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SueB
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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I googled Hip Replacement Recovery Time--first thing I got says most able to walk within same day or next day...and a full recovery resuming all normal activities takes 3 to 6 weeks.

So from this seems probable Misha won't miss any filming, most likely.

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1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Misha is in Chicago today for hip replacement surgery. I'm guessing that means he is done filming for the series.

I hope he has a successful surgery and a good recovery.

I wasn't aware of this, so thanks for bringing this here. He is very young for this - was it an injury or something congenital?

I've known several people who have had this procedure and it always seems to be one extreme or the other in terms of recovery, super easy/quick, or long and painful. He seems in pretty good shape otherwise, and has a great attitude, so I am hopeful for the former for Misha.

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12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wasn't aware of this, so thanks for bringing this here. He is very young for this - was it an injury or something congenital?

It's not the years, it's the mileage. ☺️  He had a pretty "adventurous" childhood, probably without a lot of medical care.  

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Got some further info--some fans said Misha had earlier told a bunch that he had been planning to do this in December...so this is old news to some of them and Misha has been planning this for a while.

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58 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Got some further info--some fans said Misha had earlier told a bunch that he had been planning to do this in December...so this is old news to some of them and Misha has been planning this for a while.

He talked about it at the last convention. I just thought he would have waited until the show wrapped up filming. Maybe the pain got to be too much?

Edited by Casseiopeia
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15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

He talked about it at the last convention. I just thought he would have waited until the show wrapped up filming. Maybe the pain got to be too much?

Maybe but according to this one fan--they knew Misha had already planned to do the surgery during December and this announcement of doing the surgery this December wasn't a surprise timing-wise.  Makes sense to do it when have 3 weeks off because of filming hiatus.

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2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Maybe but according to this one fan--they knew Misha had already planned to do the surgery during December and this announcement of doing the surgery this December wasn't a surprise timing-wise.  Makes sense to do it when have 3 weeks off because of filming hiatus.

Even with a big success rate, it's still a major procedure and outcomes are never guaranteed. So unless he really isn't involved in filming from episode 14, it's a risk. Maybe it was just too painful (understandably) for him to put it off any longer, or maybe he has something in line already post-SPN, otherwise it seems risky to just assume he'll be fully functional by the end of the Christmas break.

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2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Even with a big success rate, it's still a major procedure and outcomes are never guaranteed. So unless he really isn't involved in filming from episode 14, it's a risk. Maybe it was just too painful (understandably) for him to put it off any longer, or maybe he has something in line already post-SPN, otherwise it seems risky to just assume he'll be fully functional by the end of the Christmas break.

Yeah you never know but at least from what i've researched full functioning recovery takes about 3 to 6 weeks...and i'm sure Misha got a top doctor in Chi Town.  And also he'll be able to walk most likely after just one day it is said. my best guess is Misha won't miss much at all...and even if it's not all smooth Misha should imo be able to move around enough to film  even if he needs to lay off some fighting or running.  That said he also be hardly affected at all.  But yes you never know.

Well, we will see soon enough.  My best guess at this point is Cas will end up in his normal amount of episodes...maybe one less or so at most.  Kind of telling Misha also answered a question about Cas's ending and the ending--implied in that was he fully expects to be involved.  Best laid plans of Mice and Men and all that...but we'll see.  I'm optimistic at thos point.

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23 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I had no idea. I don’t remember him talking about it at Jaxcon. 

I only saw comments from fans. I didn't watch the panel. I know at the impromptu gathering in Chicago some of the fans already knew about the upcoming hip surgery.

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20 hours ago, Jakes said:

Maybe but according to this one fan--they knew Misha had already planned to do the surgery during December and this announcement of doing the surgery this December wasn't a surprise timing-wise.  Makes sense to do it when have 3 weeks off because of filming hiatus.

It's entirely possible the timing is because that's when the surgeon could do it.

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Is ANDREW DABB going ruin the ending of the show for a big slice of fans by killing CAS off in the finale?  YES. 

