S03.E01: EST Men

[Chaos Theory]

I know! Masters of disguise indeed. Sometimes I really do have to suspend my disbelief. Then I think, yes, people notice things without consciously putting 2 and 2 together. Sometimes you can hide a lie in plain sight. The kids have grown up with mom and dad doing what most of us would think of as highly odd and mysterious behaviors, yet it took a lot for Paige to overcome her "conditioning" and begin to question what the heck is really going on. She grew up with it so it seems more or less normal to her. Stan indeed thinks of Phillip as his friend the travel agent, a close friend in fact, and Elizabeth is Phillip's nice wife, so it's easier for him to just accept her story when he's focused on his own life (EST, Sandra, Nina, and all that).

Plus it's the 80s and Stan "might" have had a passing notion that Phillip beat his wife but nowhere near what he would have today. Worse case scenario (and in this case it is pretty bad) he'd keep an better eye on his friend Philip and maybe give him "a talking to" If it happens too often but honestly Stan has his own problems and Philip and Eliabeth probably have the really good.makeup and have got really good at just hiding the pain.

[RazzleberryPie]

I thought Elizabeth throwing Paige into the pool was foreshadowing to throwing Paige into the KGB.  It's her parenting style.  Philip is thinking of all of the problems with it, and of Paige's safety.  Elizabeth seems secretly thrilled, and has more of a "Well, she'll swim, let's DO this!" attitude.

I think she threw her in the pool, because she was disgusted at how weak Paige was, but wavering about getting in so she nipped that in the bud and tossed her in.  Sink or swim, but don't dither. It's weak and pampered to be too scared to decide to ease into a heated indoor pool, so she tossed her.

[Umbelina]

I don't think the bruises had really set in yet on her face, or she'd already covered them up a bit.

 

However, two highly trained observers, FBI agents no less, saw her face up close, dark or not.  If this sketch isn't pretty close I'll be bummed.  Regular people aren't trained to notice the unchangeable things, and might focus on hair or a nose ring or tattoo, or clunky glasses, but spies should be able to notice eye shape, nose length and width, chin, etc.  That disguise wasn't THAT good.  (no fake nose, or eyes hidden by huge glasses, birthmarks, etc.)

[scrb]

I thought Elizabeth throwing Paige into the pool was foreshadowing to throwing Paige into the KGB.  It's her parenting style.  Philip is thinking of all of the problems with it, and of Paige's safety.  Elizabeth seems secretly thrilled, and has more of a "Well, she'll swim, let's DO this!" attitude.

 

Not sure, she's trying to work Paige into it by having her go to a liberal church, support the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and then spring the whole Soviet loyalty on her,

 

Maybe it's more that she's willing to make Paige do something against her will because she deemed that it's good for her.

[rozen]

I don't think the bruises had really set in yet on her face, or she'd already covered them up a bit.

 

However, two highly trained observers, FBI agents no less, saw her face up close, dark or not.  If this sketch isn't pretty close I'll be bummed.  Regular people aren't trained to notice the unchangeable things, and might focus on hair or a nose ring or tattoo, or clunky glasses, but spies should be able to notice eye shape, nose length and width, chin, etc.  That disguise wasn't THAT good.  (no fake nose, or eyes hidden by huge glasses, birthmarks, etc.)

 

Yes, but Elizabeth gave them both pretty significant facial injuries right away. Gaad had the best look at her, and I'm pretty sure his eyes were still refocusing from getting lit up the first time. Then she pistol whipped him, can't be great for recall. Elizabeth had her hair down and covering her face when Stan and Philip got back, so all that was obvious was the shoulder. Stan will put it all together, eventually. Even subconsciously, he was identifying Martha's file stealing habits. He just needs to get over his woe is me act and get to work. 

 

I really don't understand why Elizabeth is so gungho about grooming Paige. Is she in denial about all the horrible things that have happened to her when she was training to be an agent? It's not like being a file girl will preclude Paige from having to honeypot. Lucia was using her body regularly to get information. That she happened to like her target was irrelevant, she would have had to follow orders regardless. That and I agree with Philip that turning Paige into a spy would break her. The girl is weak, fragile...American. She doesn't have the stuff, and never will, no matter how much Elizabeth wishes she could flip a hidden communist button.

 

I did love Elizabeth throwing her into the pool. I think she and Cookie Lyons would have gotten along swimmingly. 

 

Welp, Annalise was kind of screwed either way.  The fact that the guy pulled a total 180 and killed her with no hesitation did not bode well for her survival. He reminded me of Philip, actually, what he could be at his worst. I think he will be very difficult to handle and may be part of the undoing of Philip and Elizabeth.

