Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[retrograde]

Yep. That's what I was saying upthread. It fits the formula of showcasing a different land in the first arc (Neverland, Arendelle) and showcasing Storybrooke in the second.

Ah, I must have missed your comment. My thinking was based on the fact that they're supposed to be bringing back some old characters (Red, Mulan, Whale, at least) and it seems weird they'd all be coming along. Plus they need to deal with the Zelena spawn, and that seems unlikely to happen elsewhere. They could split characters up between hell and Storybrooke a la 2A, I guess, but I think the writers know at this point that that doesn't work for extended periods of time. 

[YaddaYadda]

 

ETA: Interesting photos. Is that Emma getting into Arthur's magical box of treasures (I can't remember what he called it)? 

 

The reliquary.

 

I find it interesting that "no you can't use magic", (unless you have to save Robin of course) and she looks like she's just blasting away.

 

ETA - 

 

I know promos are supposed to be misleading, but the voice over says "to break a curse, the Dark One needs a hero."

 

Is this an informed "opinion" or are we just spewing stuff that sounds cute?

Edited October 20, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[chrisvee]

It seems as if once Excalibur is re-forged, we end up with two champions named on it -- one of the light and one of the dark. If the Purest/Bravest Knight kills the Dark One with the sword, the Dark One is vanquished forever. If the Dark One kills the Purest/Bravest Knught, the Dark One not only is no longer tethered to the dagger and under human control but also no longer feels any human connection or bond -- s/he transcends humanity to become entirely heartless.

So the Darkness is shifting the odds in its favor by both seducing Arthur away from the path of light with that sand -- and then by biding its time to select Gold who may be able to pull the sword out but won't be strong enough to defeat Emma. Emma may be planning to trick Darkness by letting Gold kill her.

Something goes wrong and Hook ends up pulling Excalibur from the stone perhaps during the break in??? Then Gold challenges Hook for Excalibur but loses of course.

I'm now expecting Hook to refuse to kill Dark Emma and Dark Emma still enacting her plan to let herself be killed by impaling herself on his sword (that sounded better in my head) then off goes Hook to Daddy in the Underworld to bring her back.

ETA I wonder if Arthur and Emma manage to reforge Excalibur in Camelot and Killian's name appears shocking everyone? Somebody put the sword back in the stone for some reason. Emma to protect Hook seems like a good bet.

Edited October 20, 2015 by chrisvee

[Pangea]

So the Darkness is shifting the odds in its favor by both seducing Arthur away from the path of light with that sand -- and then by biding it's time to select Gold who may be able to pull the sword out but won't be strong enough to defeat Emma. Emma may be planning to trick Darkness by letting Gold kill her.

Something goes wrong and Hook ends up pulling Excalibur from the stone perhaps during the break in??? Then Gold challenges Hook for Excalibur but loses of course.

I'm now expecting Hook to refuse to kill Dark Emma and Dark Emma still enacting her plan to let herself be killed by impaling herself on his sword (that sounded better in my head) then off goes Hook to Daddy in the Underworld to bring her back.

I've been thinking along these lines too. I think Emma is intending to destroy the Dark One. She knows there is no way Hook would kill the Dark One if it meant killing her. So she is trying to create an alternative Orphan King (to Killian, who is probably the intended one) by setting up Rumple to be able to pull the sword from the stone. Rumple would not hesitate to kill her. She's driving away anyone close to her who can interfere with her plan.

[Rumsy4]

New Sneak Peek with Henry and his little crush. Did Henry really go to Emma for help first, or did he ask Regina, and she suggested it as a diversion? 

[chrisvee]

The Darkness needs Dark Emma to kill Gold once he's pulled the sword from the stone and she's reunited the Dagger with Excalibur. Maybe Dark Emma is down with that plan or maybe she's pulling a long con.

But whatever their plans it appears that fate is going to mix this up by inserting Hook.

Then I agree with whoever said up thread that we're in one of those fairytale only exceptions where the fact that it's two lovers on Excalibur rather than sworn enemies which will cause the outcome to be something entirely unexpected (Dark One vanquished but the human host Is released rather than killed).

[sharky]

New Sneak Peek with Henry and his little crush. Did Henry really go to Emma for help first, or did he ask Regina, and she suggested it as a diversion? 

I might need a diversion after watching that scene. Sometimes, Jared can get the acting right and sometimes he gets it really wrong. I mean, I guess it would make sense that Henry feels more comfortable around Hook than a girl but still.

[Souris]

I'm now thinking that Dark Swan may kill Violet's horse. That would drive Henry away from her.

