S04.E12: Heroes And Villains

[Shanna Marie]

I've seen theories that the Dalmatian puppy in this episode was a shapeshifting Cruella, but I've wondered if that was Pongo as a puppy, and somehow his cursed identity is as Archie's dog, or else he escaped Cruella somewhere along the way.

 

This whole Operation Mongoose plan makes absolutely no sense because no one stops to realize that the good guys have pretty shitty lives too. Belle arguably had a way worse day than Regina in the finale, yet we're supposed to feel more sympathy for Regina because Emma goes to offer her shots and encourages her to find the author.

Yeah, Belle is the one needing and deserving to do shots and have the whole town rallying around her to comfort her. I don't know that learning that your married lover would have chosen you, if only he didn't have to stay with his wife and son in order to help them survive in a strange new world, really compares to learning that your husband was lying to you and using you as an alibi for his evil schemes and never loved you as much as he loves power, then barely stopping him from killing someone to get ultimate power, and then kicking him out of town where (supposedly) you'll never see him again.

 

I'd have been a lot more okay with Emma skipping out on Hook to check on Belle than to enable Regina. Maybe while Emma and Regina were doing shots, Hook was off offering his flask to Belle and listening sympathetically while she vented about what a jerk Rumple was.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'd have been a lot more okay with Emma skipping out on Hook to check on Belle than to enable Regina. Maybe while Emma and Regina were doing shots, Hook was off offering his flask to Belle and listening sympathetically while she vented about what a jerk Rumple was.

Oh my gosh! Hook and Belle would have been such a parallel to Dr. Whale and Mary Margaret in 1x06!

 

Dr. Whale: Rough day?

Mary Margaret: Don’t feel like talking.

Dr. Whale: Come on. Sometimes, it’s easier to talk to someone when you don’t give a crap what they think.

Mary Margaret: You ever walk into a situation, where you know exactly what’s going to happen and then you go into it anyway. And then, when what you’re afraid of happens, you kick yourself. Because you should’ve known better. But that’s just who you are. It’s like you’re punishing yourself.

Dr. Whale: No.

Mary Margaret: How do you do that?

Dr. Whale: By never knowing what’s expected – keeps life interesting. Can I buy you a drink?

Mary Margaret: You can buy me two.

 

I could totally imagine this conversation happening now.

[Curio]

I'd have been a lot more okay with Emma skipping out on Hook to check on Belle than to enable Regina. Maybe while Emma and Regina were doing shots, Hook was off offering his flask to Belle and listening sympathetically while she vented about what a jerk Rumple was.

 

I'd have much rather seen a scene of Hook apologizing to Belle for not warning her about Rumple earlier when he first found out about the fake dagger than the scene of Emma offering Regina shots. That's yet another thing the writers glossed over this episode: Hook could have prevented a lot of what happened if he just told someone what was going on.

 

I could totally imagine this conversation happening now.

 

It'd have to be slightly altered a bit. Belle would probably immediately assume Hook has come to gloat and say "I told you so" about Rumple's dark heart. But Hook could correct her and say he's just there to offer support and thank her for saving his life. And then he'd apologize not only for keeping the secret about the fake dagger from her but also give her a genuine apology for the crap he did to her in the past.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Curio

[ShadowFacts]

 

Is this all going to accumulate into every single person in Storybrooke realizing they don't have their perfect happily ever after either and everyone asking for a better ending? And then the entire town explodes because of the happily ever after overdrive?

 

Yes, and it will be Emma who is in overdrive with working out everyone's happy ending, because that is now what she professes to be there for. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

It'd have to be slightly altered a bit

That's why I said it would be a "parallel".

 

 

That's a pretty hard thing to judge.

Cruella isn't smart or cunning like most of those you mentioned. She doesn't ever strategize or think logically... ever. Literally worshiping fur is much more on the crazy side than just hating a human being over something they did. The Evil Queen wanted to be adored, Maleficent wanted to backstab the fairies that exiled her, and Cinderella's stepsisters were brats who took advantage of an orphan. Those are all closer to real human motivations than stealing over a hundred puppies and killing them just to make a coat. 

