S04.E08: The Last Supper

[jjj]

Wonder how Tom is doing?  Or if he became part of the collateral damage.  He was the source of the information that led to this week's kiddie insurrection. 

[lorikauai]

Anyone else want Mellie to team up with Andrew and Lizzie to bring down Fitz/Olivia/Cyrus?

Just me? Okay.

[ribboninthesky1]

What would make Rowan happy? What boyfriend or career could Olivia have that would satisfy him?

 

If I recall correctly, Rowan didn't like Edison, either.  Didn't he cause Edison to have some kind of "accident" to force Olivia to break up with him?  Rowan seems to view Olivia as property, which is why I've never taken him seriously in his interactions with Fitz and Jake as it relates to Olivia.  He and Fitz are more alike than either could or would admit.

[PrincessTT]

If I recall correctly, Rowan didn't like Edison, either.  Didn't he cause Edison to have some kind of "accident" to force Olivia to break up with him?  Rowan seems to view Olivia as property, which is why I've never taken him seriously in his interactions with Fitz and Jake as it relates to Olivia.  He and Fitz are more alike than either could or would admit.

 

Has his issue not (partly) been that she picks boyfriends who compromise his role as command? Wasn't Edison part of the intelligence committee? 

[venusnv80]

I haven't liked Rowan's speeches lately, but I loved his speech last night when he left her in that restaurant.<br /><br />I have no love for Fitz or Jake, so anyone supporting Olivia breaking away from those two is good enough for me.<br /><br />Yeah its annoying to have an all knowing villain, but with those idiots plotting--I would have found it ridiculous that they got over on Rowan.<br /><br />At the end of it all, they need to get back to the case of the week, the Gladiators and let B2368755 fall to the wayside along with at the very least Jake. Also speaking of Jake, should I be happy that they discovered he didn't kill the Grant kid, but he did kill 3 other people! Come on show.

[marceline]

Has his issue not (partly) been that she picks boyfriends who compromise his role as command? Wasn't Edison part of the intelligence committee? 

 

Ah Edison. God bless the guy. He saw what a hot mess Olivia is. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by marceline

[Julie23]

Sample Rowan Script: I killed the Presidents' son FOR YOU, I put Jake in a hole, FOR YOU, I killed your mother, FOR YOU, I am killing all the guys that were here to arrest me FOR YOU. Please STFU  or DIE> I cannot stand to listen to him anymore. The wonder triplets should have shot him when they had the chance. I am so tired of his all powerful all knowing can't be beaten by anyone self. If he is not really GONE, then this show is over for me.

In other news....Huck bonds with his son on a stakeout. Seriously? WTF is wrong with you Huck?.

Andrew is a big a slimebag as the Pres. I used to like him.

Sun, Vermont, blech. I hate Fitz.

Even Cyrus was really into speechifying this week. I honestly don't think the writing can get any worse. Those spit-spewed speeches by practically everyone are just not even watchable anymore.

[ribboninthesky1]

Has his issue not (partly) been that she picks boyfriends who compromise his role as command? Wasn't Edison part of the intelligence committee? 

 

My memory is faulty on this part because I thought Edison didn't become part of the committee until well after Olivia broke up with him.  Also, when they were together, I don't think Olivia knew Rowan was Command.  Part of the problem is that Rowan's scope of power is based on how the winds blows.  If we go by the show, Command has/had as much or more power than the President, so why would one man on an intelligence committee be a threat just by dating and marrying the daughter who has no idea what his real job is anyway? 

 

As for Jake, Rowan was the one who ordered him to stalk and seduce Olivia, if only to keep her away from Fitz.  So I don't know how Jake continuing a relationship with Olivia compromises Rowan.  It was only when Jake decided to take Rowan down that he would be a threat.  Eh, I'm not going to waste any more mental space on it - this show defies most logic, even within its own universe. 

[jjj]

I finally remembered who Edison is, so thank you, peeps -- I had completely forgotten about him. 

 

I do not think for a minute that Rowan is gone for good, or even for this season.  But did he leave Maya with a large supply of water and kibble somewhere?  Isn't she in the dungeon still?  I'd rather seen Rowan around Olivia than Maya. 

[PrincessTT]

My memory is faulty on this part because I thought Edison didn't become part of the committee until well after Olivia broke up with him.  Also, when they were together, I don't think Olivia knew Rowan was Command.  Part of the problem is that Rowan's scope of power is based on how the winds blows.  If we go by the show, Command has/had as much or more power than the President, so why would one man on an intelligence committee be a threat just by dating and marrying the daughter who has no idea what his real job is anyway? 

 

As for Jake, Rowan was the one who ordered him to stalk and seduce Olivia, if only to keep her away from Fitz.  So I don't know how Jake continuing a relationship with Olivia compromises Rowan.  It was only when Jake decided to take Rowan down that he would be a threat.  Eh, I'm not going to waste any more mental space on it - this show defies most logic, even within its own universe. 

