The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[phoenics]

Sorry. Needed to get this out. It really is doing my head in.

 

WRITERS: Writing for witnesses is haard. I can’t keep all the story straight.

TPTB: And apocalypses are expensive. And costumes. Also Georgia.

WRITERS: Stupid viewers. What do they know?

TPTB: It’s all got a bit out of hand and uncomfortable. I’m not sure why. Just- something’s not right.

Let’s get back to basics. What have we got? A guy. Fish out of water… he’s good looking, but not in a modern way. A hot Brit.

WRITERS: Chicks love hot Brits. 

TPTB: With great manners. Like, what was that show? Forever. He’ll be really smart – and a gentleman. Get rid of most of the monsters, we’ll take him to DC.

WRITERS: It will be crazy! All the stuff he doesn’t know about. Elections, traffic, parties with hot chicks. Science.

TPTB: And we’ll give him a sidekick, but-  No. Too risky. We’ll give him a male sidekick. Maybe we can get in Hodges from Bones. We do need a woman. Jenny can pop in and out. But let’s make a female detective as well. You know the type. There, Now we’ve got lots of women.

WRITERS: Look. Let’s be really different. Let’s make her really hot, but she doesn’t know it. Like she’s all business. But she’s a goddess. But like it’s platonic.  They solve crimes together each week.

TPTB: And they won’t love each other, because he’s in pain. But there will be something. But let’s streamline our casting a bit. Someone who- Again, I can’t put my finger on it.

WRITER: I think I’ve got you. And, yes, PAIN. Because he lost someone he loved but it’ll just be there. And all these women will keep throwing themselves at him. But he’s in pain.

TPTB: Yeah, but he can sleep with them! He’s not a monk. But he can’t commit. But he’s got great manners so they don’t mind.

WRITERS: This is BRILLIANT.

^^^^^ Hahahaha!!

Edited April 9, 2016 by phoenics

[Three]

Really kinda wishing I hadn't started watching Lucifer this season on Fox and absolutely fallen in love with it. God only knows (pun intended) what they'll do to it in season 2.

 

You know, I deliberately did not watch Lucifer because I didn't want to give it any traction over SH. (Yes, my viewing vote is that important. lol.) If there was only room for one hot Brit on the network, I wanted SH to survive. There was too much good in it. Don't know why I bothered now. They have just trashed all the good things.

[Ananayel]

My own small protest - I went to Twitter and unfollowed everyone associated with this mess except Nicole, Zach, Lyndie and Orlando. The rest of those clowns - toast. I know it's not much, but I hope others do it too, and the writers/showrunner wake up tomorrow to have only followers that are related to them.

[Trini]

I'm trying to think of any show that completely retcon'd the premise of it's own show just to kill off a character.

 

Not just a character, one of the leads. I'm blanking. If this comes back for a fourth season, it could really be unprecedented.

[Indi]

I have not often agreed with you, but now I see that you were right.  I am so mad!!! (Not about agreeing with you -- I have no problem with that -- but about this once-brilliant show.)

 

And I am mad that you had to end up agreeing with me. I would have preferred a happy ending than being proven right. 

[Sasha]

What's the story that came out about Orlando? I don't follow social media.

[netlyon2]

Regarding Orlando's exit:

The story was first broken by "Variety" in May 2015, but there were precious few details (source: TV Line).

Sleepy Hollow‘s Captain Irving won’t report for duty when the Fox supernatural drama returns this fall.

Orlando Jones, who has played the lawman since the show’s debut, won’t be back for Season 3, our sister site Variety reports.

His exit comes as the ratings-challenged show undergoes a regime change: The Glades‘ Clifton Campbell recently replaced Mark Goffman as showrunner.

Irving, who in Season 1 proved himself an ally to Ichabod and Abbie in their fight to stave off the apocalypse, spent much of last season on the fringe of the action. He died during a fight, only to be resurrected and controlled by the evil Henry, though that control seemed to go poof after Henry’s own death.

Jones, a prolific user of social media, has not yet commented publicly about his exit.

A Sleepy Hollow rep says the show has no comment at this time.

Things remained pretty quiet, though I vaguely remember speculation that he was able to get the production company' support for his independent projects. Then, in December, Orlando revealed what happened during a Q&A with fans (source: TV Guide)

The erstwhile Capt. Frank Irving dished for the first time on why he isn't in the third season of Fox's Sleepy Hollow in a fan Q&A video posted to YouTube on Saturday.

Orlando Jones says that the creators took the show in a different direction and there just wasn't room for Captain Irving anymore. And while Jones is open to a guest appearance, fans shouldn't get their hopes up:

"Chances are, I won't be back, because they kinda asked me to leave," he says.

This is the first time Jones has spoken publicly about leaving the show since his departure was announced in May.

And he put it even more plainly this weekend, interacting with a fan on Twitter:

OJ: "The white male lead should totally sacrifice his life to protect the *dark skinned* black girl" said no development executive EVER.

FAN: @TheOrlandoJones don't get fired.

OJ: @donniejohnson4 Too late

Side note: I just learned that today is Orlando's birthday!

[MizArk]

So, I've had a couple days to think about it, and I still honestly can't understand the decision making behind this show. It just makes no sense to me whatever. They had a surprise hit on their hands during the first season -- a lightning in a bottle hit that most new series showrunners would sell their souls for (pun intended). Chemistry off the charts with the two leads -- another rare gift to them. And it was a vocal group of fans, telling them exactly what they liked about the show. One would think they'd say, wow, this is working - let's not change anything!
 

