them to numb his pain.  

 

I'm not explaining well.  I just think it's a slow burn to get to the deeper issues. 

 

And speaking of deeper issues.  I took a screen shot and blew up that last complex diagram he was looking at.  It's from the Kabbalah.  World creation, soul importance kinda stuff.  People spend entire lifetimes studying that.  I'd be interested if that was a throw-away prop or relevant later.  

Edited February 5, 2015 by SueB

[supposebly]

 

Dean always hid his cheesy pop song love from Sam.  So that, at least, was him shaking off (I had to ...I'm sorry ...I had to), some of his inhibitions in a healthy way.

I don't know, hiding one's bad taste in music doesn't really strike me as a serious inhibition. For me Dean is someone who doesn't have a lot of inhibitions. At least not serious ones. I don't know, maybe I'm just dense about this whole thing.

 

 

But he can also enjoy those things without needing them to numb his pain.

 

I just don't see that he only used them to numb his pain. He actually doesn't so much. Well maybe the alcohol but he actually seems not to hook up so much when things go bad. Didn't he even say something along those lines to Anna? And he doesn't really go binge-eating when things go bad either. It's really only the alcohol that seems somewhat increased when things go bad. That's why I don't really understand where all the other things come in. They seem very much to be him and not something to question.

[7kstar]

That is ridiculous! I know lots of guys that have the same hair style and I'm somehow miraculously able to tell them apart.  Do they really think the audience, after 10 seasons, is that dumb?  I guess they're lucky that neither of them started going bald.  But I guess we'd be able to tell them apart if one had no hair.

Well Jared's is thinning a lot on top, so at some point it won't be so good for it too be long.  My dad was bald at 26 and my brothers lost theirs during their 30's.  I see the sign's and my older brother is Jensen's height. 

 

But there are other shows that have done this...Numb3rs comes to mind.  I wouldn't have a problem seeing the difference but I do like Jensen's short.  What I've seen during the summer isn't always my fav of him.  LOL.  But look how much we have spent talking about their hair.  So you know it has to add fans...right?  :)

[catrox14]

Maybe Dean just needs to get laid a lot more. Seriously. To me Dean has never used sex or food to bury his pain. That's what alcohol is for. Sex and food are necessary and pleasurable diversions too. He's certainly not a satyr either. I was thinking back to "my bloody valentine" and Dean said that he's not well adjusted just well fed. He drinks when he wants to, eats what he wants and has sex when he wants it. And all of that seemed to give his life some kind of equilibrium that he no longer has after the MoC.

I'm starting to wonder if Deans addiction is actually Sam.

[ItsABear]

I'm starting to wonder if Deans addiction is actually Sam.

 

I don't think there is any question that Dean is addicted to having Sam around.  Look at the history, sacrificing his soul to bring Sam back, using questionable tactics to get Sam to agree to be a vessel for Gadreel, all the stuff he's done over the years to protect Sam.  No question that Dean is addicted to Sam.

[catrox14]

I don't think there is any question that Dean is addicted to having Sam around.  Look at the history, sacrificing his soul to bring Sam back, using questionable tactics to get Sam to agree to be a vessel for Gadreel, all the stuff he's done over the years to protect Sam.  No question that Dean is addicted to Sam.

 

 

 

Sorry, obviously that's true. But I never saw it as an addiction but as Dean's raison' d'etre. Those are different things in my mind even beyond codependency.

[supposebly]

I think a raison d'etre is not something you go to hell for. It always struck as more of an addiction. Not to Sam per se but fulfilling that responsibility that John saddled him with when Mary went up in flames. It ties in with his general feeling of being responsible for everything. "Everything" pretty much sums up Sam but not always.

 

For the parents here, could one characterize the overwhelming need to protect one's children as addiction in a sense? I'm trying to use the term as neutrally as possible. As a need that overwhelms everything, even common sense or the wishes or the well-being of the ones one feels needs protecting.

 

If that is something one could compare it to, then Dean possibly never really left that mind frame. He might have acknowledged that Sam isn't that snot-nosed little brat anymore but for himself, he hasn't quite emancipated himself from that feeling?

[ItsABear]

I think a raison d'etre is not something you go to hell for. It always struck as more of an addiction. Not to Sam per se but fulfilling that responsibility that John saddled him with when Mary went up in flames. It ties in with his general feeling of being responsible for everything. "Everything" pretty much sums up Sam but not always.