 

You raise some very good points.

I was just trying to apply some possible logic to something which makes no sense at all. 

Probably me giving Shonda too much credit by thinking that she gives her characters proper understandable motives for anything they do. 

 

Regarding Edison and Rowan, this is from the ABC website recap of the episode:

 

A short time later, Olivia introduces Rowan to her fiancé, Edison. He’s a senator who will make sure spies get treated right. This is Olivia’s way of telling her dad that she wants Huck back. Rowan obliges, but also infers that he was behind a car accident that injured Edison. 

 

I think that's where my idea about Rowan's motives came from.

But I'm still not 100% sure why Rowan has Edison injured, or why he has such an issue with every man that Olivia is involved with.

Edited November 14, 2014 by PrincessTT

[ribboninthesky1]

You raise some very good points.

I was just trying to apply some possible logic to something which makes no sense at all. 

Probably me giving Shonda too much credit by thinking that she gives her characters proper understandable motives for anything they do.

 

I understand where you were coming from.  Apologies for coming off flippant - the writing has that effect.  I'd actually given up on the show early last season, but my sister persuaded me to catch up.  It's still the same mess, so I'm annoyed I wasted my time. 

[mbutterfly]

See, I liked it. It was stupid and the characters are not consistently drawn. But I liked it. I liked that I  grabbed my cheeks like Macauley Calkin and said "Oh no" when Javi was in the van spying with Huck and when Andrew arrived at Lizzie's apartment. I liked "Call me Captain Ballard." I found the whole show fun. 

[CofCinci]

What would make Rowan happy?

At this point, I think he wants to have sex with his daughter.  I'm confused.  Or speech her to death.

[27bored]

It seems like twelve years ago when Portia de Rossi was on Ally McBeal she was kinda hot, right? Am I imagining that? So I'm not feeling her look on this show. She looks bony, that slicked back Power Lesbian Hillary Clinton haircut is stupid (why not just a cute bob?), and she looks like she's channeling Sharon Stone.

 

Damn, I knew Rowan would figure that shit out.

 

Good call Huck on inviting your son to a stakeout. The unshaven, bug-eyed thing wasn't creepy enough, you've got to really scare him by taking him on esoteric missions and then killing people and shit.

 

Where's Abby?

 

In hindsight, after Olivia exonerated Jake, she probably should've let Fitz deal with the info. She could've just insisted that Jake be released now that Fitz knows the truth. Trying to coordinate her father's capture was not smart, because he's as smart and ruthless as she is.

[Oblique Angle]

Poor Mellie. She just can't catch a break.

But she could catch an STD. Her opportunities have just risen exponentially, Who knows where that RNC woman has been?

 

Will Jake end up having been in cahoots with Rowan? 

Yeah, when Rowan mentioned the "in the sun" thing I wondered where he picked that up. Is the Fortress of Scheming Against Rowan bugged?

 

or why he has such an issue with every man that Olivia is involved with.

Because they're not him.

[Cirien]

Yeah, when Rowan mentioned the "in the sun" thing I wondered where he picked that up. Is the Fortress of Scheming Against Rowan bugged?

I hope so. I don't want Jake to have been double crossing them all this time , just so Shonda can have her Happy Ending with Olitz....*throws up*

[slayer2]

Well show, I'm done. Thanks for stopping by my head. You could have easily resolved the last hour by having Olivia take a knife to him in the last 2 minutes. Why isn't there a female version of emasculating? Ah well, we'll always have wine and Captain Jake Ballard. Or I'll at least always dream I had both. Have fun with your Freddy Kreuger show, knock yourself out...literally.

 

 

 

Last week when the 3 of them were plotting at the end I was thinking that they were like the 3 geeks who got together after school and devised a plot to MAKE the bullies stop slamming them into lockers.  They were that ineffective..

As it happens, the "Troika" (as they were self-dubbed on Buffy) were pretty effective.
 

Edited November 15, 2014 by slayer2

[Iamsweetdee]

I so enjoy this crazy, crazy show.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Anyone else want Mellie to team up with Andrew and Lizzie to bring down Fitz/Olivia/Cyrus?

Just me? Okay.

Actually I want Mellie to go to Cyrus and see if Michael has any friends she could rent for the night. Male/female ....either/or.

[wanderingstar]

Ok, y'all are killing me with the snark, especially this:

 

Wow, who knew I'd grow to hate "in the sun" as much as I hate "Vermont." In terms of tortured relationship analogies, Charlie has stripped the sun and Vermont both naked, duct-taped their mouths, wrapped them in plastic and is working on them with a power drill.

 

 

Take a bow, Eolivet. I am over here crying with laughter at this.

