S04.E07: The Snow Queen

[FurryFury]

Killing him offscreen after resurrecting him offscreen would be too much even for this show... Oh whom am I kidding, nothing's too much for this show.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Is it evil of me that i want the Snow Queen to win? Her, Emma and Elsa frolicking around Storybrook sends me to a weird visual place.

[FurryFury]

Is it evil of me that i want the Snow Queen to win?

 

Probably somewhat evil (she did imprison Anna and freeze Marian), but I'm totally with you. After Snow turned on Emma so quickly (and idiotically), I'm starting to think Ingrid could be a better big sister/mother figure. At least much more fun, that's for sure.

Edited November 10, 2014 by FurryFury

[Chicken Wing]

For fuck's sake, will someone please give Elsa a change of clothes already?

[Spartan Girl]

As much as I loved the Princess Mommy and Me club, I'm too pissed off at Snow to enjoy it.  Seriously, I expected better from her.  Not just because of her reaction to Emma's powers and turning on her for five seconds, but by having the nerve to tell David that "they" failed.  As far as I could see Snow was the only one that lashed out at Emma.  David didn't screw up this time.

 

Speaking of shitty parenting, I almost feel vindicated by proof that Elsa and Anna's parents -- or at least their mother -- sucked.  Erasing everyone's memories of both your sisters?  Really Gerda?  Really?  This on top of blaming Elsa for Anna's accident and keeping the two of them separated, turning Elsa into a nervous wreck...it's almost enough to make me feel sorry for Ingrid/Snow Queen.

 

Speaking of which, was shocked to see Creepy Lizzie from Walking Dead play Ingrid.  Good casting.

[stealinghome]

Killing him offscreen after resurrecting him offscreen would be too much even for this show... Oh whom am I kidding, nothing's too much for this show.

You mean the way the wraith totally sucked his soul out in 2x01 and then somehow he was mysteriously re-souled and alive in 2x21/22? ;)

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I'm still wondering what was the point of reviving him if we never even learned how. To make Mulan suffer, I guess.

[Joanh23]

Loved the Emma/Snow Queen scene in the police station - you could just see that everything she said Emma has probably thought about it at some stage it just makes a big difference to have someone say it out loud like that.  It's really tragic that Emma's relationship with Snow has come to such a low as this episode - Emma's relationship with MM was one of my favorite things in S1 - I really hope we get some good (and by good I mean angsty) conversations between Emma and her parents. 

I never thought I'd say this but I'm liking Regina much more than Robin in this whole OQ fiasco.  I just can't buy that Robin loves Regina so much after basically a week of dating (if even that) - and also can he at least mention his son at some stage!

Love Rumple and the Snow Queen - Rumple seems to be going full on evil now and I'm kind of scared to see what he'll do next.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about how they keep making Snow so insensitive when she talks.  Then I was thinking back to that scene with Cinderella.  I was so happy to see her again, but she has known Snow for so long, and yet the writers had her say that first-time mothers remark... are all the good guys supposed to be insensitive by nature?  It was like Granny and Grumpy insisting Snow fix the electrical grid a few days after giving birth.  What the freak'in hell.  Now, I don't blame Cinderella for forgetting briefly, but she would have corrected her mistake right away.  She was standing there the entire time Snow was trying to explain to Emma that she knows she is not a first-time mother.  Yet it seems like we were supposed to forget Cinderella and Aurora were standing right there since the camera zoomed in on Snow and Emma like they were alone while Cinders and Aurora stayed mute.  

 

The reprimanding of Emma after the lamp-post could have been cushioned if Snow had immediately retracted it, which she would have.  But again, they just had her standing there mute.  If they wanted to have Henry there, why did he do or say nothing?  If it was Regina, he would have made a speech about how she didn't mean it.  If they wanted to distance him from Emma, they could have used Henry moving to Regina's to do that.  In any regular episode, Charming would have told Snow to stay and he would try to talk to Emma.  Or they would send Hook after her.  But nope, everyone stood there so Emma could run off crying.

