S04.E04: The Apprentice

[InsertWordHere]

Something else that didn't ring true to me in this episode was Regina guessing David when Henry mentioned his grandfather. Now I know they were just trying to get a funny "Regina casually dismisses Charming's importance" scene like they've done 5,000 times before, but in the context of that conversation, it makes no sense that she would guess that Henry was talking about Grandpa Charming. I know Regina didn't ever have much time for Neal, but there's no way Rumple's relation to Henry isn't constantly running through her mind, even if Rumple himself has yet to act very grandfatherly.

[scenicbyway]

Didn't Rumple tell Neal at one point that he was his Happy Ending? It was ironic that Rumple told Hook, Belle was the one Light in his life, because he certainly does not cherish her. He was ready to let her die with the rest of Storybrooke when he thought Neal was dead, and is now taking full advantage of her foolish trust in him, so I have a hard time believing that he loves Belle, let alone that it is True Love!

I am beyond pisssed at the Kiss Curse redux, but now even more dumb and drawn out.

I agree about the Kiss Curse redux.  Hook seems really smart, is love really that blind that he'd want his hand back for their first date?  He knows Rumple better than anyone (even Regina), I can't believe he make the deal to get his hand back and then go on to "whatever it takes" to get the hook back.  If he hasn't noticed, he should, that Emma doesn't care if he has a hand or not.  I still say that wanting the hand was so that he could feel her, vs. wanting to be whole for her.

 

As for Rumple's happy ending...I don't think he has one.  I also don't think he's Belle's happy ending.  Whatever message the writers are trying to send with Beauty and the Beast with these two is just wrong.  She's essentially married to a serial killer, and she doesn't seem to mind.  Why bother to have Rumple at Neal's grave saying he would be a better man to Belle than he was to Bae if, 5 minutes later, he finds a magic box and all bets are off?  Disney's Belle deserves better than this and, for a show watched by kids, I find their relationship really scary.  The thing is, even with the dagger switch, we know Belle won't end up caring, she'll just blame Hook or everyone else and only be mad until Rumple apologizes. Bleh.

[myril]

The mechanic wizard has become an apprentice - nice to see Timothy Webber (another one from Artic Air cast, played there the mechanic, but also known from North of 60). Fun they made the apprentice and old man. Concidering, that he fought Zozo, he must be that old guy already for some hundreds of years. And hello again Brad Dourif, being good in being creepy as usual. Couldn't help it but was reminded a tiny bit of the fight of Gandalf and Saruman in Isengart seeing the apprentice and Zozo being thrown around in the vault.

 

Dear Henry: Go, get some friends of your age and have some fun and adventure with them. Most importantly: You're not the strong man who has to protect his family, nor some wise mentor with smart advice, and you don't need to be for your mothers. They are adults and have to take care of themselves, that is not your job, and you're not good at it anyway, so stop it.

 

As kid Henry was already pesky but at least with a kid cute factor, now as teenager he gets into Wesley Crusher territory. Agree with others, send him to whatever academy. Not  surprised of his manipulative side, he likes to be special ops.

 

Somehow still don't find it interesting, who wrote the storybook, never really cared.

 

Enjoy it to see so little of Regina. I don't have patience for drama queens or kings. Unless she gets truly some more unwind I won't mind to see her only in small dosage for a while.

 

Rumple is again the master of manipulation. So good, that the dashing dumb pirate returns as well. Surprised he only cuddle with a bank and not some floor.  300 years or so in Neverland with another master manipulator around didn't seem to have made Hook any smarter. On the other hand (no pun intended) I'm glad they give Hook a bit more to do than to be just eye candy for drooling and some smooching phantasies. No, the hand thing was not a smart move by Hook. But it's nice to see well earned and lasting animosity between two characters for a change, those two have at least both reasons (not saying good ones, but reasons) to hate each other, and even better, they're allowed to show it. It gives Robert Carlyle and Collin O'Donoghue material to show their acting skills.

 

Why was there a surveillance camera in the house of the apprentice? Watching plenty of British crime show so used to CCTV footage showing up or being useless whatever the plot demands, but still found this ridiculous. Even more ridiculous then the hand thing, and that was already stupid as can get.

 

But looks like Emma's and Hook's love isn't not there yet to bring out the best of each other, more the most dumb. Or let's say, I hope that is not their best.

 

Their date was so Grease though, costumes and more. With a trace of Lady and The Tramp. Just that Emma started more out as the bad girl in leather than as girly beach vacationer, or lady, so should we now wonder if she might end up as the latter? As cool as I found in Grease John Travolta's cool guy habit for five minutes, as much I hated by the way the end of Grease, Danny giving up himself for her, Sandy giving up herself for him, and happily the ride off in the magical car. Never was a romantic, but confess, I had a thing for musicals.

 

Just so to get this clear though: I like that the flirtation with Hook now brings out quite a different side of Emma. Not because I think every woman should have such girly side, but because I think, neither should any woman mind to have a girly side among others. I find little more annoying than people, (friends, family is the worst) telling a woman she has to show a more feminine side, be softer, show more emotions, smile more, make herself look beautiful (aka wear some make-up and a skirt). Or tell a guy to show more masculinity. Can we please stop telling people how they should look and behave according to some alleged gender norms?!

 

But I loved the little family teasing moments before and after the date. Made it pretty much worth it. Still Emma needs to get her own place.

