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22 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Actually I think it has proven the opposite, Sam is still a good person despite being tainted by demon blood after he was born.

While many others may have failed he didn't...outside may have an influence in what's visible about someone but at the end of the day, what's inside takes the cake.

 

I've always wondered, was Sam evil when he was born making him more susceptible to the effects of the demon blood?  Did Azazel and Lucifer really want Sam because he was not necessarily born good? I dunno. I don't think that was the case but it seems like something the show would want to come back around to in the end because either way, whether Sam was born evil , born good and tainted by demon blood or he was untainted by the demon blood until he chose to use it with Ruby, he still overcame all of that to become the Savior of the World even if he was the savior to fix what he broke.  I can see them going with Round 2.0 of Sam really saving the world but he didn't break it first...meaning maybe he saves the AU. 

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I think Lucifer will be around a lot next year--if so, how does the show make it work?  Put aside whether you'd be happy about that or think it wrong that he'll be back a lot-- so if back a lot next year how do they make Lucifer work?

I think they just can't have Lucifer totally free with total access to Earth or he'll start destroying many things--so imo that need Lucifer restrained somewhat on Earth and he's trying to get totally free while Dean, Sam, Cas and gang try to stop that.

You could keep Lucifer stuck in AU Land but I don't see that staying interesting for too long--So I think he eventually gets out there.  But if he does escape how to restrain Lucifer on Earth since as King of Hell he can go to Earth any time and make total chaos.  I see 2 possibilities--Team Free Will seals up Hell and Lucifer tries to re-open it OR Lucifer's Son either with TFW or solo acts as a check on Lucifer's power...either by being good or wanting power himself.

I'm guessing the Jack v. Lucifer scenario to stop total Lucifer control.

 

 

So how do you think Lucifer should be handled(if around a lot) for the good of the story and what do you think they'll actually do if they keep Lucifer around a lot?

Edited by Jakes

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 

I've always wondered, was Sam evil when he was born making him more susceptible to the effects of the demon blood?  Did Azazel and Lucifer really want Sam because he was not necessarily born good? I dunno. I don't think that was the case but it seems like something the show would want to come back around to in the end because either way, whether Sam was born evil , born good and tainted by demon blood or he was untainted by the demon blood until he chose to use it with Ruby, he still overcame all of that to become the Savior of the World even if he was the savior to fix what he broke.  I can see them going with Round 2.0 of Sam really saving the world but he didn't break it first...meaning maybe he saves the AU. 

I always thought the use of demon blood was to strengthen Sam's body for Lucifer more than anything.

Sam wasn't evil and he wasn't born evil. may have hoped the blood would change his nature but little did they know that while you can amplify or suppress someone's nature, you can never change it.

They effectively used Sam's devastated mind after Dean died and manipulated him to do what they wanted to without him realizing it...and let's face it, Sam's only recently behaving like an adult so I'd call him a stupid, arrogant child not evil.

So yeah, they might have chosen him not because he was evil but because his nature made him vulnerable against evil.

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28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I've always wondered, was Sam evil when he was born making him more susceptible to the effects of the demon blood?  Did Azazel and Lucifer really want Sam because he was not necessarily born good? I dunno. I don't think that was the case but it seems like something the show would want to come back around to in the end because either way, whether Sam was born evil , born good and tainted by demon blood or he was untainted by the demon blood until he chose to use it with Ruby, he still overcame all of that to become the Savior of the World even if he was the savior to fix what he broke.  I can see them going with Round 2.0 of Sam really saving the world but he didn't break it first...meaning maybe he saves the AU. 

I have questions....  maybe the All Episode thread?

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40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know, maybe he is going to be the 13th Doctor. Peter Capaldi is leaving this season and Mark is already the voice of BBC America. That would be pretty amazing.

I can totally see this.....

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10 minutes ago, DJG1122 said:

I can totally see this.....

Pretty much all the new DW spec I have read leans toward them going for a younger Doctor again. I adore Mark and think he's a wonderful actor, but I honestly can't see him as the Doctor with his inherent love for humanity*. It would certainly be a coup for him though. OMG.

 

*That is purely based on the characters Mark has played, not him as person of course. He does sardonic and slightly disdainful far too well. :)

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28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Pretty much all the new DW spec I have read leans toward them going for a younger Doctor again. I adore Mark and think he's a wonderful actor, but I honestly can't see him as the Doctor with his inherent love for humanity*. It would certainly be a coup for him though. OMG.