 

Now, they did an awesome job of making it understandable why Emma would feel hurt by what happened at the baby class, and driving away had nothing to do with not loving her family, or even blaming them for the look of fear.  It was clear that she was not jealous of the baby, but she couldn't help but feel hurt since she missed out on all that.  Which is completely understandable.  At no point did I feel I was supposed to hate her or be angry at her for believing the Snow Queen.  Yet everything they had Snow do, from the reprimanding of Emma with the light-post or the line "We messed up", to her extreme look of fear, to her lack of response at Emma being hurt, makes the viewers angry at her.  And we get no scenes from her perspective, explaining her feelings, expressing what regrets she might have, showing how frustrated she must be at herself.  It just felt very unbalanced.  Even in the Hook episode with the hand, we got plenty of scenes where he looked appalled with himself, disappointed, realizing he made a huge mistake, etc.   But nope, none of that is necessary for Snow.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[DeLurker]

 

Let me get this straight - We had to listen to Robin wax on about how his wife inspired him to go from a ne'er-do-well to a man of honor living a life with meaning.

Then repeatedly yammers on how all his life he's lived by a code forgetting the fact that he switched codes at some point back.  Writers, please read what you wrote and try to make sense within the same episode.

 

I am tired of the Snow Queen's breasticles being prominently shown in every scene with her in it.  Elizabeth Mitchell is more interesting than her bosom.

 

 

how about downing a shot every time Rumple says "dearie"

I would kill in real life if someone called me dearie, but I could listen to RC say it endlessly.

[Rumsy4]

Well, Snow's second "Emma" after the pole hit David was the realization that she had messed up. She also later admitted that "we" had failed Emma (she probably did think that everyone had feared Emma in that moment). It's like Snow understands in theory that Emma is her daughter, but she seems to have completely lost the bond she once shared with her daughter. She doesn't get Emma's low self-esteem and years of abandonment issues, and she lacks the sensitivity to figure it out. She is too focussed on her own guilt, and reacts defensively whenever the Wardrobe issue is brought up. I really hope the writers will deal with this at some point.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rumsy4

[angelwoody]

As much as I loved the Princess Mommy and Me club, I'm too pissed off at Snow to enjoy it.  Seriously, I expected better from her.  Not just because of her reaction to Emma's powers and turning on her for five seconds, but by having the nerve to tell David that "they" failed.  As far as I could see Snow was the only one that lashed out at Emma.  David didn't screw up this time.

 

Speaking of shitty parenting, I almost feel vindicated by proof that Elsa and Anna's parents -- or at least their mother -- sucked.  Erasing everyone's memories of both your sisters?  Really Gerda?  Really?  This on top of blaming Elsa for Anna's accident and keeping the two of them separated, turning Elsa into a nervous wreck...it's almost enough to make me feel sorry for Ingrid/Snow Queen.

 

Speaking of which, was shocked to see Creepy Lizzie from Walking Dead play Ingrid.  Good casting.

It actually went a little ways to explaining Elsa's parents' extreme reaction to her powers in Frozen.  Gerda wasn't just jumping to the random conclusion that Elsa could seriously injure Anna or worse.  She knew that one of her own sisters (with the same power) accidentally killed the other.  It doesn't excuse their treatment of Elsa, but it gives a reason for the extreme reaction.

[RadioGirl27]

This episode was better that the last two (not that it was that difficult) and, if I block the scenes with Robin and Regina, I even enjoyed it. But it had a lot of problems. The writers keep destroying characters for the sake of the plot. This week was Snow's turn, just like episode 4 was Hook's and episode 5 was Emma's. But the flashbacks were good, and, for the first time, their sobbing backstory for the villian makes sense. Elizabeth Mitchell is totally killing it. I have even forgiven her for Revolution.

I think the DQ is after something more than just a replacement for her sisters. The thing with the ribbons and what Rumple said about the power of the sisterly bond made me think in Charmed and The Power of Three.
 

Hell, I'd be fine if Emma, Elsa and Ingrid actually decided to be sisters. Charming and Hook (ohmigod Charming saved Hook from the lamppost) can come for the spinoff too. Emma, Elsa, Hook and Charming can run the magical detective agency and Ingrid can dispense ice cream and advice.

I would watch the hell of that show.
 

Loved the Princess Bride reference in tonight's episode!

Which one? I'm a bit slow today and I didn't find it.

Edited November 10, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Camera One]

Sadly, I think you're right XrystalPond.  They're making up the Rules of the Hat as they go along, so the final ingredient could be anything.  Most likely something which will cause more drama.  I thought the whole Snow Queen gets Storybrooke while Rumple gets the World bit was unnecessary.  Hopefully, that was supposed to be metaphorical?  

 

The Snow Queen said she had the hat longer than Rumple.  Does that mean she was able to open it too?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

I finally watched this episode, and unfortunately, I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I know we like to make fun of the writers for always trying to create these elaborate plots that end up making no sense, but I thought the worst thing about the writing in this episode was just the basic dialogue.