 

For a moment Rumple made even my head spin with his manipulations of Anna. So it's great that in the end she nevertheless beats him. For the moment at least. For a minute I pictured though Anna getting looked up in Rumple's tower, expecting her to drive him nuts.  Did all this happen before Rumple met Belle? I think, but not all sure about it.

 

It's still intriguing how Carlyle plays with Commedia dell'arte characters, even though think it lost some freshness.

 

No surprise Rumple is showing his dark side, maybe is darker than ever. Quite glad even, because his glorious sacrifice to kill his own father, Pan, aside, never bought into reformed villain for him. Beauty and the Beast might be some sweet dream with happy ending, but it's just not such an interesting story to tell IMO, it's sweet fun but not spicy mind food.

 

Anna becomes bit like Rumple in the sense of getting involved with some people's stories, but while Rumple was the dark influence in their lives, Anna is the light one. And Rumple had some more years to do so.

 

Ovations again to all involved bringing Sven to life. Jack the reindeer, camera team, trainers, editor, sound, all of them.

 

Watchable episode with enjoyable moments, as long as keeping expectations low for logic, story, character coherence. Rumple and the hat is interesting enough as story for the time being, but didn't miss Belle at his side. The dose of sweet pesky Anna was just about right this episode, fun to see her with glittering trickster Rumple. The CaptainSwan date was not overdone, great little family moments for Emma, and I loved Elsa being a part of it. Still don't care about operation Mongoose in any good way though.

 

Little things noticed:
80s brick cordless phone Belle used (looked like some AT&T cordless).
Car parked before the apprentice's house, 1955 or so Ford Victoria, I think .
The curses created records of all inhabitants of Storybrooke? Neat.
Extra applause fort the stunt mouse (or mice). Good touchdown, nice bite.

[ShadowFacts]

 

As for Rumple's happy ending...I don't think he has one.  I also don't think he's Belle's happy ending.  Whatever message the writers are trying to send with Beauty and the Beast with these two is just wrong.  She's essentially married to a serial killer, and she doesn't seem to mind.  Why bother to have Rumple at Neal's grave saying he would be a better man to Belle than he was to Bae if, 5 minutes later, he finds a magic box and all bets are off?  Disney's Belle deserves better than this and, for a show watched by kids, I find their relationship really scary.  The thing is, even with the dagger switch, we know Belle won't end up caring, she'll just blame Hook or everyone else and only be mad until Rumple apologizes. Bleh.

 

I notice Rumple describes Belle to Hook as the one light in his life.  Not love.  Not love of his life.  It has always appeared that Bae was the big love (even though as mentioned by other posters once he found him, he wasn't that interested in developing a relationship/making up for lost time).  It therefore does not surprise me that now that his son is gone, he is going very dark.  Belle is only a light, he surely doesn't respect her, and I agree, the character of Belle is really being sullied.

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple's true love is his magic and power.  His big love is Bae and even he fell short.  Belle is just there, someone who pats him on the head and tells him how good he is and yell at people who believe the opposite.

Edited October 20, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Guest]

The only thing Disney's Belle and this Belle share is a coincidential name. I agree that their relationship is all sorts of wrong, but I'm not sure anything can be done to fix it. It would seem OOC for her to flip out on him and leave. Belle was badly cast and executed from the beginning.

And a small note: The animated broomstick was absolutley ridiculous. Guess all their budget went to that snow monster??

Edited October 20, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[justcris]

I'm holding judgement on Hook until next episode, but if he doesn't come clean with Emma by then I'm calling bs on this whole storyline. On the plus side though, Hook and Rumple scenes are more than overdue, and I enjoyed them.

Snowing were being all cute about Emma's date, so fun to see! And seeing Emma able to just relax and have a good time was pretty amazing.

It got me thinking though, where's Red? Is Megan not available again? I'd trade Belle for her any day of the week.

Speaking of Belle, I really don't understand how we're supposed to feel anything at all about her, when no one in the show cares about her either.

I want more Will! But maybe it's not the right time yet.

I'm liking all things Frozen so far. They are doing a good job with it. And I'm really liking the Fantasia stuff, I was not expecting it this early on.

Henry and Rumple have great potential too, but i can't believe Regina was so dumb as to think Henry's undercover idea was good. 

[AudienceofOne]

Somehow still don't find it interesting, who wrote the storybook, never really cared.

 

 

Because, as far as I understood, the book was simply a product of the curse designed to trigger Henry to get Emma. It wasn't "written" and it's certainly not fiction that can be changed. I find this whole concept not just tiresome but kind of stupid.

 

I'm holding judgement on Hook until next episode, but if he doesn't come clean with Emma by then I'm calling bs on this whole storyline.

 

 

I'm having Chuck flashbacks. I was a massive Chuck/Sarah shipper until they threw so many stupid contrived roadblocks in their way and assassinated her character so much that when they finally got together I didn't say "FINALLY", I actually no longer gave a shit. My "finally" moment for Captain Swan was the end of last season and it was perfectly paced to that point. This is just tiresome and if it's based on the idea that I'm supposed to believe Hook was ever "evil" in a psychotic, beating-people-up-for-no-reason way then I'm not buying it. Rumple might believe it because he's always hated that Hook had the audacity to be upset about him murdering Milah and chopping off his hand but then Rumple was suffering from Regina disease.

