S03.E06: Guilty

[Shanna]

With her, though, it's not her ability to fight that concerns me. It's her terrible decision-making and tenuous grasp on what actual justice is that make her an unsuitable vigilante prospect at this time.

Yeah, one more for the legit reasons Oliver has for not encouraging her to be a vigilante (no matter who hypocritical) is that just a week or two ago she was walking around beating up innocent people in hospital beds and ordering others to do murder for her. So he has no reason to think well of her judgement in this area.

With Ted, I think they might have been trying to make it about his concern for laurel? Maybe? It just doesn't play that way on screen.

[El Seed]

Interesting. I had the exact opposite reaction to Oliver and Laurel--I didn't pick up on any 'shippy-ness at all in their scenes together. Oliver didn't come off as a jealous ex as much as a not wanting to constantly clean up after Laurel's messes or bail her out of danger every five minutes. Oliver came off as a controlling asshole in the process but I do get where he was coming from considering the stupid things Laurel has done this season in her fits of rage.

 

 

I had a similar reaction. When Oliver is jealous he's uncontrolled, frustrated, and angry. He was none of those things in their interactions. He was clearly in control of his emotions, and while he certainly didn't trust Ted or Laurel's estimation of Ted, it had nothing to do with jealousy, but rather with Oliver being distrustful as a default and the trust issues he and Laurel have with each other (and for good reasons).

 

I actually found the "we used to date" scene funny in the same way, because it seemed like the scene was supposed to come off as though ~of course~ they used to date, that they're bickering like a couple, etc etc etc, but instead, it felt like she sucked the air out of the room by just offhandedly revealing Oliver's identity like that, and made Oliver and Ted massively uncomfortable.

 

 

Ted's reaction in that scene was hilarious to me, because he basically eye rolled and then walked away. He was so done with their shit in a matter of minutes.

[jaytee1812]

Fireman's carry. He could have done that with Felicity but it clearly wouldn't have been the romantic framing they wanted to set up the ILY in Unthinkable.  So for me it's hard not to compare the framing as being identical.

He could've put Laurel in a fireman's carry, because god forbid he leave her with any dignity.

On the point about Laurel telling Ted Grant she used to date the arrow. She wouldn't have had to say anything if he hadn't said her name. If he hadn't been trying to play the controlling ex Laurel wouldn't have needed to say anything.

God forbid any woman on this show not worship at the altar of Oliver Queen.

[catrox14]

 

He could've put Laurel in a fireman's carry, because god forbid he leave her with any dignity.

 

My point was that he could have done it that way for either Felicity or Laurel. The show opted to not do it that way.  I don't really get why that made Oliver a bad guy here.

 

 

On the point about Laurel telling Ted Grant she used to date the arrow. She wouldn't have had to say anything if he hadn't said her name. If he hadn't been trying to play the controlling ex Laurel wouldn't have needed to say anything.

 

Laurel still didn't have to answer the question with "we used to date".  Why didn't she just answer with "He knows my name because I worked against him and tried to have him arrested until he saved my life".  Or even better, "It's none of your business how I know him". 

Edited November 13, 2014 by catrox14

[bethy]

If he hadn't been trying to play the controlling ex

 

 

In fairness, I don't think Oliver was playing the "controlling ex" - he tries to control everyone.  Whether it's Laurel or Thea or Felicity - or Diggle or Roy, for that matter - Oliver is desperate to be in control when he feels like there is a threat to the ones he feels responsible for.  Honestly, I think Laurel's best able to ignore his attempts to control her and what she's doing, because she's not used to this aspect of Oliver.  Given what we've seen, she was the one controlling their relationship before the island and while he wasn't OK with that - hence the rampant cheating - he didn't really struggle against it, at least to her face.  On the Island and after, Oliver learned what it meant to be truly out of control of his life and those around him and he suffered a great deal for it. He learned control the hard way through what he's been through and I think now he's running around trying to control Laurel and others because it's the only way he knows how to cope.  It's not right and it's not healthy, but that's what he's got at the moment.

[Actionmage]

Laurel still didn't have to answer the question with "we used to date".

 

"Bygones!"

[pivot]

Why is it that the actor who plays Roy has managed to improve his skills in the past season and actually has chemistry with the rest of Team Arrow, while Kate Cassidy's acting has actually gotten worse and she still has no chemistry with anyone in the cast. She just doesn't fit and never will. And now they keep sticking her into the A storyline which makes it impossible for me to fast-forward her woodeness.