 

(Btw, I'm not taking the villains' Once versions into account. If I did that, Regina would win hands down.)

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

She does well with what she gets though. Sure she doesn't have magic, but I'd say she's the most psychotic Disney villain of them all. 

 

That's a pretty hard thing to judge.  

 

Maleficent wants to kill a young girl just because her feelings were hurt (the King and Queen didn't send her an invite to the christening -- boo hoo)!  It was only luck (or PLOT!) that one fairy was left to mitigate her spell.

 

The Evil Queen is ready to kill a young girl just because the girl is prettier.

 

Cinderella's step-mother and step-sisters are mean to her for no particularly good reason.

[YaddaYadda]

Those are all closer to human motivations than stealing over a hundred puppies to kill them just to make a coat.

 

Mr. Burns stole puppies to make coats.

 

Regarding Cruella, we're used to ineffective villains and her delivery is pretty hilarious and sarcastic from what I got to see so far.  Emma could always throw red paint at her and scream "Fur is Murder" while she runs away from the scene.

[Shanna Marie]

I'd have much rather seen a scene of Hook apologizing to Belle for not warning her about Rumple earlier when he first found out about the fake dagger than the scene of Emma offering Regina shots.

That's how the conversation would start. He needs to go to her to thank her for saving his life and to apologize for not telling her about the fake dagger earlier. To which she'd have to reply that she probably wouldn't have believed him at that time, and then she could apologize for what she said much earlier about what happened to Milah and saying how dark his heart is -- which she now knows isn't true because she's seen it. Then he'd tell her she wasn't entirely wrong at the time, and that could lead to a true apology from him about the shooting, with the offer of the flask. Once the drinking begins, she could vent and ask him for the full story of Milah, if he knows what really happened with Rumple and Bae (so she'd know she wasn't alone in being screwed over) and his assessment of just what Rumple's deal really is.

[txhorns79]

Regarding Cruella, we're used to ineffective villains and her delivery is pretty hilarious and sarcastic from what I got to see so far.

 

While part of me kind of loves the idea of Cruella's power being the ability to deliver a withering quip on a moment's notice, I hope they figure out what to do with her.

[HoodlumSheep]

While part of me kind of loves the idea of Cruella's power being the ability to deliver a withering quip on a moment's notice, I hope they figure out what to do with her.

I kinda want her to meet Bo Peep. They'd be awesome together.

Anyways, randomly popping in to say, I'm oddly at peace with this episode. 95% was so-so, but I really didn't mind most of the episode. It was the weird choice of editing at the end that really threw me off. But I'm mostly over it. It is what it is.

Actually looking forward to Cruella, Ursula, and Mal in that exact order.

Still love the Belle vs. Rumple scene and the Hook/diner scene best. The latter scene is probably my new favorite Scene Colin has done.

Secretly hoping that if Mickey ever escapes the hat, he can straighten out Regina with his wisdom.

[ParadoxLost]

Anyways, randomly popping in to say, I'm oddly at peace with this episode. 95% was so-so, but I really didn't mind most of the episode. It was the weird choice of editing at the end that really threw me off. But I'm mostly over it. It is what it is.

 

This continues to bug.  I think they really screwed that up  badly.  I think the order was wrong and the six weeks later was misplaced.  Really, Hooks heart should have been the only thing before 6 weeks later.  How did Frozen instantaneously take back the kingdom?  Six weeks of Regina moping and then Emma drinks with her fixes a lot of the stupid transition from Hook/Emma to the Regina/Emma stuff.

[Mari]

This continues to bug.  I think they really screwed that up  badly.  I think the order was wrong and the six weeks later was misplaced.  Really, Hooks heart should have been the only thing before 6 weeks later.  How did Frozen instantaneously take back the kingdom?  Six weeks of Regina moping and then Emma drinks with her fixes a lot of the stupid transition from Hook/Emma to the Regina/Emma stuff.