 

At this stage, I'll accept that Rumple cursed the hand and lied about it. But that doesn't make up for us having to sit through this stupid "evil hand" plot in the first place.

Edited October 20, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[Curio]

Rumple's true love is his magic and power.  His big love is Bae and even he fell short.  Belle is just there, someone who pats him on the head and tells him how good he is and yell at people who believe the opposite.

 

I've always thought Rumple is this show's version of Breaking Bad's Walter White. Rumple's true love will always be his magic, much like Walter's true love was science/making meth. Spoiler Alert for anyone who doesn't know the ending of Breaking Bad... 

The last shot of the show reveals Walt dying next to all of his chemical equipment and he's eerily at peace because he knows he was the master of his craft. I could imagine the same kind of ending for Rumple. 

I honestly think Rumple would rather die with all of his powers and magic still in tact than be transformed into a normal human again to live a normal human life with Belle.

 

But back to the episode. One moment that stood out to me for some reason was when Will was about to say who gave him the black eye, but the way he played it off when Hook walked in was well acted. I know Hook said he'd be a dead man if he told anyone about what happened, but there was something in Socha's delivery that made me think he kind of had the tiniest sliver of empathy for Hook. (Or maybe I'm reading way too much into the eye contact between those two...) I'd like to see Hook apologize in person to Will and perhaps those two can figure out how to help each other out; Hook can help with whatever Wonderland situation Will is solving, and Will can slap Hook upside the head, tell him to suck it up, and tell Emma the truth about everything.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I know Hook said he'd be a dead man if he told anyone about what happened, but there was something in Socha's delivery that made me think he kind of had the tiniest sliver of empathy for Hook.

 

Actually, I thought the same thing.  As someone who hasn't watched Wonderland but has read about the whole Will/Ana epic love or whatever, I think Will probably gets it.  Will is a drunk and thief who was in love with a queen.  Hook is a former pirate (and he said that before hitting Will) who is in love with Emma.

 

I thought the whole library scene sucked though because it didn't start out in a bad place for Hook, he was just trying to stop Will from breaking in and basically send him home.

 

So really, no one will convince me that Rumple didn't actually fuck with that hand at some point, before or after he re-attached it. 

[maryle]

The good first

Evrething Charming family and CS date actually I will have add some meaningful question about Hook past from Emma and it will have been perfect.

 The Rumple Hook part if I forget that even if Hook is a emotionnal character it is occ to suddenly be forget the consequence of dealing with Rumple.

 Fort the first time .... I like Anna in the ftl.

 

 The bad: Henry what up with his strange SL. I hope  we are suppose to see him become grayer because this sneaky Henry is nothing in commun with the Henry we knewand learned to tolerate.

The hand curse... or not if it is just to create the same unoriginal anst SL that we already had two time  Neverland Omg  Is Hook going keep secret, Neal is alive !

The lips curse repeat except for the fact he wait until too late to talk.

[blugirlami21]

I hated this episode.  Everyone acted in ways that logically made no sense considering the past and personalities of the people they were dealing with.  Why would Hook of all people, the one guy who knows that Rumple is a liar and the person he hated the most in the world ask him for anything?  Especially after you just established that he's been lying to his wife since they got married?  And when he warned you it wouldn't work out, you didn't listen to him.  And yet you seemed so surprised when he turned on you.  I know Rumple threatened Emma but I don't believe for a second that he would kill Emma, he's had that option for years.  So man up and tell Emma the truth or its going to blow up in your face even worse than the last time you kept secrets from her just a couple of months ago.

 

The storybook storyline that Regina and Henry are taking part of makes no sense.  The book is about stuff that already happened.  It doesn't predict the future, it never has.  Why would you think that if you found the author of the book that they would write you a happy ending?  How does forcing someone to give you something you have to earn work out in your favor?  What has Regina done to deserve this happy ending?  How does Henry of all people think that Regina deserves a happy ending knowing first hand what she has done and continues to do to the residents of Storybrooke?  I'm also not liking that the person with the heart of the truest believer would use deception on his own grandfather.  Granted he's evil but Henry thinks that Rumple is a nice person now.

 

Am I the only one who doesn't understand how Rumple is able to open the box?  Don't you have to be someone who has not succumbed to evil?  Wouldn't being a dark one forever forbid you of opening the box?  Especially someone like Rumple who has not really turned over a new leaf?

 

I hate how this show treats its villains, I always have.  It's like they are never responsible for anything that they do.  They never get their comeuppance and they continue to be evil and mess with peoples lives and yet this show expects us to like them and want good things for them.  It makes it really hard to take characters like Rumple and Regina seriously when they swear up and down that their not evil anymore when they still have a evil chamber of hearts or they are still blackmailing people into making deals.

Edited October 20, 2014 by blugirlami21

[Shanna Marie]

I'm going to have to rewatch tonight because I had to watch last night with my mom, and that's not an ideal viewing situation. In spite of having seen the first season, she totally forgot the format of cutting between the Enchanted Forest fairybacks and the modern present, so in the beginning when they cut from the scene with the Apprentice to Storybrooke, she immediately resumed whatever story she was telling me, thinking it was a commercial, so I missed all about Emma asking Hook out. Then I had to keep explaining stuff to her. She was really confused about the Belle they were talking about being Belle as in Beauty and the Beast, with Rumple being the Beast, and now they're married. Her reaction: "But he's evil!"

