S02.E07: Deliverance

[DeLurker]

I want John Cho's show to be renewed, because, in spite of the title, it's actually pretty good

I only made it through the first 2 eps  - maybe I'll give it another try.  He was fine, but the girl lead I found unlikeable, but not in an interesting way.

 

I can see how the diversity of the casting was accidental and it didn't even occur to me that this cast was so diverse until more than half way into the season.   Race was irrelevant in terms of the lives and interactions of the characters.

This is how I felt S1, but in S2 with Jenny and Irving noticeably absent, John Chos off to another show and the expansion of time (not particularly well spent) on Henry, Katrina, Abraham and Hawley (by default) makes the lack of diversity stand out to me.  If they had taken this time to actually move forward with interesting storylines and character development, I'd still be missing Jenny and Irving but I would not actively resent it.

 

Katrina's post-it early warning system really did not give them much of a warning.

 

HalyconDays - can hubby write for the show please?

 

Abbie's major eye roll after Ick came out from his cuddle fest with Katrina at the end will keep me tuned in for a bit more, but if she starts drinking the kool aid, I'm out.

Edited November 5, 2014 by DeLurker

[Snookums]

The point about evil having already come into the world through Katrina is an interesting one. We still don't know why the coven killed Henry and that could prove interesting. They've already established Katrina as a liar and a killer (in today's world she would've been convicted of manslaughter for Mary's death not murder), and the person she lied to the most was her supposed love Ichabod. It's obvious that the great love between Ichabod and Katrina was mostly Ichabod towards Katrina. And let's not forget Katrina practically left Abraham at the altar for Ichabod.

 

 

I think you've really highlighted here what's wrong. Katrina SHOULD be interesting. She's certainly done plenty to earn it, on paper. Crane being in love, a love he cannot control, with a woman who has done all this "for him" SHOULD be intriguing to watch. His need to trust someone who's demonstrated time and time again that she has betrayed trust (but always for "good" reasons) should be a source of tension and hook the viewer. And Crane's love for Abbie should tie in much more organically, as the battle in his soul for the two women who have given up so much for hims tears him apart.

 

But the writers don't trust or, apparently, like the character they created. Katrina is supposed to be a combination witch/Quaker/major player in the End Times, but it's like the show creators were afraid that such a person would be (sing it with me gals, you know the words!) too intimidating. They clearly think somebody who defied Heaven and Hell to save her love might be off-putting through her strength and determination, so they took this amazing-in-concept character and wrapped her up in a Damsel In Distress burqua.

 

All that supposedly amazing power and will and force is completely smothered because somebody out there might not thinks she's nice enough. She says she's done/doing/going to do this or that or the other, but it always turns out with her crying or ineptly spying or taking her one chance to send a message to Ichabod not to send valuable information but a soppy love note. It's like the writers trolled an MRA forum to get ideas for how to punish a character for being interesting while not even allowing her to be interesting!

[ChelseaNH]

The point about evil having already come into the world through Katrina is an interesting one

 

So the assumption is that Jeremy was born evil?  If he wasn't, then evil didn't enter the world through Katrina; it was already here to twist Jeremy through his wretched childhood.

[LydiaMoon1]

I do wonder why no one complains as much about Reyes who is essentially doing EXACTLY what Irving used to do which is be a tough, skeptical boss turned believer. One of the biggest mistakes plotwise was to remove Irving from action and place him in the psych ward. The team was just hitting its stride with him firmly on board. He could have remained police chief and alotted Abbie and Crane the resources to solve their cases without all the obstacles and sneaking around. They basically brought in Reyes and her behavior and demeanor has followed the exact trajectory of Irving's from the first season. A new police chief was not needed.

Since I see Reyes as the means for reuniting Jenny and Abbie with their mother and a good addition to the team (eventually), I don’t mind her. I though her presence would be needed to anchor the police station scenes while Irving is away.  I didn’t even mind Irving being institutionalized, at first, because I thought Henry stealing Irving’s soul was going to lead to three things.  (1) I thought it would show the audience the trickey by which Andy ended up a minion against his will, (2) lead to the discovery of a means to save the souls of both Irving and Andy, and (3) return Jenny to the psyche ward to help Irving and develop their relationship. I figured the Team would find a way to slip Jenny and Irving in and out of the institution to fight in the demon war while finding a means to win his soul back.  What I didn't expect was that the writers would almost completely sideline Jenny, Irving, and Reyes in favor of Hawley, Headless, Henry, and Katrina.

That’s what I get for thinking.

 

[Timetoread]

Well - except for the fact that Katia was cast before anyone else and never chem-tested with anyone else... AND the fact that the writers originally planned to kill her off... in the PILOT.

 

OMG is that true?  To think of how good this show would be if Headless weren't sniveling over the woman who stood him up, or War (a man in his 60's) spitting out the word "Mommy" like he's about to add the word "Dearest" on the end.  And Ichabod not made an idiot over the Crane Family issues.  *Sniff*

 

I only have one hope left - that Katrina is revealed to be truly evil or that she, because she is otherwise shady as hell, qualifies as a Horseman and "saves" Henry by replacing him.  That would be cool.  In fact, having her be the third Horseman would be totally fun, although it's Abbie's turn to have a HM connected to her.  Jenny?????

[LydiaMoon1]

Well, I will always contend that the witnesses were always Jenny and Abbie.  That's why they were confronted by Moloch when they were girls. Ichabod just got thrown into the mix as a diversion. 

 

Again, the show in my head is so much better than what's onscreen.

 

ETA: IIRC Katrina told Ichabod that he was the first witness.

Edited November 5, 2014 by LydiaMoon1

[savinggrace]

Can someone refresh my memory as to how Abbie and Crane knew they were the two witnesses?

[rubyred]

I still don't get why Moloch had to be borned again via Katrina. I can't watch this ep again - did anyone catch that?

The show is disappointing but this board is not! You guys give me life and hope. Hope that Abbie and Jenny have been quietly and secretly trying to figure out how to defeat Moloch/Henry/Headless et al without Crane's help, because of his conflict of interest with Katrina.