 

Everyone in this thread has already brought up Snow's atrocious lines, but I think almost all of the characters suffered from some really bad dialogue. Did Adam and Eddy write this episode? If so, ouch. They're supposed to be the show runners, yet, they write some of the most awkward and unrealistic conversations. The interrogation scene between Emma and the Snow Queen should have been an extreme cat and mouse tease with so much drama and tension, but they somehow jump from Emma being Ms. I'm-Not-Letting-You-Get-Under-My-Skin to her physically pacing back and forth in the room in under 1 minute. I think there was a cut in there somewhere to another scene, but it still seemed jarring. Maybe you guys should take a page from one of the masters of character dialogue - Tarantino - and figure out how to create a conversation that can sustain itself longer than 3 minutes without combusting into a plot transition.

 

The conversations in Arendelle were almost too saccharine and cutesy for my liking, but they tend to write the Fairy Tale flashbacks like that occasionally, I guess. But seriously, how about we not have the three Arendelle sisters gleefully talk about sisterhood 10 seconds after one of them killed a man? Who is lying dead 10 feet from them...

 

Then there's Hook's bringing up his devilishly handsome line again. The first time they wrote that it was kind of funny. The second time was a decent call back, but ultimately a throwaway line I could have done without. A third time? Come on, now. Come up with something more creative. (I'm pretty sure every time that line has come up, it has been in an Adam & Eddy script, too.) And some of the random pop culture references or cheesy jokes didn't seem to fit organically in the conversations, either. Emma's random call out to The Lord of the Rings and Henry's "joke" about getting married seemed out of place.

 

I will give credit to them for actually allowing the Snow Queen to bring up how Emma is more valued as being the Savior than being a daughter. I also appreciated Hook reaching out to Emma and not even noticing a falling light post about to land on his head.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Curio

[myril]

In the scene with the three sisters and Rumple, was that Mjolnir in the background?

 

Yup, that was Mjolnir in some shots. Not to be mistaken with some battle ax visible in other shots of the scene

. 

 

I am tired of the Snow Queen's breasticles being prominently shown in every scene with her in it.  Elizabeth Mitchell is more interesting than her bosom.

 

I like boobs of all shape and sizes, I like seeing them, but they manage to test even my level of enjoyment.

[Mari]

Okay, I've thought about it now.

 

I still don't get how having the entire kingdom  completely forgetting about Gerda's sisters was a good plan.  What exactly would be wrong with giving the Duke a memory potion to forget about Ingrid's powers, and then having the two sisters "die" in a tragic, unavoidable accident?

 

How is that more trouble for Arendelle than having an entire kingdom forget about their princesses?  And what about all of the people not in Arendelle?  They never heard about the three princesses?

 

Did I miss something, or did A&E just completely go off the rails again for PLOT?

[moviewhore]

Snow can fuckoff and die now.  I haven't seen a mom be so hateful and uncaring towards her child on a TV show.  I really don't think she gives two shits about Emma herself but can front arund David to make herself look good.  At this point Emma can turn her mom into a monkey or a pile of goo and I'll cheer.  Then she can go off with Elsa and Snow Queen.

[Camera One]

I will give credit to them actually allowing the Snow Queen to bring up how Emma is more valued as being the Savior than being a daughter.

 

I really agree with your other points, but I do not buy that Snow and Charming value Emma more as a Savior than a daughter.  I can somewhat accept that they might value/relate to her more as a dear friend than a daughter, or that they might place more pride in the Savior aspect of her than is warranted, but I definitely don't think they care about Emma because she's the Savior, or even that they see her as the Saviour on a regular day-to-day basis.

 

Did I miss something, or did A&E just completely go off the rails again for PLOT?

 

Well, they had to give a reason why no one in the original film remembers this plot about the Snow Queen.  The real reason is that it never happened, so the only route for writing is everyone had amnesia.

[FurryFury]

But nobody really knew about Ingrid's powers! Except for the Duke and the family, and by the time of Frozen, the latter are all dead. Wiping out the Duke's memory would have been enough. 

[Camera One]

I guess they felt the need to explain why Elsa and Anna's two aunts were never mentioned, or why no one ever mentioned that ice powers run in the family?

[Curio]

I really agree with your other points, but I do not buy that Snow and Charming value Emma more as a Savior than a daughter.  I can somewhat accept that they might value/relate to her more as a dear friend than a daughter, or that they might place more pride in the Savior aspect of her than is warranted, but I definitely don't think they care about Emma because she's the Savior, or even that they see her as the Saviour on a regular day-to-day basis.

