S03.E11: Midnight City

[Chaser]

I think its one of those cases where they worked backwards from a scene. They wanted this to happened. They wanted a big emotional moment for Laurel and her Dad. So they just tossed any and all established logic out the window to accomadate the scene. And what they got for it was Laurel actively maniplulating her father. Quetin being made the fool. And Felicity acting OOC to not even question the actions.

[apinknightmare]

I actually think there's more to it than pity. 

 

They had her take it that far for a reason. Because Laurel's a dumbass and didn't think of the fact that her father knew Sara was Canary and might wonder why she wasn't getting in touch with him once people began seeing her on the street, it establishes how far she's willing to go to keep up the ruse. Which will go a long way toward establishing Quentin's reaction once he does find out. Is the fact that she went so far to keep it from him going to make him a) angry, b) dead or c) instantly forgiving because she was willing to go so far and OMG POOR LAUREL!

 

Getting her into that bind also

gives her a reason to call Nyssa for help out of it (which, why Nyssa would be able to help I have no idea unless Nyssa shoves Sara in the Lazarus Pit and Sara legit comes back in Canaries not as a hallucination but as a batshit resurrected person only to die again at the end of the episode or something), which establishes a relationship with Nyssa, which will allow Nyssa to train Laurel for whatever idiotic reason she'd have for doing it. 

 

I left that last part under the spoiler cut even though it's not a spoiler since the lead up to it is. Easier/safer that way.

Edited January 31, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

That makes sense. Or if would but  ....

 

MG said on tumblr that he was surprised people were unhappy that Laurel hadn't told her father yet.  So it seems like it's a "poor Laurel, she loves her father so much" thing and not "what a dumbass".

[apinknightmare]

That makes sense. Or if would but  ....

 

MG said on tumblr that he was surprised people were unhappy that Laurel hadn't told her father yet.  So it seems like it's a "poor Laurel, she loves her father so much" thing and not "what a dumbass".

 

I thought he said he was surprised that people were so upset that she impersonated Sara?

[kismet]

I think its one of those cases where they worked backwards from a scene. They wanted this to happened. They wanted a big emotional moment for Laurel and her Dad. So they just tossed any and all established logic out the window to accomadate the scene. And what they got for it was Laurel actively maniplulating her father. Quetin being made the fool. And Felicity acting OOC to not even question the actions.

You're totally right. That's what they did. That's like what they did with the dinner scene & the lunge. We need to get to this point, so boom here it is. No thoughts of the consequences or fall out. The lunge was a perfect tv moment. Shocked the audience, made people talking. As a tv viewer, I enjoyed TPTB going there for jaw-drop factor. But then in the aftermath, they had no idea what to do with the choice they had made. For a half season, they really had no idea what to do with S&O together, but not together. But they were able to milk it for the dinner scene. Its about the only good aftershock of the lunge, was that it got O to finally lose it & tell L what had been long time coming for her. So boom 2 major moments done. The problem with working backwards from a scene is that you also have to know how you're gonna work forward from a scene. I got why L wanted to keep it a secret at first, it made sense in a grief stricken mode where logic is generally displaced. But its gone on too long. All the sympathy I felt towards L being in that horrible situation has dried up. In my job, I have to deal with death & dying, it is probably the worst part of my job at least emotionally. I have personally had to be present when loved ones are told that their loved ones are dead. I have been present when loved ones have to watch their loved ones actively dying. It is emotionally draining place & truly there are generally no good way to say it and no easy way to talk about it. So trust me, I got L in the few episodes after Sara. But once her mother came, that should have been when they told him. She could have used the excuse of I was just so hurt, I didn't know what to do or how to do it. Now that you're here we can do it together. It would have been an all out cry fest, but the actors could have done the scene justice and it would have been a beautiful end to the character. There was no need to perpetrate the injustice of her death anymore. The writers brought on solely as a plot chesspiece, couldn't they at least given her the courtesy of an honorable departure? But no, they had written themselves into a corner with her death, because once you fail to address something as tragic/final as death, the elephant in the room just grew exponentially larger. With each passing episode, it becomes harder to explain why L is keeping the secret, without making her seem like a heartless B**h, which is exactly what they were trying to avoid this season. Maybe its in KC's contract I will not be the b***h of the season again & I will be BC. So in their wisdom & lack of reality, they just decided to throw the whole TA & Quentin under the character bus. I know the writers like their lies & deception but there are so many other juicier ones they could come up with that somehow don't completely wreck every character on the show. And to be honest, him not being in on the whole Sara is dead thing isn't even a good plot device. There is no reason for it plot or character wise. So it sucks for the characters & the plot, again why do it? That twitter campaign to #tellquentin needs to happen like awhile ago, but Ill take now.