[patchwork]

I think there was a lot of Oliver/Laurel ship stuff in the script, but I don't think it came off that way on camera. I actually laughed at one point when they were in the lair (I think it was after Roy had told them he'd killed Sara and then ran off (!)) and Laurel walked a few feet away to stand with her back to everyone, and then Oliver went over to her -- I was sure he was going to at least hug her, that it was the beginning of a romantic moment, and started steeling myself -- and Oliver just stayed in his personal space bubble and started talking to her in this really dry, brotherly way. I actually found the "we used to date" scene funny in the same way, because it seemed like the scene was supposed to come off as though ~of course~ they used to date, that they're bickering like a couple, etc etc etc, but instead, it felt like she sucked the air out of the room by just offhandedly revealing Oliver's identity like that, and made Oliver and Ted massively uncomfortable. I don't know if the noromo vibe (though of course YMMV) going on with Oliver/Laurel despite the script putting them in pretty couple-y positions was purposeful on the part of the show or what.

 

ITA the writing was going for a romance vibe but everything else was trying to keep Laurel and Oliver in the friend zone. Music, positioning, line delivery, everything!

[quarks]

This show has had, shall I say, a tendency since episode 10, season 2, to give Laurel certain scenes/moments that were earlier given to Felicity and turned into popular gifs - swinging on ropes, handling Oliver's bow, that sort of thing.  This is similar, right down to the carrying Laurel from the car and the "I will always care for you," scenes.

 

That said, these scenes also had some huge differences.

 

First, in that first scene, there was absolutely no reason for Oliver to be carrying Felicity. Diggle was right there not carrying anyone and Oliver had an injured knee. In this episode, there was every reason for Oliver to carry Laurel: Diggle was already carrying Ted and nobody else was around.  Second, the first time the show also implied that Oliver carried Felicity for several blocks; this season the show implied that Oliver just carried Laurel away from the car.  Third, prior to the crashes, Oliver and Felicity were working together; Oliver and Laurel weren't. In fact, this was another case of Oliver rescuing Laurel yet again.  That could be romantic if not for the fact that a) Laurel actually (and I think understandably) called Felicity for assistance, not Oliver, and that b) Oliver had spent most of the episode telling Laurel that her becoming a vigilante was a bad move, while trusting Felicity's forensic skills because....um, help me here, everyone.  So this came across more as, "See, Laurel! Oliver was right! Becoming a vigilante is a bad move - it gets you hurt!" It turned into yet another example of the uppity woman getting angry then finding out that the man was right and she does need to be rescued by a man (or men in this case), something we first saw in the second episode of this show with Laurel, and which keeps happening with Laurel and which I really wish would stop.

 

With the I care about you scene - the main difference here is that although Oliver and Felicity, personal issues aside, are still working together, and Oliver is right back to invading her personal space to talk about sexy things like autopsy results, Oliver still hasn't welcomed Laurel to his team. On her side, Laurel made it very clear that she isn't on his team, and went right back to training with Ted (good on you, Laurel).  They were at odds the entire episode.

 

Which is not to say I didn't see some Laurel/Oliver ship tease moments in this episode, partly in the I care about your scene, but also in the bit where Laurel was attempting to accuse Oliver of being jealous and Oliver's line about having a larger lair.  I think this happened for a couple of reasons: one, one of the two writers has written episodes suggesting he really likes the idea of Laurel/Oliver together, and two, the show wants to keep viewers guessing about Oliver/Felicity and when/if those two crazy kids will work things out. Teasing an ex-girlfriend is a common trope for that. 

 

That said, while I think that would have worked just fine had the ex girlfriend in question been Helena, McKenna, or the mother of Oliver's kid, I think in this particular case ship teasing these two is....really not a good idea. But that's me. 

[Shanna]

I don't think laurels mistakes are about her being a woman, I think they are part of her character. The show, and Oliver, are cool with felicity rescuing herself even though she had little training compared to the others ( although I do think they've continued to teach her the basics). Oliver was willing to send felicity up again let slade and the reason is because he trusts her. He doesn't trust laurel, and for good reason. He doesn't trust her to make wise decisions and he knows when shit goes sideways he will have to rescue her. So I don't see it as paternalistic or controlling personally, at least not in an unhealthy way. She doesn't listen to him anyway. Kind of like Thea the other week. I think when you have known someone along time and you know they aren't going to listen anyway you feel free to give it to them straight. Laurel is certainly not traumatized by anything Oliver has done lately.

