Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, he might have asked them to let him do the line, and they might have agreed, and then cut it later.  It absolutely could have been a dig, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was fired.  Now that he's no longer in their employ, there's nothing keeping him from making comments about TPTB.  It might have been the number one reason why he wanted to leave.  I honestly don't think he had issues with Jensen or Jared, or they with him.  I would assume it was more along the lines of creative differences.  Mark's been around a lot, and he's starred in a number of different shows.  I'm sure he thinks he'll just move on to the next thing.  And I'm sure there was also some agreement about not saying too much so as not to ruin the mystery of who would survive and who wouldn't.  But with the Cas news out of the bag so quickly, that plan sort of fell apart.

I wasn't trying to argue that Mark was fired, only that whatever the reason for it, the parting of the ways doesn't seem amicable. I would be more than surprised if there were any problem with/over the Js - I'd have to hear it from one of their own mouths before I'd believe it. But there is some reason for the complete radio silence by everyone except Michaels. We'll probably never know why, but it's bizarre on the face of it for people who have worked together for 8+ years.

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wasn't trying to argue that Mark was fired, only that whatever the reason for it, the parting of the ways doesn't seem amicable. I would be more than surprised if there were any problem with/over the Js - I'd have to hear it from one of their own mouths before I'd believe it. But there is some reason for the complete radio silence by everyone except Michaels. We'll probably never know why, but it's bizarre on the face of it for people who have worked together for 8+ years.

I absolutely agree with you.  I know Mark can be a bit quirky, so I honestly don't know what to make of it.  But with the mass killings at the end of the season, they sort of painted themselves into a corner, I think.  Had only Mark been the one to die, I would like to think they could have given him a proper send off.  He's never said anything publicly to diss SPN that I am aware of, so the show runners could certainly have been more outwardly gracious toward him, if only to make themselves look better than they do now.  If Mark is truly going to the Phoenix con, then I have to think we'll at least hear some tidbits of what might have happened.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

Chaos FTW

That's Purgatory!

At least purgatory seems like chaos to me from what we saw of it.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm kind of getting a contract negotiation breakdown vibe.

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

At least purgatory seems like chaos to me from what we saw of it.

Eh I guess, but it was so outdoorsy and it seemed like there was no one to talk to. So like, chaos, but without the novelty value.

The moral of this story is that I just like earth. Give me lots of earth stories plz, SPN. ;)

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm kind of getting a contract negotiation breakdown vibe.

I wonder if other cast members haven't finished their negotiations yet. That might make this an even stickier wicket for them.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's Purgatory!

At least purgatory seems like chaos to me from what we saw of it.

Purgatory was nothing but chaos. Monsters killing monsters. Angels and humans being pursued by monsters in a place not meant for them. Vampires, humans and angels as allies and brothers in arms?!!  MADNESS!

Edited May 27, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/supergirl/news/a829351/supergirl-losing-a-major-full-time-character/

 

I dont watch Supergirl, BUT from what I can tell this is how you treat the change of status for a main character. Not the utter silence poor Mark Sheppard has received. 

[SueB]

I'm not happy with how TPTB have handled his exit.  

I think Mark was happy to go with class but I could EASILY see Mark snapping at Jim Michaels.  Jims 'everything is happy' 'tude is so not Mark.  

As for how it all went down -- no clue.  I just know as fans I wanted more closure. 

[7kstar]

Michaels tweet looks like a poor coverup and Mark isn't willing to sell his fans short.  He's free to speak his mind.  Don't know we'll ever get the real story at least for now, but TPTB have something to answer for. 

Have no problem with choosing to have Crowley's story come to an end since it wasn't going anywhere anyway, but sounds like Mark made some requests that weren't honored so he's done and moving on.  That's what I would guess with what little I've seen.

