Spoilers With Speculation

[Pondlass1]

17 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Agreed. It sounded like there weren't many humans left on AU earth. And those that have survived would have to be stubborn, experienced and tough like Bobby and Rufus. I can hardly see Mr Nice Jimmy Novak and family surviving an apocalypse. 

Good point.  But we can't think too deeply about this.  The writers certainly won't.  If AU characters sound exciting to Andrew - they'll be on our screens.  

[CluelessDrifter]

3 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Yes we read that clearly differently--Misha is back, Cas is back changed and maybe something happens with the AU world.  We wouldn't be seeing Cas again if he was really AU Cas.  Cas is transformed--so he's there.

It's not that I'm trying to dash your hopes, but I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for people to brace themselves for AU!Cas instead of Cas.  His death might have been quick and unexpected in the moment, but I think Cas got a pretty good season-long send off.  We got to see in the Lily Sunder episode how much he's changed by knowing the Winchesters.  We saw his goodbye to them in 12.12.  We saw how much they mean to him and vice versa.  We had him die while trying for a win that he hasn't had in a really long time.  We got a Twig!Alicia that could be a parallel to AU!Cas or anyone else in the AU if that's the way you want to see it.  We have Misha saying we'll get some version of Cas next season.  Then he immediately brings up the AU.  Does that mean that Cas will stay gone?  I don't know.  Possibly not, because the other characters on Supernatural who have died and been brought back different have been 'fixed' after a time, but I wouldn't expect it until half way through the season or the end of the season if it's going to happen at all.

[DittyDotDot]

At this point it's all just speculation and interpretation.

It could be:

• That's real Cass lying dead and will stay dead while an alternate version of Cass shows up on the other side.
• Alternate Cass is what died and will stay dead while our Cass is trapped in the alternate universe with Mary, Lucifer...and, yes, Crowley.
• Alternate Cass who died and the spawn resurrects alternate Cass. That doesn't mean the boys may not know it's our Cass immediately, it could be and the boys realize it's not our Cass right away. 
• It could also be our Cass laying dead and the spawn resurrects Cass, but he's different somehow.

There are lots of different possibilities. I lean toward there ending up being two versions of Cass--just because I prefer to think TPTB wouldn't get rid of Cass's history and start over--that doesn't mean that both versions will be played by Misha though. 

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The biggest error this series makes is to have 'regulars' disappear for weeks at a time and we're left thinking "why don't they call Cas?" or "where's Cas?" etc.  I realize these actors are only assigned a certain number of episodes - but it's all in the writing.  Too many writers writing in isolation and a showruner that's not experienced enough to tie SLs and characters together.

Thinking on it more now, it's almost ingenious how they trapped almost all the recurring characters on the other side so we don't have that "why are they hunting randoms when the Devil is out there" factor. Maybe this is their attempt to correct that error?

[Jonesy]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

It's not that I'm trying to dash your hopes, but I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for people to brace themselves for AU!Cas instead of Cas.  His death might have been quick and unexpected in the moment, but I think Cas got a pretty good season-long send off.  We got to see in the Lily Sunder episode how much he's changed by knowing the Winchesters.  We saw his goodbye to them in 12.12.  We saw how much they mean to him and vice versa.  We had him die while trying for a win that he hasn't had in a really long time.  We got a Twig!Alicia that could be a parallel to AU!Cas or anyone else in the AU if that's the way you want to see it.  We have Misha saying we'll get some version of Cas next season.  Then he immediately brings up the AU.  Does that mean that Cas will stay gone?  I don't know.  Possibly not, because the other characters on Supernatural who have died and been brought back different have been 'fixed' after a time, but I wouldn't expect it until half way through the season or the end of the season if it's going to happen at all.

He says we will see Cas...not AU Cas then Cas will change...it's clear to me he is talking about Cas.  He throws in AU after.  This is not just hope--that is clearly reading it.  Now if you think or read differently fine--I think you are wrong but we'll see in the end.   And do remember versions of Cas is normal...crazy Cas, God Cas, Levi Cas, human Cas--so saying version of Cas is a continuation of Cas.

[CluelessDrifter]

12 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Thanks for the transcript, @CluelessDrifter. I don't read any certainties into that either way. Other than Cas being transformed in some way, that was as clear as mud!

