S10.E06: Ask Jeeves

[Julia]

Sure, we got the obligatory dig at his intelligence - as always - that made me roll my eyes but at least he wasn`t written dumb and unknowing to warrant it.

It's interesting to me to see how people react to Dean. He's always seemed to me to be taking advantage of the fact that people add up his signifiers (didn't really get to pursue an education, in a perfect world would be a mechanic, which inexplicably codes to some folks who pay mechanics lots of money to fix their cars as a low-rent job) and underestimate him.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Julia

[SueB]

 

It's interesting to me to see how people react to Dean. He's always seemed to me to be taking advantage of the fact that people add up his signifiers (didn't really get to pursue an education, in a perfect world would be a mechanic, which inexplicably codes to some folks who pay mechanics lots of money to fix their cars as a low-rent job) and underestimate him.

It's one of my favorite things he does -- plays "dumb" and then outsmarts.  Which leads to an observation about Olivia: she did a good job of playing "frightened little maid" to keep everyone off her scent.

So I re-watched tonight and enjoyed it much better. I think it was the original sense of too-slow from a pacing perspective.  I think watching the first time I was anxious for more action.  Knowing where it was going, I was able to pick up on other tidbits and found it improved on re-watch. For me personally, the two best scenes were still the boys in the parking lot and the "Dean gets his kill on" moments. But other bits:

Heddy- she was really funny.  I think she got grouped in with Beverly but Heddy was pretty bright and I liked her with "that explains the dust".

Beverly - she was awful. In addition to being a horrific "horny cougar" trope, she was just ...dumb

Amber - another non-character, but in good keeping with Clue the movie, so...okay.

Nash - I liked how his hand shook when he had the gun, the guy did a better job of being a loser than Beverly but not quite up to Heddy's standard

Phillip - I had NO IDEA that was "Roy Le Grange" from Faith until I read his name on Super-wiki. I think he's lost weight and did a good job of playing a completely different person.

Olivia - I thought she played the part well

Clown College Collete - I enjoyed her little scene where she was lovingly picking out clothes for Bunnie.  But girlfriend, fake pearls is soooo not worth getting killed for.

 

- The Clown College Collete was a good running gag. Almost better than the weapons of Clue because it was more subtle. 

- I didn't pick up the point of the Knight and Dean peering into it until after someone pointed it out. But then it became interesting.

- As mentioned by others elsewhere, Jared did an outstanding job of looking terrified when Dean started unloading into Olivia.

- The music was fun.

- The CGI transition with the car... there's a coolness there but I'm not quite sold on it yet.  I hope they don't overdo that effect.

- Finally, I like that they played up the class issue again. It's been too long since our blue collar heroes got to save some white collar bums. 

[rue721]

- Finally, I like that they played up the class issue again. It's been too long since our blue collar heroes got to save some white collar bums.

 

I thought how they kept whispering "WASPs" was also a joke about the "thing" of people lowering their voices to say that someone's black or Jewish or something. I thought a lot of that stuff was funny, I also laughed at the one woman scoffing that they were driving "an American made" and that argument about whether a specific yacht actually counted as a yacht, and the brothers' debate over whether they should be wearing a suits. Oh, and how the guys were irritated that everything was a cheap knockoff, like the stainless steel silverware and the key covered in rhinestones. And how they kept trying to call out the family for being ridiculous stereotypes, Dean especially seemed like he was becoming just incredulous, but the family kept ignoring them and going on in their OTT way -- that felt meta-ish without going full-on meta, which I liked.

 

Glad to hear that people are thinking that their discomfort at being objectified and salivated over was probably supposed to be about the guys feeling out of their element and kind of preyed upon, and not about the women being too old or too unattractive, especially since both of them looked to not be much/any older than the guys and are pretty much as "conventionally attractive" as anyone gets.

 

The writers don't have the nerve to do more than tease the audience about the effect of the mark. It's just going to make me dislike the character if they have him behave this way and then clam up and claim there's nothing wrong, as if shooting multiple bullets into a young woman's body is just a normal thing to do.

 

I don't think that Dean's blood lust gets up for women especially. If anything, I would think he has a problem with men, since that ultra-disturbing "look at me, bitch" vampire kill was a man, and when he was sent to kill Lester's wife he killed Lester instead (and specifically for Lester's double standards I guess?), and because when he was a demon and killing pretty much for his own jollies, he was constantly picking fights with men (weirdly over women, though), like how he attacked that waitress's ex rather than the waitress, and he attacked the bouncer rather than the dancer at the strip club.

 

Still, I agree, it's a disturbing image to see him empty a clip into a young woman's body (and call it target practice). Even if she's really a young female shifter (half-human though?) instead of a young female human, and his blood lust is often directed at men, I do find it to be a pretty dark image even just based on the *image.* I think it's meant to be disturbing, and we're supposed to understand why Sam is disturbed by it, too (just like he was disturbed when he saw Dean's vamp kill -- he asked Dean about that one, too). I think what was important about that last conversation wasn't so much that Dean deflected and didn't know what to say (because what could he have said in any case, really) but that Sam called attention to it. The point of that was probably to highlight to the audience that it really *was* meant to be disturbing, and also that Sam had noticed, was disturbed, and was willing to call Dean out on it (which he did similarly back when the MoC started being a problem last season).

 

It's definitely not as dark as a lot of other shows, but Supernatural is a CW show and the audience these days seem to be mostly young girls... not really expecting anything legitimately dark tbh.

 

I think that the execution hasn't been very dark, but on the other hand, the implications of a lot of what they're saying/doing *are* legitimately dark imo. Like how the monsters they're hunting keep explaining how they got that way, and they've been fairly sympathetic stories -- Kate's sister would have died if Kate hadn't bitten her, this shifter woman was imprisoned for her whole life (on Bobby's say-so). I think that the monsters' stories are pretty directly equivalent to Demon!Dean talking about how they were brainwashed and basically forced into this path, too. I think the show is really underlining the issue of, what really is the difference between the hunters and what they hunt?