[Wayward Son]

Indeed. I am most disappointed by the radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha about the whole thing. I can to an extent see Misha keeping his mouth shut due to a desire to stay on the right side of management. He is only a series regular like Mark and could just as easily be fired. However, what are management going to do if Jared or Jensen chose to write a simple "thanks mark for all the years working with us! Best of luck in future" type tweet? Fire them? As if! The show needs J2 to survive and a fear of management isn't a proper excuse for their arguably rude behaviour IMO. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Indeed. I am most disappointed by the radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha about the whole thing. I can to an extent see Misha keeping his mouth shut due to a desire to stay on the right side of management. He is only a series regular like Mark and could just as easily be fired. However, what are management going to do if Jared or Jensen chose to write a simple "thanks mark for all the years working with us! Best of luck in future" type tweet? Fire them? As if! The show needs J2 to survive and a fear of management isn't a proper excuse for their arguably rude behaviour IMO. 

I could be snarky and say something about how the PTB are already not writing for Jensen so there isn't anything new they could really do to him if he spoke up a little. Jared on the other hand has more to lose getting them mad at him. JMO. Actually, I'm assuming they spoke to Mark privately and I'm upset at Dabb, not J2M. I think if J2M said anything on Twitter, the fan meltdown in their timelines would be epic and just make things worse than they are. The fans wouldn't rip J2M much I don't think but there would be an avalanche coming at Dabb and Company. 

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Indeed. I am most disappointed by the radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha about the whole thing. I can to an extent see Misha keeping his mouth shut due to a desire to stay on the right side of management. He is only a series regular like Mark and could just as easily be fired. However, what are management going to do if Jared or Jensen chose to write a simple "thanks mark for all the years working with us! Best of luck in future" type tweet? Fire them? As if! The show needs J2 to survive and a fear of management isn't a proper excuse for their arguably rude behaviour IMO. 

Fire them? No.  Fine them?  Very possibly.  Depends on the non-disclosure statements in their contract.  Once Jared made his 'mistake', Misha could have called and got permission for what to say.  

And because the 'mistake' is dubious, chain rattling by TPTB to fine them might have come.  OR the three at JIBCON were prepared to risk a fine for Misha but not for Mark.  Or there's no fines whatsoever but they have some OTHER reason why they think silence is best.  

I'd be surprised if we EVER heard what is going on.  But I trust that the boys like and respect Mark and have expressed that to him.  

Mark is not likely to ask for their help on anything and more likely to ask them to keep out of it.  And that's IF there is anything 'there' beyond a bit of a SM bitch slap of Michaels.  

For me, Crowley has always been an awesome character and in the past few years it's been more about his relationship with the boys.  The dialog has, IMO, brilliant.  And I will miss him.  But at this point I don't want him to do shitty things (like giving Ketch a Hell-Hound).  So, going out on self-sacrifice works for me.  

What would be funny to me:  demons showing up to see Sam and Dean while trying to find their boss.  And then the random 'Hell is hell' until Asmodious comes off the bench to make it a real threat again. 

[Wayward Son]

I think people are misunderstanding me, or perhaps I'm misunderstanding others in which case I apologise. It has been announced by Mark himself, Jim Michaels and several news sites that Mark Sheppard will not be returning to the series as a regular next year. Since that news has already been broke I don't see how a tweet from them that basically says "it's been nice working with you! Good luck with future projects" could be seen as breaking a non-disclosure agreement. They are only responding to news that has already been broken by Mark and a high up figure on the show (Jim Michaels). 

I should be clear I'm talking about a simple tweet that's along the lines of "you've been great to work with and I'll miss you". I'm not talking about them making tweets that dish the dirt on what exactly happened behind the scenes, or that somehow expresses the opinion the show runners were wrong to axe him, if he has indeed been axed. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Indeed. I am most disappointed by the radio silence from Jensen, Jared and Misha about the whole thing. I can to an extent see Misha keeping his mouth shut due to a desire to stay on the right side of management. He is only a series regular like Mark and could just as easily be fired. However, what are management going to do if Jared or Jensen chose to write a simple "thanks mark for all the years working with us! Best of luck in future" type tweet? Fire them? As if! The show needs J2 to survive and a fear of management isn't a proper excuse for their arguably rude behaviour IMO. 