Ha, it was.  I don't think he was prepared to say what he did, but it was right after he had to hug a girl who was crying over Cas, and I think he was trying to give her something and not give anything away.  I think the most important thing he said was that he would be back in season 13.  He could've left it at that, and we would've gotten just as cloudy of a picture of what kind of Cas we'll be getting as we got with his answer.  If he gave us certainties either way, we'd run out of things to talk about before the show starts back up in October, so I guess it's a good thing he didn't.

[Wayward Son]

My main issue with Alt!Cas and OUR Cas appearing concurrently is the workload for Misha and the production team. I know they've done it before, for example Dean and future Dean during The End, or the different aspects of Sam's psyche during The Man Who Knew Too Much, but that was for one episode. I feel like having two Cas' / Misha around long term would be a bit too much especially when he doesn't appear in all the episodes in the first place!!

[companionenvy]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My main issue with Alt!Cas and OUR Cas appearing concurrently is the workload for Misha and the production team. I know they've done it before, for example Dean and future Dean during The End, or the different aspects of Sam's psyche during The Man Who Knew Too Much, but that was for one episode. I feel like having two Cas' / Misha around long term would be a bit too much especially when he doesn't appear in all the episodes in the first place!!

Eh, plenty of sci-fi shows have had the same actor playing multiple versions of his or her character for an extended period, and sometimes even for the duration of the series. So I don't think it is a workload issue.

Jakes, if Misha had been giving a prepared statement, I agree that his saying that Cas would be "transformed" by death would pretty clearly imply that our Cas would be back, and I still think and hope there's a good chance that that is the case. But in the context of the full comment, he seems to be thinking fast and trying to avoid saying too much, so I don't think anything is confirmed other than that Cas is back in some iteration. So, I'm cautiously optimistic that our Cas will be back, but am mentally steeling myself for disappointment. 

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Thinking on it more now, it's almost ingenious how they trapped almost all the recurring characters on the other side so we don't have that "why are they hunting randoms when the Devil is out there" factor. Maybe this is their attempt to correct that error?

It would also allow for the boys time off. All they would need would be a scene or two of them researching how to open a portal and maybe an emo scene about how worried they are and then the writers could shift the majority of the episode/s over to doom!world. 

[Wayward Son]

Just now, companionenvy said:

Eh, plenty of sci-fi shows have had the same actor playing multiple versions of his or her character for an extended period, and sometimes even for the duration of the series. So I don't think it is a workload issue.

Jakes, if Misha had been giving a prepared statement, I agree that his saying that Cas would be "transformed" by death would pretty clearly imply that our Cas would be back, and I still think and hope there's a good chance that that is the case. But in the context of the full comment, he seems to be thinking fast and trying to avoid saying too much, so I don't think anything is confirmed other than that Cas is back in some iteration. So, I'm cautiously optimistic that our Cas will be back, but am mentally steeling myself for disappointment. 

Yes but aren't those characters generally one of the leads i.e someone who appears in every episode (or near enough) as at least one of those characters. Let's not forget Misha only appears in at most half the episodes of a season. His screen time is limited as it is let alone trying to fit in multiple characters / storylines. 

[auntvi]

33 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Although today's regular Cas  is light years away from the original season 4 Cas.

32 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

An AU Cas could be like a shot in the arm - could be intriguing.

Exactly.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

It would also allow for the boys time off. All they would need would be a scene or two of them researching how to open a portal and maybe an emo scene about how worried they are and then the writers could shift the majority of the episode/s over to doom!world. 

I sure hope we don't get any less of the Js than we do now. Any less would be a tipping point I feel. Especially because the writing now for their limited time gives them a guest star vibe as it is.

[Bessie]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Let's not forget Misha only appears in at most half the episodes of a season. His screen time is limited as it is let alone trying to fit in multiple characters / storylines. 

Nothing stopping them from making him a lead. With Shepard gone, they should have the extra cash. 

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Bessie said:

Nothing stopping them from making him a lead. With Shepard gone, they should have the extra cash. 

I really can't see that happening. I'd love it if they did, but I couldn't see it. I feel like if promoting Misha (or anyone for that matter) into a third lead was a possibility they'd have done it long ago. I feel like Jensen and Jared have expressed their view of the show as being primarily one "about two brothers" too many times in cons and interviews for them to make such a fundamental change. 

