S05.E07: Crossed

[Pete Martell]

I honestly can't remember Beth's mourning for a whole episode but if she had I wouldn't begrudge her since I think watching a father kneel while a madman slashes his throat and then decapitates him would be way more traumatic than would losing a boyfriend of a few weeks. But what irks me is, I'm sure, different than what irks other people and vice versa. Hey, I liked Andrea!

 

She had several scenes talking about Hershel in one episode. She had an entire episode with Daryl soon after which was about her trying to self-medicate because she couldn't deal with losing Hershel. This also took place over several days, the main difference being that unlike Sasha, she was oncamera.

 

I wouldn't begrudge her either, and yes, it's a bigger loss than Sasha's loss. I guess the idea of Sasha grieving offcamera for a few days and having a handful of scenes where she tries to deal with her loss making her weaker than Beth confused me, as did the suggestion that she'd had an unending amount of time shown dealing with her loss when we've barely seen her and Beth had a fairly extensive grieving process for any character not named Carol, Rick or Daryl.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

 

FWIW, I also liked Andrea.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[mightysparrow]

Can Sasha's grief be unending when it's lasted for a total of about 2-3 days?

 

I also don't see any indication they believe their grief is more important or valid than anyone else's.

 

Sasha's been closed off emotionally since the ZA, and possibly long before the ZA. She gave Bob a chance, a guy who constantly tried to tell her to be more trusting of life. Almost as soon as she does, he's bitten, he's tortured by cannibals, and she finds him dumped outside of a supposed safe haven. She then spends an extended period of time watching him die. 

 

She wasn't burdening anyone in the group with her grief. She was keeping to herself for most of the episode. She was trying to go back to what she used to be, and she couldn't really do it. So she tries to be trusting, and it turns out to be a stupid mistake. And I'm sure she realizes it's a stupid mistake. That's not about her feeling that her grieving is superior or all-important - it's just a consequence of her opening herself up. I have lost track of how many emotional breakdowns Daryl's had over the last season, breakdowns that have repeatedly led to questionable judgment calls that impact the people in his group. He technically doesn't have any reason to feel this way, but he does, because he also trusted and opened himself up to life, and he feels the hurt.

 

As for Tyreese, I don't believe he's using Karen's murder as an excuse for who he is. He was this way before he ever met Karen. He was hesitant about killing at Woodbury. He was quiet and sensitive. Karen's murder has exacerbated some of this, as did what happened to Lizzie and Mika, but it was already there. 

 

I think the idea of comparing grieving just drags down all the characters. I remember the fans who insisted in season 2 that Carol was a bad mother because she didn't "seem" as upset about Sophia's death as Daryl was. Yet we've repeatedly seen just how much Sophia's death hurt her and changed her.

 

Really good comment.  I don't think either Sasha or Tyreese are emotionally weak because they're grieving the loss of people they loved.  And is love measured by time?  Is Michonne's grief less than Carol's because Peanut was younger than Sophia?  Sasha hacked one of the Termites to death the day Bob died and is an active member of the rescue team.  She may have screwed up with CopBob but it wasn't because of her grief over Bob.  Like @Pete Martell says Tyreese has never liked killing and Carol isn't the only one carrying a burden from the Grove, even though she's the only one who gets consideration for it, as usual.

 

One of the things that has really irked me is that Michonne isn't given any of the sympathy that Carol is given even though she too, is a mother who lost a child.  Perhaps it's because Michonne doesn't play the victim like Carol does, but Michonne has been through a huge loss too and has managed to keep her shit locked down.  

 

Another thing that has bugged me about this 'all Carol all the time' season is that the important events that happened in season 4b with Michonne, Carl, Rick and Daryl have been all but forgotten.  Michonne's confession to Carl about Andre and then his later confession about feeling like a monster or the time Daryl spent with Joe and the Merletones or Carl's sexual assault has been basically forgotten.  It's such a waste.

 

Michonne does do that head thing when she's tuning into somebody.  I wouldn't mind Michonne getting her fuck on or even if she fucked Father Gabriel (he's cute) but brother's going to have to earn it and he hasn't yet.  He's going to have to kill a whole football stadium worth of walkers with his bare hands to make up for his sniveling so far.

Edited November 28, 2014 by mightysparrow

[Nashville]

 Loved both of Hershel's girls acting as caretakers this episode.  I think he'd be proud.  If Beth survives, hopefully she can become their medical person. 

Only if she stops following the writers' directions on medicine. Most of their medical treatment protocols are kinda incompatible with life.

What exactly is Dawn doing to control the female cop?

  

Keeping the male cops off her?

He's stated that his god will protect him, which makes me wonder why he spends all his time being scared shitless. Faith, Father PeePants!

 

 

I just can't figure out where FPP thinks he going, with no food, no water, no weapons and for sure not a whisper of fortitude.

  

He probably figures God will provide him a taller rock.

Not that he could climb it.

  

Let us face the fact that of all our main characters, Michonne is probably the most horny. She is a healthy female in her mid thirties who probably has not had sex since she walker petted her boyfriend and his friend. So we are looking at about two years. A healthy woman at her sexual peek who has been in near death situations with a group of comrades for months now. Her testosterone levels must be sky high for a female. Now anyone who has handled a katana knows that the leather grip of the handle with its ridges and shape could satisfy to a point, but damn some women need to be held. Unfortunately some men don't like to fool around with a brother in arms, especially a top comrade. Throw in a southern pastor and you have the making of some good satisfying sinful sex. Because southern pastors are good like that, with all the hearing of confessions, the counseling and the comforting of women and all that summer heat. At this point I am sure Michonne needs to bare her soul to someone who will bang the hell out her as if she is being both forgiven and punished for sins. Enter FPP

Are you kidding? Put that way, it sounds more like you're setting Michonne up to break in Carl. Under the circumstances you describe, HatBoy is the only one she MIGHT not put in a grave with a heart attack.

[JBody]

Yes. I would have liked them to follow up on all that as well. But this show has more dropped threads than a broken loom. I'm still watching because I haven't given up hope they may someday revisit these characters and remember what we the audience have learned about them.

My comment was directed at mightysparrow's post (laugh out loud)

[Pete Martell]

Are you kidding?

 

At least if anyone ever has to answer any prompts for a Michonne/katana kink meme, we have some starter ideas.

