S02.E12: Paradise Lost

[Yolapukka]

I've given up trying to interpret the wig-stand's facial expressions. She's such a blank, reactive character that I feel like the position of the camera and editing choices are more significant than whether Katia Winter's nose twitches or if she furrows her brow.

Edited January 6, 2015 by yuggapukka

[johntfs]

It's an insult to Corbin's memory and to Abbie to suggest Abbie would in any way be okay with Abraham going free or become and allied with him. The show has taken pains, through flashbacks to show just how much Corbin meant to Abbie and how devastating his loss was to her. That she would just forgive Abraham for his death and get on board with restoring his humanity is ludricrous. That they expect the audience to get on board with redemption and forget that Headless Abraham murdered Corbin and others is even more insulting.

 

This is quite true and it was clearly shown last night that Abbie continues to rightfully blame Abraham for Ccorbin's murder.  That said, the various other means of disposing of the Horseman of Death are either unavailable (Sword of Methuselah) or worse (Orion kills him and claims his powers).  If Abbie is okay with the idea of "redeeming" Abraham it's only because that removes the Horseman of Death from the board (and it makes Abraham mortal, which means she can shoot him to death if he screws with her and those she loves).

 

Personally, I love the idea of Katrina wanting to redeem Abraham because I think it's going to crater in a spectacular fashion since Katrina is deluding herself (along with those listening to her).  It was clear to me that in the last episode Henry was mostly okay with sacrificing his mother (he'd already done it to bring Moloch into the physical world).  It was only the parallels that Ichabod drew with the story of (the actual, Biblical) Abraham and Isaac that let Henry see how Moloch cared nothing for him and caused him to slay Moloch instead of Ichabod.  In truth we really don't know the full fallout of that situation either.  Given the deal with Orion's halo, it's quite possible that Henry has absorbed Moloch's power and become a full demon lord on earth and thus becom both powerful and corrupt beyond measure.

 

Henry is basically an overgrown child who was manipulated into his position by an ancient evil demon-god.  Abraham was an adult who chose to accept.  Abraham also doesn't want to simply act in a heroic manner.  He wants to be recognized as the hero.  He's pissed because he thinks Ichabod stole his role during "the audition."  Ultimately, Katrina has it wrong.  You don't turn into a murderous, evil shit by choosing to be a Horseman.  You become eligible to turn into a Horseman by being a murderous, evil shit.

[HalcyonDays]

Forgot to mention this earlier. Laughed at the fact that in the Mason cell, there were four large industrial lights mounted above Abraham, but the perimeter of the room was filled with glowing candles. Beautiful for filming and ambiance, but the blatant fire hazard made me chuckle.

 

Abbie was insulted when Crane said she should get married. Abbie's not the type to need the affirmation of a man to be a complete person, which is one reason I love the character. She's a bad ass PERSON. Not every woman needs a man to make her life fulfilled.

 

Here, here! 18th century man, meet 21st century woman. Marriage isn't the be all, end all goal of any woman's life. I just loved her response.

[DeLurker]

 

Henry is basically an overgrown child who was manipulated into his position by an ancient evil demon-god.  Abraham was an adult who chose to accept.

They indicated that Abraham "chose" to be the Horseman on last night's dialogue, but that is very different than how I remember it (see excerpt that follows from the S1 Ep 8).

 

The idea that the Horseman retains a shred of humanity, of sentiment, is not my problem with last night's revelation that, after all, the Horseman isn't Death -- or isn't just Death, but rather is Abraham "Brom Bones" Van Brunt. Katrina dumped Van Brunt for Crane, and Van Brunt pitched a sulk about it during a messenger hike with Crane, and then Crane made the mistake of asking for Van Brunt's blessing for him to go out with Katrina, like, it's the next day, bro. So Van Brunt challenged him to a duel, Crane tried to avoid it, and then while that's going on, Van Brunt gets winged with a musket ball and the Leather Mask Polo Team gallops up, brands him, and slaps a faceplate on him. The upshot? Van Brunt sold his soul to Moloch in exchange for Katrina and a player to be named later.

 

With someone with a better memory than I clearly have clarify where Abraham had a choice? 

[FormerMod-a1]

I remember thinking after the original episode that it was a choice.  I even joked on the forum (probably TWoP at the time) about Moloch going up to people on their death bed and asking "Hey, you want to be Death?"  followed by "You'll be immortal".  And given he was about to die anyway, that last part might be enough to sway someone.  But I do also believe, in more seriousness, that most (if not all) good people would turn that down.  I wouldn't want to be a henchman of the devil or a devil.  So I think there is something to the theory that you have already be leaning towards evil, at least in your heart if not your actions, to actually choose and become a horseman.

[Snookums]

I like your optimism but based on this show's history. Crane would probably spend the next season pining over his lost love and trying to redeem her as she callously tortures his friends and plots against humanity...

 

 

 

OH, YUCKS. Katrina 2.0!

 

The idea that the Horseman retains a shred of humanity, of sentiment, is not my problem with last night's revelation that, after all, the Horseman isn't Death -- or isn't just Death, but rather is Abraham "Brom Bones" Van Brunt. Katrina dumped Van Brunt for Crane, and Van Brunt pitched a sulk about it during a messenger hike with Crane, and then Crane made the mistake of asking for Van Brunt's blessing for him to go out with Katrina, like, it's the next day, bro. So Van Brunt challenged him to a duel, Crane tried to avoid it, and then while that's going on, Van Brunt gets winged with a musket ball and the Leather Mask Polo Team gallops up, brands him, and slaps a faceplate on him. The upshot? Van Brunt sold his soul to Moloch in exchange for Katrina and a player to be named later.

