S07.E11: Suits Of Woe

[Lonesome Rhodes]

 

One example of a major false note:  Jax showing such agony over Tara's death.  He did not trust her and was angry with her.  He pretty much wanted her dead if for no other reason than to control his children's lives.  Last night he acted like life was no longer worth living since she's been gone.  Baloney.

 

 I felt like it was authentic after the way he and Tara left things. After their meeting at park and motel rendezvous, he stuck the deal with CCH Pounders charcter. He did the "right thing". He was gonna turn himself in & Tara was getting off the charges in some fashion or other. Or did I get that wrong? I thought Tara was experiencing relief as she first returned home & SAMCRO was saying goodbye to Jax because of it.

Apparently, I erased the quote marks. Sorry :)

There is no "wrong" or "right" here.  Your take is perfectly valid and reasonable.  Perfect example of YMMV, to me.

 

Anyway, Jax had moved on to f the world mode by the time he had that sit down with Tara.  He was bitterly angry that her constant pressure to go legit failed utterly.  A dude like Jax would not take ownership, he would emotionally, and physically, lash out at the irritator.  Going forward, and knowing his mom would give him no small measure of shit and fight to the death for them, he would much, much rather have Tara be dispensed with.  Basically, Sutter wrote a check in that scene that had no funds behind it.  I didn't take it then, and I refuse it now.

 

Fast forward to now.  Jax has turned into an almost pure monster.  To me, this dude would never have put on a "show" for Nero.  He had nothing to gain by it.  Now, what I completely buy and believe, is that he realizes his kingdom is kaput and that he faces a brutal death at his brothers' hands.  THAT, would drive all but the purest evil (think Lorne Malvo in Fargo) to abject sadness and fear. 

 

Now, those are a couple of my reasons.  That doesn't make me right.  Passionate, yes.  Right?  Maybe yes, maybe no.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Lonesome Rhodes

[spaceytraci1208]

I actually liked Unser going off on Jax... somebody needed to say it. It is exactly what I think of him... a brutal homicidal thug. Granted coming from Unser it was a bit hypocritical seeing that he has been complicit in said "thug activities"  all along and is only mad now cause he got burned.

What was said to Jax, absolutely needed to be said. Unser was just the wrong messanger; that dude's been damn near an honorary member since before Jax was even born...and doesn't he kinda live on their property? I thought his trailer was parked in the lot of the Sons' auto shop or something...well I guess that's easily resolved, he just has to drive it someplace else

[lacEdoll]

Just rewatched this episode...and yes Jimmy Smits is totally in his element as Nero. He kills it every scene. But then JS has been that caliber of actor in everything he's done. He's simply amazing...put him and James Spader in something together. That would be interesting indeed.

 

Juice...calling Gemma to inform her that he came clean and told the truth about what happened when she killed Tara. Very anticlimatic if you will...poetic justice for both. I still could quite never figure out why he killed the sheriff to protect Gemma. Was it because she had protected him in a motherly way in the past, for instance when she helped him after he OD'd? Or was it out of some sense of loyalty to Jax, perhaps a brotherhood feel as the MC is Juice' life. Its all he has. Perhaps he was truly wanting to protect Jax from the ugly truth that is his mother. 

Juice calling Gemma was his way of letting her know the gig was up, the new was out, they'd finally been found out. No more running, no more lies. He's free and he knows death is all he has left. In a way he was letting her know her own fate. 

[njmama]

The episode I have been waiting for all along and I loooved it.

The emotion in the scenes with Jax/Juice, Nero/Gemma and Jax/Nero, does it get any better?? Juice and Nero need Emmy's now.

Someone mentioned Nero's leg bounce but what I noticed was the way he said "heeeey" to Gemma. I almost busted out laughing. Very Martin Lawrence-Shenaenae BUT overall, beautiful scene.

Can I just ask...wtf is the point of me staying up for the after show, which I do always?? The actors don't say much or give long winded answers filled with shrugs and "uuhh's" and giving all their credit to Sutter who also gives the same exact answers countless times.

They don't even answer the questions directly. They talk about the season as a whole and it's entirety, just answer the friggin question!! Glad I stay up for that.

Now we wait 2 weeks.....

[DrSpaceman]

It was an OK episode, but I think these 90 minute ones drag on too long.

Whether Jax does it himself or not, Gemma isn't surviving this if someone tracks her down.

Glad Juice came clean and told all.

[Disraeli Ears]

Can I just ask...wtf is the point of me staying up for the after show, which I do always?? The actors don't say much or give long winded answers filled with shrugs and "uuhh's" and giving all their credit to Sutter who also gives the same exact answers countless times.

They don't even answer the questions directly. They talk about the season as a whole and it's entirety, just answer the friggin question!! Glad I stay up for that.

Now we wait 2 weeks.....