 

For the parents here, could one characterize the overwhelming need to protect one's children as addiction in a sense? I'm trying to use the term as neutrally as possible. As a need that overwhelms everything, even common sense or the wishes or the well-being of the ones one feels needs protecting.

 

I love my son with all my heart.  I would do almost anything for him.  But if we lived in the Supernatural universe, if he died I wouldn't sell my soul to bring him back.  Maybe that makes me a bad parent, but I don't think so.  I would never burden him with that kind of guilt.

I do agree it isn't necessarily an addiction to Sam, per se.  It is a result of Dean being such the good son that even though it is 9 years since John died Dean still must carry out his order to protect Sam.  That is the addiction.

Edited February 6, 2015 by ItsABear

[Ferniesfreckles]

Sheldon Cooper wears Underoos!!!!!

[catrox14]

LOL I was struggling to figure out the connection to SPN and then the light bulb went off.  So what you are saying is that Dean and Sheldon could be BFFs?

[rue721]

I love my son with all my heart.  I would do almost anything for him.  But if we lived in the Supernatural universe, if he died I wouldn't sell my soul to bring him back.  Maybe that makes me a bad parent, but I don't think so.  I would never burden him with that kind of guilt.

 

But what if you figured you were going to Hell anyway? Or what if you thought your son was already there?

 

They spent a long time knowing that Hell and demons were real, and at the point when all that soul-selling was going on, they didn't know about heaven or angels -- and Dean specifically didn't believe in angels. So I think Dean figured that going to Hell was a given, and at least this way he could keep Sam out of it (for a while longer). Like, he was going to die and go to Hell soon in any case, at least if he sold his soul for Sam *some* good could come of it.

 

I just don't see that he only used them to numb his pain. He actually doesn't so much.

 

Yeah, imo he's a wallower.

 

As a need that overwhelms everything, even common sense or the wishes or the well-being of the ones one feels needs protecting.

Dean's protectiveness toward Sam is more like some misdirected self-preservation instinct than like an addiction or anything else, imo.

 

He's not going to wake up and one day say, "screw it, I'm not responsible for half the shit I think I am".  He's literally got to get comfortable with trusting himself in his own skin WITH the Mark.

 

How can he trust himself with the Mark? He is *untrustworthy* with the Mark, that's what's shitty about having the Mark, isn't it?

 

Idk, I think the sense of responsibility is a blessing as well as a curse. I mean, he's driven to save people and maybe that's overwhelming sometimes, but the upshot is, he really does save people! Like Tina. He said he was going to save her, when they were locked in the witch's basement, and then he saved her! That's wonderful -- nobody does that.

 

The Mark is compelling him to kill, imo, and something about him personally is compelling him to try and save people. I think that if the Mark wins out, he'll be a demon, and if he (and his sense of responsibility) wins out, he'll be a hero (some more/again/etc etc etc).

[Demented Daisy]

Along with copious SPN merchandise, Hot Topic sells adult-sized Underoos.  So, slight connection there.

[DittyDotDot]

I just re-watched this one--only second time I've had the desire to do that this season.  Adam Glass isn't really all that good at working the mythology into his episodes seamlessly, but it struck me that maybe Hansel wasn't taking barflies and drunks per se, but people who appeared to be becoming their parents. Tina talked about how her father drank away all their money when they were kids and then said she had piles of debt and had been a poor adult also. In the original story, Hansel and Gretal's father drug them out in the woods and left them to die. What if Hansel was taking people who didn't learn the lessons of their parents, so to speak? Granted, I'm betting a lot of it had to do with them not having families so there was no one to notice them going missing, but something I was thinking about anyway.

 

Also amused me greatly that it was set in Pendleton, Oregon.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Alcohol effects people differently. And Dean has been resurrected like 100 times at least. So I think we could fanwank that Dean's body processes alcohol differently than others because of that. Dean's 40 years in Hell did affect him but he couldn't and wouldn't talk about it. He was self medicating with "Hunter's Helper" just like Bobby, and Sam and Ellen and Jo and every other hunter. So far, it seems to have worked for him.

I don't know exactly why but I love the idea that coming back to life repeatedly has changed how Dean metabolizes alcohol. Maybe a piece of his liver is still in purgatory. That's why he gets the shakes, it is calling him from the beyond.