[mjgchick]

That poor kid needs direction.

[retrograde]

Yeah, I hope that there's a reason Henry didn't go to his other magic mum -- the one who isn't crazy evil right now (what an odd thing to be saying about Regina, but here we are) -- who could easily have performed a locator spell for the horse. 

[LizaD]

Merlin probably put the sword back in the stone and resealed it with some new rule. Emma seems to be fine with Merlin in Nimue's episode. She has her dagger and it looks like he's teaching her so what went wrong and why couldn't he do anything about the DO? He also said bad things would happen if she tries to remove Excalibur so I don't know if the 2 names on whole Excalibur is actually a good thing.

My guess is she broke some magic rule just like Merlin did back in the day and the price was Nimue tethered to the DO.

With him finally appearing next episode I hope he kicks the story into gear. It's been dragging.

[Curio]

So why was Emma forbidden from using her magic to talk to Merlin in the tree a couple episodes ago because it was "too dangerous" for her to be using her dark magic, but it's totally okay for Emma to use magic if it's a situation where Regina needs her magical assistance? Because first we got the whole Robin fiasco, and now the promo photos for the next episode show Emma using some hardcore magic for whatever plan she's doing with Regina. I don't get it.

[KAOS Agent]

That was why Henry went to get Emma, so I don't see why they'd pretend differently now. Emma has always been used and expected to fix everyone's problems with no one caring if it made her unhappy. Now it seems Henry is using Emma's care for him to distract her while others break into her house. This seems like a really bad idea because no one can really trust the Dark One even if it is with Henry, but also because using Emma in this way will only further isolate her when it all inevitably goes wrong. Let's destroy yet another of Emma's relationships. This episode sounds like a blast. Her brainwashed parents are working to screw her over in the past while her life continues to suck in the present. Good times.

[YaddaYadda]

The Darkness needs Dark Emma to kill Gold once he's pulled the sword from the stone and she's reunited the Dagger with Excalibur. Maybe Dark Emma is down with that plan or maybe she's pulling a long con.

 

I think Emma has her own plans for the sword that are different from the DO. Could also be completely wrong. Plus, she does nothing to disguise or hide the sword. She couldn't have not known that Hook wouldn't try and find out what she's hiding. She told him specifically that with her powers, she could hide anything from his prying eyes. 

 

I've been giving Gold some thought. With Emma driving the whole I wanna make you brave, I wanna make you the best hero ever, she might actually end up driving him over the edge, where he feels exactly like he felt (bullied and with no control) all those centuries ago. She might end up pushing too hard, and pushing him right over the edge, where he will form his own agenda to get the DO's powers back.

[scenicbyway]

Why do we think Henry is being used as a distraction to lure Emma out of her house?  He seems to genuinely want to find the horse so that Violet will go to the block party.  From the BTS photos, we know that Henry rides into the party on a horse (presumably Violets) and that she gives him his first kiss at the party.  I think the whole mission is successful.  Besides, it's not like the horse could actually leave town without becoming a tree anyway.

 

I think all the "heroes" will do when they find Excalibur is stare at it.  I also suspect they'll think about asking Arthur to come and pull it out.  It'll be fun to see him attempt it in a future episode.  I suspect we'll have Snow try it after him.  No one will actually think Hook will be the one to do it.

[YaddaYadda]

I also suspect they'll think about asking Arthur to come and pull it out.  It'll be fun to see him attempt it in a future episode.  I suspect we'll have Snow try it after him.  No one will actually think Hook will be the one to do it.

 

I don't know about that. 

 

Emma was blasted back by the sword. I'm thinking the only reason Emma is still alive is because she's the Dark One and basically immortal.

 

Arthur might go the way of Sir Kay if he goes near that thing.

[HoodlumSheep]

Guy Fauchon as Vortigan? And apparently according to imdb/tumblr posts (cause those are so trustworthy) he's possibly the original Dark One?

???

Well, if Nimue turns out not to be the DO, then my theory/wish of the original DO being the horned King still lives for now (Let me dream!)

*So google keeps redirecting me from Vortigan to Vortigern...

Edited October 20, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[LizaD]

I do remember a casting call for a servant who hates his employer. I thought it was about Arthur and his knights or something but maybe it's Merlin's servant. I don't know if he's the first DO though. Seems pretty lackluster for the first DO. And didn't A&E say that we'll see that all the DOs took on the DO for a good noble reason? Hating your boss doesn't sound like a noble reason to me.