 

Here's a concept for an emotional scene for the writers - How about they just have her tell him the truth. No convoluted contrived reveal of Sara's death to Quentin. I really don't want someone else telling him. It either has to be her or Sara. And the only way I see it being Sara, is if he leaves the show too & frankly don't want that. But just an honest heart to heart sitdown. Its gonna be hard, but its also gonna make your job a little easier because you wont have to keep twisting things to make them work in a scene.

[statsgirl]

True.

 

 

queenollies asked:
What is one scene/storyline that fans reacted to negatively to, that really took you by surprise?

Honestly, I’m a little surprised that people are so incensed about Laurel faking being Canary in front of Lance.  Underestimated that reaction for sure.

But I think that stems from not realizing that fans were already upset that she hadn't told Lance.

 

If you're feeling she's right for not telling him, it's not such a big step to appearing as Sara in front of him.  But if you're already thinking what she's doing is wrong, then showing up like that is going to get you incensed.

[apinknightmare]

But I think that stems from not realizing that fans were already upset that she hadn't told Lance.

 

If you're feeling she's right for not telling him, it's not such a big step to appearing as Sara in front of him.  But if you're already thinking what she's doing is wrong, then showing up like that is going to get you incensed.

 

Point. I still think they had her do it for actual future plot reasons though, not just for pity. 

[kismet]

Perhaps they need to bring an outside voice or review panel to some of their concept/thought boards. A little focus group to see how viewers watch the show & digest the stories. I hope that they use some of their social media interaction as a barometer to fix mistakes or try not to make them in the future. I get they live in a bubble and they know more than the avg viewer since they are behind the stories & arcs. But really it is surprising how much they underestimated the long term effects & viewer response to some of their decisions. It was a very tone-deaf first part of the season. Laurel's lies & Ray's stalkerish/lack of boundaries were just 2 of the major miscalculations this year.

[quarks]

The CW uses focus groups frequently.   And as David Ramsey said, far from being in a bubble, the showrunners do keep social media interaction in mind. It doesn't always lead to plot lines all fans want to see, of course :)

 

Regarding Guggenheim's quote, he very specifically says "underestimated." So he knew there would be a negative reaction - deceiving Quentin has been one of the most widely criticized plots this season.  He just didn't realize how negative it would be. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by quarks

[kismet]

The CW uses focus groups frequently.   And as David Ramsey said, far from being in a bubble, the showrunners do keep social media interaction in mind. It doesn't always lead to plot lines all fans want to see, of course :)

 

Regarding Guggenheim's quote, he very specifically says "underestimated." So he knew there would be a negative reaction - deceiving Quentin has been one of the most widely criticized plots this season.  He just didn't realize how negative it would be. 

Thanks for the info!  Those focus groups must be fun. They must be hard to do without spoiling anything. Sure they change some stuff, but sometimes its the little things that make a difference in perception. For example, the lying to Thea I think is ridiculous at this point, but it doesn't bother me that deeply. Whereas the lying to Quentin just seems horrendous & morally wrong. Deception & perception are funny like that I guess. So a general focus group about lying to close family & friends would have never predicted that difference in why 1 bothers me so deeply and the other one Im like its part of the story, even if I don't agree with either lies.

 

Of course, we're all not gonna get the plots we want. That is part of the excitement. I just hope they can try to avoid insensitive & poorly written plots like the Quentin one that don't do their characters any justice and can be insulting to their audiences.

[quarks]

Well, I think part of it is that it's one thing to lie to your family. It's another thing entirely to pretend to be a dead person, especially to your family. And it's a third thing to expect us to believe, even on this show where people casually borrow helicopters from their bosses so they can go vigilanting, that Quentin wouldn't notice. I'm halfway expecting Hercule Poirot to show up and say, "But did you not notice, monsieur, that the second lady had a totally different chin? And height? You do not deserve to call yourself a detective!"