[mightysparrow]

Yes. I would have liked them to follow up on all that as well. But this show has more dropped threads than a broken loom. I'm still watching because I haven't given up hope they may someday revisit these characters and remember what we the audience have learned about them.

My comment was directed at mightysparrow's post (laugh out loud)

 

I'm still trying to recover from reading your comment!

[Kadlin Mormont]

I'm still wondering what was in Bob's box?  Maybe it was Carol's vibrator!

 

Also I think with fandom as long as your having fun your fine. As long as your not stalking anyone specific or are saying peoples pets due to them being a bethyl shipper. (No thats not an exageration sadly it has actually happened). Fandom is only really dangerous when you actually take it seriously IMO.

 

Oh, I know! It gets ugly both ways.  I've seen members on other boards threatened, people who provide spoilers being badmouthed and threatened and hate mail and vicious letters and tweets sent to Yvette Nicole Brown, Melissa McBride and others in the cast and crew and celebs who talk about the show because they aren't  Bethyl shippers or they said something that was non-Bethyl-shippy or had the misfortune to be cast as Carol.  They're happy to use stalkers when the information they get goes their way but if it's something they don't want to hear they attack the source and those who help the source.   Melissa McBride (God bless her gentle soul) even talked about being harassed in an interview.  Good grief!  They're just imaginary characters-they don't exist!

Edited November 28, 2014 by Kadlin Mormont

[GreyBunny]

I'm still wondering what was in Bob's box?  Maybe it was Carol's vibrator!

 

Rick's Razor?

Daryl's shampoo?

Maggie's memory of her sister?

Glenn's sense of humor?

Father Pee-Pants's nuts?

[mightysparrow]

I'm still wondering what was in Bob's box?  Maybe it was Carol's vibrator!

 

 

Oh, I know! It gets ugly both ways.  I've seen members on other boards threatened, people who provide spoilers being badmouthed and threatened and hate mail and vicious letters and tweets sent to Yvette Nicole Brown, Melissa McBride and others in the cast and crew and celebs who talk about the show because they aren't  Bethyl shippers or they said something that was non-Bethyl-shippy or had the misfortune to be cast as Carol.  They're happy to use stalkers when the information they get goes their way but if it's something they don't want to hear they attack the source and those who help the source.   Melissa McBride (God bless her gentle soul) even talked about being harassed in an interview.  Good grief!  They're just imaginary characters-they don't exist!

 

Long before the Bethyl shippers were making life miserable for TWD viewers, Caryl fans were wreaking havoc.  Ask Lauren Holden about the death threats she got when it looked like she and Norman were more than friends. When Danai joined the show and Norman couldn't keep his hands off her, she received racist messages. I've always said that Bethyl fans were so horrible because they followed in the footsteps of Caryl fans.  Both fandoms have been awful and I pray that BOTH ships are sunk, once and for all, by the end of this season.

Edited November 28, 2014 by mightysparrow

[GreyBunny]

I hope Daryl is gay and I'm shipping him with the next good-looking non-heterosexual guy who comes along.  In the meantime I think he's having a passionate affair with his crossbow.

 

Only if she stops following the writers' directions on medicine. Most of their medical treatment protocols are kinda incompatible with life.)

 

They need to get a real medical consultant, maybe someone other than whatever quack they have on staff now.

[Pete Martell]

Another thing that has bugged me about this 'all Carol all the time' season is that the important events that happened in season 4b with Michonne, Carl, Rick and Daryl have been all but forgotten.  Michonne's confession to Carl about Andre and then his later confession about feeling like a monster or the time Daryl spent with Joe and the Merletones or Carl's sexual assault has been basically forgotten.  It's such a waste.

 

Michonne does do that head thing when she's tuning into somebody.  I wouldn't mind Michonne getting her fuck on or even if she fucked Father Gabriel (he's cute) but brother's going to have to earn it and he hasn't yet.  He's going to have to kill a whole football stadium worth of walkers with his bare hands to make up for his sniveling so far.

 

I feel like in the show's mind, that's just material they've put away, and will come back to later in the season (I'm not sure I trust them to do right by Michonne, but I do think they'll go back to Carl's story) A part of me wonders if they resolved the stories last season because they knew they wouldn't have a lot of time this season, at least not early on. I do hope they don't think that just because we know Michonne's past, there's nothing left to go.

 

If they wrote an actual relationship for Michonne and Gabriel down the line, I'd be OK with it, but he'd really have to mature. At the moment I don't think she'd give him a second glance.

[GreyBunny]

I thought she was trying to get him to calm down and give him some information that could help him be helpful to them and for his own survival.  I can't imagine them in a relationship. 

[Pestilentia]

 

I agree with you about Michonne being the alpha female.  Which is why I don't understand why she would give Father Gabriel the time of day.  She might chat with him on the porch because he spoke to her first but to actually seek him out and ask if he wanted to chat?  That doesn't make any damn sense at all.  If Michonne has a crush on the padre, I'm going to be very unhappy.

I think she was just checking in with him and his mental state much as she would with a child. She was left with him (and Judith) and probably wanted to find out if he was dangerously close to losing his shit or just his merely petrified normal self.

 

I see no way in hell they would ever pair these two up.

May as well ship Eugene and Daryl- it's that preposterous to me.

[GreyBunny]

Eugene and Daryl can bond over their misguided hairstyle choices.  Michonne and Pee-Pants can bond over...um...uh...*scratches head*...nope.

[kikismom]

I know' a lot of people can't see it happening. I couldn't have...back in the days when I used logic and evidence to understand character motivations.

But then Crusty Mean Old You Kids Get Offa My Lawn Herschel became Santa Herschel, and I Can't Wait To Cook In A Real Kitchen Again--Goody! Carol became Bourne Identity Carol and Useless Fainting Ditz Beth became Useful Ditz Beth and Caustic Redneck Daryl became Care Bear Redneck Daryl,etc etc.

I may be drunk, but IMO the writers are gearing up another redemption arc. I can almost hear the salivating in the writer's room over the jr.high school level symbolism of it all,

Yeah yeah he sinned and was in the crucifixion pose in the cess-basement and now he has nail wound in his feet and then he'll rise again and it shows you can come back from this, come back from feeding your friends to thewolves or come back from tetanus or come back from adult incontinence or whatever---it's SYMBOLIC!