 

No I'm with you - I actually don't believe Snow and Charming think of Emma only as a convenient Savior. I'm just impressed Adam & Eddy had the self-awareness to throw that line into their script, because that means they might actually regret how they wrote Snow and Charming's behavior during the missing year where they barely showed any scenes of them grieving their lost daughter.

[Camera One]

I really hope they regret it too, Curio.  I just wish the way they presented Snow in this episode could have shown it.  My only hope left is that next episode will be heavy on making up for never saying Snow and Charming missed Emma during the Missing Year.

[Shanna Marie]

And when Snow replies to Emma's comments about baby Snowflake having so much stuff with "we wanted to give him everything", that just hit Emma where it hurt (though not in anyway intentional by Snow).

Okay, that's what had me blaming Snow for the boiling milk. It wasn't so much her reaction as it was what her reaction suggested. It gave the impression that she'd never even once considered that Emma might have totally understandable and natural feelings about the extreme difference between her upbringing and her brother's upbringing. We're not talking a "does the fact that we couldn't afford to buy you a car when you were a teenager mean that your brother shouldn't get one when he's in high school and we can afford it?" situation here. It's a case of one kid getting everything and the other growing up alone and unloved, with nothing but a baby blanket, and whether or not that's what they wanted to happen to her or meant to happen to her, it's what did happen, and seeing what she missed out on has got to hurt. Snow was utterly lacking in sensitivity in the way she handled it. Heck, I think it would have been tacky if it hadn't been so extreme, if it had just been a case of them being poor with one kid and had money with the next. You wouldn't have said to the older kid that you wanted to give the younger kid everything when the older kid is well aware that she didn't get much of anything. There are so many other, better responses to Emma's remark, like saying something about how this world has so many baby things available that they don't have in the Enchanted Forest.

 

It was just the overall impression that she hadn't even considered that Baby Do-Over might be a touchy subject for Emma, and then getting freaked out and scared by the fact that Emma reacted emotionally in a way that manifested magically that made me angry at Snow. She set her off with her lack of sensitivity, then blamed her for reacting.

[Leia1979]

Was Emma's cut on her neck by icicle significant?  

 

Excellent question! I thought it was significant at the time, but then it was never addressed and I totally forgot about it. Maybe that is what caused Emma's powers to start to go into overdrive when we haven't seen that before. Although, I guess that doesn't explain the boiling bottle, since that happened first.

 

Which reminds me of one more thing. When David called to say DQ was in the clock tower, he said the trail only went up. I didn't think ice trails were directional.

[Camera One]

It was just the overall impression that she hadn't even considered that Baby Do-Over might be a touchy subject for Emma, and then getting freaked out and scared by the fact that Emma reacted emotionally in a way that manifested magically that made me angry at Snow. She set her off with her lack of sensitivity, then blamed her for reacting.

 

The "giving the baby everything" comment definitely impacted Emma emotionally.  I was hoping Snow would realize that was insensitive after saying it, but she didn't seem to.  I don't see how Snow blamed Emma for reacting, though.  She was surprised at the milk boiling and she showed fear, but she didn't blame Emma in that scene.  It was later yelling after the lamp-post which seemed accusatory.

[Mari]

I guess they felt the need to explain why Elsa and Anna's two aunts were never mentioned, or why no one ever mentioned that ice powers run in the family?

Maybe.  But would it really be surprising that they never mentioned the sisters that "died" in a horrible, tragic way?  Especially since chances are pretty good Gerda felt horrible and guilty about it, even if she did think it was necessary when she did it--people tend not to bring up things they feel are shameful to their children.

 

And bringing up Ingrid and her ice powers would likely have just made Elsa more afraid, especially of her mother, if she knew about her.  Then, the Arendelle parents died when the girls were very young.

 

The servants wouldn't know about any of it, and after years of not talking about Ingrid and Hilda, what would they say?

 

 

 

It was just the overall impression that she hadn't even considered that Baby Do-Over might be a touchy subject for Emma, and then getting freaked out and scared by the fact that Emma reacted emotionally in a way that manifested magically that made me angry at Snow. She set her off with her lack of sensitivity, then blamed her for reacting.

It is, however, consistent with how they've written Snow since the Echo Cave episode.  Snow pretty consistently doesn't think about Emma unless Emma is in the room, or unless Emma is useful.

 

And while Mary Margaret had a pretty good intuitive grasp of Emma, Mary Snowgret hasn't.  Mary Margaret was lonely, and unloved, and had some of that in common with Emma, even if her reaction to things was more hopeful. 

