S05.E01: Episode One

[ShadowFacts]

Is Downton written by only Julian Fellowes?  If so, and even though he is an award-winning screenwriter, he is an older male.  That doesn't mean it's impossible for him to write from a female viewpoint, but it may be a part of the problems we have identified with Anna and Edith.  He is pretty well able to write snarky one-liners for Violet and Isobel, and make Mrs. Patmore tough yet sweet and funny and Mrs. Hughes smart and fiercely maternal.  But when it comes to meaty traumatic stuff women face, he's a little lacking.  I do remember Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare; she actually did talk about it and receive support.  The way the rape has played out as being all about Bates is a writing failure in my eyes, as has been so well articulated by others.

[helenamonster]

Yes, Julian Fellowes is the show's only writer. I think the producers might have to approve the scripts and I guess he has some historical people for accuracy checks and whatnot, but all the credit, for better or worse, falls on his shoulders.

[taanja]

Madame magpie. Bravo! I agree with everything you wrote.

[Avaleigh]

Is Downton written by only Julian Fellowes? If so, and even though he is an award-winning screenwriter, he is an older male. That doesn't mean it's impossible for him to write from a female viewpoint, but it may be a part of the problems we have identified with Anna and Edith. He is pretty well able to write snarky one-liners for Violet and Isobel, and make Mrs. Patmore tough yet sweet and funny and Mrs. Hughes smart and fiercely maternal. But when it comes to meaty traumatic stuff women face, he's a little lacking. I do remember Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare; she actually did talk about it and receive support. The way the rape has played out as being all about Bates is a writing failure in my eyes, as has been so well articulated by others.

While I agree with this on some level, I don't ultimately think this is a gender thing for Fellowes so much as an emotional thing. I wonder for example if the writing would have had similar flaws if a male character had been a victim of rape.

It's not the same thing but it reminds me of other choices that he's made like refraining from showing any reactions to Matthew's death or commenting that we won't ever see the death of his favorite character Violet and that if Maggie Smith had to leave the role for some reason that the character would be written off as vacationing or going by the seaside. Something like that. I feel like there's a part of him that shies away from emotion on some level. Just an impression I've gotten over the years.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[bannana]

How in God's name did Edith not happen to notice that the book she just threw in the fire tried to save itself and was burning on the hearth rug? And why was it necessary for the fire brigade to spend time getting all gussied up in their uniforms and shiny helmets instead of hustling up to the house that was on fire?

And considering there are no cell phones(!) they managed to call the fire brigade and get them there in time to contain the fire in Edith's room.  In their fancy uniforms.  I feel like that would have taken at least 20 to 30 minutes, by which time the fire would have spread.

 

I think they are implying that Daisy is dyslexic.  If the teacher tries to tutor her, she may identify it.

[ShadowFacts]

 

While I agree with this on some level, I don't ultimately think this is a gender thing for Fellowes so much as an emotional thing. I wonder for example if the writing would have had similar flaws if a male character had been a victim of rape.

 

Leaving aside that male rape is like a third rail that no one portrays, I do think it is gender-related inasmuch as if a male character had been assaulted that way, the story probably would not revolve around their wife or girlfriend's reactions.  That's just a guess on my part, though.  As far as emotion being hard for Fellowes to write, I agree that he does an uneven job with it.  Some comes off well, such as Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare and Daisy marrying that young dying footman/soldier.  But as you say, not much overt grieving for Matthew nor even Sybil for that matter. 

[PRgal]

While I agree with this on some level, I don't ultimately think this is a gender thing for Fellowes so much as an emotional thing. I wonder for example if the writing would have had similar flaws if a male character had been a victim of rape.

 

DIdn't they kind of address it last season when Tom's drink was spiked by a someone on staff and she sneaked into his room?  I believe it was Mrs. Hughes who found a book she had about how NOT to get pregnant or something like that?

[ShadowFacts]

DIdn't they kind of address it last season when Tom's drink was spiked by a someone on staff and she sneaked into his room?  I believe it was Mrs. Hughes who found a book she had about how NOT to get pregnant or something like that?

 

They had that scenario and the one where Thomas made a sexual move on a sleeping Jimmy I think it was?  Not to diminish those, but I am talking about the sort of violent assault that Anna suffered, and the major fallout that we see is her fears regarding Bates' reaction.

