S03.E09: The Climb

[thuganomics85]

 

But do they also heal the splat of hitting the ground after at least a 500 foot fall?

It will be OK.  Unbeknownst to us, Felicity secretly called Barry about what's going on, so he zipped over there, and saw Ollie fall, and magically zipped up the mountain to save him.  And, hey, even if he was a bit too sloppy, and merely just caused Ollie to break his legs, it's still good!  I'm sure Wells has a spare wheelchair or two.

 

I forgot all about the flashbacks.  I was so pumped up when it looked like China White and Katana, were getting ready to throw down, only for it to end before it barely began.  What is there deal with a lack of China?  Does Kelly Hu only allow them to film her for only a certain amount of hours and they're like "Well, she was in The Scorpion King, so we must accommodate!"  I feel like there is the potential for a real badass character there, but they don't take advantage of it.

 

Oh, and I also forgot my favorite out-of-context line:

Dinah (at Sara's grave): She deserved better.  

 

Yes she did, Dinah.  Way more accurate then the writers probably attended that line to be.

[Guest]

There really is no way around this other than the lazarus pits, is there? I mean, the fall he took off that cliff could have been lessened by the amount of snow on the ground. It sounds silly but if it was thick enough, it's possible I guess? But his injuries were severe. He wasn't stabbed in the heart but the first wound looked like a spleen injury to me and if you bleed out there you're a goner. 

 

 

I totally teared upped. Stephen was awesome and sold me on his death. I honestly did not expect to to see him get run through. I thought he would slip off the cliff trying to stab Ras so yup, I gasped and cried a bit.

 

I must admit that final stab wound got me right in the heart. SA was really great in that scene. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by Guest

[Betweenthisandthat]

I wouldn't have told her a thing either. The difference between telling Quentin about Sara and telling Laurel about Oliver's duel with Ra's in Nanda Parbat is that Quentin could have been useful in investigating the death, thereby negating Ra's seeming need to kill Starling City innocents in order to protect the LoA's rep.

 

My memories of Quentin isn't that he's the rational one who doesn't fly off the handle.  From season 1, he's been the guy who was once so focused on who the hood was that he was willing to do anything, even use his own daughter to get him.  He's not this level-headed cop that people make him out to be.  He's made a lot of mistakes, been very angry on several occasions, has had his own addictions, been pretty damn stubborn and has rushed to think many, many things that I don't see why all of a sudden he's not as volatile as Laurel is or even worse.  I like the character and dislike this story but based on how he's written, I don't see him as the police officer who'd get justice.  He'd get revenge too, if a heart attack wouldn't kill him first.  Laurel and Quentin aren't that different.  Quentin has abused the power he has because we've seen that he has tunnel vision.  Laurel has been wrong about a lot, but she was right about Blood when no one else would believe her and give her the time of day.  So I don't think it's so black and white.  In the end, I don't fault them.  I can't really be angry at these characters.  The writers on the other hand?  

 

Eh, I can't even waste time being pissed at them.  They don't give a shit what I think.  I'm glad for the hiatus, and I'll come back and hope for something good to come out of this season, but there are a lot of characters getting bad if not just sloppy treatment, and if I don't enjoy what I do see, I'll do something else with my Wednesdays.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[Password]

Hold up are we forgetting something. The Lazarus Pits HAS to be in use because Ra's is apparently 78 years old. He killed when he was 11, then said that was 67 years ago. Perhaps they'll forgo the going crazy thing for Arrow's sake, but keep the fountain of youth thing

Unless I'm to believe Ra's either uses Maybeline or he's born with it.

[statsgirl]

Quentin's was angry at Oliver in s1 because he blamed him for Sara's death and hurting Laurel. Since he got over that, he's been okay with the Arrow s2, and cheering him on in s3.  Laurel, on the other hand, has been up and down, up and down....

I don't think Thea will ever come to Team Arrow because she'll never get an invitation. They work in the basement of her club yet they still treat her like the red-headed step child. Unbelievable.

 

 

And then, and then and then, that Team Arrow dropped the ball so hard (or casually) on Sara's murder that Ras Al Ghul actually had to put a timestamp on that shit. I can't with this show. I just....I am so glad I have liquor.

I don't see Thea getting an invitation to Team Arrow because they can't trust her. She's still lying to Oliver and putting Malcolm ahead of him. If she's doing that to Oliver, there's no way Diggle and Felicity can trust her.  If Oliver doesn't come back right away, I'm hoping Diggle, Felicity and Roy go over to Thea's and stage an intervention and lay down some truths on her.

 

I don't think Team Arrow dropped the ball that badly on Sara's murder.  They, or rather Felicity has been looking into it as she got evidence in drips and drabs.  Maybe if Laurel had told her father, he could have got some crime scene investigators over there right away, or not dragged Sara's body to the Arrow cave probably destroying evidence along the way.  But two months isn't that long when it's a murder case.

 

The really bad writing is for Ra's, who in ep 3x04 couldn't care less that his daughter's lover had died because she had never really belonged, and now suddenly he's giving Oliver 48 hours to find the killer.

[KirkB]

Until tonight I seriously doubted the show is going to do the Lazarus pits, though Ra's saying no one has challenged him in 67 years makes me question that. Still, it isn't necessary. Oliver just got stabbed and tossed off the mountain. That kind of thing happens in comics all the time. The character is usually only incapacitated until it becomes dramatically appropriate for them to come back. What's really odd is that somewhere on here I posted that Ra's was going to stab Oliver and throw him off the cliff. I'm not usually THAT dead on.

 

Malcolm drugged Thea and had her kill Sara to frame Oliver to make Oliver fight Ra's so he can kill Ra's and...wait, what? That doesn't make any sense. He can't really believe Oliver has a chance of beating Ra's when he beat Oliver quite easily himself. I get that Malcolm is a manipulative bastard and all that but at least his twisted plans generally have some delusional reasoning behind them.

 

Ra's changing his tune on Sara. Is it bad writing in that the EP's forgot what they had him say the last time (probably) or could it mean something else?

 

Every time they showed Oliver climbing the mountain I kept thinking "Why the hell isn't he wearing gloves?"

 

Sara is dead. Oliver knows. Diggle knows. Felicity knows. Roy knows. Caitlin knows. Cisco knows. Wells knows. Joe knows. Lyla knows. Malcolm knows. Nyssa knows. Ra's knows. Maseo knows. Thea knows. Dinah knows. Quentin doesn't. And Laurel is still insisting he never can know. If they are trying to make me hate Laurel they are doing it right.

Edited December 11, 2014 by KirkB

[slayer2]

There really is no way around this other than the lazarus pits, is there? I mean, the fall he took off that cliff could have been lessened by the amount of snow on the ground. It sounds silly but if it was thick enough, it's possible I guess? But his injuries were severe. He wasn't stabbed in the heart but the first wound looked like a spleen injury to me and if you bleed out there you're a goner. 

 

 

 

I must admit that final stab wound got me right in the heart. SA was really great in that scene. 

Apparently the snow in BC is softer than it is in Ontario or Quebec so.... ;)

 

 

I don't see Thea getting an invitation to Team Arrow because they can't trust her. She's still lying to Oliver and putting Malcolm ahead of him. If she's doing that to Oliver, there's no way Diggle and Felicity can trust her.  If Oliver doesn't come back right away, I'm hoping Diggle, Felicity and Roy go over to Thea's and stage an intervention and lay down some truths on her.