 

*That is purely based on the characters Mark has played, not him as person of course. He does sardonic and slightly disdainful far too well. :)

Mark is 50 (?)  and Peter Capaldi is 60 so technically he would be younger. LOL 

I thought Canton Delaware was a pretty nice guy...a little sarcastic but kind in the end.

Edited by catrox14

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2 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

I tend to think we were not born equally, some of us are better, some of us are worse, some of us are saints some of us are well.....serial killers.

If we were truly born as blank pieces of paper that are to be filled by our relatives, then children of thieves would be thieves, children of good people would be good people and etc and we both know it doesn't work like that does it?

No, actually - it sounds to me like your example of 'children of thieves would be thieves' fits better with the 'born bad' theory you support.  After all, wouldn't criminals such as serial killers be more likely to pass on some 'serial killer gene' to their children than good people?  

I also think that in your examples, you are not taking into account free will and choice.  Despite how someone is raised (to be a thief or not) they can always choose not to continue in that life or to take it up.  

I will grant that some people are born with predispositions to certain things - an addiction for example, whether that be gambling or drugs or something else.  Possibly even a predisposition to violence (though I don't think scientists or the medical field has proven that one yet.)  Especially in the case of mothers who used drugs while pregnant, which has been shown to affect the chemical makeup of the baby's brain.  But I still don't think it makes them Evil.  Damaged, yes. But they can also learn to overcome those deficiencies.  In your Born Good or Bad theory, no one would ever be able to change - and we both know it doesn't work like that, does it?  

Imo, people become evil because of what they do.  Not what they started out as.  

Jack hasn't done anything inherently evil - yet at least.  And until he does, he deserves the benefit of the doubt just like the rest of us.  See - I don't know what country in which you live, but in the US, it's 'innocent until proven guilty'.  

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If Sam saves Lucifer so that the devil can understand fatherhood and find redemption I'm buying the season's DVD set just to set it on fire in my back yard.

This.  Is hilarious.

If Bobby is in the empty, I want him to be released when Dean and company break out.  I want him alive again.  Killing him off was one of the worst mistakes the show did.  IMO, of course YMMV.

If Mark becomes the Doctor, he will face the same problems that the characters on SPN have faced the last several years: Writing that spirals further and further down the toilet instead of maintaining a decent level of writing.  I wanted to like PC's doctor, but the writing was atrocious.  I finally stopped watching after TPTB changed the way Cybermen were created and gave the Master a sex-change.  I will say, though, that I would watch Mark in anything.

I wonder if Mary will borrow a cup of sugar from Lucifer?

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12 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I wonder if Mary will borrow a cup of sugar from Lucifer?

The thought of her with Sketch squicked me out and then you had to go and put this out there! ;)

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2 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

 

If Mark becomes the Doctor, he will face the same problems that the characters on SPN have faced the last several years: Writing that spirals further and further down the toilet instead of maintaining a decent level of writing.  I wanted to like PC's doctor, but the writing was atrocious.  I finally stopped watching after TPTB changed the way Cybermen were created and gave the Master a sex-change.  I will say, though, that I would watch Mark in anything.

 

I didn't like PC until this season with Pearl Mackie. I realized it was Clara I didn't like. I keep hearing that the BBC wants a David Tennant type and Chris Chibnall hasn't written his Dr yet so maybe he wants a not-so-young one. 

Someone upthread mentioned that Mark retweeted the birthday greetings from Dr Who and did not retweet the one from Jim Michaels. I noticed that too. Seems like there is an issue there that no one is talking about. Wonder why Mark isn't talking. Would leaving the show negate his contract with Creation? 

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3 minutes ago, DJG1122 said:

Would leaving the show negate his contract with Creation? 

He's already said he's not doing Creation cons as of 2018. 

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24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's already said he's not doing Creation cons as of 2018. 

What about the rest of this year? Is he still contracted to do them? Just curious. If he is at the cons, will he say anything? 

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15 minutes ago, DJG1122 said:

What about the rest of this year? Is he still contracted to do them? Just curious. If he is at the cons, will he say anything? 

