S05.E02: I'm The Liver

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

 

Clips:

 

 

 

[maraleia]

 

Frank tries to talk Sheila out of an offer from two lesbians who want to buy her home and begins warning everyone of the neighborhood's impending gentrification. Meanwhile, Lip starts his first day of work, Kev bonds with Svetlana, Ian plots revenge with Mickey and Mandy against a homophobic military funeral protest and Fiona officially comes off house arrest.

[Primetimer]

As Fiona embarks on the post-ankle monitor period of her life, Deb gets a new look, Mandy makes like a church girl, and even Frank will put on a tie for some free prime rib.

Read the story

[SoWindsor]

I have mixed feelings about this episode.

I liked the scenes with Fiona and her boss. Was she always chaos? I'm trying to remember back to earlier seasons and she was much more stable, right? It didn't really fit with her character to take Deb to the show. How did she get in anyway?

I enjoyed the Kevin and Svetlana scenes. Is the actress pregnant in real life? She looked really beautiful. Does V have postpartum depression or some version of it?

Ian and Mickey felt off to me and they've been my faves since season 1. Can't put my finger on why? Hopefully it's not the curse of a couple losing chemistry when they finally get together.

Why is Mandy with Kenyatta? I can't imagine ian and mickey allow that after what happened last season. Lip and Mandy were cute but I like him with Amanda. Wonder if she'll visit or if she'll be off the show this whole season.

Frank is so boring. I hope the show runners read these boards to see that the audience is just not engaged with his character anymore.

[Advance35]

I hate to say it but Fiona is really wearing thin with me.   Taking a minor into a club like that, the fighting in the club.   Her boss doesn't strike me as a prize but that musician has trouble written all over him.    I was hoping Fiona would be a tad smarter this year.

 

Ian is clearly going through it and Mickey is under the impression if they act like nothing is wrong everything will work out, I think he's going to very much regret this course of action.   I thought his plan was clever, using Mandy as a honey trap and than framing the guy with photographic evidence. LOL.   CM does menacing VERY well.   And I'm really glad the writers didn't just forget he went AWOL with the military.   I see that coming up toward the end of the season,  if he and Mickey survive the Bi-Polar issues, Ian could be going away for a little while at the end of the season and wouldn't that be a switch considering it was Mickey that went away in their early days.   I did laugh when Mickey called Ian "Hey, Private Ryan".

 

Svetlana and Kev bonding was sweet, as was her helping Debbie with her hair (though the make-up MUST go) but WOAH!  At breastfeeding another woman's baby.  Vee should have smacked Kev over that.

 

It was good to see Mandy, I swear she'll never get past her crush on Lip, and that's ok, some guys just get to you but I hope she moves forward and starts thinking more about herself and if she put her mind to it, I actually think she could do a lot better than Lip, since she's such a manhunter.

[Blue Castle]

I thought this was a pretty pointless episode except for the Fiona and Debbie scenes.  Seemed like a placeholder and a lot of the characters felt like they were written by someone who'd never watched the show before (who was the writer?)

 

 

I liked the scenes with Fiona and her boss. Was she always chaos? I'm trying to remember back to earlier seasons and she was much more stable, right? It didn't really fit with her character to take Deb to the show. How did she get in anyway?

 

This scene bugged me a lot, actually.  All the stuff with her boss bugged me.  I feel like the show is trying to pigeonhole Fiona into this "chaotic" person but she's really someone who normally is pretty stable.  The whole point of last season is that she spiralled for the first time in her young life (and that's another thing--she is young.  She's had a huge amount of responsibility on her since she was about six years old, but sometimes she acts her age and does stupid things.)  I feel like the episode's final scene was implying that Dermot Mulroney was right about her and her choices--but to me he just seemed like a jerk who was blaming a woman's "chaos" for his own chaotic behavior.  Like when he was saying a chaotic woman was reponsible for him shooting up the first time?  Ugh.  Take responsibility for your own actions, guy.

 

 

Why is Mandy with Kenyatta? I can't imagine ian and mickey allow that after what happened last season.