I do get the sense that Abbie doesn't trust Crane completely, even as he completely believes he won't let Abbie down. I think he's going to blow it big time, and it will take time for the Witnesses to get back in sync. Which is exactly what he deserves, some kind of emotional chasm between the two of them that will serve as his wake-up call.

Edited November 5, 2014 by rubyred

[slayer2]

I want to preface this by saying that I find absolutely no error in Katia Winter's (sp?) skills as an actress. I think she does wonderfully with the material she has,it is entirely writing and a boredom with the Ichabod/Katrina chemistry that is making the character sink for me. I think primarily she is meant to be a periphery character like Hawley and wasn't written with enough background to make her a feasible full-time player.

I'm also bored by the Crane drama, I almost gave up on this episode. It reminded me of when Buffy let Angelus run roughshod over the entire town and nearly the world because she couldn't get over her feelings for Angel. That at least was more understandable because she was a teenager. Ichabod and Katrina have no such excuse, although at least Katrina was willing to eat a bullet to save the day. Ichabod however is turning into one of those witnesses that changes their testimony before trial. Nothing like the fate of the world to make you prove that blood (really demented blood) is thicker than water.

As for Henry/Jeremy/War/Whomever, I really don't care what his childhood trauma is, I'm sure someone could have made a case for Jeffrey Dahmer too. When they're that far gone you stick a fork in it, especially when the salvation of the WORLD is at stake, house rules, sorry (not sorry).

In terms of Jenny. She's my favourite character on the show, if I don't see more of her or lose her at the expense of Katrina then I'm outta here. It's not a matter of principle just a matter of extreme boredom. If they are in fact trying to "lighten up the show" then to them I say "You're idiots and you're tanking the ratings." If it ain't broke, don't "fix it." Diversity brings ratings, it's been proven and the awesomeness that is Irving and Jenny cannot be ignored for long.

Edited November 5, 2014 by slayer2

[Helena Dax]

I remember some plots for Irving which were boring as hell. His arguments with his ex wife weren't better than Ichabod/Katrina's scenes, imo. 

 

There's something  I honestly  don't understand. I've read so many comments complaining about the  lack of chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod. Why would you want otherwise? I don't think we're supposed to root for them so to me, it makes sense if their relationship doesn't work completely. 

[fantique]

If this is true then we're probably screwed. You can like them or hate them but K&O created a complex show with very specific sensibilities. You can't just hand that kind of thing off to somebody else without an impact on quality certainly not in the second season. If it's true that we've lost the original showrunners then my hope for the show turning around is gone.

Yeah... that was one of the reasons I thought a shorter season could potentially be good because the busier show-runners would then be able to fit it in their schedule to be more involved.

 

I still don't get why Moloch had to be borned again via Katrina. I can't watch this ep again - did anyone catch that?-

They mentioned the Hellfire Club has made previous attempt and that's why they had that dead woman on the table that had the same markings as Katrina. I think that they tried on regular humans and then came to the conclusion that they needed a supernatural to carry Moloch.

 

Or it might be that she had been chosen previously as hinted by a previous episode with Moloch calling her a vessel and a Hellfire Shard. So maybe there is something we haven't figured out yet about Katrina that made her a valid candidate.

I actually think that maybe Moloch didn't want her to be the carrier because he still has use for her but Henry likes to screw with his parents.

[netlyon2]

There's something  I honestly  don't understand. I've read so many comments complaining about the  lack of chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod. Why would you want otherwise? I don't think we're supposed to root for them so to me, it makes sense if their relationship doesn't work completely.

 

For me, the lack of chemistry undercuts the storyline they are trying sell me.  It is difficult for me to believe that Ichabod is torn between his head and his heart when I can't see any connection between his heart and Katrina's.  It's a like a tug of war where one side (logic, duty, ABBIE) is clasping his hand and firmly pulling while the other side (love for Katrina) is tapping on his shoulder and whispering "Ick-a-bawd" like a massive creep. 

 

No contest.

Edited November 5, 2014 by netlyon2

[slade3]

I remember some plots for Irving which were boring as hell. His arguments with his ex wife weren't better than Ichabod/Katrina's scenes, imo. 

 

There's something  I honestly  don't understand. I've read so many comments complaining about the  lack of chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod. Why would you want otherwise? I don't think we're supposed to root for them so to me, it makes sense if their relationship doesn't work completely. 

The reason I want Crane and Katrina to have chemistry is because the show is telling me they have a great love. Even if that love is doomed in the end, as a viewer, I need to believe it exists to feel any investment in it.

 

I also happen to believe we are supposed to root for them. Their relationship reminds me a bit of Buffy the Vampire Slayer's dilemma with Spike/Buffy and Riley/Buffy. The writers fully expected fans to embrace Riley as Buffy's true love, but fans were rooting for Buffy and Spike. The writers were very vocal about their disappointment and admitted they didn't mean for fans to want Spike and Buffy to be together. But for me, the characters worked and the chemistry was out of control. I was offended when the writers became hostile towards fans for loving a vampire and disliking Riley, the really nice guy.

 

ETA: If you're familiar with Buffy, the actor playing Riley (Marc Blukas?) was very cute. I was into him when he was introduced in season 4. But he was dull and his scenes with Buffy were boring toward the end of that season. I could no longer root for him. Especially not after Spike's scenes with Buffy were just so terrific in season 5. With Sleepy Hollow, I would love to enjoy the Crane and Katrina scenes, but I never have. I just don't feel invested in their relationship, or in her character, and now I feel as if someone behind the scenes and trying to make me feel as if I should want this couple to work because that's the way it was intended. What TV writers need to know is that viewers aren't stupid. We can sense when we're being guided/manipulated.

 

While I didn't love the scenes between Irving and his wife, I really thought Orlando Jones sold his interactions with her. To be honest, I probably could have done without the wife/daughter storyline, especially since it has been dropped. But I thought they were going somewhere with Jenny and the daughter bonding, so I didn't mind.

Edited November 5, 2014 by slade3

[HalcyonDays]

Besides my irritation at how Irving and Jenny have been so sidelined, another thing that really bothers me is the character assassination of Ichabod Crane.