 

Except that Team Arrow couldn't find truths with the foursquare app. How anybody can look at Thea like she's such a terrible person for lying to Oliver when him and people he met 3 years ago have been lying to his family (whom he's known his whole life) is beyond me. They can't have one set of rules for themselves and another entirely for other people. They are still vigilantes, they have no orders under law or god they are doing it of their own volition and they're not somehow more justified than Thea, or Ray or The Huntress or even Laurel in secret keeping. They are all guilty of lies and they can't expect Thea to blindly trust her brother when it takes her absconding for 6months with no contact to get a tiny bit truth out of his lying, manipulative, coddling ass.

Edited December 11, 2014 by slayer2

[Jediknight]

Hold up are we forgetting something. The Lazarus Pits HAS to be in use because Ra's is apparently 78 years old. He killed when he was 11, then said that was 67 years ago. Perhaps they'll forgo the going crazy thing for Arrow's sake, but keep the fountain of youth thing

Unless I'm to believe Ra's either uses Maybeline or he's born with it.

He's older than 78 in this continuity.  He mentioned it's been 67 years since someone challenged him, and he said that the first life he took at 11 was the first of thousands.  So it's established that Ra's has been around for a very long time in Arrow.

[wingster55]

I don't see Thea getting an invitation to Team Arrow because they can't trust her. She's still lying to Oliver and putting Malcolm ahead of him. If she's doing that to Oliver, there's no way Diggle and Felicity can trust her.

 

So Diggle and Felicity can't trust someone who lies to their sibling? Or is lying to Oliver the worst sin of them all. Plus...when did she put Malcolm ahead of Oliver? 

[calliope1975]

I'm pretty whelmed. Not over or under, just whelmed. 

 

First off, I thought SA was excellent. I think he nailed every emotion he was going for - denial, anger, resignation, etc. And the stunt folk were fantastic. Minus the Thea/Arrow fight scene. That one felt a little off. 

 

EBR looked banging in that red dress. I'm glad it made it's way over from The Flash. 

 

But everything also felt so disjointed. The Ray stuff should have been put off. It seemed out of place in this high stakes episode. (And I'm over his stalking tendencies. It's not cute, and I don't want Felicity to fall for or be okay with that crap. Stop saying this is okay behavior, Writers.) I wanted more from all of Team Arrow when Oliver left. It seemed like he was going off for some mildly unpleasant vacation, not to fight freaking Ra's al Ghul!

 

The entire Thea story line is just too stupid to even try to piece together. Yeah, Merlyn's crazy, but I hate that they're ruining Thea's character (and even if this is all one big fakeout, she still seems to trust him) and killed off an great character for...what? This? Lame.

 

Matt Nable was alright as Ra's but I wasn't impressed. I kept imaging how much better Nick Tarabay could have been after seeing him as Cap Boomerang and got sad. It was too easy to see when it was the stunt guy, too, so that took me out of the scene, though it was a fantastic fight. Nyssa was badass as per usual, though. And I enjoyed seeing Maseo in the present even if I'm bored with Hong Kong. I suspect Katana is still out there because I refuse to believe TIIC would kill yet another woman off. (I know, I'm giving them too much credit.)

 

Laurel? No. Just no. I can't say anything nice so I'll just reiterate I have zero sympathy for her. Woe is her and all that jazz. Quentin - please adopt Felicity, Roy, Thea, and Oliver and make them lasagna and be happy. 

[90 Day Pinochet]

I'm already tired of the implication that shipping Olicity = being happy with the show. Is that the only aspect of the show we're capable of caring about? And even if it were, why would any Olicity fan be over the moon about their storyline thus far this season?

 

In fairness, the commentor you were responding to made shipping Olicity a necessary condition of stomaching Arrow when it veers off into hot garbage territory, not a sufficient condition. However, given that this season's Olicity arch has largely consisted of small audience teases followed by Oliver saying a brooding superhero version of:

your point is well taken.

 

*Disclaimer: Although I promise I am not a Lauriver truther, I am a part of Arrow fandom that the writers consistently neglect... Amanda Waller and Chase the DJ shippers.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 90 Day Pinochet

[BkWurm1]

The shift from Felicity and Ray as a romantic pairing to being vigilante partners. I hope that this means they aren't going to pursue a Felicity/Ray relationship. It just makes no sense even if Felicity thinks Oliver is dead

 

.This, please this.  I can't under any circumstances imagine any way that Felicity would be with Ray in a romantic way.  Ray's not really ready and she should be a wreck.

 

Actually, I can think of one scenario; you don't think the show might be planning a time jump do you and not have Oliver show up for like a year or so?

[slayer2]

Hold up are we forgetting something. The Lazarus Pits HAS to be in use because Ra's is apparently 78 years old. He killed when he was 11, then said that was 67 years ago. Perhaps they'll forgo the going crazy thing for Arrow's sake, but keep the fountain of youth thing

Unless I'm to believe Ra's either uses Maybeline or he's born with it.

This is actually amazing.

[SleepDeprived]

So, I just-watched the live West Coast feed of the episode and there's a couple of things I'll need answers to. Which I probably won't get since these are likely plot holes that the writers rushed to get to their awesome twisty mid-season finale!

 

1. I'm guessing the OMEGA virus bio-weapon that China White and Amanda Waller are fighting over will play some significant role in the finale in May?
2. How did Malcolm know Sara would be in Starling City? He got there a day before Sara died and Merlyn was traveling by plane for a bit if he went to Tijuana, Caracas, Corto Maltese back and forth. Where did he get her schedule?
3. So Ra's hobby is to fight with his underlings and kill them for fun?
4. Where was Thea's voice modulator? Was Malcolm the one who said "Hello, Sara" then filmed Thea shooting Sara? Do it for the vine, Thea!
5. We finally saw the true hero of Starling City! Mr. Window Replacer Guy! Boy, that man must be rolling in the dough.
6. Who carried the large drawer of knives up that neutral ground mountain?
7. I snickered a little bit that going shirtless in a trial by combat, in the snow, is a mandated custom by the League of Assassins. I was thankful for it (I have missed the eyecandy) but lol.

[MsSchadenfreude]

I enjoyed this episode, but then with the exception of Laurel and not telling Quentin about Sara, I've pretty much been enjoying this season.

 

Aww, Quentin thinks of Arrow as the closest thing to a partner he has.

 

Bwahahaha! at Felicity calling Roy short and small.  "After the virtual autopsy, the reason I thought it was Roy who killed Sara was because the archer was not average size."

 

I don't think there was any retconning with Ra's regarding Sara.  I thought it was pretty clear in this episode that he didn't give a crap about Sara.  This wasn't about revenge for Sara's murder (at least not for Ra's), it was about Ra's making an example out of Oliver Queen because Oliver had the nerve to go against the LOA (and offer Merlyn his protection).  Sara's murder was just the means to that end. 