Michonne will become his Beatrice, leading him out of Purgatory, the love and teaching of a good woman---hey, look what that did for Bob!

I'm just afraid TPTB have a hard-on for redemptive arcs, followed by killing the person.

I once said Glenn wasn't becoming Herschel, he was becoming Dale. Now I'm afraid that it is Michonne that will be turned into the new Herschel.

Edited November 28, 2014 by kikismom

[paigow]

They need to get a real medical consultant, maybe someone other than whatever quack they have on staff now.

The writing staff for House M.D. had access to a panel of medical experts that reviewed scripts for blatant flaws. At least some of them must be available for TWD consultations.

[Pete Martell]

I know' a lot of people can't see it happening. I couldn't have...back in the days when I used logic and evidence to understand character motivations.

But then Crusty Mean Old You Kids Get Offa My Lawn Herschel became Santa Herschel, and I Can't Wait To Cook In A Real Kitchen Again--Goody! Carol became Bourne Identity Carol and Useless Fainting Ditz Beth became Useful Ditz Beth and Caustic Redneck Daryl became Care Bear Redneck Daryl,etc etc.

 

To me, most of this isn't illogical, it's just evolving characterization. Sloppy at times, but believable. People change. Beth was never as useless as some said (if she was she wouldn't have been given a baby to take care of for extended periods of time), Hershel's better side emerged after bonding with the group (if he'd ever been that bad in the first place he never would have let them stay at the farm), Carol hardened after losing Sophia, Daryl got in touch with his emotions thanks to the group and Carol and Rick. I think the show overdoes it at times (I don't really believe Carol would have killed Karen and David), admittedly.

 

To me, insane characterization is something like Lori berating Rick for killing Shane when she'd literally had scenes where she told Rick that Shane had to be taken care of. That's why I don't have any nostalgia for the good old days of characterization.

 

Michonne will become his Beatrice, leading him out of Purgatory, the love and teaching of a good woman---hey, look what that did for Bob!

 

If anything, I'd say Bob was the one who changed Sasha. Bob was mostly changed by being with a supportive group for a longer period of time than usual - his bond with Sasha was just part of that. 

 

I do worry at times that Michonne will just become someone who gives wise words, but I don't think she's going to be this cardboard cutout who helps Gabriel realize his true manhood. I don't think the show just sees her as somebody's woman. She's been on the show for two and a half seasons. They had plenty of time to characterize her that way if they wanted to do so. I think if she and Gabriel ever do get together it will be because he sorts out a lot of his problems on his own terms, not because she's there to fix him. The show generally says people can only fix themselves.

 

 

I'm just afraid TPTB have a hard-on for redemptive arcs, followed by killing the person.

 

Other than Merle, who sort of got a redemptive arc, I can't remember that many which ended in death. Bob was never a bad person. He was at most a drunken loner. His need for booze put them in jeopardy a few times, but he wasn't an antagonist. He wasn't redeemed as much as he just opened up to life.

 

Lori and Andrea got the most blatant redeemed-by-death exits, but that was more because the show had horribly botched their characters and were trying to make up for it, more than them actually being bad people.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

dp sorry

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[punchbuggyblue]

The episode ended and then I thought, wait...what?  what happened?   nothing.  nothing happened.  :(

Edited November 28, 2014 by punchbuggyblue

[editorgrrl]

The episode ended and then I thought, wait...what? what happened? nothing. nothing happened. :(

I think it was getting everyone into position for the mid-season finale: Michone, Carl & Judith vs. Fr. Gabriel; Tyreese & Sasha vs. Bob Lamson; Rick, Daryl, Beth & Carol vs. the Grady bunch; the short bus vs. the herd.

[kikismom]

 But this show has more dropped threads than a broken loom.

Or "dropped more threads than Rosita Espinoza".

 

To me, most of this isn't illogical, it's just evolving characterization. Sloppy at times, but believable. People change. Beth was never as useless as some said (if she was she wouldn't have been given a baby to take care of for extended periods of time), Hershel's better side emerged after bonding with the group (if he'd ever been that bad in the first place he never would have let them stay at the farm), Carol hardened after losing Sophia, Daryl got in touch with his emotions thanks to the group and Carol and Rick. I think the show overdoes it at times (I don't really believe Carol would have killed Karen and David), admittedly.

 

To me, insane characterization is something like Lori berating Rick for killing Shane when she'd literally had scenes where she told Rick that Shane had to be taken care of. That's why I don't have any nostalgia for the good old days of characterization.

 

 

If anything, I'd say Bob was the one who changed Sasha. Bob was mostly changed by being with a supportive group for a longer period of time than usual - his bond with Sasha was just part of that. 

 

I do worry at times that Michonne will just become someone who gives wise words, but I don't think she's going to be this cardboard cutout who helps Gabriel realize his true manhood. I don't think the show just sees her as somebody's woman. She's been on the show for two and a half seasons. They had plenty of time to characterize her that way if they wanted to do so. I think if she and Gabriel ever do get together it will be because he sorts out a lot of his problems on his own terms, not because she's there to fix him. The show generally says people can only fix themselves.

 

 

Other than Merle, who sort of got a redemptive arc, I can't remember that many which ended in death. Bob was never a bad person. He was at most a drunken loner. His need for booze put them in jeopardy a few times, but he wasn't an antagonist. He wasn't redeemed as much as he just opened up to life.

 

Lori and Andrea got the most blatant redeemed-by-death exits, but that was more because the show had horribly botched their characters and were trying to make up for it, more than them actually being bad people.

I meant more of the illogical timing of that likelihood; plot driven rather than organic to the character.

Scott Wilson (I know I've mentioned this before already sorry) said when he saw Herschel becoming pro-active he said "Uh-oh." That's why people have predicted Carol's death long before she got hit by the car.

TPTB don't really want the character to grow; they decide that a character must die for a big shocker, usually at MSF or final episode. Then they work backwards from that when writing the scripts for the season---i.e., they want a death, viewers must be made to care more for the person so the death is a Big Episode.

Lori was around the group for some time but became St. Lori when it was important to make you cry, Herschel was nicer but became Dr. Albert Schweitzer pre-death, etc.