[Avaleigh]

Leaving aside that male rape is like a third rail that no one portrays, I do think it is gender-related inasmuch as if a male character had been assaulted that way, the story probably would not revolve around their wife or girlfriend's reactions.  That's just a guess on my part, though.  As far as emotion being hard for Fellowes to write, I agree that he does an uneven job with it.  Some comes off well, such as Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare and Daisy marrying that young dying footman/soldier.  But as you say, not much overt grieving for Matthew nor even Sybil for that matter.

I think I was specifically thinking about how the story of Thomas coming into Jimmy's room and kissing him played out. Jimmy was the victim in this situation but it was basically a story that was mainly about the hurt feelings of Thomas and the process of getting characters like Carson, Alfred, and Jimmy to find tolerance. There wasn't really much discussion of Jimmy's privacy being violated or the fact that he was sexually harrassed.

Just to be clear I wouldn't expect for Jimmy to be of the view that he was sexually harrassed. I doubt even that Tom thinks he was a victim of rape.

[ZoloftBlob]

Just to be clear I wouldn't expect for Jimmy to be of the view that he was sexually harrassed. I doubt even that Tom thinks he was a victim of rape.

 

Which is actually an example of a really horrible double standard. If Thomas had hopped into Daisy's bed unasked and fondled her, he'd be called a rapist according to our current standards, even if Daisy flirted with him prior. Even in 1922, while Daisy would have also been deemed a slut, he'd still be considered to have committed sexual assault. But when its Thomas making sexual advances on an unwilling man - and this would be the second time we know of, because he did something similar and unwanted to Pamuk, Jimmy protesting is Jimmy "being a girl's blouse" over it. Yes, Thomas *almost* lost his job over it but in the end he didn't.

[Andorra]

Actually MyAnna Buring (who played Edna) said in an interview that in that particular episode were "two sexuals assaults" happening in the same nigtht. The violent rape of Anna and Edna forcing herself on Tom. She made him drunk and then went into his bed uninvited. In modern standards it would be viewed as rape, too.

 

It was typical for the time though that Tom blamed mainly himself even though he didn't give her any more encouragement than just talking to her. And of course didn't see himself as a victim of sexual abuse, because I don't think men even thought in those terms.

[photo fox]

Okay, guys, time for a friendly reminder about the episode topics.  Please make sure you are discussing ONLY this episode.  If you want to discuss things from previous years, that belongs in the character topics or the past season topics.

 

Also, if you've already seen the future episodes, don't mention them in this topic (or spoiler tag it.)

 

There's a lot of great discussion happening, so I don't want to censor it, but we do need to be mindful of putting things in their proper place.  Cheers!

[Avaleigh]

Which is actually an example of a really horrible double standard. If Thomas had hopped into Daisy's bed unasked and fondled her, he'd be called a rapist according to our current standards, even if Daisy flirted with him prior. Even in 1922, while Daisy would have also been deemed a slut, he'd still be considered to have committed sexual assault. But when its Thomas making sexual advances on an unwilling man - and this would be the second time we know of, because he did something similar and unwanted to Pamuk, Jimmy protesting is Jimmy "being a girl's blouse" over it. Yes, Thomas *almost* lost his job over it but in the end he didn't.

 

 

ITA. Replying further in the all episodes thread.

[millennium]

They have the worst chemistry I've ever seen on my television. Did he run over her puppy ... every time they have a scene together? It's the weirdest thing to watch, especially after three seasons of Mary and Matthew's radiance.

 

 

I don't like Tony Gillingham.   I don't like it when the characters say "Tony Gillingham" -- and they say it a lot. 

 

I'm afraid Mary is forever ruined for me, despite her killer wardrobe.   I am still angry about Matthew's hastily contrived death.   He humanized the lot of them and even made me feel welcome as a viewer (yeah, I know it's weird)   More than a season later, no one has filled that role.   I don't think anyone can.   I do believe the series died with Matthew and the other characters simply don't know.

 

Best line of the episode (besides "Donk," that is): "I must go upstairs to take off my hat."   Do you think Mary has a special room set aside to slip in and out of her hats?

 

I wouldn't mind if Daisy died.   Maybe she could fall into a pudding or something.

[HoodlumSheep]

Favorite line of the episode goes to Robert, with his "save the dog!" Never change! Still don't like the teacher lady. Did she dye her hair? It looked much more red than I remember it being. It's fine if she has different opinions, but she just comes off rude 100% of the time. It doesn't seem like Tom is too fond of her either. I was cracking up at some of the faces he was making when she showed up.