 

Also, I watched the last few episodes of S2 the other night, and I was thinking about how in What Is and What Should Never Be, Dean's wish is that his mother never died, and then in the finale, his "ask" in the deal with the Crossroads Demon is that Sam hadn't died. It made me think about how the time they'd spent hunting together up until then could be a wish-fulfillment fantasy in the same way that the suburban utopia with Mary was a wish-fulfillment fantasy (I don't mean literally, I mean metaphorically, like those were "the good old days" that they didn't realize were the good old days as they were happening). That made me wonder about Dean becoming a demon, especially since apparently his soul got twisted and became demonic while he was here on earth rather than in hell.

 

In S3 he had that nightmarish vision of himself as a demon that told him "this is what you'll become," which is a lot of why I do find the idea of Dean becoming a demon to be actually pretty dark -- that was apparently his worst fear, the worst thing that could happen to him. Maybe his life as a demon was the life he'd have had if the one thing he wished in his heart of hearts would *never* happen did happen (he became a monster/demon) just like his life in WIWSNB was the life he imagined he'd have had if the one thing he wished (at that time) in his heart of hearts wouldn't have happened didn't happen. So, that Demon!Dean's life and his regular human life are practically identical is actually what's so dark about it. His darkest-fear world and his normal-life world are virtually identical. That also made me wonder about the world they live in, that they consider normal, actually being their hell. (Again, metaphorically, though).

 

I was thinking about what Dean was doing as a demon, and tbh I think the darkest action he took during that time was to set Cole on the path to become a hunter (by revealing he was a demon, making Cole think that it was a demon that had killed his parent, and then letting him go -- and he said afterward that it wasn't merciful). What's dark about that to me is that it made it seem like Dean thought being a hunter is a fate worse than death, that being steered into becoming a hunter is akin to being sent to hell. And Dean did become a demon through hunting (by going after the MoC and also by basically proving himself to Cain by demonstrating his prowess as a hunter in front of him), and after he got the MoC he was trying to slake his blood lust through hunting, and apparently that was how the MoC twisted his soul into a demon. It wasn't even his time in hell that made him into a demon, it was his time as a hunter. Which also makes me think that, to Dean, being a hunter is akin to being in hell. ETA2:  I don't know if it gets much darker than to think that Dean's life is pretty-much-literally a living hell. And that he got led by the nose there by the people he respected and trusted most, like John and Bobby, etc, and that he led Sam and Cole by the nose into that living hell, too (obviously, leading Sam into the pit wasn't malicious, though leading Cole into it was).

 

Anyway, I think that the idea that, while you truly believed that you were fighting the good fight, you were being twisted into exactly what you hated and feared most, is legitimately dark. But that's also something that kids aren't going to fear or even really think about, and it's not going to create any issues with the censors.

 

ETA:

Almost forgot! One of my favorite things was that Dean has apparently kept up with Tori & Dean and wasn't even apologetic about it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

and that after he got the MoC he was trying to slake his blood lust through hunting, and apparently that was how the MoC twisted his soul into a demon. Which also makes me think that, to Dean, being a hunter is akin to being in hell. It wasn't even his time in hell that made him into a demon, it was his time as a hunter.

 

 

I don't really understand this.  We don't know exactly what twisted Dean into a demon. We only know that Dean was affected by the Mark and then when he touched the Blade he became addicted...apparently (I thought it was weakly portrayed overall in the show) and that he died with the Mark on his arm and then was resurrected when Crowley put the blade in his hand. I don't think Dean's hunting had anything to do with him becoming a demon because that would mean Dean's entire life as a hunter was setting him up to be a demon and I just don't think that is at all what the show wants us to believe.  No way.

 

I do think Dean becoming his own worst nightmare is that darkest moment int he history of the show. But what he has done as a demon or even with the MoC IMO was not nearly that dark. 

 

There is really only one thing the show could have Dean do that would make him irredeemable and that would be to commit rape.  Even killing Sam IMO would have a way back for him and some that don't like Sam might even cheer him for doing it. 

 

So to me the actual turning him into a demon is horrible and awful and was thisclose to swearing off the show.  I love Jensen's work as demon!Dean so I want more of it. Yet I would rather Dean have died than be turned into a demon on the principle of Dean had always remained human so I mourned/mourn the loss of human!Dean more than anything:(:(. 

 

But to this point IMO he hasn't done anything worse as a demon than he did as a human so it make his demonity sort of....less impactful.

 

I

[SueB]

rue...VERY interesting comments.  I'm going to have to think about those. I agree with you though....setting Cole on the path was a BAD THING. 

 

Important sailing bit of data, Heedy's boat? A catfish?  Like 14 ft long. It's a beginner boat and no one would EVER make it out of mahogany. :)

 

Note: those are 3 tween-size or younger girls.

Edited November 20, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

rue...VERY interesting comments.  I'm going to have to think about those. I agree with you though....setting Cole on the path was a BAD THING. 

 

Important sailing bit of data, Heedy's boat? A catfish?  Like 14 ft long. It's a beginner boat and no one would EVER make it out of mahogany. :)

 

It's a Sunfish, and I smiled when they brought it up, because my Dad had a Sunfish when I was a kid. It was one step up from the Scorpion he had before the Sunfish. He used to take us sailing on it when we were kids... and in Mass. you don't want to fall out of the boat, because the water is cold even in the summer. It was a popular enough sailboat in our area when I was growing up that there was a Sunfish club that my Dad belonged to, and they'd have races and get-togethers and such.

 

And yes, it was definitely not mahogany.

[Pete Martell]

Now this bothered me too. I'm not someone who finds male violence "hot" especially when directed at women. Dean shooting a young female's body over and over was repugnant to me. But that's just me. Even Charles Manson found a bride so obviously some women like cold killers. But since the show doesn't have the guts to actually make Dean evil I don't know why they even bother going down this road. The writers don't have the nerve to do more than tease the audience about the effect of the mark. It's just going to make me dislike the character if they have him behave this way and then clam up and claim there's nothing wrong, as if shooting multiple bullets into a young woman's body is just a normal thing to do.