 

This is supposed to be a guy whose conscience is so strong, that he literally committed an act of treason and joined the Patriots to fight against his own country. This is supposed to be a person who duty and honour are important to him and mean something powerful to him.

 

Yet, the moment Katrina saunters in the door, or into his mind, all of that is lost. If the show hadn't already shown him to be a good caring person, I would have guessed the only reason he was upset Caroline was killed, is because his source of clothing was now dead. Same with Abbie - that he was upset at her almost drowning, because his livelyhood would be dead.

 

I've said it before. Abbie makes Ichabod a better person. Katrina makes Ichabod a terrible person. All of those scenes between Abbie and Ichabod, and all future ones no longer have any meaning to me. Because the show assassinated his character and made him come off as being a really bad person - but always in the presence of Katrina, or when he has his little Katrina-mania episodes. No questioning her shadiness, the lies, the fact that she "accidently" caused his fiance's death. Nothing at all.

 

The show would have made sense if they made Katrina evil. The behaviour of Crane re: Katrina would only make sense if he was under a spell, courtesy of the red-headed "enchantress". THEN it would all make sense. But I doubt they will ever write something this logical. Instead, they perform character assassination on one of the most compelling characters on TV, all the while ignoring storylines for the other most compelling character on TV. What a waste.

[Grammaeryn]

I hated this episode so much, halfway through I tweeted "@SleepyHollowFOX Great sidelining of the characters of color. #saveAbbieMills" Maybe we can get the hashtag to catch on? Because this is grade A bullshite

[HalcyonDays]

I hated this episode so much, halfway through I tweeted "@SleepyHollowFOX Great sidelining of the characters of color. #saveAbbieMills" Maybe we can get the hashtag to catch on? Because this is grade A bullshite

 

Oh no, the hashtag that's going like crazy right now is #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter. Check it out - so dead on.

[Helena Dax]

 

I just don't feel invested in their relationship, or in her character, and now I feel as if someone behind the scenes and trying to make me feel as if I should want this couple to work because that's the way it was intended.

It's interesting because I don't have that feeling at all. Ichabod may think Katrina is The One, but in my opinion every time Abbie throws shade about Katrina's real intentions we're supposed to agree with her.

 

You mentioned Buffy/Spike; I think that's exactly what the writers are trying to avoid and that's the reason Katrina can't be awesome. I mean, if Ichabbie is  endgame -and I'm pretty sure it is-, the writers wouldn't want us complaining they got rid of wonderful Katrina just to make Ichabod/Abbie happen. 

[phoenics]

I remember some plots for Irving which were boring as hell. His arguments with his ex wife weren't better than Ichabod/Katrina's scenes, imo.

I completely disagree - at least that story had some action and some REAL stakes that didn't feel forced. The possession storyline with Macy tied RIGHT into Jenny and made that storyline WORK. We got some past connection with Jenny and some heart strings with Abbie finding out Jenny had been possessed - and then Abbie finds out that Jenny was avoiding her because the demon who possessed Jenny kept telling Jenny to kill Abbie.

That storyline is WORLDS above the garbage we're getting with the Cranes - talk about superior material. The Crane stuff isn't even close to as deep as that - not only because it was subtle - but because it had a remarkable way of involving Irving, Jenny and Abbie into a storyline that was poignant and most importantly NOT forced.

 

There's something  I honestly  don't understand. I've read so many comments complaining about the  lack of chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod. Why would you want otherwise? I don't think we're supposed to root for them so to me, it makes sense if their relationship doesn't work completely.

If you're saying that the writers are writing Ichatrina poorly on purpose so they can set up for Ichabbie, I disagree. I don't think the writers are doing that - they aren't that bright, imo.

Normally when writers don't want you to root for a couple - they don't work so hard to make you "lurve" them. That's what this last episode was - the writers trying to MAKE us like Ichatrina/Katrina - the story didn't really advance much at all beyond that - except demon in a jar - and that could have been accomplished plenty of other ways rather than using the demon baby trope to try to make us "feel for Katrina".

I think the writers THINK they are creating an epic love story there - that's why they have given the cast marching orders to deny Ichabbie and put that down like an old dog. I think that the writers don't understand how not compelling Katrina or Ichatrina is. And the more they work to shove them down our throats, the worse it gets and the more contrived and sophomoric the stories become.

They cannot achieve the nuanced subtlety of the aforementioned Irving/Jenny/Abbie storyline because Katrina as a character wasn't meant to be around that long - thus they are trying to backfill her storyline (and created the CFD mess as a result) - and of course it's dragging the show down. It's like riding a horse and trying to knit the checkered flag at the same time - you can't do one without ruining the other.

The time to make Ichatrina epic was in Season 1 - but if your goal is to create an epic love story, you don't "tell" the audience that it's epic and skate by, keeping your "epic" couple apart, while one of the people is constantly shown with another - another whom he has amazing chemistry with. Besides - they were even thinking of killing Katrina off in the season 1 finale - the season one writers were NEVER thinking about an epic love story THEN... they're trying to convince us of that NOW...

Nope!

I'm sorry - but how many chances do we have to give Katrina/Ichatrina before we just let it go? How many ratings points must we fall before they finally give up the ghost and focus on the other characters who EARNED their way onscreen doing the full gauntlet of auditions and chemistry tests? Yeesh - I feel like I'm about to go on a Papa Pope rant (hangar scene)!

It still angers me that Katia Winter didn't chem-test with any other cast member - it shows and feels really unfair to the 2 other cast members (who did have to chemistry test with everyone else) and are getting shoved aside for Katia. NOT. FAIR.

[DeLurker]

 

The reason I want Crane and Katrina to have chemistry is because the show is telling me they have a great love.

This to infinity.  I am mystified by what Crane finds so compelling about Katrina, even calling her an enchantress.  KW and TM are two very attractive people, so generating some heat shouldn't be a chore.  But I seriously get nothing from the two of them.  Even post-boinkal in bed, there's nothing.

 

So we have Katrina having deceived him (or at least not been honest) about being a witch, being pregnant and the death of his former fiance.  Not raging acts of love and devotion.  To be honest, I haven't seen Ich do a whole lot that says great love either.  And, to me, their sex chem is non-existence.  Nothing screaming great love.