 

Mickey and Ian don't "allow" her to do anything--she's an adult, she's her own person, and she does what she wants--even if it is self-destructive.  I'm not sure what they're supposed to do about the situation beyond calling the cops on Kenyatta or kicking both Mandy and Kenyatta out of the house--and I can't picture Mickey ever doing either of those things.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Debbie. It's so hard to be that age and want to grow up when everyone thinks you're still a little kid. She is 14, not a baby, but they all act like she's still 8. If she wants to cut her hair and/or stop wearing braids, there is totally normal. I agree that the makeup needed to be turned down a notch but I remember experimenting with makeup when I was 11 or 12 (of course, my mom wouldn't actually let me wear makeup yet so I bought it on the sly, put it on after I got to school, and then wiped it off before I went home). By eighth grade, I was wearing eyeliner and lipstick to school with my parents' knowledge. But what makes it worse to me is that in many ways, the Gallaghers treat Debbie like an adult, entrusting her to take care of Liam and run a daycare, but then they want to act like she is still a little kid. I'm glad Fiona came around on Debbie's hair, but taking her to that club was a huge mistake.

 

I loved Svetlana giving Kevin baby advice. I knew it was just a matter of time before her boob went into one of those babies' mouths.

 

I really wish Mandy had told Lip what was going on with Ian. Just because they managed to come up with a plan to diffuse the situation this time does NOT mean that Ian is okay.

 

I really feel for Sheila. She has been more than patient with Sammi and Chuckie. It's sad when Debbie has more awareness about Frank than Sammi does. But Sammi has got to go. I couldn't believe that she asked Fiona if she could make a Father's Day dinner for Frank at her house and invited herself to that organ recipient dinner. She has no boundaries.

[Blue Castle]

I'm glad Fiona came around on Debbie's hair, but taking her to that club was a huge mistake.

Maybe I'm weird but I thought the "Fiona is bad idea jeans" thing was kind of overblown in this episode. I don't think taking her 14 year old sister to a small club to see a band she knows personally is all that bad? They weren't drinking, they were just dancing and listening to music. The only issue i had with Fiona was when she left Debbie to dance on stage (especially after she knew there was a creepy guy there). She should've stayed with Debs.

[Vapor]

It seemed clear to me that Fiona was upset with herself because she felt like she was setting a bad example. Putting it into Debbie's head that punching a guy out, risking arrest, and running into the night laughing is the best way to handle a situation. It had less to do with going out and having fun, and more just a total accumulative of the scenario. She's a minor in a place with alcohol and guys hitting on her, and she VERY recently expressed a desire to actually be hit upon, and Fiona's answer was to take her out with her.

 

Part of it is also what her boss said about her being chaos.

 

I'm not sure if Fiona's "chaotic lifestyle" is one that is meant to be seen as always being there. At least not to this extent. Fiona actually said that she feels freer now that the ankle bracelet is off. Like she's just been unleashed, and so she has this big burst of emotion that drives her to go out and have fun, despite her responsibilities.

 

I don't know if I would take what her boss said to be the show's position on her character though. To me, that guy is crazy, and he would be that way whether Fiona was there or not. It isn't her fault that he sometimes acts weird- it's because he's just weird, and he uses women he's attracted to as an excuse for his behavior.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Vapor

[backhometome]

Ian in a house full of weapons is really not a good idea. I hope they don't have Mickey in denial about Ian for long.

 

I love how last week Lip had friends and now this week Ian/Mickey have friends. I guess those are friends from Ian's job?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ian said those were other gay guys he knew who had served in the military and were sick of the kind of shit that happened at the funeral.

Edited January 19, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[TeresaDee]

I think that what's getting forgotten here is that Fiona is relatively stable...with a focus on "relatively". Next to her parents she looks like Mother Teresa, but she really is a hot mess. Taking Debbie to that club was all about her needs--if she wanted to spend quality time with her14 year old sister ...how about a movie?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that Fiona's main motivation for taking Debbie to the club was selfishness because she was feeling rejected by her boss and she really wanted to go see the band to get an ego boost and she had already asked Lip and Vee to go with her. But I think there was a small part of her that took Debbie because she was trying to show Debbie that she sees her as older, not a little kid, and that she accepts Debbie's new teenage persona. But, as is often the case, she didn't think it through all the way.

