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Pet Peeves: Aka Things That Make You Go "Gah!"


Message added by Mod-Tigerkatze,

Your Pet Peeves are your Pet Peeves and you're welcome to express them here. However, that does not mean that you can use this topic to go after your fellow posters; being annoyed by something they say or do is not a Pet Peeve.

If there's something you need clarification on, please remember: it's always best to address a fellow poster directly; don't talk about what they said, talk to them. Politely, of course! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and should be treated with respect. (If need be, check out the how to have healthy debates guidelines for more).

While we're happy to grant the leniency that was requested about allowing discussions to go beyond Pet Peeves, please keep in mind that this is still the Pet Peeves topic. Non-pet peeves discussions should be kept brief, be related to a pet peeve and if a fellow poster suggests the discussion may be taken to Chit Chat or otherwise tries to course-correct the topic, we ask that you don't dismiss them. They may have a point.

Message added by Mod-Tigerkatze,
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8 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Ladies! Go to the gynecologist every year! I skipped a few years because reasons and when I finally did go caught precancerous cells that were looking sketchy.

Good advice and to be honest I do go every year including breast scans. Friends think I'm paranoid going so regularly especially at only 24. But despite the inconvenience and embarrassment I would rather have peace of mind than find out I had issues later in life unchecked.

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Ladies, (bilgistic and TattleTeeny, specifically) this is your reminder to go for your check ups! During my last annual they found suspicious cervical cells and I got the awesome pleasure of having to have a colposcopy (don't look that one up if you're squeamish)--basically a pap smear on steroids. It was suuuper fun and luckily it was nothing serious, but it was still good to catch those types of things early.

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6 minutes ago, emma675 said:

Ladies, (bilgistic and TattleTeeny, specifically) this is your reminder to go for your check ups! During my last annual they found suspicious cervical cells and I got the awesome pleasure of having to have a colposcopy (don't look that one up if you're squeamish)--basically a pap smear on steroids. It was suuuper fun and luckily it was nothing serious, but it was still good to catch those types of things early.

Oh yea, those are the best!thing!ever! That plus a biopsy is better than Disneyland! Plus, I'm allergic to whatever solution they use so instead of burning it feels like I'm on fire.

My doc is so awesome that I may fly back to CA just to see her.

I skipped because I couldn't afford it, even with insurance.. Once the ACA kicked in and the initial 'well woman' exam became free I went. The subsequent exams required a copay but my doc is awesome and worked with me on it. 

For those of you putting it off because you feel fine, I had no symptoms, no health issues, nothing. 

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3 hours ago, backformore said:

You know how hospitals have everything computerized so that all your providers can communicate?  

My doctor ordered a mammogram. He sent the order electronically to the mammography department, but they didn't get it. I show up for my appointment, they don't have an order. And no, they said they can't just call his office to get it. Same building, same hospital, and there are computers on every desk, hooked up to the hospital network. But I had to go up the elevator to the doctors office, so they can print out the order from the computer, with an electronic signature, and then I had to walk it back down to the department.

I love computers. But people get in the way of getting things done efficiently. I've had the exact same thing happen with radiology in the past. The computers are hooked up to a network. Sending info from one department to another would be a major reason for having the network. But they don't want to use that.

And, the background information they collect is not updated. A long time ago, I was taking medication . It was on my medical record. Now, every time I see a doctor, the first question is if I still take that medicine. I can say, no, I took it ten years ago for a short time. It's no longer relevant, but they never remove it from the list of "current medications."

That just happened to me at 2 doctors offices. 3 years ago I had arthroscopic knee surgery. They gave me Percocet. I maybe took 1. It's still listed as a prescription I'm taking on all of my records. My gyno had a lot of old information this year because he went with a new group and the record systems didn't integrate right. 

Edited by AuntieL
Fixed typo
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May I introduce a new peeve--and not likely a unique one. Ticket prices! Holy hell, if college me had known what I'd be paying for Misfits tickets today, college me would have chosen a different major! Of course, college me could sometimes not even scrape together, like, $8 to see a band at a regular old bar, so maybe college me would have also been happy to know that I'd eventually have a few bucks to spare (though college me would also laugh at old me for wanting seats and not general admission). Also, who knew that Misfits tickets would be the cost the same as that pricy Neil Diamond, haha!