So then a new (male) head comes in and says maybe we need more bewbs!! Let's make Katrina a bigger part of the show, put her in a tiny bustier and tight pants and give the (desired young male demographic) something to watch for. The viewers love us so much we can do no wrong! We're bulletproof! They're probably watching for the hot Brit guy and the boobs, anyway, with a side dish of monster-y stuff. They're probably not invested in the equally (if not more) beautiful but darker skinned, intelligent but not-corset-wearing, badass-without-(unreliable)super powers Co-Lead of the first season. Right? The scary headless guy isn't all that important, let's just make him a whiny, scorned boob-coveter -- our young male audience will identify! And look, we can divide the silly 'shipper audience (e.g. females) into teams, like that movie series Twilight did! Team Icabbie v Team Icatrina! They'll love it!

 

Audience leaves in droves.

 

So now, any intelligent (okay, I'm reaching here) showrunner would likely think, oh, crap. We messed up. We should listen to the viewers and go back to the original show they liked so much. The core team of Ichabod, Abbie, Jenny and Irving standing side-by-side or back-to-back as needed to save the world, each willing to die for the greater good (not just Abbie sacrificing herself repeatedly). Abbie and Ichabod, the Witnesses, two totally disparate characters from different times, different worlds, discovering they were meant all along to be united in this great battle, against all obstacles. Two parts of a whole, neither more important than the other, both aware of that fact. But no. Instead, they seemed to say, Damn, there's still too much chemistry between the leads! These two are still too popular, and could bring the show back from near death. We must stop this!! Bring in more white women with boobs! Focus on an evil couple with no coherent plan who sit in a cave and talk a lot! Fine, give that other girl -- Jenny? -- a romance, maybe that'll make the shippers happy while we try everything we can think of to distract them from what they foolishly think they wanted from this show!

 

Why????

 

Okay, obviously I'm overthinking this, and need more coffee. It still just doesn't make any sense to me. I have to accept that Sleepy Hollow is gone (has been since the end of season 1, really) and won't be coming back whatever these idiots decide to try. Even if they stumble into a new plotline that isn't bad -- which I doubt -- it won't be the same show I tried so hard to love. Not without the heart of the team -- Abbie and Ichabod. Just another TV series disappointment -- but I'll never understand the BTS logic of this one.

[Sasha]

Thanks Netlyon2!

That still leaves so many unanswered questions. Getting fired seems a little different than your storyline ended and we're moving in a different direction. I would guess Orlando had been told great things were coming for Irving, like becoming a horseman, only to be blindsided with a pink slip.

Does anyone know how contracts work for these type shows? TPTB make it sound like they were so generous letting NB out of her deal because she wanted to move on. But now we're hearing TM is in negotiations for a possible S4. He had three years and she had four? I knew something was up when they kept Crane and Abbie apart so much this year. They knew she wouldn't be coming back. There was no reason to kill her unless they thought a S4 was a good possibility. They could have ended the series on a high note and sacrifice both witnesses to save the world. Together at least. You get a S4 and you figure it out later. It is a sci fi show after all.

TPTB are never generous. If they had her locked into a contract they would not risk the show. They wanted her gone and were planning for Crane to move on from the start of this season. I also think by telling everyone how it was NB that wanted to leave they are implying it's all her fault. There will also be people who think she was trouble and they fired her. Either way they are not to blame. No S4? Well how could they when NB abandoned them?

Maybe they were stupid and didn't expect the backlash. I am willing to bet if the fan outrage gets louder they will start leaking stories of diva behavior behind the scenes. NB did something to piss somebody off. Stood up for herself in some way to anger the old white boys club. Now she has to keep to the party line or get black listed. I hope she can take some comfort in the fan reaction.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Sasha

[Julia]

I'm just gonna throw this out there: does it seem to anybody else that their "myth arc" is pretty much made of medical grade handwavium? Because we don't hear from these writers that x, y and z are the things we're dealing with, and then see that shaping the plot as it unfolds. What we got this season (give this to season 2, they were consistent) was a big pile of wtf moments which were retrofitted after the fact into the "myth arc."

So while it pisses me off too that I didn't get the resolution of that story, I'm pretty sure that these guys threw out the whole witness structure on day one, and "myth arc" is code for "I'm the writer, shut up."

[Dobian]

Very simply, the show should have remained focused on the partnership between Ichabod and Abbie, kind of like in shows like Elementary (though I haven't watched that show much).  It took a left turn when they brought Katrina to the present and made her the center of Ichabod's attention in season 2, while Abbie got shunted to the side.  You had whole episodes where Ichabod and Abbie barely interacted.  This was a terrible writing decision, as the second season of any show is where you build on the character relationship dynamics from the first season.  Why NB left the show is open to speculation.  Maybe she will be candid about it and eventually explain why.  Maybe she just wasn't that into the show and wanted to do something else.  Maybe she was upset at the show's direction and how her character was being written.  It will be interesting to see.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I just took the FOX survey and let loose everything I've been feeling since Friday night. I feel oddly better now. Kind of like having a good cry after a really crappy week.

 

Somehow, I feel like, if we ever find out exactly why NB left the show, it won't be from her. She strikes me as one who won't go public with SH dirty laundry.

 

Happy Birthday, Trollando!

[HalcyonDays]

Very simply, the show should have remained focused on the partnership between Ichabod and Abbie.

 

The worst part (okay, it's not the worst, the DEATH was the worst), but that on any rewatch, the whole interactions between Abbie and Crane seem hollow now. I know I wanted my ship to sail, but all of those lovely, quiet bonding scenes together, or the intense ones of either losing it to save the other, are completely meaningless now. I deleted all of the episodes I had saved from my DVR (except Ragnarok), simply because I just can't rewatch it now.