Edited February 1, 2015 by quarks

[Chaser]

I totally read that as Poirot LOL

[foreverevolving]

difference is that Thea is more than well aware that Malcolm is a lying liar that lie. she takes everything he says with a grain of salt, and when the truth comes out i expect her to gloriously turn her back on him.

Quentin on the other hand.. has no idea he is being lied to. this is not something that he expects from his daughter (if only he knew)

 

So that's the huge difference right there.

[Password]

Hey!! Don't get me excited for Thea's storyline. I'm already bitterly disappointed in it *grumbles*

[Sake614]

This show has gone so far off the rails that it is laughable and Katie Cassidy's acting has actually deteriorated since the beginning of the season. But, the EPs seem determined to blow up the entire show so KC can be the star so that is all that matters.

 

I just started watching last week. Binge-watched the first two seasons on Netflix and then caught up on WB.com this week. I really liked Laurel in S1, but the minute she became an ADA, and got all glammed-up, I lost interest. And the idea that all it takes to be the Canary is throwing on her sister's costume is sheer stupidity. Which pretty much sums up Laurel these days.

 

And I can't believe everyone is letting Quentin believe Sara is still alive. I missed episodes 2-6 this season because they're not online and I don't want to pay to watch, but why would they do this? Does Oliver know?

[lion10]

I love this show so much.  Is the general consensus that Maseo's and Tatsu's son is dead?

[KirkB]

I love this show so much.  Is the general consensus that Maseo's and Tatsu's son is dead?

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else but until this last episode I was thinking Tatsu was dead. Now, yes, I'm pretty the son is.

[dtissagirl]

Finally watched the episode.

Knowing every single detail helped me to just feel apathy for the shitty stuff. And boy, there was A LOT of bad. I just don't have anything new to add that wasn't mentioned before.

But I was surprised by how much I'm loving Tatsu and Maseo's story. It's heartbreaking, and yeah, I'm thinking their kid died, and I really really wish this show would find some OTHER motivator for character development for once in their lives, but now I'm rooting for these two crazy kids to mend their fences. Or, you know. Don't get dead for plot.

Also, put me on the camp of excusing Quentin for not recognizing Laurel. She was two stories up in the dark, with bad back light, and speaking with Sara's voice for all of a minute. I'm sure Lance realizes something is hinky, but I'm also pretty sure his first [or twentieth] guess isn't gonna be "my youngest is dead and my eldest is impersonating her to fool me".

Also also, color me surprised, but this is the first time in history I didn't think Brandon Routh was gonna come out of the tv and kill me dead with his psycho killer eyes. Someone definitely told him to tone down the ~intensity he was putting on Palmer before. Now it's just the writing for the character that needs to be the opposite of it is right now. But yay, progress!

Edited February 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I think the best things about this episode were the Maseo/Tatsu/Oliver scenes, and coming from someone who generally doesn't like the flashbacks, that's saying a lot.  Or maybe it's saying little about what's going on in Starling City.

 

I re-watched the Ray/Felicity "I realized I want to save you" scene.  Ray is still selling it as kind of romantic, which is okay but too soon, but Felicity is more downplayed so you can read into it romantic or stunned as you want.

 

And I can't believe everyone is letting Quentin believe Sara is still alive. I missed episodes 2-6 this season because they're not online and I don't want to pay to watch, but why would they do this? Does Oliver know?

It was never really brought up except I think once when Oliver told Laurel to tell her father and she said no.  I think SA said in an interview that while Oliver feels that Quentin should be told, it's Laurel's decision.  (Huh???  This isn't like she overate one night and then stuck her fingers down her throat so she may or may not be bulemic. ).  It's never come up before in terms of the rest of the characters other than Dinah guessing two episodes ago.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I saw Palmer giving out romantic vibes, but I didn't really see Felicity reciprocating. The smile she gave him was minute when he said he wanted to protect her. Before that she was pretty oblivious to everything.