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@TattleTeeny Ticket prices here in the UK, are a complete fucking  rip-off! (not often I swear, but)

Music concerts generally, and major festivals in particular (such as Glastonbury) can cost a small fortune, especially if you're a family. But the problem is that most fans want spectaculars and not just to listen to music, and that costs! But then the managers, agents, promoters, theatre operators all want their cut. And then you have the scalpers and the bots that instantly snap up hundreds of tickets from the moment they're put on general sale, and then sold on through third-party music promoters at anything up to a 100% markup, depending on the draw power of the artist.

On top of all that, there's the ambiguous "booking fee", which is some kind of over-priced admin charge for some Joey to click a few keys on a keyboard to confirm you booking. The annoying thing is that if you're going with 4 people for example, they will charge you 4 separate fees for the same party.

And then, there's a postal charge if you want the tickets posted via snail mail. And again you get charged per ticket even if they all go in the same envelope!

Finally, when you actually go to the concert, you have to pay extortionate fees to park your car; use the toilets, buy food and drinks etc.

And yet......

time and time again, demand outstrips supply. It seems for some  people - who can afford it at all costs - don't give a damn about all of the above. They want to see their favourite band, and won't be put off with over-inflated ticket prices. Ergo: all the usual suspects listed above, will say in their defence "Hey, so and so concert was a a complete sell out. So what's your issue?"

It's just a shame that those who can least afford it are being priced out by those that can. Capitalism in action

 

 

<rant over, lol> 

Edited by Zola
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8 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

May I introduce a new peeve--and not likely a unique one. Ticket prices! Holy hell, if college me had known what I'd be paying for Misfits tickets today, college me would have chosen a different major! Of course, college me could sometimes not even scrape together, like, $8 to see a band at a regular old bar, so maybe college me would have also been happy to know that I'd eventually have a few bucks to spare (though college me would also laugh at old me for wanting seats and not general admission). Also, who knew that Misfits tickets would be the cost the same as that pricy Neil Diamond, haha!

A friend of mine made a real good point about ticket prices - back in the day artists would make money off albums and album sales. Now, with everyone streaming and physical album sales declining their money is made off of concerts.

My concert peeve is concerts held in old venues not designed for concerts. I typically sit low because the sound is better but there is no reason people who sit in the nosebleeds shouldn't have the same sound experience.

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Honestly, I wish the fees would just be blended in (especially that one for a $2.00 for the privilege of printing out your own tickets! What? It's my paper and toner, you asses!) . Yes, it would make the ticket itself more, but somehow it seems less upsetting. And here's some first-word problems right here: I had to [gasp!] decide between Britney and the Misfits! Also, what a weird combination of options! I am a diverse lady, haha! In the end, though, I couldn't pass up the original Misfits, man. No way!

Edited by TattleTeeny
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10 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Honestly, I wish the fees would just be blended in (especially that one for a $2.00 for the privilege of printing out your own tickets! What? It's my paper and toner, you asses!) . Yes, it would make the ticket itself more, but somehow it seems less upsetting. And here's some first-word problems right here: I had to [gasp!] decide between Britney and the Misfits! Also, what a weird combination of options! I am a diverse lady, haha! In the end, though, I couldn't pass up the original Misfits, man. No way!

See, that's how I feel about tipping.  Just charge me the extra it takes to pay the employees.  It doesn't bother me so much with waitstaff, although I still wish it was included, but other stuff, like pretty much anybody else you would tip.

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5 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

And here's some first-word problems right here: I had to [gasp!] decide between Britney and the Misfits!

OK, don't get me wrong. I like Britney Spears and find her songs are catchy, but I have no clue why people are paying top dollar to see her live. This is not questioning your musical tastes, its actually genuine amazement.  All the concert footage I've seen post-meltdown consists of her prancing back and forth on stage or doing very minimal and basic dance steps while lip-syncing. I know a lot of it has to do with the medication she's on, so I'm not criticizing her for it, I just don't understand what  exactly people are paying to see.