He's scheduled for several more and hasn't said anything about cancelling. I don't think his appearances are tied to his being on the show - most of the con guests aren't actively on the show anymore, lol. However I'm sure it affects the fee he gets paid, but I'm guessing the deciding factor is the exclusivity clause with Creation. I doubt he wants to continue to tie his hands with them, especially if he doesn't ( or maybe especially if he does?!!) know what he'll be doing in 2018.

Edited by gonzosgirrl

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I've signed many a contract that have a non-disclosure statement in there that holds the individual responsible for some number of years AFTER the contract is over.  I would actually be more surprised if Mark DID say anything more, even at conventions.  And yes, he'll honor his convention responsibilities through 2017, based on the Creation website. Plus he's already signed up for PURCON4 in 2018.

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1 minute ago, SueB said:

Plus he's already signed up for PURCON4 in 2018.

I'm confused about something. I thought the SPN cast couldn't do other cons or is that just in the US?

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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm confused about something. I thought the SPN cast couldn't do other cons or is that just in the US?

Only the US and I think ComicCon is the only exception. ETA: and I believe but I'm not 100% sure that it's only J2M2 who are exclusive. I feel like I've read that somewhere.

Edited by gonzosgirrl

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10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm confused about something. I thought the SPN cast couldn't do other cons or is that just in the US?

It's Creation that requires them not to do other cons in the US and Canada. I am pretty sure some of the other cast have done other cons in the US and Canada. 

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Hi guys

We're not going to be super strict about on topic-ness in this thread, buuuuuut:

  • speculations on the new Doctor Who casting; and
  • extended philosophical musing on Original Sin and humankind's innate goodness or evil,

are both beyond the scope of this thread and this forum.   Please limit yourself to directly Supernatural related conversations. 

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3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Only the US and I think ComicCon is the only exception. ETA: and I believe but I'm not 100% sure that it's only J2M2 who are exclusive. I feel like I've read that somewhere.

Is that a more recent thing? In 2011, both Misha and Mark Sheppard came to DragonCon... Of course Mark had ties to two very popular shows - the Browncoat contingency is strong at DragonCon - so he was at both panels if I remember correctly.

But that was back when Supernatural was in the X-Track (with X-Files). Now that it's been in the Urban Fantasy Track, SPN doesn't get as much attention anymore, so I wouldn't expect very many guests. The last Supernatural person who came - Osric Chau - came as a regular person (likely to participate in the large LARPing and Cosplay element).

Those of us in the room didn't even know that he was there - because he was dressed up - until the panelists told us he was there.

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Right, now I would say none of the writers has any clue if Jack is going to be good or bad.  I figure its just going to be Amara 2.0 and the writers will label him confused, and lost and he'll be helpful or destructive depending on the needs of the episode or individual writer. 

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3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

if Jack is going to be good or bad

Hopefully ... subtle, horrific and splendid.  With not one parallel or anvil to be found anywhere. 

Is this actor any good, I wonder?

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2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Is this actor any good, I wonder?

I've yet to see him in anything, so I don't know. I think he did a stint on Arrow this year, though?

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I thought he was good in Arrow. He played a rather psychotic character from DC universe named Anarky. He certainly has the chops to play a villain IMO. And he had a certain creepy youthful charm. It really will come down to the writing of the character. I have no concern with the actor.

Edited by catrox14

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I thought he was good in Arrow. He played a rather psychotic character from DC universe named Anarky. He certainly has the chops to play a villain IMO. And he had a certain creepy youthful charm. It really will come down to the writing of the character. I have no concern with the actor.

I agree. He did a good job, at least in terms of playing a crazy unhinged character. And that creepy smile at the end of the Finale may indicate they go there with the Spawn. 

At least this time they snagged an actor from another CW show that doesn`t make me go "nooooooo".  

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I heard a theory about Rowena on a podcast I listen to that was interesting. That maybe Rowena is now in Hell ruling as the Queen of Hell so even if her body was burned she might have just taken another vessel and used her advanced witchcraft to make it look like her. 

Theother pint they made was the focus on Rowena's hair looking like but might be a dolls hair and they thought maybe Max and Alicia will save Rowena by making her into a doll. To that end I was thinking maybe she saved herself by downloading her soul and saving it and then get another with, like Max and Alicia to help her. Or if she is in Hell maybe she turned Olivette back into a human to help her. Remember Olivette hated the Men of Letters so maybe they will have a reason to make the Mega Coven.