However, because I've watched television before, I know that the setting, the music, and the editing were telling me ALERT ALERT ROMANTIC SCENE ALERT. Which is when my brain went NOPE. Their last shot, with both of them in frame, staring at each other a little longer than necessary? Super uncomfortable.

[statsgirl]

I think the EPs really want to sell it as romantic, hence AK saying that Felicity has two guys she can choose from. 

 

Will it work?  For me, only if it's unreciprocated on Felicity's part.  I'm fine with Palmer having a case of unrequited feelings for her because she's just that remarkable.

Edited February 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[chaos is welcome]

I mistakenly yt'd a couple of the scenes from this episode (the intro, the phonecall, the last 4 minutes).  I'm nauseous.  On what planet did they think this was a good idea?  Laurel's logic is absolutely mind numbing to me. 

I will say that Felicity looked a little nauseous during that phone call too, but it doesn't excuse they had her think it was necessary. 

Its going to be a long time before I can watch this show again.

[apinknightmare]

I mistakenly yt'd a couple of the scenes from this episode (the intro, the phonecall, the last 4 minutes).  I'm nauseous.  On what planet did they think this was a good idea?  Laurel's logic is absolutely mind numbing to me. 

I will say that Felicity looked a little nauseous during that phone call too, but it doesn't excuse they had her think it was necessary. 

Its going to be a long time before I can watch this show again.

 

They never actually showed her thinking it was necessary - we don't know why she did it. They conveniently left the conversation out of the episode where they came to the conclusion that they needed Laurel to pretend to be Sara. For all we know Laurel convinced Felicity to do it because she thinks Quentin will die if he finds out Sara's dead and the matter got pretty pressing once he saw footage of "Sara" running around in the streets. If he was bad about asking after her before seeing her, he would've been incessant after. Yeah Felicity was gung-ho about telling Oliver the truth about Thea, but the worst case scenario that would've resulted in was a fractured relationship. Could Felicity deal with lying to Lance if Laurel had her scared that the alternative was Quentin dying? I wouldn't want that on my conscience. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

My headcanon: Laurel threatened Felicity with jail time if she didn't help. Felicity tried to throw logic back at her, but Laurel was protected by MG.

[dtissagirl]

Pretty sure Felicity asking Quentin "how's your heart?" was their way of explaining why Felicity is doing this. It's really really telling how the entire thing is framed as devastating for Laurel, that this is a sacrifice for her, that she's doing an awful thing for the right reason.

And that's where they lose me. And I have trouble even trying to understand why Felicity helped. @Orion posted somewhere else that there's a limit to our suspension of disbelief, and this is mine too. Actually, everything about Laurel ends up pushing far [FAR] past mine.

[Password]

I don't often agree with John Campea, but I think what he said succinctly states how I feel about Felicity being in on it.

"This was the first time in the series I felt disrespected as an audience member."

[jaytee1812]

I don't often agree with John Campea, but I think what he said succinctly states how I feel about Felicity being in on it.

"This was the first time in the series I felt disrespected as an audience member."

Now he knows what watching his show feels like.

I get the Laurel 'hate' over the Quentin thing. It's such a monumentally stupid thing to do, but I actually get Laurel's frame of mind. I mean it's insane but if you've just lost someone, doing something so you don't lose someone else is understandable, even if it's monumentally stupid.

But where the writing loses me a bit is everyone going along with it, especially her mother. Surely someone should be saying "laurel, are you stupid, this is a monumentally bad idea, and you're risking losing your father by doing this."*

*he'll either keel over or never talk to her again.

[catrox14]

 

I get the Laurel 'hate' over the Quentin thing. It's such a monumentally stupid thing to do, but I actually get Laurel's frame of mind. I mean it's insane but if you've just lost someone, doing something so you don't lose someone else is understandable, even if it's monumentally stupid.

 

It's not just stupid, it's utterly selfish.  Quentin has every right to know that his baby girl is fucking dead and has been dead for a few weeks and that his other daughter has the responsiblity to tell him. 