This episodes discussion of the autopsy that wasn't and Roy and the fact that they never had the forensics guys go to the scene of Sara's murder to look for clues was maddening. Guys, detectives do this detecting stuff for a living. Maybe you should have let them handle it.

[catrox14]

 

This episodes discussion of the autopsy that wasn't and Roy and the fact that they never had the forensics guys go to the scene of Sara's murder to look for clues was maddening. Guys, detectives do this detecting stuff for a living. Maybe you should have let them handle it.

 

And you know who could have called detectives that do detecting stuff for a living from the get-go? Laurel. The same Laurel that saw her sister fall off the roof, and who died  in her arms or before. The same Laurel who's own father is an ACTUAL POLICE DETECTIVE.

 

The stupid....it burns.

[Guest]

The guy who plays Ted became a better actor around SA. How does that happen?

 

Diggle is a pod person. We should alert the authorities because the real John Diggle is clearly missing.

 

Laurel is totally right to do whatever she wants but I hope she learns that her actions have consequences. Also a bit confused when she told Ted that she 'did what she needed to do.' When? What did she do? Call Felicity and crash a car? I don't get it.

 

I'm really warming up to Roy but he needs to stop parkouring everywhere. 

 

I didn't view any of L/O scenes as shippy. They have a history and clearly care about each other, of course he's going to look out for her. He's lived the path she's determined to travel and it's dangerous and he doesn't want her to get hurt. He also knows Sara wouldn't want that kind of life for her. I think if you want Lauriver together their scenes would make you happy but honestly, there was more heat and closeness in the brief scene between O/F in the foundry (it even looked like he went to hold her hand) than all of L/O scenes combined. But that's just my opinion. Different strokes!

 

I still don't care who killed Sara and dropping all these different clues an episode at a time is doing the mystery no favors. 

 

For the love of everything please give Quentin something else to do. 

[rue721]

I'm really warming up to Roy but he needs to stop parkouring everywhere.

 

I love the parkour! Though I wish they would have parkour in a situation where it's actually helpful to parkour. I mean, I will admit that it looks a little cheesy to be parkouring around in some big empty street or over a car hood or something like they've been having him do. But (and I'm not a comics reader, so maybe this is blasphemy or something, I'm sorry if so!) I like the idea of Oliver being good in the wide open spaces where being a big guy and having a long-range weapon are useful, and Roy being good in really cramped, tight spaces and being very acrobatic. I also like Roy/Thea together in that sense, since she's acrobatic, too -- I want to see them fight together! (As a team, not against each other).

 

Speaking of Roy, I actually do think that his relationship with Oliver is pretty well-earned on *his* side, though I'm not sure about on Oliver's side. Roy was so affected when the Arrow saved his life way back when he was kidnapped, he changed his life around trying to emulate him and get close to him even way back then, before he knew that the Arrow was Oliver and at the expense of his own safety and his relationship with Thea. That reaction made sense, imo, because Roy was pretty lost and alone before being rescued, and I think how important that was to hi then ties in pretty well to stuff like in this episode when some bad guy mocks him about getting kicked out of Team Arrow and it actually bothers Roy and he brings it up to Oliver later. I do buy that Oliver genuinely is Roy's hero and someone who he counts on and trusts.

 

On Oliver's side, I think the relationship is less well earned. But I also can't say that it's out of character at all that Oliver would take Roy under his wing as a "little brother." I think that Thea implicitly vouching for Roy (by dating him, believing in him, etc) also probably won Roy a lot of points in Oliver's book.

 

Tbh, I think the Roy/Oliver relationship and Roy in general comes off a little "off" because Colton Haynes cannot play wholesome for the life of him. I actually like the casting choice, because CH gives Roy a slight bit of sliminess/edge that he wouldn't have from the writing alone and that adds some depth/tension to the character. But imo sometimes there's a slight mismatch between how the characters within the show are reading Roy (as implicitly trustworthy, as emotionally vulnerable, etc) and how he reads to the audience when played by CH (which is as a little bit shadier). YMMV though, of course.