 

I have a feeling the show is not intentionally having his bloodlust triggered by murdering women. I'm sure if you asked them, they'd be surprised. It's just that when women are repeatedly put into this role, and women have no major role on the show in general, things like that stand out more to me.

 

People always say if a woman was in charge, this wouldn't happen, but the same stuff happened with Sera Gamble. I think it's just something endemic to the show. Either that or it's Bob Singer.

I'm not sure that is the case at all. IIRC Deans first kill after the MoC was the male werewolf then the thinman.

 

It's the way the scene is done, mostly. With Abaddon we saw him stabbing her over and over until Sam yelled at him. With the shifter he shot her over and over and we got the big closeup. Again I don't think they're saying it's because of women (or monsters in female forms), it's just something that sticks with me, mostly because the show has so few women in the first place.

[SueB]

 

People always say if a woman was in charge, this wouldn't happen, but the same stuff happened with Sera Gamble. I think it's just something endemic to the show. Either that or it's Bob Singer.

Gamble was WORSE IMO.  I do think it's possible that Singer is the common thread.  I have many thoughts on this topic so I'm going to motor over to TPTB thread and rant a bit. 

[catrox14]

I have a feeling the show is not intentionally having his bloodlust triggered by murdering women. I'm sure if you asked them, they'd be surprised. It's just that when women are repeatedly put into this role, and women have no major role on the show in general, things like that stand out more to me.

People always say if a woman was in charge, this wouldn't happen, but the same stuff happened with Sera Gamble. I think it's just something endemic to the show. Either that or it's Bob Singer.

It's the way the scene is done, mostly. With Abaddon we saw him stabbing her over and over until Sam yelled at him. With the shifter he shot her over and over and we got the big closeup. Again I don't think they're saying it's because of women (or monsters in female forms), it's just something that sticks with me, mostly because the show has so few women in the first place.

I understand the imagery is bothersome and the show has killed off female characters but for me the context that informs Deans issues with Abbadon matters more than the imagery of Abaddon wearing a female meatsuit.

I don't have a problem with what he did to Abaddon because she molested him physically, and essentially sexually, and promised to possess him and make him do all kinds of terrible things to humans. That was a terrifying scene in Devil May Care and Dean sure never forgot that threat. It was a personal and professional vendetta against Abaddon.

I thought that combined with the bloodlust is why Dean unleashed on Abaddon. It was Abaddon he wanted to slaughter not Abaddon's meatsuit because it was a female. IMO he would have done the same thing if Abaddon had been in a male meatsuit.

He wanted to rip apart Gadreel and he did beat the crap out of him and wanted to kill him but he only stopped himself because he knew they needed info but he did quite a number on him anyway. He decided to leave Gadreel in a circle of holy oil for eternity rather than kill him which was more cruel than killing him, because Gadreel wanted to die. But Dean struggled to not kill him.

In Blade Runners IMO the only reason Dean didn't do more to Magnus or try and kill Sam or Crowley is that Sam talked him down and again that was the first time he touched the Blade so the desire and NEED to kill was not yet as strong as by the time he killed Abaddon.

As a demon he was shown being incredibly violent against men and not women. He was skeevy and too handsy with the stripper but he was violent with men..

To me, if the shifter had been a male IMO he would have unloaded his clip in the same way.

I realize this is a big MMV thing but I don't think the show is trying to say anything like Dean finds women to be something he wants to really hurt because they are women. I do not believe that Dean is a misogynist nor do I think the show wants us to think that of him. I think he hates monsters and demons and have loathes himself as usual and maybe even moreso since he was a demon.

Thinking further I wonder if he saw himself in the shifter just like when he killed then shifter wearing his face and when he said it felt good to kill the leviathan that wore his face. This shifter didn't wear his face but maybe what was triggered was his own self-loathing.

Edited November 20, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I do this all the time actually - I never let any inanimate object get away with hurting me - but I don`t classify this as dark. And I get that this was cathartic for Dean but just for me, it`s not remotely in the neighbourhood of "dark" or "scary" generally speaking. Like I said, maybe I got desensitized with other shows I watch where ripping someone`s throat out and then driving around with their corpse in your car is met with a weary "oh, come on, not this drinking bender stuff again" and then swiftly forgotten.

 

But SPN for me is like the kiddie pool of scary and I just can`t get, you know, scared by it anymore. Not for years actually. So I see what the writers are going for, what they mean to convey in the scenes but I can`t go there emotionally. Dean has never done anything going over maybe a 5 on my darkness scale (if say 25 was "this is dark shit" and 1 was "fluffy, cuddle bunnies"). Not as a human, not as a demon, not with the MOC. And judging by the writing he never will.  

 

In fairness, I`m the person who cheered back in Angel the show when the lead character let a bunch of his lawyer enemies get slaughtered and just walked away. Or who went "why? no. why?" when the lead character in Arrow vowed to stop killing people in vigilante justice. 

 

That storyline was one of the reasons I gave up on Angel. Not because I was all that upset by what he did, but by their just having the scene for shock value and not caring about any followup, instead moving on to everyone cooing over Whedon's latest geek girl wet dream, Fred.

 

I was worried they'd have demon Dean do something terrible for similar shock value reasons. I'm relieved they never did.

 

I don't think the show's ever excelled at that type of moment. In the past they used to like to go for the gore aspect (sometimes they still do). I was watching "Jump the Shark" a few days ago and remembered the endless Sam torture sequence. It always throws me out of episodes, as it seems so gratuitous and like it's there just to shock us (it's the main reason I don't enjoy the Christmas episode as much as I should). I think the show used to do well at things like jump scares, or surprises, and at psychological horror. 