 

Gabriel was playing Elizabeth like a fiddle. And Philip sees through all of it. I could absolutely see him being an orphan, just because of his ability to self-sustain, instead of seeking outside affirmation. Elizabeth eagerly laps up Gabriel's attention as a surrogate parental figure. Show up, bake lasagna, pretend to care about her doubts, then seal the deal with secret momma tapes. Yea, he's dangerous, I bet they will miss the bluntness of granny before this is all over.

 

I think the woman at the beginning was genuinely betraying her country, then changed her mind. And she's such an emotional wreck that I bet there were several eyes keeping tabs on her that she didn't even know about. She was absolutely oozing bitterness, even Stan would have noticed that!

Edited January 31, 2015 by rozen

[sistermagpie]

It's not like being a file girl will preclude Paige from having to honeypot.

 

 

The show could always bend reality with this, of course, but I can't see how they'd explain Paige having to do half the things Philip and Elizabeth do. The point of an American-born spy is that she can get a good job as herself and pass information. She'd be like Fred, not Lucia, not undercover, but a traitor giving over information with which she was entrusted. She might also be looking for other potential recruits, of course, but it might be counterproductive to have her out honeypotting them because it would interfere with her cover as a loyal worker.

 

Elizabeth can't get a job with security clearance (neither could Lucia) so they work their way in from the fringes as random personalities. If you've got someone with a job like Martha or Stan you want them to keep their nose as clean as possible. Keep their life completely on the up and up except for the info they pass. Have them identify possible other sources, maybe, but be very careful about letting them approach themselves. It would be a waste to get someone who can get security clearance and then treat them like Elizabeth.

 

But even that, I think, would destroy Paige as it destroyed so many other people who did that. Even without all of the dangerous, sordid things Elizabeth and Philip have to do (like fighting, killing, honeypotting, taking on other identities to manipulate people etc.) Paige would still be spending her life lying to everyone about who she was. She'd still be in danger and under stress all the time. And she wouldn't even have the justification of doing it for her country, because she'd be betraying her country for a place she's never been.

[beeble]

It looks like I'm in the minority here because I thought that fight scene at the start was a load of crap. In fact before it even started I thought "and Elizabeth will somehow show superhuman strength and beat up two men." She had her head slammed into a car three times and is fine, yet one punch from her flattens Gaad? And they look like shit the next day while she looks great, aside from shoulder bruises? And why was Gaad out on the street anyway? Between Elizabeth's superman strength and Philip's wonderdick, I'm getting a wee irritated with these characters' untouchable-ness.  

 

And why has Martha never run her hands through her husband's hair? That wig just creeps me out.

 

Oleg is far and away the best character. 

[scrb]

Yeah it's a big suspension of disbelief.

 

I think they decided this couple would be like James Bond or Jason Bourne.  Or Emma Peele, with ultra martial arts skills, figuring that might have some broader appeal, rather than a believable story about spies using their wits to ply their craft for years.

 

This is what Americans are used to from protagonists.  If they mainly made it about the mental skills they use to get unwitting Americans to spy for them, it's not as exciting as throwing in some fight sequences and of course the sex scenes.

[Umbelina]

Martha made a comment to Phillip last season that she knew he wore a toupee.  She thinks he's ashamed of a bald spot.  I loved that they added that in.

[pasdetrois]

 

I think withholding a cancer diagnosis was also common in the U.S. 50 years ago and more, especially if it was an advanced/terminal cancer, which so many were then.

 

My friend was diagnosed with a brain tumor in the early 1970s, when she was a high school senior. Her parents and physicians never told her that it was terminal. She lived with her parents for several years, until her death. Bizarrely, some of her friends and family knew, but she did not, at least not officially.

 

I knew one Paige in the 60s, in the south. And there were daddies who would just sling their little kids into the swimming pool to "force them to learn."

 

I've been wondering when and how Martha will discover the truth about Philip. That quick preview scene of her frantically loading her gun while weeping is worrisome. I haven't forgotten that she wants a child and expect that scenario to surface again.

 

I too thought I saw a moment's pause when Stan spotted Elizabeth with the ice bag. If he figures it out, then I wonder how the show will be sustained, because at some point his knowing should swing the story to their getting apprehended, or killed.

 

Such a hoot to spot the Frusen Gladje. As I recall it tried to capitalize on the success of the newly emerging Haagen Daz, and how shocked we all were when we learned it was manufactured in the US.

 

 

 

 

[SlovakPrincess]

Well, that was even more nudity than usual, lol.

Elizabeth really doesn't have a clue if she thinks Paige would not be miserable living the spy/traitor life the Centre wants for her. Or maybe she thinks they have absolutely no choice, so they should at least make the best of it? Whereas Phillip is willing to fight this.

Poor Annalise. That was really terrible.

Stan continues to be pathetic.

I worry for Martha from the previews...

[sistermagpie]

Between Elizabeth's superman strength and Philip's wonderdick, I'm getting a wee irritated with these characters' untouchable-ness.