Yeah, the after shows are pretty lame. I usually FF through most to see someone in particular and, last night, I turned it off early because it is so boring. These are nowhere near as interesting as The Talking Dead. It helps that TTD has a great host who asks good questions. Someone called Anarchy Afterword a "schmooze fest " and that is all it is: ass-kissing and self-congratulations. We don't need to see that every week.

The only after show that I remember before this season was the one after the season 6 finale (with Katey and Maggie). Is this the only season in which they have been a regular occurrence?

[ToniG]

I may be missing the boat, or misremembering, but wasn't Chucky's catch phrase 'I accept that'? So I thought Gemma's response was going back to that & showing how much he meant to her.

I think that's exactly what was intended - I didn't see any disrespect there.

[Dusty]

Huh.  Would you look at that.  I really did think that Gemma losing everything would be enough for me.  Nope.  I'm gonna need more suffering.  I don't know.  Maybe it's because it didn't feel like she did lose everything.

 

My favorite part of the episode was when Nero found out and asked Gemma about it.  That little childlike bounce he did. Dude.  That got me.  I wasn't really feeling Katey Sagal in that scene though.

[Snookums]

Of course the rat is Barosky, it is the only logical conclusion that could be drawn.  Many people, including myself, though it was him all along.  We haven't seen any signs of anyone else in the club acting hinky in terms of being the mole.  And frankly, I don't think anyone in the club is smart enough to pull it off.

 

 

I honestly went "Guns? What guns?" every single time this nonsense was brought up because I can't keep any of this shit straight anymore, but it never occurred to me that it would be anybody BUT Barosky, especially after he shot the pawnshop dude. He might has well have sent 'HA HA IT WAS ME' to Jax's phone in emojis.

 

As much fun as it would have been for it to be Rat, there's no way he would have been left in this long--he's participated in way too much shit. Like I said a couple eps ago, the only thing they couldn't nail the club on at this point is the Kennedy assassination. Even the stunning incompetence of every single branch of this version of California's law enforcement and legislative branches would have rounded their asses up by now.

 

So, like everyone else, I was astounded at Smits tonight, selling me on actually feeling a pang for one of the stupidest men in the world. When he's looking at her, trying to process all that he's lost--all those Diosa girls--to her lies, demanding she look at him, realizing finally who he's with, that a person who makes you her confidante about her most recently murdered amour will most likely leave you scorched and smoking too? AMAZING. I was holding my breath, though, until he looked at her and said "you should go." The only reason he didn't kill her was he knew Jax had to talk to her and he apparently owed him that much. Thank God Sutter didn't have him hug her, or give her money--even Smits couldn't have pulled that off.

 

Juice pink clouding with Jarry and Unser Cancer Mummy was great--a portrait of a man who finally, finally, finally has nothing to lose, who doesn't have to lie or keep any stories straight anymore, who's above all this shit now. I think he'll take Manson out just as a little gift to himself, then either kill himself or commit suicide by guard if he isn't offed quickly enough. 

 

Gemma remains true to herself by, even now, not admitting a damn thing. Even with Nero she didn't say the words "I killed Tara," she just confirmed that Jax was telling the truth. She absolutely positively will NOT go that last inch and actually face what she's done--her personality won't let her. Someone like Gemma, who scorches earth like other people drink a Coke, does the heinous shit she does because she's always convinced she's working for something bigger, some end that justifies the means. Thus the whole "Here's your grandpa's ring, my fucked up legacy" thing. She honestly thinks the club is a thing that exists, even now, and all this is a sacrifice for it.

 

I've finally figured out what's really missing this last season--Charming as a character. Back in the day when Tara was first trying to get the kids and Jax away, I wrote over at TWoP that Charming almost seemed alive, some kind of evil, sentient place that absolutely will not let you leave. Within its borders your authority is near absolute but the penalty, like a genie in a bottle, is having to stay, and stay, and stay, digging revenge trenches and retaliation holes ever deeper.

 

But now, Charming just seems like any random place. Half the action is in Stockton or wherever and things like Scoops being blown up don't seem to have the slightest impact. In the first or second season, it was a huge deal for the SoA to be seen as kind of bent knights-errant in the town--the fun kind of bad. They were established as keeping all drug traffic away, their gun warehouse was outside the town limits, and so on. Now there's nothing. The town hasn't even turned against them, it's like they can't even see them.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Snookums

[look2thecookie]

For me one of the best lines of the episode was at the end when Jax tells the club, "I'm sorry that the family I was given has created so much chaos in the family I've chosen." Initially this line rang very false to me, because I assumed Jax was referring to SAMCRO as the "family he's chosen." But then I realized that the family Jax has chosen is actually his family with Tara and the boys.

 

In this case, that line recalls the Jax of season 4 when he was aware of how poisonous the club was for his family. This acknowledgement seems to be the first time in a while that Jax has actually been self-reflective. Some may see this as inconsistent writing, but I always felt that the Jax of seasons 5-7 was hiding behind something of a front. He spent the first half of the series in one frame of mind, and the second half in another. Now it's time to face the consequences of that "to be or not to be" conflict that he has lived.