Edited February 9, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[catrox14]

LOL S11 : The Search for Dean's Liver.

[Altered Reality]

LOL S11 : The Search for Dean's Liver.

:Snicker:

 

This would be an epic quest.

[millennium]

Just caught this episode.

 

There wasn't a single moment when I didn't buy that kid as Dean.

 

In all the years I have been watching television and movies, this is the first time I have ever seen a kid convincingly portray a younger version of a well-known adult character.   I didn't miss Jensen Ackles at all because he was right there the whole time.

 

Dean did lose control when he killed the witch.   In his rage he stuffed the hex-bag into her mouth.  It wasn't necessary but he wasn't thinking.  In doing that, he destroyed Tina's chance of returning to her former self.

 

Dean's admission of being a functioning alcoholic was startling, and sad, coming from a childhood version of himself.

 

But overall a fun episode, best since Supernatural the Musical.

[catrox14]

Just caught this episode.

 

There wasn't a single moment when I didn't buy that kid as Dean.

 

In all the years I have been watching television and movies, this is the first time I have ever seen a kid convincingly portray a younger version of a well-known adult character.   I didn't miss Jensen Ackles at all because he was right there the whole time.

 

Dean did lose control when he killed the witch.   In his rage he stuffed the hex-bag into her mouth.  It wasn't necessary but he wasn't thinking.  In doing that, he destroyed Tina's chance of returning to her former self.

 

Dean's admission of being a functioning alcoholic was startling, and sad, coming from a childhood version of himself.

 

But overall a fun episode, best since Supernatural the Musical.

 

He needed to literally silence the witch because she had  enough power with her words to do damage. He had something he could use to stop her from speaking so he used it.

 

Just a clarification,.  Dylan was playing 36 year old Dean in 14 year old Dean's body. Only Dean's meatsuit was deaged but not everything else.And Dylan did a great job playing 36 year old Dean.  He also did a great job playing 16 year old Dean as a 16 year old Dean.  Great find in Dylan Everett.

[millennium]

 

Just a clarification,.  Dylan was playing 36 year old Dean in 14 year old Dean's body. Only Dean's meatsuit was deaged but not everything else.

 

I'm aware, thanks.   It was older Dean who spoke the words "functioning alcoholic," but the words did come from a child's mouth.  The child he used to be, who, like Tina, once had a future full of possibility ahead of him, only to wind up a functioning alcoholic in his mid-30s.   That's why it was sad.

[catrox14]

So I found the BTS stuff of Jensen driving Baby in that final scene...You're Welcome.

 

[catrox14]

Just rewatching this from TNT earlier. This is largely a really good episode. 

I really loved the dynamic between Adult!Tina and Adult!Dean. I thought they were just so easy with each other. Nice work between Jensen and the actress. I'd love to see her comeback because she found some kind of reaging spell from a witch or something. Teen!Tina and Teen!Dean was just as good. Such terrific acting in this whole episode.  But the deaging and the Mark thing...I still do not understand especially

s10 spoilers

Spoiler

especially since we know now that it was a curse. A curse should not have just disappeared because Dean deaged. Sigh :(

[Dobian]

Young Dean was great with the vocal inflection and mannerisms.  I loved it when he walked past Sam into the room without so much as an explanation.  And then lines like this... "There was a Taylor Swift song on the bus that I hopped to the motel, and uh, I liked it Sam. I liked it a lot."  I was laughing pretty much through the whole thing.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Nice spin on the Hansel and Gretel story.  Better job than they did with Oz.  Should have had the witch be young and beautiful though, and eating kids - with their raging hormones - was how she stayed that way.  Otherwise, why did Hansel eat his own sister?
• Young Dean was great.  "It's up, it's down.  It's up again for no reason."  Lol.  And Sam's reactions were great also.
• I thought killing a witch broke her spells though.  Did they change that bit of lore or did I remember something that wasn't even a thing?  So shouldn't Tina have changed back to an adult?
• So this is the second teenager in the space of a couple eps, that the show has sent off by themselves?  At least they gave Tina some cash and put her on a bus.  And I know, she's a 30 year old woman in a 14 year old's body, but that doesn't change the fact that now, she's got no identity and is underage, so can't get a job, can't buy a car, etc, etc, etc.  
• FYI, for those who don't know, haven't seen it, there is a terrific parody video about this season and the MOC mostly - and they use Taylor Swift's Shake it Off.  (Stay tuned for the end.  It's worth it.)