 

If the two were generating some heat, it would be easy to buy into Katrina sexed up Ich's Colonial self and so he gets totally whipped.

 

And Ich?  When you just finished doing the nasty and have called your partner an enchantress, it is icky to say your future daughter will also be an enchantress just like dear ol' Mum.

[phoenics]

And Ich?  When you just finished doing the nasty and have called your partner an enchantress, it is icky to say your future daughter will also be an enchantress just like dear ol' Mum.

Welp. I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

[vanarnd1]

Thinking about it I really felt for Abbie in the second to last scene. All she is trying to do is make a logical statement that now they know for sure that Henry is evil, and she can't convinve Crane at all and has to listen to him go on about his connection with his son.

 

I wish John Cho could come back as Andy for an episode, mainly because I think he would be the person to call out Ichabod  on all of this 'save and redeem Henry" nonense if he knew what what was going on. Truhfully Andy has been shown to have Abbie's best interests at heart more than Ichabod has and that has to change soon or else the appeal of the show(the Ichabbie scenes) will lose all meaning.

[M1977G]

 

Despite the title of Sleepy Hollow pointing to Ichabod as the lead, I've felt that it was a shared position between Abbie and himself. Certainly that's how it was when the show was working better than it is now. The show feels off-balance when the writing and production step away from that partnership.

Yes.  I'm not ready to give up on this show or season, but ITA with others that absenting Jenny is a huge mistake, and I'm bored with Orlando Jones rotting in the insane asylum in his drab "PATIENT" T-shirts.  Obviously, they're building up to something with him, but do they have to be so boring about it while they're getting around to the question of whether or not he will fight for evil?  But to repeat:  I really miss Jenny.  I mean, who else can they send to the med school to steal fresh organs to feed to a beast who used to be a childhood friend, and then will joke that they should donate blood for good karma?  I agree, too, that it's odd the writers do not address her absences.  She's such an interesting character that I think we need more of her--I mean, obviously this lady has an interesting and badass life, so why can't we see more of it?  

 

I also agree with folks that Katrina and her storyline are LAME.  I was a little surprised at myself when I was hoping she was dying at the end of the episode and thinking, nice way to get her out of the way!  But alas, Crane was too observant when Hawley saved Abbie, so he was able to save his lying love.  I'm hopeful that she continues to reveal her fuck ups and lies, and that that is what drives the final wedge between herself and Ichabod.  I mean, she's not coming across to me as a good person, so I'm struggling to think of her as a good witch--which also is hard because her magic sucks.  I do find Ichabod's desire to redeem his son more admirable and compelling than Katrina's, though.  She's known their child existed and suffered for two centuries, and Ichabod is just finding out.  Dude has a lot to process, and he's an idealist. 

 

So far, I like Hawley.  I'm not sure he's a totally moral character, which makes him interesting, but I think if we have to deal with this stupid Katrina-Ichabod thing, Abbie should get some kind of romantic interest (or at least sexy distraction) too.  I agree it was kind of sleazy and soapy to have given him a past with Jenny, who clearly still wants to get him naked, but I do give him some character props for feeling awkward about his developing attraction to Abbie.  I'm not yet convinced he's worthy of our awesome Abbie Grace, but he's hot enough that I'm content to watch and see what happens.  Plus, he saved her life and uses the public library, which I see as positives.  

 

It will be interesting to see if Henry really did pull one over on Moloch.  I agree with an earlier poster who said that if a guy manages to impregnate his own mother with a demon, he's probably not redeemable.  His deep childhood pains and fears aren't the best excuses for helping to usher in the apocalypse.

[JayKay]

I did not realize until this episode that Abbie is paying Ichabod's way. They'll probably find a way to rectify that now that it's been pointed out, but in the meantime I'd love for him to hear some early 2000's R&B songs like "No Scrubs" or "Bills, Bills, Bills" while driving around in Abbie's car.

[Trek]

Heh, the simmering hate people on here have for Katrina is palpable. I don’t mind her at all and one of the reasons, but certainly not the only reason, is that better the melodrama happens to her than to Abbie. What the Abbie shippers especially need to keep in mind is that if/when members of the lead cast get together on a show of this type, the writers will be compelled to send a whole crap ton of melodrama/disasters their way. It’s like a code of conduct or a specific rule in the TV Writer’s Guild Charter or something.

 

One party getting kidnapped just before it seems they are about to be happy, as happened to Katrina in SH’s S01 finale, is the norm not the exception e.g.

True blood, Castle, Belle getting imprisoned for 26 years and then losing her memory in OUAT. etc.

Or let’s take Fringe, a show a few people on SH are directly associated with. This happened after the writers caved to the shippers:

Olivia gets trapped in the Redverse for a season and Bishop takes up, and makes a baby with, Folivia instead. Then Bishop sacrifices himself and disappears for close to another season only to come back and have no one remember he even existed. So he’s going “I love you” and she’s going “who TF are you?” for the better part of another season. Then we get a time jump of about 20 years for the finale season and learned that during the interim they had never been happy togther because their kid disappeared and caused their estrangment. Then they get the kid back and she dies 3 episodes in, resulting in Bishop implanting himself with an Observer chip and losing his connection to human emotions. The melodrama was freaking endless.

 

In other words, we are not going to be rid of the melodrama and it’s better to keep all the forced separations, spider induced pregnancies, and the like between the Cranes than between the Witnesses . Keep Abbie as the kickass cop she is.

 

I also disagree that Abbie is being shunted aside. As another poster alluded to, they seem to be alternating. Pied piper was Abbie centric (the mother was Abbie’s social worker), Drowned chick was Ichabod centric, Windigo was Abbie centric, this episode is Crane centric and next week seems to be about some succubus and Hawley and thus Abbie centric again.

... ... ...