 

The fight was awesome and I'm glad Oliver didn't win.  If Ra's is truly supposed to be the demon head, then he should be able to best Oliver at least the first time they meet.   But watching Oliver get skewed hurt my heart. Poor baby, just has shitty luck when it comes to duels.  However, given that Oliver wasn't stabbed in the heart, I don't think his survival is going to have anything to do with the Lazurus Pits.

 

Liked seeing Thea kicking ass, but I better see some remorse when/if she finds out what her brother sacrificed for her.

 

Malcolm, you are a sick bastard not to mention an awful father, but at least you are consistent about it.  

 

Loved all of Oliver's goodbyes.  Telling Thea he loved her no matter what. Asking Roy to watch over Thea and then the bro hug made me smile.  I thought Oliver/Diggle handshake worked.  Diggle isn't really the huggy type.  One hug in the hospital after Sara's birth doesn't really change that.  Plus, I thought Diggle was going for the whole stoic "I'll take care of everything while you're gone" manly handshake.  As for Oliver/Felicity, I loved their goodbye.  I actually think some big passionate kiss would have been misplaced in the context of that scene. The forehead kiss and the simple "I love you" was perfect.

 

Liked the shout out to last season when Felicity told Oliver to do whatever it took to rescue Thea from Slade when this time Oliver told Felicity he would do whatever it took to save Thea from Ra's.

 

Sob :( at Oliver seeing his parents, sister and Felicity as he tumbled to his "not death" because Oliver isn't dead.  Nope, totally not dead, at best he is just mostly dead.

Edited December 11, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[apinknightmare]

I wanted more from all of Team Arrow when Oliver left. It seemed like he was going off for some mildly unpleasant vacation, not to fight freaking Ra's al Ghul!

 

Yeah, although I think that might've been purposeful. I don't think any of them actually thought that he wouldn't come back - that's going to make the revelation that he's "dead" that much more awful. I hate myself but I'm kind of wanting to tune in for that. 

 

 

I know, I'm going in the corner. 

[calliope1975]

 

So, I just-watched the live West Coast feed of the episode and there's a couple of things I'll need answers to. Which I probably won't get since these are likely plot holes that the writers rushed to get to their awesome twisty mid-season finale!

 

1. I'm guessing the OMEGA virus bio-weapon that China White and Amanda Waller are fighting over will play some significant role in the finale in May?
2. How did Malcolm know Sara would be in Starling City? He got there a day before Sara died and Merlyn was traveling by plane for a bit if he went to Tijuana, Caracas, Corto Maltese back and forth. Where did he get her schedule?
3. So Ra's hobby is to fight with his underlings and kill them for fun?
4. Where was Thea's voice modulator? Was Malcolm the one who said "Hello, Sara" then filmed Thea shooting Sara? Do it for the vine, Thea!
5. We finally saw the true hero of Starling City! Mr. Window Replacer Guy! Boy, that man must be rolling in the dough.
6. Who carried the large drawer of knives up that neutral ground mountain?
7. I snickered a little bit that going shirtless in a trial by combat, in the snow, is a mandated custom by the League of Assassins. I was thankful for it (I have missed the eyecandy) but lol.

 

 

These are all excellent questions. So many plot holes. You would think Sara might have more of a reaction to Thea dressed as LOA while Merlyn creeps in the background videoing everything with his phone. It happened quickly, but I would think she'd be all "What the fuck?" instead of "Hey Thea, what are you doing here on this roof?" all quizzically. 

 

I, too, was happy to see Starling City's Doors and Windows get more business, but I almost feel he's selling shoddy replacements in the hopes of more business. 

 

As far as shirtlessness, I appreciate the League thinking of what I like to see. Is this rule gender neutral? Do the ladies also have to go topless? I would like a copy of the League handbook for research purposes.

[apinknightmare]

I, too, was happy to see Starling City's Doors and Windows get more business, but I almost feel he's selling shoddy replacements in the hopes of more business. 

 

"Double pane? Nah, fuck it." - Starling City's Doors and Windows guy

[slayer2]

 

Liked seeing Thea kicking ass, but I better see some remorse when/if she finds out what her brother sacrificed for her.

But why must Thea feel remorse? A) She was under the influence of drugs and B) Oliver robbed her of the choice of going there herself and offering her life, he doesn't know what she would have done but since the decision was about her she had the right to choose. Now it's gonna be all "Thea's being mean one day and Diggle is all "Yeah well he sacrificed everything for you....again". Oliver loves to play the martyr but I can't stand that age old "protect the wimmins" trope. Clark Kent did that shit all day long on Smallville but in the end it was just some version of sadism. Just as the Detective has a right to know his own daughter is dead, so does Thea have a right to know when Oliver is going off to martyr himself because she killed someone without knowing. 

 

Just look what it did to Roy when he wasn't told that he killed someone, he spent weeks believing that he murdered Sara (and Diggle of course told Oliver to dump him. Awesome) Thea has a right to know what she did and why and how, she is the first person that should have been told when Oliver found out. I hate this taking women's agencies from them shit frankly I don't like when anyone's agency is taken from them but it really bothers me when it's a woman or a young girl who has been so manipulated by everyone, like Thea has.

 

 

"Double pane? Nah, fuck it." - Starling City's Doors and Windows guy

It's probably Xander, glorified bricklayer. I'll bet he's making a killing.

Edited December 11, 2014 by slayer2

[SonofaBiscuit]

Haha.  Yeah, I laughed at Oliver flexing his pec muscles.  Really, I just think SA was probably so damn cold in that scene that he was flinching or whatnot.

 

People occasionally miraculously survive extreme falls in real life, so why not here too?  Oliver desperately needs a win, damn it.

[apinknightmare]

People occasionally miraculously survive extreme falls in real life, so why not here too?  Oliver desperately needs a win, damn it.

 

They do, it's just the whole being run through and bleeding out the mouth that's troubling. 

 

I really hope the baggie of island herbs managed to quell the internal bleeding. Did he stash some on the side of the cliff for safekeeping just in case? Or were they in his lil messenger bag up on the mountaintop? And it's like, screw you, Ra's. You run him through, make him fall off a cliff, and on the off chance he survives he doesn't even have a shirt to keep him warm, although maybe his nipples being hard enough to cut glass might come in handy, idk

[SonofaBiscuit]

Pretty sure that I saw Oliver stash those herbs in his pant's pockets (OK, that's a lie).  In the preview at the end of the episode, someone comes upon his broken body, so I'm just going to pretend that they have the life-saving herbs (and Oliver has managed to not bleed out because it's so damn cold being shirtless in the snow).

Edited December 11, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

But why must Thea feel remorse?

 

If my brother died protecting me, even if I didn't ask him too, I'd feel remorseful about it.  I didn't say Thea was responsible for Oliver's "death", clearly she isn't.  Sorry, I never watched Smallville, so I have no idea what Clark Kent did or didn't do on that show. :)

[slayer2]

 

If my brother died protecting me, even if I didn't ask him too, I'd feel remorseful about it.  I didn't say Thea was responsible for Oliver's "death", clearly she isn't.  Sorry, I never watched Smallville, so I have no idea what Clark Kent did or didn't do on that show. :)

I wouldn't feel remorse. She hasn't done much to feel guilty about IMO. I would feel sad and angry and betrayed but she's not guilty of anything. She was tricked, mind-controlled and manipulated, par for the course with that character I guess.