[Texasmom1970]

Like others I was worried for a minute that Juice would take the bullet for Gemma, then I wold have been seriously pissed. I also thought for a minute she was gonna try to snatch one or more of the boys before she blew town.

I understand Jax is torn because it is his Mom. If he confronts her and allows her to run off into the sunset after all the deaths and shit she has caused, i swear. Not only killing Tara but the deaths caused by the ripple effects.

And lastly Jimmy Smiths is awesome, that is all!

[terrymct]

Protection??  What protection?  Juice killed a cop!  No matter what he says, he is doomed.  Might as well go down feeling somewhat like a martyr then to go down as a cop killer already in jail.

 

Good point.  I totally forgot about the Sheriff.  Althea and Unser don't know that Juice killed him so they were willing to mention protection.   The best way out for Juice might be to OD on that meth or coke he's been snorting.

[La Tortuga]

I don't understand something. Why is it that Sutter has knowingly written Gemma as the ultimate bad guy on this show, full of machinations and the brutal murder of all those closest to her, and yet he still pays this lip service to the idea that anyone who dares to tell the truth about her or give her a consequence for what she's done is betraying her? Is he seriously still saying that Abel betrayed Gemma? Gemma betrayed Abel by killing his mom, and there's no way Sutter isn't fully aware of that. I get that he loves his wife, buy why is he pretending he doesn't think he wrote her character as the villain? Is Katey Segal really that sensitive about it?

[Duke2801]

Yep.  This was by far the best episode of the season so far.  I haven't seen Jax emote like that in a looong time.  Of course, as it's been pointed out, he doesn't seem able to strongly emote WHILE remembering that his character is *not* a Brit/Valley Girl, but ya know what?  I'll take it.   

 

I'm SO glad that car chase scene has been mentioned and I've been thoroughly enjoying reading everybody's take on how silly and out-of-place the music that accompanied it seemed.  WTF Sutter.

 

And lastly Jimmy Smiths is awesome, that is all!

 

 

For me, this just sums up the entire season.  I personally think he's been the best thing about season 7, by a wide margin.  I keep thinking back to how much I hated his character on Dexter ...and how much I love him now.  Such an amazing actor. 

 

One example of a major false note:  Jax showing such agony over Tara's death.  He did not trust her and was angry with her.  He pretty much wanted her dead if for no other reason than to control his children's lives.  Last night he acted like life was no longer worth living since she's been gone.  Baloney.

 

 

But they had patched things up at the time of her death, no?  Just because he was angry with her doesn't mean he didn't still love her a great deal.  She was the one who wanted to leave him, not the other way around. 

 

For me one of the best lines of the episode was at the end when Jax tells the club, "I'm sorry that the family I was given has created so much chaos in the family I've chosen." Initially this line rang very false to me, because I assumed Jax was referring to SAMCRO as the "family he's chosen." But then I realized that the family Jax has chosen is actually his family with Tara and the boys.

 

 

Well, he could mean both the club and Tara/Abel/Thomas.  But in that particular instance, I think he was referring to SAMCRO.  Being that the rest of the speech had been about how much his actions had hurt the club, etc.

 

I may be missing the boat, or misremembering, but wasn't Chucky's catch phrase 'I accept that'? So I thought Gemma's response was going back to that & showing how much he meant to her.

 

 

You're totally correct.  I feel confident that that scene was never supposed to be a "diss" of Chucky, but actually a cute/sweet moment between the 2 of them. 

[Uncle Benzene]

I think the whole "betray" thing is just a matter of semantics. Sure, perhaps Sutter could choose a better word, but "betray" doesn't have to mean anything more than "unintentionally reveal." It doesn't necessarily have to carry a connotation of maliciousness or treachery or even intent. Gemma is being exposed left and right here lately, most notably by Abel. Her machinations are being betrayed to people from whom she's been trying to hide it. The word "betray" doesn't necessarily imply that Gemma's in the right and Abel's in the wrong.

[larapu2000]

Yes, Uncle Benzene, I thought the same thing when watching the aftershow.  Like the phrase "his expression betrayed his words" or something like that.  Not that Abel had gone full on treasonous.

[Febgirl]

Does anyone seem to think that Lin saying Barosky was the rat was just an "easy answer" and that the real rat is yet to be revealed?   

I wonder now if  Sherriff Jarry might be in August Marks' pocket.  

Other lingering questions,

 When is enough enough for Chibs, Tig, et. al., and when do they put the brakes on Jackie boy?

It looks like they're getting close to their frustration point with him.

  If Jax is stripped of his patches,  will Tig have a place as an officer again, with Chibs, likely becoming President?

One final thought-- Baby Thomas' electric socket hair might be the cutest thing ever.