[Leia1979]

Run Mison run. Go back and do some theater in London and some quality drama/comedy on the BBC. Have a happy, creative life. It's not worth the money.

I think this would be fantastic advice for him. Benedict Cumberbatch and David Tennant did Hamlet and Richard II respectively in London over the past year to sold-out shows. Tom Mison might not have quite the same draw, but I think he could bring in a decent audience.

 

The worst part (okay, it's not the worst, the DEATH was the worst), but that on any rewatch, the whole interactions between Abbie and Crane seem hollow now. I know I wanted my ship to sail, but all of those lovely, quiet bonding scenes together, or the intense ones of either losing it to save the other, are completely meaningless now. I deleted all of the episodes I had saved from my DVR (except Ragnarok), simply because I just can't rewatch it now.

 

Yes, the ending rather spoiled the whole series for me. I'll give it some time and try going back to the first season. I really wanted this show to be some insane apocalyptic tribute to the X-Files. That's sort of how I would describe it to people in the first season. When I first saw commercials for this show, I thought it looked so dumb, but then on a flight home from somewhere, the pilot episode was the only free thing I could watch on the plane, and so I gave it a try and surprisingly loved it. Gah! Why did they have to go and ruin a good thing?

[TaurusRose]

You know, I deliberately did not watch Lucifer because I didn't want to give it any traction over SH. (Yes, my viewing vote is that important. lol.) If there was only room for one hot Brit on the network, I wanted SH to survive. There was too much good in it. Don't know why I bothered now. They have just trashed all the good things.

I didn't make it through the first episode of Lucifer. I've been given the gift of discriminating taste at "the highest caliber," so a foreign accent coupled with TV Land's idea of a hot looking man, isn't enough to draw me in. The actor playing Lucifer is not attractive to me and he was just too over the top in all of his scenes, not to mention how many times are we going to have this particular formula forced on us? No. No. And No.

 

Unfortunately, I think we'll also see that this will unleash a world of hate from Tom Mison fans, who will rail against NB if the show isn't renewed or if ratings plummet next season. They'll blame her rather than the showrunners, which I think we've already seen start to happen.

This is the downside of stans who hold a narrow view of the entire landscape. And if that's the position they want to take, I personally don't care and to hell with them. The only thing I will be satisfied with is confirmation of a non-renewal decision where SH is concerned. I like TM, too, but fair is fair. SH's showrunners are the ones SOLELY responsible for this mess. Woe to any TM fan I run across who disparages NB in any way.

Edited April 10, 2016 by taurusrose

[C76]

So, I've had a couple days to think about it, and I still honestly can't understand the decision making behind this show. It just makes no sense to me whatever. They had a surprise hit on their hands during the first season -- a lightning in a bottle hit that most new series showrunners would sell their souls for (pun intended). Chemistry off the charts with the two leads -- another rare gift to them. And it was a vocal group of fans, telling them exactly what they liked about the show. One would think they'd say, wow, this is working - let's not change anything!

 

So then a new (male) head comes in and says maybe we need more bewbs!! Let's make Katrina a bigger part of the show, put her in a tiny bustier and tight pants and give the (desired young male demographic) something to watch for. The viewers love us so much we can do no wrong! We're bulletproof! They're probably watching for the hot Brit guy and the boobs, anyway, with a side dish of monster-y stuff. They're probably not invested in the equally (if not more) beautiful but darker skinned, intelligent but not-corset-wearing, badass-without-(unreliable)super powers Co-Lead of the first season. Right? The scary headless guy isn't all that important, let's just make him a whiny, scorned boob-coveter -- our young male audience will identify! And look, we can divide the silly 'shipper audience (e.g. females) into teams, like that movie series Twilight did! Team Icabbie v Team Icatrina! They'll love it!

 

Audience leaves in droves.

 

So now, any intelligent (okay, I'm reaching here) showrunner would likely think, oh, crap. We messed up. We should listen to the viewers and go back to the original show they liked so much. The core team of Ichabod, Abbie, Jenny and Irving standing side-by-side or back-to-back as needed to save the world, each willing to die for the greater good (not just Abbie sacrificing herself repeatedly). Abbie and Ichabod, the Witnesses, two totally disparate characters from different times, different worlds, discovering they were meant all along to be united in this great battle, against all obstacles. Two parts of a whole, neither more important than the other, both aware of that fact. But no. Instead, they seemed to say, Damn, there's still too much chemistry between the leads! These two are still too popular, and could bring the show back from near death. We must stop this!! Bring in more white women with boobs! Focus on an evil couple with no coherent plan who sit in a cave and talk a lot! Fine, give that other girl -- Jenny? -- a romance, maybe that'll make the shippers happy while we try everything we can think of to distract them from what they foolishly think they wanted from this show!

 

Why????

 

Okay, obviously I'm overthinking this, and need more coffee. It still just doesn't make any sense to me. I have to accept that Sleepy Hollow is gone (has been since the end of season 1, really) and won't be coming back whatever these idiots decide to try. Even if they stumble into a new plotline that isn't bad -- which I doubt -- it won't be the same show I tried so hard to love. Not without the heart of the team -- Abbie and Ichabod. Just another TV series disappointment -- but I'll never understand the BTS logic of this one.