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8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

See, that's how I feel about tipping.  Just charge me the extra it takes to pay the employees.  It doesn't bother me so much with waitstaff, although I still wish it was included, but other stuff, like pretty much anybody else you would tip.

on the subject of tipping, I quite often tip the takeaway guy whom delivers my Indian curry or Chinese stir fry. Tipping these guys is quite common here, and yet I have no real reason why we do it? I mean, why are takeaway drivers so special to warrant giving them a tip? We don't tip the postman, or the refuse guys, or the parcel delivery guy, or the supermarket guy. And yet it has always been a tradition (in England at least) to tip the takeaway guy!

I'm not against tipping him, but it's just a weird paradox that we don't tip anyone else that offers a service to my door.

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Not only am I not sure either, but  I was not young when she broke! Her songs make me happy and I just want to get a look at that big spectacle of a stage show that's she got going on. I once actually considered a trip to Vegas for her residency, and I hate Vegas. I don't know why I do the things I do--you guys should know this by now, haha!

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18 hours ago, backformore said:

And, the background information they collect is not updated. A long time ago, I was taking medication . It was on my medical record. Now, every time I see a doctor, the first question is if I still take that medicine. I can say, no, I took it ten years ago for a short time. It's no longer relevant, but they never remove it from the list of "current medications."

Same here, I took a prescription for anxiety for about a year and then contacted my doctor to wean off of it. I haven't filled that script in over 5 years, but every time I go in for my physical my Dr asks me if I'm still taking it and I have to remind her that she was the one who prescribed the step down meds to come off of it. Somehow those aren't listed in my records but they still have me taking Effexor. Whatever.

Edited by GoodieGirl
misspelling
14 minutes ago, Zola said:

on the subject of tipping, I quite often tip the takeaway guy whom delivers my Indian curry or Chinese stir fry. Tipping these guys is quite common here, and yet I have no real reason why we do it? I mean, why are takeaway drivers so special to warrant giving them a tip? We don't tip the postman, or the refuse guys, or the parcel delivery guy, or the supermarket guy. And yet it has always been a tradition (in England at least) to tip the takeaway guy!

I'm not against tipping him, but it's just a weird paradox that we don't tip anyone else that offers a service to my door.

I don't know how it works in England, but in the US takeout drives have to provide their own car and pay for their own gas.  It's really not worth it to them without the tip.  Postal workers and garbage collectors both make more money and are provided with a vehicle and fuel.

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Just now, Katy M said:

I don't know how it works in England, but in the US takeout drives have to provide their own car and pay for their own gas.  It's really not worth it to them without the tip.  Postal workers and garbage collectors both make more money and are provided with a vehicle and fuel.

you make a great and logical point! Quite often the takeaway guys arrive in their own cars or bikes. Kind of makes sense now.

 

 

<Jeez, what a dumb broad I am sometimes.>

32 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know how it works in England, but in the US takeout drives have to provide their own car and pay for their own gas.  It's really not worth it to them without the tip.  Postal workers and garbage collectors both make more money and are provided with a vehicle and fuel.

Also, it's illegal in the U.S. to tip postal workers, even at Christmas. They are not allowed to accept money. I believe they can accept cookies, however. Now, whether they want to or not may depend on who's on their route.

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1 minute ago, auntlada said:

They are not allowed to accept money. I believe they can accept cookies, however. Now, whether they want to or not may depend on who's on their route.

Which is funny, because on TV shows they're always getting Christmas tips and every year those stupid "how much should you tip x at Christmas" comes out and they always have postal workers on the list.

3 hours ago, Zola said:

on the subject of tipping, I quite often tip the takeaway guy whom delivers my Indian curry or Chinese stir fry. Tipping these guys is quite common here, and yet I have no real reason why we do it? I mean, why are takeaway drivers so special to warrant giving them a tip? We don't tip the postman, or the refuse guys, or the parcel delivery guy, or the supermarket guy. And yet it has always been a tradition (in England at least) to tip the takeaway guy!

I'm not against tipping him, but it's just a weird paradox that we don't tip anyone else that offers a service to my door.

My sister tips her postal carrier.  she gives him a couple hundred bucks at Christmas time.  The postman is a federal employee, and it is illegal for him to accept tips (other than small gifts, like a box of candy).  but she insists EVERYONE does it.  I tired to explain to her, that if that was the case, postal workers would be really cleaning up -  think about how many houses are on each route.  But her response is that she has to make up for the cheapskates who do not tip.   (Like me - I don't tip people for doing their jobs) 

  She also tips anyone who does any work at her house.   furnace cleaner, plumber, house painter, window installer, person who delivers and installs an appliance - she insists that they all get tips.   even a self-employed handyperson.  I don't get it. 