That makes a lot of sense--a lot of sense. 

[Rumsy4]

Really, Hooks heart should have been the only thing before 6 weeks later.  How did Frozen instantaneously take back the kingdom?  Six weeks of Regina moping and then Emma drinks with her fixes a lot of the stupid transition from Hook/Emma to the Regina/Emma stuff.

 

This would've been perfect! And immediately transitioned from the scene where Regina and Emma are mocking Rumple, to Rumple's scene in NY with Ursula. Then, they could have ended with Henry showing the blank books library to his moms. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

This would've been perfect! And immediately transitioned from the scene where Regina and Emma are mocking Rumple, to Rumple's scene in NY with Ursula. Then, they could have ended with Henry showing the blank books library to his moms. 

 

That is why I find this episode so irritating.  You can literally reorder what they actually aired and have it make more sense.  Someone isn't doing their job more than usual.

[Camera One]

They want to be able to "check in" with Regina 6 weeks later to see how she is handling her grief over Robin.  They can also show 2 seconds of Emma happy with her parents, and 10 seconds of Emma happy with Hook, and then they can launch right into Evil Forces Threaten Storybrooke.  Again.  Nothing would have progressed at all with finding the Author, and we can get a nice recap from Henry about Operation Mongoose and how everyone is on board.  "We've spent 6 weeks combing this house for clues but nothing!"  

[Shanna Marie]

I still am trying to figure out exactly how they got from Anna's "Oh, I know Rumplestiltskin!" to rushing into the clock tower just in time to see Rumple about to crush Hook's heart.

 

Anna's revelation just proved that Rumple was lying to them about knowing anything about Anna and Elsa, which implies that Belle had a fake dagger, since he used her with the dagger to "prove" he was telling the truth. Anna also knew about the hat and what he wanted it for, but the last time she saw the hat box, Ingrid had it, 30 years ago. If she thought Rumple got the hat 30 years ago, then what's the rush to the clock tower?

 

Possible assumptions they could have made based on what Anna could have known to tell them and what they already knew:

Rumple's plan to help remove Emma's magic was actually the hat, which would have sucked her in instead of just removing her magic, maybe that's why the fairies disappeared from the diner, and maybe he's about to separate himself from the dagger (but they still didn't know when or what it would entail)

OR

Rumple had already separated himself from the dagger but had the fake to hide that fact, and that's how he was able to lie

 

It's a possible assumption that Hook delivering messages for Rumple in spite of them being enemies is connected to Hook acting strange in general, which could indicate that something bad is currently going on, and Emma might have realized that all his goodbyes really had been possible final goodbyes. But even if you add in Henry knowing that Hook came for him, that still doesn't get them to the clock tower.

 

I'm okay with characters getting from point A to an obvious point B offscreen -- if, say, Anna had known more about how the hat worked and had rambled on about how it's nothing to be worried about because doing the spell requires the heart of someone who knew him before he was the Dark One, and that was hundreds of years ago, so it's not like there's anyone still alive, then all I would have needed would be the "oh, crap!" expression on Emma's face to know she'd made the connection, and then we could have seen her rushing in (though I'm still not sure how that gets them to that particular place, other than maybe flashy lights showing from outside). But this was getting from point A to point X offscreen, with no indication of how they made the connection or what information they pulled from -- did Emma check her messages and hear from Hook, did they run into Belle?

 

It was like a bad mystery novel where the author cheats and doesn't share all the evidence and clues with the reader, so at the big moment of resolution the detective solves the case, citing critical information we never got, and there was never a chance of figuring it out for ourselves.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Maybe they just ran into the middle of town and saw the purple cloud and light emitted by the hat in the clock tower?

[HoodlumSheep]

Rumple opened the sun-roof (?) on top of the tower, so it is possible they could have seen light emitting from it, like The Cake is a Pie suggested.