 

Incidents like the season (series?) finale are the reason I wish that viewers were taken seriously as actual stakeholders in the media--or in this case, television shows. It seems as though TPTB were only considering themselves when they wrote this episode. As for this thread, usually I hate to make assumptions. But in spite of any comedic elements, between three's post and the part I bolded above, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we had an accurate depiction of the level of thinking that's gone into this show over the past several episodes. 

 

I fell in love with Sleepy Hollow over a year ago and binged my way through Season 1. The amount of underestimating that TPTB have done is ridiculous. It's as though they think that only stereotypical WM fanboys watch their program. (Newsflash, guys. If a POC is cast as a lead on a show, I can guarantee that POC make up a part of its fan base.) As a BW, I want to see BW and other POC in lead roles beyond the borders of Shondaland. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are dynamic individuals who are worth more than being depicted as props for other characters. Do TPTB not realize that we enjoy sci-fi?

 

Also, I know I just used the term in a negative way, but I must say something about fangirls and fanboys. Sometimes we're (they're?) given a terrible reputation. Nevertheless, we are legitimate fans. S1 of this show made me giddy, and with good reason. From the beginning, Abbie and Crane were presented as equals. I have always taken Abbie seriously as a lead character. The episodes' plots and characters held my attention.

 

Honestly. There are times when I'm ok with the decision to kill a character and I don't doubt the legitimacy of the decision behind his or her death. This is not one of those times.

 

And yet, in spite of this negativity, a small part of me is hopeful. The language in an interview that was posted (either in this or another thread) made me wonder if there was a way for NB to come back as another character. Hell, she could be the alternative-universe version of Abbie, for all I care. I'd actually be ok with that...If I didn't believe that NB had no intention of returning. 

 

Lastly, one quibble I have relates to the way the Ichabbie ship was handled. I understand that TM and NB were against the idea of their characters becoming romantic partners. However, as much as I respect them, they do not write or produce the show. The last word belongs to TPTB. If I were in control of SH, I wouldn't have demanded a love scene in every episode, yet I can't help but wonder about the limits of the writers' imaginations.  There are ways to write relationships that don't involve insulting the performers' and audience's intelligence. What was the point of all of Abbie and Crane's declarations about their "bond" and being each other's person, etc.? I don't want to go back into other episodes and count their smiles, gestures, etc. 

 

Why were they so afraid to call a spade a spade? 

 

ETA: 

I almost feel like saying,"Don't show me a duck and call it a pizza." Being honest about the fact that a series' leads are in a relationship does not have to mean its demise.

Edited April 10, 2016 by C76

[jhlipton]

WRITERS: Look. Let’s be really different. Let’s make her really hot, but she doesn’t know it. Like she’s all business. But she’s a goddess. But like it’s platonic. They solve crimes together each week.

This is great but you left out one line...

TPTB: Indian company XZY holds 25% of our stock -- it would make them happy if she was at least half-Indian. We can promote her as a Woman of Color -- Diversity!!!!

 

And I am mad that you had to end up agreeing with me. I would have preferred a happy ending than being proven right.

If it helps, I really did agree with you at times. :)

 

And it was a vocal group of fans, telling them exactly what they liked about the show. One would think they'd say, wow, this is working - let's not change anything!

Not just the fans. The critics also told them exactly what was right and what was wrong. It was a pretty unanimous chorus -- #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter How do you miss that message?

 

"myth arc" is code for "I'm the writer, shut up."

They're using the Book of Job as their guideline (The Book of Job ends with God pretty much telling Job, "I'm the writer, shut up.")

 

Very simply, the show should have remained focused on the partnership between Ichabod and Abbie, kind of like in shows like Elementary

With Elementary, they were very quick to establish that Holmes and Watson were and always would be platonic partners. They're at the point now where they tease each other about silly things they do, just like really good friends, but without a speck of romance.

[cynic]

I'm just gonna throw this out there: does it seem to anybody else that their "myth arc" is pretty much made of medical grade handwavium? Because we don't hear from these writers that x, y and z are the things we're dealing with, and then see that shaping the plot as it unfolds. What we got this season (give this to season 2, they were consistent) was a big pile of wtf moments which were retrofitted after the fact into the "myth arc."

So while it pisses me off too that I didn't get the resolution of that story, I'm pretty sure that these guys threw out the whole witness structure on day one, and "myth arc" is code for "I'm the writer, shut up."

The soul transfer thing came out of thin freaking air. It's like they meant to kill Abbie off and just move on without another thought, but then someone reminded them that 1) she's kinda important to the entire mythology of the show and 2) people might actually miss her, so they came up with this "twist". What hacks. It's bad enough that they basically gave Abbie the same "death" twice, like they changed her mind about letting Beharie leave at mid-season and just redid the exact same story at the finale, but it's infuriating that they are really going act like she's interchangeable.

  

I didn't make it through the first episode of Lucifer. I've been given the gift of discriminating taste at "the highest caliber," so a foreign accent coupled with TV Land's idea of a hot looking man, isn't enough to draw me in. The actor playing Lucifer is not attractive to me and he was just too over the top in all of his scenes, not to mention how many times are we going to have this particular formula forced on us? No. No. And No....

I totally feel like Fox tried to recreate the hot Brit out of water/tough female cop thing with Lucifer. (Of course, there are differences, like she's a blonde and the show telegraphed their OTP-Ness from the start.) I liked it initially, but the procedural aspects are super generic and tedious and his shtick gets old fast. I need more than a hot Brit to keep watching something.

[Three]

This is great but you left out one line...

TPTB: Indian company XZY holds 25% of our stock -- it would make them happy if she was at least half-Indian. We can promote her as a Woman of Color -- Diversity!!!!