Carl, living in this situation should be likely to just plain get dead any day. But the viewers know he won't because he hasn't had much screen time lately! That's a hell of a way to drain a lot of possible suspense from this story.

If the show would let people get to become better people, and just live like they were, or if bad people could just stay bad and die bad, or if a character could just suddenly get shot or killed somehow in a random way without 3 weeks of leading-up sanctification then I could see predicting by what makes sense for a character to do.

But as it stands, I'll stick to predicting based on what the people in the production office want , not the people in the story.

[Pete Martell]

I meant more of the illogical timing of that likelihood; plot driven rather than organic to the character.

Scott Wilson (I know I've mentioned this before already sorry) said when he saw Herschel becoming pro-active he said "Uh-oh." That's why people have predicted Carol's death long before she got hit by the car.

TPTB don't really want the character to grow; they decide that a character must die for a big shocker, usually at MSF or final episode. Then they work backwards from that when writing the scripts for the season---i.e., they want a death, viewers must be made to care more for the person so the death is a Big Episode.

Lori was around the group for some time but became St. Lori when it was important to make you cry, Herschel was nicer but became Dr. Albert Schweitzer pre-death, etc.

Carl, living in this situation should be likely to just plain get dead any day. But the viewers know he won't because he hasn't had much screen time lately! That's a hell of a way to drain a lot of possible suspense from this story.

If the show would let people get to become better people, and just live like they were, or if bad people could just stay bad and die bad, or if a character could just suddenly get shot or killed somehow in a random way without 3 weeks of leading-up sanctification then I could see predicting by what makes sense for a character to do.

But as it stands, I'll stick to predicting based on what the people in the production office want , not the people in the story.

 

I see what you're saying, but I think that's more about airtime than about characterization. Hershel became a much more sympathetic character from the season 3 premiere. He may have become more prominent toward the end, but he'd been that man for a season and a half. 

 

I feel like they've done this, to varying degrees of success. The Governor stayed a bad man, even after two episodes of him trying to change. Daryl has become a saint, and he's not going anywhere. They've done shock value deaths for characters like Axel and Oscar. Shock value deaths are what make me feel like it's all production gimmicks more than anything else, because they create these characters just to kill them, then expect us to care.

 

It's one of those situations where the show's not going to be able to win either way, because on a show where most characters die, anything can lead up to their death. Last season, some fans swore that Carol was being pushed out of the show, that they wanted viewers to see Carol as deserving death and that her story had to end in her death. This season, some fans have said that Carol having a redemption story and having more airtime means that she's going to die, the show want us to be prepared when she dies. 

 

In a way, it's a lazy writing choice to develop characters just to kill them off, but I'd rather have the development than just have them die. I feel like the show has spent more time trying to develop most of the characters in the last few seasons, although that unfortunately leads to some people being marginalized (Maggie, and Michonne and Carl this season).

[RedheadZombie]

Really good comment.  I don't think either Sasha or Tyreese are emotionally weak because they're grieving the loss of people they loved.  And is love measured by time?  Is Michonne's grief less than Carol's because Peanut was younger than Sophia?  Sasha hacked one of the Termites to death the day Bob died and is an active member of the rescue team.  She may have screwed up with CopBob but it wasn't because of her grief over Bob.  Like @Pete Martell says Tyreese has never liked killing and Carol isn't the only one carrying a burden from the Grove, even though she's the only one who gets consideration for it, as usual.

 

Another thing that has bugged me about this 'all Carol all the time' season is that the important events that happened in season 4b with Michonne, Carl, Rick and Daryl have been all but forgotten.  Michonne's confession to Carl about Andre and then his later confession about feeling like a monster or the time Daryl spent with Joe and the Merletones or Carl's sexual assault has been basically forgotten.  It's such a waste.

 

@mightysparrow, I agree with most of your first paragraph - up to the trashing Carol part. And I do think Sasha screwed up with the cop because of Bob - why else was he named "Bob"?  Leaving a plot "all but forgotten" is extremely common on TWD, and certainly not reserved for Carol - just ask Maggie about her sister.  I don't see Carol as the only one who gets consideration or sympathy, and I don't think there's anyone who has had more pity parties than Daryl.  You've admitted many times that you hate Carol, and I have no interest in convincing you otherwise.  I think the writers are slowly making Carol into what Daryl is - a Mary Sue.  That has irritated me about the Daryl character at times, but I'm more patient with the Carol character because we aren't supposed to find her perfect (unlike Daryl Sue).

 

One of the things that has really irked me is that Michonne isn't given any of the sympathy that Carol is given even though she too, is a mother who lost a child.  Perhaps it's because Michonne doesn't play the victim like Carol does, but Michonne has been through a huge loss too and has managed to keep her shit locked down.

 

I don't think this is a fair comparison - at all.  The audience knew Sophia, worried about her safety, and watched in horror (along with Carol) as she came shuffling out of that barn and was then killed.  The audience saw Andre for about a minute, did not experience his death or Michonne's immediate reaction to it, and has heard of him rarely.  It would be almost impossible (for me) to be as emotionally invested in Michonne's loss as Carol's, simply because I didn't actually witness any of it. That's not to say that I don't feel compassion for her, or believe the show has ignored Michonne's pain.  We know she punished Mike and his friend by making them pets.  We saw her emotional reaction to Judith, and we saw her sharing Andre with Carl.  She doesn't always keep her "shit locked down".  She lost it for a while after the prison fell, and who knows where she would be right now (emotionally) if she hadn't met up with Rick and Carl.

 

Unlike many, I've always liked Michonne.  But, her first season, she was a virtual machine.  She was monosyllabic, glared at everyone, never seemed to share pertinent information, and only liked one person - Andrea.  She was simply a person who did not inspire sympathy.  I think Carol is in transition, just as Michonne was when we first me her.  The thing is, Michonne had a head start.  Michonne was an empowered, educated, and prosperous woman before her loss.  Carol did not play a victim, she was a victim.  She was completely beaten down by the time she lost her child.  It would be unrealistic to think she could move on from her loss as "easily" as Michonne did.  And where would Michonne be right now if she lost a child she was responsible for after the prison fell, or had to put down a child she cared about? Interestingly, both Michonne and Carol were forced out on their own - and did very well at staying alive.  I hate seeing these two characters pitted against each other, almost as much as I hate Carol versus Beth.   Why can't we compare the vast amount of sympathy Rick receives versus your perceived lack of sympathy with Michonne?