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They have season 11 on TNT now and I was watching how Lucifer made Crowley his dog, licking the floor and all...So I don't think this year having Crowley hopping on one foot was a punishment for Mark quitting OR a final straw that made him quit. 

It was just what Mark/Crowley already had done to him but in the past even worse was done.  So I think that the hopping this year had zilch to do with anything regarding Mark.

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought he was good in Arrow. He played a rather psychotic character from DC universe named Anarky. He certainly has the chops to play a villain IMO. And he had a certain creepy youthful charm. It really will come down to the writing of the character. I have no concern with the actor.

I watch Arrow--when was this?  I don't remember Anarky...what storyline was he apart of?  I haven't seen every single episode--so wondering if I missed it.

Edited by Jakes
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3 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I watch Arrow--when was this?  I don't remember Anarky...what storyline was he apart of?  I haven't seen every single episode--so wondering if I missed it.

spoilers for Arrow s4 You might remember him as Lonnie Machin

Spoiler

He was in the arc with Thea, Malcolm and Damien Darkh and HIVE. He had a thing for Thea and kept calling her Mommy. LOL

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26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

spoilers for Arrow s4 You might remember him as Lonnie Machin

  Hide contents

He was in the arc with Thea, Malcolm and Damien Darkh and HIVE. He had a thing for Thea and kept calling her Mommy. LOL

Ah, I remember the arc--don't remember him too much...I'll do a search to prod my memory.  Thanks!

 

PS--Okay now I remember him...yes he did a good villain, seems to be a good actor--promising as Lucifer Jr.  Makes it seem that Jack will go bad...at least partly.

Edited by Jakes
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41 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Ah, I remember the arc--don't remember him too much...I'll do a search to prod my memory.  Thanks!

 The actor is really the only reason I'm mildly interested in what happens with Sproutifer.

Edited by catrox14

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42 minutes ago, Jakes said:

PS--Okay now I remember him...yes he did a good villain, seems to be a good actor--promising as Lucifer Jr.  Makes it seem that Jack will go bad...at least partly.

I think part of why it's hard to remember his face is that he was in a partial mask much of the time because he was disfigured.

I still can't get over how much he looks like Misha Collins.  That's why I really thought it was Cas in the corner, like maybe Sproutifer had body swapped with Cas to try and save him or maybe each time Cas touched Kelly's belly he siphoned off some of Cas' DNA or cells or something so he didn't have to look like his father LOL. I really want that to have happened now. Talk about a screw you to Lucifer, to have him look like Castiel who he pretty well hates? LOL

Although really shouldn't Sproutifer look like Kelly and President Jeff since it was his actual sperm involved and not Lucifer's since he's a wavelength of celestial intent?

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1 hour ago, Jakes said:

 

PS--Okay now I remember him...yes he did a good villain, seems to be a good actor--promising as Lucifer Jr.  Makes it seem that Jack will go bad...at least partly.

I'm still hoping for unintentionally evil. Such as - a being who sees the big picture and focuses on that instead of seeing all the moving parts. And I do earnestly hope that both boys will be included in using their struggles with keeping their own humanity to help Sproutifer if they go this way.

What I don't want is him to just be a flat out villain. Don't want and maybe a factor as to why so many fans are upset over Crowley. Even if he was poorly written at times he had a lot of complexity given his history on the show that made him both evil yet something else entirely. They need more of that and if they wanted a new character that could do that again I'd be fine with it. (Especially if Shepard wanted to work on new things).

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Although really shouldn't Sproutifer look like Kelly and President Jeff since it was his actual sperm involved and not Lucifer's since he's a wavelength of celestial intent?

Ideally, but unless they really go with some kind of Cas influence or other random weirdness, I'll give them a pass. It's really hard to find the right actor for what you want, let alone to get them to look like they're related to other characters.

I'll just fanwank that that he looks the way he does because angel grace messes with genetics. :P

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think part of why it's hard to remember his face is that he was in a partial mask much of the time because he was disfigured.