I think it is entirely stupid to kill the boys or Cas off after all the suffering and crap they took over a decade.   And would stain the legacy of DABB for sure and make him dirt for the chunk of fans who really like Cas.  And this is from someone who likes what DABB has done for the most part--which I know makes me a minority on this particular site--lol!

Anyway I think Dean and Sam are safe from death with their version of peace BUT Cas is toast.  Why do I say this?--because IN CHICAGO MISHA LARGELY GAVE AWAY CAS'S SAD FATE...ALMOST CERTAINLY DEATH.

One of the peeps(Nightsky) from Winchester Family Business was at Misha's Chicago fan event and reported on the event and even got some video of it.

I watched the video multiple times(it's on their site) to get Misha's quote on what happens to Cas and here it is:

The question to Misha asked by Nightsky, "What are your thoughts on Castiel's ending on SUPERNATURAL?"  Misha answers, "It will be funny...everyone will laugh--that's not true!  I have an ideal version of how Cas, ah...ends--I took 2 Tylenol PM last night(which I never do) and could not go to sleep.  I was sort of tripping on Tylenol PM, playing out sort of my ideal version of Castiel's final moments on the show...and I was crying(I was crying!) or I was having a reaction to the Tylenol PM--one of the 2.  BUT I think I know where the story is going  and I think it will be really cool and really REALLY sad."

Misha emphasized the second REALLY big time--indicating Cas's end is really sad.  Misha also thinks it is cool--and he always wanted Cas to die in heroic fashion.  What else would make Cas's end so super sad?  Dying and saying goodbye to the Winchesters I think clearly.

I mean he could lose Jack to death and that would devastate Cas as would  losing Dean forever but I don't see that being probable.  Cas is by FAR imo the most probable to have the sad death--one that made Misha cry thinking about it.  

Maybe this isn't totally set since the script hasn't been written yet by the way Misha was talking about it seems pretty sure and I think Misha said "Cas Death" clearly even without saying the word itself.   Maybe DABB will wise up and not do it.  Very, very likely Cas dies though.

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Well, they've been pretty much ignoring the deal Cas made with the Empty Entity last season--that as soon as he's really happy, he'll die.  They can go a lot of ways with that (or just pretend it never happened, just like all the "cosmic consequences" threatened and dropped over the years.)  And the Empty hardly seems like a horrible ending--so you sleep for eternity.  *shrugs*  Jack and Chuck seem to be able to wake whoever they want.  

Maybe Cas will become the new EE.  They seem to have a "tag--you're it" mentality about killing off supposedly powerful beings. 

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33 minutes ago, Jakes said:

And would stain the legacy of DABB for sure and make him dirt for the chunk of fans who really like Cas. 

If Dabb gave Cas a heroic ending and he ended up the top Arch Angel under new God Jack they would love it, I think. 

Cas being sad doesn't necessarily mean Cas is dead.  Sam and or Dean could be dead, Jack could be be dead. 

Based on the set up right now, it feels like Dean is marked for death.  He's just so tired and seems to be at the end of he is rope.  It feels like Death is the only way for him to get real rest. 

If Eileen survives the next ep, I feel like she's going to be Sam's ending.   If she dies than I feel like Sam will be the one to sacrifice  himself.

But I think Team Free will will be split up at the end, and I think that is what Jensen didn't like.

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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dabb gave Cas a heroic ending and he ended up the top Arch Angel under new God Jack they would love it, I think. 

Cas being sad doesn't necessarily mean Cas is dead.  Sam and or Dean could be dead, Jack could be be dead. 

Based on the set up right now, it feels like Dean is marked for death.  He's just so tired and seems to be at the end of he is rope.  It feels like Death is the only way for him to get real rest. 

If Eileen survives the next ep, I feel like she's going to be Sam's ending.   If she dies than I feel like Sam will be the one to sacrifice  himself.

But I think Team Free will will be split up at the end, and I think that is what Jensen didn't like.

I don't think Eileen will die again, not after they just brought her back. She might just leave, realizing rhe Winchesters are a level of dangerous to be around that is just too much.