 

Michonne does do that head thing when she's tuning into somebody.  I wouldn't mind Michonne getting her fuck on or even if she fucked Father Gabriel (he's cute) but brother's going to have to earn it and he hasn't yet.  He's going to have to kill a whole football stadium worth of walkers with his bare hands to make up for his sniveling so far.

 

 

The thought of those two together is stomach-turning.  He's such a prissy, pious, loser (in my mind).  I can't imagine that Michonne respects him, and I find her reaching out to him very untrue to her character.  If she must be with a black man, how about Morgan?  Although I'm hoping Carol will stay alive and do some hooking up with Morgan.

 

Boy, it sounds like I disagree with you on almost every point.  I don't usually.  I tend to agree with almost all your posts - the ones excluding Carol, of course.

[mandolin]

The writing staff for House M.D. had access to a panel of medical experts that reviewed scripts for blatant flaws. At least some of them must be available for TWD consultations.

But then everyone would have lupus.

[RedheadZombie]

I meant more of the illogical timing of that likelihood; plot driven rather than organic to the character.

Scott Wilson (I know I've mentioned this before already sorry) said when he saw Herschel becoming pro-active he said "Uh-oh." That's why people have predicted Carol's death long before she got hit by the car.

TPTB don't really want the character to grow; they decide that a character must die for a big shocker, usually at MSF or final episode. Then they work backwards from that when writing the scripts for the season---i.e., they want a death, viewers must be made to care more for the person so the death is a Big Episode.

 

I've noticed in the last few seasons that they're terrible at telegraphing deaths.  I thought Axel was a pervert, then he was suddenly telling Carol his life story - thirty seconds before he died.  T-Dog hadn't had a line in forever, then he becomes the representative of prisoner rights and humanity - only to die that day.  Rick rejected Lori the whole season, then he gives her a loving smile - dead like five minutes later.  It is so obvious.  I read a spoiler for the first time, and it was the episode that T-Dog and Lori died.  I didn't believe the spoiler, it was just too brutal.  The minute T-Dog became talkative and Rick smiled, I knew they were history.  Now there are times where it seems they're telegraphing - Glenn taking the picture of Maggie sleeping - and they're not.  I haven't found a death shocking since Shane.  Even Hershel's death was a give away in the flu episode, followed by the serene smile he gave Rick right before decapitation.

 

And I always find this show plot driven rather than character driven.  Almost every episode we're posting comments about Rick would never do that, etc.  Just like the decision this last episode as to who stayed and who went - I believe it had nothing to do with anything except setting up a character death.  I believe Carl would have argued to go with.  I don't think Daryl would have backed Tyreese up.  I don't think Michonne would have willingly stayed behind.  Sasha was edgy and I don't think they would have wanted her to go, etc.  That, more than anything, makes me fear for Tyreese and/or Sasha.

[mightysparrow]

@mightysparrow, I agree with most of your first paragraph - up to the trashing Carol part. And I do think Sasha screwed up with the cop because of Bob - why else was he named "Bob"?  Leaving a plot "all but forgotten" is extremely common on TWD, and certainly not reserved for Carol - just ask Maggie about her sister.  I don't see Carol as the only one who gets consideration or sympathy, and I don't think there's anyone who has had more pity parties than Daryl.  You've admitted many times that you hate Carol, and I have no interest in convincing you otherwise.  I think the writers are slowly making Carol into what Daryl is - a Mary Sue.  That has irritated me about the Daryl character at times, but I'm more patient with the Carol character because we aren't supposed to find her perfect (unlike Daryl Sue).

 

 

I don't think this is a fair comparison - at all.  The audience knew Sophia, worried about her safety, and watched in horror (along with Carol) as she came shuffling out of that barn and was then killed.  The audience saw Andre for about a minute, did not experience his death or Michonne's immediate reaction to it, and has heard of him rarely.  It would be almost impossible (for me) to be as emotionally invested in Michonne's loss as Carol's, simply because I didn't actually witness any of it. That's not to say that I don't feel compassion for her, or believe the show has ignored Michonne's pain.  We know she punished Mike and his friend by making them pets.  We saw her emotional reaction to Judith, and we saw her sharing Andre with Carl.  She doesn't always keep her "shit locked down".  She lost it for a while after the prison fell, and who knows where she would be right now (emotionally) if she hadn't met up with Rick and Carl.

 

Unlike many, I've always liked Michonne.  But, her first season, she was a virtual machine.  She was monosyllabic, glared at everyone, never seemed to share pertinent information, and only liked one person - Andrea.  She was simply a person who did not inspire sympathy.  I think Carol is in transition, just as Michonne was when we first me her.  The thing is, Michonne had a head start.  Michonne was an empowered, educated, and prosperous woman before her loss.  Carol did not play a victim, she was a victim.  She was completely beaten down by the time she lost her child.  It would be unrealistic to think she could move on from her loss as "easily" as Michonne did.  And where would Michonne be right now if she lost a child she was responsible for after the prison fell, or had to put down a child she cared about? Interestingly, both Michonne and Carol were forced out on their own - and did very well at staying alive.  I hate seeing these two characters pitted against each other, almost as much as I hate Carol versus Beth.   Why can't we compare the vast amount of sympathy Rick receives versus your perceived lack of sympathy with Michonne?

 

 

The thought of those two together is stomach-turning.  He's such a prissy, pious, loser (in my mind).  I can't imagine that Michonne respects him, and I find her reaching out to him very untrue to her character.  If she must be with a black man, how about Morgan?  Although I'm hoping Carol will stay alive and do some hooking up with Morgan.

 

Boy, it sounds like I disagree with you on almost every point.  I don't usually.  I tend to agree with almost all your posts - the ones excluding Carol, of course.

 

There's a lot of stuff in your comment but the one thing that struck me was your description of Michonne as a 'machine' when she first joined the show.  That's interesting considering that she cared for Andrea for months when she was sick.  She brought baby formula to the prison and helped rescue Maggie and Glenn.  Machines don't usually do that.  Michonne didn't run around wearing her heart on her sleeve or telling everybody about how hard her life had been (like you know who), but she was hardly a machine.  It seems a lot of people didn't give Michonne the same benefit of the doubt they gave people who were much less chatty than Michonne.  Daryl wasn't exactly effusive but people tripped over themselves to create scenarios where he was the wounded, misunderstood hero.  It might be because Daryl is a good looking man or it might be something else who knows. 