[CarolMK]

I'm trying to figure out why Sheila still wants to be married to Frank. Didn't she do it just to adopt those native american kids, which ended up not working out? Maybe Sheila can't handle being alone, which is why she went for Jodi previously. And Sami and her son are just flat out annoying. Very surprised to see all the organ recipients show up.

 

The scene with Mandy, gay friend, and bigoted minister was truly hilarious. 

 

Hopefully Fiona's boss has made it clear to her to stop coming on to him. Isn't he twice her age anyway?

Wonder how long Carl is going to be in the wheelchair. He does still look pretty young compared to Debbie.

[Chaos Theory]

I'm trying to figure out why Sheila still wants to be married to Frank. Didn't she do it just to adopt those native american kids, which ended up not working out? Maybe Sheila can't handle being alone, which is why she went for Jodi previously. .

Being with Frank and all his chaos is better the dying alone. Without him Sheila really doesn't have anyone. Everything she has done is to have someone to care for and to care for her. Frank for better or worse has always been her best option unless she wants to strike out on her own.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[iMonrey]

I like Debbie's new haircut, but Kevin looks awful with his head shaved. Clearly Steve Howey was wearing a wig for the first two episodes.

 

I just hope this incident at the bar smacks some sense into Fiona because I agree with her boss. Robbie was right, she's addicted to danger. I also thought it was wrong of her to follow that couple out of the restaurant and confront them over her tip. It's understandable, but in her case she needs to keep her nose clean because she's one slip-up away from winding up back in prison.

[wovenloaf]

I didn't think taking Debbie to see the band was a horrible thing to do. Leaving to go on stage was kind of questionable, and getting into a brawl was beyond the pale. But just taking her there would have been fine to me, had Fiona actually behaved like an adult while there with her.

I don't really like how the writers have made Fiona now... It's like she no longer has any impulse control whatsoever, which is not how she was in the first 3 seasons. I get that she's young and all that, but they took her from a relatively responsible person who is capable of providing a loving home (to the best of her ability) for 5 kids to some broad who gets in bar brawls, leaves drugs out for toddlers to eat, and can barely stay out of jail. Of course people make mistakes, but the change seems a little extreme.

Mandy looks so much better with her hair lighter!

Edited January 19, 2015 by wovenloaf

[TyranAmiros]

Can't complain about Fiona taking Debbie to the concert--it was great seeing Fiona recognize Debbie's growing up and being supportive. We had Fiona in "mom" mode toward Debs last season and I liked seeing them having fun together.

I also really liked the Svetlana scenes this episode. Last season she was there as a pure antagonist for Mickey/Ian, so it's nice she gets to build positive connections with Kevin, Debbie, and Ian. Ironically, she's a better influence on Debbie than Holly or Fiona right now.

Overall, last season felt so disconnected, with Fiona, Lip, Ian/Mickey, Debbie, and Frank in different worlds. I'm really liking the way the characters are intersecting in new ways so far this season.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't think taking Debbie to the club was all that horrible.  For the most part Fiona kept an eye on her and kept all the touchy guys off her and didn't let her drink.  Fiona lacks impulse control which is pretty much been cannon (hell she met Jimmy/Steve after a club fight way back in season one for God sake And she only liked him for really real after she found out he stole cars for a living )  Fiona's impulse control has only gotten worse but then that is how unchecked addiction works.   Her drug of choice has always been chaos and the wrong man the problem is she is just a good enough influence on her sister to rub off on her.  Debbie had the same look of ecstasy on her face after the club run that Fiona had after her boss hit the rude customer.  Debbie is prime for her own addictive personality disorder.

 

I loved the Ian/Mickey stuff.   I actually thought it was sweet that Mickey wanted to go with Ian to the funeral.  Couple stuff.  Also couple stuff blackmailing homophobic priest with photo of him getting a hummer from a dude.  Well it was better the Ian's plan.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Chas411]

Fiona is bugging me. I mean she was always feisty but two fights in one episode? I just thought she might have learned something after last season but apparently she seems to have regressed even more.

 

Kev also wasn't my favourite for the first time ever. I'm dreading the inevitable seperation of Kev/V that she show seems to be foreshadowing.

 

Lip/Mandy... no. I'll never by it but I've a feeling the writers will try to sell it until the end of the show run. Even if she does leave next week after having some ~meaningful goodbye sex with Lip. I'll fully expect her to be back by the end of the season pregnant with his baby or something.