 

That said, IMHO, this episode was a serious mistake. Katrina was the reward promised to Headless. He even exchanges the second seal for her in a specific deal. Thus all the preparations (the ceremony Katrina talked him out of, the necklace of head-seeing etc.) were all a fake out to dupe Headless since Moloch planned to kill her to birth himself and screw him over all along. This puts the writers at a fork, either:

(a) Headless pretends it never happened (or gets over it). Which would make the entire arc of the season so far a complete waste of time, or (b) The main antagonist of last season becomes a free agent, sometimes fighting the witnesses to try to get Katrina back and sometimes an ally of the witnesses against Moloch/War. Which is a jumping the shark kind of turn of events as far as I am concerned.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Trek

[nurse1]

Yes it seems that everyone is getting very, very upset about this particular episode...And I agree that it was an awful episode, poorly written and acted... but maybe this outrage is what the writers need to wake up and see that the show is so off course and losing viewers left and right!  I think that the fans should think about contacting FOX itself if the show continues on this path of destruction!!!

[savinggrace]

Random but did anyone else think it was really awkward when Abbie joked about paying all of Crane's bills at the voting booth? She kinda laughed it off but I don't think it came across as humorous as the writers intended. I certainly winced. I thought Crane should have had a response regarding finding a job but he just ignored the comment which seemed weird.

 

Would a man from Crane's era not feel embarrassed or ashamed that he was not gainfully employed and relying on a woman for sustenance?I think it would be a great side plot for Crane to get a job teaching history or languages. Maybe Hawley could hook him up with some paperwork and fake references .

Edited November 6, 2014 by savinggrace

[slade3]

It's interesting because I don't have that feeling at all. Ichabod may think Katrina is The One, but in my opinion every time Abbie throws shade about Katrina's real intentions we're supposed to agree with her.

 

You mentioned Buffy/Spike; I think that's exactly what the writers are trying to avoid and that's the reason Katrina can't be awesome. I mean, if Ichabbie is  endgame -and I'm pretty sure it is-, the writers wouldn't want us complaining they got rid of wonderful Katrina just to make Ichabod/Abbie happen. 

This is where it gets complicated for the writers, I think. While I agree the viewers are supposed to side with Abbie when she questions Katrina's motives, I don't believe that is because Crane and Abbie are endgame. I believe it's because Katrina is supposed to be morally ambivalent so we wonder about her the way Abbie does - it adds to the mystery and the show's (apparent) core question of whether Crane and Katrina can eventually be together again. Is Katrina bad? Does she have Crane's best intentions in mind? Is Crane blinded by his love for Katrina? Unfortunately, I see Abbie as one of us, an outsider and spectator, with the added burden of having to save this couple from destroying themselves. Haven't the show runners been saying this? That they never intended Crane and Abbie to be endgame? Isn't that why they added Hawley to the cast? So Abbie would have her own love interest? Didn't critics talk about the opening credits that feature Crane and Katrina silhouettes?

 

For me, when the show runners start talking to the fans, it means they believe we're misinterpreting their intentions. I definitely don't have a sense the SH people are trying to avoid a Buffy situation.

[Indi]

ETA: IIRC Katrina told Ichabod that he was the first witness.

And we all know she never lies ;)

 

I completely disagree - at least that story had some action and some REAL stakes that didn't feel forced. The possession storyline with Macy tied RIGHT into Jenny and made that storyline WORK.

 

Yeah, I agree with you. The Irvings don't have a lot of chemistry, but the show is not trying to sell them as the most epic couple ever and they're actually divorced (or separated). I liked Macey and not having her back in the show, at least once, is a mistake, because she's Frank's reason to be in his current predicament, because the child is likeable and added dimensions to Frank and Jenny.

 

This to infinity. I am mystified by what Crane finds so compelling about Katrina, even calling her an enchantress.

Or Headless. What's with these men losing their minds over the blandest drippiest woman in existence?

 

Would a man from Crane's era not feel embarrassed or ashamed that he was not gainfully employed and relying on a woman for sustenance?

I don't know about feelings of embarrassment, but I do know a man or woman of any era would, at least, have feelings of gratitude. The little shit had none.

[panthergirl13]

I haven't watched the last three episodes of this show. I'm not sure if it's worth powering through to catch up, but usually when something languishes on my DVR for that long it's no accident. 

 

I love, love, love Tom Mison...but I'm not sure that's enough to keep me interested.

[Grammaeryn]

Orlando Jones responded to the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter movement on Twitter. He basically says wait, it gets better. Also do you think the voting scene was there to say "See Abbie isn't Grace" since we have a birthing scene later? RAGE!

[Sepia]

I haven't watched the last three episodes of this show. I'm not sure if it's worth powering through to catch up, but usually when something languishes on my DVR for that long it's no accident. 

 

I love, love, love Tom Mison...but I'm not sure that's enough to keep me interested.

 

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

[Haleth]

Or Headless. What's with these men losing their minds over the blandest drippiest woman in existence?

 

Ha!  Literally!

[blaksheba]

The whole attire scene at the hospital really? This was just another cheap shot to try and make the audience see how beautifully endowed Katrina is and why Ichabod is so taking with his enchantress! Hell I was like WTF you have Abbie right there in front of her and you are trying to tell me that Katrina is the "only" one these guys are noticing, yeah right a definite what kind of blind fools do you take us for writers?

 

 

I think the ratings are beginning to reflect the unwillingness of the audience to sit through crap even if their 2 faves are there. I do think Ichabod is falling out of favor with a lot of viewers which is a shame, but the writers are not dong him any justice right now. Oh well I know I'm watching the next 2 episodes cause hey I am here for Nick and Abbie (I don't believe Jenny is going to have much of an issue with them) but yeah I think it will be Abbie to the rescue again only this time she'll be saving Nick. Can Abbie get just a little loving, I know she would love to relieve some of her stress and a drink at the local pub might not be enough. And of course episode 9 were there is hopefully tons of Abbie, Jenny, Irving and some Hawley thrown in. I'll keep some hope but my faith is fading quickly. BTW I stopped watching Twisted as soon as they had Jo sleep with the throw away guy.

Agreed. That scene in the hospital hallway pissed me off a bit. It's like it tried to reinforce the enduring and accepted standard of  "beauty". If there are two women one white and one non white, but specifically Black, then automatically, the white woman is the most physically attractive woman.  I hate that even now we still have to argue about a woman's beauty, but society is such that women's physically attributes are more important than anything else, and tv/entertainment is a shallow medium.