 

I wouldn't apologize for not watching Smallville. You got away clean.

[La Dee Da]

I know that this is ridiculous, but I'm just not okay with Oliver really being dead and them using a Lazarus Pit on him.  It seems too magical to me, and I liked that this show was mostly based in reality.  I think this is the thing that bothers me the most about the finale, actually!  I can't let it go.  Maybe Malcolm has some magical healing herbs to use on Oliver, or something (but probably not)?

I prefer deaths on this show to have meaning - they don't if some can be reversed by a cheat code while others remain permanent for plot reasons.  A Lazarus Pit with healing powers, okay.  Or the magical mindbending plant (mentioned by Malcolm and in the flashbacks for a reason) was used by Oliver/Malcolm/Maseo to make those in attendance believe Oliver was stabbed and fell? 

 

Loved this moment.

 

And I can never give SA enough kudos for playing it with such intensity. ALL THE FEELS.

 

I liked this scene - tender and full of promise (making that last bit so hard to watch).  Felicity basically told him to fight to come back and Oliver was unequivocal in his feelings.  But my favourite part of this picture is how the triangle on Oliver's shirt looks like a cutout - an hommage to Felicity's fashion choices :) Some married couples do tend to dress alike! 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought MG said that we would see in this episode why Laurel puts on the BC costume. Unless it's to keep fooling Quentin, I still don't see why.

 

 

 

I took Dinah's "you do what it takes" to bring Sara's killer to justice to be the lightbulb moment for Laurel.  I assume that's why they had the Laurel/Thea scene at the beginning - so when Laurel finds out Thea is currently the killer, she has to decide if she will take extreme measures in that situation.   

 

I mostly liked the episode - the duel was good (I assume Ra's didn't climb the cliff - nice built in advantage for the home team), the emotional reactions as the trail to Thea started to appear - but like the premiere, it needed more time (or better time allocation) to address some of the points you guys have already mentioned.    

 

 

 

 

[slayer2]

Annnnd I just realized this episode was named after a Miley Cyrus song, explains a lot.

[bluebonnet]

Hmm, maybe Oliver just fell on the ledge that was five feet from the top.  His survival from a fall that short would make sense, if he took the special savior herbs.

[Chaser]

I cringed so hard when Thea went after Arrow. I thought it looked so awkward. Than I laughed at her Peace Out with the MC Hammer pants. I feel so bad for Willa Holland. This is the storyline she was saddled with? A pawn in Malcolm's game. I hate it. 

 

Really disappointed Laurel didn't tell both her parents. Honestly, I decided to FF the Laurel scenes after I watched her tell Thea, stumble over why its a secret and then ask Thea not to tell Oliver. It didn't sound like it got much better either. t don't understand the writers. I feel bad for KC and PB. 

 

Totally agree with everyone who was disappointed in Oliver and Diggle goodbye. I expected more. Raised eyebrow at Roy's lack of reaction to Thea. I get she was brainwashed, but still. There was nothing. 

 

Ra's was better then I thought, but I'm not sure that says much. Nyssa is a Goddess. Can she rule the LOA please? I was annoyed at the beginning of the fight because I thought Oliver would be better. Glad it picked up. Glad Ra's won. Oliver's "death" was more brutal then I thought. I'm thinking they are going with the Lazarus Pit but they could also go with that Pit Prison so he can 'Rise.' 

 

Ray, Ray, Ray. Stop tracking Felicity. Felicity, Felicity, Felicity. Stop letting him. That being said, I liked the scene where she called him on his super secret plans. No romance please.

 

I thought Oliver was surprising upbeat about going off to fight Ra's. False bravado perhaps? The scene was more of a 6/7 to me than a 9. I liked that casual I Love You, the callback to Two Things, the Anything For You. I liked the forehead kiss. I liked Felicity's plea and did not find it OOC at all. I understand that Felicity doesn't know all that Oliver has gone thru in terms of emotional awareness, but I would have liked to see a bit more from her. Granted this is the first time he has said I Love You as a statement, no reverse or cameras around. I'm now convinced they are saving her big I Love You for the end of the season.

 

The flashback montage when Oliver was 'dying' was effective. I want more flashbacks with Robert and Moira by the way. Thea as a teenager was a nice touch. Remembering the kiss with Felicity, that was the 9 for me.

 

ETA: As much as I had no desire to watch a goodbye scene with Oliver and Laurel, I did find it weird that there wasn't any interaction or even mention from Oliver. On one hand I actually think it was smart given Laurel's track record for jumping the gun. But since Sara was supposed to be the motivation for Laurel's Black Canary Arc, it surprises me how completely removed from the actual groundwork of the investigation she is.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Password]

To me the flashback was the 9. Not the ILY.

[catrox14]

Oh Gods when they showed Moira I was so sad and actually said, I miss you Moira.

[statsgirl]

Moira was a picture in one of the Christmas ornaments, wasn't she?

 

Except that Team Arrow couldn't find truths with the foursquare app. How anybody can look at Thea like she's such a terrible person for lying to Oliver when him and people he met 3 years ago have been lying to his family (whom he's known his whole life) is beyond me. 

Everybody has secrets on this show, it's SOP.  But with Thea and Malcolm, she knows he's a psychopath who without hesitation murdered over 500 people in the Glades including his own son, and maybe by now she also knows he murdered her father and had Walter kidnapped.  It's not like she's suddenly struck up a relationship with her formerly deadbeat dad.  This is s very dangerous man and she knows it, she tried to shoot him herself.

 

So to deliberately choose Malcolm's side (by hiding that she's been living with him and training with him) because Oliver lied about knowing he was her biological father for two weeks, it seems an immature and stupid choice.  There's no way I would tell her about the Arrow cave because the first opportunity she saw to score point with Malcolm, she would tell  him all the secrets.

 

IThe entire Thea story line is just too stupid to even try to piece together. Yeah, Merlyn's crazy, but I hate that they're ruining Thea's character (and even if this is all one big fakeout, she still seems to trust him) and killed off an great character for...what? This? Lame.

I had great hopes for the Thea/Merlyn stuff.  I really wanted her to go all Moira on him and beat him at his own manipulative game.  But Thea's been turned into a dummy, accepting what he says without question because he's her only living parent and "never lied to her", lying to everyone else for him, and finally being turned into a real dummy (as in ventriloquist's doll) with the stupidest of all tropes, the drugs that let them control your mind and you can't remember it.

 

Poor Willa Holland.  The EPs said that KC and WH would get really good storylines s3 because they' were troopers for the lack of stories in the first 2 season. Well KC got hers but WH really got gypped.

 

1. How did Malcolm know Sara would be in Starling City? He got there a day before Sara died and Merlyn was traveling by plane for a bit if he went to Tijuana, Caracas, Corto Maltese back and forth. Where did he get her schedule?
2. So Ra's hobby is to fight with his underlings and kill them for fun?

I wasn't into the comics and I find Ra's creepy, Icky creepy, not fun creepy.

 

Sara was tailing Malcolm for the LoA, wasn't she?  All he would have to do would be to drop hints where he was going to be and she'd pick them up like breadcrumbs.

