S01.E03: Time And Tide

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I haven't read any of the comic books and I haven't seen any of the Marvel movies (including Captain America or Iron Man, which my friend keeps telling me I must see). I only started watching Agents of Shield out of my loyalty to the Jossverse so I have absolutely no background on any of these characters. I find this show much more interesting to watch than AoS.

[Temperance]

I haven't read any of the comic books and I haven't seen any of the Marvel movies (including Captain America or Iron Man, which my friend keeps telling me I must see). I only started watching Agents of Shield out of my loyalty to the Jossverse so I have absolutely no background on any of these characters. I find this show much more interesting to watch than AoS.

Yeah I just started watching this because it looks awesome. 

 

I didn't recognize Bridget Regan and I watch Jane the Virgin. I'm suspicious of Dottie, because the house matron liked her so much.

I agree we don't need a Mr. Carter anytime soon. I would be open to Sousa marrying Peggy, but not in the next five episodes. 

 

 

What's a radio?

It's how people in the forties listened to podcasts.

[Bruinsfan]

Add to that the fact that Angie is short for Angelica, as in “angel” and you have even more of the guardian angel vibe.

 

There was a price to pay for that though. Apparently Hayley kept missing her marks and ended up punching and hurting a ridiculous amount of stuntmen and actors.

This reminds me a lot of Grace Jones working on the set of Conan the Destroyer.

[Shanna]

Another possibility for Angie is that she could be Tony Starks mother. It woul explain why shes so important without her being a bad guy. All the gags about Howies love life make wonder if we won't see her here. Plus her rapid fire chatterbox speech kinda sounds like Tony to me.

I wondered the same thing. I dot want her to be secretly evil or spyish or anything, but Starks girlfriend? That I could work with. I love Lyndsey and am enjoying her friendship with Peggy. I could see Peggy bringing her into original shield or introducing her to stark.

I am still loving the show. I don't think it would be annoying for Peggy to get together with the obvious choice of Sousa - I can't see her ever interested in cmm. The fun will be seeing their friendship develop but I agree they don't have to rush into dating.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Shanna

[tv echo]

I was talking about this episode with my sister who also watches Agent Carter, and she's convinced that the mysterious person who killed Agent Krzeminski is Dottie (Bridget Regan) and that Dottie is a Leviathan assassin.  I agree that that's very possible..

 

She also has this theory that Jarvis' wife (heard, but not seen) was actually killed in the war and that who we're hearing is a robot with some AI programming that was built by Howard Stark - like a precursor to Tony Stark's mechanical Jarvis.  I think this is less likely, since Edwin Jarvis said his wife is still alive... but it's a very interesting theory.  I suggested the alternative theory that Anna was indeed killed in the war but Jarvis is still hallucinating that he hears her because her death was so horrific and he's suffering from some form of PTSD.

Edited January 16, 2015 by tv echo

[kennyab]

She also has this theory that Jarvis' wife (heard, but not seen) was actually killed in the war and that who we're hearing is a robot with some AI programming that was built by Howard Stark - like a precursor to Tony Stark's mechanical Jarvis.  I think this is less likely, since Edwin Jarvis said his wife is still alive... but it's a very interesting theory.  I suggested the alternative theory that Anna was indeed killed in the war but Jarvis is still hallucinating that he hears her because her death was so horrific and he's suffering from some form of PTSD.

 

The SSR guys had done their homework on Jarvis, and Thompson was the one who brought up Anna when threatening Jarvis with deportation. If she were dead, they would have known it before the interrogation.

[shapeshifter]

...Still loving the look of the show -- the fashion, hair, makeup, sets. The details are so well done that I sometimes get caught up looking and have to rewind because I missed some dialogue.

Absolute perfection. And don't forget the music!

[Danny Franks]

I rewatched the episode this morning, and figured I should say something about it.

 

Still loving it. It's getting better, as it gets more convoluted and mysterious. Hayley Atwell holds the whole thing down beautifully, and the scene with all the girls at breakfast just showed how her presence can dominate a shot. Yes, it was deliberately focused on her, but I found myself barely even noticing any of the other, very pretty, girls at the table because I was too busy watching Peggy.

 

Also, when Jarvis opened the door and she was standing there in the black outfit with her hair tied back? Oof. Funny how such a minor change to a period hairstyle can take her from beautiful to breathtaking. Love that she got to hold her own in a fight with a much bigger guy, who only got the upper hand by using a metal pipe. And I love that Jarvis isn't some secret badass who can get her out of jams. I worried, when Stark foisted him onto Peggy, that he would end up being ex-SIS or something. But nope, he's just a fastidious butler, which means Peggy always gets to be the badass.