I agree with others in that I'm sure Jensen, Jared and Misha have already spoken with Mark.  I believe there was genuine respect and affection there, so I'm sure they haven't just ignored him.  Plus, this went down weeks or months ago I'm assuming, it didn't just happen now.  

I know that fans were upset when Jared didn't tweet congratulations to Jensen when his twins were born, and vice versa when Jared's daughter was born.  I personally don't think that everything needs to play out on social media.  I have no doubt that congratulations were said then, just like I'm sure conversations were had with Mark now.  

But are Dabb and Co. really naive enough to think that they could kill off Crowley, Castiel, Rowena, and potentially Mary and Lucifer, and that the fate of all of those people would remain a mystery until next season?    It literally took a day for the news to start leaking out.  And if Mark S. was asked to leave in exchange for keeping Mark P. as a regular, what little respect I had for Dabb is now completely gone.  

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think people are misunderstanding me, or perhaps I'm misunderstanding others in which case I apologise. It has been announced by Mark himself, Jim Michaels and several news sites that Mark Sheppard will not be returning to the series as a regular next year. Since that news has already been broke I don't see how a tweet from them that basically says "it's been nice working with you! Good luck with future projects" could be seen as breaking a non-disclosure agreement. They are only responding to news that has already been broken by Mark and a high up figure on the show (Jim Michaels). 

I should be clear I'm talking about a simple tweet that's along the lines of "you've been great to work with and I'll miss you". I'm not talking about them making tweets that dish the dirt on what exactly happened behind the scenes, or that somehow expresses the opinion the show runners were wrong to axe him, if he has indeed been axed. 

I think even the simple tweet like your talking about would ignite a deluge of anti Dabb/ Michaels tweets on J2Ms timelines. This is one case IMO it's better to publically leave it alone for now. I suspect they will say something at the next con.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I should be clear I'm talking about a simple tweet that's along the lines of "you've been great to work with and I'll miss you".

I agree, really expected this. And there should be no way in hell anyone would get in trouble over just basically saying something nice to a former co-worker. Nothing about that is spoilery.

But while I was expecting a tweet from the actor front, I absolutely would have expected an exit interview from the producers. But it seems like these guys don`t get that? That it is common courtesy to do in their position and really IMO not optional? I mean, of course, they can literally not do it as they have shown but I have not seen such a disgrace from a PTB since Joseph Malozzi back in Stargate days.   

[rue721]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I should be clear I'm talking about a simple tweet that's along the lines of "you've been great to work with and I'll miss you". I'm not talking about them making tweets that dish the dirt on what exactly happened behind the scenes, or that somehow expresses the opinion the show runners were wrong to axe him, if he has indeed been axed. 

Speaking practically, they may still be negotiating their own contracts and may not want to rock the boat with management until they've signed. Also, I would think they'd be wary about touching a management dispute with a ten-foot-pole even on even the best of days. They didn't get where they are by being naive or brash with their bosses.

The other possibility is that they are fine with Mark leaving. Maybe they legitimately agree with management's side in this. For all we know, they recommended the show let Mark go. Or Mark asked them to take up for him in negotiations, and they didn't. We really don't know.

ETA: I guess my point is that it's possible that because of their own role in this, Mark might find it hypocritical for them to thank him or say they'll miss him in social media. In which case, Mark would maybe react to that like he reacted to Jim Micheals and actually call them out on it.

Edited May 27, 2017 by rue721

[Res]

So, other than Cas being back in Ep 16, did any other spoilers or news come out of JIB?

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Res said:

So, other than Cas being back in Ep 16, did any other spoilers or news come out of JIB?

Not that I can think of...not really anyway. I'm not sure the actors know very much right now. We probably won't get any real spoilers until production starts back up in July. We might get clarification of things that already happened before then though.