 

Little by little, the color is being drained from this show and stereotypes are being reinforced. The helpful/noble negro, the wilting, withering white woman and the resolute in his convictions white man. I just can't figure why we are still dealing with this bull... I simply can't believe that Fox or the showrunners themselves believe that white people only want to see shows where only white lives are reflected. Can't there just be one show that bucks the trend? Does a show have to be run by a person of color in order to reflect lives of people of color that aren't one-dimensional?  Almost every show on television features a mostly white cast with a blond or light haired white woman as the everywoman and a white man as the everyman... isn't anyone tired? Other people have thoughts, feelings, and conflicts that go beyond their race and ethnicity.

 

That said, I won't be watching this show if this trend continues; and I totally loved this show at one point. If this show started out as a mostly white cast with Katia Winters as the lead actress and the people of color as simply recurring, I may have watched it anyway, but it is seriously insulting to have this change happen during  a season. I watch Orlando Jones promoting the hell out of this show before its season 2 premiere, so I thought he was going to be fairly represented this season...  he give no hints that he would barely be on the show, but I guess he couldn't give anything away.

 

Whoo, I'm sorry, I had a lot to say about this... I didn't realize I was so annoyed. No one I know watched the show, so there was no one with whom to gripe about this.

[topanga]

 

This is where it gets complicated for the writers, I think. While I agree the viewers are supposed to side with Abbie when she questions Katrina's motives, I don't believe that is because Crane and Abbie are endgame. I believe it's because Katrina is supposed to be morally ambivalent so we wonder about her the way Abbie does - it adds to the mystery and the show's (apparent) core question of whether Crane and Katrina can eventually be together again. Is Katrina bad? Does she have Crane's best intentions in mind? Is Crane blinded by his love for Katrina? Unfortunately, I see Abbie as one of us, an outsider and spectator, with the added burden of having to save this couple from destroying themselves. Haven't the show runners been saying this? That they never intended Crane and Abbie to be endgame?

I like that Abbie is the moral center of the show. And I don't mind exploring the questions that have arisen about Ichabod and Katrina's marriage. But what I don't like is that Abbie's intelligence, logic, and common sense--along with her important role as one of the two Witnesses--has been casually tossed aside by the show's writers in order to further the Crane romantic drama and the Crane family redemption arc. Other compelling storylines have also taken a back seat--without explanation or story continuity whatsoever. I'll believe Orlando Jones for now and hope that the remainder of the season is more balanced.

 

I've been listening to a "Sleepyhead" podcast, and the host interviews various members of the Sleepy Hollow writing staff each week. The writers state that throughout Season 1 and into Season 2 there has been overwhelming fan support for expanding the Ichatrina storyline and giving Katrina a larger role on the show. For one thing, I have no idea what fans are supposedly clamoring for the show to move in this direction--no one on this forum, obviously. Second, the writers have always declared that Ichabod and Abbie are the heart of the show, and that their mission as Witnesses would not take a backseat to Ichabod and Katrina's marriage drama. So what's changed?  

 

I refuse to believe that the network, the showrunners, and the writers think that this new plan of shoving the Crane family drama down our throats is working. Based on the social media that I follow and the show's ratings, most fans don't like it at all. There are some fans who post that they are glad to learn more about Katrina and say they don't understand the Katrina "hate." But I have not seen one post, comment, or tweet from a fan that states how much they love seeing Abbie moved to the sidelines in favor of the Crane family.

 

 

Random but did anyone else think it was really awkward when Abbie joked about paying all of Crane's bills at the voting booth? She kinda laughed it off but I don't think it came across as humorous as the writers intended. I certainly winced. I thought Crane should have had a response regarding finding a job but he just ignored the comment which seemed weird.

This line has generated a lot of discussion. It never occurred to me, and I suppose it never occurred to anyone else, how Crane maintained his lifestyle. But when you think about it, in Season 1, Abbie was the one buying things for Crane--the shower poof, the skinny jeans , the groceries, the lunches. And he's living in Corbin's cabin rent-free (I think).

 

--I think he could get a job at the Sleepy Hollow Historical Society. That is, if Jenny or Hawley could rustle up a Social Security number for him.

 

And what does Jenny do for money? She doesn't seem dependent on Abbie or anyone else, but she also doesn't have a regular job, either.

Edited November 6, 2014 by topanga

[RiddleyWalker]

I've been thinking about this show and its problems the last few days and posted this elsewhere.

 

I had hopes for Katrina as a character before this season started but the way the show's handled it has eliminated any hope her character can be used any longer on the show. I think her character has become so hated, that any use of her is no longer possible, --even as an evil witch. I think she needs to be gone sooner than the end of the season as well.

 

Here's my scenario to fix the show… :)
Henry actually kills Katrina in some fashion perhaps "accidentally" (and she goes to somewhere permanent she can't get out of--i.e. not purgatory). Henry regrets this, repents, reconciles with Ichabod to some extent, and lays down the mantle of "Horseman of War." He serves a role similar to Walter Bishop on fringe helping the Witnesses to fight the baddies with his arcane knowledge and powers.(Though he's still conflicted and could be turned back to evil at any point) His knowledge will keep the show from simply relying on Franklin's journals, Washington's Bible and Ichabod's experiences for inside info on fighting evil.

 

Meanwhile, Headless is enraged and ramps up the attacks. (He's also now really "headless" as Katrina's necklace was destroyed.)

 

Finally, Irving becomes the "new" Horseman of War!

 

One or two episodes tops and we're back on track!

[allyw]

Heh, the simmering hate people on here have for Katrina is palpable. I don’t mind her at all and one of the reasons, but certainly not the only reason, is that better the melodrama happens to her than to Abbie. What the Abbie shippers especially need to keep in mind is that if/when members of the lead cast get together on a show of this type, the writers will be compelled to send a whole crap ton of melodrama/disasters their way. It’s like a code of conduct or a specific rule in the TV Writer’s Guild Charter or something.