 

Honestly, I think the worst character in the show who isn't explicitly evil is Ms. Fry. Looking out for the girls? Sure. Nice excuse. What she's doing is avidly minding other peoples' business, and taking glee from being able to punish them for their misdeeds. She loved making a big song and dance about kicking that poor girl out on the street. Typical joyless bully, who never had any fun and thinks it's disgusting that other people want to. Hope she gets a bullet in the head.

 

Not sure why Thompson is catching fire for his interrogation technique in this episode. He never hit Jarvis, never threatened to hit him, he just used a little bit of physical intimidation and a whole lot of psychological intimidation. I can see why Dooley said it was a good job. He had Jarvis close to cracking, based on nothing. He's an ass, sure, but I don't think anything he did in this episode was awful, or even out of line. Not being happy about Peggy blowing his work was reasonable, under the circumstances.

 

From the other cops' point of view, she was a complete dolt, and displayed a stupidity and lack of awareness about important manly things like interrogation and investigative work, which just confirmed their beliefs that she shouldn't be there. It was a harsh blow for her to take, and I admire her for having the guts to do it. Though I'm not sure the reveal of the stolen car report letting Jarvis walk free stands up to scrutiny, because it was still filed after the implosion. Thompson already pointed out that that would be the best way of shaking suspicions.

 

Glad that Jarvis's wife is proved to be real (despite some increasingly tin-foil hat theories to the contrary), because it's a nice story and I'm glad he's having his 'happy ending' already. Though with all Howard's antics, he might end up dying of stress before he's fifty. I'd like to meet her, but I don't mind if we don't.

 

I've not seen Bridget Regan before, but man, she's a big girl, isn't she? Towering over the other three in the scene. And she's so totally a bad guy that I'm already looking forward to the inevitable fight scene with Peggy. It's going to be amazing.

 

I think Angie is just a normal girl who wants to be Peggy's friend, and I just hope that doesn't put her in the firing line. But her being revealed as a super-secret, proto-SHIELD agent would be pretty great.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Boundary]

I think Angie is just a normal girl who wants to be Peggy's friend, and I just hope that doesn't put her in the firing line. 

 

Fonseca is a good actress and it's likely Angie will have more to do. But I can't shake the feeling that she's just going to be an ordinary citizen and Peggy's friend, which means she's going in the firing line ...

[romantic idiot]

I haven't read any of the comic books and I haven't seen any of the Marvel movies (including Captain America or Iron Man, which my friend keeps telling me I must see). I only started watching Agents of Shield out of my loyalty to the Jossverse so I have absolutely no background on any of these characters. I find this show much more interesting to watch than AoS.

 

Well as a Jossverse fan you should watch The Avengers at least :) It's the main reason I went to watch it. 

 

Re: Sousa, I like that he is competent too and I would like to see more of him. I will call foul on a romantic hookup between CMM and PC. That would ruin the show for me. 

[Izeinwinter]

Well, as love interests go, the scenes with Angie are really easy to read that way too. That final scene in the diner was just sorcery - Which, I suppose really puts Angie in the cross hairs.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is 70 years between the show and The Winter Soldier - That's enough time for a lot of history. For all we know, she manages to become a widow four times over. 

[Sandman]

She also has this theory that Jarvis' wife (heard, but not seen) was actually killed in the war and that who we're hearing is a robot with some AI programming that was built by Howard Stark - like a precursor to Tony Stark's mechanical Jarvis.

 

"So, Mr. Jarvis, is your wife Conservative, Reform, or Ortho -- "

"Robot -- er, Reform!"

[Bruinsfan]

Honestly, I think the worst character in the show who isn't explicitly evil is Ms. Fry. Looking out for the girls? Sure. Nice excuse. What she's doing is avidly minding other peoples' business, and taking glee from being able to punish them for their misdeeds. She loved making a big song and dance about kicking that poor girl out on the street. Typical joyless bully, who never had any fun and thinks it's disgusting that other people want to. Hope she gets a bullet in the head.

That's not an unlikely turn of events. If Dottie is an assassin, the person keeping close tabs on everyone in the building could easily run afoul of her. Likewise for any men attempting to break in and ambush Carter.