I still can't get over how much he looks like Misha Collins.  That's why I really thought it was Cas in the corner, like maybe Sproutifer had body swapped with Cas to try and save him or maybe each time Cas touched Kelly's belly he siphoned off some of Cas' DNA or cells or something so he didn't have to look like his father LOL. I really want that to have happened now. Talk about a screw you to Lucifer, to have him look like Castiel who he pretty well hates? LOL

Although really shouldn't Sproutifer look like Kelly and President Jeff since it was his actual sperm involved and not Lucifer's since he's a wavelength of celestial intent?

Looking closer, yes he does look kind of like a younger Misha.  Hmmm...wonder if that means something?  Somehow he's part son of Cas too?  That would be very cool.  Coincidence or is something up?

 

PS--I also like the actor is NOT a teenager...he's 27.  So beyond the teenage angst thing(which SPN has had too much of in recent times).  More of a young adult presence. 

Edited by Jakes

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This is pretty spot- on casting for a Misha lookalike especially when Misha was a bit younger. I mean look at the nose, the eyes, the eyebrows even,  jawline and chin. Even the hairline is pretty dang close. The difference is Calvert has a little bit of a gap in his front teeth and his lips aren't quite the same  But seriously. I just have a hard time believing this is a coincidence in casting.

mishacollinstwitterpic.jpgMV5BMTAyODgzNTM3NzFeQTJeQWpwZ15BbWU4MDkz

tumblr_oqnf07VeyF1u7maj7o1_1280.pngalexander_calvert.jpg

Edited by catrox14
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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is pretty spot- on casting for a Misha lookalike especially when Misha was a bit younger. I mean look at the nose, the eyes, the eyebrows even,  jawline and chin. Even the hairline is pretty dang close. The difference is Calvert has a little bit of a gap in his front teeth and his lips aren't quite the same  But seriously. I just have a hard time believing this is a coincidence in casting.

tumblr_oqnf07VeyF1u7maj7o1_1280.pngmishacollinstwitterpic.jpg

MV5BMTAyODgzNTM3NzFeQTJeQWpwZ15BbWU4MDkzalexander_calvert.jpg

Funny he also has more of Misha's real hair color too.

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I'm not sure if it's intentional if I'm honest. I mean if they wanted the baby to be both Cas and Lucifer wouldn't it have been easier to just have Casifier sleep with someone? That way it would have had a biological tie to Cas and a metaphysical tie to Lucifer. It would have also been a lot less convulted than some sort of "Cas stole DNA explanation" 

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2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure if it's intentional if I'm honest. I mean if they wanted the baby to be both Cas and Lucifer wouldn't it have been easier to just have Casifier sleep with someone? That way it would have had a biological tie to Cas and a metaphysical tie to Lucifer. It would have also been a lot less convulted than some sort of "Cas stole DNA explanation" 

 

I didn't say Cas stole the DNA? Not sure where you got that from.

I'm saying Sproutifer, if he has awareness of himself and Lucifer and Cas, may have consciously decided he liked Cas better than Lucifer so he took some of Cas' DNA.

OR  better yet an unintended consequence, which this show really seems to love, in that Sproutifer unintentionally got some of Cas' DNA/whatever you want to call it, when Cas touched Kelly's belly and when Sproutifer powered up Cas to kill Dagon, like an accidental siphoning, or even an exchange of power to some degree, that makes Sproutifer partly Cas' child, hence the need for an actor that looks like Misha.

IMO, I don't think the showrunners would have put Cas to be in the position of being a rapist which is what Lucifer did to Kelly. That would be a bridge too far for the audience IMO.  Given Cas had enough strength to break through and tell Sam that Lthat he couldn't expel Lucifer because he was needed to save Dean, then I really truly think Cas would have found some way to stop Lucifer from using him to rape Kelly.

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 3:31 PM, catrox14 said:

I really want to know what this exchange between Misha and Jensen was all about, what Jensen nearly blabbed about Misha. NSFW for language. some swearing.

 

 

They were talking about Misha's kids both singing "Carry on My Wayward Son"

Jensen: "So, is what you told me earlier, public knowledge? Cause that's kind of a nice segue

Misha: /terrified " What did I tell him?"

Jensen leans over and whispers something to him and Misha was genuinely terrified.
Misha : No . No. No. No.  That would have been a fucking disaster.
Jensen: never mind
Misha: I'm so glad you didn't ask that. What a coup
Jensen: Of course Jared would have just said it.
Misha: I'm actually having palpitations right now
Jensen: Unfiltered Jared
Jensen: That's why I ask! OKAY!! Moving on.