Edited by backformore
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5 minutes ago, backformore said:

My sister tips her postal carrier.  she gives him a couple hundred bucks at Christmas time.  The postman is a federal employee, and it is illegal for him to accept tips (other than small gifts, like a box of candy).  but she insists EVERYONE does it.  I tired to explain to her, that if that was the case, postal workers would be really cleaning up -  think about how many houses are on each route.  But her response is that she has to make up for the cheapskates who do not tip.   (Like me - I don't tip people for doing their jobs) 

  She also tips anyone who does any work at her house.   furnace guy, plumber, house painter, window installer, guy who delivers and installs an appliance - she insists that they all get tips.   even a self-employed handyman.  I don't get it. 

Can I visit your sister and sort out any IT problems she may have? lol

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2 hours ago, auntlada said:

Also, it's illegal in the U.S. to tip postal workers, even at Christmas. They are not allowed to accept money. I believe they can accept cookies, however. Now, whether they want to or not may depend on who's on their route.

My mom always tips the postman at Christmas.  My grandmother used to as well.  I had no idea it was illegal, I've always felt guilty for not doing it but I'm poor.

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19 minutes ago, backformore said:

My sister tips her postal carrier.  she gives him a couple hundred bucks at Christmas time.  The postman is a federal employee, and it is illegal for him to accept tips (other than small gifts, like a box of candy).  but she insists EVERYONE does it.  I tired to explain to her, that if that was the case, postal workers would be really cleaning up -  think about how many houses are on each route.  But her response is that she has to make up for the cheapskates who do not tip.   (Like me - I don't tip people for doing their jobs) 

  She also tips anyone who does any work at her house.   furnace guy, plumber, house painter, window installer, guy who delivers and installs an appliance - she insists that they all get tips.   even a self-employed handyman.  I don't get it. 

I think he is required to turn it in. If he doesn't and gets caught, he can be fired. Ask her how she'll feel about getting him fired.

You can also ask her if she would jump off a cliff if everyone else was doing it.

Edited by auntlada
Being a smartaleck.
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13 minutes ago, Zola said:

Can I visit your sister and sort out any IT problems she may have? lol

I tease her about it all the time. I think she's crazy for doing this, she cannot afford it.  she thinks I'm being cheap if I don't tip everyone.   

 

2 minutes ago, partofme said:

My mom always tips the postman at Christmas.  My grandmother used to as well.  I had no idea it was illegal, I've always felt guilty for not doing it but I'm poor.

Well, it's not illegal to GIVE the postal worker a tip.  It's illegal for the postal worker to take it.  (I keep changing the labels to gender-neutral ones, sorry it's another pet peeve) 

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21 minutes ago, backformore said:

 

  She also tips anyone who does any work at her house.   furnace guy, plumber, house painter, window installer, guy who delivers and installs an appliance - she insists that they all get tips.   even a self-employed handyman.  I don't get it. 

My mom tips all these people as well.  

3 minutes ago, backformore said:

 

 

Well, it's not illegal to GIVE the postal worker a tip.  It's illegal for the postal worker to take it.  (I keep changing the labels to gender-neutral ones, sorry it's another pet peeve) 

They definitely keep it.  My mom always gets a thank you note and a candy cane from hers. 

On 1/30/2018 at 11:18 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

I now say something like "25" whenever anyone pulls that shit.  If they say, "No, really, how old do you think I am," I'll say, "Okay, 30?"  They've never pressed beyond that.

 

I've overthought this for years.  And I no longer say, "Thank you" because it just seems wrong.  I just say, "Yeah, I know," or "Believe it." 

Like everyone else on the planet, I look young for my age.  (They're also all excellent drivers.)  And it does get remarked on, but I'm quite sure that generally, it just has to do with genes, which I obviously can't take credit for.

It also no doubt helps that I never smoked, and never drank a lot, and wasn't ever a drug addict.  But those were just my basic lifestyle choices, and I don't think even that is something that deserves congratulations, especially in the "you look young" situation.  I also think it helps that I never had kids, and nobody congratulates people for that.