[Ceindreadh]

Honestly, I think the worst character in the show who isn't explicitly evil is Ms. Fry. Looking out for the girls? Sure. Nice excuse. What she's doing is avidly minding other peoples' business, and taking glee from being able to punish them for their misdeeds. She loved making a big song and dance about kicking that poor girl out on the street. Typical joyless bully, who never had any fun and thinks it's disgusting that other people want to. Hope she gets a bullet in the head.

 

 

I honestly didn't have all that much sympathy for the girl who got kicked out.  The rules were (presumably) made clear to her before she moved in and - ridiculous as they may seem in this day and age - she would have agreed to abide by them.  She broke the rules and had to face the consequences.  Maybe Ms. Fry took an unseemly amount of glee from catching somebody breaking the rules, but it's her job to enforce them and if the girls don't like it well maybe they need to find a place with less stringent house rules. 

[Danny Franks]

I honestly didn't have all that much sympathy for the girl who got kicked out.  The rules were (presumably) made clear to her before she moved in and - ridiculous as they may seem in this day and age - she would have agreed to abide by them.  She broke the rules and had to face the consequences.  Maybe Ms. Fry took an unseemly amount of glee from catching somebody breaking the rules, but it's her job to enforce them and if the girls don't like it well maybe they need to find a place with less stringent house rules. 

 

It's not that I had much sympathy for the girl (though given that she was thrown out summarily in front of everyone, and apparently had no warning at all, it's impossible for me to not have some sympathy), it's that I saw Ms. Fry's actions as evidence of someone who enjoys nothing more than imposing her own rules on people, and punishing them severely if they don't live up to her standards. I'll bet she was deeply involved in the Temperance Movement, in her day.

 

I think Steve said something about people like that to Loki in The Avengers.

[Kel Varnsen]

I liked how Peggy kicked ass at hand to hand fighting with that guy on the boat. I remember from my comics reading days that training with Cap has pretty much always led to people having awesome fighting skills (Hawkeye, Rick Jones, Etc.). So if she picked up on any of that (and then expanded on it after his death, plus her skills from before she met Steve) she should be a pretty good fighter. 

 

I did have to laugh about Peggy talking about how New York is one of the last cities where sanitary sewers also handle storm water run off (in 1946) tons of cities still have combined sewer systems. The one I live in is having huge problems with that, because like Peggy said, when you have a huge storm, everything in those pipes has to bypass the treatment plant and gets dumped.

[that one guy]

I did have to laugh about Peggy talking about how New York is one of the last cities where sanitary sewers also handle storm water run off (in 1946) tons of cities still have combined sewer systems.

 

I scoffed as well. Chicago's sewer system still works like this, which means a big storm can cause sewage to get washed out into Lake Michigan, and then nobody's allowed to go swimming for days.  I think what they meant to say is that New York in 1946 still channeled storm runoff through the sewer into the East River, which I believe was true. Unfortunately, everybody mixes the runoff with the sewage, which means all the rainwater has to go through the sewage treatment plant, which is incredibly wasteful. If you had a completely separate system for storm water, it would be clean and wouldn't have to be treated.

[Julia]

I agree, I find myself... not entirely hating the House Boss Lady. The character is strict and traditional, but the actress (to me anyway) manages to convey a sense of sincerity. She comes across as wanting to run the house as she genuinely thinks is best for the girls, rather than just being a dick for no reason.

As much as the landlady is a censorious asshole, they lived back in the day when it was practically impossible to get a rapist, especially an acquaintance rapist, convicted because the assumption was that "good girls" didn't get raped. The rules about keeping men away from private areas were a big reason women tried really hard to get into those hotels, because it sent the signal that they weren't available in a way that made them look less like prey.

Obviously you have to be in a badly screwed up situation for that to look like a positive option, but that's kind of Peggy's life at this point.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Julia

[Rick Kitchen]

I attended college in the late 60s/early 70s, and men were still not allowed in women's dorms.

[Sharpie66]

I was in an all female dorm at a Jesuit college in the '80s, and we had to check in any guests and kick out any guys by midnight.

[Ottis]

The story was fast paced and engaging,

 

 

I have found it to be fairly slow. Not much happens each episode. Agent Carter is treated like a secretary, she outsmarts the men without them realizing it, she receives a mysterious tidbit from Stark or his butler, she pursues a bad guy who gets away. In between she deals with women who are more like the women her fellow agents see her as. That said, I enjoy the atmosphere they have created of the era. I think they cheat a bit by having her act as if the sensibilities regarding women in society from 2015 should be common in the 1940s. That only works because we are in 2015. If we were of that era, most of us wouldn't see it.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Ottis

[Sharpie66]

I think they cheat a bit by having her act as if the sensibilities regarding women in society from 2015 should be common in the 1940s. That only works because we are in 2015. If we were of that era, most of us wouldn't see it.