 

Even in the last few seasons, as the show's become much safer, more candy-coated (even decapitations seems placid now), I think they can do that type of psychological trauma right. The moments where we get some glimpses into Dean's mind can be very frightening, because of all he's gone through. Last season, they showed us how hollowed out this life had made him, his father had made him, his choices and the consequences, to the point where at the end of the season he truly was frightening, as was his death, which felt like a sick, slow thud.

 

I'm interested in seeing how they will write that this season without just seeming like more of the same, and how Jensen will play it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Pete Martell

[jelaine]

I think Cole becoming a hunter was an unintended consequence of Dean's beat down.  Dean thought Cole would crawl home and lick his wounds and torture himself with thoughts of having his ass handed to him by the monster that killed his father and there wasn't and wouldn't be a damn thing he could have done to beat Dean. Leaving him alive without even the hope of avenging his father's death was the merciless thing Dean did, not setting Cole up to become a hunter.

[Morrigan2575]

Rewatching and a couple of things I missed first time through. Dean tells Sam to keep an eye on Mrs. Peacock and Col. Mustard...really with the way Dash was dressed he's totally Professor Plum. Also, Sam says they'll never get past Detective Friendly (when Dean wants to get the EMF detectectors) pretty sure the cop in the Clue movie was Officer Friendly.

Oh and the music when Dean is searching the house...either from Clue the movie or Death by Numbers?

Hah...Wadsworth was the butler in Clue...OMG Clown College Colette. ..she was the maid in the movie...LOL. These Clue references are too funny.

More thoughts, Olivia looks so much like Kelly Ripa, it's freaking me out.

Also nice to see the Shifter actually sheds it's skin, instead of whatever was going on in that spinoff

Edited November 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Demented Daisy]

Actually, Colleen Camp played Yvette the maid in the movie.  I think they probably smashed the two names together to get Collette.

 

I'm not sure if you're talking about the cop who was murdered or Howard Hesseman at the end.  Regardless, neither was ever given a name, though Howard Hesseman was referred to as the Chief by Wadsworth in the first ending.

[Morrigan2575]

Actually, Colleen Camp played Yvette the maid in the movie. I think they probably smashed the two names together to get Collette.

I'm not sure if you're talking about the cop who was murdered or Howard Hesseman at the end. Regardless, neither was ever given a name, though Howard Hesseman was referred to as the Chief by Wadsworth in the first ending.

Crap, I could have sworn the called him Officer Friendly in the movie. I probably combined the Colleen/Yvette in my head...I remembered the actress more than the character since she was in the Police Academy Movies too.

Aww crap, now I know...The Walking Dead...Rick

Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Coxfires]

Actually, Colleen Camp played Yvette the maid in the movie.  I think they probably smashed the two names together to get Collette.

 

I'm not sure if you're talking about the cop who was murdered or Howard Hesseman at the end.  Regardless, neither was ever given a name, though Howard Hesseman was referred to as the Chief by Wadsworth in the first ending.

 

Colette is a real first name in French, actually, although pretty outdated nowadays. But I like the idea of merging the two names.

[millennium]

Another refreshing respite from the oh-so-tired Castiel/Crowley/Angel War storyline.   I never played Clue, never saw Clue, and people are always telling me to get a clue; even so I liked this episode because it was so back to basics.    My only disappointment was that Sam didn't take a roll in the hay with the Jerry Hall lookalike.   He really needs to have some fun, even if it's just meaningless sex with a hot cougar.

[Cerulean]

It drives me a little crazy that the boys didn't realize the silverware wasn't silver when they first saw it. Silver is a different color of metal than stainless... And anyway, usually the blades of knives are stainless while the handles are silver. Sam should have been using spoons!

Suspense of belief of shapeshifters- no problem. However, I just can't let this trivial cutlery issue go.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Cerulean

[catrox14]

You know that's just one more in the Dumb!Dean book. That's a really good point about them not telling the difference. 

[Pete Martell]

You know that's just one more in the Dumb!Dean book. That's a really good point about them not telling the difference. 

 

I don't think it has anything to do with dumb Dean. It was easy writing to trick the viewers. That's not on the characters, as the script never took time to say, "You're so stupid."

[Demented Daisy]

When the knife bent, I said, "Yeah, silver is soft."  Then he said it was stainless steel and I was like, "Huh?"

[catrox14]

I don't think it has anything to do with dumb Dean. It was easy writing to trick the viewers. That's not on the characters, as the script never took time to say, "You're so stupid."

It was Dean that didn't notice that the knife wasnt silver in the first place. Sure it was to fool the audience but the audience is savvy enough to remember that Dean is a smart hunter and would know silver from not silver. see s2e20.

Ever since Dean was dedemoned he has been less smart in hunting along and less physically able to fight which has bugged me to no end. And this was another example of Dean either be rusty which meh because 6 weeks of demon merriment does not make Dean a dunce. I think it's lazy writing and even if it's unintentional it still reinforces. the dumb! Dean "theme", IMO

Edited November 28, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I see your point, but I think it was mostly about trying to fool the viewers, not a commentary on Dean. This isn't a subtle show, so if it had been a failing from Dean, I think they would have had Sam bring it up.

 

I didn't even really remember or care that Dean didn't realize it wasn't real silver, and I think Dean's a pretty smart guy, so I think most viewers may have not seen it and said, "Dean's so stupid."

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[AwesomO4000]

It was Dean that didn't notice that the knife wasnt silver in the first place. Sure it was to fool the audience but the audience is savvy enough to remember that Dean is a smart hunter and would know silver from not silver. see s2e20.

 

But didn't Sam use the "silver" more than Dean did? If so it would seem to be just as much (if not more) a dumb Sam moment than a dumb Dean one.

[mertensia]

They wanted this to be a fun, Clue-like episode so the silver/stainless steel was a part of the Clue idiocy. And, just because I can, "Yep. Two corpses; everything's fine."