This whole Edith-Marigold thing is going to blow up in her face at some point.

Wish Thomas had a better storyline than just menacing Baxter. Is it me or is his whole relationship with Cora defined by her telling him off, then he somehow saves the day, then she's all okay with him again??

I do not like Gillingham at all. Send him away, Mary! I've never taken a liking to him at all. He's too pushy. This episode he's all like, "you're in love with me!" And it's pretty clear that Mary has a different opinion. I'm wondering when Blake will show up again. I don't really like him too much either, but I'll take him over Gilly if I have to.

There are times when I miss Evelyn Napier. :( I'm pretty sure I'm one of the very, very few who do, and I totally understand that Mary doesn't really seem into him, but he was so nice and adorkable, even if he's a little bland.

Liked this premiere better than last years. Our local station accidentally cut off the last 10 minutes, so we had to wait a few days before we had time to watch Edith almost burn the house down.

[Avaleigh]

There are times when I miss Evelyn Napier. :( I'm pretty sure I'm one of the very, very few who do, and I totally understand that Mary doesn't really seem into him, but he was so nice and adorkable, even if he's a little bland.

 

 

You aren't alone here. I liked him too. He just needs to stop introducing all of his good looking friends to Mary. ;-)

 

It doesn't seem like Tom is too fond of her either.

 

 

Honestly, how many hints does Miss Bunting need that Tom is just not that in to her? When a guy asks you what you're doing at a party he's attending and then asks another member of the party in front of you if you have permission to be there, I'd say it's probably time to move on.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Avaleigh

[helenamonster]

I forgot to mention, I thought Raquel Cassidy was really good in the scene where Baxter tells Cora about the theft. You couldn't see her shaking, but the clothes she had in her hands were. The subtlety was really effective, imo.

[becauseIsaidso]

Now that I've finally managed to NOT sleep through the first episode, I found it to be rather boring. So many disappointments. And since I don't recall getting any definitive information that Gregson is dead, so (until I hear to the contrary about his demise), I am convinced that Fellowes has copped yet another storyline from U/D - this time the Redux, where the protagonist's sister (Lady Persephone, I believe) turns out to be a Nazi sympathizer, etc, etc, etc) and will have (shock and awe) Gregson eventually make his miraculous return as a very thinly disguised Nazi sympathizer (early days, true, but the seeds have certainly been sown) who will be finally exposed  - by either Edith (taking the part of the U/D protagonist) or, perhaps, Branson - who, rebel though he may be, is not of the Nazi mentality....Anyhow, the handwriting seems to be on the wall - but I forget, we have yet to experience the impact of the great stock market crash, though last season gave us hints of the ever stupid Robert buying into Ponzi schemes in his quest for instant, work-free riches - and there is, of course, Mary's tepid-tea-passion for Gillingham....I will admit I still secretly hold out hope for the return of Richard Carlisle - those two are a match made in mercenary heaven! AND could be such a hoot as a passionate, calculating, materialistically sexy couple such as the world of TV has never been treated to in a happily functioning duo with both feet firmly planted in their financial statements.

 

Good riddance to James - he was a waste of space...and speaking of wastes - Barrow! Barrow! Barrow! The character started off with SUCH promise! - Bad boy, good boy, bad-coward-boy, good boy with flaws, but now, nothing but a sniveling, sneaky, slimey, rat-bastard of a coward...what a shame!

 

I think it also quite the shame that I have been reduced to looking forward to my weekly dose of the Mosely brand of comic relief - how sad. Not even the wit-filled delivery of Violet's lines by the wonderful Maggie Smith can resurrect this pitiful shadow of a show.

[Llywela]

Best line of the episode (besides "Donk," that is): "I must go upstairs to take off my hat."   Do you think Mary has a special room set aside to slip in and out of her hats?

Yes, her bedroom, where it would probably take a good 15 minutes, with the assistance of her maid, to remove the many, many pins securing the hat to her head and then re-do the hair. It's a good example of the cultural difference between then and now - today we'd just whip the hat off and that would be that. Not an option for Mary. Announcing it in that way tells everyone she's going to be in her room and occupied for a good 15-20 minutes.