[Guest]

I love the parkour! Though I wish they would have parkour in a situation where it's actually helpful to parkour. I mean, I will admit that it looks a little cheesy to be parkouring around in some big empty street or over a car hood or something like they've been having him do. 

 

Speaking of Roy, I actually do think that his relationship with Oliver is pretty well-earned on *his* side, though I'm not sure about on Oliver's side. Roy was so affected when the Arrow saved his life way back when he was kidnapped, he changed his life around trying to emulate him and get close to him even way back then, before he knew that the Arrow was Oliver and at the expense of his own safety and his relationship with Thea. That reaction made sense, imo, because Roy was pretty lost and alone before being rescued, and I think how important that was to hi then ties in pretty well to stuff like in this episode when some bad guy mocks him about getting kicked out of Team Arrow and it actually bothers Roy and he brings it up to Oliver later. I do buy that Oliver genuinely is Roy's hero and someone who he counts on and trusts.

 

On Oliver's side, I think the relationship is less well earned. But I also can't say that it's out of character at all that Oliver would take Roy under his wing as a "little brother." I think that Thea implicitly vouching for Roy (by dating him, believing in him, etc) also probably won Roy a lot of points in Oliver's book.

 

I don't mind the parkour when it's needed. But he does it all the time. It seems like overkill. In 304 when Thea got kidnapped by Nyssa he parkour'd over the car when he easily could have run in front of her. It just made me laugh instead of thinking 'Wow, cool!' Less is more, I think.

 

As for relationships being earned, I agree but that's a downside to the 5 month time jump. We missed a lot of bonding and training and relationships developing, from all sides. Olicity, Laurel's interaction with the team, and also Roy/Oliver. I think we just have to believe that Oliver spent those five months trying to make up for 'failing' him in s2. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by Guest

[benteen]

Just to add to Oliver's hypocrisy.  Ted killed a drug dealer six years ago.  Oliver killed a drug dealer (Count Vertigo) last year.  It was understandable, Felicity's life was threatened.  But Oliver of all people should know how things can go sideways in this kind of work.

 

As pointed out, Laurel has shown terrible judgment as recently as a week ago.  I don't think there was anything wrong with Oliver refusing to train her or join the team.  But that still doesn't mean he has a say in whether or not she can become a vigilante.  Oliver might think because he's better trained, he can be a vigilante but that still doesn't make what he does any more legal.

 

Diggle wanting to drop Roy is out of character although I really noticed how out of character he was a couple of episodes when he advised Oliver to not tell Thea his secret identity.  He'd always been an advocate of Oliver telling his family the truth.  Why are these characters being written out-of-character?  To manufacture drama and/or to prop up Laurel (whose judgment remains terrible on this show).

[apinknightmare]

Just to add to Oliver's hypocrisy.  Ted killed a drug dealer six years ago.  Oliver killed a drug dealer (Count Vertigo) last year.  It was understandable, Felicity's life was threatened.  But Oliver of all people should know how things can go sideways in this kind of work.

 

Oliver IS a hypocrite though; he's always been one, it's not something new.

 

And he's allowed to tell Laurel not to be a vigilante just like she's allowed to ignore the hell out of him, haha.

Edited November 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Princess Vanellope]

So, I have a nitpicky problem with the line "We used to date." in regards to the Arrow. Um, Laurel, you dated OLIVER. Before he was ever the Arrow. You technically never dated the Arrow. Tried to get him arrested? Yes. Worked with him to catch bad guys? Yep. But dated? Yeah no, you dated a cheating manchild named Oliver Queen. Arrow came 5 years later.

[catrox14]

So, I have a nitpicky problem with the line "We used to date." in regards to the Arrow. Um, Laurel, you dated OLIVER. Before he was ever the Arrow. You technically never dated the Arrow. Tried to get him arrested? Yes. Worked with him to catch bad guys? Yep. But dated? Yeah no, you dated a cheating manchild named Oliver Queen. Arrow came 5 years later.

 

Oh wow. You know what that makes me think about.  It's going all the way back to my theory that Laurel is batcrap crazy and is quite literally attempting to steal Sara's life.  Because you know who DID actually date the Arrow? Sara. 

 

I'm starting to really hope that Laurel has become delusional at this point and is starting to believe she is actually Sara.