[ILoveReading]

I think we may get both.  Trying to put my mindset as to how the show runners think, I think AU Cas came out of that portal.  It doesn't matter if its plausible or not just if the writers want it).  Since the Nephilm is all powerful he can probably open and close other realms at will.  So I'm guessing he was born, went into AUworld and sent AU Cas out as his protector.   Lucifer killed him, (mostly for angst over the summer hiatus) but I'm sure Jack will resurrect him before the opening credits. 

Will the boys know its real or fake Cas.  Not sure, depends on how what Dabb wants.  If he wants to keep Dean in a more passive role, and make Sam the leader, I'd say yes, they will know right off.  Then the show will use grief over Cas to achieve just that scenario.  

If Dabb wants to be "clever" he won't say right way, and use it as a "gotcha" moment in the cliff hanger.  That it completely undermines the boys friendship with Cas, won't matter. 

Then either at mid-season the AU world will open somehow, releasing Real Cas, Mary and Lucifer.  The 2nd half will deal with Mary and her experience in the AU world, and the brothers trying to end Lucifer and stop Jack from reuniting with his father, because watching that multiple seasons already  isn't enough.

[Jonesy]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Eh, plenty of sci-fi shows have had the same actor playing multiple versions of his or her character for an extended period, and sometimes even for the duration of the series. So I don't think it is a workload issue.

Jakes, if Misha had been giving a prepared statement, I agree that his saying that Cas would be "transformed" by death would pretty clearly imply that our Cas would be back, and I still think and hope there's a good chance that that is the case. But in the context of the full comment, he seems to be thinking fast and trying to avoid saying too much, so I don't think anything is confirmed other than that Cas is back in some iteration. So, I'm cautiously optimistic that our Cas will be back, but am mentally steeling myself for disappointment. 

My take is Misha was prepared to say something because he heard the outcry and he knew it was coming at this Con--as he even said at the previous Con he wasn't looking forward to reactions from this one.

So he was ready and I think he was careful and said what he wanted to say--so could he have still messed it up...I suppose.   BUT I think he got it out that we'll see Cas again. 

Now if I'm wrong(don't think I am...but possible), no amount of bracing will do...because I've already stated that killing or changing of Dean, Sam or Cas is a deal breaker for me and then I'd stop watching--12 seasons would be long enough then.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I think we may get both.  Trying to put my mindset as to how the show runners think, I think AU Cas came out of that portal.  It doesn't matter if its plausible or not just if the writers want it).  Since the Nephilm is all powerful he can probably open and close other realms at will.  So I'm guessing he was born, went into AUworld and sent AU Cas out as his protector.   Lucifer killed him, (mostly for angst over the summer hiatus) but I'm sure Jack will resurrect him before the opening credits. 

Will the boys know its real or fake Cas.  Not sure, depends on how what Dabb wants.  If he wants to keep Dean in a more passive role, and make Sam the leader, I'd say yes, they will know right off.  Then the show will use grief over Cas to achieve just that scenario.  

If Dabb wants to be "clever" he won't say right way, and use it as a "gotcha" moment in the cliff hanger.  That it completely undermines the boys friendship with Cas, won't matter. 

Then either at mid-season the AU world will open somehow, releasing Real Cas, Mary and Lucifer.  The 2nd half will deal with Mary and her experience in the AU world, and the brothers trying to end Lucifer and stop Jack from reuniting with his father, because watching that multiple seasons already  isn't enough.

If they try to say that AU!Cas is the one who came out of the portal and is resurrected, wouldn't that be an almost direct repeat of Soulless Sam?  

[Jonesy]

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yes but aren't those characters generally one of the leads i.e someone who appears in every episode (or near enough) as at least one of those characters. Let's not forget Misha only appears in at most half the episodes of a season. His screen time is limited as it is let alone trying to fit in multiple characters / storylines. 

There is no rule that AU Cas and real Cas need to be in same episode--Misha averages 11 to 14 episodes a year...this year 11 the 2 years before 13.  You can have AU Cas in 6, regular Cas in 7.  If they are quality then that would be fine.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Jakes

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Nothing stopping them from making him a lead. With Shepard gone, they should have the extra cash. 

They promoted Mark P. to a regular. Probably in anticipation of taking Mark S slot ( and cash).