 

Not to get all personal but I had to tell my mother who had a stroke recently that her brother had died after she had the stroke. It's horrible and I was so scared it would make her stroke out again. I told her that I really struggled with whether to tell her or not and she said yes she absolutely needed to know.  I can only imagine that the need to know for a parent is even greater.  So nope, from the get go Laurel was full of shit for not telling Quentin. And she is making everyone else that feels sorry for her complicit.  I really doubt that someone as intelligent and compassionate as Felicity, who also likes and respects Quentin, would have gone along with Laurel's lies. It's just propping Laurel at the expense of Felicity's characterization.

Edited February 1, 2015 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

Yes.  I can see why Laurel is doing it if she thinks it will kill Quentin, but everyone else enabling her is ridiculously stupid on their parts.  There's no way he's not going to find out eventually.

 

Conventional wisdom is that Laurel is handling Oliver's death very well. I disagree -- her failure still to come clean to Quentin shows she's still in shock over Sara's death, and putting the suit on and going out to fight with Oliver gone is more massive denial than handling it well.

 

I wish the show would address this. It would make Laurel a more sympathetic character than beating up people.

[BkWurm1]

Missing scene to explain why Laurel was allowed to call Quentin.  Not really excusing anyone, but I imagine it could have very easily gone down something like this.  (A 490 word ficlet)   

 

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3273173

Edited February 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Brava!  Well done!

 

I could live with it if it had happened that way. Well, maybe.

[areca]

This episode just solidified the theory that they had to ship Oliver off just to make Laurel and Ray happen and that is just such poor writing I don't even know where to begin.

I'd be ok with Oliver being gone for 5 more episodes or even until next season if there was no chance of Lauriver as a result of said absence. I *LOATHE* the Laurel character.

[BkWurm1]

Brava!  Well done!

 

I could live with it if it had happened that way. Well, maybe.

Lol, I pretty much didn't bother trying to pick apart and understand Laurel's reasons because they don't stand up to scrutiny but I needed to understand how Felicity got dragged into it. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[foreverevolving]

Missing scene to explain why Laurel was allowed to call Quentin. Not really excusing anyone, but I imagine it could have very easily gone down something like this. (A 490 word ficlet)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3273173

I realy enjoyed it! I kind of felt bad for Laurel... but not a whole lot.

And here I have your post episode, Felicity feelings over everything, right here:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3252098

(shameless. shameless piclet plug :-P)

Edited February 2, 2015 by foreverevolving

[BkWurm1]

I realy enjoyed it! I kind of felt bad for Laurel... but not a whole lot.

And here I have your post episode, Felicity feelings over everything, right here:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3252098

(shameless. shameless piclet plug :-P)

Well, I forgive you Felicity.  ;)

[statsgirl]

And here I have your post episode, Felicity feelings over everything, right here:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3252098

(shameless. shameless piclet plug :-P)

 

Poor Felicity. First grief for Oliver, now all that guilt over Quentin....

[BkWurm1]

There's something I've meant to mention since I first watched this episode.  Anyone else notice that we never saw Felicity's ponytail?  It feels somehow symbolic that in an episode where she thinks the whole time that Oliver is dead, that part of her is missing.  How far back to we have to go to an episode that lacked that trademark Felicity-ism?

[statsgirl]

Felicity's hair is often out of its ponytail when she's around Ray.  Oliver-hair is a ponytail, Ray-hair is down and flowing. I think they started it in ep 3x02 when she went to accept the job at QC.

 

But I think when Diggle went to talk to her about Oliver in 3x07, it was in a ponytail.

Edited February 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

Felicity's hair is often out of its ponytail when she's around Ray.  Oliver-hair is a ponytail, Ray-hair is down and flowing. I think they started it in ep 3x02 when she went to accept the job at QC.

 

But I think when Diggle went to talk to her about Oliver in 3x07, it was in a ponytail.

Yeah, I've notice that too which is why her having it down the whole time and also in the Arrow Cave made me sad. 

[Ariah]

Once again, we're probably giving the writers too much credit and Felicity's hairstyle is just coincidence - just like the colors she's wearing.

[LisaM]

I like the idea that others have to step up since Oliver is gone. However, having inexperienced Laurel in the field while super trained Diggle sits in the Batcave is beyond stupid. Just blows the whole storyline to hell.

I did like the twist with the DJ working for Ra.