 

I suppose the setup to having Hook forced to work with Rumple was a step above a vague "for Reasons!" but not much. Of all of it, the one thing that rang totally false to me was Hook, who's known Rumple for centuries and knew him before he was the Dark One, and who devoted centuries to learning everything he could about Rumple, would ever, in a million years, blurt out "I'll do anything!" in regards to anything involving Rumple. He's too savvy to make that mistake. He might make a deal, but he'd be careful to sew up every possible loophole and make sure there were clear limits. To get to the point of him being desperate enough to make that kind of deal, he would have had to do a lot more than get aggressive with Will. But then, if it wasn't supposed to be an actually cursed hand, then they had to walk a fine line -- just bad enough to have Hook worried, but not so bad that it couldn't just be a case of self-fulfilling prophecy in which he psyched himself out. I think I could kind of have bought it if he'd made the deal with good limits and Rumple found a teeny loophole to exploit, but I really can't buy Hook ever saying "I'll do anything!" to Rumple.

 

Rumple just annoys me, I don't mind him being a villain. I mind him being such a blatant villain while Belle defends him and looks a fool because she thinks he's not a villain.

That's the part that had my mom confused, that he was doing all this clearly evil stuff and was so desperate to have power, and yet he's supposedly happily married to a Disney princess who thinks he's a good person deep down inside and we're not supposed to think she's delusional. I was thinking through the whole thing that Belle really caught herself a prize.

 

I like Henry becoming the apprentice, I was worried it would be Hook.

In spite of the sweeping at the end, I kind of think it is Hook. He's the one Rumple will apparently be using in all his stuff involving the hat. I don't think Rumple will pull Henry into that. Henry will just be working in the shop. But I am wondering how much Hook will end up paralleling Anna, since that's the connection made in this episode. Does Rumple need Hook for this scheme in the same way he needed Anna? Is there some aspect of him being the Dark One that keeps him from using the full power of the hat yet, and so he needs someone who's just the right combination of dark and good? The fact that Hook felt so terrible about the possibility of being bad and that he was willing to sacrifice so much to avoid going down a bad path shows that there's some hope for him. That may end up being what saves him.

 

Hook totally overplayed his hand in this episode.

Bravo! Slow (one-handed) clap!

 

What exactly is the plan with Operation Mongoose? Henry thinks Gold has his happy ending because he's married Belle? WTF? Didn't his son just die?

That's one of those things that has me wondering if these people even think about what they're writing. Rumple's entire reason for being was to be reunited with his son, and almost as soon as that happened, his son was dead. Henry thinks that's a happy ending just because Rumple got married? Yeah, I know that's a whole fairy tale thing, the living happily ever after because of finding a true love, but this show is supposed to be about twists on fairy tales. They've had almost as many True Love's Kisses between mothers and sons as between lovers. So you'd think they'd at least suggest that not all happy endings are romantic, that it's possible to have a happy ending without being in a romantic relationship (speaking as a happily single person, it bugs me that this is never treated as a possibility in most entertainment). Regina just did a True Love's Kiss with Henry, so why isn't he considering that maybe she does have her happy ending already?

 

And let's not start with Henry. So he is OK with Robin and Regina, even if he is a married man, but he is not OK with Emma and Hook, when he seemed to like him just fine last season (and really, he is back in Storybrooke and with Regina because Hook traded his ship for a bean and went looking for him and Emma).

That's what gets really gross. He totally approves of the idea of Regina being with a married man whose wife she tried to execute and breaking up a family with a small child, and yet he's not too keen on Emma dating a man who put everything on the line to rescue Henry from Neverland and who was instrumental in reuniting Henry with his extended family.

[Curio]

I'm going to have to rewatch tonight because I had to watch last night with my mom, and that's not an ideal viewing situation. In spite of having seen the first season, she totally forgot the format of cutting between the Enchanted Forest fairybacks and the modern present, so in the beginning when they cut from the scene with the Apprentice to Storybrooke, she immediately resumed whatever story she was telling me, thinking it was a commercial, so I missed all about Emma asking Hook out. Then I had to keep explaining stuff to her. She was really confused about the Belle they were talking about being Belle as in Beauty and the Beast, with Rumple being the Beast, and now they're married. Her reaction: "But he's evil!"

 

Ha. Yep, that was my situation last night, too. Except, I was watching with a brand new viewer who already thinks the show is super cheesy based on the commercials, so I basically spent the entire time explaining things. I can't even tell you how many times I blurted out, "Yes, you're right! None of this makes any sense! Just go with it!"

[KAOS Agent]

He totally approves of the idea of Regina being with a married man whose wife she tried to execute and breaking up a family with a small child, and yet he's not too keen on Emma dating a man who put everything on the line to rescue Henry from Neverland and who was instrumental in reuniting Henry with his extended family.

 

I'm not sure how much Henry knows about the positive things Hook has done vs the part where Hook took off with the bean. He liked him with his cursed memories, but I can see where Henry is right to be a little confused about it all. Plus, I'm not sure he has any clue what happened with Walsh, so maybe he's thinking Emma's on the rebound and this isn't the best idea ever. 