[Bessie]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

9 minutes ago, Bessie said:

 

They promoted Mark P. to a regular. Probably in anticipation of taking Mark S slot ( and cash).

Agreed. Completely forgot about that!  Man, I'd so much rather have Crowley stick around than Lucifer. 

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

If they try to say that AU!Cas is the one who came out of the portal and is resurrected, wouldn't that be an almost direct repeat of Soulless Sam?  

The show repeats storylines all the time.  (Die, Lucifer Die)  Mary being in the AU world is no different than Dean being in purgatory.  I really don't think that Jack won't just be a male Amara, complete with some kind of bond with Sam.

Edited May 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Eh, plenty of sci-fi shows have had the same actor playing multiple versions of his or her character for an extended period, and sometimes even for the duration of the series.

No doubt this happens but I know from Vampire Diaires where Nina Dobrev played two characters concurrently, sometimes with scenes acting against herself, it was a logistical nightmare and the actress was close to collapse after half a Season. Granted, both were major parts and Cas/AU!Cas might not be. But somehow I see both happening but not at the same time. A little vignette with AU!Cas who may or may not be killed off in the doom world and then real!Cas comes back.

How much we see of doom-world also depends on how quickly the brothers find a way there. Sure, they can make filler scenes with Mary/Lucifer in there but from what I understood from the convention the location is way out there and it takes a long time to drive there. That is literally time/money to burn which IMO they will not really waste if the main characters don`t enter that world soon enough. 

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Bessie said:

Agreed. Completely forgot about that!  Man, I'd so much rather have Crowley stick around than Lucifer. 

Have to agree with you there. I was done with Luci after season 5. He should have stayed in his cage as far as I am concerned.

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

The show repeats storylines all the time.  (Die, Lucifer Die)  Mary being in the AU world is no different than Dean being in purgatory. 

I know, but it seems to have gotten really bad in season 12, so I was kind of hoping they were doing it to get it out of their system as something of an homage to earlier seasons, and they'd stop doing it in season 13, since they're supposed to be starting a 'new chapter.'  :(

[rue721]

I'm not 100% on Crowley/Mark Sheppard being gone.

What sticks in my mind is the blood purification ritual that apparently worked (even though the spell didn't get them out of the bunker), and that Crowley mentioned the idea of shutting Hell's gates so soon after.

I think the odds are good that Crowley is dead-dead, but there's a part of me that really wonders if they were setting him up to be cured.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

They promoted Mark P. to a regular. Probably in anticipation of taking Mark S slot ( and cash).

Um, I think it has more to do with needing to lock Mark Pelligrino down to a specific number of episodes because he's a busy guy. I highly doubt it was to replace Mark Sheppard.

Series regular just means they have a contracted number of episodes they must get paid for whether or not they use them. And, the actor is contractually obligated to be available for those episodes and may have to turn down other work if it conflicts. A regular guest is one who can take whatever works suits them. Samantha Smith could've taken another role on another show this season and suddenly been unavailable, Mark Pelligrino could not.

But, I also don't think Mark Sheppard is actually gone from the show. They may have killed off our Crowley--or not--but there's also the alternative version of him too. I think everyone's being too coy about it. I fully expect Mark Sheppard back on the show, just like I fully expect Misha back.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The show repeats storylines all the time.  (Die, Lucifer Die)  

They could put a little more originality in though. 

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Marybeing in the AU world is no different than Dean being in purgatory. 

Except Dean was a lead (and we still got very little of the story) and Mary is reoccurring ( but nevertheless will get tons more screen time)

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

I really don't think that Jack won't just be a male Amara, complete with some kind of bond with Sam.

Afraid your right on that one.

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I know, but it seems to have gotten really bad in season 12, so I was kind of hoping they were doing it to get it out of their system as something of an homage to earlier seasons, and they'd stop doing it in season 13, since they're supposed to be starting a 'new chapter.'  :(

Ditto! This is the opportunity for them to really fix some problems.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

I don't know how they can get away with saying "nevermind, Cas isn't dead." Not after he flashed out and left his scorched wings on the ground. I hope they don't do it. This season's version is so watered down from the original Cas, I think it would be a lot more interesting to see an alt-Cas. JMO

I think if what/whoever that is laying on the ground isn't dead dead, it's a huge insult to every other angel death we've seen. White light - well we saw Cas begin to lose some when Alistair was exorcizing* him back to heaven in OTHOAP (remember back when only an angel could kill another angel? *sigh*). But Sam stopped Alistair and Cas recovered. But burned out wings have always signaled the end of an angel, each and every time. I'm okay with it being an AUCas that was killed, but if it was indeed an angel, then he should be dead - short of Chuck himself resurrecting him.