[jay741982]

There's something I've meant to mention since I first watched this episode.  Anyone else notice that we never saw Felicity's ponytail?  It feels somehow symbolic that in an episode where she thinks the whole time that Oliver is dead, that part of her is missing.  How far back to we have to go to an episode that lacked that trademark Felicity-ism?

Early season 2 her hair was down a lot in the first few episodes.

Once again, we're probably giving the writers too much credit and Felicity's hairstyle is just coincidence - just like the colors she's wearing.

Didn't MG point out how Felicity is wearing red in the upcoming wedding Episode? I think they are playing to it now lol

[Password]

The fans have given them an idea? Or were they being coy about the blue/red thing. Could be either tbh.

[romantic idiot]

Early season 2 her hair was down a lot in the first few episodes.

Didn't MG point out how Felicity is wearing red in the upcoming wedding Episode? I think they are playing to it now lol

 

I believe what he said was "I know how you guys like red" or words to that effect. 

[jay741982]

I believe what he said was "I know how you guys like red" or words to that effect.

Yep that's what he said! I'm hoping that was a clue that some Olicity might happen in that Ep

The fans have given them an idea? Or were they being coy about the blue/red thing. Could be either tbh.

Oh yes it's either one of those things

[Pyramid]

So finally watched this episode. Thought I'd lowered my expectations far enough, but apparently not. What a fucking mess. I'm sure everything has already been said so I'll just dwell on the omnishambles that is Laurel.

I think the writers must hate her. They just constantly make her look so stupid.

She really thinks that she can just start beating up bad guys with minimal training. Her job allows her to make an actual difference but oh no, she has to be her sister, whatever the fuck that means. Now I can just ignore her and let her get on with it because she's obviously just a bit stupid, but what I can't ignore is Felicity, Dig and Roy not tying her to a seat and telling her to grow the fuck up.

Not only does Felicity tell her to get back in the fight, but she's just done telling Ray she won't be party to his suicide. And Dig, there is know way the Dig we've been shown in the first two seasons would be party to this idiocy. And then the writers compound it by not only having Dig stay behind on one mission, then basically be the valet in the second, but they actually have Laurel be the first one through the door.

And getting Felicity to do the voice modulation bollocks, having her being party to one of the cruelest things on the show, that's not who Felicity is ... the writers just seem determined to rip the whole show down so they can raise up the alter of Laurel. I'm this close to being done.

And don't get me started on her frowny serious face, give me strength. Take that out of her repertoire and what does she have left? Not a rhetorical question, and I have an answer, her robot walk, that's what.

Gah.

[statsgirl]

I can't figure out if the writers hate Laurel or just love her so much that everything she does is golden.  When she does something, it's because she's got a good reason. Even when it's stupid, it's because she's trying and she's got a big heart.

 

 

Once again, we're probably giving the writers too much credit and Felicity's hairstyle is just coincidence - just like the colors she's wearing.

 

 

Early season 2 her hair was down a lot in the first few episodes.

Her hair was down in the first couple of episode in season 2 and then EBR fought for "the Felicity look" of glasses and ponytail.  This season, her hair has been down a lot around Ray and her clothes are somewhat different. I think EBR deserves credit for keeping the various versions of Felicity consistent.

[jay741982]

I can't figure out if the writers hate Laurel or just love her so much that everything she does is golden.  When she does something, it's because she's got a good reason. Even when it's stupid, it's because she's trying and she's got a big heart.

 

 

 

 

Her hair was down in the first couple of episode in season 2 and then EBR fought for "the Felicity look" of glasses and ponytail.  This season, her hair has been down a lot around Ray and her clothes are somewhat different. I think EBR deserves credit for keeping the various versions of Felicity consistent.

I remember reading that she fought to keep Felicitys signature look cause the suits were wanting to her look more "Sexy" . She does deserve credit for keeping the versions consistent. I remember that it's been said the glasses and Ponytail are her "Costume" so to speak

[ElectricBoogaloo]

John Barrowman's take on Midnight City:

http://youtu.be/expIqlGl9AU

[millennium]

I like Brick as a villain.   He's the most memorable since Slade Wilson.   Another powerful presence on the screen.

 

I'm a little confused about Roy ... does he or doesn't he have super-strength because of the Mirakuru?   Or did that go away altogether?