[Artsda]

 

For me one of the best lines of the episode was at the end when Jax tells the club, "I'm sorry that the family I was given has created so much chaos in the family I've chosen." Initially this line rang very false to me, because I assumed Jax was referring to SAMCRO as the "family he's chosen." But then I realized that the family Jax has chosen is actually his family with Tara and the boys.

 

He was talking about the club with the family he's chosen. He was talking about Bobby's death, the Chinese, Marks, the Jury situation all the turmoil to the club (family he's chosen) that was brought upon by Gemma's lie about Tara's death. (family he was given).

[JLG]

Does anyone seem to think that Lin saying Barosky was the rat was just an "easy answer" and that the real rat is yet to be revealed?   

 

 

I think you are right.

[Snookums]

But they had patched things up at the time of her death, no?  Just because he was angry with her doesn't mean he didn't still love her a great deal.  She was the one who wanted to leave him, not the other way around.

 

 

Being angry or upset at someone you love when they die can make things much worse. Knowing the person you loved, had a child with, can no longer support your games and cons and lies and frantic scrambling covers? Seeing the disappointment in their eyes when you and they finally realize they just can't pretend this one last time? That you kept throwing the chances they gave you, one after another, into that pit of what seemed like good important things and turned out to be full of literal shit and now they have nothing left? But you wouldn't admit it, you kept getting angrier and angrier at them, insisting it's all their fault somehow for not keeping on with the deception and if only they'd just do this, that, the other everything will at long last be all right? And then they die?

 

I honestly think that Jax is going to confront Gemma and then kill himself in front of her, because not only is that the only thing that will get through to her, he absolutely cannot live with this. As he sobbed to Nero, "Even after everything she's done, she's my mom." Knowing that Gemma is the one who indoctrinated him into this fatal routine of "no matter what I do it's for a good reason and if you love me you'll agree" style of worship passing as love, and that no matter how many times he was confronted with her true nature he could not break that hold, and now not only has every last shred of what he treasured been torched, the damage has spread far and beyond just him into every person and thing he cares about. Bobby's kids are fatherless. Sixteen dead young women. A young man brutalized and murdered for no reason. Juice left as a husk in Stockton longing only for death. Abel so damaged it's hard to believe he'll ever find peace or stability. 

 

But she's his mom.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Snookums

[Mrs peel]

Sh

She’s not even technically “bio Mom” (as in references to moms who give up children for adoption).  She’s MOM.  She and Jax were married; she didn’t give the kid up to anyone, etc.  Tara was step-Mom.

For me it takes more to be a "mom" then giving birth and being married to the dad. She almost killed Abel and then left. Tara was the mom who took care of him and raised him. She is MOM.

I get that, but let’s remember that Wendy didn’t abandon Abel voluntarily.  And her husband and mother-n-law did little to nothing to help her with her problems (and in Jax’ case he made it worse).  She is still legally Abel’s mother.  I have no problem with Tara being called Mom by Abel, she has been around since he was very small (and of course he still is).

For me one of the best lines of the episode was at the end when Jax tells the club, "I'm sorry that the family I was given has created so much chaos in the family I've chosen." Initially this line rang very false to me, because I assumed Jax was referring to SAMCRO as the "family he's chosen." But then I realized that the family Jax has chosen is actually his family with Tara and the boys

.

I thought he meant the MC, especially since he was talking to them.  I hadn’t considered this possibility.

 

 

I managed to forget about Gemma and the ring.  What an asshole!  How in the world could she still think the MC is a good choice for her grandson?

 

 

I still feel bad for Juice.  His original sins are he loved the MC too much and when one of the many Sheriffs threatened to reveal his father was black, wanted to hide that.   At least that’s how I remember it, I’ve been half-watching for a couple of seasons.

 

I honestly think that Jax is going to confront Gemma and then kill himself in front of her, because not only is that the only thing that will get through to her, he absolutely cannot live with this. As he sobbed to Nero, "Even after everything she's done, she's my mom." Knowing that Gemma is the one who indoctrinated him into this fatal routine of "no matter what I do it's for a good reason and if you love me you'll agree" style of worship passing as love, and that no matter how many times he was confronted with her true nature he could not break that hold, and now not only has every last shred of what he treasured been torched, the damage has spread far and beyond just him into every person and thing he cares about. Bobby's kids are fatherless. Sixteen dead young women. A young man brutalized and murdered for no reason. Juice left as a husk in Stockton longing only for death. Abel so damaged it's hard to believe he'll ever find peace or stability.

But she's his mom.

I kinda like that idea, though I doubt Jax would do it.  He seems to always think he can solve whatever problem (and per the preview).  But if that happens, it better only be after Wendy has been given enough money, new id and gotten many, many miles away with Abel and Thomas.  Because Gemma would cry a bit, then pick herself up and try to go get Abel to groom him for the MC.

[Artsda]

 

Does anyone seem to think that Lin saying Barosky was the rat was just an "easy answer" and that the real rat is yet to be revealed?

 

It's not. Barosky is the rat. Peter Weller said so in EW interview. He said he's thrilled he was the rat and was always supposed to be from day one, Kurt told him. 