 

Mary Snowgret had expectations.  They weren't met.  And her experiences with people are so different than Emma's that she isn't able to figure out what Emma's reactions would be, while at the same time most likely finding dealing with what she wanted, but will never happen painful enough that she doesn't actually think about Emma's pain.

 

It's self-defensive, but it makes sense.

[Camera One]

The servants wouldn't know about any of it, and after years of not talking about Ingrid and Hilda, what would they say?

 

There would still have been talk/gossip about the mysterious older sister who never showed her face, if the Rock Trolls didn't erase everyone's memories, I suppose.  And the mystery of what happened to the two sisters would have become legend.

 

So are we to assume that Gerda retained her memories and remember everything then?  Or is it still ambiguous.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[LucidDreamer]

The character assassination of Robin Hood is reaching Regina "death toll" levels now... Wow, is that painful to watch!  I am somewhat indifferent to the whole Regina/Robin stuff, but that scene where he macks on her after Will talks to him about Marian and her love and support -- that was downright disgusting.

 

Also, way to character assassinate Gerda (aka Elsa and Anna's mom, who really shouldn't be named Gerda anyway).  Two for two in the "throw these characters under the bus" antics, show.

Edited November 10, 2014 by LucidDreamer

[Camera One]

So Aurora's mother was the original Aurora.  So does that mean her father was the original Philip?  And then she marries a Philip too.  And they name their son Philip as well?  I want an alternate episode to see what Aurora did the rest of the day.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[queenbee]

I hate Robin with the fire of a thousand suns. I just... don't understand what they are doing with this character and relationship. What I think they think they are showing is a man so overwhelmed with love for his new partner that he can no longer control himself. But what I see is a man lacking in moral courage, pursuing a relationship with a woman he barely knows for reasons I cannot even fathom. They don't even know each other! But I am a broken record now so I am moving on.

 

I did like Ingrid's backstory, or at least the tail end of the flashbacks. I felt as though it was dragging earlier in the episode. And I love Rumple. Never change.

 

I also felt however that there was a bit of character ret-conning going on. I feel that there are some legitimate issues finally being acknowledged and explored re Emma's relationship with her parents, particularly Snow, as well as Emma's feelings about the new baby. However, I'm not sure that there has really been enough groundwork done to suggest that Emma would lose control of her magic like that in a way oh-so similar to Elsa, nor did I feel that there was enough groundwork done to suggest that Emma's family actually felt afraid of her before this episode. I am also  unsure that what we've previously seen of Rumple indicates that he desires world domination, although I can sort of see that he might want to leave Storybrooke, with both magic and marriage intact. However, I would believe that this would be more motivated by cowardice -- Rumple wants to be powerful enough that he can feel safe and in control over others. Magic in a land without magic would allow him to do that, I suppose. But it still felt as though the groundwork hasn't been done for this new motivation either.

[Souris]

I thought the worst thing about the writing in this episode was just the basic dialogue.

 

Everyone in this thread has already brought up Snow's atrocious lines, but I think almost all of the characters suffered from some really bad dialogue. Did Adam and Eddy write this episode? If so, ouch. They're supposed to be the show runners, yet, they write some of the most awkward and unrealistic conversations.

 

YES! The dialogue in this ep was generally atrocious, so much so that it was actively jarring to me. Everything was clunky and stilted, more so than I can remember in any previous ep. (I'm not saying this show's dialogue is generally great and sparkling, but it does have its moments, and this ep it was noticeably bad.)

Edited November 10, 2014 by Souris

[iMonrey]

 

I was upset that they didn't address how Ingrid got her powers in the first place. Looks like they never will.

 

The one saving grace to this Frozen storyline is that it does address why Elsa has this power, which is something that was sorely lacking in the movie Frozen, and drove me nuts. It's apparently some kind of genetic thing she got from her mother's side of the family.

 

 

So are we to assume that Gerda retained her memories and remember everything then? Or is it still ambiguous.

 

Based on the above I'm assuming Gerda also lost her memory of Ingrid, otherwise she could have explained to Elsa where the power came from in the first place (although, how she knew about the gloves contradicts that idea).

 

All that said, I'm of the opinion this season would have been far better off without the the Snow Queen despite how in love with Elizabeth Mitchell everyone seems to be (except for me). For one thing Elsa has become superfluous almost immediately after her introduction and is reduced to standing around asking "Where is Anna" all the time. For another thing, the show has been stuck in a loop for four seasons now where the same shit keeps going down over and over again, just with a different villain. After three years of it, the show needed a chance to slow down and breathe and work through some of its issues.