[mizkat]

A few thoughts: 

1) I had no idea this was supposed to be based off Clue. None. Even when they mentioned Peacock I was still, "Oh, that's nice. A Clue reference." I really thought they were paying homage to Murder She Wrote and Agatha Christie. And I've seen the movie and owned at least three sets of the game during my lifetime. After this post I'm off to find my brains and dignity. 

2) I liked it. I thought it was entertaining, even though I knew who the shifter was right away and my first thought when I saw the knives was that they weren't silver. However, I can overlook stuff like that when the journey is enjoyable. 

3) As far as the cougars--the best way to chase off a man is to be desperately desperate. I never thought Sam was turned off by their ages, but by their crazy. Dean, however, would have said, "You want me? Of COURSE you want me." Because Dean is smooth in a way Sam will never be. And someone mentioned Pamela earlier--Sam cringed a little about Pamela being so forward, too. But she it was more like forward teasing/complimenting, so he was okay with it. He definitely appreciated her appreciation of his ass.

4) I don't see Dean's killer instinct being triggered by females. It's triggered by monsters, period. If they take a female shape, too bad. 

 

This is another one I'm looking forward to rewatching. Yay, two in a row! Can't remember the last time that happened. 

[Pete Martell]

Great to see you posting here, mizkat. 

[catrox14]

This re-aired tonight and it was much better upon rewatch as are most episodes.  (Why is that? )

 

Anyway, I really liked the actor playing Dash, and I would not mind at all him coming back for another appearance. I wouldn't even mind seeing him snooping around about Sam and Dean.  I don't know how SPN does  but usually there is at least one if not more guest actors in individual episodes that acquit themselves very well( with occasional missteps).

 

Clown College Collette is still a great gag.

 

 

Dean looking into the knights mask was humorously framed and yet remembering we learned he was a Knight of Hell makes me want to see him in action as said Knight of Hell.. I think. I say, "I think" because knowing this show I'll get what I want in the best worst most emotionally devastating way possible.  Fucking show.   Why can't I quit you?

 

ETA:  Damn Jensen. That man can shift Dean's face with one flick of his eyes like he did in the scene when he decides to unload his clip into the shifter.  He went from regular!hunter!Dean to holy crap!you are terrifying!Dean. And it's glorious

Edited December 24, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Someone posted this on Facebook and holy Chuck!  It's gotta be the angle or something, right?

 

[catrox14]

Wait. That can't be real.

[Altered Reality]

Demented Daisy and catrox14, it might be the angle, but it could be accurate.  To me her hands look to be the same size as mine, more or less (that is to say, pretty small).  And it's always seemed to me that Jared has fairly large hands (to go with his general size) so there could be that big a difference.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm thinking it's a forced perspective thing.  Yes, her hands are definitely smaller than Jared's, but I think her hand is also angled away from the camera.  Plus, his fingers are splayed, hers are together, and so on and so forth.

[Occasional Hope]

Just seen this ep in the UK, and I adored it - one of my favourites ever, I think.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Another good ep.  What?  Two in a row?  Oh, show, don't get my hopes up...  Anyway:

• I liked that they had to go old school to catch the monster.  And I liked the mystery of it all.  Liked the campy Clue references also (btw - that was my favorite board game as a kid.)
• The mature ladies flirting with the boys was funny.  Sam so uncomfortable (but WHY?  I mean, come on, they weren't that much older and they were attractive ladies.  That was the only part that made me scratch my head.  I had to chalk it up to his general awkwardness with women.)  Dean seemed like he'd be all into it though.  You go, Dean.  
• Again with the 'You have a choice whether or not to be a monster' speech to Olivia just made me want to hurl heavy objects at my TV.  I'm still not over their attitudes in the last werewolf episode with Kate.  (And that was on top of the 'the line between what we hunt and us isn't so clear, is it?' bit from Deanmon a couple eps ago.)  Bottom line: I don't like it when the boys try to get on some high moral horse, cause they certainly got no room to talk.
• And back to a bit of the brother angst moment at the end.  So not a BM scene, but a BAM scene.  Yeah, I do feel like I've been hit over the head with a hammer when I watch this show sometimes.

Still, overall, a good enjoyable episode and one I could definitely watch again.  

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Another good ep.  What?  Two in a row?  Oh, show, don't get my hopes up...

This show, I tell ya! Just when you think you're out, they suck you back in...am I right? ;)

29 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Again with the 'You have a choice whether or not to be a monster' speech to Olivia just made me want to hurl heavy objects at my TV.  I'm still not over their attitudes in the last werewolf episode with Kate.  (And that was on top of the 'the line between what we hunt and us isn't so clear, is it?' bit from Deanmon a couple eps ago.)  Bottom line: I don't like it when the boys try to get on some high moral horse, cause they certainly got no room to talk.

Yeah, I get why they're going down this road right now, I just prefer my Supernatural to be less preachy.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just prefer my Supernatural to be less preachy.

Amen, sister.  Amen.  ;)

Edited September 1, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[pixelcat]

I just watched this last night!  Always think "oh no not that episode" but then end up enjoying it a lot more than I expect.  Loved the music when Dean was creeping around the house, and the perfect in sync Impala door closing at the end.  Baby fits right in with all the other cars!

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Liked the campy Clue references also (btw - that was my favorite board game as a kid.)

Did you catch the Clue board game stuffed in the attic as Dean walked in?  I also was making a note as to who was picking up each weapon.  Dean: lead pipe, rope, wrench, candlestick.  Sam:  knife.  Dash/Olivia:  revolver.  I also played it a lot with my brother growing up, I was always Ms Scarlet and he was Prof Plum.

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The mature ladies flirting with the boys was funny.  Sam so uncomfortable (but WHY?  I mean, come on, they weren't that much older and they were attractive ladies.  That was the only part that made me scratch my head.  I had to chalk it up to his general awkwardness with women.)  Dean seemed like he'd be all into it though.  You go, Dean.  