 

 

 

 

THIS THIS THIS SO MUCH. I remember the depth of the astonishment I felt during that scene, where Ichabod goes from "Abe, I get you're pissed but we're on a top secret mission" to "Katrina and I are in wuv twu wuv and want your blessing" in like, one line. DUDE. No matter how mystic and destiny your passion is and how much of a tool Abraham is, he's still pretty ruffled at being dumped the night before. Maybe hold off on that whole thing for when you're not on top secret mission in enemy territory? Maybe? That put me pretty much on Abraham's side, temporarily. Until he grew his head and used it to whine endlessly.

 

And yes, the entire scene went down as described. Abraham wasn't offered anything, didn't make a choice about his new career path, he was just press-ganged into being one of the Apocalypse Team mascots. Maybe he was vulnerable because he was angry and upset, but hell, if that was the only criterion Team Apocalypse could have found plenty of people without roaming around in the woods. 

 

And if they'd just played it as "Abraham had no choice and was shanghaied because our decisions left him vulnerable, albeit in a way we couldn't have imagined" this whole ringamarole would make a lot more sense plotwise.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Snookums

[savinggrace]

Even if Katrina is ignoring the numerous murders committed by Abraham is she forgetting that he took her forcefully and held her captive? He showed himself to be entitled and temperamental before he became a horseman. I don't think redemption is going to change those qualities. Will his obsession with her end? Is she going to offer herself up to him? What's exactly is her plan?

[DearEvette]

Abbie was insulted when Crane said she should get married. Abbie's not the type to need the affirmation of a man to be a complete person, which is one reason I love the character. She's a bad ass PERSON. Not every woman needs a man to make her life fulfilled.

 

 

Here, here! 18th century man, meet 21st century woman. Marriage isn't the be all, end all goal of any woman's life. I just loved her response.

 

 

Letting your hair down, flirting lightly with someone, having a work life balance that possibly includes romance or even sex does not equal needing affirmation or even marriage.  It is rather glaring if everyone on the show but Abbie is allowed to develop this aspect of of characterization.

Edited January 6, 2015 by DearEvette

[wayne67]

It's like Katrina thinks the Avatar of Death wanted to lobotomise her free will to have a love slave... Katrina news flash that was your jealous obsessive ex not a demon...

 

I was curious whether seperating Abraham from his demonic Avatar would result in us having the much more interesting and diabolical headless Headless full time. That way they could strip away the Horseman of Death's boring backstory and replace it with pure evil. We could have an actual VILLAIN with no possibility of redemption who gathers an army of lesser demons under his banner.

 

Unfortunately this would probably mean that Team Witness would spend the whole time adjusting to a whinging Abraham and an untrustworthy and useless Katrina as a couple while Crane broods and Abby tries to smack some sense into him.

Edited January 6, 2015 by wayne67

[savinggrace]

I hope Abbie gets promoted. Once Abraham is redeemed and she's footing the bill for three colonials she's gonna need some more dough.

[Writing Wrongs]

When I think of all the people Abbie has lost to this evil: Corbin, her mom, John Cho, ex-boyfriend cop guy, Irving (sort of)- it insults me that Ichabod gets to keep Katrina and now possibly his best friend. If Katrina gets her way Ichabod, Henry, Abraham and her will live happily ever after and Abbie will end up with squat. They need to balance shit out.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Writing Wrongs

[savinggrace]

I just realized the fact that Katrina was able to get Abraham to pinky swear that he wouldn't kill anyone while she attempted the separation spell is pretty fair evidence that he has free agency and control over whether he kills. Abraham wasn't forced or under any influence --it was all choice yet he's a candidate for redemption.

Another thing that bothered me --and demonstrating more writer laziness. Jenny and Hawley bust open the magic egg and discover where the demons and Headless are. They look horrified, OH NO! And then... do nothing? We never see them again for the rest of the episode. That's so unlike Jenny. She would have made Hawley drive her to the carriage house to help Abbie. I agree with others that the scene may have been tacked on after the fact to establish that Hawley is now into Jenny or to remedy all the fans' complaints bout Jenny's absence.

Edited January 6, 2015 by savinggrace

[Helena Dax]

What happens to Abraham's headless situation if he gets separated from the Horseman? Does he get another one?

[HalcyonDays]

The whole thing with Abraham having a choice to become the Horseman of Death is such a fine line. I don't think he was actively evil at all, just a jealous person. There are lots of people out there like that. The fact that he was dumped the night before, then Crane, being the idiot he is, asks his best friend for this blessing the day after, I was like 'The hell? Seriously, you are the worst friend ever." I know he was trying to be honorouble I guess, but dude, wait a week or so.

 

But I don't believe that Abraham deliberate chose it - I think Moloch and co used the moment of weakness and his pretty much dying right there, to get him to be Horseman. The guy was shot, and three seconds later, the Hessians come galloping in, and boom, they are shaving his head and dressing him in Hessian-wear.

 

I never thought of it as 'Hey Abraham, wanna be the Horseman of Death?" "Uh...*thinks* yeah, sure, what the heck..." scenario. To me, it was more of a rash, in the heat of the moment decision, coupled with his anger at being dumped by his fiance, and betrayed by his best friend, and bleeding out from being shot. I think that's why I want to see him redeemed. He may have been an ass in life, but he isn't wasn't the murderous psychopath that Henry is. Just my view of it.