 

I read that and thought that can’t be a thing. Can it? Is that a thing? Then thought about it and realized it is indeed a thing. Deep sigh.

I am so bummed about this all and the wider implications about the way the world – entertainment world? – no, world, is. They had an opportunity to do something amazing and they fouled it. Strike that, they trashed it, stamped all over it, made sure it was dead, then put a used bunch of flowers from a gas station over it, while they mouthed insincere platitudes. I’m not a twitter person but I read through Nikki Beharie’s timeline out of interest, as others had mentioned a change. And there was. There was this lightness and fun, even seemed to be enthusiasm about starting Season 3, and then there is a noticeable dip.

I can speculate, even be sure I’m right (without of course knowing), but bottom line this is a travesty. They got rid of a gorgeous, awesome, ground breaking character and story-line, for what? Man, I could write a thesis on why she and her character were great. It is just a huge loss, not just for the show but also for helping move the industry and the world forward in a good direction.

I did wonder whether Richonne becoming a thing lead to a decision to twist the end a bit (no glory in coming second) but the ep would have been put to bed by then, I think?

So, if we accept that they (TPTB/writers) spent the whole season manipulating ichabbie shippers in order to sustain their numbers and keep the show going, while at the same time plotting her demise in the most dismissive, tone deaf way possible, what makes them think they can then sustain another season? Where is this magical audience they are changing things for going to come from?

I’ve made myself mad again. Assholes.

Also, there was some suggestion somewhere that people don’t love Tom. I love Tom, I think he’s great and gorgeous and delightful and wish him well in all his endeavors. But there doesn’t seem to be any shortage of roles for good looking white men.

[catrox14]

I think I've lost my mind. I decided to re-watch the finale to see if I got something worthwhile out of it...

 

It was the worst. The literal worst season finale and character death I have ever seen ( no lie, I watch too damn much TV).

 

I put this above Dexter because at least Dexter didn't change the premise of the whole fucking show.

Headless was much smaller than Headless 1.0l. He didn't have the stature or proper demeanor of Headless at all. So now I'm offended that they reduced Headless too!

 

UGH

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by catrox14

[blixie]

 

They got rid of a gorgeous, awesome, ground breaking character and story-line, for what?

 

 

Betsy fucking Ross. Katrina. Hawley. Sophie. Jenny-Joe romance. Anything but Ichabbie for fucks sake, the only thing that made the show a surprise hit in the first place. 

 

It hurts my heart to have lost Abbie Mills as embodied and portrayed by Nicole Beharie.  HURTS MY HEART.

[jhlipton]

One of the dumbest things I've read was that Beharie didn't want Ichabbie because, according to this source, she didn't want "to be pimped to to the white guy".  That belies Beharie's past career, the partners thing.. it's just so wrong on so many levels!
 

 
1] I read that and thought that can’t be a thing. Can it? Is that a thing? Then thought about it and realized it is indeed a thing. Deep sigh.
I am so bummed about this all and the wider implications about the way the world – entertainment world? – no, world, is.

 

2] But there doesn’t seem to be any shortage of roles for good looking white men

 

3] I did wonder whether Richonne becoming a thing lead to a decision to twist the end a bit (no glory in coming second) but the ep would have been put to bed by then, I think?.

 

Rearranging your points a bit

1] Indeed -- what I call status quo or structural racism.  It's the blindness that lets every show-runner see their show in a bubble.  They're doing "color-blind casting" -- it's not their fault that the best women for the part are a light caramel color at best, nor is it their fault when every show has caramel colored women at best.

 

2] Maybe it's just my own perception, but I've noticed a major upswing in black men as well.  They don't do as well as the white Brits, of course, but they do a hella better than black women.

 

3] Yeah, I don't think so.  I just don't see much ion common, and the timing appears to be off.

 

It hurts my heart to have lost Abbie Mills as embodied and portrayed by Nicole Beharie.  HURTS MY HEART.

 

Mine too.

[archiesmom]

I figured this was the right thread for my complaints. I let my feelings out  about what they did to Abbie in the episode thread. 

 

FWIW...If they had killed off Ichabod I would've been done with the show too. I was pretty much just watching for the two of them anyway. Once they took one of them out of the equation the wool was lifted from my eyes. 

This season the show at it's basic core sucked. I was bored most of the time just waiting around for the witnesses to do anything together. They introduced lame characters and couldn't write a tight story to save their lives. 

 

Here is where I'm getting pissed off. After reading they planned on killing Abbie off midseason but got cold feet, the second half started to make sense. It seems as though they tried to appease to every subset of the fandom they could to get fantastic ratings for the finale. Probably to secure their 4th season.

 

They baited the ship so hard that even non-shippers were all over it. 

They baited the Abbie fans who were still looking for Ichabod to make amends for some of his past behavior.

They baited the fans who just wanted Abbie to have love.

They baited the fans who just wanted some season one goodness.

They obviously cut Betsy scenes and droppped Zoe like she didn't exist.

They brought in Ezra Mills at the last minute 

 

They did all of this knowing they were about to kill her off. They knew if they even hinted she was being killed off they wouldn't have had half the viewers for the finale. Instead of giving her a proper goodbye we got that incredibly hollow, offensive death scene because they wanted people to watch.

 

I feel so gross about this show now. My heart hurts for what could have been and the excitement I felt after the finale last year. I feel pretty foolish too. 

[catrox14]

 

One of the dumbest things I've read was that Beharie didn't want Ichabbie because, according to this source, she didn't want "to be pimped to to the white guy".  That belies Beharie's past career, the partners thing.. it's just so wrong on so many levels!