It's funny, but what is the secret!?

I have a new theory on this--could be totally wrong.  Since the actor playing Jack DOES look like a younger Misha--what IF Misha was told by Dabb or a writer friend IN SECRET that Jack from some hocus pocus ends up being Cas's son(or at the very least Cas being a co-dad with Lucifer).  So he told Jensen and Jensen almost spilled it.

If Misha was told that big secret and it got out--that would be as Misha said "a fucking disaster".  Why would Jensen called that a "segue" with Misha talking about his sons singing Wayward Son and talking about the Cas dolls that they have as "Dad"?  The segue would be from sons of Misha to son of Castiel.

Just a theory.

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I think Misha and Vickie are expecting another baby.  Maybe they want to keep it quiet. That's my thought anyway. 

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Supernatural works it's best when it's centered on the brothers and the focus of the show is the struggle of the brothers with something rather than the focus on that thing standalone.

I think it's a part of the reason why the show seems weaker these days, back in the olden days you had the story of Sam and Dean and their biggest threats guest starring , these days, the theat itself gets equal and sometimes even more screen time than the brothers.

Which could've been fine if the show could've done better than a bunch of teenagers and some hallway as "Heaven" and "angels".

If you can't pull it off then don't bother, let it stay a mystery, let our imaginations go wild.

I vividly remember how when Cas was shown to possess Jimmy, he was probably standing under a spotlight and yet that simple spotlight scene some how is worth more than this worthless blue floating thingy that they have now for angles that ironically takes more of a time to put together.

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On 6/1/2017 at 10:04 PM, catrox14 said:

I didn't say Cas stole the DNA? Not sure where you got that from.

I'm saying Sproutifer, if he has awareness of himself and Lucifer and Cas, may have consciously decided he liked Cas better than Lucifer so he took some of Cas' DNA.

OR  better yet an unintended consequence, which this show really seems to love, in that Sproutifer unintentionally got some of Cas' DNA/whatever you want to call it, when Cas touched Kelly's belly and when Sproutifer powered up Cas to kill Dagon, like an accidental siphoning, or even an exchange of power to some degree, that makes Sproutifer partly Cas' child, hence the need for an actor that looks like Misha.

Sorry, I was referring to one of several theories about the nephilim inheriting traits from Castiel I've seen online! I wasn't referring to you specifically.

 

Quote

IMO, I don't think the showrunners would have put Cas to be in the position of being a rapist which is what Lucifer did to Kelly. That would be a bridge too far for the audience IMO.  Given Cas had enough strength to break through and tell Sam that Lthat he couldn't expel Lucifer because he was needed to save Dean, then I really truly think Cas would have found some way to stop Lucifer from using him to rape Kelly.

I would have to agree to disagree on a Lucifer possessed Castiel sleeping with Kelly being a step too far! IMO the show is definitely not afraid to have its main characters carry out bad deeds if the plot calls for it. The most relevant example of this takes place in I'm No Angel where Castiel has sex with the reaper possessed April. Although I wouldn't refer to that as rape, as Castiel did not know she was possessed, there were definitely major consent issues involved with that encounter. Plus it was revealed that back in season four the majority of the shows writers were content to allow Sam to sleep with a Ruby possessed victim. It was only the words of Sera Gamble that swayed Kripke into introducing the brain dead component to lessen the ick factor associated with the Sam and Ruby relationship. IMO consent hasn't been a major issue for this show since she left at the end of season seven. Other examples of the main characters being involved in less than upstanding deeds include; Sam's decision to murder an 'awake' nurse for her blood rather than try an exorcism, Castiel's decision to break Sam's wall in order to distract the brothers while he tried to open purgatory, Dean's decision to murder an innocent teen (the Styne kid whose name I can't remember). Castiel in particular they have never been afraid of making look bad. His misdeeds including; the murder of Balthazar when he felt betrayed, the breaking of Sam's wall, the unleashing of the levithians, stealing from the brothers, leaving them knocked out and vulnerable near the gates of heaven. IMO if the writers wanted to introduce a kid which was fathered by both Castiel and Lucifer the consent issues involved would not have stopped them. If they wanted to keep Castiel' sympathetic all they'd have to say is that he was deep within his own mind and completely unaware of what was going on in the world around him, as was the case when Crowley possessed him during Hell's Angel

 

So overall I personally believe any physical similarities between Misha and Alexander are a coincidence rather than something intended. IMO having to make use of explanations such as 'the baby stole Cas' DNA when they connected' etc seem overly convoluted when it would have been a lot easier to just make Casifier the father of Kelly's baby. Of course I could be proven wrong in the end. I'm simply sharing my view on the issue at this current moment in time :) 

Edited by Wayward Son

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@Wayward Son I agree that consent is a big problem with this show and I hate what they do and that they never deal with it.