[FormerMod-a1]

I just realized the fact that Katrina was able to get Abraham to pinky swear that he wouldn't kill anyone while she attempted the separation spell is pretty fair evidence that he has free agency and control over whether he kills. Abraham wasn't forced or under any influence --it was all choice yet he's a candidate for redemption.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate a bit here...  Maybe w/o Moloch he has a choice?  Since Moloch made him Death, he seemed to have control over him.  Moloch would command him to do something and he'd do it.  We even saw him do that to Henry even when Henry didn't want to.  Of course, Henry did end up killing Moloch so if they really tried or reached deep down it seems they could refuse.  But then they'd probably die, for real die.  I don't know.  Maybe it was just harder to have free will with their creator/Moloch alive.  Either way, I do think Abraham wanted revenge and/or power more than he cared about being good or human.

[saber5055]

 

Letting your hair down, flirting lightly with someone, having a work life balance that possibly includes romance or even sex does not equal needing affirmation or even marriage.  It is rather glaring if everyone on the show but Abbie is allowed to develop this aspect of of characterization.

Flirting or having a one-night stand isn't in every woman's wheelhouse as a definition of "letting your hair down." Some would rather work out at the gym, go for a run, lift weights ... heck, eat Hagen Daaz and watch Sleepy Hollow. Having a boy toy doesn't mean work-life balance for everyone. We got to see Abbie FINALLY go back to work. About time! For some, work IS life.

 

 

I hope Abbie gets promoted. Once Abraham is redeemed and she's footing the bill for three colonials she's gonna need some more dough.

No sh*t Sherlock! Loved it when Abbie told Crane (or vice versa) that he'd have to get a job and a place to live. It stinks when real life rears its ugly head!

[FormerMod-a1]

I never thought of it as 'Hey Abraham, wanna be the Horseman of Death?" "Uh...*thinks* yeah, sure, what the heck..." scenario. To me, it was more of a rash, in the heat of the moment decision, coupled with his anger at being dumped by his fiance, and betrayed by his best friend, and bleeding out from being shot. I think that's why I want to see him redeemed. He may have been an ass in life, but he isn't wasn't the murderous psychopath that Henry is. Just my view of it.

(emphasis mine) 

 

That's basically how I saw it too, but it was still a decision.  I never said I thought he mulled it over for a while.  He was on death's door, Moloch offered him horsemanship and he took it w/o much thought.  But I do think  he could have said no and would have been left to die.  I don't think Moloch was going around to all near dead people, but people ripe for the picking so to speak.  Desperate, hurt, betrayed, whatever and Abraham fit the bill and Abraham said yes in the heat of the moment.

[savinggrace]

Playing Devil's Advocate a bit here...  Maybe w/o Moloch he has a choice?  Since Moloch made him Death, he seemed to have control over him.  Moloch would command him to do something and he'd do it.  We even saw him do that to Henry even when Henry didn't want to.  Of course, Henry did end up killing Moloch so if they really tried or reached deep down it seems they could refuse.  But then they'd probably die, for real die.  I don't know.  Maybe it was just harder to have free will with their creator/Moloch alive.  Either way, I do think Abraham wanted revenge and/or power more than he cared about being good or human.

That's actually a good point but Moloch hadn't risen yet when Headless went on his rampage during the 1st season. Was Moloch able to exercise control from purgatory?

[HalcyonDays]

(emphasis mine) 

 

That's basically how I saw it too, but it was still a decision.  I never said I thought he mulled it over for a while.  He was on death's door, Moloch offered him horsemanship and he took it w/o much thought.  But I do think  he could have said no and would have been left to die.  I don't think Moloch was going around to all near dead people, but people ripe for the picking so to speak.  Desperate, hurt, betrayed, whatever and Abraham fit the bill and Abraham said yes in the heat of the moment.

 

That's why I don't think he should be condemned for this. People do stupid things all the time, and in this case, he was faced with actual Death. People get scared, plead for their lives. On top of that, Abraham didn't have time to read the "contract" or even fully understand what the Horseman of Death's job duties would entail. There was no time (I just stole Katrina's oft-repeated line!). That's why he doesn't necessarily deserve the consequences of his actions at the moment of duress (basically dying). For all we know, Moloch said to him  - "Hey, wanna live forever? Join me!", Abe says yeah, and then Moloch is like 'Ha Ha, fool! I dub thee Horseman of Death."

 

Yeah, he could have said no - but we don't know fully what he said YES to. Evil tricks people all of the time. And Abe's been on an angry rampage ever since. I would be. Problem is we just don't know, unfortunately.

[wayne67]

What happens to Abraham's headless situation if he gets separated from the Horseman? Does he get another one?

 

That could make for some unintentional dark comedy. Katrina does the spell correctly but fails to appreciate the ramifications of her actions, similar to when she extended Crane's life and unintentionally prolonged Death's life as well. This time she'd succeed in seperating Abraham and the Horseman... and end up with a decapitated Abraham and a more evil Headless Horseman who really is an implacable killer.

I could get behind Abraham was tricked into being the Horseman of Death or was desperate but by virtue of the Season 1 finale where he got Katrina as his consolation prize I have to disagree on his redemption arc.

 

Abraham was responsible for keeping Katrina as his captive and has had no apparent remorse for his actions EVER.

 

If he really had been 'freed' after Moloch's 'death' and was a good person deep down he should have shown some regret for the deaths he caused instead Katrina appealed to his 'love' and Crane appealed to his ego. Of course he could be worthy of redemption but I've seen nothing to indicate his desire to be redeemed.

 

Katrina wants him redeemed to ease her conscience for jilting him. That's it. That's not something I can get behind as his actions speak loudly against his redemption.