 

Enjoyed this episode overall, EXCEPT...

 

I am really over Papa Pope always winning.

 

I loved Olivia yelling "Shut up!" at Fitz and Jake.

 

I actually laughed out loud when Cyrus said he compromised his integrity..... The idea that he thinks he has any integrity to compromise is beyond laughable.

 

 

 

And I laughed out loud when Olivia said Michael cares about Cyrus and thinks he's a good man? I hope the show doesn't think we should agree and be rooting for Cyrus and Michael to live happily ever after. I still think poor Ella needs to find a distant relative to live with. Cuz - as Cyrus himself noted - he's a stranger to his own child.

 

Well, that was the first gay hate/sex I've ever seen on TV!  Wow!  I thought Cyrus was going to kill Michael and then get Olivia to get rid of the body!

 

 

Yeah - I didn't think Michael was going to make it to the next commercial break.

 

 

I swear, in a show filled with ridiculous things, the idea that Fitz is a Republican is the most ridiculous of all.

 

 

Oh Lord, YES! Few things on this show drive me as crazy as this.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Gillian Rosh

[tpplay]

This discussion of how unlike a Republican Fitz is reminds me of how, back in the day, I really wanted Alan Alda to win the election on the West Wing.  I would have LOVED to have a season of seeing how our left-leaning series regulars dealt with that.

 

I'm not a Republican (by a long long long shot) but I'd love to see a multi-dimensional, believable portrayal of one.  

 

I mean, politics is politics from every political angle.  But I'd love to see a character who's a Republican who doesn't think people should kill other people, and who has at the forefront of his thinking all the time what's a) best for the country, b) the ethical thing to do.

 

That would be interesting to me.

This discussion of how unlike a Republican Fitz is reminds me of how, back in the day, I really wanted Alan Alda to win the election on the West Wing.  I would have LOVED to have a season of seeing how our left-leaning series regulars dealt with that.

 

I'm not a Republican (by a long long long shot) but I'd love to see a multi-dimensional, believable portrayal of one.  

 

I mean, politics is politics from every political angle.  But I'd love to see a character who's a Republican who doesn't think people should kill other people, and who has at the forefront of his thinking all the time what's a) best for the country, b) the ethical thing to do.

 

That would be interesting to me.

This discussion of how unlike a Republican Fitz is reminds me of how, back in the day, I really wanted Alan Alda to win the election on the West Wing.  I would have LOVED to have a season of seeing how our left-leaning series regulars dealt with that.

 

I'm not a Republican (by a long long long shot) but I'd love to see a multi-dimensional, believable portrayal of one.  

 

I mean, politics is politics from every political angle.  But I'd love to see a character who's a Republican who doesn't think people should kill other people, and who has at the forefront of his thinking all the time what's a) best for the country, b) the ethical thing to do.

 

That would be interesting to me.

[Nanrad]

I can't feel sorry for this latest incarnation of Mellie.  The show has written and re-written her character so many times that I don't have sympathy for her. She's still the one who was set-up in an arranged marriage for political reasons, had children she didn't want, faked a miscarriage, encouraged her husband's affair until she didn't, etc.  Poor, little Mellie doesn't work for me.

Mellie has done some messed up stuff, but despite your facts being correct, there is some missing content. I believe Big Jerry set up the marriage and Mellie went along with it, but she was legitimately interested in Fitz. I think the story has always been told as that. Even if she wasn't, I believe the beginning of their marriage has always been described as happy and loving and somewhere down the lines that change. That change was Mellie's rape and how her son could've possibly been a result of that. So, Mellie did love Fitz and wanted to be with him, but she also wanted to gain something political out of a marriage with him.

 

Some people have children they don't want and grow to love them. Mellie isn't winning mom of the year awards any time soon, but she wasn't a neglectful parent and seemed to have a decent relationship with her children. Back in season two she listed the changes in their kids, which means that she's been paying attention or spending time with them. 

 

Faking a miscarriage is terrible.

 

When Fitz began his affair with Olivia, Mellie just focused on one of the reasons she married him: to get into office. If Fitz was going to have an affair, she'd rather be it with someone who'd keep it quiet than someone who'd blab to the media if given the chance. So, yes, she encouraged it, but that doesn't mean she was emotionally okay with it. Mellie was content with their marriage being dead as long as she could be in his partner in the White House and not only did Fitz deny her that, he allowed Olivia to be his partner, so was literally left with nothing as far as love and political partnership went. That's where the resentment began to rear it's head in.

Say what you want about Rowan, but he's 100 percent right about Fitz and Jake.  If he has to go, can he please get rid of President Bitch Boy too?

 

I was all excited about Andrew and Mellie getting back together until it was revealed that Andrew is with Elizabeth.  Aw man.  Mellie just has a terrible time picking them, doesn't she?