 

OH JFC. That has got to be a load of crap. Wow.

[PaisleyPark]

I did wonder whether Richonne becoming a thing lead to a decision to twist the end a bit (no glory in coming second) but the ep would have been put to bed by then, I think?

Also, there was some suggestion somewhere that people don’t love Tom. I love Tom, I think he’s great and gorgeous and delightful and wish him well in all his endeavors. But there doesn’t seem to be any shortage of roles for good looking white men.

TWD will forever get my kudos for starting Richonne.  They knew the fandom had been rallying for it for so long, they built a great story for them, and finally went for it.  Fans couldn't be happier.  They had the balls to do it.  TPTB involved with Sleepy Hollow just doesn't get it.....they just don't get it.

 

As for Tom, he is the reason I checked this show out in the first place.  I saw him on a billboard for the Season 1 premiere and thought he was so hot.  So yeah, he's what drew me in and I honestly wouldn't have watched if it weren't for him, as I'm not really a fan of sci-fi shows.  I had never heard of Nikki prior to the show, so she wasn't even a factor for me.  Once you start watching the show, you see how cute she and Tom are together that you can't help but ship Ichabbie.  It just sucks that we never got that before Nikki left.

[cynic]

One of the dumbest things I've read was that Beharie didn't want Ichabbie because, according to this source, she didn't want "to be pimped to to the white guy". That belies Beharie's past career, the partners thing.. it's just so wrong on so many levels!

That's so crazy. It's not like she's against interracial relationships. She not only was paired with Michael Fassbender in the movie Shame, but she also dated him in real life. Lucky girl.

Edited April 11, 2016 by cynic

[benteen]

 

FWIW...If they had killed off Ichabod I would've been done with the show too. I was pretty much just watching for the two of them anyway.

 

Agreed.  I wouldn't want to see a show with just Ichabod and I wouldn't want to see a show with just Abbie.  Both of them are great but the strength of the show always came from the two of them working with each other.

[DeLurker]

That's so crazy. It's not like she's against interracial relationships. She not only was paired with Michael Fassbender in the movie Shame, but she also dated him in real life. Lucky girl.

And Lucky Boy.

[LeeLeePanda]

Agreed. I wouldn't want to see a show with just Ichabod and I wouldn't want to see a show with just Abbie. Both of them are great but the strength of the show always came from the two of them working with each other.

Same here. Mison and Beharie made the show. The show worked because of them together. There was some speculation that Crane would be killed off a few weeks ago, and I thought it was so silly. I honestly thought the writers wouldn't be so stupid to kill off the lead of the show. I totally overestimated them.

[LydiaMoon1]

What Went Wrong With Sleepy Hollow in 3 Easy Steps:

 

1. They refused to capitalize on the chemistry between the show’s black female and white male lead characters.
2. They marginalized the black, female lead because they either didn’t welcome or resented her chemistry with the male lead.
3. When their attempt to replace the show’s black female lead backfired, they abandoned the show’s premise instead.

 

There’s been plenty of discussion of 1 and 2, so I won’t repeat it.  It just makes me mad anyway.  Instead, I’ll save my comments for the ridiculousness of number 3.  I mean, really Fox? The showrunner and writers of your hit show tell you that they can’t write an apocalypse story anymore because <whiny kid’s voice> “it’s too hard”. And you didn’t fire them on the spot?  Can you imagine how the execs at AMC would react if the writers of The Walking Dead told them they didn’t want to write about zombies anymore? 

 

None of the showrunners and writers of Sleepy Hollow or the executives at Fox deserve to work ever again. That type of incompetence should never be rewarded.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Once Orci and Kutzman left, a bullseye was on Nicole's back.

[phoenics]

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't leave well enough alone? I mean - the show as it premiered got like 14 million fans. That's EPIC for Fox. Especially then, pre-Empire. And they just squandered it. I don't get it. I mean - did they think that if they changed it and made it generic and pushed NB aside, they'd get MORE fans?

Poor Nicole.

[C76]

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't leave well enough alone? I mean - the show as it premiered got like 14 million fans. That's EPIC for Fox. Especially then, pre-Empire. And they just squandered it. I don't get it. I mean - did they think that if they changed it and made it generic and pushed NB aside, they'd get MORE fans?

Poor Nicole.

 

I know, right? In the time since my last post, I went hunting for the show's ratings. Their first season was their best. I wish I knew what really happened, in terms of who decided what. TPTB shouldn't have changed a thing.

 

In fact as far as I'm concerned, those in TPTB shouldn't have been changed, period.

[phoenics]

I know, right? In the time since my last post, I went hunting for the show's ratings. Their first season was their best. I wish I knew what really happened, in terms of who decided what. TPTB shouldn't have changed a thing.

 

In fact as far as I'm concerned, those in TPTB shouldn't have been changed, period.

Yes - the original creators should have stayed and Goffman shouldn't have been allowed to become show runner. EVER.

[LeeLeePanda]

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't leave well enough alone? I mean - the show as it premiered got like 14 million fans. That's EPIC for Fox. Especially then, pre-Empire. And they just squandered it. I don't get it. I mean - did they think that if they changed it and made it generic and pushed NB aside, they'd get MORE fans?

Poor Nicole.

That's the kicker! It's like they've never heard the phrases "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"! The first season wasn't perfect, but it was definitely entertaining.

[FierceAfroChick]

Once Orci and Kutzman left, a bullseye was on Nicole's back.