 

The Robin/Marian stuff is where Henry's character is totally assassinated. It just doesn't make any logical sense for him to be happy that Marian is frozen. Seriously, just prop Regina with positive ideas about Marian meeting someone new and her and Robin getting a divorce. Honestly, did he not just spend a year in New York City? Half his friends' parents were probably divorced and many had step-parents as well. It's the dumbest thing ever. Plus, I wonder if he'd put himself in Roland's shoes. Henry's mom almost froze to death a few days ago and that would have made Regina very happy. Would Henry have been okay with that?

Edited October 20, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[scenicbyway]

The storybook storyline that Regina and Henry are taking part of makes no sense.  The book is about stuff that already happened.  It doesn't predict the future, it never has.  Why would you think that if you found the author of the book that they would write you a happy ending?  How does forcing someone to give you something you have to earn work out in your favor?  What has Regina done to deserve this happy ending?  How does Henry of all people think that Regina deserves a happy ending knowing first hand what she has done and continues to do to the residents of Storybrooke?  I'm also not liking that the person with the heart of the truest believer would use deception on his own grandfather.  Granted he's evil but Henry thinks that Rumple is a nice person now.

 

Am I the only one who doesn't understand how Rumple is able to open the box?  Don't you have to be someone who has not succumbed to evil?  Wouldn't being a dark one forever forbid you of opening the box?  Especially someone like Rumple who has not really turned over a new leaf.

The Storybook storyline doesn't make sense because it only documents events in the Enchanted Forest.  Nothing that happens in Storybrooke ends up in the book.  That's why Emma was excited in the finale--she finally saw herself in the book, she'd only been in their as an unrelatable baby before.  Seeing the story come to life and becoming part of the story is what worked for Emma. 

 

Regina doesn't seem to understand that the book only documented her Enchanted Forest life.  I can't figure out why Henry doesn't see this either.  Isn't he curious as to why he's part of Emma's story but not in the book?

 

Rumple can open the box because he captured one of Anna's tears, therefore the dagger has the hint of innocence the box requires to open it.

[Jean]

I am beyond pisssed at the Kiss Curse redux

That's cause you guys are thinking about this from the wrong perspective. Maybe this redux story isn't for the regular Once folks. It could be A&E wanting to do the new Frozen watchers a huge favor by not making them go back and experience the joy and pure masterpiece that was 3B. Or 2nd possibility is they're hoping this piece of ingenuity will motivate the Frozen people to go back for a 2nd helping.

And don't you worry, 4B will serve up another looksie at the same story. This is American tv, served buffet style courtesy of A&E.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Jean

[Camera One]

Why bother to have Rumple at Neal's grave saying he would be a better man to Belle than he was to Bae if, 5 minutes later, he finds a magic box and all bets are off?  

 

When I watched the scene, I got the impression it was entirely meant for exposition... it was so verbose and sounded like a brief recap for the Frozen folks.

 

It could be A&E wanting to do the new Frozen watchers a huge favor by not making them go back and experience the joy and pure masterpiece that was 3B. 

 

Good plan if they want to have everyone running for the exits.  

 

Aliasscape mentioned the possibility that this week's episode could drop the ratings for next week.  I'm a little worried as well, since I can see how some Frozen folks might be turned off by the bleakness and the tedium, despite the Anna scenes.  I doubt any of them appreciated their smart sassy character signing a contract without reading it.

 

I think the writers meant for the episode to be some high level match of wits between Rumple and Hook.  Which it was, except without the high level and without the wits.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Why bother to have Rumple at Neal's grave saying he would be a better man to Belle than he was to Bae if, 5 minutes later, he finds a magic box and all bets are off?

 

I wasn't the only one thinking this! Rumple's fluff about "turning a new leaf" and "doing right by [bae]" and loving Belle is all almost sickening because it's such an obvious lie that some people on the show are believing. I sideyed Emma believing Hook's story about Rumple replacing his hand out of the goodness of his heart. The characters seems to forget who they're dealing with. Isn't it a bit of a red flag that he's still ​the Dark One even after marrying Belle? What happened to Belle's quest to remove the darkness in him with a TLK? It's all ridiculous. Rumple has them all wrapped around his finger.

 

I have a feeling Henry is going to blow it all up somehow with his new apprentice job. That's my only hope for him right now.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Worsel]

I think when Gold was at Bae's graveside he really meant what he said about trying to be a better man.  But, when he was faced with the Sorcerer's hat, his addiction to power took over and he relapsed.  

 

I'm not sure why but I think Henry is going dark this season.  I wonder if losing his happy New York life, and then losing his father has caused a loss of hope and development of anger and resentment.  I think he feels (maybe subconsciously) he did not get his happy ending.

[Dani-Ellie]

Any other show, I'd be putting the faith in the writers that they were taking Henry in this direction on purpose, maybe as a wake-up call to Regina. This show, though, with its Regina blind spot big enough that Emma saving Marian is ruining Regina's life but Regina casting the curse and taking Emma's parents away from her somehow doesn't ruin Emma's? It's just as likely that Henry's material so far this season (but especially in this episode) isn't at all supposed to come off as grody and the writers are all, "Look, you guys! Henry and Regina are bonding! Isn't this fun?"

Edited October 21, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

Just as everyone predicted, Henry was pro-Outlaw Queen. In S1, his book was the Bible to him. Now he'd be glad if a True Love couple in it was broken up. Is the real Henry trapped in a box somewhere?