[apinknightmare]

So, I have a nitpicky problem with the line "We used to date." in regards to the Arrow. Um, Laurel, you dated OLIVER. Before he was ever the Arrow. You technically never dated the Arrow. Tried to get him arrested? Yes. Worked with him to catch bad guys? Yep. But dated? Yeah no, you dated a cheating manchild named Oliver Queen. Arrow came 5 years later.

 

The Arrow is Oliver Queen, and she did date Oliver Queen, regardless of how long ago or how much he's gone through since then.

[Princess Vanellope]

The Arrow is Oliver Queen, and she did date Oliver Queen, regardless of how long ago or how much he's gone through since then.

Like I said, just me being nitpicky. :). I thought it was a bit of a careless line regardless because Ted isn't exactly a dummy. I'm sure he could put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Arrow=guy Laurel dated=Oliver Queen. Just my opinion.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Princess Vanellope

[catrox14]

The Arrow is Oliver Queen, and she did date Oliver Queen, regardless of how long ago or how much he's gone through since then.

 

In that moment I'm not sure she was actually answering the question from that perspective. IMO she was trying to impress Ted by saying she dated The Arrow. And that does fit with her suddenly loving Oliver that much more when she realized he was the Arrow. /hork

[apinknightmare]

In that moment I'm not sure she was actually answering the question from that perspective. IMO she was trying to impress Ted by saying she dated The Arrow. And that does fit with her suddenly loving Oliver that much more when she realized he was the Arrow. /hork

 

Why would having dated the Arrow impress Ted? Seemed like he thought Oliver was a hypocritical little shit. I think she just gave the quickest answer to explain how they knew each other.

[Shanna]

Oh wow. You know what that makes me think about. It's going all the way back to my theory that Laurel is batcrap crazy and is quite literally attempting to steal Sara's life. Because you know who DID actually date the Arrow? Sara.

I'm starting to really hope that Laurel has become delusional at this point and is starting to believe she is actually Sara.

That would be so soapy and I could totally get behind it. Like ringer, with arrows.

[catrox14]

Why would having dated the Arrow impress Ted? Seemed like he thought Oliver was a hypocritical little shit. I think she just gave the quickest answer to explain how they knew each other.

 

Maybe impress is the wrong word. Competitiveness? Trying to show that she thinks vigilantes are hot?  You are asking me to explain how Laurel's mind works after 2.5 seasons and I cannot. But from what I've seen of her to this point my theory does fit in with the rest of her shenanigans that make zero sense. 

[Amelie06]

I wasn't loving this episode of CSI: Arrow. I know Felicity is crazy smart, but I call bullshit on her forensic knowledge. I can't believe that she basically confirmed Roy did it with virtually no evidence but the circumstantial nonsense she herself ginned up!

 

I actually didn't mind the Roy story too much. Colton Haynes did a good job in all the scenes when we really needed to feel for Roy. 

 

Laurel is killing this show for me. The writers are really trying to rehab her character but it is too late for me.

 

I hated the way Diggle was acting like a Mean Girl in this episode. He all but yelled at Roy, "You can't sit with us!" He has a lousy attitude about teams. First sign of trouble, don't even look into it, just start bleating on about justice. Come on Dig, you're better than this. Don't let Oliver be the reasonable one in your conversation! Ever.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Amelie06

[BunsenBurner]

Finally watched this episode with friends who also watch Arrow. The big question everyone asked was did Laurel kill Sara? They have come to the conclusion that she is schizophrenic and that she would would be the perfect killer.

Other things not mentioned or I don't remember seeing it here:

* Liked that Laurel called Felicity but

* when Felicity answered by not saying anything we all laughed. Don't people usually say something like hello? When she heard everyone talking did she put it on mute before she put it on speaker because it didn't look like it. Suspension of disbelief?

* There is usually no Statute of Limitations on Murder so how was Laurel able to clear that away? Magic?

* It was totally out of character for Laurel to not try and kill Roy after he admitted to killing Sara. My friends were roaring at that one. There was some drinking going on during this episode.

On the whole it was not bad but it was not good. We all thought they could use some new writers. The actors are good the writing stinks.

Had to edit because I'm having a hard time typing.

Edited November 14, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[apinknightmare]

* There is usually no Statute of Limitations on Murder so how was Laurel able to clear that away?  Magic?