And then you add in the fact that, as you pointed out, trauma and hardships can really age a person, and I'm lucky that I haven't had to endure very much of that.  In private, I will attribute some of that "luck" to choices I made, but even then, the choices I was able to make probably had something to do with intelligence, and sometimes maturity, and not everybody has that raw material to work with.  Again, it's not something I feel I can or should take credit for.

Mr. Outlier has a car that attracts attention from certain car buffs.  I'm the main one who drives it, and people will come up and say, "Hey, I love your car."  And I would reflexively say, "Thank you."  But it's not like I built it or anything, and in fact, I didn't even buy it--he did.  So now I try to mumble something like, "You like seeing one out in the wild?"  I'm still working on that one.

But it doesn't stop there.  There are some things that I naturally do well, and it's awkward for me to accept compliments for them because they are just things that come easily to me for some reason.  It's not even like raw talent in tennis, and then a million hours spent practicing and getting really good, which would be an achievement.  It's just something I'm wired to do well.  Again, genes, for which I take no credit.

I've wondered what this sort of thing does to pretty people.  They're complimented for their entire lives on something they had nothing to do with, other than to not fall face-down in a fire.  That must mess with their minds.

 

It's a local story where I am, and on the news today, they said the health department is investigating, and something about the feds.  The meat and seafood department in this store was ordered closed recently because of live roaches.  Not that live roaches has anything to do with delivering unwrapped slabs of meat in shopping carts, but it does lead me to think that the latter is not in accordance with generally accepted meat practices.

Might help if you think you are thanking people for noticing how good your genes are or how good Mr. O's taste in cars is.

On 1/31/2018 at 12:01 AM, StatisticalOutlier said:

Going with the "thank you" is definitely the path of least resistance, and won't get you in trouble.  But I just don't think it's right.  Lead by example!  Think "zipper merge"! 

No, really no. The "thank you" is gratefulness for noticing something fine. No by default, but as a way to enhance their day. I'm sure it's rare enough to notice nothing good outside of their usual sphere, the least we can do is thank them for it, and hopefully that will encourage them to keep on doing it if it makes them feel good about themselves 

18 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I seem to have "abnormal" cells every other exam, and then they are fine when they recheck.

Not using that as an excuse. I have no excuse.

Had these too, but luckily my gyno was a smart women, who used the time she had me talk about my life while doing the exam for more than just time filler. So she (correctly) diagnosed that the conjunction of new job, moving overseas and other stuff might explain the abnormality, and recommended I checked again 6 months later. By which time everything was very normal (one of the few times I like "normal", heh).

After moving and a couple of not super satisfying gynos, I found one who didn't use stirrups - alleluia! Since then, I'm left wondering why anyone does, when there really is no need. 

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My Gripe for the Day!

How some people love to shoehorn controversial politics into completely unrelated local/personal issues on news forums (not necessarily this site)

For example, late last year the refuse collectors in my area of England went on strike for several weeks over pay and conditions. Yet some people on a UK news-forum came wading in saying "Oh well, blame Brexit for that! It's all to do with Brexit. They only have themselves to blame!" (even though it really didn't)

Another couple of examples: there's been a small fall in house prices in the area; or the price of bread has gone up by more than inflation; there was also one article saying there were fewer robin red-breast birds this year compared to last - but typically people posted on certain forums, instantly pointing the blame-game finger at our very own Prime Minister, and/or Brexit. 

Trolls and/or bitter & twisted individuals no doubt, but people really do need to take off their blinkers once in awhile. Yes, blame Brexit for a poor economy or higher unemployment. But blaming it on the lack of robins in the area, is just too hilarious to think about seriously!

Edited by Zola
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On 2/1/2018 at 7:19 AM, theredhead77 said:

A friend of mine made a real good point about ticket prices - back in the day artists would make money off albums and album sales. Now, with everyone streaming and physical album sales declining their money is made off of concerts.

My concert peeve is concerts held in old venues not designed for concerts. I typically sit low because the sound is better but there is no reason people who sit in the nosebleeds shouldn't have the same sound experience.

Concerts have always been the bigger money-makers. The only artists who made any serious money off album sales had high profiles, and even these artists made more from concerts. The music studios would fuck everyone else over with creative accounting. This has been documented a number of times.