 

It would have been enough to simply bring Elsa to Storybrooke in search of Anna while Emma worked out her shit with her family and with Hook, and while Regina worked out her shit with Robin, and while Wil found his place in the story as well. They had enough going on there for a sufficient and satisfying season but they couldn't break out of their "chase down the villain" mold.

 

And now it looks like they're heading back towards Emma trying to get rid of her powers, which they already did at the end of last season when Zelina took them away. It's all wash, rinse, repeat on this show anymore.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

I thought the worst thing about the writing in this episode was just the basic dialogue.

Everyone in this thread has already brought up Snow's atrocious lines, but I think almost all of the characters suffered from some really bad dialogue. Did Adam and Eddy write this episode? If so, ouch. They're supposed to be the show runners, yet, they write some of the most awkward and unrealistic conversations.

Yes, the flashbacks reminded me of Bleeding Through in quality. The only real redemption it had was the superb acting. The dialog was bad all over the episode too, I agree. There was a certain thoughtlessness to it. Of course, this whole season has been greatly contrived when it comes to what characters do or say. Lots of out-of-character or idiot moments.

Edited November 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

The one saving grace to this Frozen storyline is that it does address why Elsa has this power, which is something that was sorely lacking in the movie Frozen, and drove me nuts. It's apparently some kind of genetic thing she got from her mother's side of the family.

 

Ingrid seems to have been born into her powers.  I thought the scene with Rumple pretty much summed that up when he said her powers were rare.

 

Elsa's powers seems to be the price of magic that the troll was talking about.  I mean erasing everyone's memories, having a child with freezing powers she cannot control and the subsequent doomed trip to the EF...pretty high price.

[Camera One]

So to the Trolls, the price of magic is the eventual universe's response.  To Rumple, the price of magic is whatever you pay him?  

[Mari]

I am also  unsure that what we've previously seen of Rumple indicates that he desires world domination, although I can sort of see that he might want to leave Storybrooke, with both magic and marriage intact. However, I would believe that this would be more motivated by cowardice -- Rumple wants to be powerful enough that he can feel safe and in control over others. Magic in a land without magic would allow him to do that, I suppose. But it still felt as though the groundwork hasn't been done for this new motivation either.

The thing is, if A&E were willing to include the occasional "headcheck" scene, Rumple's motive would be easy to figure out.

 

Last season, he lost his son partly because of the "Dark One" thing.  He then spent months enslaved to Zelena, while out of his mind.

 

Rumple's not a character who deals with  being helpless well.  With the occasional scene, his motive is to become autonomous of the dagger because of the Neal/slavery trauma, but since he is unwilling to be powerless (and, really, who could blame him, since he's made a truck load of enemies), he's trying to overcome the dagger issue.

 

But since they're not, he's just mwahahahaing around and giving Henry odd jobs to do.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Rumple's gives a fig about the price of magic because generally speaking, he doesn't pay because he is so very powerful or whatever.  Even Neal's death was Neal's price because he played with something that was beyond him.  At least that's what I take away from the whole thing.

 

Rumple talking about creating monsters yesterday was just so ugh...

[Camera One]

I like that explanation, Mari.  It's too bad we need to come up with the explanations ourselves for how the characters act. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved the Princess Bride reference in tonight's episode!

Which one? I'm a bit slow today and I didn't find it.

Twu wuv (à la the impressive clergyman)!

When David called to say DQ was in the clock tower, he said the trail only went up. I didn't think ice trails were directional.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the stupidity of that line. Is the clock tower like a Disneyland ride where you can only go up one way and must exit another way? Because a person with magic could never circumvent something like that! Or maybe DQ's ice trail have little arrows etched into them so you can see which way she went. It's also hilarious that they didn't suspect it was a trap as soon as David mentioned her ice trail. Did they forget she also has legs and is capable of, you know, walking like everyone else? The ice trails in the middle of town should have been a warning that she was setting them up.

Also kind of hilarious that they went through so much trouble to find a spell and have Belle translate it from Elvish only to learn that DQ was faking that it worked all along and could've broken it at any time.

[queenbee]

The thing is, if A&E were willing to include the occasional "headcheck" scene, Rumple's motive would be easy to figure out.

 

Last season, he lost his son partly because of the "Dark One" thing.  He then spent months enslaved to Zelena, while out of his mind.