I think because the ladies were being so aggressive in their affection?  He's probably not used to women throwing themselves at him.  But Dean, yeah.  Agree with you there, his reaction said it all.  Sam playing cards with them was great (anyone know what card game that was?), as was his forced interaction with them later on the couch to see if they were shapeshifters.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just prefer my Supernatural to be less preachy.

Preach it!

I really want to know how they explained who shot Olivia and why she was shot 8 times when the cops showed up.

Edited September 1, 2016 by pixelcat

[Dobian]

I really liked the hokey background music when Dean was exploring the house.  It really was like watching an old episode of Murder She Wrote.  I couldn't help but think that the two cougars would have been funnier (and creepier) if this episode was from season 1 nine years ago, trying to sink their claws into young Sam and Dean lol.

[rue721]

On 1/20/2015 at 11:30 AM, Altered Reality said:

Demented Daisy and catrox14, it might be the angle, but it could be accurate.  To me her hands look to be the same size as mine, more or less (that is to say, pretty small).  And it's always seemed to me that Jared has fairly large hands (to go with his general size) so there could be that big a difference.

I noticed this scene during the episode, and hilariously, the women are actually chatting in the background about how big Sam's hands are, in the ummm context of what that might mean about other parts of his anatomy.

It was actually pretty funny. I was surprised at how funny this episode was altogether. To be honest, by the end of the episode I even liked pretty much every member of that ridiculous family (especially the one blond lady with the shoulder-length hair).

I think that it might have made more sense, though, if the show had made more of an effort to differentiate between the Winchesters and the family. Culturally, I mean. Because the Winchesters made a couple funny remarks about how maybe the family's weirdness was because they were WASPs -- and that sorta worked...but aren't the Winchesters WASPs, too?

I think that it was supposed to seem like Sam and Dean were SUPER out of their element. I think that Sam being completely overwhelmed by the two ladies who kept flirting with him like he was the last man on earth was part of that. Like the behavior was supposed to be SUPER foreign to him and really bewildering. But I think that sort of fell flat, because the show didn't really play up the "culture clash" so much as made the family very silly and weird.

But anyway. I think this episode was surprisingly a lot of fun. The casting was genius, there were a lot of funny lines/situations, and the investigation was really engaging. I think this ridiculous, satirical, one-off turned out better than it had any right to, tbh!

As for my favorite scene -- I loved when everyone was gathered in the bathroom over the dead guy with his head in the toilet. Such a goofy Agatha Christie-style "drawing room scene."

[DittyDotDot]

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

.but aren't the Winchesters WASPs, too?

Uh, well, they are white and I guess one could say they are Protestant, but doesn't the term actually refer to the white privileged? As in prep schools and trust funds? 

Edited September 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Uh, well, they are white and I guess one could say they are Protestant, but doesn't the term actually refer to white privilege? As in prep schools and trust funds? 

Honestly, I don't know? I mean, that could definitely be the case.

Although at this point in the show, the guys WERE acting pretty bougy ;)

My point, though, is that I think some of the jokes could have landed better if the episode overall had focused on the "fish out of water"/"culture clash" element a little more, and the thing of this particular family being really wacky a little less.

I mean, I'm fine with the family being incredibly wacky, I thought they were a lot of fun. But just as a practical issue, a lot of the jokes seemed like they were trying to play up the "culture clash" element, and IMO those jokes didn't quite land -- because nothing else about the script was playing up the "culture clash" element as much, so the context for those jokes wasn't just established enough. I'm lumping in jokes about the two women coming onto Sam and Dean relentlessly in there. I think they were meant to be playing up some WASP stereotype, but what it was, I have no idea. And aside from the practical issue...I like that element of the guys being completely out of place in this completely bizarre ~manor house~, so I think the "fish out of water" thing would have been fun to play up more any case!

Although maybe they had to have the guys fit in SOMEWHAT. I mean, just to play up the whole Cozy Mystery aspect of it all. Agatha Christie's Poirot and Jessica Fletcher and all those detectives didn't stick out TOO much in the weirdo communities they were investigating in, after all.

Anyway, I actually have no idea if the Winchesters are WASPs by any definition, come to think of it. Weren't they getting dropped off at a Catholic priest's as kids (Father Jim)? Actually, thinking about it more, my best guess would maybe be that the family is Catholic. But who knows what religions even exist at all in the context of this show's universe. The only one that I remember being explicitly named is Judaism.

[catrox14]

WASP has typically been a term reserved for upper class, influential white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants. I've never heard it used to describe middle or low income whites who just happen to be Protestant. So to me, in no way are Sam and Dean WASPs

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think they were meant to be playing up some WASP stereotype, but what it was, I have no idea.

I think they were playing up the stereotype that these people had so much money, they had no real worries and their lives were wasted on trivial crap. As a result were basically bored and they were all doing kinda silly things to add excitement to their lives.

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I like that element of the guys being completely out of place in this completely bizarre ~manor house~, so I think the "fish out of water" thing would have been fun to play up more any case!

The only problem with the idea of culture shock, for me, is Sam and Dean are basically con men. They can't really have culture shock since the whole premise is they can blend in just about anywhere long enough to get the job done. I'm not sure it would've worked for me if they'd played this angle up, but I'd be interested in seeing if would. Hard to say about some of these things until I see it.

I'm not sure the show was actually going for fish-out-of-water for Sam and Dean, but were basically just going for the whole Agatha Christie locked-in-a-mansion-with-a-murderer-for-the-weekend vibe. But maybe they were and it just didn't land. I think they thought they'd just have some fun snarking on the over-privileged while they ran around a mansion looking for a murderer. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think they were playing up the stereotype that these people had so much money, they had no real worries and their lives were wasted on trivial crap. As a result were basically bored and they were all doing kinda silly things to add excitement to their lives.