[Aeryn13]

The earliest spoilers that ever come out before Comic Con are usually casting calls if a more substantial role is cast. And that is end of June/beginning of July at the earliest. If nothing like that happens - and somehow I don`t think so because the Jackifer has already been cast and he is probably the biggest recurring/guest role in the first episode(s) - then we won`t know anything before Comic Con.

[Wayward Son]

IBelieveinthelittletreehopper (the same user who made the season 12 spoiler sheet) has started compiling season 13 related information. According to her this is what we know so far

Quote

Season 13 - What we know so far!

I know, we’re still all processing the finale and there is no Spoiler Sheet to sooth your thirst for info…OR IS THERE!

Well, kinda.

The Season 13 spoiler sheet will get up and running right before shooting starts and, but until then, this is out place holder. So without further ado, here’s what we know about season 13. 

Information is listed newest first! Last updated: May 24.

There will be an Animated SCOOBY DOO crossover episode. No I’m not making this up. (x) It will be written by Jeremy Adams and Jim Krieg. Jared, Jensen AND MISHA have already recorded their voice parts. This will be episode 16. (x)

Returning Cast:

Misha Collins: On May 20, Jared lets slip that Misha is going to be in the Scooby Doo episode so we WILL GET MISHA/CAS Back. Misha confirmed this on twitter. (x)

Mark Sheppard: Conversely, it does not look like Mark Sheppard is coming back. (x) Update: Mark S is not returning as a season regular. (x)

Mark Pellegrino: No solid information, but return in season 13 is likely.

Samantha Smith: No solid information, but return in season 13 is likely. 

Ruth Connell: No information.

Kim, Briana, Kathryn and Katherine: Kim mentioned at Asylum 18 that something was in the works for Season 13, involving them. This was repeated at JIB con by Briana and she mentioned it would be “All four of us” and it might be Next year so, this could be in 2018. (x)

The Nephilim - Jack - is played by Alexander Calvert.

Richard Speight Jr. is once again directing 2 episodes.

Prep begins June 26. Now, I’m not sure if that means shooting starts the 10th or the 17th of July, but we’ll know by mid-June.

Jensen is NOT directing. It was the plan but he had to pull out because of the brewery opening. :(

Something for season 13 was already shot during the shooting of episode 22!  Update: not shot, but recorded - the dialogue for the Scooby Doo episode!

The writers returned to start work on the season on May 15.

The writing staff is unchanged from season 12: Andrew Dabb and Robert Singer are showrunners, writers: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming, Robert Berens, Meredith Glynn, Steve Yockey, Davy Perez, John Bring (writers assistant, occasional writer).

Should be 23 episodes.

If previous years are an indicator, Season 13 should premier on October 12. The day and timeslot - Thursday at 8pm, remains the same as the second half of season 12.

Supernatural was renewed for season 13 on January 8, 2017

I don't think there is anything on there we haven't discussed already, but it might be easier for anyone not wanting to back read multiple pages of posts. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I still haven't seen where confirmation of Jensen not directing in S13 comes from.

[catrox14]

I hope someone asks Jensen @ Phoenix con whether he is directing or not. I want to hear it from his mouth in public.This isn't a state secret given he said himself he was slated.

[Pondlass1]

I hope he directs. He obviously enjoys the challenge. I just hope he doesn't get a Nep Duo script. ?

[MysteryGuest]

Considering he personally said he would be directing, I would hope that if that changed, he would come out and say something.  The brewery opening just doesn't seem like a viable excuse, since he knew when it was opening when he made the statement that he was directing.  Obviously, plans can change, but hopefully we'll get some solid confirmation one way or the other.  

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope he directs. He obviously enjoys the challenge. I just hope he doesn't get a Nep Duo script. ?

If he does and they keep the same rotation as last year, he should end up with a Berens script. I think that would be a great match-up, myself. Berens tends to write more grounded and character-driven scripts and I think Jensen's strong suit as a director is understanding character.