 

Carol's KILLED people and if you go by the way some of her fans tell it, she did Karen and David a favor when she murdered them and dragged their bodies outside and set then on fire like trash.  Michonne hasn't done anything anywhere near that cold blooded and horrible yet a lot of people act like she's got to go around baking cookies and breast feeding Judith to win their approval; approval they willingly give to a cold blooded killer.

 

I've never been quiet about my dislike for Carol or Beth for that matter.  I don't like weak, whiny women.  Blowing up Terminus didn't make Carol strong or a 'badass'.  She's been holding a moving pity party for herself since she's reunited with the rest of the group.  She practically has 'ask me about the Grove' tattooed on her forehead.

 

Anyway, it doesn't really bother me if folks don't like Michonne; more for me.  You're more than welcome to my share of Carol but it would be nice if I wasn't treated like I'd just strangled a kitten every time I dare say something critical about Queen Carol.  I think agreeing to disagree is always best.

[Pete Martell]

And I always find this show plot driven rather than character driven.  Almost every episode we're posting comments about Rick would never do that, etc.  Just like the decision this last episode as to who stayed and who went - I believe it had nothing to do with anything except setting up a character death.  I believe Carl would have argued to go with.  I don't think Daryl would have backed Tyreese up.  I don't think Michonne would have willingly stayed behind.  Sasha was edgy and I don't think they would have wanted her to go, etc.  That, more than anything, makes me fear for Tyreese and/or Sasha.

 

i tend to think it's a somewhat uneasy mix of both. For instance, I thought it was totally in character for Glenn to ask Rick to let the screaming person out of the storage unit. Yet I didn't think it was in character for the group to ask Rick not to go back and kill what was left of Terminus. I think the show generally gets individual characterizations right, but struggles with making them act in a way that is not plot-driven.

[RedheadZombie]

@mightysparrow, I do feel an irresistible need to defend Carol.  But I always feel defensive of characters who are highly criticized - that includes Michonne in her first season, Andrea, Lori, and Tyreese, and at times, Maggie, Glenn, and Carl.  Like I said prior, I actually agree with you most of the time.  Just not on Carol.  Just like some may agree with me on Carol, but not Daryl.  I think that's the best part about coming here.  How boring would it be to be surrounded by people with the same opinion?  I'm sad if I made you feel like a kitten strangler.  I know I detest being made to feel like I'm an unattractive middle-aged woman who's jealous of fresh ovaries.

[paigow]

But then everyone would have lupus.

Cameron: Some guy walked into the ER last night - without any vital signs!

Chase: WTF?

Cameron: Cuddy said not to treat him without proof of insurance

[Raven1707]

I've nearly completed my Maggie's Dialogue project -- not an easy task, since only Episodes 504-507 are currently available at AMCTV.com or On Demand -- and Maggie does not appear in 504 (Slabtown) or 506 (Consumed).

 

The good news: I've transcribed all of her dialogue from 505 (Self Help) and 507 (Crossed), plus made LOTS of notes!

 

Maggie's dialogue from 501 (No Sanctuary) and 503 (Four Walls and a Roof) is in pretty good shape, but I'd like to double-check it before posting it. She didn't say much in 502 (Strangers), but that's the episode I'm the least certain about.

 

By the way, if anyone is interested, I'm 99.9% sure that Beth hasn't said a word about Maggie this season.

[NoWillToResist]

By the way, if anyone is interested, I'm 99.9% sure that Beth hasn't said a word about Maggie this season.

 

I'm not sure there would have been any point to her speaking about Maggie. She's in a hostile environment with people who won't give three fucks about her having loved ones on the outside. Also, IIRC, the last she knew, Maggie was on the bus that escaped the prison intact, so while Maggie's location is unknown, her status was not really up in the air (she was safe and with some/most of the prison group). Whereas Maggie is among friends and family who WILL care if she's hurting and missing her sister (and father) and has the uneviable fate of a missing family member, having to resign herself to never knowing what became of her sister...

 

Blowing up Terminus didn't make Carol strong or a 'badass'.  She's been holding a moving pity party for herself since she's reunited with the rest of the group.  She practically has 'ask me about the Grove' tattooed on her forehead.

 

In all fairness to Carol, until Consumed, she hadn't said a word about it to anyone. Tyreese brought it up, and Daryl has apparently made it his mission to just...STARE at her, perhaps in expectation that she'll suddenly start talking. I do agree that in Consumed, her bringing it up and then not talking about it was stupid. I can only attribute that to TPTB having to remind us (as if we'd forgotten) that Mika and Lizzie still weigh heavily on Carol's mind. Don't ask me why Maggie isn't getting the same treatment re: her father and sister. Perhaps this is Carol's swan song and you will soon be free of her.... ;)

Edited November 29, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[BrokenRemote]

So there's nothing on and I'm re-watching this episode. I have the closed-captioning on, and watched the scene several times to make sure it matched with what was said, because I was pretty sure of what I'd heard the first time I watched. The doctor definitely tells Beth that he'd give Carol epinephrine to 'ease' her blood-pressure. I can't think of a context where 'ease' means raise, so that's even more confusing...

Edited November 29, 2014 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

I've said it before but I really do think Maggie's silence on Beth is a conscious choice by the writers. Thinking about Maggie, who she's been and what she's said, a few thing cone to mind.

Beth and Maggie have reminded each other that Herschel always told them that everyone has a job to do. When things were bad, when Glen was ill and Herschel was risking his life to treat the sick, Beth reminded her: stop worrying about what you can't change and do your job, like Dad always told us.

We all felt like when Maggie spoke to Glenn that night in the bookstore she could have mentioned Beth. But while she mentioned hoping the others caught up, she spoke--if I recall correctly--most about her hope for the future, as promised by Eugene.

In the ladder scene that bored so many, she didn't talk much, just did what she felt was her job, just like her father always reminded his girls to do. But when she spoke to Abraham, it wasn't 'You think you've lost a lot? My father was beheaded and my sister is missing.' It was (paraphrasing, don't have it word for word) 'You're not the only one that lost something. That dream died for all of us today.'