The episode made a big point that they didn't actually have any money, though. Like how they were debating who had the best yacht...only they were talking about a Sunfish, which is apparently just little one or two person sailboat and not a "rich person" thing after all. And Sam and Dean found out that the key Bobby had been bequeathed was covered in rhinestones rather than jewels and the silverware was just stainless steel. And iIrc the butler even flat out said they didn't actually have any money.

I mean, I think that the joke was that they were the epitome of Old Money -- including being totally out of money. (LOL)

But I mean, in that sense, I agree that even their "poverty" was a kind of Those Silly Rich People! joke, and that the episode was full of those kinds of jokes. Which I actually liked. I mean, the jokes were goofy, but I was down.

37 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only problem with the idea of culture shock, for me, is Sam and Dean are basically con men. They can't really have culture shock since the whole premise is they can blend in just about anywhere long enough to get the job done.

I hear you, but this particular episode made a big point of how they were finding it especially hard to blend in.

They kept giving each other freaked out looks whenever they were around the family, and then when they were alone and talking about how wacky everyone was, their explanation was, "WASPs, man! I tell you!"

The butler and the family themselves also brought up how Sam and Dean "weren't their kind," albeit that the butler was complimentary about that and the way that the family brought it up was by doing things like commenting on their "American made" car.

I think that the show was definitely also trying to play up the angle that the women in the family saw them as...I dunno, basically like ~red-blooded and blue-collar~ sex toys. Like out of a porn. The ~sexy plumber~ who comes by to fix the lady of the house's *cough* pipes. Like, this is what I think the women were supposedly seeing when they saw Sam:

Which I think is totally fine as an idea, and actually landed somewhat -- except I think the episode should have emphasized that there was a culture clash between the Winchesters and the family, to give more context to the jokes and make them make more sense.

Not for some deep/theoretical reason, but for the very practical reason that a lot of people (me included) missed some of those jokes the first time around, and were saying things like, "is Sam just really terrible with women? Why was he hating them so much?" It's only in retrospect that it even really occurred to me that the issue was supposed to be a culture clash and Sam being like WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!! and feeling very fish out of water. At the time, I was mostly confused as why he was so awkward about a couple women trying to get the hook up, and now I'm like, "Ohhhhh so they were eager to slum it with him! THAT'S why he was so uncomfortable. OK, I get it now!"

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

WASP has typically been a term reserved for upper class, influential white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants. I've never heard it used to describe middle or low income whites who just happen to be Protestant. So to me, in no way are Sam and Dean WASPs

I dunno, I've heard it used more broadly than that. But honestly, who knows? If the consensus is that it just applies to rich people, I can go with that.

Sorry if I offended anybody.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The episode made a big point that they didn't actually have any money, though. Like how they were debating who had the best yacht...only they were talking about a Sunfish, which is apparently just little one or two person sailboat and not a "rich person" thing after all. And Sam and Dean found out that the key Bobby had been bequeathed was covered in rhinestones rather than jewels and the silverware was just stainless steel. And iIrc the butler even flat out said they didn't actually have any money.

I mean, I think that the joke was that they were the epitome of Old Money -- including being totally out of money. (LOL)

But I mean, in that sense, I agree that even their "poverty" was a kind of Those Silly Rich People! joke, and that the episode was full of those kinds of jokes. Which I actually liked. I mean, the jokes were goofy, but I was down.

I hear you, but this particular episode made a big point of how they were finding it especially hard to blend in.

They kept giving each other freaked out looks whenever they were around the family, and then when they were alone and talking about how wacky everyone was, their explanation was, "WASPs, man! I tell you!"

The butler and the family themselves also brought up how Sam and Dean "weren't their kind," albeit that the butler was complimentary about that and the way that the family brought it up was by doing things like commenting on their "American made" car.

I think that the show was definitely also trying to play up the angle that the women in the family saw them as...I dunno, basically like ~red-blooded and blue-collar~ sex toys. Like out of a porn. The ~sexy plumber~ who comes by to fix the lady of the house's *cough* pipes. Like, this is what I think the women were supposedly seeing when they saw Sam:

Which I think is totally fine as an idea, and actually landed somewhat -- except I think the episode should have emphasized that there was a culture clash between the Winchesters and the family, to give more context to the jokes and make them make more sense.

Not for some deep/theoretical reason, but for the very practical reason that a lot of people (me included) missed some of those jokes the first time around, and were saying things like, "is Sam just really terrible with women? Why was he hating them so much?" It's only in retrospect that it even really occurred to me that the issue was supposed to be a culture clash and Sam being like WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!! and feeling very fish out of water. At the time, I was mostly confused as why he was so awkward about a couple women trying to get the hook up, and now I'm like, "Ohhhhh so they were eager to slum it with him! THAT'S why he was so uncomfortable. OK, I get it now!"

I dunno, I've heard it used more broadly than that. But honestly, who knows? If the consensus is that it just applies to rich people, I can go with that.

Sorry if I offended anybody.

no offense taken on my part. 

Just saying that historically WASP was always applied to rich, influential white people who were not Catholic. It wouldn't apply to poor Irish or Scottish immigrants.  If someone called me a WASP I would laugh because it's just not true. I think the people in the episode were WASPy and I don't think the boys were off base with that idea. I think it's also fair to think even if they weren't WASPy in our opinion, they were in Sam and Dean's because those aren't the circles Sam and Dean run in. They might be able to con their way for a little while but they would never fit in long term.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

The episode made a big point that they didn't actually have any money, though. Like how they were debating who had the best yacht...only they were talking about a Sunfish, which is apparently just little one or two person sailboat and not a "rich person" thing after all. And Sam and Dean found out that the key Bobby had been bequeathed was covered in rhinestones rather than jewels and the silverware was just stainless steel. And iIrc the butler even flat out said they didn't actually have any money.

I'm sure they didn't have as much money as they would like, but they had a cushy lifestyle without doing anything to earn that lifestyle other than being born. They come from money, live off trust funds and generous family members like the woman who owned the house who they hoped to inherit from. They were basically leaches, as I recall. That's how I've always understood the term WASP to be used. 