 

 

I get the superhuman strength part but what specifically is the wonder dick?

[shura]

The show could always bend reality with this, of course, but I can't see how they'd explain Paige having to do half the things Philip and Elizabeth do. The point of an American-born spy is that she can get a good job as herself and pass information. She'd be like Fred, not Lucia, not undercover, but a traitor giving over information with which she was entrusted. She might also be looking for other potential recruits, of course, but it might be counterproductive to have her out honeypotting them because it would interfere with her cover as a loyal worker.

 

The more I think about this, the more I question the whole idea of a 2nd generation illegal. If Paige is not expected to be more useful than a Martha or a Fred, then what is so special about recruiting her? Is she just supposed to be easier to recruit than a random American because of the influence her parents already have on her? Is she, once recruited, expected to be more loyal because it's a family business? I suppose it's a theory worth testing. But there are certain downsides there, too. If anything goes wrong with the recruitment, Paige knows her parents' real identities and can lead the authorities straight to them. Or even go all Jared on them herself.

[sistermagpie]

Is she just supposed to be easier to recruit than a random American because of the influence her parents already have on her?

 

 

That's it as far as I can tell--Jared and Paige are both just ordinary American teenagers who happen to have parents who are secretly Illegals. In many ways this makes them no more or less likely to spy for the Soviets than anyone else. Jared's a pretty great example. He was on track to go to Carnegie Mellon and be an engineer--which could very well have given him a job that would get him great information. But telling him about his parents just derailed him as a person and traumatized him making him completely unfit for spying of any kind (if he ever was fit). If his parents had been the ones to bring him in maybe it would have gone better, but it wouldn't have turned him into a super spy.

 

I guess traitors are hard enough to come by that they think it's a good idea to try any road they can take, but in this case it almost seems like they put more faith in the parents' ability to influence their children than they would with regular people. With regular people the agents check them out and report back on whether or not they think they can turn them. Some people aren't worth the risk.

 

In fact, there's something like this that comes up in a glancing way in the show Borgen. A former young Communist is accused of being a former spy, and one reason is that his best friend was a really important one. The KGB handler says that yes, they considered approaching him. His friend couldn't guarantee that he'd say yes if he tried to recruit him. So rather than risk their valuable agent they left the other guy alone.

 

If they were assessing Paige as just any personality I can't believe either of them would think she was particularly suited to spying. They might instead see things in her that say she's a really bad candidate.

[RazzleberryPie]

 

 

I really don't understand why Elizabeth is so gungho about grooming Paige. Is she in denial about all the horrible things that have happened to her when she was training to be an agent? It's not like being a file girl will preclude Paige from having to honeypot. Lucia was using her body regularly to get information. That she happened to like her target was irrelevant, she would have had to follow orders regardless. That and I agree with Philip that turning Paige into a spy would break her. The girl is weak, fragile...American. She doesn't have the stuff, and never will, no matter how much Elizabeth wishes she could flip a hidden communist button.

Welp, Annalise was kind of screwed either way.  

Gabriel was playing Elizabeth like a fiddle. And Philip sees through all of it. I could absolutely see him being an orphan, just because of his ability to self-sustain, instead of seeking outside affirmation. Elizabeth eagerly laps up Gabriel's attention as a surrogate parental figure. Show up, bake lasagna, pretend to care about her doubts, then seal the deal with secret momma tapes. Yea, he's dangerous, I bet they will miss the bluntness of granny before this is all over.

I think the woman at the beginning was genuinely betraying her country, then changed her mind. And she's such an emotional wreck that I bet there were several eyes keeping tabs on her that she didn't even know about. She was absolutely oozing bitterness, even Stan would have noticed that!

Loyalties are strange. Just think of how many WW2 vets who saw atrocities and had PTSD, but then still expected their sons to answer the draft to Vietnam and were proud they served their country, or how many people are in very strict abusive religions (let's say Warren Jeff's FDLS or Taliban Islam) where they know things aren't right, but they can't quite break free from the indoctrination and put their children right in the same situations. Indoctrination is complicated. A few bad apples don't spoil the bunch, the sum is greater than the parts, sacrifice means reward, one persons needs are less important than the whole groups, etc. That's why I think Elizabeth would encourage and be proud of Paige for becoming a spy.

 

Annaliese had to go. As soon as she confessed her love and that she was spying, she became unreliable and useless. Elizabeth would've taken her out without flinching.

 

Gabriel - he IS Elizabeth's 'guardian angel' way playing her, and Philip saw it. Not sure how Elizabeth doesn't, but I like the actor and the character.

 

As soon as the CIA woman said she needed to go to the bathroom, I expected Elizabeth to bolt. Definitely when she then kept begging her to stay. The whole thing looked like a set up to me. I know they needed a big opening action scene and to set up injuries, but I can't believe Elizabeth stayed there that long and didn't immediately duck into another building or business to alter her disguise. 