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Well guys I hope i'm wrong because that would be a crappy Cas ending.  I will admit what the exact sad ending is open to guesswork.   BUT Misha was talking not just about his ideal ending but also where he knows the story is going.

And he said it's really, really sad(not that Cas was just sad)--and really cool.  That to me is a clue because Misha always had wanted Cas with heroic death...he would think that cool while also being sad.  

I mean could it be Team Free Will is split up and Cas is Heaven's sheriff like in the end of season 5...maybe.  But right now i'm expecting a Cas death...hope i'm wrong and Dabb doesn't blow it.

About Dean, still don't see him being screwed over or killed in the end--think he will be fine. 

37 minutes ago, Jakes said:

 

 

37 minutes ago, Jakes said:

 

 

 

Edited by Jakes
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On 12/19/2019 at 7:13 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I don't think Eileen will die again, not after they just brought her back. She might just leave, realizing rhe Winchesters are a level of dangerous to be around that is just too much.

Slowing down the promo for the next ep there is a shot of what looks like a dead Eileen.  I'm hoping its just part of Sam's vision.  But it wouldn't surprise me if its suddenly Sam's turn to be depressed again.

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42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Slowing down the promo for the next ep there is a shot of what looks like a dead Eileen.  I'm hoping its just part of Sam's vision.  But it wouldn't surprise me if its suddenly Sam's turn to be depressed again.

Probably vision. They got some flack for killing off a female, disabled character in a way that brutally used her disability against her. Now they just brought her back to kill her again, especially for Sam's pain? That would be like super-fridging.

But she is likely getting real death scare and seeing how she got a fragile second chance (and doesn't have "yay, Queen of hell" to look forward to), she might want to stay away from, lets face it, the Deathchesters.

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5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Probably vision. They got some flack for killing off a female, disabled character in a way that brutally used her disability against her. Now they just brought her back to kill her again, especially for Sam's pain? That would be like super-fridging.

I hope you are right, but not sure we can count on the writers to be smart enough to figure this out.  They have brought a female back  just to kill them off, I just hope you're right.  I hate that they are killing this show.

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I’ll admit, if anyone’s going to die in the finale, I’d prefer it to be Cas instead of Sam or Dean so those potential spoilers don’t bother me. But I’m also one of those who doesn’t want to see Sam and Dean separating in the end and would prefer an ending showing they’ll continue to fight evil but at a more manageable level in the sense that they get over the threats from these overarching religious figures and go back to being able to handle simple ghosts and monsters. I dislike the idea of some cheesy “happily ever after” of Sam settling down w/Eileen too so at the moment I don’t have high hopes for where they’re going with that. I agree that I don’t think they’d kill her again but I’d like to either see her walk away or for her appearance to have been some kind of long con from God/Chuck and not the win Sam thought it was. I’d find the con thing more interesting than her just being brought back as some boring love interest end game. I feel like I’m going to be like Jensen because the two endings I’d see him struggling with is the brothers separating and/or Dean dying, both of which I’d hate too so I’m assuming the worst for now.

Edited by desiresrisked
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I have long expected Dean to die and Sam to return to a normal life so I guess that idea doesn't bother me. For years and years Dean has alluded to that time and time again. Cas I'm not sure and I think I could be good with whatever they do. I can literally get on board with all but one thing - Sam continues hunting and Dean just decides to retire. It would be too against the grain of the entire show.

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14 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I have long expected Dean to die and Sam to return to a normal life so I guess that idea doesn't bother me. For years and years Dean has alluded to that time and time again. Cas I'm not sure and I think I could be good with whatever they do. I can literally get on board with all but one thing - Sam continues hunting and Dean just decides to retire. It would be too against the grain of the entire show.

Depending on how Dean goes out, I'd be very happy with the death scenario. Make it heroic snd count for something, don't make it all about Sam and I will probably like it. 

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15 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I have long expected Dean to die and Sam to return to a normal life so I guess that idea doesn't bother me. For years and years Dean has alluded to that time and time again. Cas I'm not sure and I think I could be good with whatever they do. I can literally get on board with all but one thing - Sam continues hunting and Dean just decides to retire. It would be too against the grain of the entire show.