[KingOfHearts]

That whole hat/heart sequence at the tower was side-eye worthy. Maybe I'm seeing things, but didn't Emma shoot a ball of light magic at Rumple before he stunned them? Where did it go? I thought Emma and Snow were kind of dumb for just standing there, listening to Rumple monologue while he was holding Hook's heart. How did Belle get in unseen?

 

 

Rumple opened the sun-roof (?) on top of the tower

Why does a clocktower have a sun roof? So many questions.

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

It was like a bad mystery novel where the author cheats and doesn't share all the evidence and clues with the reader, so at the big moment of resolution the detective solves the case, citing critical information we never got, and there was never a chance of figuring it out for ourselves.

 

This is exactly what happens at the end of every arc on this show. Some random plot point or clue is dropped on the audience at the last second, so the audience can never piece together the mystery throughout the season and figure it out for ourselves. It's sloppy, lazy writing and insulting to the audience. We were introduced to the random failsafe diamond in Season 2 that we had no idea about until the 11th hour. We were introduced to the Black Fairy's Wand at the final moment in "Going Home," which was apparently essential for stopping pan. We are shown this random gauntlet at the last second which helps Belle figure out what's actually going on with Rumple.

 

But why are these things not introduced earlier in the season? Is it because Adam & Eddy are afraid of the audience solving the mystery before the *Surprise! Belle is holding the real dagger!* reveal? Well, newsflash: the audience likes searching for clues and figuring out the mystery. Purposefully leaving the audience in the dark the entire time just makes us cranky. The gauntlet wasn't even needed for Belle to figure out Rumple's deception - that could have been easily replaced with her finding the cell phone in the shop instead. It's like, why even bother trying to predict the ending to the season's mystery because the final clue is usually not even revealed until the finale episode.

 

Having Belle find the cell phone would have been way more emotionally satisfying too because we could have seen her reaction to listening to Killian spill everything about the fake dagger and how Rumple was about to destroy Emma. And there's continuity payoff! Sure, some of the audience might have been able to predict that would happen, but it's also extremely satisfying when a plot piece from the past is given its proper ending. 

 

For example, on Breaking Bad -- (P.S. spoilers for their finale? Even though it aired over a year ago?)

the writers had been dropping hints about Lydia using a specific brand of sugar packets in her tea as an OCD habit, and the majority of the fans online predicted that Walter would use his ricin poison in one of her sugar packages to kill her.

The writers were well aware that smarter members of the audience would figure this out before the episode, but they followed through with doing it anyways because when you drop enough hints about something earlier in the season, you have to pay it off. Compare that style of writing to this show, where hints are dropped everywhere about Emma's fear of Hook dying and Hook being too cocky about being a survivor, but then there's no follow through when his life is on the line. Can we please either get a) new show runners or b) some better writers on the staff?

Edited December 18, 2014 by yeswedo
added spoiler tags

[YaddaYadda]

How did Belle get in unseen?

 

Rumple was just standing there monologuing as you put it so well KingofHearts.  He was so busy patting himself on the back.  Villains are usually like this.  They're all talk and no action.

 

I thought instead of yelling, Emma could have just done something magical.  I'm not even sure he saw Emma and Mary Margaret arriving.  I had very high expectations for Emma's magic this episode.  Womp womp womp!

[The Cake is a Pie]

That whole hat/heart sequence at the tower was side-eye worthy. Maybe I'm seeing things, but didn't Emma shoot a ball of light magic at Rumple before he stunned them? Where did it go? I thought Emma and Snow were kind of dumb for just standing there, listening to Rumple monologue while he was holding Hook's heart. How did Belle get in unseen?

 

She tried, but he froze her before she could. She yelled stop and raised her arm, but then got frozen. I'm still upset that Rumple suddenly has the ability to freeze people in place, when he never previously had that power.

 

 

Why does a clocktower have a sun roof? So many questions.

 

I almost missed the rest of the scene because I too busy yelling WHAT? IN THE ACTUAL F*CK? at that part. I had to go back and rewind to finish watching the rest.