 

Merlin got locked up in a tree by his servant and that's what Emma sees in the dreamcatcher? Damn that's weak.  I would've liked it better if Nimue trapped him in keeping with the original legend.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ like I said, it's from imdb, and that can be edited, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Rumsy4]

I do remember a casting call for a servant who hates his employer.

 

I assumed that was the Apprentice. The imdb page for the actor (Guy Fauchon) actually lists him as the "first dark one". I don't know how reliable the information is. I will be disappointed if Nimue is not the Original Dark One. But at least it will be a surprise, I guess. Not sure why I should care about some unknown guy becoming the First Dark One. Maybe he is Merlin's son. 

[KingOfHearts]

Are we sure the servant wasn't Grif?

[kili]

Hating your boss doesn't sound like a noble reason to me.

 

It may be if your boss is an idiot that keeps making dangerous objects and leaving them around for everybody to find. That's kind of like on MASH when they took out a perfectly healthy appendix out of a meglomaniac general to stop him from some crazy battle he had planned that was only going to result in mass casualties.

 

Sometimes, you just have to stuff an idiot in a tree...

 

And for his servant to be able to stuff Merlin into a tree, he probably was already the Dark One. Probably as the result of Merlin doing some stupid experiment on his servant.

 

After seeing the mind-games Merlin pulled as a tree on an orphaned child, I can only imagine what a nightmare he was to work for prior to that.

[HoodlumSheep]

I still can't figure out the tree thing; according to the timeline they drew out, Merlin would have been a tree when emma was young, so how'd he go visit her?

Is there going to be a plot twist where Merlin faked being trapped in a tree and he's just screwing with people?

I'll cross my fingers and hope that imdb is wrong and Nimue is the original DO.

[Rumsy4]

Are we sure the servant wasn't Grif?

 

Oh. Good point. That probably was Grif. 

 

I still can't figure out the tree thing; according to the timeline they drew out, Merlin would have been a tree when emma was young, so how'd he go visit her?

 

I don't see a problem here, tbh. Merlin wasn't really there in person at the movie theatre, given how fast he appeared and disappeared. It was like an astral projection a la Ingrid in S4A. He has also been able to communicate with his apprentice through smoke form, and through dreams with Arthur as well. Because "magic". :-p

Edited October 20, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

Yeah, Grif pretended to resent Arthur, so that might have been him.

[Shanna Marie]

I may be reading way too much into a photo, but one of the promo photos might back up the idea that the sword is somehow calling to Hook, maybe even that the others don't see that door. There's a shot in what appears to be Emma's house with Regina, Belle, and Robin in the background looking kind of baffled or confused, with Hook in the foreground with a look of intense concentration, like he's listening carefully to something. You could read it as him seeing the door and hearing the sword and them going "huh?"

 

On another note, last night I was at an event at the National Scouting Museum, and since I was there early, I toured part of the museum. They have an art gallery of art depicting scouting (lots of Norman Rockwell), and there was a painting from 1918 (not by Rockwell) that was done for a war bond advertisement that really made me do a double take. It showed a scout holding a sword that looked freakishly like the joined Excalibur we see in those spoiler pictures where Hook has it. It's not wavy (which is just silly for a sword), but the engraving on the blade is almost the same, and it had lettering on it, saying something like "Strength and Valor" only I don't remember what exactly because my brain was seeing "Killian Jones." It was even in the same font. I don't think this is a famous painting -- it probably wouldn't even be in a museum if it weren't part of a collection relating to scouting -- so I suspect that there's either some famous sword or image of a sword that's very iconic, and both the painting and the look of Excalibur on the show were inspired by that.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ i was thinking Hook was looking at a dreamcatcher on a table or something. We know Regina gets her hands on one at some point this episode, so I was thinking Hook saw one, had a funny feeling/deja vu about it and swiped it before he and the others left.

I suppose it could be either or.

*whispers* Shan Yu's sword was wavy...*

Wait a second...wavy sword...mulan returning...clearly 5b is going to be a Mulan, fairy tale China arc.

Edited October 20, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Solace247]

Since we're talking about 'wavy' swords, I thought I'd let you know that they do exist in history. Being a fan of the History channel's Forged in Fire program, I've now been introduced to the eccentric-looking Kalis sword and kris dagger of Southeast Asia. It was designed that way to leave a larger wound upon stabbing. Which is decidedly creepy. I'm sure someone on the show just thought it would look cool, maybe not so much when it becomes a GIGANTIC sword.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sure someone on the show just thought it would look cool, maybe not so much when it becomes a GIGANTIC sword.