 

I think what happened in the immediate post-war era, as the troops were being demobilized and sent home, was that the women who had achieved a remarkable level of acceptance in the workplace were all expected to retreat back to the home immediately. That's a big shift in thinking for an entire gender to have to accept, and pressured those who didn't want to accept it to fit into the "new reality". And it wasn't just the bosses that were willing to have women on the payroll from 1941 to 1945 but wanted them gone immediately afterward, but also the government, who actively recruited women to work in the plants and other places. Heck, there was even government-provided daycare for those workers!!

 

So working women isn't just a 2015 concept, but was very much a 1944 one, as well.

[Sandman]

Yeah, I think Peggy Carter works as post-war woman; she's unusual, because she's had such extraordinary experiences; she's somewhat ahead of her time but she doesn't me strike as an anachronism.

[Julia]

For comparison, you might want to take a look at The Bletchley Circle, a PBS miniseries about women who were codebreakers at Bletchley Park during the war and were forced back into being full-time housewives when it was over.

[ChelseaNH]

I think they cheat a bit by having her act as if the sensibilities regarding women in society from 2015 should be common in the 1940s.

 

I'm not seeing how her actions are dictated by the sensibilities of others.  Unless you saying she's frustrated not to be recognized for her accomplishments.  I can't think of any period in time when competent, capable women have been happy to be dismissed by others.

[Ottis]

So working women isn't just a 2015 concept, but was very much a 1944 one, as well.

 

 

I understand the historical context and am familiar with that era. But as you stated, this reatively short-term change - during a 4ish-year period due to WWII - was both recent, short-lived and unusual. To expect the entire society to change because of that, especially when a huge chunk of the gender who was "dominant" then was gone to war and never actually experieced the change - wouldn't be realistic. On top of that, we see examples of other women in the show who seem to have maintained their former "station" even through this unusual change. So clearly not everyone is aware or in favor of the same things that Agent Carter herself is (and that we favor in 2015).

 

From what I have seen so far, the show views all of this through today's lens as certain empowering behaviors/characters good, everyone else bad - which appeals to us today, but isn't very fair to that time. Agent Carter experences this within the show, and we can see it through her actions and reactions. That's fair. The show goes beyond that, going to great lengths to show her male co-workers as ignorant at best and chauvenistic or worse. There is no male figure in the show who can empathize with Peggy (even Souza does so more as a fellow outcast than anything else), and because no one does they come off the worse for it. Which is the aforementioned cheating I noted.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Ottis

[Julia]

I understand the historical context and am familiar with that era. But as you stated, this reatively short-term change - during a 4ish-year period due to WWII - was both recent, short-lived and unusual. To expect the entire society to change because of that, especially when a huge chunk of the gender who was "dominant" then was gone to war and never actually experieced the change - wouldn't be realistic. On top of that, we see examples of other women in the show who seem to have maintained their former "station" even through this unusual change. So clearly not everyone is aware or in favor of the same things that Agent Carter herself is (and that we favor in 2015).

 

From what I have seen so far, the show views all of this through today's lens as certain empowering behaviors/characters good, everyone else bad - which appeals to us today, but isn't very fair to that time. Agent Carter experences this within the show, and we can see it through her actions and reactions. That's fair. The show goes beyond that, going to great lengths to show her male co-workers as ignorant at best and chauvenistic or worse. There is no male figure in the show who can empathize with Peggy (even Souza does so more as a fellow outcast than anything else), and because no one does they come off the worse for it. Which is the aforementioned cheating I noted.

 

There's no male figure on the show who can empathize with Souza, by that reasoning, and Peggy does so more as a fellow outcast. Is it unfair for them to portray war-related disabilities?

[Sandman]

Wouldn't it be worse for Souza to be perfectly enlightened, without any of the blinkers that his male colleagues have? Growth has to start somewhere. And, who knows, even Thompson may not remain forever the sexist lunkhead who's a little iffy on the alphabet. Jarvis comes closest to treating Carter as a peer, setting aside his "perfect butler" deference. I don't think the show is thereby arguing that the English are necessarily more advanced than the Americans of the time period. 

[Shanna]

From what I have seen so far, the show views all of this through today's lens as certain empowering behaviors/characters good, everyone else bad - which appeals to us today, but isn't very fair to that time. Agent Carter experences this within the show, and we can see it through her actions and reactions. That's fair.