[Dianthus]

Was it Emma who yelled "stop" or was it Belle? I assumed it was Emma, but then Belle says she commanded Rumple not to when he questions why he can't crush Hook's heart. Maybe they yelled it at the same time? Yeah, I'm reaching here.

I watched Lost, but I was there more for the characters rather than trying to figure out what was going on. I'm mostly just along for the ride. Unfortunately, this ride is currently giving me whiplash.

[KingOfHearts]

 

She tried, but he froze her before she could. She yelled stop and raised her arm, but then got frozen. I'm still upset that Rumple suddenly has the ability to freeze people in place, when he never previously had that power.

I thought for sure I saw a ball of light magic fly across the screen a split second after Rumple froze her. Hm, maybe they were going for some sort of effect I didn't catch.

 

 

Was it Emma who yelled "stop" or was it Belle?

It was Emma. She said, "Gold, stop!"

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

How did Belle get in unseen?

 

The deus ex machina aka the Gauntlet poofed her to the real Dagger. 

[jhlipton]

I've tracked the "gin and desperation quote to Carson McCullers:
 

Between books, when she was neither famous nor monied, she claimed she existed almost exclusively on gin, cigarettes, and desperation for weeks at a time.

[Captain I0]

Poor concepting/writing on this one shows. Cruella DeVille makes zero sense in the ancient Enchanted Forest. And if they wanted to use her, there's an obvious route to bringing her in that doesn't involve straining the (extremely loose) continuity of the Enchanted Realm. Hell, they are bringing Rumple to New York to get back together with them anyway. Cruella can just be a Madison Avenue billioniare that they meet there.

 

bugs.

[legaleagle53]

That whole hat/heart sequence at the tower was side-eye worthy. Maybe I'm seeing things, but didn't Emma shoot a ball of light magic at Rumple before he stunned them? Where did it go? 

 

Nope. Her reflexes were no match for Rumpel's.  He froze her before she could zap him with a light ball.

[KingOfHearts]

The deus ex machina aka the Gauntlet poofed her to the real Dagger.

She said it led her to it and showed her where it was, but not that she poofed there. That's an adequate solution, it just wasn't explained on the show.

I freeze framed Emma trying to use magic. That "ball of light magic" I saw was actually Rumple's hand close up to the camera. Ha!

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

I've tracked the "gin and desperation quote to Carson McCullers:

 

 

Nope.  Will & Grace used that line a few years earlier, as I already pointed out upthread.

[Camera One]

Where was the Dagger when Belle picked it up?  Was it just beside Rumple in the clock tower?  He seriously let go of it?  We don't even know what that Hat was even supposed to do, to cleave him from being attached to the Dagger.  But presumably, he would need to be holding the Dagger for it to happen?  Or did he decide to kill Hook while he was waiting for the idiotic stars to align.  In what universe was it a good idea for Snow to accompany Emma to confront Rumple?  Wouldn't it have been faster for Emma to poof herself to the top of the stairs, or has she not learned that skill yet?  

[YaddaYadda]

No, he actually did let go of the dagger.  He put it down on a box behind him while he monologued the hell out of how he had been waiting for that moment (killing Hook) for a long time.

[Donny Ketchum]

Dr. Whale: Rough day?

Mary Margaret: Don’t feel like talking.

Dr. Whale: Come on. Sometimes, it’s easier to talk to someone when you don’t give a crap what they think.

Mary Margaret: You ever walk into a situation, where you know exactly what’s going to happen and then you go into it anyway. And then, when what you’re afraid of happens, you kick yourself. Because you should’ve known better. But that’s just who you are. It’s like you’re punishing yourself.

Dr. Whale: No.

Mary Margaret: How do you do that?

Dr. Whale: By never knowing what’s expected – keeps life interesting. Can I buy you a drink?

Mary Margaret: You can buy me two.