[DittyDotDot]

"...and I have zero control over this; I mean it's up, it's down, it's up for no reason" HA!!

I had to go watch this one twice knowing that it's going to be a while before there's another one that doesn't take itself too seriously. It's silly, but at least it's fun. And, Dylan Everett did his homework and did really good work here. And since this is Adam Glass's last episode, I'll add a fond farewell to him. He wasn't always my favorite writer, but he was always an enthusiastic voice for the show and he certainly brought this one home.

Still though, Taylor Swift? ::shudders:: ;)

[bettername2come]

Can we really blame Sam for believing in the Easter Bunny? I mean, haven't we established that the Tooth Fairy is real on this show? And now literal Hansel and Gretel is true. You know what? Screw it, I'm believing there is an Easter Bunny on this show. And a Santa. And unicorns. I don't care what Sam and Dean think. They've been wrong about a lot of creatures. *end rant*

I love Dylan Everett. He's become my second favorite Dean. So the year before the guy was too unbelievable as a 14-year-old Dean, but now it's fine? Love Sam slamming the bartender's head. Love Dean just eating the cake. I like Tina with the faith in Dean and screaming to cover the sound of him escaping. Jared and Dylan had decent chemistry. I kind of wish we could've gotten a de-aged Sam too. This would've been a nice excuse to get Colin Ford and Dylan Everett in a scene together. I would've bought some bullshit explanation about different rates of de-aging. This is a fun diversion. I don't even mind hearing Taylor Swift on the series. It was a decent joke. 

[Hanahope]

I loved seeing Mrs. Patmore as the Hansel and Gretel Witch, lol.  And interesting twist on the story, and the witch still went into the oven, hah!  Who sometimes doesn't think about how they'd do things differently if they got to be young again?  As much as they talked about Dean staying a kid to get rid of the MoC, I knew it wouldn't happen.  And I thought Dean didn't care for cake?  Was fun seeing Sam react to young Dean, and the young actor did a good job channelling Dean.

Oh hey here's an idea.  If a witch can create a hex bag (or whatever) to revert an adult back to puberty, maybe Dean can go to a friendly (or friendlish) witch (the Buffy witches?) and get a hex bag to take off, oh say a year or two, to remove the MoC.  

Edited September 12, 2017 by Hanahope

[Wayward Son]

On 4 February 2015 at 2:27 PM, supposebly said:

I didn't get the cake thing. What was the joke? I thought something would come of it because it looked so poisonously pink and Dean tends to get in trouble when he eats with or near bad guys

 

I thought it it was a reference to the original tale where the witch fattens them up before eating them. More meat to enjoy and all that. 

 

On 4 February 2015 at 10:32 PM, catrox14 said:

Well, personally, I find comfort in Dean's drinking. He's only been drunk ONCE in the show that I remember and that was First Born....so who knows, maybe they have been setting this up this end game that drinking will turn you into a demon eventually.  I keed....mostly.

He has also been drunk during Party On Garth. Although he had to be drunk for the case and it wasn't anything to do with Deans alcoholism. I'm just pointing it out as another instance where we've seen him drunk :) 

[The Companion]

On 2/3/2015 at 9:39 PM, Pete Martell said:

O

Dylan Everett playing Young Dean, he knocked it out of the park. Here’s a kid who’s played a young version of Dean before, but it was Young Dean, and here and now he was challenged to play Present Dean in a younger body, and to come onto a set and to take on a character that’s been portrayed by another actor for years, and to put in the performance that he did, I as an audience member and as a huge fan of the show and as someone who is highly protective of this character that I have been playing for the past ten years, I was very impressed, and I was very pleased.

 

 

I could not agree more with this. He knocked it out of the park. I had to wonder if JA was hovering and providing feedback or if he just did his homework. Either way, an incredible job.

On 2/4/2015 at 12:46 AM, Pete Martell said:

 

What surprised me here is I think (?) Adam Glass has mentioned having a daughter, so I wouldn't have expected him to write a teenage girl out this way. I guess maybe the show is saying being on your own and being free is safer than conforming (especially if these girls are all supposed to be mirrors to Dean), but it does stretch credulity. I wish they would just drop a line that the girls are with Jody. 

Ha. Poor Jody would end up running some sort of group home for teenage girls who were monster adjacent. You know? I might watch that. 