 

I think he's wrong about Jake. Jake loves Olivia and legitimately wants to be with her, but he isn't going to pressure her and he wants her to come correct. Jake has always been honest about his feelings and what he wants. Initially, whenever he spoke to Fitz, it was always about business and Fitz always brought Olivia up. Up until he got arrested, Jake tried to be an adult about the whole situation even though he knew that he came in second to Fitz. It was when Fitz insisted on making even his son's death about Olivia, that Jake resorted to taunting him. Why shouldn't he? Everything he says and does is summed up as that when it comes to Fitz. Then, when he spoke to Olivia, his demeanor changed and he told her that he was saying that to rile Fitz up because Fitz is predictable that way.

 

Jake's plan was probably stupid, but he was correct, Rowan having the home court advantage meant that men would be led into a slaughter. Considering that Fitz established Jake as command, he should've listen to someone who headed that organization even if it was temporarily. 

 

Yeah, I was too, but every since the new season started, I got bad vibes from Andrew. Now, unless he's trying to expose Fitz and co...he's not wrong. But, one thing did peeve me: he really had no right to be pissed at Mellie. She was CORRECT, he did choose VP over her. That was his right, BUT it is understandable why Mellie is upset and didn't want to talk let alone acknowledge him.

[Cirien]

Mellie has done some messed up stuff, but despite your facts being correct, there is some missing content. I believe Big Jerry set up the marriage and Mellie went along with it, but she was legitimately interested in Fitz. I think the story has always been told as that. Even if she wasn't, I believe the beginning of their marriage has always been described as happy and loving and somewhere down the lines that change. That change was Mellie's rape and how her son could've possibly been a result of that. So, Mellie did love Fitz and wanted to be with him, but she also wanted to gain something political out of a marriage with him.

 

Some people have children they don't want and grow to love them. Mellie isn't winning mom of the year awards any time soon, but she wasn't a neglectful parent and seemed to have a decent relationship with her children. Back in season two she listed the changes in their kids, which means that she's been paying attention or spending time with them. 

 

Faking a miscarriage is terrible.

 

When Fitz began his affair with Olivia, Mellie just focused on one of the reasons she married him: to get into office. If Fitz was going to have an affair, she'd rather be it with someone who'd keep it quiet than someone who'd blab to the media if given the chance. So, yes, she encouraged it, but that doesn't mean she was emotionally okay with it. Mellie was content with their marriage being dead as long as she could be in his partner in the White House and not only did Fitz deny her that, he allowed Olivia to be his partner, so was literally left with nothing as far as love and political partnership went. That's where the resentment began to rear it's head in.

 

I think he's wrong about Jake. Jake loves Olivia and legitimately wants to be with her, but he isn't going to pressure her and he wants her to come correct. Jake has always been honest about his feelings and what he wants. Initially, whenever he spoke to Fitz, it was always about business and Fitz always brought Olivia up. Up until he got arrested, Jake tried to be an adult about the whole situation even though he knew that he came in second to Fitz. It was when Fitz insisted on making even his son's death about Olivia, that Jake resorted to taunting him. Why shouldn't he? Everything he says and does is summed up as that when it comes to Fitz. Then, when he spoke to Olivia, his demeanor changed and he told her that he was saying that to rile Fitz up because Fitz is predictable that way.

 

Jake's plan was probably stupid, but he was correct, Rowan having the home court advantage meant that men would be led into a slaughter. Considering that Fitz established Jake as command, he should've listen to someone who headed that organization even if it was temporarily. 

 

Yeah, I was too, but every since the new season started, I got bad vibes from Andrew. Now, unless he's trying to expose Fitz and co...he's not wrong. But, one thing did peeve me: he really had no right to be pissed at Mellie. She was CORRECT, he did choose VP over her. That was his right, BUT it is understandable why Mellie is upset and didn't want to talk let alone acknowledge him.

Quoting the whole thing because I can't disagree with any of it. Fitz has a habit of using his status as the Pres to over ride people around him. See his "I'll call you what I want!" and constantly back Liv into a corner to harass her ( and let's not forget the sexual assault). Even when Jake was describing what Fitz had done to him I sat there wondering how on Earth Liv could still think she loved him? #

 

They kinda did this on Outlander with Claire being horrified at Black Jack Randall's sadism, and the implication that it would affect her relationship with Frank *(if she ever got back) who looked just like him.

[Oblique Angle]

You could have easily resolved the last hour by having Olivia take a knife to him in the last 2 minutes.

Since the scene was in a restaurant I thought maybe Olivia was going to pull a Michael Corleone on him. Or at least she'd try; it's hard to imagine Liv killing her own father. Maybe when Mama Pope re-emerges she'll reveal that Rowan isn't really Liv's dad. Knowing there's no real biological connection might free Olivia up emotionally to do it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Oblique Angle

[Anna Yolei]

I swear, in a show filled with ridiculous things, the idea that Fitz is a Republican is the most ridiculous of all.