 

As for Henry if they just took care of the issue or had him locked up before he demon impregnated his mother than maybe I could get behind his redemption .

 

Sadly none of the people they've tried to redeem have been worth the effort.

 

The only person that was worthy of redemption was Sherrif Corbin's son who was truly innocent of his crimes as he was turned against his will and didn't have any idea what was going on.

[netlyon2]

The Sigh:

-Headless with a Head.  So over it.

- Soapy Hollow.  Abbie has become Dear Abbie advising ichabod to talk to his wife and listening to his marriage woes

 

The Bad:

- Once again Ichabod shown in he middle of and mediating an argument bt Abbie & Katrina.  Sends a terrible message, imo showing the women fighting for his approval & support.

Headed Headless is so whack.  I couldn't help but compare the captive Abraham scenes in this episode with the ones from Necromancer.  No comparison:  the anger and violence are just roiling off of chained up, hexed Headless.  I was constantly worried that he was going to escape and wreak havoc.  With Abraham, I just roll my eyes and take a nap until Abbie's back on screen.

 

I was actually okay, though, with the "Dear Abbie" scene because it wasn't really about Katrina.  In many ways, it was another scene of Abbie helping Ichabod to deal with his difficult circumstances.  Plus, their conversation was about his feelings and his comfort level, not about how awesome Katrina is.  Now, if Abbie could just have a personal life so he could return the favor. . . .

 

I definitely felt that way about it in the previous episode when the subject of killing Henry really got heated.  This time, though, it felt more to me that Ichabod was actually trying to process rather than mediating the mud-wrasslin' wimmen.  In fact, it reminded me a lot of Sansa Stark in Game of Thrones (mild spoiler for the book and GOT Season 1): 

When Arya attacks Joffrey for picking on Micah, Sansa splits the difference by pretending that she couldn't remember what happened.  A lot of fans despised her for betraying her sister, but the text (rightly, IMO) points out that she couldn't safely defend Arya so she made the choice to not make a choice.  Ichabod's actions strike me as similar, although the personal stakes for him are much lower and he's a grown-ass man, not a terrified pre-teen.

 

 

 

[snip]It's an insult to Corbin's memory and to Abbie to suggest Abbie would in any way be okay with Abraham going free or become and allied with him. The show has taken pains, through flashbacks to show just how much Corbin meant to Abbie and how devastating his loss was to her. That she would just forgive Abraham for his death and get on board with restoring his humanity is ludricrous. That they expect the audience to get on board with redemption and forget that Headless Abraham murdered Corbin and others is even more insulting.

This was driving me insane!  I loved Abbie calling out that Abraham/Headless murdered her father-figure right in front of her.  In my head-canon, she also said this:  "Katrina, I know you know who Corbin was because you are surrounded by pictures of him on a regular basis.  However, since you seem to value your own redemption via Abraham more than you do the lives of Corbin and the others who were murdered by the Horseman (including your friend, Rev. Knapp), kindly change into your hospital clothes and get the hell up out of Corbin's house.  Also, please leave all the crap you bought at Hot Topic with my credit card; I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it, but I'm sure there's a tween Goth who would love it.  Now, scram!"

 

Ultimately, Katrina has it wrong.  You don't turn into a murderous, evil shit by choosing to be a Horseman.  You become eligible to turn into a Horseman by being a murderous, evil shit.

Pretty much. 

 

I just realized the fact that Katrina was able to get Abraham to pinky swear that he wouldn't kill anyone while she attempted the separation spell is pretty fair evidence that he has free agency and control over whether he kills. Abraham wasn't forced or under any influence --it was all choice yet he's a candidate for redemption.

Also, the first thing he does after so pinky-swearing is to make himself a shiny new souped-up axe!  Now, Katrina can be all "I'm soooo glad he had a true weapon with which to defend himself from the Evil Angel," but, gurl, don't fool yourself into thinking that he made an axe just in case he needed to fight against an angry angel who's been holding a battlefield grudge for 200+ years.  There ain't enough "just in case" in the world.

 

I never thought of it as 'Hey Abraham, wanna be the Horseman of Death?" "Uh...*thinks* yeah, sure, what the heck..." scenario. To me, it was more of a rash, in the heat of the moment decision, coupled with his anger at being dumped by his fiance, and betrayed by his best friend, and bleeding out from being shot. I think that's why I want to see him redeemed. He may have been an ass in life, but he isn't wasn't the murderous psychopath that Henry is. Just my view of it.

If the show hadn't already put such a bad taste in my mouth regarding redemption, I would totally be down for seeing Abraham work through his own anger and issues, perhaps being influenced by Katrina to question whether he can atone for what he has done.  She could be his catalyst, his very own gypsy curse + Whistler, but he would have to be the one who takes action.  If done well, I think it would feel natural for Abbie to eventually stomach dealing with him as an ally.

 

HOWEVER, this show has not "done well" in a while.  And in reality, they're not interested in telling the story of Abraham trying to redeem himself; they want to tell the story of Katrina trying to redeem Abraham because she's a awesomesuperspecialwonderfulgreatpowerfulwitch.  Stories about redemption resonate when they focus on and are driven by the person trying to be redeemed, not that person's self-absorbed, entitled, whispery ex-fiancée.

[netlyon2]

That's actually a good point but Moloch hadn't risen yet when Headless went on his rampage during the 1st season. Was Moloch able to exercise control from purgatory?