Castiel could not have given informed consent to have sex with the reaper because he didn't know that's who it was. April also had power over a human Castiel because he had no money, no home and even IF Castiel knew that he was having sex with a reaper instead of April herself, it was an uncomfortable power dynamic. President Jeff had no idea that Lucifer was actually Lucifer and he didn't know that he would be used as a device to impregnate Kelly.  Kelly had no way to give any consent to having sex with Lucifer because Lucifer was pretending to be President Jeff.

Sera Gamble also thought it was hot when Meg!Sam attacked Jo in s2 (it's in her commentary about that episode) and Sera was also the showrunner when Sam was held against his will and ruffied by Becky. So I don't really give Sera much credit on that front. Also, that really doesn't help, with the whole ick of Ruby and Sam. I mean if Ruby had just decided to vacate that vessel when they were having sex, that leaves Sam literally screwing a corpse.  YIKES!!!

As a Dean fan, I have a hard time with him prowling around as a demon having sex with Ann Marie  and who knows who else. and I'm pretty sure he never told her she was fucking a demon. And there was no evidence she was a demon either. They skirt that because Dean was in his own meatsuit so it feels different but was it technically? That said, Dean was a demon so whatever he did as a demon, should get a pass like whatever Sam did on demon blood, like draining the nurse or sleeping with Ruby despite her supposed using a fully soulless meatsuit.

But in the case of Castiel, he is an angel. He has been spending his time trying to fix all the things he has broken. IMO, having the visual of the Misha Collins' face having sex with Kelly as Lucifer...I think the backlash on that would have been far too much to overcome.  Cas haters would have jumped on that as 'Okay, stupid Cas let himself be Lucifer's vessel and he should have known this could happen" KILL CASTIEL BRIGADE.  Cas fencesitters would jump on that as a reason to push them into hating Cas.

So for me, if they want Sproutifer to be partly Cas' kid better it be an unintended cosmic consequence.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

As a Dean fan, I have a hard time with him prowling around as a demon having sex with Ann Marie  and who knows who else. and I'm pretty sure he never told her she was fucking a demon.

I don't know that I agree with this one, since, as you said, Dean was in his own body. Deciding when a failure to disclose information is so bad as to interfere with consent is difficult. If the information you are not disclosing is "actually, I'm a completely different person than the person you think you are agreeing to have sex with," that's a form of rape; Lucifer having sex with Kelly in President Jeff's body falls into that category.

But, as bad as it is for a married guy to sleep with a woman who believes he is single, I wouldn't feel comfortable categorizing that as rape, even though a lot of women wouldn't have consented had they known the full story. It is a horrible deception and, if we're talking about more than a one-night stand, a gross breach of trust, but not, IMO, rape.

I believe that in part because the consequences of categorizing sex obtained via some level of deception as non-consensual is a slippery slope. We would all be sympathetic to the woman whose lover never told her he was married, but what about a racist woman who claims she never would have slept with her latest hook-up if she realized he was a light-skinned black man? Is it only rape once the relationship is serious enough that the non-disclosure becomes more culpable? 

Given this show's record on consent, I can't imagine they would have had a problem with Casifer having sex with Kelly under false pretenses, if that is where they wanted the storyline to go. The writers really don't seem to see anything other than forcible rape as rape, and even then don't seem to consider it as seriously as they should given that they've all but stated that Sam was raped by Lucifer (and implied that Dean was at least sexually abused by Alistair) without ever addressing this as more than an off-hand taunt. 

On the other hand, the actor for Jack really looks like he could be Misha Collins's kid. So, who knows. 

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2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But, as bad as it is for a married guy to sleep with a woman who believes he is single, I wouldn't feel comfortable categorizing that as rape, even though a lot of women wouldn't have consented had they known the full story. It is a horrible deception and, if we're talking about more than a one-night stand, a gross breach of trust, but not, IMO, rape.