[rozen]

I can see the reasoning behind Elizabeth's route. She stayed in the dark, along residential streets where people were probably in bed and not watching outside. The risk was probably much lower than her ducking into a brightly lit gas station to change and having a cashier recognize her later or something. 

 

I don't think the fight scene was that unrealistic. Two paunchy, not field-active, agents approached some whippet-thin woman who probably wasn't even who they were looking for. And, even if she was, they would assume she was a go-between while the real bad actors stayed in the shadows. They were wide open, easily disoriented, and she got the first shot at them. I think Elizabeth's training was just as good as any MMA fighter's, and they can withstand being pinned down with someone punching with their full body weight for minutes at a time*.  

 

The fact The Center has Philip and Elizabeth doing such low-level work that increases their chances of discovery shows just how thread-bare the whole operation is. 

 

*Look at Ronda Rousey, she's a monster. HItomi Akano lasted 3 rounds with Cyborg when she was a peak roid usage. Trained atheletes can take a pretty heavy beating without passing out.

Edited January 31, 2015 by rozen

[J-Man]

I guess I was not paying close enough attention, because somehow I got the impression (although I couldn't make sense of it) that NINA was going to be the US-Canada Institute visitor to Washington. I thought I saw her picture on the projector screen at the end of the meeting where they were discussing it. I was trying to figure out how they managed to reintegrate Nina into "the system" and bring her back, but it made absolutely no sense.

[kikaha]

 

She totally got the drop on them, used the element of surprise and took out Gaad right away. When the other guy had her in a choke hold, she smartly used the oncoming motorcycle to her advantage.

 

If she really got the jump on them,she might have taken down the first guy.  Maybe.  She has to overcome a huge weight disadvantage, and it's real hard for me to believe a person with her tiny frame could throw a punch with much power.  This also assumes she really could get the jump on them. They were pursuing a Soviet spy.  Their nerves would have been wound up tighter than a snare drum.  No way they just amble on up to a woman they have stopped on the street, leaving themselves wide open to attack.

 

In any case, jump or not, I think it's impossible for her to take the second man.  At least without a weapon. Her 'escape' was total fantasy. 

 

I expect Stan to learn the truth this season.  Martha, too.  Who lives?  Who dies?

[pithy]

Anybody have any thoughts about the new woman in the meeting at the Rezidentura?

[Crazy8]

My favorite scene was definitely the one between Phillip, Elizabeth and Gabriel, the new/old handler. So many insights into who the main characters are and how they've gotten where they are. Clearly the older dude is a father figure to her, and he knows how to focus Elizabeth's mind on the cause by giving her that tape from her Mom and cooking them a taste of the Motherland. Obviously he's coaxing her look to what she wants from her relationship with Paige too. He's well aware of the benefits of carrot over stick. Phillip has to be handled differently though and he knows it. The Scrabble board may as well have been a chess board and I can see them trying to figure each other out over the course of the season.

Overall, great ep. Nuanced and plenty of irons have been put in the fire for later.

[sistermagpie]

Clearly the older dude is a father figure to her, and he knows how to focus Elizabeth's mind on the cause by giving her that tape from her Mom and cooking them a taste of the Motherland.

 

 

Answering in the Elizabeth thread.

[shura]

In any case, jump or not, I think it's impossible for her to take the second man.  At least without a weapon. Her 'escape' was total fantasy.

 

All she did was make the guy lose his balance and fall onto the road in front of the motorcycle. The guy saw the oncoming bike, decided, understandably, to focus on getting out of the way and pretty much let her go on his own accord. The bike then smashed into him, while Elizabeth managed not to get hit. Luck, plot considerations, sure, but I don't think it was impossible.

[chocolatine]

Clearly the older dude is a father figure to her, and he knows how to focus Elizabeth's mind on the cause by giving her that tape from her Mom and cooking them a taste of the Motherland.

 

 

It looks like he made lasagna, which is most certainly not a taste of the motherland. Considering the time and circumstances Elizabeth and Phillip grew up in, I'm 99.99% sure that prior to joining the KGB/coming to the US they had never eaten anything exotic, decadent, or even what could be considered "comfort food".

[Blakeston]

I agree with those who find it odd that they would name their daughter Paige.

 

I realize that there were some baby girls being named Paige in the late 60's. And I'm not suggesting that someone being named Paige back then would draw suspicion of espionage.

 

But it was somewhat unusual, and I can't imagine the Center approving of an unusual name for one of their spies' children. I think they'd insist on traditional names that you'd expect a character in a Norman Rockwell painting to have - like Elizabeth, Philip and Henry ended up with.

 

(Also, I'm sick of Hollywood giving characters names that are popular nowadays, but weren't when the characters were born. From watching TV and movies, you'd think that Olivia was one of the most popular names for baby girls in the 70's and 80's.)