I'm not going to be happy with an 'oh, that was just an illusion/mind-fuck courtesy of Luci or Luci Jr., either. I know they really DGAF about canon when it suits, but damnit, some things should be untouchable - and burned out wings = dead angel should be one of them.

 

*maybe banishing is a better term?

Edited May 22, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, I think it has more to do with needing to lock Mark Pelligrino down to a specific number of episodes because he's a busy guy. I highly doubt it was to replace Mark Sheppard.

Maybe it's both.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Series regular just means they have a contracted number of episodes they must get paid for whether or not they use them. And, the actor is contractually obligated to be available for those episodes and may have to turn down other work if it conflicts. A regular guest is one who can take whatever works suits them. Samantha Smith could've taken another role on another show this season and suddenly been unavailable, Mark Pelligrino could not.

I have been using the terms regular and reoccurring but that's just the way I differentiate.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I also don't think Mark Sheppard is actually gone from the show. They may have killed off our Crowley--or not--but there's also the alternative version of him too. I think everyone's being too coy about it. I fully expect Mark Sheppard back on the show, just like I fully expect Misha back.

We will find out eventually. Personally, I think Mark ( and probably Ruth) are gone but Misha comes back. They would be insane to lose Misha. He has a HUGE fan base.

[Bessie]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I also don't think Mark Sheppard is actually gone from the show. They may have killed off our Crowley--or not--but there's also the alternative version of him too. I think everyone's being too coy about it. I fully expect Mark Sheppard back on the show, just like I fully expect Misha back.

Do you know if Crowley or Sheppard were mentioned at this most recent convention?  I haven't read anything about the character or actor. I kinda feel bad for Sheppard that Crowley's death has been completely overshadowed. Although, that also makes me think that maybe you're right. I mean, would the writers not want to showcase Crowley's death instead of jamming it in with all these other deaths?  I think they would, so maybe he's not dead either.  Although of all the regular/reoccurring actors, Sheppard seems likely to be the one with the most options, acting-wise, outside of Supernatural.  

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bessie

[Dobian]

I think both Crowley and Castiel are going to be brought back to life next season.  Death is almost meaningless on this show anyway, anyone can be brought back one way or another, and even when they're dead they're still running around in some afterlife dimension.  If Mark Sheppard isn't coming back, bad move, show.  Crowley was versatile, he could play the villain or the good guy.  Lucifer, though, is completely one-dimensional.  Pellegrino is funny, but the character is a one trick pony.  So is anyone excited about a "Jack" season?  Because that's going to be the big story arc.  It's been said he looks like a young Matt Damon.  It all depends on how good the actor is who plays him and how they write him.  If they turn him into Connor from Angel then next season will be an unmitigated disaster.

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think if what/whoever that is laying on the ground isn't dead dead, it's a huge insult to every other angel death we've seen. White light - well we saw Cas begin to lose some when Alistair was exorcizing* him back to heaven in OTHOAP (remember back when only an angel could kill another angel? *sigh*). But Sam stopped Alistair and Cas recovered. But burned out wings have always signaled the end of an angel, each and every time. I'm okay with it being an AUCas that was killed, but if it was indeed an angel, then he should be dead - short of Chuck himself resurrecting him.

I'm not going to be happy with an 'oh, that was just an illusion/mind-fuck courtesy of Luci or Luci Jr., either. I know they really DGAF about canon when it suits, but damnit, some things should be untouchable - and burned out wings = dead angel should be one of them.

I'll be profoundly happy and dance a jig if they have Cas survive.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think if what/whoever that is laying on the ground isn't dead dead, it's a huge insult to every other angel death we've seen.

I don't think anyone is suggesting whoever that is didn't actually die. I know I'm not. I'm suggesting that the spawn could resurrect whoever that is laying dead on the ground or that it wasn't our Cass to begin with.

Actually, a funny twist could be that God put a permanent resurrection spell in Cass at the end of S5 similar to Rowena's spell she put in her leg. Maybe God realized Cass needed to exist just like Sam and Dean and just decided he didn't want to have to follow the angel around all the time. ;)

Okay, funny is maybe not the right word, but I did make me laugh.