[ctscorpio]

So - anyone else think Juice meets his maker in this episode?

oh yes next week Juice will be history---Jax did say "It will be quick"

[Duke2801]

Being angry or upset at someone you love when they die can make things much worse. Knowing the person you loved, had a child with, can no longer support your games and cons and lies and frantic scrambling covers? Seeing the disappointment in their eyes when you and they finally realize they just can't pretend this one last time? That you kept throwing the chances they gave you, one after another, into that pit of what seemed like good important things and turned out to be full of literal shit and now they have nothing left? But you wouldn't admit it, you kept getting angrier and angrier at them, insisting it's all their fault somehow for not keeping on with the deception and if only they'd just do this, that, the other everything will at long last be all right? And then they die?

 

 

I'm sure Jax feels guilt.  Guilt for letting her stay in Charming, guilt for getting her so entrenched in the club, guilt for not keeping his word on getting them out of the MC life (aka, murdering, gun selling/drug dealing life) and of course, guilt for her death. That being said I still think that we, as viewers, were supposed to believe that J&T were finally at peace with one another at the time of her death. 

[Disraeli Ears]

The possibility of Jax committing suicide has come up a number of times (especially after Jury dropped the suggestion of John's death being a suicide), but what about his boys? Does he really want to abandon Tara's kids (regardless of Wendy) to an unknown fate? Sure, Wendy could take them, but Jax better be damn sure that she is in a position to handle things. Or else who knows what could happen to them?

As far as Gemma, I vacillate between wanting her to go to jail and wanting her to die. SURELY Unser will find out and SURELY he will serve the law (though I wouldn't bet money on it). So hopefully she will end up in jail. Then she could have visitations with the kids (and that would be awful). Of course Unser could be an idiot (he has been before) and he and everyone else who knows the truth could let Gemma live, without letting her return to Charming. Maybe Jax should let someone else kill her.

[justawatcher]

I keep going back to a few thoughts after Tuesday night:

Jax gets the Mayhem vote and is killed. Wendy hears about Gemma killing Tara and then Jax getting killed and takes off for Nero's farm with the boys. Juice hears about Jax getting killed and realizes Gemma's on the run, Jax is dead, and he doesn't necessarily have an MC death sentence (maybe others but not an MC one). I don't see Tig or Chibs patching in with another charter. Chibs goes back to Ireland, Tig ends up in a brothel in Vegas. And Rat is really the rat. No idea what happens to Unser, Chuckie, or Happy.

But with Jax and Gemma, one has to live and one has to die, right?

And those are my guesses, not a spoiler. But, I hid it under a spoiler tag in case people didn't want to hear others guesses.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I'm sure Jax feels guilt.  Guilt for letting her stay in Charming, guilt for getting her so entrenched in the club, guilt for not keeping his word on getting them out of the MC life (aka, murdering, gun selling/drug dealing life) and of course, guilt for her death. That being said I still think that we, as viewers, were supposed to believe that J&T were finally at peace with one another at the time of her death. 

This is such a fantastic point.  We most certainly were supposed to believe that a peace had come.  That don't make so, though.

 

It is one thing that an audience accept a factual development, regardless how absurd.  Bobby's eye was poked out.  There can be no denying that.

 

Yet, the true art is in the nuanced takeaways of an audience/reader.  Does the author earn the intended takeaway???  Is there even an intended takeaway, or is there never supposed to be "truth" at all?   Is the point of it all chaos as a metaphor for life?  Soooooo many ways to go with unspoken interpretation.

 

Sutter long ago, for me, forfeited the right to expect any standard reaction to developments.  The biggest and most obvious for me are any concern any character may have for legal consequences.  When it came to Tara, he went back and forth and in-between too many times for me to ever believe there could be any sort of "normalcy" with Jax.  She's a badass, then she's a wonderful and super-ethical surgeon, then she becomes, in her own way, a desperado.  Please.

 

So, while I fully accept Sutter tried to attempt a harmonious ending of that relationship, there was almost nothing in the events all around it that could ever inform such.  Ironically enough, Sutter had more time than he knew what to do with and he could have devoted it to leading towards a "loving" understanding between those two.  He consciously went the other way, constantly creating terror in Tara.  Jax did not lightly go ultimate dark with a vengeance, either.  To me, there is simply no rational way a "peace" could have been brokered or conjured.  I know I was supposed to.  YMMV.   

[MrsRafaelBarba]

See many talking about Jax and Tara's last scene at the park.

When he rolled up, she panicked and thought he was going to kill her.

Then he basically set her free, telling Tara to have a great life.

And take care of their boys.

Planning to do the right thing, admit the crimes and do the time.

[JLG]

I've had it with Mumm-Ra The Everliving (bka Wade Unser)...self-righteous old mummy. I cheered when Jax punched him in the face.

I was pissed when Juice called Gemma, but I guess they had to drag this out a couple more episodes.