[mccartygirl]

Fiona has always bugged me, I stopped watching mid-season last year because I just couldn't stand her anymore. I am almost to the point that I'm going to start fast forwarding through her scenes. I love every scene with Lip in it and have always been a strange one, I have loved Mickey from day one! I could watch a whole show of just Lip and Mickey. 

[iMonrey]

Maybe I missed something but there seems to be some kind of disconnect at the end where Fiona took Debs to the club; she originally called V and asked her to go, then went to V's house, which is where she found Debbie all tarted up by Svetlana. So then she brings Debs home and asks her to go to the club - what the hell happened to V?

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe I missed something but there seems to be some kind of disconnect at the end where Fiona took Debs to the club; she originally called V and asked her to go, then went to V's house, which is where she found Debbie all tarted up by Svetlana. So then she brings Debs home and asks her to go to the club - what the hell happened to V?

 

Everyone else had plans and then Fiona shows up at home to find Debs going through teenage stuff so she offers to take Deb with her instead.  Fiona wanted to celebrate her newfound freedom but everyone had other stuff to do.  

 

 

Fiona is bugging me. I mean she was always feisty but two fights in one episode? I just thought she might have learned something after last season but apparently she seems to have regressed even more.

 

 

Actually the opposite.   After the 2nd fight she took time to think about her actions which she has never done before.  She looked over at her sister and saw how Deb was reacting.  I think Fiona is thinking about her actions after the fact at least which she has never done before.  She just needs to start thinking before she acts.    

[NorthstarATL]

Kev's haircut is so much better than the rat's nest he had going on! Besides the problem with the babies, he works around food and drink. A shaved head is so much easier to contend with! V really ought to think twice before declaring that she owns any part of another human being. I thought that ended?

   I hate what they've done with both Fiona and Ian. I see where Ian' storyline stems from, but he had such an interesting plot potential before they settled on such a tired trajectory. Fiona doesn't even have the mental illness excuse. I think what we were supposed to get from last season was that, freed from some of her responsibility (Lip and Ian moving out, and Debbie pushing her away) she just went overboard with no anchor. But that didn't make sense to me. She was always both a responsible adult guardian AND someone who enjoyed herself as often as she was able. Personally I'd have liked to have seen each of the kids succeed despite their screwed up parents. I did like that Fiona and Debbie at least hung out as sisters, rather than adult/child or as enemies, which had been more or less last season's approach, at least from Debs.

[dangwoodchucks]

Steve Howey doesn't have the head for that haircut, I wish he'd left it a little longer. V went a little too far with the "that was my hair" stuff, but I think what she was really upset about was how easily Svetlana could do the mothering thing, and with V's babies. Svetlana's explanation to Kev about what being bitten on the nipple while breastfeeding felt like was hilarious. Svetlana did look beautiful, and that baby was adorable.

 

Fiona's boss can leave now, I'm too bored by him to even remember his name. Look elsewhere to get laid Fiona. I know she's young and wants to have some fun, but sheesh, she's acting like an animal in heat. Can she get in trouble for tampering with her ankle monitor, even if that was her last day?

 

Didn't we spend last season watching Deb trying to attract boys/men by wearing makeup and dressing/acting older?

[fliptopbox]

I loved the scene between Sheila and Frank, when he first comes home and she tells him about the lesbian realtors. Her getting Sammi with the hose was hilarious to me. I dunno. Besides this side story liver crap I like Frank and his self righteous ranting about everything. 

[redlaces]

Fiona can definitely get into trouble for removing her ankle bracelet. Even if it is not damaged. She also totally gave Debbie her first "hit" poor girl is going to go off the rails now. I am so very sad about what is happening to Vee and Kevin. The whole incident with the Westboro  based church was fantastic. The scenes with Fiona's boss really are incredibly boring. The horrible couple at the restaurant are oh so common in restaurants. (okay, and everywhere else) Chuckie should be smaller next episode after what he left in Sheila's house. yeeesh! Svetlana has replaced Vee and almost Kevin as my favorite, along with Mickey. Frank is still Frank and I love him for that. Cock a doodle doooooo!

[scrb]

So Frank's douchebaggery is all in the service of railing against the man? His scams to pay for drugs or booze, his using of Sheila and others are all about making a stand against gentrification, which isn't even a real thing?