However, no offense was taken by me, I was just commenting that I'd never heard it used in that context before, but I'm not an aficionado on the term or anything.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

The butler and the family themselves also brought up how Sam and Dean "weren't their kind," albeit that the butler was complimentary about that and the way that the family brought it up was by doing things like commenting on their "American made" car.

I think that the show was definitely also trying to play up the angle that the women in the family saw them as...I dunno, basically like ~red-blooded and blue-collar~ sex toys. Like out of a porn. The ~sexy plumber~ who comes by to fix the lady of the house's *cough* pipes. Like, this is what I think the women were supposedly seeing when they saw Sam:

I need to refresh my memory on the episode--I'm currently mid-S9, so it shouldn't be too long--because I can't remember, did Sam and Dean go in there as though they were one of them? Like trying to pass themselves off as rich and from money and were failing at it? I was thinking they went in there as themselves, more-or-less, and if I remember right they did just fine while there--like Dean said, they knew which fork to use.

I think if the show was trying to say Sam and Dean were out of their depth and having culture shock, they would've set up situations like they have in the past where they tried to pass themselves off as from money, but didn't know how to pick a good wine or felt awkward in a tux. Which, not only have they done before, but they're not "boys" anymore, so I'm just not sure it would work now. But like I said, I'd be interested in seeing if it could.

I think the comments about how Sam and Dean weren't one of them was the show snarking on the frivolous-rich by showing how they don't mind playing with lower classes, but would never accept those playmates as one of their own.  Basically, they're fine to sleep with, but not okay to marry. If I remember right, that's the theme that ties back to the "bastard" shapeshifter locked in the attic.

[catrox14]

The boys weren't pretending to be anyone. They gave their real names and said Bobby was  their surrogate father. The butler said they were far too good as in good people to be there because everyone else would go after jewelry left to them. They only went back after getting the pendant appraised because they wanted to know what the key was for.  Then the mystery happens yada yada. 

[rue721]

16 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I need to refresh my memory on the episode--I'm currently mid-S9, so it shouldn't be too long--because I can't remember, did Sam and Dean go in there as though they were one of them? Like trying to pass themselves off as rich and from money and were failing at it? I was thinking they went in there as themselves, more-or-less, and if I remember right they did just fine while there--like Dean said, they knew which fork to use.

I think if the show was trying to say Sam and Dean were out of their depth and having culture shock, they would've set up situations like they have in the past where they tried to pass themselves off as from money, but didn't know how to pick a good wine or felt awkward in a tux. Which, not only have they done before, but they're not "boys" anymore, so I'm just not sure it would work now. But like I said, I'd be interested in seeing if it could.

Sam and Dean were acting normal, and like catrox said, they even straight up told everybody their real names, what their relationship with Bobby was, etc. They actually weren't running a con for once! ;)

They weren't out of their depth or making faux pas or anything. They just clearly were like, this family is batshit crazy. That's how the WASP thing came up -- the guys were like "I dunno, I guess they're just WASPs?!" to try to explain to themselves why the family was acting so weird. (And that's when I was like, "What? Aren't they all WASPs?"). Sam and Dean and the family all pretty explicitly talked about how they were coming from different cultures in any case -- but whenever it was brought up, it was always pretty complimentary to the Winchesters. I think the harshest dig might have been when one character brought up that they drive an American-made car, lol.

Anyway, I think this episode was basically SPN's take on a "comedy of manners" and I think they did a pretty good job of it! But I think it could have been improved by putting a sharper point on the contrast between the family and the Winchesters (instead of basically just making the Winchesters "normal" and the family "wacky").

You know the TV show Fraiser? I'm thinking that it would have been fun to have a sharper contrast between the Sam and Dean and the WASP family similar to the sharp contrast between Niles and Fraiser and their dad.

BTW, that link has some interesting things in it that direct relate to this episode. In case the link doesn't work or is hard to get to, here are the passages I'm referring to:

Put simply, the comedy of manners is a style of comedy that reflects the life, ideals and manners of upper class society in a way that is essentially true to its traditions and philosophy. The players must strive to maintain the mask of social artifice whilst revealing to the audience what lies behind such manners. In other words it is to make:  The real artificial and the artificial real.

Characterised by

A flamboyant display of witty, blunt sexual dialogue

Boudoir intrigues

Sensual innuendos

Rakish behaviour

Conventions that governed Restoration/Comedy of Manners

Constancy in love (especially in marriage) was boring

Sex should be tempting

Love thrived on variety

Country life was considered boring

Other notable considerations

Humour was in the satiric treatment of those who allowed themselves to be deceived or who attempted to deceive others

Laughter was directed against the fop, the pretender at wit, the old trying to be young or the old man with a beautiful and youthful wife

ETA:

I think the key to why they chose the "comedy of manners"/shifter combination was:  In other words, it is to make:  The real artificial and the artificial real.

Edited September 26, 2016 by rue721
deleted irrelevant stuff I'd copied over from the link

[DittyDotDot]

And, another fun one!! That's two episodes in a row where they didn't take themselves so damn seriously...right up until the end, anyway. I know this isn't going to last very long, so I'm taking the opportunity to savor it. 

Clown College Collette for the win!

Oh, and Dean's right, Murphy is a dick. ;)

[catrox14]

Clown College Collette is one of the best running gags this show has ever done.

[bettername2come]

I love Winchesters vs. WASPs. It worked in season 8, it works here, even if I do get these two confused from time to time. "Wait, go back. He owned an island." I love that cougars consistently love Sam. Dash pointing the gun at himself all "I. Hunt. Pheasants" is far funnier than it should be. "The cute dumb one let me out." I feel bad for the shifter. Locked in the attic her whole life - she never stood a chance. And shapeshifters are the one monster that has a choice. I get hiding her as baby, but not once she could control the shift. I also like Sam just flat-out stating that his family likes each other (most of the time). After all the drama of season nine, just that they can just simply like each other means a lot.