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, Henry is being used solely as a prop for Regina from what we have seen so far in 4B.  They've had Henry validating Regina's ridiculous book idea for two episodes now.  Why?  If Henry is pushing the find-the-author idea because he thinks it will get Regina' mind off Robin, who already has a true love wife, then maybe it might make a little bit of sense.  Two episodes ago, they wrote a deleted scene with Henry wanting Regina erased from his memory forever.  But now he's her number 1 fan again?  Even worse than being a prop, I am wondering if Henry is actually a chesspiece for the plot, and they needed a way to put him into the Pawn Shop to precipitate some major conflict situation, and as someone said above, to tie together the Regina plot and the Rumple plot.

 

What does Emma, Snow and Charming think about Henry working for Gold?  Is this going to be addressed next episode? 

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[StaceyNotStacie]

The episode wasn't bad, but it was probably my least favorite episode of the season.  I loved the first half with the Captain Swan date and the Charmings interacting with Emma and Kilian.  I don't know who was the prettier of the two, but they both looked very nice on their date.  After minimal Elsa and a more Anna-centric episode, I can definitely say that Elsa is the character I prefer of the two (and I have never seen the Frozen movie).  It felt like Anna was being shoved down our throats in the episode.  And although it was a bit cheesy, two grown men following an animated broom was somewhat amusing.

 

Based on the previews, next week seems like it will be a pretty good episode.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Unfortunately, Henry is being used solely as a prop for Regina from what we have seen so far in 4B.

The sad part is, Regina isn't even pushing him to do so. She told him to stay away, then he came to her door. He pushed OQ, then Regina said it can't be. Then later it was him who got the idea to work for Gold. It just all poofed out of thin air from the writers' hands. There's no real catalyst to be found without headcanoning it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[AudienceofOne]

I don't know who was the prettier of the two, but they both looked very nice on their date.

 

 

I didn't say it before because I was annoyed at more important things but I hated how they looked for their date.

 

When they said they were off on their date, I added "in 1952".

[Camera One]

I thought this episode was a little unexpected for the lack of Belle.  You would have thought they would have structured this episode to show Rumple's home life with Belle.  Would he have been shame-faced for lying to Belle?  Or was he unrepentant, focused on his goal of the hat?  Did Belle notice he was getting distant sneaking off to watch Mickey Mouse's purple galactic swirl hat?  With that focus, there would have been more opportunities for Rumple to show depth in acting.  

 

Instead, the episode was framed around Gold and Hook.  Two men messing up their own happy relationships.  So it only gave Rumple the chance to be the mwahaha villain.

 

It was an interesting writing choice to make.  Though, honestly, both routes would have been equally snooze-inducing.  At least we've seen less of this than the first choice.  Maybe it's a good thing, since we got both Rumple and Hook out of the way in one episode.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[ImogenLeFay]

I'm dreading the continuation of the Hook storyline. Somehow, I don't believe that he does the smart thing and just tells Emma everything. I find that sad, I remember how happy I was after Good Form when they wrote the smart thing instead of the cliched "keep stupid secrets from each other" plot - but then there was this whole cursed lips thing which was just too stupid to bear.

Now, let's look at it from a character perspective. Hook once told Emma the truth and it worked out, and once he kept it a secret from her and it blew up in his face.

He's not saying a word, is he?

 

 

Oh, and also, did I miss something in Anna's wording to Rumple or did she tell him to never hurt her or her sister? What about Kristoff? Or the rest of Arrendale? Should they be worried now?

[Serena]

Aliasscape mentioned the possibility that this week's episode could drop the ratings for next week.  I'm a little worried as well, since I can see how some Frozen folks might be turned off by the bleakness and the tedium, despite the Anna scenes.  I doubt any of them appreciated their smart sassy character signing a contract without reading it.

There are no "Frozen folks" anymore. This week's demo ratings is 2.7 - which is basically on par with the highest ratings of S3, 2.6. The Frozen folks have checked out the show and have decided not to watch anymore - or catch up later on Netflix, or whatever.

 

One thing I don't understand is Hook and everyone repeating that Hook and Rumple know each other soooooo well. Before S2, they had seen each other TWICE: one in the tavern when Killian met Milah (and they didn't even talk) and then the second time some years later when Rumple cut off his hand for the bean. After that Hook went to Neverland and stayed there until pretty much a couple of years before the curse. Doesn't really seem to me like there's been a chance for an extended study of each other.

[kili]

I thought it was kind of icky that Rumple gave the broom to Henry to sweep (badly) with. Rumple had just used the broom to find The Apprentice and get revenge on him - effectively murdering him (and silencing the one person who knows anything about the hat). Then he gives the broom to his grandson and tells him that he is his apprentice. Who gives their grandson something they used as part of a murder/revenge plot and then gives him the same appellation as the victim?

 

And is it foreshadowing? Is Henry going to get sucked into the hat (and come back as a 15 year old)? I think they at least have to have Henry wreck some kind of havoc in the shop when he tries to do magic.

 

And why did Rumple even keep the broom? He no longer needed it. It is another one of his trophies like the hand, the puppets and the unicorn mobile? Yes, Belle, Rumple does have a good heart.