YES!  I keep going back and forth betwixt wondering if Unser knows everything, yet is trying to protect Gemma; or, if he is the dumbest person/cop EVER?  He is annoying and inexplicably self-righteous, so  I didn't mind him being punched in the face.  Plus, I then assumed that he provoked Jax so that he could try to get him arrested.

 

I was afraid they would drag this out, so I was furious that Jax had left the burner phone with Juice.  But after what it cemented in motion with Gemma, I understood the purpose.

 

Nice to see a decent episode for a change. The acting was certainly top notch.  The range of emotion on Jimmy Smits' face while Jax told him the truth was a thing to behold.

 

 

I've seen Jimmy Smits in several things; and while I thought he was decent, I never knew how good he was before this.  His scene on the street with Gemma, whilst he was reacting to what he was being told over the phone, was brilliant.  Not only does his dream of loving her die, but he also realises  exactly what she has caused.  I completely understood why he bounced up and down, and when he sat down on the curb and wept.  Emmy, anyone?

I KNEW it was Barosky.  Who else would it be?

 

IMO the best episode all season.  I've never been a Juice fan, but I enjoyed his scenes tonight.  Marilyn Manson using him as a love toy cracks my shit up for days.

Until I read a link to an interview, I thought mayhap Barosky wasn't the rat.  I was wrong.

 

I've been tired of Juice for a bit now.  But his scenes this episode were heartbreaking.  He was so resigned, and he told Jax the truth.  In the aftershow, they made a point to mention that after everything, Juice is still alive.  Even after the scene with the guards, we didn't see his end.  So I wonder if he will be left standing?

[JLG]

Holy shit! Charlie Hunnam remembered how to act! His scenes with Nero and Juice were so, so good. And Nero's breakdown on the curb? Come on, mano. That was heartbreaking.

I have hope once again for a satisfying conclusion to the series. It was waning...but this episode was so fantastically strong.

I agree, CH was awesome; not only with Juice, but definitely with Nero.

 

I swear to God, nobody on this show can keep a damn secret EXCEPT for Gemma.

 

Jax: Wendy, don't tell anyone I know what you just told me.

Wendy: (immediately tells Gemma)

Jax: (immediately tells Unser)

Unser: (immediately tells Gemma)

 

Juice is right, these people are all a bunch of blind fools.

 

I will have more to say tomorrow. Tonight, I am much too pissed.

Yes, that's always been the biggest problem with these characters.  Nobody(most especially, Tara)keeps their stupid mouths shut.

 

GREAT acting job by Hunnam, but it came at the expense of his already-shaky American accent. In a couple of scenes, I don't know that he was even trying to sound correct.

 

 

 

Yeah, seems like Charlie just doesn't care to even try anymore.  Makes me wonder what everyone else things about it.  Does the cast resent working with a guy who refuses to maintain even a semblance of an accent?  Do the directors hate having to go through scene after scene in the hopes that Charlie will give them a tiny something to work with?  Does anyone on set even notice what a terrible job Charlie is doing wrt accent?  

 

It's not like Charlie Hunnam was ever truly good with the accent.  But at least I used to be able to ignore the one or two slips an episode.  Now it's more like one or two slips a sentence.  So distracting.  

I really never mind Charlie Hunnam's accent slips.

Actually, a couple of weeks ago, I realised that when he gets upset, or raises his voice,  it sounds like Cameron Frye from Ferris Bueller's Day Off impersonating Mr. Peterson on the telephone with Mr. Rooney.  Then I got over it, and got back to watching the show.

 

His acting this episode was wonderful.  It couldn't have been better.  Especially with his scene with Juice.  With Nero, it was just icing.

[Duke2801]

Actually, a couple of weeks ago, I realised that when he gets upset, or raises his voice,  it sounds like Cameron Frye from Ferris Bueller's Day Off impersonating Mr. Peterson on the telephone with Mr. Rooney.  Then I got over it, and got back to watching the show.

 

 

Omg.  Hammer?  Meet nail.  Seriously.  That's such a perfect description of his "super serious voice." 

[Uncle Benzene]

Jax to Marks: "Pardon my French, but you're an asshole!"

[Febgirl]

ROONEY!!!! ROONEY!!!!!

[Captanne]

I thought the whole episode was stunning.  Just stunning.  Emmys go to Hunnam, Smits (for the scene by the car) after Jax has told him, and Juice for the jail scene when he told Jax and followed by the scene with Unser and Jarry.

 

WOW.

ETA:  Aside from the performances, on a character note -- it really struck me as in role for Jax to tell the Club and then give them all a day to think about it.  I just loved that leadership maneuver on his part.  It made perfect sense to me as a leader and rang true for Jax.  No matter what we think of the Club, John Teller or Clay, (or in the meta, what we think of Sutter and his abilities for good or bad), it makes sense to me that when the shit hits the fan to the very, very core of a person, Jax is (en fin) the prince, heir apparent and reigning king and he will act like it.