 

It looks like he made lasagna, which is most certainly not a taste of the motherland.

 

He was cooking something in a pan, and we saw tomatoes and onions - but we never saw the dish closely enough to know what it was. The dialogue made it sound like it was a traditional food for them.

[chocolatine]

He was cooking something in a pan, and we saw tomatoes and onions - but we never saw the dish closely enough to know what it was. The dialogue made it sound like it was a traditional food for them.

 

 

Trust me, I know traditional Russian food, especially back from the Soviet days, and that dish wasn't it (and neither was ice cream for dessert). I can believe that he used to cook lasagna for them when he first "handled" them in America to get them accustomed to what Americans eat, but it was absolutely not "a taste of the motherland".

[Blakeston]

Trust me, I know traditional Russian food, especially back from the Soviet days, and that dish wasn't it (and neither was ice cream for dessert). I can believe that he used to cook lasagna for them when he first "handled" them in America to get them accustomed to what Americans eat, but it was absolutely not "a taste of the motherland".

But what makes you think it had to be lasagna?

Edited February 1, 2015 by Blakeston

[Totale]

Trust me, I know traditional Russian food, especially back from the Soviet days, and that dish wasn't it

 

I thought it was Halupki.

[Emme]

I've been thinking about Elizabeth, and the guy she was surveillance training at the end of the episode. We didn't get a good look at him - it was dark. I couldn't ascertain his age, but he was good looking. Maybe Elizabeth somehow has plans for him and Paige? She certainly took note of Elizabeth and the boy at the church event. Could Elizabeth be calculating that Paige is now influenced by the opposite sex, and will somehow introduce this trainee to influence Paige? Maybe Elizabeth is doing this completely outside of Philip's knowledge? Maybe Gabriel is involved? Just speculating here...

[sistermagpie]

But it was somewhat unusual, and I can't imagine the Center approving of an unusual name for one of their spies' children. I think they'd insist on traditional names that you'd expect a character in a Norman Rockwell painting to have - like Elizabeth, Philip and Henry ended up with.

 

 

Elizabeth and Philip are named what they're named because their names are stolen from dead children. Emmett and Leanne had less common names--Jared isn't that common either. It's possible that they got the name Paige from hearing it somewhere in the states to the Centre approved it as okay name. I mean, Philip and Elizabeth have the same experience of American names as the Centre would, and if they've heard the name Paige and researched it enough to know it wasn't made up I can easily see the Centre saying it's fine. In fact, perhaps the real Elizabeth Jennings had a mother named Paige and she's supposed to be named after her, for all we know. Or the Centre has lots of names they've picked up from social security #s so they know it's more natural to mix in less common names. They probably had freedom in naming as long as they stayed within certain boundaries. Ironically, expecting them to stick to Norman Rockwell names would sort of be exactly the wrong way to go--it's naming the kids the Russian way. Or in a way that sort of shows far less sophisticated understanding of US culture.

 

I couldn't ascertain his age, but he was good looking. Maybe Elizabeth somehow has plans for him and Paige?

 

 

With the many issues Elizabeth has about her own sexual history I can't imagine her asking a grown man to seduce her daughter to manipulate her. Plus the guy's probably getting ready for important missions himself. Paige has got two Illegals there to influence her who are her parents. I don't think Elizabeth would ever think she also needs a hot guy. In fact, she'd probably be disgusted at the idea. That's like the church sucking her in with cute boys singing about Jesus. She's going to convince her using the righteousness of her cause. if she needs a honeytrap Elizabeth wouldn't respect her commitment.

Edited February 1, 2015 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

How you know it was a "heated" pool?

I think she threw her in the pool, because she was disgusted at how weak Paige was, but wavering about getting in so she nipped that in the bud and tossed her in.  Sink or swim, but don't dither. It's weak and pampered to be too scared to decide to ease into a heated indoor pool, so she tossed her.

[RazzleberryPie]

How you know it was a "heated" pool?

 

Because it was indoors, and what looked a nicer YMCA or health club, and they are usually heated. Even if it wasn't , it was far more luxurious and comfortable than any Soviet Russian community pool for families. It was a Sissy American Bougie pool and not some ice cold watering hole with river dirt, wildlife, heavy currents, etc. By Soviet standards, Little Paige needed to get over her whiney teetering and swim, so she got shoved into the pool. 

[chocolatine]

But what makes you think it had to be lasagna?

 

 

I thought it was Halupki.

 

 

There was a chunk of hard cheese on Gabriel's cutting board and melted cheese in the dish. Golubtsy are not made with cheese. That kind of cheese was not readily available in the '40s and '50s when Elizabeth and Phillip were growing up. And it doesn't sound like either of them came from a "connected" background where they could have gotten luxury goods on the black market.