 

I don't think there was any retconning with Ra's regarding Sara.  I thought it was pretty clear in this episode that he didn't give a crap about Sara.  This wasn't about revenge for Sara's murder (at least not for Ra's), it was about Ra's making an example out of Oliver Queen because Oliver had the nerve to go against the LOA (and offer Merlyn his protection).  Sara's murder was just the means to that end.

That's a good point, and the only way Ra's behaviour makes sense.

 

Poor Sara, she really was just a plot point for everyone except Nyssa and Quentin.

 

II took Dinah's "you do what it takes" to bring Sara's killer to justice to be the lightbulb moment for Laurel.  I assume that's why they had the Laurel/Thea scene at the beginning - so when Laurel finds out Thea is currently the killer, she has to decide if she will take extreme measures in that situation.     

That makes sense, and it parallels Oliver saying he finally knows what he's fighting for.

 

But like the clues to Sara's murder, Laurel has had so many lightbulb moments this season that if this is the big one, it got overlooked.  Laurel has already been "doing what it takes" in terms of lashing out at people in her anger and taking boxing lessons;  is what it takes to find and punish Sara's killer putting on a costume rather than looking at the evidence?

Edited December 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

We finally saw the true hero of Starling City! Mr. Window Replacer Guy! Boy, that man must be rolling in the dough.

 

For the win!

 

But why must Thea feel remorse? A) She was under the influence of drugs and B) Oliver robbed her of the choice of going there herself and offering her life, he doesn't know what she would have done but since the decision was about her she had the right to choose. Now it's gonna be all "Thea's being mean one day and Diggle is all "Yeah well he sacrificed everything for you....again".

 

Why should she feel remorse?  Because she threw her lot in with Malcolm Merlyn and trusted him which is what led to Malcolm being able to drug her and make her a murderer in his convoluted plot to get Oliver to try to kill Ra's.  I can understand where and why she made her bad choices, but she made them and she has to live with them. 

 

Speaking of Malcolm's convoluted plan, I really hope there is more to it and we haven't heard all the details of it yet, cause as someone who had actually met Ra's, I'd expect Malcolm to know full well Oliver's chances were almost nil. 

 

About Ray tracking Felicity down after she said she didn't want to talk about the kiss anymore.  As pointed out to me, when we see Felicity in her red dress, it was the next evening so at least he gave her some space for a while.  Plus in tracking her down to a night club, he could believably have made the guess that she wasn't doing anything truly intimate or important.  He could have been interrupting a date, but he was willing to take that chance.  She also could have told him she was leaving and shut her phone off (or rigged it to look like it was) so it's not like she didn't have any control over seeing and talking to him. 

 

Which leads me to Palmers sob story.  So he was injured during the big fight night and his fiancé was murdered and he is a billionaire that has made his home in Starling City long enough to call it his home.  So none of this would have made the papers anywhere?  Not even say a engagement announcement or anything that hinted about Anna's connection to Palmer?  How about when he took control of Queen Consolidated - the papers didn't think to rehash any personal details?  How about when he changed the name of the company?  These are the kind of life details that get repeated in every press release for the rest of his life.  And how is it that Felicity is only now finding this out because there is no way I'm believing that Felicity didn't do a full no stop background check on the guy. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Ariah]

Quick notes before I'm off to work:

- Malcolm actually amanged to send the video to Oliver's phone when he was being choked? That's a superpower!

- Laurel's "Nobody can know" to Thea just made me drop a cup on my plate and the plate is now broken. Thanks, Laurel!

- The fact that Ra's has NO SCARS on his body has to mean we're seeing the Lazarus Pits, right?

- Ray is still creepy and I was even more freaked out by Felicity's smile when she was staring at him talking about OMAC and ATOM

- Roy didn't ven defend Thea? Why?

 

But I still loved the episode, even though the plot may be illogical and use gizmos like convenient mind-control ("That's a thing?" Thank you, Oliver) to justify action. The final fight was brutally one-sided, and I liked that there was a moment Oliver actually scored a hit - I bet Ra's was surprised.

 

The flash-thought of Oliver's shutting down brain got to me. I was actually hoping the final shot would be Felicity's face framed with light - and we got the kiss! ...and a tumble down the cliff. I would have been really worried, if Stephen got a movie role.

[bluebonnet]

and maybe by now she also knows he murdered her father and had Walter kidnapped.  

She definitely knows.  Moira told everyone all about it. 

 

Yeah, I think Thea should feel some genuine remorse for throwing in with Malcolm.  She was upset that people were lying to her so she turned to a mass murderer.  

[calliope1975]

Which leads me to Palmers sob story.  So he was injured during the big fight night and his fiancé was murdered and he is a billionaire that has made his home in Starling City long enough to call it his home.  So none of this would have made the papers anywhere?  Not even say a engagement announcement or anything that hinted about Anna's connection to Palmer?  How about when he took control of Queen Consolidated - the papers didn't think to rehash any personal details?  How about when he changed the name of the company?  These are the kind of life details that get repeated in every press release for the rest of his life.  And how is it that Felicity is only now finding this out because there is no way I'm believing that Felicity didn't do a full no stop background check on the guy. 

 

My first thought when Ray was talking about his sad times was how did no one know this before now? He's a charismatic billionaire, recognizable enough that Donna Smoak knew who he was right away. A dead fiance and broken leg didn't make the paper? I know those were dark times and a lot of people were hurt, but this is some more lame retconning as far as I'm concerned. Well,  maybe not retconning, but shitty plotting? This is the town that covered a particle accelerator being turned on in another town 6 months in advance like it was the Superbowl. 

 

ETA: Someone on Tumblr said that shot of Felicity should have been the first meeting - pink blouse, red pen. I did feel the scene as is but that might have actually made me cry.

Edited December 11, 2014 by calliope1975

[BkWurm1]

Noticed that the arrow that Oliver pulls from the flash back guy he is torturing seemed to come from about the same spot where Ra's stabbed him. 

[Ceylon5]

This episode was soooo boring.  It should have been emotional, but really, really wasn't.  Yesterday, Barry made me tear up 3 times during The Flash (in an episode I found entertaining throughout), but this episode left me cold, bored and irritated.  Clearly it's not the actors' fault, since they were doing the best they could with what they were given, but for me, the story simply didn't hit any effective emotional beats.  Which in turn left me too much time to think about the awful, awful plot.

 

I haven't been super-sold on the flashbacks for a while now, but today it felt like the entire episode screeched to a halt every time they had a flashback (or a Laurel scene - she even managed to make me glaze over with Alex Kingston on the screen, which is an unprecedented feat).  Side question - both the Lance parents are played by Brits; is there some reason why they have to pretend to have American accents?  Alex Kingston without her accent and her wonderful curls makes me feel cheated.

 

I assume the clumsy, pointless scene of Laurel telling Thea that Sara was dead was supposed to show that Thea didn't remember killing Sara.  The bad writing in this episode honestly made my head hurt, because it was actually all downhill from there, which is a truly scary thought.

 

Actually, I have nothing good to say about this episode, so perhaps I should follow the old adage and say nothing at all.

 

Regarding the timeline, it was established that The Flash episode happened a couple of days before Christmas, and since Felicity spoke to Caitlin after that, that establishes these events as happening right before Christmas too (i.e. they're 2 weeks ahead of the rest of us).  Hopefully this shaves a bit of time off any time jump they do over the hiatus?  Assuming anyone will still be watching then?