I get what you are going for but I don't see that as being the same thing. That's why I said with demon!Dean it's a little more difficult.   Let's say Jane Doe wants to sleep with Bob Jones. They are both married and neither tells the other one they are married.  But they are using their real identities. Both are cheating on their respective spouses but they are not lying about who they are per se.

But a demon is another kettle of fish. Ann Marie might have been fine with it but maybe she wouldn't have either.  I guess I think of it it almost like demon!Dean being his own identical twin in a sense. I think of it like someone  who agrees to have sex with identical twin A but in reality  identical Twin B showed up to have sex with the person who thought it was still Twin A. That is not informed consent. The person would have no reason to think they weren't having sex with Twin A..I look at POTUS!Lucifer! in a similar way. Kelly believed it was POTUS!Jeff.  But the reality is that Lucifer was controlling everything, so really Lucifer raped both POTUS!Jeff and Kelly.  If Casifer had sex with Kelly it's still the same thing, although Cas would at least have some audience sympathy that he didn't really do it but I just think it would be a little too far. YMMV

 

16 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Given this show's record on consent, I can't imagine they would have had a problem with Casifer having sex with Kelly under false pretenses, if that is where they wanted the storyline to go. The writers really don't seem to see anything other than forcible rape as rape, and even then don't seem to consider it as seriously as they should given that they've all but stated that Sam was raped by Lucifer (and implied that Dean was at least sexually abused by Alistair) without ever addressing this as more than an off-hand taunt. 

Yeup. It's a big problem.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

But a demon is another kettle of fish. Ann Marie might have been fine with it but maybe she wouldn't have either.  I guess I think of it it almost like demon!Dean being his own identical twin in a sense. I think of it like someone  who agrees to have sex with identical twin A but in reality  identical Twin B showed up to have sex with the person who thought it was still Twin A.

For me the difference is that it wasn't as if there was some other "real" Dean Winchester out there that the woman thought she was consenting to sleep with. As far as demon Dean knew, this was his permanent state; he had once been "regular" Dean, and now he was still Dean, but a demon. Which might well make a material difference in someone's decision of whether or not to sleep with him, but I don't think it makes a difference re: consent. In fact, for the purposes of a one night stand, I'm not even sure I find it unethical; not that Garth struck me as the hook-up type anyway, but I don't think that, if he hadn't married Bess, he'd need to tell a random woman he picked up at a bar that he was a werewolf before he had sex with her. Which would be difficult anyway, given that most people in SPN-verse don't have any idea that things like demons and werewolves exist.

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Demon!Dean didn't claim to be someone else. He just didn't disclose everything about himself.

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9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

For me the difference is that it wasn't as if there was some other "real" Dean Winchester out there that the woman thought she was consenting to sleep with. As far as demon Dean knew, this was his permanent state; he had once been "regular" Dean, and now he was still Dean, but a demon. Which might well make a material difference in someone's decision of whether or not to sleep with him, but I don't think it makes a difference re: consent. In fact, for the purposes of a one night stand, I'm not even sure I find it unethical; not that Garth struck me as the hook-up type anyway, but I don't think that, if he hadn't married Bess, he'd need to tell a random woman he picked up at a bar that he was a werewolf before he had sex with her. Which would be difficult anyway, given that most people in SPN-verse don't have any idea that things like demons and werewolves exist.

Okay, I see your point on demon!Dean.I can see that. 

I suppose the only reason I would think Garth should disclose that he was a werewolf is if he was hooking up on a night the full moon was out and he risked turning, which I would hope he wouldn't have taken that risk.

Hmmm....food for thought.

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Demon!Dean didn't claim to be someone else. He just didn't disclose everything about himself.

Yeah, I understand that now. I was not thinking of it that way.  @companionenvy explained it and I see his/her point and I now concur. I should just retract my comment on demon!Dean or be prepared to have 10 people tell me the same thing.  LOL oh well.

Edited by catrox14

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I should just retract my comment on demon!Dean or be prepared to have 10 people tell me the same thing.  LOL oh well.

Hee! Did you know that Demon Dean didn't pretend to be someone else... .

Sorry, I couldn't resist with a set up like that!! ;)

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ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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