[Umbelina]

I think it was Halupki (stuffed cabbages) too.  It's too bad they didn't show it.  I was friends with an (escaped) Russian a long time ago, that's what he made for me one night. 

 

I think Elizabeth is fascinating.  In this episode she seemed to revert a bit.  She'd softened up last season, fell in love with Phillip, and seemed a bit more motherly too.  Both Phillip and the kids always seemed simply like tools to her, tools that enabled her to do her job.  This episode, she went back to that frame of mind a bit.  She's the dedicated true believer here.

 

It's kind of interesting if you flip the script and try to picture American patriots trying to pull this off in Moscow.  The "true patriot" would be the hero then, and Phillip, the seduced by the culture guy, would be more of the traitor/weakling.  Although, reportedly, the US never successfully placed this kind of long term agent-couples in Russia.  Language and customs were just too difficult to master.   Also, I remember reading a real spy say that, although there were many of these couples placed in the USA, none of them had the perfect American accents that Phillip and Elizabeth have.  They said that was the most significant deviation from reality with this show.  The whole marry other people thing really did happen, but mastering perfect American english was as tough for them as it is for an American to master perfect day to day Russian.  Obviously, the closed society/more of a police state in Russia was another problem as far as placing American's there.

[Constantinople]

Elizabeth and Philip are named what they're named because their names are stolen from dead children. Emmett and Leanne had less common names--Jared isn't that common either. It's possible that they got the name Paige from hearing it somewhere in the states to the Centre approved it as okay name. I mean, Philip and Elizabeth have the same experience of American names as the Centre would, and if they've heard the name Paige and researched it enough to know it wasn't made up I can easily see the Centre saying it's fine. In fact, perhaps the real Elizabeth Jennings had a mother named Paige and she's supposed to be named after her, for all we know. Or the Centre has lots of names they've picked up from social security #s so they know it's more natural to mix in less common names. They probably had freedom in naming as long as they stayed within certain boundaries. Ironically, expecting them to stick to Norman Rockwell names would sort of be exactly the wrong way to go--it's naming the kids the Russian way. Or in a way that sort of shows far less sophisticated understanding of US culture.

No one is suggesting the kids should have been named Jennifer & Michael, or David & Lisa, but Paige is an outlier, not even cracking the top 300 in 1968. It's an extreme outlier among people of Elizabeth and Philip's generation, not even cracking the top 1000 and sometimes not even in the top 1500 or 2000. Its rarity calls attention to itself.

In contrast, Henry is common, but not particularly so, near the top 100 in the late 60s / early 70s, and around the top 30 among people of his parents' generation.

Besides, in terms of popularity, my mother and father were a 3 and 1, respectively, I'm a 9 and my sister is a 20, and the FBI never caught wind of us.

[sistermagpie]

No one is suggesting the kids should have been named Jennifer & Michael, or David & Lisa, but Paige is an outlier, not even cracking the top 300 in 1968. It's an extreme outlier among people of Elizabeth and Philip's generation, not even cracking the top 1000 and sometimes not even in the top 1500 or 2000. Its rarity calls attention to itself.

 

 

I get the first aspect of it, that it was a more rarely used name. I just don't get how significantly it's calling attention to itself. It's a legitimate name that existed long before Paige was born, there are other Paiges of her age, it's not Russian, it's used in the US rarely but regularly, it actually was apparently already experiencing an uptick in popularity in the 1960s which even puts it on trend. The attention it calls to itself is mostly on the grade school level where people might call her "Blank Page" or something, which makes her stand out about as much as a girl named Fiona in the same time period. Or possibly Jared as well. From the pov of her parents' secret Paige's joining protests at a liberal church instead of being a cheerleader is probably far more attention-getting.

 

ETA: I do think that they make those kinds of choices a lot, where they are really paranoid about not drawing any attention, even if it's not something that would say "different" in any way. I just feel like with the name thing they're actually doing it right.

Edited February 1, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Emme]

With the many issues Elizabeth has about her own sexual history I can't imagine her asking a grown man to seduce her daughter to manipulate her. Plus the guy's probably getting ready for important missions himself. Paige has got two Illegals there to influence her who are her parents. I don't think Elizabeth would ever think she also needs a hot guy. In fact, she'd probably be disgusted at the idea. That's like the church sucking her in with cute boys singing about Jesus. She's going to convince her using the righteousness of her cause. if she needs a honeytrap Elizabeth wouldn't respect her commitment.

You make good points. However, I was thinking that Elizabeth would't necessarily want the guy to seduce Paige, but somehow influence her. Paige's judgement might be clouded by having a crush on the guy? But you are right re: honeypotting/disrespect.

[JennyMominFL]

I'm a Jennifer born in 1970. I remember Henry being an old persons name. I never knew a kid named Henry. I did know two Paiges in my school of 1500.