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ceylon5

[slayer2]

 

Everybody has secrets on this show, it's SOP.  But with Thea and Malcolm, she knows he's a psychopath who without hesitation murdered over 500 people in the Glades including his own son, and maybe by now she also knows he murdered her father and had Walter kidnapped.  It's not like she's suddenly struck up a relationship with her formerly deadbeat dad.  This is s very dangerous man and she knows it, she tried to shoot him herself.

Team Arrow isn't off the hook. Oliver was killing people in the name of justice and Diggle was all about the vengeance kill until recently, there's blood on all of their hands, what's good for the goose is good for the damn gander. At the end of the day it wouldn't have happened if Oliver had just been honest with her, yeah she threw her lot in with a great big murderer, but Oliver is a murderer too does it count less because he has a significantly lower body count? I don't think so. I don't correspond to the idea that Team Arrow's shit doesn't stink. Oliver, Diggle and Felicity are not in any way perfect and they are certainly not above reproach. If they're going to read other people the riot act they should first take a long look in the full length mirror, there must be one someone in the foundry, maybe hiding behind Sally.

[SleepDeprived]

About Ray tracking Felicity down after she said she didn't want to talk about the kiss anymore.  As pointed out to me, when we see Felicity in her red dress, it was the next evening so at least he gave her some space for a while.  Plus in tracking her down to a night club, he could believably have made the guess that she wasn't doing anything truly intimate or important.  He could have been interrupting a date, but he was willing to take that chance.  She also could have told him she was leaving and shut her phone off (or rigged it to look like it was) so it's not like she didn't have any control over seeing and talking to him.

 

Um, wait. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly so forgive me if this comes off sarcastic or angry. I'm not being either. I just want to be sure. Do you mean to imply that just because Palmer let a day go by without hounding Felicity on a matter she didn't want to talk about that it was okay to track her? By pinging her phone? That just because Felicity talked to him, anyway, what he did was all right, in the end?

 

Sorry. I cannot get on board with that, like at all.

 

Palmer pinging Felicity's phone is a violation of privacy. Full stop. Just because he's anxious that she's mad at him because of the aftermath of the kiss does not give him any right to track her phone and follow her to Verdant, regardless of whether or not she was on a date, busy doing other things or even just lounging around her house. And Felicity should not have to shut her phone off so he would stop stalking her movements. Yeah, she did end up talking to him but it seemed like Felicity caved just so Palmer would stop hounding her about his issues on the kiss.

 

Call. Text. Set a meeting with her at the office. All things Palmer could've done that wouldn't raise red flags and be a problematic behavior that is seemingly being set-up as an endearing quirk by the writers. Palmer, at this point, is just Felicity's boss who is attracted to her and is having feels over the misunderstanding of a kiss. Not a parent worried sick that their child didn't come home the night before. Or a husband looking for a wife that's been missing for days. There was no need to ping an employee's phone and track her location when she's on her downtime because he wants to have a talk.

[bluebonnet]

It would have been different if Felicity had updated her location status on facebook or something.  "Felicity checked in at Verdant".  Then at least Ray could point out that she publicly promoted her location even if she didn't actually invite him to come see her there.  The pinging of the phone and showing up is the creepiest of creeps.  I can't imagine how that got approved in the writer's room. Felicity being totally ok with this dude who stalks her is very OOC.  She doesn't put up with this shit.  

[El Seed]

As for Oliver/Felicity, I loved their goodbye. I actually think some big passionate kiss would have been misplaced in the context of that scene. The forehead kiss and the simple "I love you" was perfect.

 

 

That's how I feel too. I also think Felicity reciprocating the "I love you" would have been wrong for that scene, so I'm happy with the way it played out.

 

Than I laughed at her Peace Out with the MC Hammer pants.

 

 

Haha, I laughed at Thea's pants too. And I may have yelled "Stop: Hammer time!" I have no regrets.

 

I, too, was happy to see Starling City's Doors and Windows get more business, but I almost feel he's selling shoddy replacements in the hopes of more business.

 

 

Saving up for his kid's college fund necessitates a lot of broken windows. Though to be fair, his services wouldn't be required as often if people would use doors for their dramatic entrances and escapes.

 

Why should she feel remorse? Because she threw her lot in with Malcolm Merlyn and trusted him which is what led to Malcolm being able to drug her and make her a murderer in his convoluted plot to get Oliver to try to kill Ra's. I can understand where and why she made her bad choices, but she made them and she has to live with them.

 

Speaking of Malcolm's convoluted plan, I really hope there is more to it and we haven't heard all the details of it yet, cause as someone who had actually met Ra's, I'd expect Malcolm to know full well Oliver's chances were almost nil.

 

 

Why does Thea trust a guy who she knows killed 500 people? I understand she was feeling vulnerable when she decided to join him back in the season 2 finale, but man is it ever dumb to trust a guy who thought killing hundreds, if not an attempted thousands, of people was a good idea. I'm guessing no one ever told her the fable of the scorpion and the frog.

 

Malcolm's plan was oddly convoluted, though I wonder if he considers Ra's killing Oliver a win, which would make his plan a Xanatos Gambit (David Xanatos, now there was a master antagonist). He's not quite a magnificent bastard yet, so he should go the the Lionel Luthor School of Plots with some heavy coursework in Xanatos Gambits.

[Slovenly Muse]

Well, this awful torture storyline is sure... timely. I bet the writers are really wishing they'd gone in a different direction right about now. Especially since, as I believe this site pointed out, the show's message seems to be "the real problem with torture is how much it hurts the torturers." Unless you plan on taking it on for real, some topics are better left unexplored.

 

I really liked the forehead kiss. In fact, I thought it was perfect. Oliver recently saw Felicity kiss another man. As far as he knows, she's moving on from him. He also knows that she is not the obstacle to their having a relationship, and has no reason to believe that declaring his feelings will make her suddenly think they're a good idea, especially because she's always been fairly upfront about her feelings and there's no reason to think they've changed. The kiss was sweet, and it was respectful of their current situation. Kissing her on the lips would have been crossing a line, and that's Ray's thing! 

 

So, they made Thea kind of badass, and are giving her nothing to do. I wish this wasn't a trend on this show, but it is. I hate it when shows try to portray "strong women" and take it so literally that they just give their female characters some physical strength, calling it character growth, and totally neglect to ALSO give them things like choices and agency, and a storyline based on actions they take, which is where the REAL power comes from.

 

Speaking of...

 

I took Dinah's "you do what it takes" to bring Sara's killer to justice to be the lightbulb moment for Laurel.

Yeah, me too. Laurel is supposed to be smart, driven, and stubborn. She also has access to police resources, some fighting skills (enough to get her out of trouble if necessary), and knowledge of investigative techniques. And since the police can't investigate this because they don't know it happened, she wouldn't be tripping over them or stepping on any toes if she did try to look into it herself, which makes it bizzare that she hasn't. Maybe her mother telling her to "do what it takes" will spur her into actually USING those qualities and taking some action, any action, to try and find Sara's killer. Because while she trains with what's-his-face, bides her time at work, and waits for Team Arrow to do the heavy lifting for her, she is a character defined by what happens to her, rather than by what she does. (See above point about Thea.) And that is not how you tell a hero's story.