I thought I was the only one that felt that way. It's not like I expect every GOP member to believe rape babies are self aborting or most of the other embarrassingly stupid shit that was spewed in the last election; but Fitz is written as left of many Democrats.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Quoting the whole thing because I can't disagree with any of it. Fitz has a habit of using his status as the Pres to over ride people around him. See his "I'll call you what I want!" and constantly back Liv into a corner to harass her ( and let's not forget the sexual assault). Even when Jake was describing what Fitz had done to him I sat there wondering how on Earth Liv could still think she loved him? #

.

How many times had Olivia ended the relationship only to either have Fitz show up at her door with full secret service detail or have that detail kidnap her?

I don't think Mellie is the bad guy in this. She is the one being cheated on. Yes she could have left Fitz a long time ago but she had already put all her eggs in his basket and she like Olivia and Cyrus is a King Maker and fir better or worse,...Fitz is their king.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[FullTilt]

I apologize in advance for my crudeness, but I was amazed to see that Cyrus's trick was able to walk the morning after the angry sex with Cyrus.  That looked pretty violent to me! 

 

Olivia:  what's left to say about her stupidity?  She's kind of caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.  God knows she's no saint herself, but her father is over-the-top evil, Fitz is mean as hell AND a bully (and does anyone else find him sexy at all?), and Jake is pretty much a serial killer.  Talk about poor choices!  She needs to back the hell away from ALL these guys and just find some uncomplicated guy who cares about her and not power and killing others.  Or is that a turn-on for her?

 

The "in the sun" BS reminds me of Meredith babbling about being "the sun" on Grey's.  As someone upthread mentioned, this is just lazy writing.

[mbutterfly]

I do believe Jake loves Olivia (however Jake can love). I thought the "Helen of Troy" reference was spot on in the way the show has created Olivia. The parallel is intriguing. Is her father a god? Did her mother hatch her from an egg? And the question about Helen was: is she a wistful, sorrowful, regretful woman or is she a treacherous woman who rejoices in the carnage falling around her? 

[txhorns79]

By the time this episode was over, I fully expected Jake and Fitz to have sex with each other as a way of proving who was better for Olivia.  That's how screwed up that particular threesome is to me at this juncture.  Half the time I feel like neither even notices Olivia, so much as they want to spend all their time measuring their dicks. 

 

And you know what Cyrus, Michael doesn't love you.  This isn't Pretty Woman.  He isn't a hooker with a heart of gold, and the two of you aren't having some whirlwind romance.  He's a hooker who was hired to seduce you and screw you over in more ways than one.  Try to remember that.  

 

Finally, Huck, you've only been a quasi-parent for a few days, and you've probably done more damage to that kid than his mother could do in a lifetime.  Congrats.        

[Nanrad]

Jake is pretty much a serial killer.

 

Is Jake a killer? Most definitely. A serial killer? No, imo. One of the criteria of being command is killing who gets in the way of the mission or the republic. All the people Jake killed, no matter how morally wrong, was him doing his job and not something he particularly enjoyed. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but disagreeing with the basically serial killer part. Beside Jake believing that they should kill Roawn, he really hasn't shown any tendencies to kill.

By the time this episode was over, I fully expected Jake and Fitz to have sex with each other as a way of proving who was better for Olivia.  That's how screwed up that particular threesome is to me at this juncture.  Half the time I feel like neither even notices Olivia, so much as they want to spend all their time measuring their dicks.

 

I understand why Jake legitimately dislikes Fitz. Back when we first met Jake, he and Fitz were friends. Fitz assigned him to monitor Olivia and he discovered that she wasn't a national threat and developed feelings for her. He didn't tell Fitz because it was inappropriate. Then he realizes that he is being played, but still tries to remain an adult about it and Fitz won't have it. Fitz someone how makes most, if not all, of the conversations. Fitz imprisoned and beat up his supposed friend all because Jake spent two months fucking his (former???) mistress. He tried to get him tried for the death of his son without even trying to listen to him. Jake's anger at Fitz as well as his behavior towards him has absolutely nothing to do with Olivia. 

 

Whatever issues Jake has about Olivia's relationship and feelings for Fitz, he address with her. 

 

One scene Jake does taunt Fitz, which is only because Fitz was so "sure" about Jake killing his kid when it was really about Jake being on the island with Olivia. Fitz is insecure and territorial. The other scene where they argue is because Fitz thinks he knows best because he's president and has all of these soldiers at his disposal that he doesn't want to listen to the man who actually was once command. Despite the fact that they didn't attack the B613 headquarters, Jake did warn them that meeting on Rowan's ground would lead to a slaughter. Now, if they had listened to Fitz, it would've happened at the headquarters instead of at a restaurant (*and maybe Jake would've been killed, maybe not--But, I think Olivia tipped him off), but that doesn't change that he had ever right to argue against Fitz plan. It's Fitz who always tries to use his presidency as a trump card regardless of why he is using it.