 

Ted didn't kill the guy, did he? I thought it was his partner. I think she made sure he wouldn't get prosecuted for the vigilantism.

[BunsenBurner]

^^^^

As I said there was some drinking involved!  You are most probably right 

[Tangerine]

Why would having dated the Arrow impress Ted? Seemed like he thought Oliver was a hypocritical little shit. I think she just gave the quickest answer to explain how they knew each other.

 

You know what would have been great? If we had moment where she had to stop, think about it and answered with "It's a long story" or "You don't want to know." That kind of self-awareness really would have endeared Laurel just a tad to me. But no, we got that ill-advised tidbit instead.

 

I had kind of hoped that if the show was going to reference previous vigilantes that it would have been Alex Kingston's Dinah Lance. That character remains a tragic waste of Alex Kingston.

 

Boxing glove arrow was really the best part of this episode.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Tangerine

[JenMcSnark]

Or how about "We've had our run-ins."  Which is accurate for her relationship with Ollie, Oliver, and the Arrow.  Not to mention brief and to the point.

[catrox14]

And does not give away Oliver identity.

[Kymmi]

I finally watched the episode and still don't understand what the moment we've been waiting for since the first episode was.  Anyone?

 

I didn't hate it as much as I thought it was, and I'm actually looking forward to the next episode.  So that's something!  :-)

[DrSpaceman10]

I finally watched the episode and still don't understand what the moment we've been waiting for since the first episode was.  Anyone?

 

The boxing glove arrow, I think.

Edited November 14, 2014 by drspaceman10

[apinknightmare]

And does not give away Oliver identity.

 

I don't think she even gave a second thought to whether or not she was giving away his identity (I'm not even sure if she cared at the moment), which I thought was another entry onto the long list of reasons why she couldn't or shouldn't be a vigilante that this point in time: she's careless, and she doesn't think.

[catrox14]

I don't think she even gave a second thought to whether or not she was giving away his identity (I'm not even sure if she cared at the moment), which I thought was another entry onto the long list of reasons why she couldn't or shouldn't be a vigilante that this point in time: she's careless, and she doesn't think.

 

And that is precisely my original point. It's stupid for her to say what she said. IMO she should have been smarter, more thoughtful about her answer.  She is reckless/insouciant, or deliberately trying to give away Oliver's cover.

[apinknightmare]

Ultimately I think the writers thought it would be cute if she said "we used to date," so she said "we used to date" and damn the consequences.

[formerlyfreedom]

As a reminder:

The repeated bashing on Laurel the character and Katie Cassidy the actress has crossed the line. You don't have to like Laurel or Katie Cassidy, just as other posters are not required to hate either of them. Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted. There are people who are not comfortable with reading in here because of the vitriol against the character and actress, and frankly, that includes the mods. The tone of a number of the Laurel-hating posts leaves much to be desired, so reel it in please, and please note, posts may be deleted or edited at mod discretion.

Your mods,

@Lisin, @MostlyC, @SilverStormm, and

[yellowfred]

I actually don't think the "we used to date" line puts Oliver's secret identity in jeopardy.  I mean, in real life, people don't tend to know each other's entire dating history.  When they met, Ted didn't even know who Laurel was, so the odds of him having some kind of encyclopedic knowledge of all the men she's dated and what happened to them are pretty low. 

[Shanna]

I actually don't think the "we used to date" line puts Oliver's secret identity in jeopardy. I mean, in real life, people don't tend to know each other's entire dating history.

When your dating history is mostly billionaire playboys who were celebrities for that and being stranded on an island I think all he would have to Do is google her to find out it is Oliver.

[tv echo]

Regarding the "We used to date" statement (for which I blame the writers), I read somewhere a defense argument that Ted Grant would not have known the identity of Laurel's exes and would be too respectful of her to investigate her background.  However, that argument would only work if Laurel's exes were all nobodies (as Shanna noted above).

 

The Queens are or were the most prominent family in Starling City.  The life, exploits and loves of Oliver Queen would've been all over the media, much like George Clooney or JFK Jr.  (Even Felicity's mother knew that Oliver Queen was a millionaire.)  Pics of him and his date - likely Laurel - at various events would've been posted in all the society pages. 