Was that the lead-in to Snow and Whale's one-night stand?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[DrLar]

I can't remember the Maleficent storyline on this show, but they couldn't get an actress that looked more than Angelina Jolie more than Kristin Bauer Van Straten LOL, maybe she even work as her double on some movies! or wasn't the other way around? According to imdb she was Maleficent on 2011 and that movie came last year.

Edited December 18, 2014 by DrLar

[kili]

She tried, but he froze her before she could. She yelled stop and raised her arm, but then got frozen.

 

Was I the only one who thought about Snape yelling at Harry to learn how to cast spells without saying them out-loud? Emma has to learn to sometimes magic first and try reasoning later. If she'd cast her spell before yelling stop, she might have actually had a chance to stop Gold.

 

I'd have much rather seen a scene of Hook apologizing to Belle for not warning her about Rumple earlier when he first found out about the fake dagger than the scene of Emma offering Regina shots.

 

Except that we learned from the Eva/Cora/Leo fall-out that telling somebody the truth about somebody they love means that you are the ultimate evil. Who wants Hook to be responsible for Belle turning into Cora 2.0? Hasn't he enough black spots on his heart already? This show.

 

Wouldn't it have been faster for Emma to poof herself to the top of the stairs, or has she not learned that skill yet?

 

Emma hasn't poofed herself yet. Apparently Belle can do it though. Maybe they should have picked Mopey up at the diner and gotten her to help with a poof to the top of the stairs. That would at least have given them a reason to have Emma go to her after re-hearting Hook.  The entire "How did they get to from the ballroom to the clock-tower" requires some serious fanwanking anyway, might as well grab Regina along the way. But, if they had a person known to poof there, they wouldn't have had to have Belle suddenly able to do it with a magical item we've never heard of before. Is that gauntlet even part of Arthurian legend? Or could Rumple have gotten it in the Land of Blah-Blah-Blah or at Magic-backwardsR-Us and it would not have been any more pulled out of their a$$?

 

I came up with another way they could have fixed the rehearting-next-to-the-bathroom-smell-you-later scene. Maybe they should have had Emma ask Regina how to do it? Then it would make some sense that she wandered around town with his heart in her hand, she re-hearted her boyfriend next to the hallway and promptly went to have drinks with Regina. Still doesn't explain why she shoved his heart into his shoulder rather than his sternum, but it seems to have worked. Maybe because he wears his heart on his sleeve?

[YaddaYadda]

Emma hasn't poofed herself yet. Apparently Belle can do it though.

 

Belle can't poof herself.  She ordered Rumple to poof them to the town line.  

[kili]

Belle can't poof herself.  She ordered Rumple to poof them to the town line.

 

Somehow she got behind Rumple in that tower. The only entrance is the elevator and it is very noisy (as we saw when Emma/Snow got there). The fanwank is that the gauntlet poofed her. It would help with that fanwank if she was actually shown with the gauntlet once she shows up behind Rumple, but I can't find it in the scene. She somehow got behind Rumple without him noticing so she could grab the dagger. There is just no way to get there without some form of magic even with all the monologuing Rumple was doing.

[YaddaYadda]

Ah!  Got it!  I think she bumped into Emma and Snow and they all caught the elevator together.  They didn't really need to distract Rumple because he was already very distracted.  I mean he put his dagger behind him when we know he usually kicks Belle out of bed so that it can sleep right next to him.

 

This is what happens when the writers give us half-assed shows, we have to guess how Emma knew that Hook was in the tower, how Belle got up the stairs...I absolutely hate shows like this where I'm left with more questions than answers.

[KingOfHearts]

Something was really off with Maleficent in this episode. She didn't seem all that menacing or intimidating. Her lines sounded phoned in.