Moloch was able to control things to a certain extent.  My understanding was that Headless was following the general plan, but adding his own taunting flourishes (like decapitating the Masons because Ichabod wouldn't give up his head).  However, Necromancer is the point when Abraham's rage at being duped and captured by Team Witness drives him to reveal his identity and fight Ichabod.  Moloch intervened to orchestrate the prison bust (via the Hessians and Undead Andy), but he also had his minions stay the hand of the Horseman when Headless was all ready to end Ichabod once and for all.  Andy specifically said that their master didn't want Ichabod to die yet (although, at that point I was so fed up with Ichabod's sloppy, chest-beating, patriarchal, high-handed, pissing-match-fueled asshattery that I was almost rooting for Headless to at least hurt him).

Edited January 7, 2015 by netlyon2

[catrice2]

Is it just me or did Icabod seem a little shifty when asked about Henry? I think something happened between him and Henry...but then again I didn't watch closely. Wasn't he the first one awakened to realize that Henry was gone?

 

As a fan of the handsomeness of Max Brown, I was sadly disappointed. Somehow they managed to make him look less attractive, and OF COURSE he had to be evil or a lunatic.  I was lead to believe that he was going to be an ally to Abbie and Icabod, and that he was going to be in more than one episode. His dialogue was terrible, the effects for his wings were terrible, and the whole story was just terrible.

 

Haven't they learned anything (Henry) about taking strangers into their prisons, private book / research rooms etc. until they can learn more about them?  Yeah, we are fighting demons and witches and whatever, but we still just believe everything some new person shows up and tells us!

 

I am really disappointed in this season and was hoping for a second half recovery.

[vanarnd1]

I am conflicted about this episode. I feel like the show tried to address fan concerns within this episode, but they still missed the mark on some things IMO. I can appreciate that that Katrina was finally shown to be in the wrong for a change, but that just means she still had plenty of screen time and the CFD has been modified to include Abraham instead of Henry, and I am not sure if that will be any more entertaining.  I almost did a double take when Katrina said she was owed a favor for the help she provided the witnesses, it was such a ridiculous statement and I still don't know how we are supposed to take her seriously as a character. Until Ichabod stops waffling back and forth about his feelings, I think we will keep seeing the same conversations played out over and over again.

 

I liked that Abbie seemed to finally be fed up with Katrina and expressed herself to that end. It was even briefly refreshing to have someone like Orion that share her views, but I didn't like how he was exposed so quickly as being untrustworthy. It seemed like it was done to have Abbie be wrong about something, so the Ichabbie apology at the end would be mutual and Katrina could be given credit. I think the writers were trying to say that Abbie and Ichabod are "even" now and I don't think that is really fair considering everything that has happened and the choices Ichabod has made since the season 1 finale.

 

I liked the Jenny/Hawley scenes, and that Frank is back in the loop quickly as well. Also the Icahbbie scenes early in the episode were refreshing and made me wish for a second that there was no more threat of the apocalypse so we could see them interact under normal circumstances. I think this episode has set up the chance for the show to get back on track, but I am not sure if the writers will follow through with it and makes changes or just eventually revert back to the same patterns that have hurt Season 2 so far.

[slayer2]

Why does Katrina have to whisper everything? Was the episode sponsored by Fisherman's Friend? Speak up Struggle witch! Or is talking a struggle too?

Egg of Haggis ha! FTW!

Aww, poor bartender Mike.

Edited January 7, 2015 by slayer2

[cheyz]

My problem with Katrina's hair and clothing is that when we met her she was a Quaker woman, all about simplicity, and now she's all hair dye and attention grabbing clothes. If the writers had made her shedding her Quaker simplicity as her witch powers grew, that would have been fine. But they clearly just ditched it, which is lazy.

 

But was she really a Quaker, or was she just disguised on a mission? She was dressed differently at Brom's party and when they showed her after she and Ichabod were married.

[DeLurker]

She was a Quaker, but they put that on the back burner so they could play dress up with their Katrina Doll.

[Yolapukka]

 

when we met her she was a Quaker woman, all about simplicity, and now she's all hair dye and attention grabbing clothes. If the writers had made her shedding her Quaker simplicity as her witch powers grew, that would have been fine. But they clearly just ditched it, which is lazy.

 

But was she really a Quaker, or was she just disguised on a mission? She was dressed differently at Brom's party and when they showed her after she and Ichabod were married.

 

She was a Quaker, but they put that on the back burner so they could play dress up with their Katrina Doll.

 

As I recall she was supposed to be a Quaker and even if that was not true, it was certainly the case that she had a preference for simplicity which was a significant issue in her fractured relationship with Abraham and attraction to Ichabod. Her clothes are mix of anachronisms from a mix of times and always have been. I didn't have much objection to that or her pageant hair when she was in purgatory because she was not of this world and that (lovely) dress we first saw her in was not ridiculous,  unlike what they've put her in for present day appearances.  Even the corset + jeans combination was kind of funny the first time she wore it, but it quickly started to be demeaning when it turned into her signature look. They stuck her in a combination of constricting clothing from now and then, consisting of choices that a woman of her supposed background would likely find unseemly; skin-tight pants and underwear worn on the outside. God forbid they put her in a long-ish skirt or anything simple. 

[TV Juriste]

Did they show Irving shoplifing a burrito? after chugging milk looking like some random homeless dude? 

 

That ain't right.

 

Yay! Irving is back! 

 

How?

Seems like he escaped purgatory along with Orion and the rest of the purgatory refugees. 

[TV Juriste]

I actually enjoyed this episode. I was entertained.

The action was really good and I think the pacing was much better.

I don't quite understand how Hawley and Jenny fit into the episode though - at first they seemed connected but they were left off the end of the episode so I found myself not really understanding that part very well.