In my mind, she's been intentionally concentrating on the future, on the hope rather than the loss. She doesn't talk about her father or Beth because she can't change the past. The only thing that's been keeping her going is ignoring the past and focusing on the future, doing her job as she sees it. The only words she had for Abraham were about the loss of that future she'd pinned all her focus on. There wasn't anything else to say.

Now, whether this will eventually catch up with her and she'll snap, or this coping mechanism is what's keeping her going and it's healthy and works for her remains to be seen. But to me it makes sense with who Maggie is and seems consistent throughout this season.

[GreyBunny]

So there's nothing on and I'm re-watching this episode. I have the closed-captioning on, and watched the scene several times to make sure it matched with what was said, because I was pretty sure of what I'd heard the first time I watched. The doctor definitely tells Beth that he'd give Carol epinephrine to 'ease' her blood-pressure. I can't think of a context where 'ease' means raise, so that's even more confusing...

It might have been "raise" and the person who typed the caption got it wrong.  They make mistakes all of the time.  Then again, the doctor could have said "ease" if Doctor Quack was consulting for this episode.

Edited November 29, 2014 by GreyBunny

[kikismom]

It might have been "raise" and the person who typed the caption got it wrong.  They make mistakes all of the time.  Then again, the doctor could have said "ease" if Doctor Quack was consulting for this episode.

Or---as I suspect---it could have been "ease" because the doctor is lying? Beth has already revealed that she doesn't know pharmaceuticals too well. With her father being a vet, and not a physician for humans, she wouldn't know the names of a lot of drugs. I just can't believe that Beth cut Dr. Edwards off when he was trying to tell her why Dawn didn't give her the keys out of the goodness of her heart; it would only take a few seconds to hear what he had to say.

[pasdetrois]

I'm in the minority on the love for MM's acting. While she's doing a serviceable job, I am reminded of situations where someone praises a parent for doing the most basic of their duties. MM is giving us basic, serviceable good acting, but she seems positively Streepian compared to some of the other actors.

[lulee]

But then everyone would have lupus.

It's never lupus!

[Watcher0363]

It's never lupus!

Well I suggest you guys stress test this patient with no pulse, use the treadmill. Then retest for autoimmune and heavy metal poisoning. Because it could be poison or an allergic reaction. God knows who the poor bastard has eaten in the last 24 hours, these types never remove clothing or jewelry before swallowing. Not all women have natural breast like Cameron so test for silicon poisoning.

[mightysparrow]

I'm in the minority on the love for MM's acting. While she's doing a serviceable job, I am reminded of situations where someone praises a parent for doing the most basic of their duties. MM is giving us basic, serviceable good acting, but she seems positively Streepian compared to some of the other actors.

 

You're not alone.

[Raven1707]

In the ladder scene that bored so many, she didn't talk much, just did what she felt was her job, just like her father always reminded his girls to do. But when she spoke to Abraham, it wasn't 'You think you've lost a lot? My father was beheaded and my sister is missing.' It was (paraphrasing, don't have it word for word) 'You're not the only one that lost something. That dream died for all of us today.'

 

 

Here it is...

 

Maggie: (To Abraham) “Get over yourself. You’re not the only one who lost something today. It’s never going to get better than this.”

 

[kikismom]

.

Edited November 29, 2014 by kikismom

[SoSueMe]

I would love to sit in with the writers and check out their method. I wonder if they have divied up the characters amongst themselves and advocate for their assigned peeps. It would be like the discussions here except it would count. Maybe there are even shippers, lol. (I have only learned about shipping since I came here, I am so sheltered, hehe).

[blueridgerobin]

Here it is...

 

Maggie: (To Abraham) “Get over yourself. You’re not the only one who lost something today. It’s never going to get better than this.”

If I remember correctly, when Maggie said that her voice trembled, as if she were on the verge of tears or trying to stifle her emotions.  I'm sure I read an article somewhere in which either Kirkman or Scott Gimple said that her failure to mention her sister would be addressed.  It's possible she can't bear to think too much about the loss of her father and sister.  We may see her snap at some point---remember "Beside The Dying Fire", directly after the fall of the farm, when she was with Glenn and in the grip of near-hysteria over Hershel and Beth.

[NoWillToResist]

We all felt like when Maggie spoke to Glenn that night in the bookstore she could have mentioned Beth. But while she mentioned hoping the others caught up, she spoke--if I recall correctly--most about her hope for the future, as promised by Eugene.

In the ladder scene that bored so many, she didn't talk much, just did what she felt was her job, just like her father always reminded his girls to do. But when she spoke to Abraham, it wasn't 'You think you've lost a lot? My father was beheaded and my sister is missing.' It was (paraphrasing, don't have it word for word) 'You're not the only one that lost something. That dream died for all of us today.'

In my mind, she's been intentionally concentrating on the future, on the hope rather than the loss.

 

 

That's a very good perspective!

 

I guess I just don't see that Beth has to be a loss forever though. I mean, if Eugene had been telling the truth, the ZA would end and civilization etc would start back up again; Communication could be restored. I think it would be nice if it came out that part of why Maggie was so invested in Eugene's plan is because she thought that getting the world back online might help her find her sister (or at least find out what happened to her)...

[Nashville]

It's never lupus!

OR Wheeler's.

OR hemochromatosis.

[Raven1707]

Also, IIRC, the last she knew, Maggie was on the bus that escaped the prison intact, so while Maggie's location is unknown, her status was not really up in the air (she was safe and with some/most of the prison group). Whereas Maggie is among friends and family who WILL care if she's hurting and missing her sister (and father) and has the uneviable fate of a missing family member, having to resign herself to never knowing what became of her sister...

 

 

In "Too Far Gone," when that tank breaks through the outer fences and they run to the bus, Maggie tells Beth to get the people on the bus, that it's her job, and then immediately runs off to go get Glenn. When Maggie returns with Glenn, Beth is not on the bus and the driver tells Maggie that Beth went to find Judith. Maggie goes looking for Beth, leaving Glenn on the bus (or so she thinks). Maggie runs into Sasha and Bob, asks if they've seen Beth, but then Bob gets shot, distracting them all. Then the bus drives off, leaving them behind, and Maggie says they'll figure it out, so off they go. A bit later, Beth (having been unable to find Judith) runs up to Daryl, and he tells her they've got to go.