But they didn't really give a shit about Nicole either.  They practically greenlit that shift to the Katrina focus and wasn't Katia yucking it up with them and consulting on her story?  That says to me that even if they'd stayed, Nicole would have been treated just as badly, probably worse.

[Dobian]

Maybe NB will talk about it one day after the dust has settled.  I get the feeling she wasn't happy at all with season 2 with the Katrina shift and wanted off the show.  I'm not sure if she had issues with Mison or just the writers, only she can say.

[LydiaMoon1]

I guess I just don't understand why they couldn't leave well enough alone? I mean - the show as it premiered got like 14 million fans. That's EPIC for Fox. Especially then, pre-Empire. And they just squandered it. I don't get it. I mean - did they think that if they changed it and made it generic and pushed NB aside, they'd get MORE fans?

 

In a word....yes.  They wanted to attract the the Star Wars/Firefly/Dr. Who-type fanboys and they didn't think Nicole was the girl to do it.  Thus, we got the ever-corseted Katrina and Boobsy Ross.  I guess nobody explained to them that whole bird in the hand thing......... or the enduring sex appeal of Lt. Uhura.

Edited April 11, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[benteen]

Even buttoned up as she often was on Sleepy Hollow, Nicole looked great and was a sexy woman.  The appeal was always there in so many ways but TPTB chose to ignore that.

[kieyra]

God, it's really been a painful month or so to be a television fan, especially one invested in diversity/equality issues. The 'fridge' is full to overflowing. 

 

(And, whee, now it's Game of Thrones season!)

 

It's also very painful to be a resident of NC right now.

 

Right now just generally sucks.

 

Anyway, this thread title has never been more apt. I've been emotionally checked out of the show since S2, but I had vague hope for S3. I noticed (and posted) at the beginning of S3 NB seemed extremely cold and withdrawn in her performances (or at least: Abbie was being cold and withdrawn to the other characters, including treating Ichabod like an annoying little brother). Some of that was writing, but now I wonder if NB has just been over it for a long time. I can't blame her. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by kieyra

[rogueprinzess]

That's so crazy. It's not like she's against interracial relationships. She not only was paired with Michael Fassbender in the movie Shame, but she also dated him in real life. Lucky girl.

 

And to add to that, Nicole's a yaadie like me (translation: Jamaican girl) and that island has got one of the most diverse populations in the world. We just aren't (typically) raised worrying about what colour other people are, especially when we likely have some (or a lot) of that DNA in us too. No, in the majority of the interviews I watched with her where she was asked about Ichabbie getting romantic, she usually just replied saying that it was rare to have a show with two heterosexual leads of the opposite sex that just stayed platonic friends and that she enjoyed that dynamic with Tom. I personally never got the impression that she was against it if the timing and writing was right for it (see Richonne on TWD for how to properly write for and execute a friends-to-lovers storyline near damned perfectly). 

 

Everything I felt about the finale has pretty much been said so I won't really add much. Absolutely the WORST 40-odd minutes of television I've ever watched, and that's saying something since I've watched some pretty crappy shows.I don't even know how the actors managed to get through filming it without wretching directly on the script. Anyways, can't wait for Nikki's next endeavor. She's so beautiful and talented and deserves a project that appreciates her efforts. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by rogueprinzess

[TaurusRose]

I expressed my feelings towards network television in the episode thread. To that end, this is what I have done to let ABC, Fox, and CW (the only networks airing shows that I watch) what the deal is going forward.

I've tweeted said networks and told them that I am dropping the shows I watch (Empire, Gotham, Quantico, OUAT, Reign & BATB). ABC & CW were advised to thank Fox and SH for my missing eyeballs. If Fox won't listen to their viewers, and enough people stop watching other networks and TELLING them WHY, just maybe the television industry (I'm looking at you, Fox and company) will get a clue and stop fucking around. Disrespecting and abusing non-white talent has got to stop. Jerking fans around has got to stop.

I realize not everyone will feel the same as I do, but I hope that those who do will take a stand. I've felt jerked around and disrespected as a fan at some time or another by ALL the shows I've mentioned. If they can't be bothered to treat ALL of their talent fairly or to give their viewers quality entertainment, I can't be bothered watching their trifling shows. They all can just fuck off.

Edited April 11, 2016 by taurusrose

[C76]

Maybe NB will talk about it one day after the dust has settled.  I get the feeling she wasn't happy at all with season 2 with the Katrina shift and wanted off the show. I'm not sure if she had issues with Mison or just the writers, only she can say.

 

From what I've seen of them in interviews--and a tweet where NB rated working with TM a 20 out of 10 experience--unless he's had a drastic personality change, I'm almost a billion percent sure that TM had nothing to do with why NB wanted to leave.  

 

ETA: One thing that's bothering me is how many people have been slamming the writers via social media. I admit that I'm upset with TPTB but that's in the general sense--mainly because I'm annoyed at the person or persons responsible for mistreating NB. To be completely honest, I'm more inclined to believe that the demise of Abbie is likely the fault of a producer or network executive--not solely the show's writers.

 

Also, nothing that appears on our screens comes as a result of a program's writers typing whatever they feel like, and it being produced. Their work is vetted and often dictated by anyone from a program's showrunner to an executive who's never written a word of the characters' dialogue. In fact as far as I know, serious moves such as the death of a character have to be approved by the network brass.

 

I realize most of you already know this, but I needed to vent.

Edited April 12, 2016 by C76

[Three]

From what I've seen of them in interviews--and a tweet where NB rated working with TM a 20 out of 10 experience--unless he's had a drastic personality change, I'm almost a billion percent sure that TM had nothing to do with why NB wanted to leave.  