Finally, Huck, you've only been a quasi-parent for a few days, and you've probably done more damage to that kid than his mother could do in a lifetime.  Congrats.

 

I agree, but I think the mother forced both Huck and Javi's hand. Didn't she dismiss him when they first saw each other after all of those years, and then subsequently tried to call the police on him? Perhaps she could assume he was on drugs or a schizophrenic, but Huck is clearly not who he used to be. I suppose she may have built up anger from believing he just up and left him, but I think she could've handled the situation better than be completely dismissive of Huck trying to get to know his son, and then trick him into believing that they were going to talk. Javi must have asked some questions about his dad if he is so desperate to meet Huck. Because if the mother had done more and set up where the two could meet and have a relationship, those secret meetings wouldn't be taking place. I honestly don't want to seem like I'm blaming her, but Javi and Huck were desperate to get to spent time with each other. 

 

 

*Is it possible that Rowan was completely clueless about Jake/Fitz/Olivia and Olivia tipped him off? I understand that he has men everywhere, but he was under the impression that Jake was still in prison. She oversold her story, imo. Unless she wanted Rowan to believe that they always bring up each other when conversing, how are the two arguing about her so much that it gets to her? Or the fact that she probably isn't on a visit sheet or call log for Jake as well? Then when has Olivia ever reached out to her father unless it was an absolute emergency (while she was mad at him)??? I don't think Rowan knew and I think they were better off killing him like Jake said.

[Julia]

Oh, really don't agree. I think the parent who didn't put the kid's life in danger and then take off gets to set boundaries, and no means no, legally and morally (not that I imagine someone who thinks of bondage-with-power drill as foreplay is going to get that ever). Also, was she wrong? Even Quinn knew it was a terrible idea to stalk people who murder people with a kid in the van. Huck? Didn't. He should stay far, far away from that kid.

[Sidney]

Oh, really don't agree. I think the parent who didn't put the kid's life in danger and then take off gets to set boundaries, and no means no, legally and morally (not that I imagine someone who thinks of bondage-with-power drill as foreplay is going to get that ever). Also, was she wrong? Even Quinn knew it was a terrible idea to stalk people who murder people with a kid in the van. Huck? Didn't. He should stay far, far away from that kid.

 

ICAM!! Even Olivia was concerned about Huck being involved in that boy's life. Huck is unstable and very dangerous and shouldn't be around that boy until he gets the professional help that he desperately needs. Who takes a child to a stakeout? Not a responsible parent that's for sure. Huck screwed up big.

[Nanrad]

You missed my point. 

 

I said that I agreed that Huck has done more damage to his son than his mother ever could, but that both of them were desperate to see one another. We know that Huck isn't right in the head and why, but she doesn't. Now, unless B613 faked a letter or something, Huck went from a sane, loving husband with a pregnant wife to mentally unstable/not all of the way there. I was arguing that because she knew who he used to be that she should've tried to actually try to hear his story before completely dismissing him UNLESS the anger really stuck with her because she thought he abandoned them. From what I remember, that's not exactly what happened--Huck was thrown in the hole for trying to defy B613 and be with his family. Now, if she didn't get a letter or anything, for a person who was committed and deeply in love as well as dependable as Huck was, did she honestly believe without a shadow of a doubt that Huck just decided being a parent wasn't for him and to abandon his family?

 

I agree that Huck is an unfit parent, but again, that wasn't what I was arguing.

 

Javi desperately wants to know his father and, considering the life she built with Huck before he disappeared, she owes it to herself and her son to know the full story rather than just keeping them away from one another. Despite believing Huck is an unfit parent, I believe he should have a relationship with Javi under supervision. That was what I was getting at: the mother is able to see what they are doing and allowing her son to develop a bond with his father. Instead, Javi went to find his father because, presumably, his mother either refused to talk about him or refused to acknowledge him presence at all. 

 

I don't think Olivia and Quinn thinks its a bad idea because of Huck's mental state, they believe it's a bad idea because the mother threatened and DID call the cops on him. 

[ElTVaddict]

Given what happened with Tom you'd think that they would realise that there are B613 agents everywhere. 

 

 

It was Olivia not Rowan who had Tom attacked in his cell.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I agree that Huck is an unfit parent, but again, that wasn't what I was arguing.

Javi desperately wants to know his father and, considering the life she built with Huck before he disappeared, she owes it to herself and her son to know the full story rather than just keeping them away from one another. Despite believing Huck is an unfit parent, I believe he should have a relationship with Javi under supervision.