Edited May 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

If I could pick a writer from the wish hat, I`d go with Yockey. His episodes were by far the strongest for me in Season 12. Berens, I found awful last year. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Considering he personally said he would be directing, I would hope that if that changed, he would come out and say something.  The brewery opening just doesn't seem like a viable excuse, since he knew when it was opening when he made the statement that he was directing.  Obviously, plans can change, but hopefully we'll get some solid confirmation one way or the other.  

Technically, he didn't say unequivocally he would be directing. IIRC he said, as of the asking of the question he was 'slated for an episode, so we'll see.' I'll have to go find the exact quote.

ETA: Found it -- well, @catrox14 found it :)  He answers the question around the 21 minute mark. Not unequivocal, but I haven't seen any source for the 'not directing' statement. 

See next post.

Edited May 28, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

On 5/22/2017 at 4:38 PM, catrox14 said:

<snip>Then he's asked about directing and he says "I think as it stands now, I'm slated to direct one next season. So we'll see how that goes". It really doesn't sound particularly vague to me but take a listen for yourselves. If it wasn't certain I think he would have said, "Well, we're trying to make it happen but nothing is scheduled'

 

 

[MysteryGuest]

The only thing I can think is that maybe they were talking about him doing something a bit later in the season because of his conflict with the brewery, and that didn't pan out for some reason.  To say he opted out because of the opening doesn't make sense to me, since he's known about that for quite a while.

[Macbeth]

I wish the J2s could say goodbye to Mark publicly.  But after the scuffle between MS and Jim Michaels - they shouldn't get in the middle of this. 

As good an actor as Mark S is - having open fights with TPTB tends to hinder future employment.  I hope I am wrong in this case.

Instead of a great sendoff TPTB dicked Mark over and Ruth Connell as well.  I doubt she's coming back.

And given some of the things they had Mark do this season - I wonder if it they did decide to take it out (whatever it is) on Mark - like hopping on one leg and all.

And that sucks and shows a complete lack of respect to the fans - because the story comes first.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I wish the J2s could say goodbye to Mark publicly.  But after the scuffle between MS and Jim Michaels - they shouldn't get in the middle of this. 

As good an actor as Mark S is - having open fights with TPTB tends to hinder future employment.  I hope I am wrong in this case.

Instead of a great sendoff TPTB dicked Mark over and Ruth Connell as well.  I doubt she's coming back.

And given some of the things they had Mark do this season - I wonder if it they did decide to take it out (whatever it is) on Mark - like hopping on one leg and all.

And that sucks and shows a complete lack of respect to the fans - because the story comes first.

I'm not sure if we should take that scene as any indication! They also had Mark Pellegrino doing some ridiculous stunts then, and he is quite favoured by the show runners if his recent promotion and general prevalence this year is anything to go by! 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[The Morning Star]

BTW when's the new gag reel coming out?

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, The Morning Star said:

BTW when's the new gag reel coming out?

It is usually released as a part of the SDCC panel :) 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It is usually released as a part of the SDCC panel :) 

"Released" to the audience at SDCC (and those with cell phones, lol). We get the official reel on the DVD/BluRays , right? I've never purchased the digital versions (*shakes fist at stupid Canadian digital media). Do you get the gag reel with that?

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

"Released" to the audience at SDCC (and those with cell phones, lol). We get the official reel on the DVD/BluRays , right? I've never purchased the digital versions (*shakes fist at stupid Canadian digital media). Do you get the gag reel with that?

The gag reel is usually put together for the end-of-the-year wrap party and sometimes released at Comic Con for the audience there, but yes, it's usually included on the DVD/blu-rays. Then it ends up allover the internet too.

Edited May 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Pondlass1]

On 5/26/2017 at 0:06 PM, Idahoforspn said:

 

I can't get rid of this quote thingy.  Anyway, I'm gagging for the gag reel.  There HAS to be more with Jensen on the mechanical bull. 

[Idahoforspn]

41 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I can't get rid of this quote thingy.  Anyway, I'm gagging for the gag reel.  There HAS to be more with Jensen on the mechanical bull. 