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Do you know if Crowley or Sheppard were mentioned at this most recent convention?  I haven't read anything about the character or actor. I kinda feel bad for Sheppard that Crowley's death has been completely overshadowed. Although, that also makes me think that maybe you're right. I mean, would the writers not want to showcase Crowley's death instead of jamming it in with all these other deaths?  I think they would, so maybe he's not dead either.  Although of all the regular/recurring actors, Sheppard seems likely to be the one with the most options, acting-wise, outside of Supernatural.  

Sheppard wasn't at the most recent convention, so it's hard to tell at this point. I haven't ran across any big mentions of Crowley, but I've only watched a handful of videos. I expect we'll have a better picture after some future cons where Mark is in attendance. Although, the little shit is a huge troll, so maybe we won't. ;)

 

ETA: It could also be TPTB are playing reverse-reverse psychology on us. Or is it reverse-reverse-reverse psychology? ;)

Edited May 22, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Do you know if Crowley or Sheppard were mentioned at this most recent convention?  I haven't read anything about the character or actor. I kinda feel bad for Sheppard that Crowley's death has been completely overshadowed.

This is what makes me upset. Same about Ruth. These two are pretty much forgotten with the Case death or not death. I just think it was kind of a jerk move on Dabbs part.

[Pondlass1]

Whatever form he takes - Cas will return next season.  He holds a huge chunk of fandom.  TPTB aren't stupid and ratings and money are the reason the show is on the air.  I just hope how they resurrect Cas isn't stupid and WTF.

On the other hand, I hope Mary eats a taco that tastes funny and stays dead. 

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I mean, would the writers not want to showcase Crowley's death instead of jamming it in with all these other deaths?  

But if everybody comes back, that reaches the point of absurdity on resurrections. Or if only Ruth stays dead (off screen and totally overshadowed) that's also a jerk move by Dabb.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But if everybody comes back, that reaches the point of absurdity on resurrections. Or if only Ruth stays dead (off screen and totally overshadowed) that's also a jerk move by Dabb.

So agree with this. If either Crowley or Rowena are truly dead (in any iteration), as in the actor is gone from the show, then yeah, total dick move on the showrunners' part.

Hey, maybe this was the meta Dabb was talking about. Being dead on Supernatural is pretty much a running joke at this point - maybe they staged this Red-Wedding style mass murder/suicide as wink-wink-nudge-nudge to fandom and S13 is going to open with wide-shot showing us this was all just another high-school play, only starring Jensen Ackles, Jared Padalecki, Misha....

Edited May 22, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But if everybody comes back, that reaches the point of absurdity on resurrections. 

Didn't they already cross the threshold on resurrection-absurdity like five seasons ago?

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that killing off all three characters and then bringing them all back would be a bit ridiculous.  As much as I enjoy Mark and Ruth, I hope they don't do that.  And Crowley is a thousand times more interesting than Lucifer.  He's like a bratty child throwing a tantrum, and it's no longer fun to watch.  At least not for me.  

So is Jack going to be played by some young hottie to bring in the younger crowd again?  SPN's audience has aged right along with the show, and Jared and Jensen are now the old men on the CW.  I think Dabb is trying to change the show in a way that Jared and Jensen could leave, and the show could still go on without them.  So he'll get his spinoff just by morphing SPN into something completely different from what it used to be.  I'm not happy about that, but they don't normally consult with me on these decisions.  I'll stick around for Jensen, Jared and Misha, and we'll see what happens in another year or so.  

There was a lot of talk this con from Jared specifically about doing shorter seasons.  I'm sure they're trying to evaluate just how much longer they want to continue, and shorter seasons might make that a lot easier.  There are a lot of ways they could go that could be really amazing, but I don't have a lot of confidence in Dabb to give me what I want.

[The Morning Star]

Crowley and Rowena are dead and any resurrection of them by God would make no sense as they are for all inttends and purposes villains.

Alternate Crowley and Rowena aren't out of question although since Smith and Pellegrino are to "probably" become prominent characters, It makes sense for them to remove Sheppard and Connell from payroll.

Honestly, Crowley was a character that  even though I enjoyed, couldn't figure out  the purpose for since S6 and Rowena was too cartoonish for my taste so no complaints there for me.