There is a difference between Javi playjng video games with his father and spending and hour or two with him and going on super secret stakeouts that were always bound to end badly. Huck may be severly damaged and an unfit parent but he has done nothing to warrant being cut off from Javi outright if Javi wants the contact.

[PrincessTT]

It was Olivia not Rowan who had Tom attacked in his cell.

 

I know that. I wasn't talking about who attacked Tom.

 

I meant that Tom was a trusted member of the President's Secret Service detail, and yet he was also a B613 agent. 

That should make Fitz and Liv realise that there are B613 agents everywhere. 

[Julia]

Or, you know, their buddy the former head of B613 could just tell them. Oh wait...

I guess those two have succeeded in banging each others' brains out.

[Tetraneutron]

The episode completely ignored the giant 800 pound elephant in the room. So what if they kill Rowan? So what if they convict him vis secret military trial? Didn't they spend all of season 3 establishing that B613 goes beyond whoever's command at the time? That it's a fully-funded, fully secret organization that exists beyond who staffs it or how the President feels about it? The last time they kicked Rowan out, Jake took his place. And couldn't dismantle it from the inside apparently. 

 

The discussion in the bunker was metacommentary on the show. B613 is evil and horrible and ruins everything it touches. But as much as America or the viewing audience tries, they'll never be rid of it. At least until the cancel the show.

[Nanrad]

Obviously, at this point, their issue is with Rowan specifically. They no longer wanted to shut down B613, they wanted to get rid of the man who caused so much turmoil in their lives all because of petty personal reasons. All of them knew that he was back as head of B613 (I could be wrong about this), but the problem with killing Rowan is that he has those men at his disposal to protect himself. The next command isn't going to have an issue with who Olivia fucks unless it's Edison or something. lol

 

Accused Dingo, exactly. Huck hasn't (or didn't before the stake out) do anything to Javi that warranted no contact at all. That was all he asked for and she could've said "okay, but only under my watch because you haven't be around for years and you're talking all this crazy talk." Instead, she forbade them for seeing one another. 

[PrincessTT]

The episode completely ignored the giant 800 pound elephant in the room. So what if they kill Rowan? So what if they convict him vis secret military trial? Didn't they spend all of season 3 establishing that B613 goes beyond whoever's command at the time? That it's a fully-funded, fully secret organization that exists beyond who staffs it or how the President feels about it? The last time they kicked Rowan out, Jake took his place. And couldn't dismantle it from the inside apparently. 

 

The discussion in the bunker was metacommentary on the show. B613 is evil and horrible and ruins everything it touches. But as much as America or the viewing audience tries, they'll never be rid of it. At least until the cancel the show.

 

This time round they were trying to specifically stop/punish Rowan for what he had done rather than destroy B613.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

The discussion in the bunker was metacommentary on the show. B613 is evil and horrible and ruins everything it touches. But as much as America or the viewing audience tries, they'll never be rid of it. At least until the cancel the show.

 

 

But that might ACTUALLY be the point of Rowen's  "you think I am bad" speech.   If you think having me (B613) around is awful....wait until you see what happens when I'm not around.     Yeah he did all these awful awful things but it might be interesting to see all the enemies at the gate he actually did keep from Fitz's....Jakes....and most importantly Olvia's door.  

[lion10]

Did anyone find the smile Fitz had after he kissed Olivia really sinister?  The lighting and music seemed to reinforce that.

[Sidney]

Did anyone find the smile Fitz had after he kissed Olivia really sinister?  The lighting and music seemed to reinforce that.

 

I could be wrong, but I think it was a way of showing Olivia being rattled when she's near Fitz or having an orgasm when Fitz is describing what he would do to her if she was alone with him. I think the smile was more of a smug. Kind of like the same expression he had with her on the phone in the last episode..

 

Olivia is in total charge in her professional  life, but when it comes to her personal life she's complete mess.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Sidney

[Happytobehere]

Yeah, when Rowan mentioned the "in the sun" thing I wondered where he picked that up. Is the Fortress of Scheming Against Rowan bugged?

Actually, Rowan mentioned the sun thing to Olivia last year after Boy #1 aka Fitz replaced him as Command with his now former buddy, Boy #2 aka Captain Jake Ballard. He told Olivia her job was to drag everybody into the light and the warmth of the sun from the cold of the darkness. So while Jake may be revealed to be in cahoots with Towanda, IMO, that reference was commenting on her saving Fitz and Jake, neither of whom is worthy in his eyes.