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I've mentioned this in the Commercials threads but it is really starting to be my pettest of all peeves: Commercials for prescription drugs! The terrible descriptions of various illness' and the horrific side effects. They want you to ask your doctors about these drugs but they never mention that most of them cost hundreds of dollars a month. And speaking of drug prices, maybe they could lower some of the costs if they didn't spend millions on advertising! I will never listen to them again, I just hit mute. So fuck off drug companies, I'll never hear about your wares again.

Edited by peacheslatour
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19 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I've mentioned this in the Commercials threads but it is really starting to be my pettest of all peeves: Commercials for prescription drugs! The terrible descriptions of various illness' and the horrific side effects. They want you to ask your doctors about these drugs but they never mention that most of them cost hundreds of dollars a month. And speaking of drug prices, maybe they could lower some of the costs if they didn't spend millions on advertising! I will never listen to them again, I just hit mute. So fuck off drug companies, I'll never hear about your wares again.

The side effect that always makes my brain pay attention for a half second is "may cause fatal bleeding".

Fatal bleeding. That sounds bad. I don't think I want that.

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23 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I've mentioned this in the Commercials threads but it is really starting to be my pettest of all peeves: Commercials for prescription drugs! The terrible descriptions of various illness' and the horrific side effects. They want you to ask your doctors about these drugs but they never mention that most of them cost hundreds of dollars a month. And speaking of drug prices, maybe they could lower some of the costs if they didn't spend millions on advertising! I will never listen to them again, I just hit mute. So fuck off drug companies, I'll never hear about your wares again.

I agree. The purpose of advertising is to sell more product.  but, in the case of prescription drugs is the only people who should be taking them are those that need them.  Doctors should know who that is.  Now, I'm all for researching your own conditions and treatments and not necessarily blindly listening to your doctors, but we don't need drug commercials.

I remember when Nexium first came out, they had commercials that basically just said "ask your doctor about the purple pill."  My grandmother said, "I'm going to ask my doctor about that."  I said, "You don't even know what it's for."  the commercial just gave the name of the pill and called it the "purple pill" like this somehow makes it an awesome cure all and said to ask your doctor about it.  Now, my grandmother had a conscientious doctor who was not going to go around prescribing her a bunch of crap that she didn't need, but I think she probably asked him about every pill she saw advertised and most likely drove him bonkers.

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On 1/31/2018 at 3:47 PM, emma675 said:

Ladies, (bilgistic and TattleTeeny, specifically) this is your reminder to go for your check ups! During my last annual they found suspicious cervical cells and I got the awesome pleasure of having to have a colposcopy (don't look that one up if you're squeamish)--basically a pap smear on steroids. It was suuuper fun and luckily it was nothing serious, but it was still good to catch those types of things early.

When I was a young lovely a nice lady gyno asked to take a pic of my impossible cervix.  It may grace the pages of some obscure medical journal, but has probably been drooled over by who knows how many creeps who were hiding in the bushes adjacent to Wreck Beach, snapping unauthorized Polaroids.

 

11 hours ago, MrSmith said:

Concerts have always been the bigger money-makers. The only artists who made any serious money off album sales had high profiles, and even these artists made more from concerts. The music studios would fuck everyone else over with creative accounting. This has been documented a number of times.

Led Zeppelin played a FREE noontime concert at my high school.  I cannot tell a lie.  Eric Hamber High - look it up.

Edited by walnutqueen
vodka???
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Message added by Mod-Tigerkatze,

Your Pet Peeves are your Pet Peeves and you're welcome to express them here. However, that does not mean that you can use this topic to go after your fellow posters; being annoyed by something they say or do is not a Pet Peeve.

If there's something you need clarification on, please remember: it's always best to address a fellow poster directly; don't talk about what they said, talk to them. Politely, of course! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and should be treated with respect. (If need be, check out the how to have healthy debates guidelines for more).

While we're happy to grant the leniency that was requested about allowing discussions to go beyond Pet Peeves, please keep in mind that this is still the Pet Peeves topic. Non-pet peeves discussions should be kept brief, be related to a pet peeve and if a fellow poster suggests the discussion may be taken to Chit Chat or otherwise tries to course-correct the topic, we ask that you don't dismiss them. They may have a point.

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