Edited May 22, 2017 by The Morning Star

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Didn't they already cross the threshold on resurrection-absurdity like five seasons ago?

But at least it was individual if I remember right. This would be a "mass rising".

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Crowley is a thousand times more interesting than Lucifer.  He's like a bratty child throwing a tantrum, and it's no longer fun to watch.  At least not for me.  

 

I so agree with this. Anything after 5 was annoying. The Luci in Sam's head was so not scary for me. And not funny either. Just annoying. And it hasn't gotten any better.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

So is Jack going to be played by some young hottie to bring in the younger crowd again?  SPN's audience has aged right along with the show, and Jared and Jensen are now the old men on the CW.  I think Dabb is trying to change the show in a way that Jared and Jensen could leave, and the show could still go on without them.  So he'll get his spinoff just by morphing SPN into something completely different from what it used to be.  I'm not happy about that, but they don't normally consult with me on these decisions.  I'll stick around for Jensen, Jared and Misha, and we'll see what happens in another year or so.  

That's where I'm at. If it gets any worse I won't watch live. I think I would have a hard time quitting completely though as long as Jensen has any screen time. One scene like the one in Mary's head or the convo with Chuck leaves me in awe of the acting.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

There was a lot of talk this con from Jared specifically about doing shorter seasons.  I'm sure they're trying to evaluate just how much longer they want to continue, and shorter seasons might make that a lot easier.  There are a lot of ways they could go that could be really amazing, but I don't have a lot of confidence in Dabb to give me what I want.

I kind of hope they do that for a while after the 23 season episodes end. Course then I remember Dabb?

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

It's not that I'm trying to dash your hopes, but I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for people to brace themselves for AU!Cas instead of Cas.  His death might have been quick and unexpected in the moment, but I think Cas got a pretty good season-long send off.  We got to see in the Lily Sunder episode how much he's changed by knowing the Winchesters.  We saw his goodbye to them in 12.12.  We saw how much they mean to him and vice versa.  We had him die while trying for a win that he hasn't had in a really long time.  We got a Twig!Alicia that could be a parallel to AU!Cas or anyone else in the AU if that's the way you want to see it.  We have Misha saying we'll get some version of Cas next season.  Then he immediately brings up the AU.  Does that mean that Cas will stay gone?  I don't know.  Possibly not, because the other characters on Supernatural who have died and been brought back different have been 'fixed' after a time, but I wouldn't expect it until half way through the season or the end of the season if it's going to happen at all.

I totally disagree that Cas had a good send off if this is his true death. Yes we got a lot of great Dean/Cas bonding and love declarations to all the  Winchesters several episodes ago in a fake out near death but even that death Cas wasn't even able to put up a good fight against Ramiel who could just smite him with his hand but instead used the Michael sword to cause him great suffering before he died.

Then Cas'  final act with the Winchesters was to steal the Colt right out from under their noses, boop them into unconsciousness and take off with Kelly and the Nepheilim. Yes they did  catch up with him and Dean says we'll get through the crap like they always do. That's not sufficient for this viewer.

But even that moment is undercut because suddenly Cas, who wasn't supposed to go  back through the portal a 3rd time,  does something stupid which is try to kill Lucifer with his regular angel blade which Cas knows cannot kill an archangel. And then apparently doesn't bother to make sure Lucifer is really most sincerely dead in the AU. Cas is a better soldier than that. That is a rookie mistake he would not make.And for this viewer, that would be a wholly terrible and dramatically unsatisfactory death of a mostly beloved character. Therefore I call ALL the shenanigans and there is much more to this than meets the eye.

I don't know when we will see Real Cas again but I fully think we will and he will be back on TFW.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I totally disagree that Cas had a good send off if this is his true death. Yes we got a lot of great Dean/Cas bonding and love declarations to all the  Winchesters several episodes ago in a fake out near death but even that death Cas wasn't even able to put up a good fight against Ramiel who could just smite him with his hand but instead used the Michael sword to cause him great suffering before he died.

Then Cas'  final act with the Winchesters was to steal the Colt right out from under their noses, boop them into unconsciousness and take off with Kelly and the Nepheilim. Yes they did  catch up with him and Dean says we'll get through the crap like they always do. That's not sufficient for this viewer.