 

The kicker is, they actually had it right with Sarah (apart from the aforementioned problem of making her a badass woman and then not knowing what to do with her, then sending her away for long stretches so they wouldn't have to figure it out), and they threw it away. God damn it. If they bring Oliver back from the dead, maybe they'll do us all a favour and bring Sarah back too! Maybe Laurel's journey will turn out to be an arrival at the realization that she is elated and relieved Sarah is alive, not just because she's her sister, but also because she's learned that she's not ABLE to fill her shoes and avenge her sister's death the way Sarah would for her, and it changes her entire perspective on vigilantism! Hey, you never know!

[ban1o]

Team Arrow isn't off the hook. Oliver was killing people in the name of justice and Diggle was all about the vengeance kill until recently, there's blood on all of their hands, what's good for the goose is good for the damn gander. At the end of the day it wouldn't have happened if Oliver had just been honest with her, yeah she threw her lot in with a great big murderer, but Oliver is a murderer too does it count less because he has a significantly lower body count? I don't think so. I don't correspond to the idea that Team Arrow's shit doesn't stink. Oliver, Diggle and Felicity are not in any way perfect and they are certainly not above reproach. If they're going to read other people the riot act they should first take a long look in the full length mirror, there must be one someone in the foundry, maybe hiding behind Sally.

Have to say I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this but Thea basically is blindly trusting a psychopath who was responsible for her fathers death, responsible for her brother being on an island for 5 years and for him being all messed up, torturing her step -father, and killing over 500 innocent people because of where they lived (and intended to kill thousands and thousands more probably) including his own son but she sees no problem with it because "he's never lied to her" which we know is bull shit. Team arrow are all fundamentally good people trying to protect the city, and although they aren't perfect, they don't go around killing innocent people. I don't see how that's comparable. Anyway that doesn't take away the fact that Thea is trusting someone who she obviously shouldn't trust who is clearly manipulating her and is making her a bargaining tool to get her brother killed.

Edited December 11, 2014 by ban1o

[looptab]

He is an idiot. Which is why I cackled when Diggle told him he was one of the smartest men he ever knew. I was like...how many men do you know, John? 

I think that would be Oliver, Deadshot and Roy..so, yeah, he is one of the 2 smartest men he knows :D

 

Anyways, I liked the episode a lot, even though  it went mostly as predicted. I was hoping it would surprise me, but I'm fine with it all the same.

I loved Team Arrow trying to cut through Oliver's denial, and then Oliver's face when he finally realizes lying is now second nature for Thea as it is for him. Wake up call, that was it! Also lol at Thea's Hitchcock reference.

Loved Nyssa and Maseo. I really like him.

My favourite scene was the confrontation between Oliver and Malcolm, I loved SA's crazy face when you see Oliver is about to lose it. Actually, I like SA's face, period.

Laurel's scenes, no comment. Just no. So, Dinah is a psychic? And why would she instigate her daughter like that?Okay...

Loved the "if you're asking, I'll do it" and the "OH SHIT," expression Oliver has when Fel tells him he didn't sound that convincing in his "It's all gonna be fine!! See you later ;)"

 

I think they went with the kiss on the flashback  to clarify once and for all the romantic angle. Had it been the first time he saw her there would be people still saying, "See??She's like his little sister to him" since it was after members of his family.

Edited December 11, 2014 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

Um, wait. I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly so forgive me if this comes off sarcastic or angry. I'm not being either. I just want to be sure. Do you mean to imply that just because Palmer let a day go by without hounding Felicity on a matter she didn't want to talk about that it was okay to track her? By pinging her phone? That just because Felicity talked to him, anyway, what he did was all right, in the end?

 

Sorry. I cannot get on board with that, like at all.

 

Palmer pinging Felicity's phone is a violation of privacy. Full stop. Just because he's anxious that she's mad at him because of the aftermath of the kiss does not give him any right to track her phone and follow her to Verdant, regardless of whether or not she was on a date, busy doing other things or even just lounging around her house. And Felicity should not have to shut her phone off so he would stop stalking her movements. Yeah, she did end up talking to him but it seemed like Felicity caved just so Palmer would stop hounding her about his issues on the kiss.

 

Call. Text. Set a meeting with her at the office. All things Palmer could've done that wouldn't raise red flags and be a problematic behavior that is seemingly being set-up as an endearing quirk by the writers. Palmer, at this point, is just Felicity's boss who is attracted to her and is having feels over the misunderstanding of a kiss. Not a parent worried sick that their child didn't come home the night before. Or a husband looking for a wife that's been missing for days. There was no need to ping an employee's phone and track her location when she's on her downtime because he wants to have a talk.

Hear me out.  :) 

 

First, I was originally trying to just point out that 24 hours had gone by since someone mentioned him following her right away from work and pushing to continue talking.  I had missed that point the first time around and it did change my perspective a little.  (as I will explain) On just the point of him wanting to continue the conversation I don't have a huge issue.  Someone trying to talk to you about something you don't want to talk about isn't a heinous crime in my book...as long as it is within reason and trying for a second time on another day falls within reason for me.  The same night would have been too soon, but I'd give him leeway to try to make amends again the next day.  Yes, yes, I there is still the issue of where and when he tried to talk to her.  I'll address that in a moment but first:

 

My only point about Felicity having ways to evade him and his calls was only to point out that she's not a helpless victim.  She has power.  That wasn't a blessing on Palmer's actions, just a comment that she had choices she could make whereas so many victims of true stalkers don't.  Just an observation.

 

As for Palmer pinging her cell phone.  Here's the thing, yes it is probably illegal and it is an invasion of privacy and not normal acceptable behavior and something that could bring about a lawsuit and all that, but that said.... Felicity does it all the time. 

 

I'm pointing it out not to say that what Ray does is automatically ok then, but to suggest that for Felicity, pinging a cell phone isn't that big of a deal.  Yes the first time he did it she called Ray a stalker but she's pretty much decided after knowing the guy that he isn't some dangerous stalker, but just a guy that doesn't think about personal boundaries and does show up at your doorstep at odd times and casually throws out extravagant gifts and thinks nothing of taking care of all the details of a dinner even if when he takes care of the details he is going too far.  The way I see it, Ray can ping a phone as easily as he could send a text.  To him, it's just another method of communication.  He wanted to apologize and explain in person so he decided to show up and see if she would talk to him. 

 

And she was ok with that. Again, hear me out.

 

I completely understand all the reasons why this kind of behavior in the real world can be a scary ass thing.  My best friend just got out an abusive relationship with a guy that she did have to get a restraining order for and was arrested when he decided to show up at her house and pound on her door. (Because there was a car in her driveway he didn't recognize) While they were dating, if he could have pinged her cell phone he would have shown up at the grocery store just so he could accuse her of sneaking around (instead he just timed how long she spent there).