The waviness added a touch of whimsy, or even twistedness, to the dagger. It made it memorable and distinguishable from other blades. However, I find it weird on Excalibur because it's only toward the tip. Adding the dagger makes it a gigantically long sword, imo. That's got to be awkward to fight with.

Edited October 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

That's got to be awkward to fight with.

 

Especially when you have a hook for a hand.

[Solace247]

Yeah, it pretty much looks like a two-hander.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't have a problem with the blade. It is on the long side, but it looks to be narrower and far lighter than David's sword. Also, it's magical, so I'm sure it's sturdier than it looks. I'm not really phased by the length of it though, because it's nothing compared to Sephiroth's sword (from the Final Fantasy video games).

So would Excalibur be considered a longsword? Besides the wavy tip, that is.

Edited October 20, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

So I've had a thought while going through BTS from episode 5x06.

 

There is one of Merlin, Hook, David, Belle, Merida, and Lancelot together at night. Got me wondering if these people aren't actually on to Arthur now, especially since Lancelot is there with Merida (did Arthur kidnap children too?). David has been sanded, so is he out from under the influence of that?

[patchwork]

Maybe David remembers the station has CCTV and as Arthur doesn't have Gold's powers he wont be able to alter the tape and he gets exposed for the squire's murder. 

[Rumsy4]

Daddy Hook wears leather pants

 

Oh yeah! So... is he a pirate then? 

 

Adam is very cheeky. He must have got some naughty comments. He followed that tweet with this one: "Eyes on Eduardo's costume, everyone. Eduardo's costume ;)"

 

hehe

[OnceUponAJen]

I was going to say they look more like something a court jester would wear? :) Not very piratey.

I could be wrong! :)

Eyes are on the costume, but....can you blame a girl?

Perhaps a gypsy? Ran away with the circus? I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but they are very distinctive-looking.

Edited October 21, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Souris]

Daddy Hook wears leather pants

 

I love Ye Olde Enchanted Forest zipper.

[PixiePaws1]

I love Ye Olde Enchanted Forest zipper.

LOL!!!

Maybe he covers said zipper with a shirt or jacket. ...wonder if Hook inherited his utter boredom with doing up all his shirt buttons. ...??

[LizaD]

So EK finally gave an interview that had some semi-spoilers in it, posted in media thread. Of note, he says Merlin has the big picture more than anyone. He's relatively selfless in that his actions are driven by not what he wants but what he knows needs to happen. He's there to make sure the future stays intact.

I knew it was something like this, once A&E said he wasn't the villain. I alo said that the one time he goes against the rules probably led to the DO's existence and him and Nimue paying the price. Also that Emma broke off from Merlin and went dark completely because she's repeating his mistake and choosing to go with her heart vs. what needs to happen. Since JM said she's driven by her love for Hook then I'm guessing she sees his death or Merlin tells her about it and she's trying to prevent it from happening or it did happen and she changed the past.

He also said Merlin and Arthur do have a special bond. That's surprising to me. I was set on Arthur having been bamboozled by some imposter.

Other thing of note, the kid Emma and Merlin scene was added in later. I'm like huh? Didn't A&E say that scene was going to set up the rest of the arc with the prophecy? How the hell wasn't it originally planned?

ETA: Crazy spec but what if Emma tethered Hook's soul to bottom Excalibur and that's why his name is on it. Now I don't know why she would want to remove it and all that pure hero pulls it out, snuff out the light stuff but could be just a misdirect.

Edited October 21, 2015 by LizaD

[Souris]

Another possibility is that Merlin NEEDED her to go full dark because it's necessary for the "fairytale impossibility" of Emma & Killian's names being on the rejoined Excalibur while also True Loves. So he may have told her something about Killian that would ensure she'd act in the way that he needed her to act, while leaving out some other important information. 

[PixiePaws1]

Another possibility is that Merlin NEEDED her to go full dark because it's necessary for the "fairytale impossibility" of Emma & Killian's names being on the rejoined Excalibur while also True Loves. So he may have told her something about Killian that would ensure she'd act in the way that he needed her to act, while leaving out some other important information.

I think you are on the money. I also think the way in which Emma took on the Darkness to save everyone also plays a part. I am sure she is trying to hero up Rumple to take Killian's place because either he dies playing his prophesised role or because he could never kill her.

I also toyed with the idea that the enchanted hook is used to switch hearts with Rumple somehow but couldn't make it work with the above.

However this plays out I'm sure Killian is replacing Emma in the Underworld and she goes after him.