[millennium]

Yes, her bedroom, where it would probably take a good 15 minutes, with the assistance of her maid, to remove the many, many pins securing the hat to her head and then re-do the hair. It's a good example of the cultural difference between then and now - today we'd just whip the hat off and that would be that. Not an option for Mary. Announcing it in that way tells everyone she's going to be in her room and occupied for a good 15-20 minutes.

 

Thank you for that -- the line makes more sense to me now.   Alas, it seems not as humorous as before. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I watched this episode and read the posts here discussing Violet's behavior and manipulation.  Is it agreed that she was trying to intervene and prevent Isobel Crawley from becoming romantically involved? 

[Pallas]

I watched this episode and read the posts here discussing Violet's behavior and manipulation.  Is it agreed that she was trying to intervene and prevent Isobel Crawley from becoming romantically involved?

 

I think we're meant to think so, and the next question might be how Fellowes will choose to play it:

 

1. Violet the peeress simply cannot tolerate anothe woman -- a redoubtably bourgeois woman; a redoubtably bourgeois woman connected to Violet's own family, no less -- assuming social ascendancy over her;  
2. Violet the peerless believes that Isobel is genuinely ill-matched with the lord and far better matched with the Doctor;  
3. Violet the player is angling Isobel into a match with one man or the other -- no real stake in which -- believing that Isobel is perversely resistant to the idea of the remarriage, but might be roused to do what's best for herself, if only to spite Violet.

[ShadowFacts]

To me it comes off more as Violet is teasing.  Maybe she has mixed motives, but I didn't interpret what she said or did as preventing any romance.  Of course it could have gone right over my head.  I don't want to think Violet would do intentionally mean things to Isobel after she devotedly nursed her back to health.  Am I naive?  I don't think Isobel is highly interested in marriage anyway.

[Hanahope]

I think that's the point of Violet's actions, to get Isobel married.  I had at first thought Violet was resistant to Isobel being with Lord Merton and wanted her to be with someone more of 'her class', i.e. Dr. Clarkson.  But given that sometimes Violet seems supportive of the relationship with Merton and other times not, I'm thinking that Violet just wants Isobel to get remarried to someone, either the doctor or Lord Merton because (1) she wants Isobel to happy (and believes most happiness is being married); (2) to give Isobel something to do because Violet isn't going to be around forever; (3) to give Isobel something to do because Violet doesn't want to be Isobel's only friend.  So Violet is deliberately creating these teasing, jealousy, push and pull scenarios to get Isobel around to the idea of getting married, even if it is just to spite Violet (get Violet off her back).

[Crs97]

Evelyn is still my favorite! I still hold out hope that Mary comes to her senses about him!

[SunnyBeBe]

Hanahope

Yest. 3:45 pm

I think that's the point of Violet's actions, to get Isobel married.  I had at first thought Violet was resistant to Isobel being with Lord Merton and wanted her to be with someone more of 'her class', i.e. Dr. Clarkson.  But given that sometimes Violet seems supportive of the relationship with Merton and other times not, I'm thinking that Violet just wants Isobel to get remarried to someone, either the doctor or Lord Merton because (1) she wants Isobel to happy (and believes most happiness is being married); (2) to give Isobel something to do because Violet isn't going to be around forever; (3) to give Isobel something to do because Violet doesn't want to be Isobel's only friend.  So Violet is deliberately creating these teasing, jealousy, push and pull scenarios to get Isobel around to the idea of getting married, even if it is just to spite Violet (get Violet off her back).

 

 

 

This is what I had thought, but everyone else seemed to say the opposite and that Violent was jealous and didn't want Isobel to get ahead of her!  Maybe, I'll have to watch it again.  I'm a little surprised there is no clear consensus on this.  

[ShadowFacts]

Maybe I have missed something.  I don't know why Violet thinks Isobel needs to get married.  And didn't they show Isobel in a previous season more or less turning down the doctor's interest in her?  She would have far more in common with him than with the lord.  If she is lonely, then I wish they would show it.  Maybe she could speak of her only son once in awhile, so we could get a sense of how she deals with the loss.  She seems to have a nice relationship with Tom.  She takes an interest in the family, the village goings-on, politics, etc.  Acquiring a husband just doesn't seem to be on her radar.