I liked that the show focused on Ichabbie in the beginning, even if the conversation did turn to CFD... I hope that gets fully resolved soon - it still drags the show.

I really liked Orion - but I had expected him to be around longer and for the show to get to his true goals much later - I was disappointed at how they handled that so quickly. I was also a bit uncomfortable with the way Orion was willing to sacrifice the good along with the bad - well, I'll be uncomfortable if we never see another angelic host... if that's all the representation angels get... bummer.

Also - one thing I noticed in this episode was the writing was much improved. There was a lot less propping up of Katrina in the way they'd done earlier this season - meaning, characters weren't running around extolling Katrina's virtues at every turn like in previous episodes where Ichabod and other characters did (making themselves look foolish).

Dare I say the writing felt a bit more balanced on that front... I really liked Abbie asserting that Death (Abraham) killed Corbin. She also voiced fan comments that if Katrina's stalling while she worked on a way to free Abraham resulted in loss of life, that was a non-starter. It was nice to see the writing not propping Katrina and allowing the character to be held responsible for her actions by the other characters rather than excused or venerated.

I also think that Goffman may have tweaked and reshot portions of this episode - Abbie's hair is a giveaway on that front... Plus, he may have learned that one way to improve Katrina's standing with fans is to voice some of the things we've been saying - her dialogue about how she and Ichabod's love was responsible for leading Abraham to being Death sounded like it was lifted directly from the boards/social media.

Katrina's wig is MUCH improved.

Also, it was gratifying to see that many of us were right in our theories that horsemen could be separated from their human hosts... I had been speculating and wishing that they could separate Henry from War so we could finally end the CFD (and get our bad guys back) ... looks like it's possible, though I'm not interested if it just prolongs CFD.

I feel kinda shiftless after the episode though - without the Apocalypse, the show feels a little like it has no real direction. Plus I'm disappointed that the whole Revelations angle has been dropped when they barely did anything with it. I mean, we're at episode 25 now - that's barely one full season.

Yes, I agree without Moloch/Apocalypse it all feels a little aimless. We're just two people roaming around looking for monsters and stuff. 

 

Also, I am not a fan of this idea of turning Abraham into a human. That's lame. If Katrina is going to use a special spell to resurrect him (he said he would only go along with the deal to stop killing if she made him human), why couldn't she use that spell on someone a little more worthy? Frank, Corbin, Ghandi, MLK? 

 

I think the Jenny-Hawley and Frank scenes both were added in response to fan/critics complaints. (I think Frank was coming back, but not this soon). Those scenes just felt very choppy.

 

I like the Orion character. I hope we see him again. Overall, I was a little board. But, I plan to be patient with it if it seems they are re-building/moving in the right direction.

 

When Ichabod spoke Katrina in the beginning, he said "It's good to see you again."  Has he not been living in the cabin?

 

Also, how could Ichabod and Abbie understand Abraham in the end when he was yelling?  Shouldn't they have just seen him as Headless?  Or did Katrina use a spell?

I think Crane is staying in the archives.

 

I thought about that, too. The whole headless/not headless thing has gotten confusing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Abbie was insulted when Crane said she should get married. Abbie's not the type to need the affirmation of a man to be a complete person, which is one reason I love the character. She's a bad ass PERSON. Not every woman needs a man to make her life fulfilled.

Here, here! 18th century man, meet 21st century woman. Marriage isn't the be all, end all goal of any woman's life. I just loved her response.

I also loved that as soon as she started telling Crane as much, he immediately realized his mistake and started backpedaling. I thought that was a nice way to show how he sometimes forgets how much he has learned in the 21st century and lets his old principles start talking. As soon as Abbie started talking, he realized that what he said was from his old life and doesn't apply to people now. It's easy to forget how much he has had to adjust to the changes between then and now because he has adapted pretty well, but I think that was his old self doing the talking without his current day self doing the thinking.

Edited January 7, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[phoenics]

Also, I am not a fan of this idea of turning Abraham into a human.

I too am not a fan.

I think it was gratifying to see that it could be done - but I only wanted that for Henry so we could get a BAMF War out of it, kill Jeremy and end the CFD once and for all and move on.

My fear about an Abraham redemption is that it would ONLY be used to give Katrina a story and to prolong the CFD. It would become a full blown soap opera by then with a triangle with Abrahomie/Katrina/Ichabod and I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not here for that.

[Enero]

I too am not a fan.

I think it was gratifying to see that it could be done - but I only wanted that for Henry so we could get a BAMF War out of it, kill Jeremy and end the CFD once and for all and move on.

My fear about an Abraham redemption is that it would ONLY be used to give Katrina a story and to prolong the CFD. It would become a full blown soap opera by then with a triangle with Abrahomie/Katrina/Ichabod and I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not here for that.

Agreed. What makes the Horseman fun and interesting is that he is...the Horseman. I have no interest in his human side or him being transformed back to human. Also you just know that if he becomes human again that will be it for Abbie. We think she's getting the shaft now? There will be no room for her story (at least what little we're getting) with the triangle from hell and the Crane's evil son. Edited January 7, 2015 by Enero

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I've given up trying to interpret the wig-stand's facial expressions. She's such a blank, reactive character that I feel like the position of the camera and editing choices are more significant than whether Katia Winter's nose twitches or if she furrows her brow.

Did you just call Katrina a.....

:DEAD:

[marceline]

Abbie was insulted when Crane said she should get married. Abbie's not the type to need the affirmation of a man to be a complete person, which is one reason I love the character. She's a bad ass PERSON. Not every woman needs a man to make her life fulfilled.