I thought those were stuffed cabages too. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[CarpeDiem54]

I'm 60 and know two Paiges my age and neither one were from the South. I agree that Henry was an "old person's" name and don't know anyone my age with it.

[DrSpaceman]

I think the name Paige is one of the least problems on this show in terms of believability. 

 

No more than many other similar shy shows though. 

 

It was a pretty good episode.  Waiting for Stan to put things together the same way I waited for Hank to put it together in Breaking Bad.  I didn't realize it was Stan's boss that got in the fight with Elizabeth at first, not until the next morning. 

 

Just because it makes the show move forward I imagine Paige will be put in the grooming program

 

Does it strike anyone as odd that with a few tweaks, this could basically be the backstory of Syndey Bristow from Alias, with Paige being Sydney?  If Phillip just flips to the other side as a double agent, plus the timing is off a few years, otherwise, this is Sydney's backstory from her childhood.  except her dad did not know he was married to a soviet spy while she was growing up. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[Boundary]

Nina will be back because she's hot and the show needs all the ratings it can get.

 

She is hot and that has to be acknowledged. But to be fair to be fair to Annet Mahendru, her character was also interesting. I spent an awful amount of time wondering whose side Nina was truly on before settling with Team Nina. The only other character with that kind of identity complexities is Philip but we've mostly deciphered him. Nina, in addition to the spying, also has two influential men on both sides in love with her - that's also a dynamic made for tv. So yes, let TPTB find whatever contrived reason to bring Nina back, I won't investigate too vigorously.

 

One one level, probably because, as we saw in Season 1, his wife was reminding him to not be suspicious of everyone (right after they moved to DC when he completed his undercover work).  And I think it's typical - these are his friends who he knows own a travel agency (one he and friends have used).  I don't think anyone would immediately be suspicious that she was involved. 

 

Was her face noticeably battered in that scene?  I remember her with ice on the shoulder but didn't notice her face at the time (I do realize it was battered as they showed her covering the bruise).

 

I agree with this premise. Stan had a suspicion early in the pilot episode, he even took time to sneak around the garage. But that suspicion wasn't nursed and it died out. It would take something extraordinary to jolt his brain, something like an FBI portrait that has an eery similarity to Elizabeth. With that suspicion back in place, Stan would then work on proving it.

Does it strike anyone as odd that with a few tweaks, this could basically be the backstory of Syndey Bristow from Alias, with Paige being Sydney?  If Phillip just flips to the other side as a double agent, plus the timing is off a few years, otherwise, this is Sydney's backstory from her childhood.  except her dad did not know he was married to a soviet spy while she was growing up. 

 

I mentioned this in the first season. Even Paige looks like a young Syd!!

Edited February 2, 2015 by Boundary

[Mozelle]

No one is suggesting the kids should have been named Jennifer & Michael, or David & Lisa, but Paige is an outlier, not even cracking the top 300 in 1968. It's an extreme outlier among people of Elizabeth and Philip's generation, not even cracking the top 1000 and sometimes not even in the top 1500 or 2000. Its rarity calls attention to itself.

In contrast, Henry is common, but not particularly so, near the top 100 in the late 60s / early 70s, and around the top 30 among people of his parents' generation.

Besides, in terms of popularity, my mother and father were a 3 and 1, respectively, I'm a 9 and my sister is a 20, and the FBI never caught wind of us.

 

So, is the problem that it doesn't crack some Popular Names of 19xx list? Not all fiction takes that tact. The name Paige isn't so uncommon or that much of an outlier either really. It's 1982 in The Americans world and Paige is 14. As the list demonstrates, there were women with the name Paige prior to 1968. 

[nycapa]

 

I could almost buy the wig issues, but why not get off the street?  Tons of buildings around there, and she could have called a taxi or someone to pick her up.

 

Ha, this scene was actually shot 2 blocks away from my house (in Brooklyn), and that whole scene my husband and I were yelling "you can come here Elizabeth! We're right around the corner!"  Especially weird because Keri Russell actually lives very near here and we see her all the time around the neighborhood.  I actually just saw her at a neighborhood bar a couple weeks ago - kissing Matthew Rhys - and as I was completely out of touch about the fact that they were dating in real life it was a very surreal experience...

[scrb]

 

Does it strike anyone as odd that with a few tweaks, this could basically be the backstory of Syndey Bristow from Alias, with Paige being Sydney?  

 

That can't be, because Felicity and Hanna are close in age, not mother and daughter apart in age.

[Umbelina]

I think part of the whole "just groom page" plan from the KGB is cultural ignorance.  The USA and the USSR had (have, now with Russia) so many cultural differences that it's hard to really understand, on a very basic level, that what may seem easy to them, is not, not with a kid who has been raised in relative ease, wealth, and the kind of basic freedoms, such as speaking your mind without fear, choosing your own beliefs that Moscow big wigs simply couldn't understand, no matter how much they studied the US.  Did they even listen to their agents that were embedded?  Maybe, a bit, but basically they were just tools to carry out orders.