 

The thing is, Ray is not a violent stalker.  Felicity understands his eccentricities.  She apparently has accepted his bad manners as part of who he is and she has not set boundaries correcting him on his behavior so by that, yes I think she is ok with it.  That doesn't mean it doesn't still occasionally frustrate or bug her, but she's not forced to put up with anything he does.  This episode proved it.  If she wants him to do something and he isn't willing to, she is perfectly fine in walking away.  She has power in the relationship.  He may be her boss but their relationship is equal in the sense that him being her employer doesn't at all stop her from doing or saying anything she wants. 

 

This isn't a realistic working relationship, but it is the one that Felicity has with Ray.  He may be a thoughtless jerk but he isn't a danger to her nor does he hold her hostage through her job.  He wants and needs her help more than she needs or wants anything he has to offer her.  That is what I get from Felicity's reaction to Ray. 

 

Ray really shouldn't be pinging phones and showing up out of the blue, but it's done without malicious intent and Felicity does allow it so I just can't get too angry about it.  His actions are eye rolling and intrusive at times, but not scary or a deal breaker for Felicity. 

 

I'm perfectly fine shaking my fist at the writers for creating a bad example for impressionable viewers who might not understand and mislabel his behavior as normal or reasonable or heaven forbid, romantic, but the character doing these things makes sense for the character and isn't a threat so, no it doesn't bother me.  

 

It's fine if it does bother others but I also think it's fine if it doesn't given the character and circumstances. 

[bluebonnet]

Well, BkWurm1, you just convinced me to lower the rage I feel over this stalker situation.  It's just a tiny bit lowered, but there are some good points you've made.  Namely, that Ray is eccentric.  I think the show wants us to see Ray as this eccentric person who has poor social skills and a poor understanding of personal boundaries.  I'm not sure they are quite getting that across.  On the one hand, I'm really enjoying Ray as a new character.  On the other hand, a single line of dialogue would go a long way to letting us know that Ray is aware that his behavior can be problematic or a line from Felicity where she tells him that she understands is a bit weird but that he needs to respect her privacy.  

[CarBe]

I really enjoyed this episode. Taking 7 episodes to see SA without his shirt was almost worth the excruciatingly long wait. I think Oliver will recover due to the cold slowing his bleeding and someone finding him pretty quickly after the fall to the ledge. Look how many scars Ollie has. He has been stabbed/shot lots and always comes through. The man is T-O-U-G-H.

I could almost buy Felicity's lame forehead goodbye kiss ***IF*** it had been accompanied by a rib-cracking I-might-never-see-you-again embrace. But it wasn't. So, Oliver's goodbye to her was super lame. Roy gets a hug and she doesn't? BS. (Diggle should have gotten a hug, too.) And the 'I love you' was standard manipulative Oliver. Keeping her dangling. As always. That is why she didn't say it back. She is onto him. [ As a side note, I really don't understand why the writers are keeping the physical contact between Oliver and Felicity so G-rated other than to telegraph to us that Oliver loves her more in a platonic way than a truly romantic way but he doesn't realize it yet. Moreover, all the verbal ILYs are a sop to Olicity fans. That is my suspicion. I guess it also has the secondary purpose of keeping Felicity 'pure' for the fans, too.]

So tired of reading over and over what a stalker Ray is. He and Felicity are both hackers. Hackers on Arrow ping people's phones and break into computers on a regular basis and no one gets upset over it. Felicity hacked Ray's phone and computers and he took it in stride as revenge for misleading her as to who he really was in episode 1. The writers probably think it's cute someone on the show uses Felicity's tools against her. And it is, somewhat. Felicity isn't upset about the pinging so why are we? That being said, I usually really enjoy Brandon Routh as Ray but I didn't like him much tonight. Maybe because he and Felicity were more serious and they work better needling and riffing off each other. I really would prefer them to be romantically involved since they are perfect together on paper. Alas, he, too, has emotional damage to repair and it looks like she'll be his sidekick. Poor Felicity, doomed to be alone. I really want her to find a guy worthy of her. By the end of the series she better end up happily ever after with someone who treasures her. She deserves it.

Edited December 11, 2014 by CarBe

[bluebonnet]

So tired of reading over and over what a stalker Ray is. He and Felicity are both hackers. Hackers on Arrow ping people's phones and break into computers on a regular basis and no one gets upset over it. Felicity hacked Ray's phone and computers and he took it in stride as revenge for misleading her as to who he really was in episode 1. The writers probably think it's cute someone on the show uses Felicity's tools against her. And it is, somewhat. Felicity isn't upset about the pinging so why are we? That being said, I usually really enjoy Brandon Routh as Ray but I didn't like him much tonight. Maybe because he and Felicity were more serious and they work better needling and riffing off each other. I really would prefer them to be romantically involved since they are perfect together on paper. Alas, he, too, has emotional damage to repair and it looks like she'll be his sidekick. Poor Felicity, doomed to be alone. I really want her to find a guy worthy of her. By the end of the series she better end up happily ever after with someone who treasures her. She deserves it.

That's the big problem, though.  Felicity should be upset about it.  The fact that she isn't tells us that the writers are conveying that stalking isn't an problem.  

 

Team Arrow pinging people's cell phones isn't the same thing.  They are a group sanctioned by the local government to bring criminals to justice.  They ping as part of their work.  They aren't pinging in order to force a love interest into talking to them.  I mean, we don't look at Cupid and think she was super cute for tracking down the Arrow, not because she wanted to bring him to justice but because she wanted to kiss him.  Why should the writers make it cute when Ray is doing it?  It's also not the same when Felicity hacked his computers.  She wasn't tracking him down or invading his personal space.  She was doing to him what he had done to the company she worked for.  

[BkWurm1]

[ As a side note, I really don't understand why the writers are keeping the physical contact between Oliver and Felicity so G-rated other than to telegraph to us that Oliver loves her more in a platonic way than a truly romantic way but he doesn't realize it yet. Moreover, all the verbal ILYs are a sop to Olicity fans. That is my suspicion. I guess it also has the secondary purpose of keeping Felicity 'pure' for the fans, too.]

 

I think the G-rated stuff is partly to show that this love and relationship is different than the ones he's had before.   Since he's not willing to risk a real relationship, he's being respectful by not trying to sneak in a purely physical one.  I think the kiss from the premiere pretty firmly dispelled for me any question as to if he only has platonic feelings.  That kiss told me the only thing holding him back is how much it would hurt Felicity if he got close to her physically when he isn't willing to let himself accept her love and the place that would earn her in his life. 

 

That I love you as he trotted off without giving Felicity a chance to form a cohesive thought was something new from him.  It made me think that maybe he was starting to accept that his feelings for her didn't have to be a distraction.  He was no longer fighting them but going off to fight the Head of Demon was the wrong time for that major discussion. 

 

As for the notion that the more G rated interaction is intended to keep Felicity pure for fans, lol.  I can't speak for everyone but I'm kind of expecting TPTB to have Felicity jump into bed with Ray in some kind of mutual grief/rage/rebound thing so the notion of trying to keep her pure hasn't been telegraphed to me by anything that's happened on the show.     

[BkWurm1]

That's the big problem, though.  Felicity should be upset about it.  The fact that she isn't tells us that the writers are conveying that stalking isn't an problem

 

.

 

The writers don't see what Ray is doing as stalking and honestly, while his actions are something that a stalker might do, that does not automatically make him a stalker.

Edited December 11, 2014 by BkWurm1