 

So the last Beth knew, Maggie was NOT on the bus.

 

As for Maggie, I still maintain that the voice-over at the beginning of "No Sanctuary" is enough to establish that she hasn't forgotten her sister...

 

Daryl: “Black car, with a white cross painted on it. Tried to follow it. I tried.”

Maggie: “So she’s alive?”

Daryl: “She’s alive.”

 

There's simply no further information to be had. (For the record, I like both Maggie and Beth.)

[NoWillToResist]

In "Too Far Gone," when that tank breaks through the outer fences and they run to the bus, Maggie tells Beth to get the people on the bus, that it's her job, and then immediately runs off to go get Glenn. When Maggie returns with Glenn, Beth is not on the bus and the driver tells Maggie that Beth went to find Judith. Maggie goes looking for Beth, leaving Glenn on the bus (or so she thinks). Maggie runs into Sasha and Bob, asks if they've seen Beth, but then Bob gets shot, distracting them all. Then the bus drives off, leaving them behind, and Maggie says they'll figure it out, so off they go. A bit later, Beth (having been unable to find Judith) runs up to Daryl, and he tells her they've got to go.

 

So the last Beth knew, Maggie was NOT on the bus.

 

As for Maggie, I still maintain that the voice-over at the beginning of "No Sanctuary" is enough to establish that she hasn't forgotten her sister...

 

Daryl: “Black car, with a white cross painted on it. Tried to follow it. I tried.”

Maggie: “So she’s alive?”

Daryl: “She’s alive.”

 

There's simply no further information to be had. (For the record, I like both Maggie and Beth.)

 

Ah, thank you for the reminder. I thought Maggie and Beth were both on the bus before Beth went to go get Judith.

 

I don't think a lack of new information to be had prevents talking about things. Tyreese has gone on and on about Karen. She's dead and that's been the case for a while; all that's left is to talk about how he FEELS about it. What can't the same be the case for Maggie? Everyone else on that show has been shown to grieve yet Maggie is the exception. I can only hope this is intentional for some reason yet to be revealed.

Edited November 29, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Pete Martell]

I'm not sure there would have been any point to her speaking about Maggie. She's in a hostile environment with people who won't give three fucks about her having loved ones on the outside. Also, IIRC, the last she knew, Maggie was on the bus that escaped the prison intact, so while Maggie's location is unknown, her status was not really up in the air (she was safe and with some/most of the prison group). Whereas Maggie is among friends and family who WILL care if she's hurting and missing her sister (and father) and has the uneviable fate of a missing family member, having to resign herself to never knowing what became of her sister...

 

In all fairness to Carol, until Consumed, she hadn't said a word about it to anyone. Tyreese brought it up, and Daryl has apparently made it his mission to just...STARE at her, perhaps in expectation that she'll suddenly start talking. I do agree that in Consumed, her bringing it up and then not talking about it was stupid. I can only attribute that to TPTB having to remind us (as if we'd forgotten) that Mika and Lizzie still weigh heavily on Carol's mind. Don't ask me why Maggie isn't getting the same treatment re: her father and sister. Perhaps this is Carol's swan song and you will soon be free of her.... ;)

 

Other than Glenn, none of the people Maggie is with knew Beth. She is fond of Tara, but I don't think she can ever really discuss Beth and Hershel with Tara because of The Governor. We've only seen her in one solo scene with Glenn this season, IIRC. I tend to assume she's either just repressing everything, or she confides her guilt and fears in him and we never hear it. I still wish they'd given her that type of scene, but I don't think she's comfortable with most of the people around her.

 

I don't think Daryl was just staring at Carol. He challenged her when her behavior bothered him. I think he knows not to bring up things that have happened to her, because he knows when people did that to him, he lashed out. He only revealed certain things about himself when he felt comfortable doing so. He's waiting until she's ready. And she likely wants to say something, but she isn't ready yet either, because she doesn't know how she feels.

[Raven1707]

Ah, thank you for the reminder. I thought Maggie and Beth were both on the bus before Beth went to go get Judith.

 

I don't think a lack of new information to be had prevents talking about things. Tyreese has gone on and on about Karen. She's dead and that's been the case for a while; all that's left is to talk about how he FEELS about it. What can't the same be the case for Maggie? Everyone else on that show has been shown to grieve yet Maggie is the exception. I can only hope this is intentional for some reason yet to be revealed.

 

Fair point, but then again...it's Tyreese! He's a soft-centered Tootsie Roll Pop compared to the jawbreakers that the others are, heh.

 

I suspect the writers might just be waiting with Maggie, to show her reaction only when she finally knows beyond any doubt what happened to Beth. Sometimes a slow reveal works, sometimes it doesn't, and there will always be a certain percentage of viewers who seriously have no patience for that.

 

With any luck, we'll know soon.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Raven1707

[Pete Martell]

I'm in the minority on the love for MM's acting. While she's doing a serviceable job, I am reminded of situations where someone praises a parent for doing the most basic of their duties. MM is giving us basic, serviceable good acting, but she seems positively Streepian compared to some of the other actors.

 

I would have agreed a few years ago, when the main women on the show like SWC and Laurie Holden were struggling with truly bad material, but I don't think the current cast is full of terrible actors who make Melissa McBride look good. I know a lot of people here, there, and everywhere think Andrew Lincoln is a bad actor, ditto for Emily Kinney (I like them both but I realize I'm in the minority), but even if you take them out of it, people like Danai Gurira, Norman Reedus, Chandler Riggs, do an excellent job with what they have (although Danai and Chandler haven't had much to do lately...). I also think Sonequa Martin-Green, Chad Coleman and Alanna Masterson have been strong this season, as have the rest of the DC group with some messy material. 

 

The thing with Melissa is most of her recent material has been with very few screen partners. In "Indifference" it was just Andrew and a few guest stars. "Consumed" she was just with Norman and the guy who plays Noah. In "The Grove," with Chad and the two girls. In "No Sanctuary" the bulk of her scenes were on her own. So she can't rely on bad actors to somehow prop her up. She had to carry many of her scenes herself or with a small handful of people. And I think she did that exceptionally well. I think most of the actors raised each other's games and it was some of the most natural, honest acting I've seen on TV in a long time.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Pete Martell