On 2/4/2015 at 12:54 AM, rue721 said:

You know what's going to be really difficult for Tina now? Dating.

Would you guys be tempted to stay in a 14-year-old body and get a second chance at high school and adulthood? If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably do things better -- but it just sounds so exhausting. Oops, that attitude is probably why I could use a second chance in the first place :P

. . . 

Tina's not really a teenage girl, though, she's an adult woman in a teenaged body. I mean, she still shouldn't be left completely destitute on the street, I'm really happy they drove her to the bus station and gave her what cash they could (in other words, didn't act like cold-hearted assholes). But dealing with Tina isn't at all like dealing with Claire or even Cas, imo. She's not a kid or a naif.

I think that if they tried to take Tina by the hand, it would be condescending (especially since it would be against her wishes). I'm glad that they asked what she wanted from them rather than dictating things for her, and helped her out as much as she would accept.

Eww. Dating would be a nightmare. Either she is dating 14 year olds or sexual predators who say things like "she has an old soul." Then again, perhaps she wants a break from dating altogether. Still, I think "relive life from 14 on" sounds like my own personal hell. The hormones alone. *shudder* 

I agree that she has a lot more agency and maturity than the other teenage girls they have left on the side of the road (speaking of *shudder*) and at least she got a ride to the bus stop and some cash, but she is still not in a great place. She is physically vulnerable and she has no network. I would have liked to have her vocalize some sort of plan. Perhaps she can claim amnesia or ask for help from social services at an age where she wouldn't necessarily have all of her information (did anyone know their social at that age?), but it is going to be pretty terrible trying to get around as a 14 year old, even if she tries to age up a bit. 

 

On 2/4/2015 at 4:26 PM, SueB said:

I thought they did a really good job of conveying that when Hansel was grabbing Dean from behind.  Young Dean keeps pulling on his arm like he should be able to flip him over and...it's not working.  It was a great moment IMO because it brought home, he NEEDS his strength and size to be the renown hunter he is.  

. . . 

I once had a boss who was an Astronaut (no, I'm not kidding).  After the Challenger blew up, his mission was essentially scrubbed forever and so he lost his shot at going into space.  It's something you work for all your life and then ...it's gone.  But his response (on the personal implications after we all recovered from the horror of the Challenger loss) was healthy. "We're all fugitives from the laws of probability" he said (I think he made that up, not quoting anyone).  And he was right. In that business, that shit is gonna happen. This guy had a way of taking things in stride, usually with some humor and shaking his head and moving on.  I don't expect Dean to start playing "Shake it Off" every time shit goes bad. (Please, it was cute once, don't make it a signature piece please).  But gaining perspective ('some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you') and not feeling like a failure when stuff goes bad would be a good approach.  Talking about his issues (alcoholism, guilt, whatever is on his mind) without going into denial is a good start IMO.  

That is a great detail that I missed. Also, I love "We're all fugitives from the laws of probability."

On 2/4/2015 at 7:16 PM, catrox14 said:

 

Here's my question. If he stopped drinking altogether as 14 year old Dean would he go through withdrawal? Or because he has a new liver theoretically would that not happen?

My understanding is that they were transported into their bodies at that age, so no physical withdrawal symptoms, just psychological factors that may drive someone to drink. I actually will say that this is probably Tina's best shot at rehab up for that reason. She isn't fighting the physical need and she doesn't have easy access.

On 2/5/2015 at 11:24 AM, catrox14 said:

LOL. Oh it's totally impractical being this long, but there is a real life reason and that is the network won't let Jensen grow his hair too long and they won't let Jared cut his.   I just hope they give it some control.

 

This reminds me of all the shows that have first responders with their hair down. There was a show about medics a few years ago and the female characters all had long, flowing locks. All I could think about was how impractical that would be. 

On 2/5/2015 at 11:41 AM, catrox14 said:

That's exactly the reason. Seriously. They want the audience to discern between Sam and Dean and apparently it's the hair that makes the difference...versus you know the 4 inches of height difference and that they don't really look like brothers at all. 