[helenamonster]

I don't think Isobel has any interest in marrying again, at least not at this point in time. But I think Violet is still afraid of Isobel becoming her peer and wants to eliminate the possibility as a precaution. The two of them may not be at loggerheads as much as they once were, but I think Violet still likes being superior to Isobel in at least one way (especially in a way that, until recently, she didn't think she'd have to worry about). But now she's seen both Lord Merton and Dr. Clarkson take an interest in Isobel. Whether Isobel wants to get married to either man is besides the point, at least to Violet. She wants to eliminate Lord Merton as a possibility and push Isobel towards Dr. Clarkson, so that if she does get the urge to marry again, it will be to him and she won't be Violet's peer. I could be totally off, but that's how I see the storyline.

[cincivic]

This is my first time posting in this forum. I am not sure if any other poster mentioned this but was anyone else bothered by Tony's lack of worry when "fire" was yelled? I rewound the scene a few times and I giggled each time at his utter lack of emotion. He seemed annoyed. Annoyed I guess because he wasn't going to get any from Lady Mary.

 

Mary's line about going to take off her hat was laughable. I understand that it might take awhile to get the hat off and to get her hair reasonable but the line was still funny.

[JudyObscure]

I am not sure if any other poster mentioned this but was anyone else bothered by Tony's lack of worry when "fire" was yelled? I rewound the scene a few times and I giggled each time at his utter lack of emotion.

I giggled a little, too, but I think this is one thing Fellowes got exactly right. British aristocrats may not know how to undress themselves (according to Anna) but they are rightfully famous for being cool under fire. I was reminded of the 1994 assassination attempt on Prince Charles in Australia. Shots ring out, people scream and run -- the Prince calmly continues adjusting his cuff.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JudyObscure

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think Isobel has any interest in marrying again, at least not at this point in time. But I think Violet is still afraid of Isobel becoming her peer and wants to eliminate the possibility as a precaution. The two of them may not be at loggerheads as much as they once were, but I think Violet still likes being superior to Isobel in at least one way (especially in a way that, until recently, she didn't think she'd have to worry about). But now she's seen both Lord Merton and Dr. Clarkson take an interest in Isobel. Whether Isobel wants to get married to either man is besides the point, at least to Violet. She wants to eliminate Lord Merton as a possibility and push Isobel towards Dr. Clarkson, so that if she does get the urge to marry again, it will be to him and she won't be Violet's peer. I could be totally off, but that's how I see the storyline.

 

That's an insight on Violet that I hadn't thought of, and it makes sense.  I am kind of sad to think of the pettiness of her not wanting Isobel to be her equal, at her age and after Isobel nursed her back from a serious illness, literally around the clock for days, while her daughter-in-law and granddaughters were going on about their business.  I enjoy their friendship and their banter.  If she is as astute as I've always thought, she should know that Isobel would not be interested in Lord Merton, even if she suddenly got the urge to commit marriage again.

[Mrsjumbo]

Evelyn is still my favorite! I still hold out hope that Mary comes to her senses about him!

I mentioned the same thing here before. I thought Evelyn was a much better (& cuter) match for Mary than Gillingham or Blake.

[DHDancer]

Evelyn reminds me of "Bunny" in Upstairs Downstairs.  Wealthy, not bright, and clueless about women.  Bunny if you remember couldn't see that James (Bellamy) was in love with Diana (Bunny's wife)

Edited January 22, 2015 by DHDancer

[helenamonster]

I wouldn't say Evelyn is clueless. He actually seems extraordinarily self-aware. He told Cora in Season One that he knows he's not an interesting person, but he'd like his future wife to think he was. I don't think he's had any delusions about ending up with Mary since the whole Pamuk incident. At this point, they're just old friends, and he was just a glorified vehicle for Blake.

[Avaleigh]

I'm not sure if clueless is necessarily the right word but I do see the Bunny similarities with Evelyn. I think it's something about both characters seeming naturally content, not being particularly ambitious, wanting a particular woman but not really being willing or even necessarily knowing how to make that extra effort to make it happen. 

 

I agree that Evelyn seems more self aware than Bunny though. Evelyn would, I think, at least pause if Mary were to accept a proposal from him with an "Oh, all right." whereas I feel like Tony Gillingham would be perfectly fine with that response from Mary as Bunny was with Diana. 

[helenamonster]

Oh, okay. I've never seen Upstairs, Downstairs so I couldn't speak to the nature of that character, just Evelyn.