 

Rumple's not a character who deals with  being helpless well.  With the occasional scene, his motive is to become autonomous of the dagger because of the Neal/slavery trauma, but since he is unwilling to be powerless (and, really, who could blame him, since he's made a truck load of enemies), he's trying to overcome the dagger issue.

 

But since they're not, he's just mwahahahaing around and giving Henry odd jobs to do.

Mari, you explained it so much better than I could! I can also see that Rumple would want to leave Storybrooke for a whole host of reasons. It's just that in no way has this been shown to the audience -- apart from going to find his son in Manhattan, Rumple has not indicated the slightest interest in anything outside of Storybrooke. Instead, we are just being told about it.

[Shanna Marie]

I am also  unsure that what we've previously seen of Rumple indicates that he desires world domination, although I can sort of see that he might want to leave Storybrooke, with both magic and marriage intact.

Maybe not world domination, but I could see him wanting to recapture some of the power he had in the Enchanted Forest in this world. There, he seemed to be a global power broker. He had kings and queens coming to him for help and owing him favors. He seemed to have so many rulers more or less in his pocket that he did essentially dominate the world. He just used the kings and queens to carry out whatever he wanted while letting them do the dirty work of day-to-day ruling. Whenever he wanted something, he could pop by and remind them of what they owed him and get what he wanted.

 

Now, he's got that power over a small town in Maine with a mayor.

 

So I could see him wanting to move his influence beyond Storybrooke and have governors, presidents, prime ministers and kings and queens coming to him again.

[regularlyleaded]

However, I'm not sure that there has really been enough groundwork done to suggest that Emma would lose control of her magic like that in a way oh-so similar to Elsa,

As far as laying the groundwork for Emma losing control of her magic, I think that's always been fairly well established, even as far as the pilot episode. When Emma arrived in Storybrooke, Henry was needling Emma enough that even though there was no magic in Storybrooke she made the power lines frizzle, and later in s3 we saw in the flashback of Emma giving birth to Henry that again she made the power in the birthing room fluctuate and spark. Even Rumpy got Emma to use her magic to create a defense shield by having her focus on her emotions. So the connection between Emma, her emotions, and her magic has always been there. I think it's been well established them Emma's magic is deeply intertwined with her emotions.

 

The difference now is that Emma has consciously been working on honing her magical abilities. She uses it more freely and can now access it with much less effort then ever before, and so in a sense she's opened up a floodgate that allows her magic to really get out of control when she feels emotionally out of control because the two things are deeply interconnected. (Emma now knows enough to bring forth her magic more easily, but still lacks the skill to be an expert at controlling it when she feels emotionally overwhelmed.)

 

That's why the Snow Queen was pushing Emma's buttons and trying to rile her up. The Snow Queen knows Emma well enough (she knows her hang-ups and deep-seated fears that come from being a neglected and abandoned child, and that Emma has never dealt with it) that she can get Emma's powers to manifest themselves in a big way if she gets Emma emotionally worked up. And so the Snow Queen hit all those emotionally raw spots that Emma hides from everyone else (and papers over and pushes down and ignores until she can't ignore it anymore) and Snow Queen hit them hard and fast and then twisted the knife. The explosive result blew a literal hole in the sheriff's stations walls because Emma was an emotional pressure cooker just waiting to go off. The Snow Queen took advantage of things she knows still bother Emma even though Emma tries to pretend they don't hurt her, and just doubled down on the pressure, and naturally Emma blew like Krakatoa.

 

nor did I feel that there was enough groundwork done to suggest that Emma's family actually felt afraid of her before this episode.

IMO, they've never done enough between Emma, Snow and Charming for me to really say if they've ever really considered Emma's magic as something to be afraid of before. Emma has only recently started manifesting her magic actively now, and in the past when she's used it in front of them she wasn't out of control and it was always for their benefit. Snow and Charming have always needed her magic to save them and it always benefited them. Hell, the first time Emma manifested her magic for all to see was during Team Princess adventures when she shoved Snow out of the way from Cora's heart-ripping, took Snow's place and then blew Cora away when she was trying to rip her heart from her chest. I think it's different for Snow and Charming to know Emma has magic that can save them, and now, where they are really seeing that Emma has magic that she doesn't really have complete control over yet (because she's a bit of (to put it lightly) an emotional mess) and as a result could hurt them (or others) unintentionally.