 

Elizabeth has, in many ways, closed herself off from those US "basic" freedoms, almost as if she will not allow herself to see any good in democracy or the US way of life, because it may shake her commitment.  Phillip is quite different, is more enmeshed, and, he understands, or is beginning to understand that, although the foreign policies may infuriate him, day to day life is much better in the USA. 

 

Phillip GETS that blowing up his daughter's world by both the grooming, and the inevitable reveal that they are Soviet spies, and they want Paige to be one too is really quite insane.  It simply won't work, although the KGB could certainly use tactics to force Paige into it, or to keep her mouth shut.  Or, if she becomes resentful, or liable to turn her parents in, to simply shoot her in the head, or "disappear her."  Phillip KNOWS that the KGB doesn't give a shit about their kids, and it (rightly IMO) scares him silly.

 

Elizabeth, who constantly works hard at being a true believer, SHOULD know the same thing, but she either doesn't, or is blindly refusing to believe it.  She loves the idea of her daughter knowing who Elizabeth is, and the idea of being fighters against the evil US empire TOGETHER.  She has absolute (or is forcing absolute) confidence that her daughter will love and admire her more after this reveal, and love to serve in her cause.

 

It's going to be a mess.

 

Elizabeth doesn't get what we, or most of us do, since we were born here, and can kind of understand what it would have done to us, had our parents confessed treason and expected us to choose their lives as a young teen.  Hell, very few kids wanted to follow in mom and dad's footsteps as plumbers, or lawyers, or travel agents, let alone turning your entire future over to the KGB!  Phillip does get it.

 

It's going to be a fascinating mess.

[Boundary]

They've started on this road, they have to go through with it. So basically, Philip will lose this argument unless he does something drastic. It's going to be messy indeed.

[sistermagpie]

They've started on this road, they have to go through with it. So basically, Philip will lose this argument unless he does something drastic. It's going to be messy indeed.

 

 

That's where the whole thing is such a question mark. Because where is this going to go? Even if Elizabeth started to see Philip's side of it, what can they do? Right now Elizabeth is probably grateful that the Centre is breathing down their necks because she can pretend this isn't about what she wants personally. But even if she started to see things differently, that would just put her where Philip is--helpless.

 

So as things stand now after this first ep it seems like Elizabeth is happily settled in the center of "her people," bringing Paige into the fold, getting Gabriel's approval, grateful to the Centre for their orders about Paige and seeing it as the way to get everything she wants. The only fly in the ointment is Philip dragging his feet and being a killjoy (and accusing her of doing this for herself rather than just the Cause).

 

And then there's Philip who's basically helpless and alone. There's very little he can actively do against the KGB, he has nobody on his side on the issue, and he's got to be very careful about how he tries to undermine Elizabeth's program. Because Philip doesn't have some alternate thing he wants for Paige--it's not like it's Elizabeth/KGB vs. Tim/Church vs. Philip/Something else (or church because that's what Paige is into right now). I'd seriously hate it if they brought defection into this question because that seems like way too simple a story of the bad Russians driving their own people to see that the US is best. I feel like it's more in keeping with the show to want to zigzag on that.

[Umbelina]

It's a great story!  It has so many layers, and possibilities.

 

If/when they do tell Paige, and she rebels, even Elizabeth would have to admit the KGB would kill her or take her in order to protect their cover.  Or possibly SAY they took her.

 

I do think they could run, to some non strategic place where the KGB would have trouble finding them, but then the show becomes quite different, and I don't think Elizabeth would run, even to save her daughter.  Hell, she'd probably believe the "We took her back to the USSR to protect her and you, and we will raise her with your values Elizabeth!  To Phillip?  Step out of line and she's dead.  Do better with your son, because we will want him soon.

[benteen]

Providing that Paige and Henry survive, I really wonder what the future will be like for those two.  Especially if (and likely when) their parents are exposed as Soviet spies.

 

Excellent points raised about Philip having no real options or help in keeping Paige away from the KGB.  Even defection would be difficult considering the damage they've done in the past year especially.

[Umbelina]

He could take the kids and run to some unimportant area, if he had the connections (secure enough from the KGB) to get new ID's, which he probably doesn't.  Paige might be all for that, if she is as horrified as I think she will be when her mom tells her the truth.

 

He need's "Better call Saul's" disappearing guy.

 

There would be no show if that happened though, well, there COULD be, but will the writers be willing to pull an Alias and reboot?  (When Alias destroyed SD-6 in season 2, groundbreaking move there.) 

[maraleia]

Keep in mind with Glasnost and Perestroika coming three years down the line all of these Soviet spies will be out of work. Now the characters don't know that but we do and since Paige will only be 17 in 1985 it will be interesting to see where Joe and Joel take this story.