 

And how typical of this show. Rumple turns The Apprentice into a mouse to steal from him and the mouse bites him and Rumple is the one deserving of revenge. I hope that hat bites him. On the ass.

 

I think one of the reasons that Rumple is messing with Hook instead of just killing him is because he wants to destroy the Emma/Hook relationship first.  I cannot imagine a world in which Rumple is okey-dokey with the man who "took his wife" (Rumple still sees it that way and demands sympathy for her loss despite killing her) now dating his dead son's love interest. He may even be vexed that the time traveling interacted with him but left him with no info on how to save that son.

Edited October 21, 2014 by kili

[Curio]

Who gives their grandson something they used as part of a murder/revenge plot and then gives him the same appellation as the victim?

 

The same guy who gave his girlfriend an evil (albeit fake) dagger in lieu of an engagement ring?

[Guest]

I feel like someone told the writers that character development = that character changing. Just because Hook has a tendency to go all pirate-y (whatever that means, it just seems to me that he gets a bit more aggressive, that's all) doesn't mean he is a bad character. For David to give his "blessing" because he deems Hook to have changed... from what, exactly? A guy who wanted to kill Rumpel? Almost everyone did. And why is it important for David to give his blessing? Why does Hook need to have gone from evil to good, looking at his hand oh-so-dramtically as he tries to resist the "old him". If they could just have let him be as a pirate - keeping all his cunning, devious, sometimes aggressive traits - that would have shown that he has pledged allegiance to the Charmings but he has the dignity and self-respect that the name Captain Hook commands. As it is, he is just a wuss who changes at Emma (and her family's) whim. 

Don't get me started on how the change theme was dealt with in Regina's case.

Edited October 21, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[Amerilla]

I agree with Serena - I don't think Hook and and Rumpel are all that knowledgeable about one another.

 

Hook was only ever interested in how Rumpel could be killed, and since Bae inadvertently gave him that data in Neverland, it's not like Hook had to dig deep into Dark One literature to find the key. Nothing that he's ever said about Rumpel has indicated some penetrating insight into him that others would lack. In fact, you could argue that trying to blackmail Rumpel shows how little Hook actually does understand him.

 

Same with Rumpel. Before Hook re-emerged in Storybrooke, it's pretty clear that Rumpel hadn't thought about him or Milah in probably centuries. I'm not even sure Rumpel would classify Hook as an enemy, as much as "that guy the Contrivance Fairy is keeping me from turning into a bilge rat." What he did in this episode is vintage Rumpel - someone comes to him and shows his soft underbelly, and Rumpel exploits that weakness through a deal. I'm sure there's an element of fun to it, but I think its primarily that Hook was the first lunkhead to walk in the door.  

 

I'm also unconvinced that Rumpel cares all that much one way or another about torpedo-ing Hook's relationship with Emma. (You know what really nips a budding romance in the bud? Killing Hook.) He's using the threat to keep Hook in line, but his focus right now seems to be on his current Grand Scheme to get what he ultimately wants, and as we know from the past, everyone else in the world is merely collateral damage when he's in Grand Scheme mode.

[Guest]

it's pretty clear that Rumpel hadn't thought about him or Milah in probably centuries.

 

 

Which begs the question - why would Rumpel keep the severed hand?

[Jack Kerouac]

Oh, and also, did I miss something in Anna's wording to Rumple or did she tell him to never hurt her or her sister? What about Kristoff? Or the rest of Arrendale? Should they be worried now?

 

Yeah, I was thinking just that. Rumple has a free go at Kristoff and Arrendale. If I was all EEEEVIIILLLL and had been frustrated by an idiot, I would certainly extract my revenge by perhaps, oh I don't know, killing her fiance and destroying her home.

[Serena]

Actually, does the power of the orders Anna gave with the dagger even still stand when Rumple regained possession of it? It doesn't really make sense, it would mean that Rumple has to obey any order a previous owner of the dagger gave even when the dagger is in his possession/the dagger has a new owner.

[kili]

it's pretty clear that Rumpel hadn't thought about him or Milah in probably centuries.

 

He showed up pretty quick to kill Hook when he sensed his presence when Hook/Emma time traveled.  He also was confused about how future him could be around future Hook without having already killed him. He's  told his sob-story that he lost his wife to  a couple of people. He kept that hand as a trophy.

 

But honestly it makes no sense. The items in the shop are supposed to be items from people who were brought over during the curse...momentos of the personalities and lives they had lost.

 

The hand is Rumple's momento.  It's one of his souvenir's he's kept related to the loss of his son. At times, he still honestly thinks that the loss of Milah lead to the loss of Bae (it is what started him down the path). And since Hook is responsible for that loss, he is ultimately responsible for the loss of Bae.

 

Plus, there is a lot of junk in that shop that  aren't momentos of cursed people. Hook's telescope was already found in the shop. Plus, there are all those potions. Those aren't momentos, those are tools. Heck, what is Pandora's Box even doing there? And then there is all the modern junk like MIckey Mouse phones and phonographs.

[Shanna Marie]

After rewatching, I think it's painfully obvious that most of this plot was handwaving to get to the point they really wanted, which was Hook forced to work for Rumple. But getting there was absolute amateur hour in the writers' room. I won't even toss out the "fanfic" accusation because most fic writers are doing it because they care about the characters and would pay more attention to that kind of thing. It's more like the first attempt at a novel by someone who's read a few books and thinks that this would be a great way to get rich quick.