The writers and producers are having a despicable character make pretty little speeches. Meanwhile they along with the cast and crew are likely to patronize organic coffee shops like the one they're depicting and live in upscale neighborhoods.

Promos show they're going to shoot up the coffee shop for what, to keep the neighborhood the same and strike a blow for the blue collar residents there? After showing how dead end life is there?

Are they going to have Lip reject pursuing a professional career after college because it wouldn't be true to his roots too?

[dangwoodchucks]

I loved the scene between Sheila and Frank, when he first comes home and she tells him about the lesbian realtors. Her getting Sammi with the hose was hilarious to me. I dunno. Besides this side story liver crap I like Frank and his self righteous ranting about everything. 

 

Sheila getting Sammi with the hose was hilarious. I laughed from the first time she "accidentally" got her right up to where a soaked Sammi gave up and ran back inside her trailer. Sheila and Frank being on the same wavelength was refreshing to see, I especially liked how they ditched Sammi and ran gleefully down the street together.

 

The Dad's idea of spending one last Father's Day with his son by gathering the son's organ recipients together was quite touching. On the other hand, I think it would be very awkward, even if someone like Frank was not one of the attendees. The wife didn't seem to be too thrilled with the whole thing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved Sheila spraying Sammi with the hose, like she's disciplining a disobedient pet who just won't stay off the sofa. I was surprised when Frank told Sheila to run. Ha!

 

I agree that the donor's mom seemed really uncomfortable with the dinner. I thought more would come of that like some sort of tirade.

[india wilkes]

sammi is such a useless character

 

frank is such a useless character

 

GOD PLEASE.....can the writers just get rid of them both?!! seriously, if you are great at your craft, you can get rid of characters and still have a good show. 

 

Ian is spiraling quickly out of control. What annoys me is his family (in my opinion) need to tell Mickey that like it or not, Ian needs help. they should be more active about Ian getting help. Mickey clearly sees Ian is losing it.

 

The revenge plot to the crazy church thing was weird. You expose one guy, fine...but everyone else is still going to protest. 

[patchwork]

I'm a bit surprised that Lip and Fiona aren't doing more to help Ian. It's all new to Mickey but they know Ian needs to spend time in a hospital and get his meds sorted out. So like Fiona's plunge into irresponsibility it just seems like plot convenience rather than something that's organic to the characters. 

[RedHackle]

I thought this was a very good episode, on many different levels.  Others here have raised the point that it was very irresponsible of Fiona to take Debbie into the club; I adored and worshipped my older sister, and we had a lot of similarities to the Gallaghers growing up.  (Absentee father, drunk mother, was essentially raised by an older brother and sister.)  Once in a while my sister would take me out clubbing, not to be irresponsible but just to give me a fun night.  I totally bought Fiona here, finally noticing how fast Deb is growing up, and seeing how much pain she's been in, and wanting some quality time for just the two of them.  To her credit, she did realize at the end what a poor model she's been lately.  Also loved:

- Lip keeping up the show for his fellow hard-hats, then collapsing in exhaustion when they couldn't see. 

- Dermott McBassMouth doing exactly what I'd hoped he'd do, which is turn out to be someone working a real program, and a man who can say no to Fiona

-Svetlana being Svetlana

-Kevin cut his hair!

-the Fred Phelps preacher getting handed his ass - well played, guys!

-Sheila jerking Sammi's covers - about time. Sammi showed some decency at times when she was taking care of Frank when he was sort of dying, but she really is annoying as all hell, and has NO boundaries and it's not impossible or out of character that every single thing she did for Frank was purely to get attention and approval.

 

And  finally, while yeah, I think V went waaaay over the top on this whole thing, I kindasorta get it.  My daughter had gorgeous waist length, thick glossy hair (which she most definitely did not get from me) and the first time she cut it off I almost had a stroke.  Yes, it's her hair, but there was a teeny part of me that felt like it was the family's hair and she should have consulted us first.  Preposterous, of course, but you feel how you feel sometimes.  I don't mean I yelled at her or anything but I did tear up a little bit.  Funnily, she said the exact same thing to me that Kevin did: "it's just hair, Mom.  It grows back."