Edited November 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

Maybe not world domination, but I could see him wanting to recapture some of the power he had in the Enchanted Forest in this world. There, he seemed to be a global power broker. He had kings and queens coming to him for help and owing him favors. He seemed to have so many rulers more or less in his pocket that he did essentially dominate the world. He just used the kings and queens to carry out whatever he wanted while letting them do the dirty work of day-to-day ruling. Whenever he wanted something, he could pop by and remind them of what they owed him and get what he wanted.

Now, he's got that power over a small town in Maine with a mayor.

So I could see him wanting to move his influence beyond Storybrooke and have governors, presidents, prime ministers and kings and queens coming to him again.

 

But why all of a sudden?  He has not really shown a need/wish for that for a long time now.  Way back when, he was often gaining objects which could eventually help him to find Bae.  What could modern Presidents and Prime Ministers give him?  Money?  Gold?  A nuclear power plant?  There has to be a motivation for why he wants world domination now, at this point in his life.  That's why Mari's explanation makes sense, since the most recent events have been the loss of Neal and the total loss of control by being enslaved by Zelena.  This explanation also allows them to give Rumple some human emotions to work with.  So they throw that in at the end of this episode, even though it has never been in play before, and it just feels very inorganic.  It's probably setup for the next arc, but it's not good storytelling.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I agree with iMonrey (excellent name btw) that with the prominence of DQ, Elsa has become superfluous. She has had nothing much to do the past three episodes except wail about Anna, which is fast turning to be as annoying as Claire's "My baby!" in LOST. I wish they had more scenes of her being a friend to Emma, and help train her in more than a throwaway scene.

[regularlyleaded]

There has to be a motivation for why he wants world domination now, at this point in his life.

But Rumple in one way or another has always craved power. Wanted more power, more knowledge. He accumulates things that could have magical value or that can give him even the smallest amount of leverage or power in any given situation, and even the ones he doesn't understand he locks away in his own private vault.

 

Rumpy was a helpless, kicked around coward and when offered the chance to save Bae from the Ogre Wars and change his powerless lot in life he took it and never let it go. In fact, his thirst and addiction to power overrode anything else in his life. For hundreds of years Rumple has sought more power and knowledge and refused to give it up even for Bae. Even in his search for Bae it was on Rumpy's terms and setup in a way where he could retain his magic and his power. That's one thing about Rumpy that has never changed, that he won't give up his powers. The quest for more power is addictive, never-ending and corrupting, especially for a being of near omnipotence like Rumple who has lived that way for hundreds of years. That Rumpy wants more power, to be free of the dagger which is the only thing that keeps him in check, and also to roam outside the confines of Storybrooke is not at all surprising to me.

Edited November 10, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[ShadowFacts]

 

Camera One, on 10 Nov 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

    Was Emma's cut on her neck by icicle significant? 

 

Excellent question! I thought it was significant at the time, but then it was never addressed and I totally forgot about it. Maybe that is what caused Emma's powers to start to go into overdrive when we haven't seen that before. Although, I guess that doesn't explain the boiling bottle, since that happened first.

 

I immediately thought of Jack on Lost, and I bet Adam and Eddy had that in mind, somehow.

 

Everybody else has covered this episode good and proper.  I think Snow Queen's powers seem to trump anyone else we've seen in Storybrooke currently, so I wonder just how she will be making her exit (I will miss her). 

 

A little thing that stood out to me was how Gold has the 3 ribbons tied neatly and in a lovely box.  OCD much?  Or just very, very style conscious.

[Rumsy4]

What will Rumple do in the Real World, though? There are some pockets in the world where people believe in magic, but things get about in this media-savvy age. If the Dagger is a liability, a huge freaking cartoonish hat sitting on top of his head isn't? He will be caught by the US military and experimented on before he can say "Dearie" twice. Hey! maybe he's the antichrist, and the hat will confer the Mark of the Beast on him. :-p 

[Joanh23]

2 quotes that made we want to throw stuff at my computer were:

Snow saying "we messed up" rather than admitting that she was the one who really caused Emma to run away.

 

And when Regina told Henry "the next time a happy ending comes knocking, I'm not going to let this book stop me again" ah no Regina you were the one who was too afraid to go into the tavern to see Robin it had nothing to do with any book - it's called taking responsibility for your actions!

[Helena Dax]

Unless SQ has manipulated Emma's magic, everything about her and Snow and her powers felt a bit forced to me, and that's why I can't be too mad at Snow. Anyway, I agree that SQ is one of the best villains we've seen in this show. 

 

Glad to see Aurora and Cinderella!

 

Rumple going full evil could be interesting. I wonder when/if Bella will realize how dumb she is when it comes to him.