[KAOS Agent]

But the future hasn't happened yet. Merlin should have no say in making sure things happen the way he thinks or prophesies it to be. That's being a puppetmaster and pulling strings he shouldn't be pulling. We've seen him totally screw up Arthur's life and he seemed just fine with his author screwing over Lily. This all needed to happen because he sees a certain future? That's not cool. I wonder if he needed Emma to go full dark so that she couldn't pull the sword in Camelot. Apparently, Emma getting repeatedly screwed over is necessary.

 

I'm still very anti any character being taken to the Underworld and needing to be rescued. Enough with the save x character stories. Besides, there needs to be major fallout from the Dark Swan arc and I don't see that happening if we are off on yet another mission to rescue someone. Plus, Zelena is still pregnant and you can't bring Roland or Baby Snowflake to the Underworld, so that limits who can go.

[PixiePaws1]

I'm still very anti any character being taken to the Underworld and needing to be rescued. Enough with the save x character stories. Besides, there needs to be major fallout from the Dark Swan arc and I don't see that happening if we are off on yet another mission to rescue someone..

I agree... I would love a whole episode with Emma going through therapy with each significant loved one being brought into Dr Hopper's office one at a time to help Emma heal....but there'll be pork in the trees before we get anything like that.

so let's whack someone in peril and send someone to save them 'cos that just never gets old (!!!)

[YaddaYadda]

He's relatively selfless in that his actions are driven by not what he wants but what he knows needs to happen. He's there to make sure the future stays intact.

 

Okay, I know he knows a hell of a lot more about his character and what's going on than we do.

 

But I take issue with this because Merlin went to Emma when she was a child, and told her not to take Excalibur out of the stone.

 

He went to Arthur as a kid and told him a prophecy.

 

If he's trying to preserve the future, then why is he trying to influence it so much? If he foresaw Emma pulling the sword and the consequences are terrible ones, then him going to her and warning her against it means that he's not trying to preserve the future, but trying to change it.

 

And since Emma, Arthur, and Hook seem to be the big puppets on strings in this little game, then what are the odds that he has also gone to Hook to tell him something too.

[Hookian]

I think you are on the money. I also think the way in which Emma took on the Darkness to save everyone also plays a part. I am sure she is trying to hero up Rumple to take Killian's place because either he dies playing his prophesised role or because he could never kill her.

I also toyed with the idea that the enchanted hook is used to switch hearts with Rumple somehow but couldn't make it work with the above.

However this plays out I'm sure Killian is replacing Emma in the Underworld and she goes after him.

 

Yep this has always been my theory about Hook taking Emma's place and being sent to the Underworld. There's a reason papa Hook is being seen in the winter finale. That's a big deal and is being used to set him up as a massive focus in 5B. Will he be the big bad or will he be the person whom aids them or will it be something completely different? Whatever may be the case it's very clear he's alive in present day and will have a big part in 5B.

 

S5 is shaping up to be just as CS AF that was foreshadowed in the final moments of the S4 finale.

 

And since Emma, Arthur, and Hook seem to be the big puppets on strings in this little game, then what are the odds that he has also gone to Hook to tell him something too.

 

About being the "orphaned king"?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Hookian

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm thinking Regina's going to be the first to get back her memories, based on that script tease. What I don't understand is why everyone is getting their memory back at different times. If someone remembered what happened in Camelot, couldn't that person just tell the others what happened? Unless one of the rules in place for the curse is that no one can talk of their time Camelot if said person remembers? Which ids why Emma can't talk of it, and makes Arthur look kind of sketchy, and Merida seems to remember somehow (so she's like the Mad Hatter, but now Emma has her heart).

Edited October 21, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

About being the "orphaned king"?

 

Probably something about Excalibur more like since this is what Merlin has gone to both Emma and Arthur about.

[mjgchick]

Maybe everyone is getting their memories at different times because it's what needs to be done? Maybe what Regina sees that caused Emma to go dark is why she's keeping it from everyone else? Hook's either going to be the last one or Snowing is and they are going to feel like utter shit.

[KingOfHearts]

We have better context now for the block party, thanks to the Sneak Peek with Henry mentioning it to Violet. I still think it's strange they're throwing a shindig while Emma is in peril.

[PixiePaws1]

The party seems like a slap in Emma's face but it may be part of the distraction while Killian & co break into the basement.

in the photos it looks like Snowing are asking Regina to hand them the Dagger. Regina looks hesitant at least. In what looks like the same setting Emma looks very upset.