I could actually see a version of Dean's Michael-induced ideal from Nihilism, only with Castiel and Sam dead (or 'alive' in Heaven) as a result of the showdown with Chuck, not out there hunting without him. Dean with his bar and his wealth of knowledge (fuck all the writers who take this away from him) as the new Bobby for the hunting community. Bobby wasn't actively hunting, but nobody ever doubted for a minute that he was a badass. Dean could have the same role.

I've said since Regarding Dean that I believe he'll die, and I still do - except for the fact that Jensen keeps mentioning the future, whether it be a mini-series or movie or even a reboot. There is just no world in which any of that works without Dean. Of course death means nothing, but I seriously wouldn't watch it if they killed him (again) only to resurrect him (again) down the road.

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1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could actually see a version of Dean's Michael-induced ideal from Nihilism, only with Castiel and Sam dead (or 'alive' in Heaven) as a result of the showdown with Chuck, not out there hunting without him. Dean with his bar and his wealth of knowledge (fuck all the writers who take this away from him) as the new Bobby for the hunting community. Bobby wasn't actively hunting, but nobody ever doubted for a minute that he was a badass. Dean could have the same role.

Could go either way. They specifically introduced the idea of an ex hunter with a bar back this Season but then used the episode to have Dean reject the idea of retiring.

Unless they do something super-cheesy at the end like saying "all demons and all monsters are now gone, no need for any hunters ever anymore". 

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Yeah with Cas not saying him being killed would bother EVERYONE like a few on here mentioned--no one is universally loved, not even Dean or Sam because we have a split fandom for sure.  Just that Cas along with Dean and Sam all have big chunk of fans who love them and that killing any of these 3 off would alienate a big chunk of fans against ANDREW DABB forever--and would be a totally crappy idea to do to characters that all have suffered so much crap well over a decade.  It would be a kick in the face to the characters and their fans.  That said think Dean and Sam are safe--while looks like from what Misha said...Cas certainly seems like toast.

Edited by Jakes
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On 12/21/2019 at 10:49 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Probably vision. They got some flack for killing off a female, disabled character in a way that brutally used her disability against her. Now they just brought her back to kill her again, especially for Sam's pain? That would be like super-fridging.

But she is likely getting real death scare and seeing how she got a fragile second chance (and doesn't have "yay, Queen of hell" to look forward to), she might want to stay away from, lets face it, the Deathchesters.

There is no way to put this except the blunt way. I wouldn't care if they killed Eileen again. Why? Because she is a stupid person. I mean, oh some random person calls you, so you go running off to save her while there are much BIGGER things happening at the bunker? She deserves whatever happens to her. Sorry- they've sucked the sympathy right out of me anymore.

 

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Could go either way. They specifically introduced the idea of an ex hunter with a bar back this Season but then used the episode to have Dean reject the idea of retiring.

Unless they do something super-cheesy at the end like saying "all demons and all monsters are now gone, no need for any hunters ever anymore". 

I've wondered if that is the end game. No more rift between earth and hell. No need for hunters. Monsters are only in books.

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9 minutes ago, Jakes said:

So press release for episode 9 says Dean and Cas are working together--obviously in Purgatory.   Yeah, I thought so...some were saying Cas wasn't in this episode.  That made no sense.

Alas, I wouldn't put it past Berens to have them "working together" largely off screen. 

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4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Alas, I wouldn't put it past Berens to have them "working together" largely off screen. 

I mean I guess it is possible--though I expect half the episode will be Dean and Cas in Purgatory.

Edited by Jakes
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Was watching Most Holy Man on TNT which was written by both Dabb and Singer--and it struck me the final convo between Dean and Sam is giving us the end of the series.  In the end they get the vial of blood from the holy man AND Dean was happy about but Sam was down and asked Dean basically are we ever going free of monsters.

Mind you this was written by both show runners in season 13 and we also have gotten this wish from the brothers at other times too.  I see that we get free of monsters which gives the story finality and gives the boys their version of peace.

Some think this may be lame or cheesy but I see that outcome is a good end--ending all the bad and freeing the boys to have peace and a life.  And if they ever want to do a movie--something could go wrong and they have to be called into action to fix things again.