 

ETA: One thing that's bothering me is how many people have been slamming the writers via social media. I admit that I'm upset with TPTB but that's in the general sense--mainly because I'm annoyed at the person or persons responsible for mistreating NB. To be completely honest, I'm more inclined to believe that the demise of Abbie is likely the fault of a producer or network executive--not solely the show's writers.

 

Also, nothing that appears on our screens comes as a result of a program's writers typing whatever they feel like, and it being produced. Their work is vetted and often dictated by anyone from a program's showrunner to an executive who's never written a word of the characters' dialogue. In fact as far as I know, serious moves such as the death of a character have to be approved by the network brass.

 

I realize most of you already know this, but I needed to vent.

 

But... but... I need someone to hate. Not a social media user, although I will checkout an account if interested. But I have been snarky at the writers on here. I think there are a lot of people on the production side that have been complicit in this clusterfuck. I know writers do not have creative control or free reign but I'm not prepared to give them a free pass either. But I do respect your respect for the writers.

[Sparger Springs]

In a word....yes.  They wanted to attract the the Star Wars/Firefly/Dr. Who-type fanboys and they didn't think Nicole was the girl to do it.  Thus, we got the ever-corseted Katrina and Boobsy Ross.  I guess nobody explained to them that whole bird in the hand thing......... or the enduring sex appeal of Lt. Uhura.

I was just thinking today that Nicole would have been a better Lt Uhura instead of Zoe Saldana. 

[tennisgurl]

A big problem, I think, is that show runners, for all their love of Twitter and meeting with fans, just do not get the fact that what they put on our screens have consequences. They do not get that, when you pull shit like this, people are not going to just follow along anymore. The internet has become the Wild West, where rules do not exist, and justice is in the style of a kind of virtual frontier justice. And its not like the internet is some collection of weirdoes in their moms basement anymore. These people include powerful critics in their number, people who have the power to influence ratings, and networks. They cannot do bullshit like this, and then just expect everything to be smooth sailing. 

[Sparger Springs]

What went wrong. In a word I don't think they liked the fans they had. Instead of trying to build onto their existent fan base they shit on them and ran most of the original fans away. I guess they wanted the precious 18-49 year old white male viewership. I guess that's why we kept getting white women in corsets with their boobs up to their chins. Somehow they didn't' take the bait. Maybe if you tried to write a compelling story you could've gotten your precious white males and kept the original fans of the show. Some shows actually grow in viewership because of the quality. SH couldn't sustain the quality past season 1.

 

I wasn't exactly a Ichabbie Shipper. If it happened fine if not, oh well, not surprised.  I was watching the last few episodes thinking do it or don't as far as the Ichiabbie relationship goes. They  baited the few fans they had left to get views  If you don't want a couple in a relationship don't have them giving each other goo goo eyes and feeding each other. 

 

I think they thought if they teased the relationship social media would go nuts and lots of old viewers would return. They were wrong as usual.

 

When they killed Moloch and made Headless an emo teenager and brought on the struggle witch that  was the beginning of the end. I thought every season or 1.5 seasons a new horseman should've appeared. The final and last season of the show should've been all 4 horsemen wrecking havoc.  I don't think they ever had a coherent plan. It could've been epic. Instead we got senior citizens teenagers mad because his daddy died before he was born. Headless horseman moping around the worst witch ever. Headless was death, death doesn't need a love interest. 

 

Maybe and I  seriously doubt it, they will all learn from this mess they made.

[C76]

But... but... I need someone to hate. Not a social media user, although I will checkout an account if interested. But I have been snarky at the writers on here. I think there are a lot of people on the production side that have been complicit in this clusterfuck. I know writers do not have creative control or free reign but I'm not prepared to give them a free pass either. But I do respect your respect for the writers.

 

LOL

 

Thank you for respecting my respect. ;) My Twitter observations have been interesting. I'm ok with the show getting criticized to kingdom come over what happened. But once people start cursing at individual show staffers, in theory, I understand why they're mad...Meanwhile, in reality I want to say,"Wait. You don't know exactly who did what..."

[PaisleyPark]

I thought every season or 1.5 seasons a new horseman should've appeared. The final and last season of the show should've been all 4 horsemen wrecking havoc.

HONESTLY!!!!   I mean!!!!  How hard could it be?!?!  I just don't understand why it was so difficult for the writers to write stories that stayed on track with what the show was supposed to initially be about!!!!  What the hell?!?!

[Julia]

The funny thing is, I've been an outlier here all along. I didn't want them to go there with Crane and Mills because I didn't think the people who wrote Ichabod/Katrina, /Betsy and /Zoey were good enough writers to pull it off in any way that wouldn't make me cringe.

I think the larger problem is that showrunners think of themselves as celebrities, trotting over to Ausiello every week to talk about the totally compelling subtext they didn't manage to put on the screen or how the network wouldn't let them tell their story.

And, just, stop. I don't give a rat's ass about your subtext or your mental throughline or your myth arc. I want forty minutes of being told a good story. If that story is informed by your myth arc or your totally compelling subtext or the inspiration you gleaned by entering your latest grocery store receipt into an upgoer five engine, I will be politely interested to hear about it afterwards.

OTOH, If you don't feel like it's your job to give me anything to watch until point B, I am not with you on the journey to point B, even if point B is the lollipop land of mystic unicorns, which it never, ever is.

Geez, remember when celebrity TV producers became celebrity TV producers by putting all the good lines in the mouths of their characters? That was nice. Can we have that?

Edited April 12, 2016 by Julia