 

One party getting kidnapped just before it seems they are about to be happy, as happened to Katrina in SH’s S01 finale, is the norm not the exception e.g.

True blood, Castle, Belle getting imprisoned for 26 years and then losing her memory in OUAT. etc.

Or let’s take Fringe, a show a few people on SH are directly associated with. This happened after the writers caved to the shippers:

Olivia gets trapped in the Redverse for a season and Bishop takes up, and makes a baby with, Folivia instead. Then Bishop sacrifices himself and disappears for close to another season only to come back and have no one remember he even existed. So he’s going “I love you” and she’s going “who TF are you?” for the better part of another season. Then we get a time jump of about 20 years for the finale season and learned that during the interim they had never been happy togther because their kid disappeared and caused their estrangment. Then they get the kid back and she dies 3 episodes in, resulting in Bishop implanting himself with an Observer chip and losing his connection to human emotions. The melodrama was freaking endless.

 

In other words, we are not going to be rid of the melodrama and it’s better to keep all the forced separations, spider induced pregnancies, and the like between the Cranes than between the Witnesses . Keep Abbie as the kickass cop she is.

 

I also disagree that Abbie is being shunted aside. As another poster alluded to, they seem to be alternating. Pied piper was Abbie centric (the mother was Abbie’s social worker), Drowned chick was Ichabod centric, Windigo was Abbie centric, this episode is Crane centric and next week seems to be about some succubus and Hawley and thus Abbie centric again.

... ... ...

 

That said, IMHO, this episode was a serious mistake. Katrina was the reward promised to Headless. He even exchanges the second seal for her in a specific deal. Thus all the preparations (the ceremony Katrina talked him out of, the necklace of head-seeing etc.) were all a fake out to dupe Headless since Moloch planned to kill her to birth himself and screw him over all along. This puts the writers at a fork, either:

(a) Headless pretends it never happened (or gets over it). Which would make the entire arc of the season so far a complete waste of time, or (b) The main antagonist of last season becomes a free agent, sometimes fighting the witnesses to try to get Katrina back and sometimes an ally of the witnesses against Moloch/War. Which is a jumping the shark kind of turn of events as far as I am concerned.

I don't how many times I've seen this excuse "It's better it happens to "white character" while "POC" continues to be awesome. That is such b.s. and awesome doesn't even come close to describing Abbie playing nursemaid to the same character the same way her her ancestor had to. And not all Abbie fans wants her with Crane so that excuse is also a wash. And Ichabod was/is an integral part in all the "Abbie centric" story while Abbie gets shunt aside in the Crane drama ones.

 

Orlando Jones responded to the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter movement on Twitter. He basically says wait, it gets better. Also do you think the voting scene was there to say "See Abbie isn't Grace" since we have a birthing scene later? RAGE!

How long are we suppose to wait? We're already 7 episodes in and we haven't learn anything about Abby that we didn't already know last season.

[TheHappinessHotel]

it's very disappointing to come in here and see how many fans now dislike the show.  It had so much potential and the writers are just killing it.  What a waste.

 

I was sure that when Abbie said she needed reinforcements that we would see Jenny and Hawley.  Little did I know that she meant the Sleepy Hollow PD.  Why are Jenny and Irving being sidelined?  I love their characters.

 

I second anyone who mentioned wanting to see Andy.  He was a great character and I would love for him to be redeemed.  Perhaps Molach forced him into service.  Now that would be a great back story to see!

 

Henry worked for me as a sin eater only.  I had hoped he would make a cameo appearance here and there, but that is it.  I cannot stand him as Jeremy.  That story line just doesn't work for me.  I have no investment in it as a viewer and I don't think he can be redeemed.  

 

I also don't watch this show for true romance story lines.  So while I don't mind Katrina, I cannot stand their epic love thrown in my face.  The show doesn't need to resort to that crap.

 

Also, Ichabod as the all knowing everything is getting somewhat tiresome.  How friggan smart is this guy!?!?!

[Indi]

Orlando Jones responded to the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter movement on Twitter. He basically says wait, it gets better. Also do you think the voting scene was there to say "See Abbie isn't Grace" since we have a birthing scene later? RAGE!

He didn't say it gets better, he just said there's more Abbie/Jenny/Frank coming, which... Duh? What was the alternative? Kill them off next episode?

[proserpina65]

Nov 3 2014. 10:03 pm

 

I'm getting tired of this show.  It seems that Abbie is getting sidelined for Katrina; which is par for the course on network TV, that a black woman gets pushed aside for a white woman.

 

Regarding the season in general, I'd disagree with you about this, since we've seen only a little of Katrina and a lot of Abbie.  But as far as this episode goes, you're not far off the mark.

 

I don't ship Ichabod and Abbie, but boy, I sure wouldn't have minded one bit if Katrina had died.  Was actively hoping for it, actually.  She's pretty much useless, for such a supposedly powerful witch.  And damn it, Ichabod, listen to Abbie - Henry is not redeemable!  Give it up.

The cracks between Moloch/Henry/Headless are starting to show and it's starting to feel like shit is getting really real.

 

This, for me, was one of the few redeemable aspects of an otherwise clunker episode.  Well, that, Abbie's 666 comment and Ichabod's frustration with the slowness of dial-up; he's come a long way since learning about the innanet.

[supposebly]

 

Also, Ichabod as the all knowing everything is getting somewhat tiresome.  How friggan smart is this guy!?!?!

I find that the amount of super-smart know-it-all in a character is inversely correlated to the laziness and stupidity of writers who can't think of a way to make characters figure something out without said deus-ex-machina.

[Neurochick]

Little by little, the color is being drained from this show and stereotypes are being reinforced. The helpful/noble negro, the wilting, withering white woman and the resolute in his convictions white man. I just can't figure why we are still dealing with this bull... I simply can't believe that Fox or the showrunners themselves believe that white people only want to see shows where only white lives are reflected. Can't there just be one show that bucks the trend? Does a show have to be run by a person of color in order to reflect lives of people of color that aren't one-dimensional?  Almost every show on television features a mostly white cast with a blond or light haired white woman as the everywoman and a white man as the everyman... isn't anyone tired? Other people have thoughts, feelings, and conflicts that go beyond their race and ethnicity.