 

That was cool to watch in his evolution.

 

That's my opinion.  Mileage is going to vary wildly and I expect that.  Over six seasons, viewers develop a lot of baggage about the characters and the creators of the show and also hold longterm grudges.

 

Myself?  I thought it was a cool evolutionary point in Jax's character and made sense.

[JLG]

ROONEY!!!! ROONEY!!!!!

 

Jax to Marks: "Pardon my French, but you're an asshole!"

LOL!

 

Omg.  Hammer?  Meet nail.  Seriously.  That's such a perfect description of his "super serious voice." 

Really! He does sound like that.  So how does  outer-fringe-British crossed with mid-California end up sounding like John Hughes-Chicago?  Lol?

 

 

[Madding crowd]

When the cast was on Conan, Charlie maintained that he considers Jax to be the 'cool' guy that others want to be. I can understand that it was a fun character to play, but I don't see cool.

[Captanne]

I do see "cool", actually.  I also see "cool" in Chibs.  Not in any of the others.  

[missy jo]

Now that the shoe has dropped about Tara, is the other one regarding Gemma's involvement in John Teller's death going to drop, too?

 

The entire narrative of the show, until Tara's death and Jax's subsequent murder spree, has been: "To be or not to be" and the knowledge that Gemma conspired in the murder of John Teller.

 

Jax had seemed to make his decision, but even though now it's wobbled by this news, I don't care that much anymore. However, I *do* very much care about closure on the John Teller revelation. And of course Jax's murder of Jury. There must be consequences, especially now it's revealed Jax lied about it.

 

I'm still baffled as to the point of the red herring from Jury about John supposedly committing suicide, because that betrays the entire narrative of the show since the pilot episode.

 

I also thought for a minute she was gonna try to snatch one or more of the boys before she blew town.

 

 

I was bracing myself for a kidnapping during her every scene with "her boys."

I actually liked Unser going off on Jax... somebody needed to say it. It is exactly what I think of him... a brutal homicidal thug.

What was said to Jax, absolutely needed to be said. Unser was just the wrong messanger

 

His speech earned a huge "Exactly!!" from me.

[Captanne]

I really like the way you've distilled the show to the two narrative questions (both are very "Hamlet") -- about Teller's murder and then Tara's murder.  Then, including Jury's (which is so recent it's like a dangling modifier.)

 

I got the feeling that Jury's comment about suicide was just an example of "stories get muddled in the telling" (so, that may have been the "rumour on the street" about Teller's death but we know what really happened) and a bit of desperation to get at Jax in the moment.

 

However, I feel that Teller's murder has been sussed and finished.  That happened a season or two ago, no?  Jax found out about the Hamletonian plot by Clay and Gemma to get rid of John.  Wasn't that made clear?

 

Now they are tying up the death of Ophelia (not very Hamletonian but they are sort of playing fast and loose with that plot by now -- they have the right.  Shakespeare didn't have to contend with 6 years of having to make princely dithering entertaining.)

[Kel Varnsen]

I am also curious as to how any kind of club investigation into Jury's death would go down. Not only who gets to vote by how they see how it went down. I mean yes he wasn't the rat, but at the same time he and Jax were fighting (which happens all the time it seems in the club) Jax knocked him down and then Jury reached for hi gun. It was then that Jax shot him. So what exactly was Jax supposed to do in that case, let Jury shoot him?

[LoveLeigh]

Actually, Unser is correct. Jax (seasons ago) became a serial killer. What really is his body count? He kills about 2 or 3 people each episode. It's absurd already. Kurt Sutter is a great writer, but he stretches suspension of disbelief more than a bit. The FBI would have been all over Charming years ago with all the crap and murder that goes on there. 

[Captanne]

Jax seems to be the rarest of the rare, a "mass murdering serial killer".  (To paraphrase Eddie Izzard.)

[shanndee]

I really like the way you've distilled the show to the two narrative questions (both are very "Hamlet") -- about Teller's murder and then Tara's murder.  Then, including Jury's (which is so recent it's like a dangling modifier.)

 

However, I feel that Teller's murder has been sussed and finished.  That happened a season or two ago, no?  Jax found out about the Hamletonian plot by Clay and Gemma to get rid of John.  Wasn't that made clear?

 

 

I don't think it was made clear at all. All of the responsibility was put on Clay, and he took the fall for Gemma. Jax does not know that Gemma was involved in the plot. He needs to find out that his mother killed his father. The club also needs to find out the truth. Clay should not remain the sole guilty party.

Edited November 22, 2014 by shanndee

[Captanne]

Hmm.  I mentioned earlier that if I have a complaint about the show (or one that matters to me, at least) it's that I have a hard time keeping all the players organized.  Not so much the Club or the main characters -- but I lose sight of all the gangs and their members and who is "running" what.