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The new spoiler tumblr gauged that Misha didn`t film for this episode so either they got it very wrong or he filmed little. Of course Dean and Cas could also get split in Purgatory because we never had that before. Or Dean doesn`t go after all and only Cas does.

It is incredibly hard to tell if the clips from the trailer are genuinely him in Purgatory or just weird visions  Chuck shows Sam. Or if Chuck shows Sam what happens in real-time. Though he said to Becky he couldn`t "see" the Winchesters anymore.

Apparently Misha was also seen on the casino set. And of course we have Dean`s "prayer" to Cas (which I dread being penned by Berens). That`s unlikely to happen when Cas is right next to him. With Sam being in danger, Dean`s prayer could easily be a call for help. But that would hinge on Dean knowing about Sam being in danger and either being there at the Casino set himself. 

Then again, what good would it do to call for Cas` help against Chuck. I know the latter`s power level is all over the place but he can certainly smite an angel like it was nothing. 

I reckon this is gonna be the episode where somehow Chuck becomes fully-powered again. Which Dabb of course spoiled months ago.  

 

Quote

Mind you this was written by both show runners in season 13 and we also have gotten this wish from the brothers at other times too.  I see that we get free of monsters which gives the story finality and gives the boys their version of peace.

Some think this may be lame or cheesy but I see that outcome is a good end--ending all the bad and freeing the boys to have peace and a life.  And if they ever want to do a movie--something could go wrong and they have to be called into action to fix things again.

Could be right. Which I would consider a super-lame ending. I like happy endings in general but making this world now "lollipop"-land with no more monsters and the guys settling down sounds dreadfully boring. At least for Dean. What would he do, open a bar for real? He hasn`t gotten a love interest insert this Season so he would be kind of third-wheeling it at the end.

Granted, it would still heavily depends on Dean`s role in the final heroics to me but I would roll my eyes so hard.

Edited by Aeryn13
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18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The new spoiler tumblr gauged that Misha didn`t film for this episode so either they got it very wrong or he filmed little. Of course Dean and Cas could also get split in Purgatory because we never had that before. Or Dean doesn`t go after all and only Cas does.

It is incredibly hard to tell if the clips from the trailer are genuinely him in Purgatory or just weird visions  Chuck shows Sam. Or if Chuck shows Sam what happens in real-time. Though he said to Becky he couldn`t "see" the Winchesters anymore.

Apparently Misha was also seen on the casino set. And of course we have Dean`s "prayer" to Cas (which I dread being penned by Berens). That`s unlikely to happen when Cas is right next to him. With Sam being in danger, Dean`s prayer could easily be a call for help. But that would hinge on Dean knowing about Sam being in danger and either being there at the Casino set himself. 

Then again, what good would it do to call for Cas` help against Chuck. I know the latter`s power level is all over the place but he can certainly smite an angel like it was nothing. 

I reckon this is gonna be the episode where somehow Chuck becomes fully-powered again. Which Dabb of course spoiled months ago.  

 

Could be right. Which I would consider a super-lame ending. I like happy endings in general but making this world now "lollipop"-land with no more monsters and the guys settling down sounds dreadfully boring. At least for Dean. What would he do, open a bar for real? He hasn`t gotten a love interest insert this Season so he would be kind of third-wheeling it at the end.

Granted, it would still heavily depends on Dean`s role in the final heroics to me but I would roll my eyes so hard.

Well the press release says Dean and Cas are working together--so that's probably more accurate than a spoiler tumblr--we'll see.  Maybe they are together to begin with but separate when Dean prays to Cas.  I suspect Cas will be in the episode his normal amount.  

You are probably right about Chuck getting full powered--seems about the right time for that.  About being Monster-Free I personally don't see that as lolli-pop land--life still won't be all puppy dogs and cuddles but the boys can finally be free of the bloody battles and death...just have a life with all its bumps and bruises but without all the overwhelming evil.

I do agree Dean needs a good ending in this scenario which I think is quite possible--but too soon to say what that end would be...so can't say if I won't like it or not.   