Edited December 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The surprise flashy lights coming from the clock tower would definitely have explained why Emma went there, but it's still not a very satisfying way of getting from Point A (Anna's revelation about Rumple's lies) to Point X (catching him in the clock tower before he can destroy Hook's heart and do the spell). Mostly, that makes it almost an accident that they discovered anything and it means Anna's revelation was actually pointless. If it's just about them seeing lights in the clock tower and going to investigate, then why bother with Anna at all? It could just have been like "Bye, Arendelle gang, have fun storming the castle! So, Granny's?" then after arriving back in town, "Hey, what are those lights? We'd better check it out." And that's a real letdown if they didn't even know anything was going on and never figured anything out. We still have the huge gap of them doing, learning, figuring out, or discovering anything. Then again, Emma's presence in the tower was utterly meaningless, since she didn't get to do anything and we didn't get to see her reaction to Hook's plight. She may as well have shown up later after Hook restored his own heart, and she never even knew what happened.

 

This is exactly what happens at the end of every arc on this show. Some random plot point or clue is dropped on the audience at the last second, so the audience can never piece together the mystery throughout the season and figure it out for ourselves. It's sloppy, lazy writing and insulting to the audience. We were introduced to the random failsafe diamond in Season 2 that we had no idea about until the 11th hour. We were introduced to the Black Fairy's Wand at the final moment in "Going Home," which was apparently essential for stopping pan. We are shown this random gauntlet at the last second which helps Belle figure out what's actually going on with Rumple.

I thought the diamond was built up to, to some extent, since Regina had been talking to Henry about destroying everyone so they could be together, then wiped his mind when he wasn't on board with that, and then she found the beans and thought they were going to abandon her, so she got out the diamond. It wasn't like the possibility of the diamond popped up at the last second.

 

Even if we'd seen more about how the gauntlet worked and seen Bell using it, that would have helped -- if we'd seen in the past how it was used to find the thing someone loved most, and if we'd seen Belle using it to put two and two together, the process of her discovery. Her holding the dagger wasn't a big enough surprise to make skipping her immediate emotional reaction a good idea.

[Curio]

I thought the diamond was built up to, to some extent, since Regina had been talking to Henry about destroying everyone so they could be together, then wiped his mind when he wasn't on board with that, and then she found the beans and thought they were going to abandon her, so she got out the diamond. It wasn't like the possibility of the diamond popped up at the last second.

 

Okay, it might not have been the last second, but it was still pretty late in the season. If I remember correctly, that conversation between Henry and Regina didn't happen until 2.20, two episodes before the finale. That's still pretty late in the season to introduce something as huge and crucial as a self-destruct button that we'd never heard of before then.

 

Even if we'd seen more about how the gauntlet worked and seen Bell using it, that would have helped -- if we'd seen in the past how it was used to find the thing someone loved most, and if we'd seen Belle using it to put two and two together, the process of her discovery. Her holding the dagger wasn't a big enough surprise to make skipping her immediate emotional reaction a good idea.

 

 

I'm surprised we didn't even see her or Rumple using it in the episode's flashback. I was actually a bit confused at first because I thought the way the gauntlet worked is that it could only show a person's weakness if they were wearing it, so I thought it was going to show Belle's biggest fear.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Ah!  Got it!  I think she bumped into Emma and Snow and they all caught the elevator together.

But we see the elevator door open, and Emma and Snow are the only ones in it. You can see to the back, so its not like she was hiding behind them.

[YaddaYadda]

But we see the elevator door open, and Emma and Snow are the only ones in it. You can see to the back, so its not like she was hiding behind them.

 

Logic need not apply when I'm trying to make sense of what happened.  Because we don't know that happened and we will never find out.  Actually, it would be nice if someone asked our fearless writers what it is that happened.  What Emma found out, how she knew Hook was in trouble, if she bumped into Belle, how she knew to go to the clock tower (although she was probably following the CGI)...and so on.  They could work on that during the Holidays.

[Mitch]

Did they ever explain WHY the SQ wanted to poison Marion? It seems random. Also, their rules are once again screwed up for plot...okay, Marion can cross the town line and the magic has no power..which makes sense with the shows cannon, but why was the Wizard able to transform into a monkey in New York?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Did they ever explain WHY the SQ wanted to poison Marion? It seems random. Also, their rules are once again screwed up for plot...okay, Marion can cross the town line and the magic has no power..which makes sense with the shows cannon, but why was the Wizard able to transform into a monkey in New York?