 

Agreed but I actually thought that was sweet. Crane is from a time when the best thing you could wish for a woman would be to find a good husband. I took that as his way of saying that he wants her to be happy. He's still trying to get used to our concept of womanhood where a man isn't necessary for that.

 

I actually like those more subtle moments of showing us how Crane struggles to adjust instead of the broader stuff like his behavior at the farmers market. Crane is like someone in a foreign country for the first time. He knows the language but he still needs to consciously translate it in his head before he understands what is being said. Yet we see that he has made the adjustment in other ways. See how easily he's adapted to having a smartphone.

[HalcyonDays]

Agreed but I actually thought that was sweet. Crane is from a time when the best thing you could wish for a woman would be to find a good husband. I took that as his way of saying that he wants her to be happy. He's still trying to get used to our concept of womanhood where a man isn't necessary for that.

 

I actually like those more subtle moments of showing us how Crane struggles to adjust instead of the broader stuff like his behavior at the farmers market. Crane is like someone in a foreign country for the first time. He knows the language but he still needs to consciously translate it in his head before he understands what is being said. Yet we see that he has made the adjustment in other ways. See how easily he's adapted to having a smartphone.

 

I made a comment earlier that Crane's being all 18th century thinking, but he's really not that far off from relateively recent modern day thinking. Wasn't it in the 40s and 50s and even 60s, where woman were encouraged to go to University, to earn their MRS.

 

And even now, god forbid a woman have a kid and the father becomes the stay-at-home daddy, while the wife goes back to work. Some men today have major issues with it, since they should be the breadwinners. It's where the paygaps originated from. A man has to provide for his family (wife, kids) therefore needs more pay. A woman has a husband to suppliment, so doesn't deserve more pay. Hell, just look at the political drama in the US - we are still not so far removed from Crane's way of thinking. The only difference is that there is a choice. Some woman choose that life, other woman today respond like Abbie would, because they want to pursue other opportunities and have the option to do so. However, shows like the Real HouseWives series and those Duggar's speak otherwise. Sadly, I have to use the words SOME woman, because many still feel that marriage and snagging a man should be the first and foremost goal in a woman's life, and anything else is a waste of time (hello mom).

 

As for Abraham, it's funny how sometimes one has a thought in their mind of how they see things going, but forgets to articulate it. For Abraham, I guess I see it as he doesn't return to being a full human. His soul, his essense is separated from the Horseman's physical shell, his soul them moves on, and another soul occupies the body shell, headless and all. That's for some reason how I see it, so by redeeming Abraham, you are releasing his soul from the body itself.

 

Of course we saw that they physically transformed Abraham's body into Headless (though Abraham is smaller than Headless) so maybe it's pulling the spirit or soul of Death/Evil from the body. However, now I have to go to the Spoilers thread, because of the term they keep using - Avatar of Death.

[DeLurker]

 

Wasn't it in the 40s and 50s and even 60s, where woman were encouraged to go to University, to earn their MRS.

 

And even now, god forbid a woman have a kid and the father becomes the stay-at-home daddy, while the wife goes back to work. Some men today have major issues with it

They just touched on that in the pilot ep of Agent Carter (set in the 40s I believe).  She was being interviewed as a tenant in a women only residence and the correct response to how long did she plan on staying at her current job was until she got found herself someone to marry.  I was the one who worked in my familly and my husband the stay-at-home parent.  It raised a LOT of eyebrows even in a very liberal So Cal town.  Interestingly, the men I worked with were more accepting and supporting of the concept than the women I knew (in and out of work).

 

But I did appreciate how he updated his opinion.

 

 

If Katrina is going to use a special spell to resurrect him (he said he would only go along with the deal to stop killing if she made him human), why couldn't she use that spell on someone a little more worthy? Frank, Corbin, Ghandi, MLK?

 

I think the Jenny-Hawley and Frank scenes both were added in response to fan/critics complaints. (I think Frank was coming back, but not this soon). Those scenes just felt very choppy.

I'm guessing Corbin, Ghandi and MLK don't need to be separated from an avatar of death or some other malice.  Frank?  He might need it, but Katrina who was a field nurse and a witch couldn't stop his bleeding, is not the right choice.

 

And the Jenny/Hawley/Frank scenes did seem to be an after thought to me too.

[Notwisconsin]

Okay, the Apocalypse is SUPPOSED to happen in a certain way. it's supposed to start with the rapture (see the Leftovers, etc.) and end up with a violent end of the world. So, if it's God's plan to have the four horsemen and all that blood and carnage, then it was not Moloch who was the official bad guy, he was just doing his job (he was running PURGATORY, not HELL), bringing sinful souls to be purified enough to go to heaven. Orion figured that since the whole enternal plan was ruined, he had to do the cleansing of the world preceding the second coming himself. Which means he's NOT the bad guy, the witnesses are for mucking up the universe.

[sinkwriter]

Or - if you want to go with a really controversial approach - God's the bad guy. If it's "God's plan to have the four horsemen and all that blood and carnage"... wow. That's not necessarily a dude I want to work for.

[saber5055]

Yeah, I'm confused that the Apocalypse is over just because Moloch is gone. And Abraham is nothing but another petulant whiner, like Henry. Give me old Headless, he of the stomping boots, swinging axe and shotgun backpack. Now THERE'S a bad ass!

[Rhetorica]

I thought everyone knew, you don't trust angels with black wings!

[savinggrace]

I confess to reviewing the Abbie/Orion scenes several times already. After so many episodes of Abbie having to deal with CFD and Ichabod throwing her under the bus right after giving empty monologues about "trust" and "bonds", I enjoyed seeing someone praise her for her efforts and tell her how amazing she is. Abbie seemed so appreciative and inspired.