 

PS--what is the name of the new spoiler Tumblr?

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5 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Well the press release says Dean and Cas are working together--so that's probably more accurate than a spoiler tumblr--we'll see.  Maybe they are together to begin with but separate when Dean prays to Cas.  I suspect Cas will be in the episode his normal amount.  

You are probably right about Chuck getting full powered--seems about the right time for that.  About being Monster-Free I personally don't see that as lolli-pop land--life still won't be all puppy dogs and cuddles but the boys can finally be free of the bloody battles and death...just have a life with all its bumps and bruises but without all the overwhelming evil.

I do agree Dean needs a good ending in this scenario which I think is quite possible--but too soon to say what that end would be...so can't say if I won't like it or not.   

 

PS--what is the name of the new spoiler Tumblr?

No, no, since Cas is mentioned in the press release, he obviously is in the episode, I was just wondering by how much the spoiler tumblr  (I think it`s "bunnymcbunniester", btw) was wrong on the amount of time he filmed.

As for Dean`s ending, they will not do Destiel in any way, shape or form, I know that much. I think he would just be "there" at the end and that would bug me. It seems so meh and directionless. 

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1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

No, no, since Cas is mentioned in the press release, he obviously is in the episode, I was just wondering by how much the spoiler tumblr  (I think it`s "bunnymcbunniester", btw) was wrong on the amount of time he filmed.

As for Dean`s ending, they will not do Destiel in any way, shape or form, I know that much. I think he would just be "there" at the end and that would bug me. It seems so meh and directionless. 

I'm no Destiel fan(nothing against it either) so I wasn't expecting that--with regard to Dean's direction...lets hope he gets a good one.

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15.10 (from KSite)

“The Heroes’ Journey” is the title of the Thursday, January 23 episode of Supernatural, and while we don’t have any photos yet, we do have a description courtesy of The CW. Here’s the write-up; hopefully we’ll have some photos soon. When that happens, this post will be updated.

Quote

YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE UNTIL IT’S GONE – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) hit the road to help an old friend, but it appears that their luck may have finally run out and they are the ones who may be in need of rescue. John Showalter directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1510). Original Airdate 1/23/2020.

Jensen mentioned this one in DC.  Dean gets cavities and Sam has a cold.  It's a comedy episode where everything goes un-cool.

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17 hours ago, SueB said:

15.10 (from KSite)

“The Heroes’ Journey” is the title of the Thursday, January 23 episode of Supernatural, and while we don’t have any photos yet, we do have a description courtesy of The CW. Here’s the write-up; hopefully we’ll have some photos soon. When that happens, this post will be updated.

Jensen mentioned this one in DC.  Dean gets cavities and Sam has a cold.  It's a comedy episode where everything goes un-cool.

I wonder who the old friend is or who rescues them...

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15 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

According to his Instagram, Misha is on set. So I guess he didn’t miss any shooting due to the hip surgery after all. 

Yeah, I didn't think he would miss any days--very cool!

Edited by Jakes
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My problem is how they never have the big bad be the big bad from the beginning of the season. 

Last season, Michael.  No wait...it's God.

Also God as the big bad just isn't landing for me.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I love that they used Drowning. There's a lot to take apart in this one. Somebody (a 'she' is dead (per Jody) but I think it being Eileen is a fake-out.

Drowning is a strong song.  Will have to watch it on large screen as the small screen makes it easy to miss stuff.  Not thrilled that they gone back to separating the brothers for the battle with Oh Bad God. 

Wonder how much is to try to mislead us?

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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Somebody (a 'she' is dead (per Jody) but I think it being Eileen is a fake-out.

I don't think it's Eileen--Jody seemed way too upset.  I wonder if they're killing off Claire, since she's moved on to bigger and better things and probably wouldn't be available even if they did get a spinoff.  OTOH, it looks like Kaia is back, so maybe she's toast?  

It also looks like we'll get at least a few Purgatory scenes; and Cas is sitting next to a box of Borax.  Supplies to take with them to Purgatory?   

 

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Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

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