 

Even if Ted was not up on celebrity or society news, seven years ago the deaths of Robert and Oliver Queen would've been front page headlines in local, national and world news.  The death of their passenger, Sara Lance, would also have been reported and, since she was a relative nobody, she would've been described by her relationship to the Queens - as the sister of Oliver Queen's girlfriend, Laurel Lance.  People would've speculated as to why she was on that trip with the Queens.  It would've been the talk of Starling City. 

 

In addition, two years ago, the trial of Moira Queen also would've been front page headlines.  The prosecution team and defense lawyers would've been identified and I'm sure some intrepid reporter would've recognized that one of the prosecutors, Laurel Lance, was the ex-girlfriend of the defendant's son. 

 

So unless Ted was living under a rock all his life, he would know that one of Laurel's exes was Oliver Queen.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean that he would immediately interpret Laurel's statement to refer to Oliver because she could have other exes.  But if he wanted to, it wouldn't be that hard to identify all of Laurel's exes or to connect the dots to Oliver's return.  Therefore, yes, it was a stupid statement for her to make.

 

Though not as egregious a misstep as keeping Sara's death a secret for no reason, this statement by Laurel is another example of sloppy writing this season.  The writers probably thought it was just a clever quip to throw into the dialogue.  And clever quips, cool stunts and cute Easter eggs are enough to keep fans happy, right?  Forget about story consistency or character development...

 

Regarding Oliver's hypocrisy, I think it's a case of "do as I say and not as I do".  He knows he has acted wrongly in the past.  He thinks he's on a path that ends in death, so he doesn't want anyone else to take that same path.  Picking up from bethy's comment above, I'm going to address Oliver's controlling personality in the Oliver thread.

Edited November 14, 2014 by tv echo

[Delphi]

I have to agree with yellowfred, I seriously doubt when laurel went to the gym Ted was all, "Laurel Lance!? The disgraced detectives daughter who used to date Tommy Merlyn AND his best friend Oliver Queen!?" It really makes n sense, tell me the partners of some billionaires kids, who are Donald Trumps kids dating, I dunno. I doubt Ted knows and I doubt he cares.

On a Diggle note I have to bring up ARGUS, the crazy former murderers with bombs in their heads to make sure they kill the right folk, the people that he works with when its convenient for him. Like really? Babymomma can do all the killing she wants if it's for a slimmed down psychopath but a forcibly drugged up kid with no control or memory goes to jail. Shut up Dig.

[tv echo]

I have to agree with yellowfred, I seriously doubt when laurel went to the gym Ted was all, "Laurel Lance!? The disgraced detectives daughter who used to date Tommy Merlyn AND his best friend Oliver Queen!?" It really makes n sense, tell me the partners of some billionaires kids, who are Donald Trumps kids dating, I dunno. I doubt Ted knows and I doubt he cares.

I don't know who Donald Trump's kids are dating, but if they made headline news, I'd read or hear about it, and then I would know.

 

So if Donald Trump and his son were killed on a boating trip, along with a woman who was identified as the sister of his son's girlfriend, also identified, then it would be headline news and, yes, I'd then know their names and relationship to the Trumps.  If Trump's wife was put on trial for conspiracy and murder, and the prosecution team included their son's ex-girlfriend, then it would be big news and, yes, I'd also then know her name and relationship to the Trumps.

 

Ted seems like someone who's involved with people and cares about the city.  So I'd think that he would keep up with the news, what's going on around town, and what's happened to a prominent family like the Queens, esp. since Moira's trial involved the destruction of the Glades.

[catrox14]

I have to agree with yellowfred, I seriously doubt when laurel went to the gym Ted was all, "Laurel Lance!? The disgraced detectives daughter who used to date Tommy Merlyn AND his best friend Oliver Queen!?" It really makes n sense, tell me the partners of some billionaires kids, who are Donald Trumps kids dating, I dunno. I doubt Ted knows and I doubt he cares.

On a Diggle note I have to bring up ARGUS, the crazy former murderers with bombs in their heads to make sure they kill the right folk, the people that he works with when its convenient for him. Like really? Babymomma can do all the killing she wants if it's for a slimmed down psychopath but a forcibly drugged up kid with no control or memory goes to jail. Shut up Dig.