Because The Land Without Magic is only without magic when it's convenient. Otherwise, plot holes are fair game.

 

I believe Ingrid did it to frame Elsa so the town would turn on her in order to show her that normal people can't be trusted. It was all part of a manipulation. The fact it was Marian was just by chance... or Ingrid is an Outlaw Queen shipper, like Zelena with CS. Maybe all the Big Bads are just part of a one giant ship war.

Edited December 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[MedievalGirl]

So I realize that the scene with Emma and Regina at Granny's isn't popular but I love the exchange about "Here's the hope speech." "You have mistaken me for my mother."

I also really liked how Emma jumped around like a boxer warming up while getting ready to storm Regina's vault. 

As for Emma calling out to Gold before trying to magically blast him - isn't that a family trait from David? :)

[Mitch]

Because The Land Without Magic is only without magic when it's convenient. Otherwise, plot holes are fair game.

 

I wish people would ask A & E that..whenever I look at a Twitter or anyplace the viewers can ask questions it always.."Are Emma and Hook going to have scenes.." (insert any actor, character here) and nothing on things like how much this show makes no sense!

[kili]

The surprise flashy lights coming from the clock tower would definitely have explained why Emma went there, but it's still not a very satisfying way of getting from Point A (Anna's revelation about Rumple's lies) to Point X (catching him in the clock tower before he can destroy Hook's heart and do the spell). Mostly, that makes it almost an accident that they discovered anything and it means Anna's revelation was actually pointless

 

I have two problems with Anna's "Rumple lies" statement.

 

1) He actually doesn't lie all that much. He's a creative shader of the truth. One discovers that to one's dismay as one realizes the deal that one made is not going to turn out as one had hoped. I could hear her say "Rumple? Oh, you have to watch yourself around that dude. He's pretty cagey and turned someone into a mouse!"

 

2) Why would they have not dismissed her anyway? All season long, people have been getting lectures and stink-eyes for mentioning that Regina used to be a villain. Why didn't they just tsk-tsk her and inform her that Rumple used to be bad, but now he has changed?  He sacrificed himself for the town! He helped defeat Zelena (without his intel about Glinda, they would have never figured out how to defeat Zelena - he helped out more than Neal did and he gets called a hero). Sure, maybe he claimed he didn't know Anna and that is a lie, but the man has been kicking around for 300 years. I have lived much less than that and I can't remember everybody I've ever met. Regina recently enslaved a man in a mirror and they are still prepared to believe her goodness.

 

How can the same people who give Regina every benefit of the doubt suddenly get from "Rumple lies" to "Town crisis! Let's find him before he does something evil."?  Why isn't their reaction: "That's odd. He said he never met you. I guess he forgot. He's changed a lot."? If she told them about the hat, "That's creepy.It sucks out magical power? You were going to use it on Ingrid? I wonder where she left it?". If she told him about the mousing of a man - "He doesn't do that anymore."

 

Edited December 19, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

I've got major issues with Anna revealing Gold's secrets. For one, it was contrived and made little sense for her to stop before entering the portal. My headcanon is she already suspected it, but kept her mouth shut before knowing for sure. Then when they told her, she feigned surprise. I don't believe that was going through the heads of the writers, though. It was a deus ex machina moment.

 

My problem is that there were multiple other ways they could have done it that would have been way more relevant to the rest of 4A. There was the voicemail, Belle's knowledge of the hat, Henry working at Gold's shop, Captain Swan's weirded-out kisses, Henry and Will both seeing Hook during the spell, and Belle being trapped in the shop for protection. Why did they need Anna stopping at the portal and a gauntlet? It was so incredibly unnecessary. 

[YaddaYadda]

I thought the worst part was when Hook walked into Granny's (being controlled by Rumple) and then he's talking and he doesn't say Gold, he says our Rumplestltskin which I thought for sure Anna would hear and be like "wait, what?"