 

So, I genuinely asked about the responsibility for the murder being made clear to Jax.  I honestly couldn't (can't) remember.  I was under the impression, though, that it was clear to Jax that Gemma was involved.

 

I guess it wasn't.

 

And that makes sense because I don't remember Jax having to deal with that knowledge.  I do remember him dealing with the revelation about Clay's involvement.  (Not just causing Clay's death, but the whole "reveal" and Jax's reaction.)  But I don't remember him ever acknowledging Gemma's part in it.

For that matter (my brows are knit, fyi), what the fuck was Gemma's involvement?  I don't even remember.  I know Tara had the letters and they implicated Clay but what was Gemma's role?  

 

I think I need some 'splainin' about those letters, huh.

 

I'd go back to that wiki page that was so helpful about Juice's backstory but it's white type on black and I get wicked negative ghosts in my eyesight if I try to read it too long.  Blergh.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Captanne

[Kel Varnsen]

For that matter (my brows are knit, fyi), what the fuck was Gemma's involvement?  I don't even remember.  I know Tara had the letters and they implicated Clay but what was Gemma's role?  

 

From my recollection the letters didn't really implicate anyone. From what I remember it was JT telling Maureen that if he were to die unexpectedly it was probably Clay and Gemma who killed him. But considering that JT didn't actually write the letters from beyond the grave they don't really prove anything.

 

Actually, Unser is correct. Jax (seasons ago) became a serial killer. What really is his body count? He kills about 2 or 3 people each episode. It's absurd already. Kurt Sutter is a great writer, but he stretches suspension of disbelief more than a bit. The FBI would have been all over Charming years ago with all the crap and murder that goes on there. 

This is probably the one thing that bugs me more than anything else this season (if not longer). With all the crime happening in Charming, why the hell has law enforcement basically given up trying to arrest the sons? And from what we see it would be sooo easy to bust them on stuff that would put them in jail for a long time, just with the most basic surveillance. 

[Captanne]

Hmm.  Thinkie thoughts.

 

So, if the letters were merely implications -- that works with the ghost of Hamlet's Father telling him that Claudius killed him.  I mean, that's just about as murky and unclear.  As far as I recall, there was no mention in the play of Gertrude's complicity in the murder, either; it's just her "incestuous" behaviour by marrying Claudius soon afterwards that raises eyebrows. 

 

Shakespeare is no stranger to wicked women -- just read MacBeth.  (And, while you're at it, go on to read, "Iron Thane" by my good friend Jason Henderson.  Yes, that is a shameless plug.)  So, if Gertrude had known, he would have given her a soliloquy.  I'll bet dissertations have been written debating that point.  LOL

 

ANYway, thanks for that insight, Kel Varnsen.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Captanne

[Turtle]

Gemma saying that she'd always been a good mother to Jax made me pause the show just so I could laugh hysterically for 30 minutes.  A delusional sociopath to the very end, that one.

 

The club members' faces as they sat around the table listening to Jax tell the story were fantastic, as you could see the reality and enormity of the situation slowly dawn on them, the realization of what they had done based on nothing but lies.  I wish the camera had stayed on their faces for longer, instead of focusing on Jax for so long.

 

I've always liked Juice, even though he is a complete moron, and he made me sad in this episode.  One, I think rape is horrible and I could never be happy to know it's being done to someone, even if he is a fictional character (similarly, I can't enjoy torture).  That said, not a fan of all the murdering either, but somehow, to me, rape seems worse.  Maybe because it leaves such an emotional scar on people, whereas murder just leaves them dead.  Not saying it's totally logical, but it's how I feel.  Two, I always got the impression that all he wanted was to be part of the club and to have that chosen family, and he just couldn't figure out how to not fuck it up (see above re: moron), and his sad resignation to his fate was just sort of heartbreaking.  

[Disraeli Ears]

I have been watching old seasons and almost finished season 3 last night. The letters were love letters JT sent to Maureen Ashby (the woman he had been seeing in Belfast, with whom he had a child). Basically he talks about the eunni of his life and how he isn't really bothered by Clay and Gemma's closeness; he is more concerned with the club's direction and the fact that C&G may be planning something "dangerous." IIRC, there is never any proof that Gemma was actually in on anything, just the implications. And you don't really get a sense that John was suicidal.

[Captanne]

That rings true to me, Disraeli Ears.  Thank you!

[missy jo]

I got the feeling that Jury's comment about suicide was just an example of "stories get muddled in the telling" (so, that may have been the "rumour on the street" about Teller's death but we know what really happened) and a bit of desperation to get at Jax in the moment.

 

However, I feel that Teller's murder has been sussed and finished.  That happened a season or two ago, no?  Jax found out about the Hamletonian plot by Clay and Gemma to get rid of John.  Wasn't that made clear?

 

Thanks for the clarifications re: John Teller's death, y'all. I think in my mind it got "muddled in the retelling" too. Perhaps I've always blamed Gemma as complicit  when the show and her #1 fan, Mr. Sutter, did not spell that out.