But even that moment is undercut because suddenly Cas, who wasn't supposed to go  back through the portal a 3rd time,  does something stupid which is try to kill Lucifer with his regular angel blade which Cas knows cannot kill an archangel. And then apparently doesn't bother to make sure Lucifer is really most sincerely dead in the AU. Cas is a better soldier than that. That is a rookie mistake he would not make.And for this viewer, that would be a wholly terrible and dramatically unsatisfactory death of a mostly beloved character. Therefore I call ALL the shenanigans and there is much more to this than meets the eye.

I don't know when we will see Real Cas again but I fully think we will and he will be back on TFW.

Responding in the unpopular opinions thread.  :)

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

This is not just hope--that is clearly reading it

I think you are assuming Misha knows Cas's fate. The writers have barely put pen to paper on s13, and he definitely won't have seen a script. He will know, because its contractual, whether he is a regular next season. If he isn't he will have vague idea whether they will at some point want him. 

The writers / Dabb may not have even decided yet what Cas's fate is.

[CluelessDrifter]

17 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think you are assuming Misha knows Cas's fate. The writers have barely put pen to paper on s13, and he definitely won't have seen a script. He will know, because its contractual, whether he is a regular next season. If he isn't he will have vague idea whether they will at some point want him. 

The writers / Dabb may not have even decided yet what Cas's fate is.

That's true.  It could be read, like he knows he'll be back next season, but he doesn't know what kind of a Cas he'll be playing.  It could be Cas that's been changed by his death.  It could be an alternate universe Cas, just some iteration of Cas, because he knows he'll be back.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

That's true.  It could be read, like he knows he'll be back next season, but he doesn't know what kind of a Cas he'll be playing.  It could be Cas that's been changed by his death.  It could be an alternate universe Cas, just some iteration of Cas, because he knows he'll be back.

This. This is all we are sure of.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think you are assuming Misha knows Cas's fate. The writers have barely put pen to paper on s13, and he definitely won't have seen a script. He will know, because its contractual, whether he is a regular next season. If he isn't he will have vague idea whether they will at some point want him. 

The writers / Dabb may not have even decided yet what Cas's fate is.

I seem to remember J2M talking in the past about having discussions with showrunners/writers before the writers officially put pen to paper about their ideas for the upcoming season, in a general "Hey this is where we are intending to go with the story for next season". I think it is very likely that J2M already know more than they can say especially since it's already known something was filmed for s13, if unclear all of who was involved. I don't think Jared necessarily only meant the Scooby episode.

Also, Jensen is directing this year and if things go as they have in the past Jensen will be filming his episode first even if it doesn't air first. Seems to me, at minimum, Jensen will likely have knowledge of the first 3 episodes of s13 even if he doesn't have the full scripts in his hands now.  He'll certainly know by mid June I would think considering he'll need to go to Vancouver at the end of June to start prepping.  He could direct later in the season which seems unlikely but not impossible.

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I seem to remember J2M talking in the past about having discussions with showrunners/writers before the writers officially put pen to paper about their ideas for the upcoming season, in a general "Hey this is where we are intending to go with the story for next season". I think it is very likely that J2M already know more than they can say especially since it's already known something was filmed for s13, if unclear all of who was involved. I don't think Jared necessarily only meant the Scooby episode.

Also, Jensen is directing this year and if things go as they have in the past Jensen will be filming his episode first even if it doesn't air first. Seems to me, at minimum, Jensen will likely have knowledge of the first 3 episodes of s13 even if he doesn't have the full scripts in his hands now.  He'll certainly know by mid June I would think considering he'll need to go to Vancouver at the end of June to start prepping.  He could direct later in the season which seems unlikely but not impossible.

I understood he decided not to direct because the timing interfered with his business's opening. This came out of JIB apparently.

[Diane]

14 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I understood he decided not to direct because the timing interfered with his business's opening. This came out of JIB apparently.

Do you have a link to that, I have been watching the panels and reading the twitter feed, I haven't seen that.

[Idahoforspn]

16 minutes ago, Diane said:

Do you have a link to that, I have been watching the panels and reading the twitter feed, I haven't seen that.

I was in a couple of Twitter feeds I follow. I don't know the protocol for sharing Twitter feeds so suffice it to say that it came thru on a couple but I can't guarantee accuracy. I hope he directs personally.