LOL

[catrox14]

15 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure if we should take that scene as any indication! They also had Mark Pellegrino doing some ridiculous stunts then, and he is quite favoured by the show runners if his recent promotion and general prevalence this year is anything to go by! 

IMO, the "reverse the polarity" bullshit was about as meta as it got. Crowley was being written out as the main "villain" and Lucifer written in.

[gonzosgirrl]

In case anyone still had any doubt.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In case anyone still had any doubt.

Heh. I just saw this myself and posted it in the SuperNormal thread.  :(. This is all just...not good...

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In case anyone still had any doubt.

I haven't had any doubt since his kiss goodbye message, but I am amused that Mark really only has himself to blame that people don't believe him. How many times has he cried that Crowley is dead over the years? Just sayin'.

Still I'll miss Mark. He was a delightful addition to this weird little show.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Heh. I just saw this myself and posted it in the SuperNormal thread.  :(. This is all just...not good...

No it is not. IMO, they got rid of the wrong Mark.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I haven't had any doubt since his kiss goodbye message, but I am amused that Mark really only has himself to blame that people don't believe him. How many times has he cried that Crowley is dead over the years? Just sayin'.

Still I'll miss Mark. He was a delightful addition to this weird little show.

Me either. Not since the airing of the episode, really. It was the 'bye boys' that convinced me. It was a 'good death' for the character. I only wish it hadn't been completely overshadowed by the Cas fake-out, and that it had actually been effective in locking up Luci.

You're so right about him crying wolf though. Sometimes it really does bite you in the ass! LOL!

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was a 'good death' for the character. I only wish it hadn't been completely overshadowed by the Cas fake-out, and that it had actually been effective in locking up Luci.

Although, one could argue that his death was successful in locking Luci on the other side, just like he set out to do. Just because he killed Cass first and took Mary with him doesn't really change that Crowley did win, in the end.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, one could argue that his death was successful in locking Luci on the other side, just like he set out to do. Just because he killed Cass first and took Mary with him doesn't really change that Crowley did win, in the end.

It was Mary fighting with him, that ultimately ended up causing him to be sealed in the rift. Not Crowley.  Lucifer walked right after Cas.  So it wasn't really effective. 

[catrox14]

I've been thinking...Could this really still be something else.

Could Mark have been given a spinoff which means he really won't be returning to actual SPN but might be going off on to his own show? Could the alternate universe end up being the spinoff?

Lucifer, Crowley, Mary, and Bobby??

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

It was Mary fighting with him, that ultimately ended up causing him to be sealed in the rift. Not Crowley.  Lucifer walked right after Cas.  So it wasn't really effective. 

But, Crowley's role in the whole thing was to seal the rift. Crowley delivered, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Although, one could argue that his death was successful in locking Luci on the other side, just like he set out to do. Just because he killed Cass first and took Mary with him doesn't really change that Crowley did win, in the end.

That's if you believe that Luci won't be freed within the first three episodes of S13 - personally I'm betting on one.

I re-watched this weekend and was thinking again how coincidental it was that after Crowley completed the spell by dying, the rift stayed open long enough for Cas to come back through, Sam to pull Dean back to our world, Cas to come back again, Luci to come back again and kill him, monologue with the boys, fight with Mary, fall back through again with her and then, it sealed up instantly behind them.

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

It was Mary fighting with him, that ultimately ended up causing him to be sealed in the rift. Not Crowley.  Lucifer walked right after Cas.  So it wasn't really effective. 

It was effective int hat it did close the Rift.

I still can't figure out why Cas went back through to kill Lucifer. He had NO reason to do it. I really wonder if Sproutifer was controlling Cas at that point and compelled him to kill Dear Old Dadifer which might be why Cas looked kind of surprised when he came back through the rift.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've been thinking...Could this really still be something else.

Could Mark have been given a spinoff which means he really won't be returning to actual SPN but might be going off on to his own show? Could the alternate universe end up being the spinoff?

Lucifer, Crowley, Mary, and Bobby??

If that was the case, there wouldn't be the undercurrent of animosity.