Ha! Look, I have face blindness and often cannot identify people out of context. I also have a real problem confusing people who are similarly built with similar hairstyles. There were two guys in my office with the same hair who I recognize had totally dissimilar faces but who I constantly mixed up in my head. Nonetheless, there is no way that even I, faceblind as I am, would have trouble telling them apart. Also, from what I have seen of the audience, there is no chance of confusion between the two. 😂

Speaking of faceblind, youngTina was played by the actress who played Fray in The Magicians. I thought she was familiar but had to look it up and then look at pictures of her in costume and still couldn't quite get the two to mesh in my head because of the wildly different contexts, but I thought she was fantastic in this role. 

On 2/5/2015 at 1:13 PM, SueB said:

If you are not interested in Tina's dilemma, feel free to move along, I'm ruminating on it a bit...

I noticed my mom-instincts didn't kick in for Tina because I just don't consider her a teen. I consider her an adult in a teen body.  Now she's got logistical issues to be sure.  First, she's essentially disappearing.  I'm going to go with Bartender may even report her missing because he seemed to like her.  So, they find her clothes, like the other missing barfly and later she's presumed dead.  Her SSN is no good. Which is fine, because she's running away from her $50,000 in debt.  She wants to dump the old life.

So that leaves her essentially in the status of illegal alien -- no id, no birth certificate, no SSN.  These days the Social Security Administration goes to the county officials for where you were born to get the birth certificate.  Tina doesn't strike me as the kind with connections to a criminal element and this would not be a good start.  So, she's going to live off the grid OR she's going to get help.  Maybe she calls the Winchesters (they didn't say "call" but they often do...so I'm going to go with they gave her their number). IF they get her hooked up with false ID (see Charlie via e-mail), then this woman can just about do anything.  She can work at any minimum wage job (just make the ID say she's 16).  Get a GRE. Go to Community College.  Whatever.  The key is the papers.  Without a fake ID, she's forever working minimum wage jobs for cash only.  So...I've decided in my headcanon, that they gave her THEIR number and an e-mail for Charlie.  And Charlie will hook her up.  She can work it from Italy because she's that good.  Boom.  Tina's okay.  

Claire, however, is still living homeless waif life. 

Poor Claire. I think this is reasonable headcannon, though it seems like a lot of work. Honestly, this is my problem with pretty much any time travel story as well. Person from the past comes to the future and stays because loooove. Yeah, that's all well and good but showing up with 0 credit history and no SSN is gonna be a problem. Being a minor, you have the extra layer of CPS.

On 2/11/2015 at 7:54 AM, catrox14 said:

 

He needed to literally silence the witch because she had  enough power with her words to do damage. He had something he could use to stop her from speaking so he used it.

Ohhhhhh. Thanks for that. I was so confused as to why he would burn the hex bag. All I could think was: shouldn't you hold on to that?

On 9/2/2017 at 11:31 PM, bettername2come said:

Can we really blame Sam for believing in the Easter Bunny? I mean, haven't we established that the Tooth Fairy is real on this show? And now literal Hansel and Gretel is true. You know what? Screw it, I'm believing there is an Easter Bunny on this show. And a Santa. And unicorns. I don't care what Sam and Dean think. They've been wrong about a lot of creatures. *end rant*

 

I am all in on this idea. 

Just not aliens, right? 😆

On 11/12/2017 at 6:29 PM, Wayward Son said:

 

I thought it it was a reference to the original tale where the witch fattens them up before eating them. More meat to enjoy and all that. 

 

This was my reading as well. Good luck fattening up Dean, Hansel and Witch.

 

[Katy M]

23 hours ago, The Companion said:

This reminds me of all the shows that have first responders with their hair down. There was a show about medics a few years ago and the female characters all had long, flowing locks. All I could think about was how impractical that would be. 

That and all the shows with waitresses with their hair all the way down.  So not going to happen in real life.

 

23 hours ago, The Companion said:

Person from the past comes to the future and stays because loooove. Yeah, that's all well and good but showing up with 0 credit history and no SSN is gonna be a problem. Being a minor, you have the extra layer of CPS.

I'm thinking Tina's probably been arrested at some point and her prints are on file.  That will be an added element of "what????"  I mean if she were to go to the cops or a hospital and say she has amnesia, one of the first things they would do would be to run her prints in case her parents had her fingerprinted.  Maybe they might think that there are finally enough people in the world that fingerprints are no longer unique?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm thinking Tina's probably been arrested at some point and her prints are on file. 

Can they identify a child from their adult fingerprints? Or vice versa?

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

That will be an added element of "what????" 

Probably not as much as buying that this child is the same person only 20-ish(?) years younger.