 

I hate that Orion's hand was played so quickly. An opportunity for development was definitely missed. No fanatic is going to reveal his crazy-assed plans for world destruction right off the bat. They lure their followers with praise and promises of glory and make them feel special. Only when they have their cult followers locked in and co-dependent do  they unleash the cray cray and end up with willing supporters to aid their quest. Orion's arc should have comprised the entire second half. He could have fought along side the Witnesses and worked his charms on a clearly receptive Abbie. At season's end when his plans are revealed we could then see Abbie face a dilemna about whether to kill the inspiring leader.

[phoenics]

I confess to reviewing the Abbie/Orion scenes several times already. After so many episodes of Abbie having to deal with CFD and Ichabod throwing her under the bus right after giving empty monologues about "trust" and "bonds", I enjoyed seeing someone praise her for her efforts and tell her how amazing she is. Abbie seemed so appreciative and inspired.

 

I hate that Orion's hand was played so quickly. An opportunity for development was definitely missed. No fanatic is going to reveal his crazy-assed plans for world destruction right off the bat. They lure their followers with praise and promises of glory and make them feel special. Only when they have their cult followers locked in and co-dependent do  they unleash the cray cray and end up with willing supporters to aid their quest. Orion's arc should have comprised the entire second half. He could have fought along side the Witnesses and worked his charms on a clearly receptive Abbie. At season's end when his plans are revealed we could then see Abbie face a dilemna about whether to kill the inspiring leader.

EXACTLY! This is what I thought would actually happen... it just feels like a horrible waste!

It's hard to feel like this show is going to turn itself around when the show runner keeps on passing up amazing story arcs in favor of more CFD.

Remember in S1 when we wouldn't question the writers? I miss that feeling - it was like having dinner at your mom's house - who put her foot off in the food - and you were so stuffed and fat and happy - you had nothing to complain about except that you couldn't eat MORE.

[saber5055]

 

I thought everyone knew, you don't trust angels with black wings!

I thought of this, since Castiel has white wings. Is Orion so obviously bad because he is *cough* black-winged?

 

About Orion revealing his hand so early, I defer to the authority on angel behavior, Supernatural. Angels don't possess the human trait of sarcasm, cheating or telling an untruth. They are pretty straightforward and even miss obvious jokes.

 

I do think an Orion/Abbie hookup could be interesting though. And he did give her his "ring."

Edited January 8, 2015 by saber5055

[sinkwriter]

 

Is Orion so obviously bad because he is *cough* black-winged?

 

It would be nice if at least one show out there in the universe strayed from convention and stereotype (and potentially racist presentation) and allowed for the good guy to be wearing the black wings. Let's try to step outside the box a little, showrunners!

Edited January 8, 2015 by sinkwriter

[DeLurker]

But the black wings went with his spiffy black duds and complimented his coloring so much more than white would and watching from the shallow end, isn't that what matters?

[cynic]

I thought of this, since Castiel has white wings. Is Orion so obviously bad because he is *cough* black-winged?

About Orion revealing his hand so early, I defer to the authority on angel behavior, Supernatural. Angels don't possess the human trait of sarcasm, cheating or telling an untruth. They are pretty straightforward and even miss obvious jokes.

I do think an Orion/Abbie hookup could be interesting though. And he did give her his "ring."

The color of Orion's wings didn't bother me. I just didn't like the special effects of the wings and the flying. Seeing it made me appreciate how Supernatural handled Castiel and the other angels. They worked within tv budget constraints by using the suggestion of wings in shadows and ashes and it looked a lot better and was more interesting than what we got here.

It's been a long time since I've watched Supernatural, but I seem to remember some of the angels tricking or otherwise misleading the Winchesters. Orion didn't need to lie for the show to delay the reveal though. I think it totally would have made sense for him to just not feel the need to be particularly forthcoming with lesser beings and his actions could have just been ambiguous.

I can't imagine an angel hooking up, but Orion was hot in his weirdly intense way. I wouldn't be against it.

[savinggrace]

Orion didn't need to lie for the show to delay the reveal though. I think it totally would have made sense for him to just not feel the need to be particularly forthcoming with lesser beings and his actions could have just been ambiguous.

 

I agree. I don't know much about Angel Code of Ethics but they could have at least made Orion somewhat clever about executing his plans. He could see that Abbie was receptive to his message so why not string her along and continue to make her feel like a valued soldier in his army.

 

The writers missed another opportunity with the reveal that Orion was in purgatory during the same time as Katrina. When he mentioned the shared purgatory time, I was expecting him to recall some incriminating detail about her. Alas his reveal was only to connect him to Headless and therefore make his appearance more about Katrina's story than Abbie's.

[phoenics]

So that scene where Katrina was shady-side-eye-watching Abbie and Crane discuss Orion was ONLY about her telegraphing that Orion might be bad?

Her expression just looked so much more shady... because didn't that happen AFTER she'd already let the Horseman go? Abbie and Ichabod were discussing how to find Headless and making a plan to find him...

And Katrina looked just like she looks in the opening credits. Like SHE was hiding something. Or maybe she was just upset that they might find Headless?

And I have to agree with a previous poster. She really only has one expression - but now I have to add this one too (the "shady" look). Does she only have those 2 expressions?

I can't even speculate that something else is going on - because with KW and these writers, it could just be that that was Katrina's "Oh my, I think I have gas" face.

[Rhetorica]

I watched the episode but had to come here to remember what I saw.