My thoughts about Jake being in on it, which pains me because if we must be stuck with either boy, I prefer Jake to Fitz, was the blank files. We know they were not blank before because David used them in his power-schemes. Jake then stole them because that is where he got some of the information he wanted show Fitz. So sometime after Jake gets the documents, they are now blank. This makes me wonder if Tom's initial statement of Jake being behind it all was in fact correct. Perhaps Jake has teamed with Rowan to destroy Fitz.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Happytobehere

[Happytobehere]

This excerpt from the previously.tv recap really says all that needs to be said regarding Fitz and Olivia:

Olivia's relationship with her father explains so much about why she keeps going back for more of Fitz's garbage.

[WalrusGirl]

Bummed about Andrew and Portia - I like him and Mellie! But if Fitz is hypocritical to actively punish Olivia for Jake/dating in general (and he is), same would go for Mellie. You can only insist on so much fidelity when you're married. Still bummed, because I thought his feelings for Mellie were deeper than that and that he'd at least lose interest in the (presumably recent?) girlfriend once it was back on with her.

I didn't take his threat to Olivia as meaning he was going away as much as just not supporting her in whatever fashion he's been doing. And the sexual stuff was skeevy, but I gotta say, Fitz is responsible for opening that ... ugh.

The idea that we really might not get a break from him after all makes me sad. Way too much of a good thing.

And yeah, Fitz was appalling with that, but even Olivia went there recently to Rowan, all "I have weapons at my disposal you'll never have." Ick.

This discussion of how unlike a Republican Fitz is reminds me of how, back in the day, I really wanted Alan Alda to win the election on the West Wing. I would have LOVED to have a season of seeing how our left-leaning series regulars dealt with that.

As I recall, some of the writer's room was still campaigning for Alda's character to win until John Spencer (Leo/the VP on the democratic ticket) died. Apparently the episode with the win was already written when Spencer died (...though it and other scripts obviously required editing), though, so it probably wouldn't have been Alda anyway. But I'd have also liked to see him win, it just would have complicated what to do for Josh and Donna's (and maybe Will Bailey/David?) plot for the rest of the season.

[Tetraneutron]

 

Yeah he did all these awful awful things but it might be interesting to see all the enemies at the gate he actually did keep from Fitz's....Jakes....and most importantly Olvia's door.

Like albatross? Like Sally Langston and Hollis Doyle? Olivia and company seemed to handle everything just fine. B613 brings more problems than it solves. Like blowing up a plane for no reason, marrying a terrorist, killing the President's child, and leaving a swath of killed and tortured people a mile long. And not just for the government, but letting them freelance. We saw them "save the Republic" by killing James and those other people to cover up the knowledge that Sally killed her husband. They killed 4 people, and made a scandal much more people knew about, and tortured who knows who. And whatever Mama Pope, Adnan Salif, and that other guy were doing, they apparently weren't able to stop.

 

The worst thing about B613 is it robs the main characters of agency. Why are we watching a show about these people if they're just victims and pawns for big dark shadowy forces? If they just flail around until they get rescued?

[NvidiaATI]

One aspect that makes me enjoy watching Scandal is because all the characters, with the exception of David Rosen, are morally compromised, pathetic and in some cases pure evil.  When I watch other shows, I get irritated that the bad guys thrive and win for so long. But on Scandal, everyone is a bad guy.  So anyone can destroy anyone else and I am all the merrier.  I don't care if Olivia get a bullet in her head or Cyrus gets blown up by a car bomb or Fitz gets stabbed by Mellie in a jealous rage.  It all works for me.  I was forever turned away from Olivia when she shacked up with Jake who killed James, her best friend's husband.  Unbelievable!  And how can she be friends with a vile human being like Mr. Beane?  She is certainly no white hat.  My hope is David does not get corrupted by the disease around him.  He was already going down that road with blackmailing using the B613 files.

[Sidney]

One aspect that makes me enjoy watching Scandal is because all the characters, with the exception of David Rosen, are morally compromised, pathetic and in some cases pure evil.  When I watch other shows, I get irritated that the bad guys thrive and win for so long. But on Scandal, everyone is a bad guy.  So anyone can destroy anyone else and I am all the merrier.  I don't care if Olivia get a bullet in her head or Cyrus gets blown up by a car bomb or Fitz gets stabbed by Mellie in a jealous rage.  It all works for me.  I was forever turned away from Olivia when she shacked up with Jake who killed James, her best friend's husband.  Unbelievable!  And how can she be friends with a vile human being like Mr. Beane?  She is certainly no white hat.  My hope is David does not get corrupted by the disease around him.  He was already going down that road with blackmailing using the B613 files.

 

 

But didn't you know? It's all in the name of protecting the republic. Everyone's horrible and criminal deeds can be excused away because it's for the greater good.  So, even David should get a past. LOL.*rolleyes*.

[thewhiteowl]

Finally watched and boy howdy did I laugh my ass off. The three stooges who keep their collective brain in Olivia's pants thought they were going to get the better of PapaPope? LMAO. He's been doing this shit since Fitz had pimples. Frickin' amateurs.