The issue IMO is not if Ted cares about Laurel dating history. It's about Laurel's responsibility as a quasi-member of Team Arrow and supposed friend of Oliver, to protect his identity. Oliver made it clear in the Barry Allen episodes it was not Felicity's secret to tell. Felicity only told Barry because he had the best chance to try and save Oliver's life but it pissed Oliver off nonetheless.

In this case Laurel had no compelling life or death reason to say she dated the Arrow. Ted didn't strike me as an uninformed nitwit. As TV Echo laid out it wouldn't take but a minute of google-fu for Ted to put it together. And even if Ted doesn't, he might mention it off handedly to some one else who might be interested enough to put two and two together.

The show can't seem to make up its mind whether or not Laurel appreciates the gravity of Oliver's need for secrecy. She wanted to reveal that she thought she knew until Detective Lance made her rethink things. Then she shows up in Lair and seems to grasp that it's a secret and needs to stay that way. So why she revealed an incredibly personal connection to The Arrow escapes me other than it must be intentional.

[dtissagirl]

I really think it was a case of the writers making a funny without trying to think of any of the consequences. It ties with Guggenheim saying in an interview that Oliver and Laurel are in a post-relationship phase of their lives. I mean, "we used to date" literally means they are in a post-relationship phase.

 

I do agree that it makes Laurel Arrow's Olympic champion at the Worst Secret Keeper competition. Oliver gets silver.

[apinknightmare]

I really think it was a case of the writers making a funny without trying to think of any of the consequences. It ties with Guggenheim saying in an interview that Oliver and Laurel are in a post-relationship phase of their lives. I mean, "we used to date" literally means they are in a post-relationship phase.

 

I do agree that it makes Laurel Arrow's Olympic champion at the Worst Secret Keeper competition. Oliver gets silver.

 

Yeah, I wrote something similar above. I think they just wanted Laurel to have a "We used to date" line, so she did.

 

Honestly, I won't get too picky about it because I felt so relieved after - I was certain that the "nice moment" or whatever the EPs said O&L were going to have was going to be related to that line - like Oliver was going to try to convince her that their relationship deserved a summary that was...more than that or something. My relief was so strong I couldn't bring myself to care about the rest, haha.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Count me in as someone who saw nothing but barely there tolerance between Oliver and Laurel. Maybe it's because the episode bored me, and I wasn't really paying attention, but I didn't even realize the possible 'shippy overtones until I read the posts here [and I haven't gone back to rewatch and check because zzzzzzzyawn]. Basically, my favorite part was Ted's reaction to the Arrow/Laurel high school drama: he gives zero fucks.

Edited November 14, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

Honestly, I read no undertones at all. I didn't even see any. Everything was firmly in the friend zone. To me it went along with what the Eps/SA have been saying - post-relationship, still friends, together but not together. It wasn't a warm and fuzzy interaction (I would consider it caution). SA and KC weren't even acting like it was. SA was throwing some heart eyes at Felicity. And KC was something in the realm of it at Grant (it was at least respect which was new).

Edited November 14, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[catrox14]

Oliver has a terrible mask but it's pretty clear his intentions are to keep his identity a secret. Whether he is successful is not the issue. The people that know about Oliver are those that 1) He had done enough research to believe he could trust or just believed he could 2) he was compelled to trust because of life and death situations or 3)they figured it out on their own or discovered it inadvertently i.e Vertigo, Slade, helena, Sara, Moira, Malcolm, Laurel.

And I don't trust these writers as far as I can throw them that Laurel saying "we used to date" is the dialogue that says they are over. IMO she still looks at him as though she still wants to be with him.

[Shanna]

And I don't trust these writers as far as I can throw them that Laurel saying "we used to date" is the dialogue that says they are over. IMO she still looks at him as though she still wants to be with him.

I do think it says something about where her head is that her first thought in telling Ted how she knows him is that they used to Date. I think Oliver would have said they were old friends, because he just doesn't feel that way about her at all anymore IMO. I think he would have gone for the vague term of friends even if his secret identity wasn't at risk. Which it was. Edited November 14, 2014 by Shanna

[NumberCruncher]

And I don't trust these writers as far as I can throw them that Laurel saying "we used to date" is the dialogue that says they are over. IMO she still looks at him as though she still wants to be with him.

That could be an acting choice on Katie's part, which makes sense since she believes the whole "soulmate" thing, but that's not how Stephen played it.