 

There were even other things about this ep I thought were great, but those are the highlights.  I really think this is the best episode in a while, maybe even ever.

Edited January 21, 2015 by RedHackle

[scrb]

The show seems to pat itself on breaking all kinds of societal taboos.

 

The thing they did to the pastor was kind of a rape.  If they really want to skewer these homophobic religious types, they should have shown the guy willingly accepting the sexual favor from one of the gay guys, showing his hypocrisy.

 

As for Sammy, if the show has as much balls as it thinks it does, they should have had Frank and Sammy go through with it last season.

 

Pussies.

[Captain I0]

The thing they did to the pastor was kind of a rape.  If they really want to skewer these homophobic religious types, they should have shown the guy willingly accepting the sexual favor from one of the gay guys, showing his hypocrisy.

 

All well and good, except that they weren't trying to shed the light on any kind of hypocrisy or "skewer" the religious types. Did you miss the part where Ian's first plan was to kill them all with guns? They were just shooting for plain old fashioned vengeance. Nothing more. They have no desires to engage in some kind of debate or political schemes. And it was a great way to accomplish that.

[scrb]

Not talking about the intent of the characters.

 

The intent of the writers, though now that I think about it, maybe they did want to depict this outrageous scene more than do social commentary, since that appears to be their MO more than anything else, to try to shock for the sake of shocking.

[RedHackle]

 

The thing they did to the pastor was kind of a rape.  If they really want to skewer these homophobic religious types, they should have shown the guy willingly accepting the sexual favor from one of the gay guys, showing his hypocrisy.

I disagree- as Ian pointed out to the 'reverend',  "what are you gonna say - that you were really trying to have sex with a teenage girl?" I could be wrong but I think Mandy may still be underage - she was a couple of years younger than Lip, I think so I think she's 17 now.  This may be the age of consent in Illinois but it's still pretty disgusting.  And quite frankly, anything that type of person gets is okay with me.  I also agree with Captain 10, this was actually a fairly clever way that Mickey came up with to keep Ian from killing that asshole.  If someone believes that it's okay to picket the funerals of soldiers and others screaming 'god hates fags', then, sorry, pretty much anything bad that happens to them is fair enough as far as I'm concerned.  If your motto is "anything I say or do is fine no matter what" then you forfeit the right to bitch when something bad happens to you.  All of the preceding, though, presumes a fictional world.  In real life, I believe in free speech, even detestable speech.  But the cool thing about fiction is that it sometimes let you indulge in fantasy, such as killing Hitler, or serving up a homophobic sexual predator creep.

 

As for the taste line that this show often jumps over - I actually stopped watching it a while back. Right at the moment when Frank used a thumbtack to stick into the arm of a baby to fake that the kid had gotten his vaccination.  My gross out point got reached and I turned it off.  But then a season or so later, I started watching again and somehow forgave the show.  So yeah, sometimes they do go too far.  Frankly, I'm glad they finally figured out that having had Frank sleep with his own daughter would have been a bridge too far again, even for the die-hards.  I think the show has figured out a pretty good balance for the most part.  We'll see if they can keep it up.

[iMonrey]

 

Kev's haircut is so much better than the rat's nest he had going on!

 

That rat's nest was clearly a wig. He's usually worn it pulled back in previous seasons; clearly Steve Howie cut his hair before this season started filming so he wore a wig for the first two episodes.

 

 

The whole incident with the Westboro  based church was fantastic.

 

I liked the storyline, but I'll have to excuse their use of "dramatic license," because the Westboro Baptist church does not have a branch in Chicago, nor anywhere else other than Topeka. Nor are there local, home-grown church groups who picket military funerals like Westboro does - that's a sickness that is unique to them. They also don't shout and yell at the funeral attendees during the service within earshot. They're awful, but they're far less intrusive.

[redlaces]

 

They also don't shout and yell at the funeral attendees during the service within earshot.

 

I have to disagree with that. I have been to several of their pickets and I have 'spoken' to Shirley and Steve (ball) Drain.. They are chanting and yelling the whole time. They are very keen on the law, seeing as a lot of them are lawyers. They show up where the the profile is high. They slime in. It has been years now since I have seen them, so I don't know what they are up to now, but back in the day, they had no issues with being loud and in your face.