I think what you are complaining about is mainly because we are seeing it through Peggy's eyes. If this show were about agent Thompson adjusting to this new world post war it would be a different show but it isn't.

I think we will be seeing more through Sousa maybe. We are only a few episodes in and there hasn't really been time to get into everything.

[AzureOwl]

I've not seen Bridget Regan before, but man, she's a big girl, isn't she? Towering over the other three in the scene. And she's so totally a bad guy that I'm already looking forward to the inevitable fight scene with Peggy. It's going to be amazing.

According to the internet, Bridget Regan is 5' 9'' (175 cm), Hayley Atwell is 5' 7'' (170 cm) and Lyndsy Fonseca is 5' 5'' (165 cm). Of course, heels throw make these figures sort of pointless, but the way they made sure to have all of them in the same frame draws attention to the height difference. I don't think it's coincidental.

Edited January 27, 2015 by AzureOwl

[FurryFury]

Absolutely off topic, but thank you for translating the numbers into the metric system. I'm used to translating pounds into kilograms, inches into centimeters and miles into kilometers, but feet PLUS inches are beyond me (without outside help). It's so refreshing to not have to guess.

[Actionmage]

The show goes beyond that, going to great lengths to show her male co-workers as ignorant at best and chauvenistic or worse. There is no male figure in the show who can empathize with Peggy (even Souza does so more as a fellow outcast than anything else), and because no one does they come off the worse for it.

 

As Shanna noted, this is only the third episode aired. There are five more to go.

 

I tuned into this show because it was explicitly not a hard-and-fast documentary of the era. Implosion bombs that look like the most fabulous perfume bottles? Yes, please. ( Also, for real, one of those bottles would rock, even not lit-up and ready to cause havoc! Good find, Props!)

 

Lastly, heaven help us all if not every man is gallant, understanding, or respectful on TV. In a fictional universe. Also, as Shanna noted, this is a female-centered show. The situations aren't completely whole cloth fiction. If you want to see "nicer" versions of guys from the era, there are scores of movies and TV shows to choose from.

[Zuleikha]

I'm behind and stuck waiting for the fourth episode to be released to non-cable subscribers. I am loving this show so far. From the reviews, I was worried that it would be a very male take on sexism with Agent Carter portrayed as a unicorn and the male co-workers portrayed as bumbling buffoons who modern day men could comfortably distance themselves from.

 

But it feels very real to me. Her co-workers are products of their time, but they're competent enough and not over-the-top in their meanness. I wish there was at least one other woman shown working for SSR (because Peggy would have been a rarity but not a unicorn), but at least we're getting other working women in the form of Angie, the landlady, and Dottie-the-possible-assassin. Jarvis is awesome, and his emotion when Thompson was threatening Anna was amazing.

 

I would like to see more of Sousa and Carter as colleagues, though. Things are already blowing up for Carter with her double agentness, and this is only ep 3. I think she's going to need another ally at the SSR soon. If Sousa really is Mr. Carter, I think he also should be a recruit for future S.H.I.E.L.D. 

[Chas411]

'Now I gotta go call his wife'

A beat.

'I'll call his girlfriend'.

Despite the death, that line cracked me up.

[ChelseaNH]

Teamwork!

[Hecate7]

I honestly didn't have all that much sympathy for the girl who got kicked out.  The rules were (presumably) made clear to her before she moved in and - ridiculous as they may seem in this day and age - she would have agreed to abide by them.  She broke the rules and had to face the consequences.  Maybe Ms. Fry took an unseemly amount of glee from catching somebody breaking the rules, but it's her job to enforce them and if the girls don't like it well maybe they need to find a place with less stringent house rules. 

 

 

Unlikely in that decade, but sure, whatever works. Girls were expected to live at home with their parents. Boarding houses were the most proper option for single girls with careers who did not live with family, and most boarding houses had the same rules. No men, strict curfews, and a landlady who took a very personal interest in the lives of the tenants.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Hecate7

[Julia]

In fairness, Ms. Fry was also trying to make sure her tenants didn't get raped by unsupervised men wandering the halls.

[Hecate7]

I was in an all female dorm at a Jesuit college in the '80s, and we had to check in any guests and kick out any guys by midnight.

 

So did we. So guys did their raping in the daylight hours. What did they care if they were signed in? That just went to show we had invited them in.

In fairness, Ms. Fry was also trying to make sure her tenants didn't get raped by unsupervised men wandering the halls.

 

She also has a reputation of her own to protect. A building full of females in those days would quickly develop a reputation as a brothel, if not for women like Ms. Fry.