 

 

I think the problem is that though the viewers may be tired, the suits at the network are not.  The way I see it, TV shows aren't just about selling goods, they're about selling ideas, and most networks want to sell the idea of white supremacy, moreover, white male supremacy.  That is, white people can do everything, are the most attractive, the most intelligent, etc, while POC are the sidekicks, okay, but can't dazzle the whiteness.  I think that's the snake oil Fox is selling.  Sure they may lose viewers, but what's more important to them is pushing their ideas on the public.

 

I think of a network like USA.  They used to have fun, light shows and now they suddenly want to be AMC or FX and they're canceling all of their fun, light shows, probably because they want awards and critics salivating over USA the way they do HBO.  I think of a network like Bravo, that network would never carry a show about poor people, they have a point of view and that's what they're selling.  

 

Just my two cents.

[proserpina65]

Nov 3 2014. 10:52 pm

 

I  love the little detail of Icky saving Katrina, but not bothering with Abbie, when she drowned. Nice detail, writers!

 

It wasn't that Ichabod didn't bother trying to save Abbie when she drowned - it was that he didn't know how.  Having seen Hawley perform cpr, he obviously realized the value of it and has since learned to do it himself.  I know you're not exactly a fan of Ichabod, but at least give him that much credit.

[topanga]

Agreed. That scene in the hospital hallway pissed me off a bit. It's like it tried to reinforce the enduring and accepted standard of  "beauty". If there are two women one white and one non white, but specifically Black, then automatically, the white woman is the most physically attractive woman.  I hate that even now we still have to argue about a woman's beauty, but society is such that women's physically attributes are more important than anything else, and tv/entertainment is a shallow medium.

 

Little by little, the color is being drained from this show and stereotypes are being reinforced. The helpful/noble negro, the wilting, withering white woman and the resolute in his convictions white man. I just can't figure why we are still dealing with this bull... I simply can't believe that Fox or the showrunners themselves believe that white people only want to see shows where only white lives are reflected. Can't there just be one show that bucks the trend? Does a show have to be run by a person of color in order to reflect lives of people of color that aren't one-dimensional? 

In terms of Crane noticing Katrina's beauty, I believe it's because she's his wife. I don't think Crane would consider it "proper" to comment on Abbie's beauty, since she's not his wife. Hawley (like it or not) has certainly made it clear that he sees Abbie and likes what he sees. And Jenny has long trail of men who "can't say no to her," with whom she's had a history.

 

I do agree with your comments about the helpful/noble Negro. I hope, hope, hope that Sleepy Hollow doesn't continue this trend and doesn't become that show.

[DJG1122]

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

It's just not as much fun as S1 which was supernatural happenings and snarky remarks from two great leads with interesting supporting cast. S2 is far too much Crane Family Drama and isn't very much fun. It's turned from supernatural horror to soap opera.

[panthergirl13]

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

Well like I said, I love Tom Mison. If the show were just about Ichabod Crane navigating through the 21st century, I'd be happy as a clam. But I just think the storyline got too convoluted overall. I'm not a stupid person, but if I had to explain the details of the show to someone I probably couldn't do it. I'll watch the episodes I skipped in the next few days, just to stay a part of the conversation (I haven't been reading the recaps) but it doesn't sound like that will convince me to stick with it.

[HalcyonDays]

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

 

Every episode with Crane mooning over his wife bored the hell out of me. Katrina should have been made evil, isn't, is so boring. Jenny and Irving not featured as much as I like. No background on Abbie (and extension Jenny). The constant focus on the redemption on a character that cannot be redeemed. The dumbing down of Ichabod Crane. I adore Crane at all times, until he says the word "my wife" or "Katrina" or they are together. Then, I cannot with him. And I love me some Tom Mison. Mison, you are too good of an actor, in that you are managing to spin Crane as an idiot, when Crane is so charming as hell. Breaks my heart...

 

The writers state that throughout Season 1 and into Season 2 there has been overwhelming fan support for expanding the Ichatrina storyline and giving Katrina a larger role on the show.

 

Dear god, are you serious? Who are these people. In that case, it's a good thing I started removing myself from shipping anything Ichabbie. So disappointed.

[HalcyonDays]

Everyone. This thread is to discuss the episode Deliverance, and there are some excellent discussions here, but it seems that we have moved off topic. To discuss Abbie Mills in this season, please do so in her thread (and vote for a new title). To further discuss race on TV, go here. Thank you.

[marceline]

 

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

 

I'm not staying away but I have to admit that it just doesn't feel like the same show I fell in love with in season 1. This last episode, I found myself thinking, "This isn't what I tune in for." That wasn't just about Katrina. I just feel like the victories don't mean anything. Every week it's the same thing. I'll let Tom & Lorenzo cover it for me...

 

 

...we’re finding it harder and harder to care about the outcomes of each particular mini-adventure, task or episode because they all seem to be happening on a loop. Henry has a plan, Henry enacts a plan, the plan either fails or succeeds based on how well Abbie and Ichabod respond, Henry starts hatching another plan. It never seems to break out of that cycle and it never seems to acknowledge the world outside this small, insular group of characters.

[DeLurker]

I'm always curious as to why people are staying away from the show. Care to share your thoughts on why the show hasn't kept your interest?

S1 had an awareness that the storylines were batshit crazy and the characters went with it, but with the slightest tip of the hat that said "yeah, nuts!  We know!) and we all went along for that ride.

 

I don't ship Ichabod and Abbie, but boy, I sure wouldn't have minded one bit if Katrina had died.  Was actively hoping for it, actually.

Yep, right there with you.

[marceline]

It wasn't that Ichabod didn't bother trying to save Abbie when she drowned - it was that he didn't know how.  Having seen Hawley perform cpr, he obviously realized the value of it and has since learned to do it himself.  I know you're not exactly a fan of Ichabod, but at least give him that much credit.

 

Yeah. I think of it more as Ichabod learning CPR because he came so close to losing Abbie. It's no different than Abbie wanting to teach Crane to drive. It's goes back to what he said about they will rise or fall together and that it's not their fate for one to bury the other.