 

I'm actually not that bothered by Rumple's actions, since it turned out that the whole thing was him taking advantage of the opportunity to set up Hook. He was kind of forced to play nice last week in the first blackmail attempt because of Elsa's presence, and we now know that he may be under a compulsion not to do anything to Elsa, so even if he killed or wiped Hook he wouldn't have been able to keep Elsa from saying what happened to him.

 

But it's the Hook part that doesn't work. That's where amateur hour comes in because the more extreme and uncharacteristic an action is for a character, the stronger the motivation needs to be, and I don't buy "Well, it's the first date and I'd like to hold her with both hands" as a motivation. They needed to have set up Hook's need for his hand in a much stronger way. Say, in a previous episode (or early in this one) there was an action sequence in which he wasn't able to help Emma because whatever was needed required two good hands and the hook didn't help, leading David to have to be the one to step in and help Emma while Hook had to stand by. Or, if instead of them being all "plot, plot, plot" and rushing to get to the point where Hook is working for Rumple, they let it breathe a little and had the first date with the hook, and some awkward moments because of that -- him struggling to eat one-handed in a nice restaurant, they're ending the evening walking along the docks and eating ice cream and he realizes he can't hold her hand and hold the ice cream at the same time, and she just holds his hook, being totally okay with that but he feels weird about it because it's not the same as holding hands, or when he goes to kiss her good-night, he accidentally pokes her with the hook, and she laughs about it, but it cuts the kiss short and he feels bad about it. Then I might have believed he'd even think of asking for his hand back, let alone be willing to make a deal with his worst enemy to do so.

 

But then there's the problem with the blackmail part of the plot. Would Hook really think that Belle would believe anything he said about Rumple? This is the woman who learned from him that Rumple murdered his wife, and her response was to tell him that Rumple had a good heart and he had a black heart that could never understand love and she went on to marry Rumple. Hook has no reason to think she wouldn't laugh in his face and tell him she knows he's lying because her Rumple has such a good heart he would never deceive her like that. She'd probably refuse to test it, and Rumple could easily just fake obeying or temporarily swap the daggers. If they wanted to set up a reason for Hook to think she might listen to him this time, that needed to have started earlier, like maybe with Hook and Belle interacting more last season during the Zelena hunt -- like if we'd seen the scene of them being together when they got the news about Neal's death and she saw that his grief was genuine or if we'd seen them researching together and discovering that they both loved books. At the very least we needed the scene where she told him she was wrong about him, that he had really changed. That would not only have made Hook look like less of an idiot for thinking she'd even believe him, but it would have added to his dilemma if he'd started thinking of her as a friend so that as things went on and he learned more about what Rumple was up to, he was not only worried about what Emma would think but also feeling bad about Belle being so deceived.

 

Last summer, I had a weirdly vivid dream in which Hook discovered that Rumple was up to something, and Rumple immediately conjured up a sword and ran him through with it. He watched as Hook was dying, taunting him the whole time, then at the last second, he magically healed him. Then he told him that the healing would be undone if he ever told anyone. That actually would have made a good way to get into the "Hook works for Rumple" plot, if Hook discovered the truth about the dagger, Rumple nearly killed him, then saved him with the condition that he couldn't tell anyone and he had to do what Rumple demanded. Coming immediately after Emma talking about being worried about losing him, that would have made Hook have a good reason to go along with it, for fear of traumatizing Emma with his death so soon after she decided to drop the walls. And even if the "good man facing darkness" is key here, that would still apply if he's doing bad things in order to protect someone he loves from something he knows she fears. So, does this mean I can come up with better plots than these writers do in my sleep?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Plus, there is a lot of junk in that shop that  aren't momentos of cursed people. Hook's telescope was already found in the shop. Plus, there are all those potions. Those aren't momentos, those are tools. Heck, what is Pandora's Box even doing there? And then there is all the modern junk like MIckey Mouse phones and phonographs.

Sometimes I wonder where he keeps all his magic stuff in that mess of modern day and EF antiques. Under all the floorboards maybe? He had to keep cursed Mr. Gold and Regina from finding it all those years.

 

But then there's the problem with the blackmail part of the plot. Would Hook really think that Belle would believe anything he said about Rumple?

 

Hook's way of letting Belle know it's a fake was revealed in 4x02. He said he'd have Belle summon the Dark One, only to find him not appearing like he should. It's weak, I know.

[ShadowFacts]

 

In fact, you could argue that trying to blackmail Rumpel shows how little Hook actually does understand him.

 

I'd argue that anyone who tries to blackmail the dark one betrays a lack of understanding and basic critical thinking skills.  Hook should be way smarter than this.

 

 

What he did in this episode is vintage Rumpel - someone comes to him and shows his soft underbelly, and Rumpel exploits that weakness through a deal. I'm sure there's an element of fun to it, but I think its primarily that Hook was the first lunkhead to walk in the door.

 

Yes to this.  That is how Rumpel operates.  What I don't get is why he needed anyone's help in the first place.  Did I miss something or is this yet to be revealed? Why couldn't he have followed the ridiculous broom to the apprentice's house (which was rigged with video cam?) and do the job himself?  Does he just want a stooge in place for future machinations?  That doesn't wash with me since he is so powerful he could have brought down the ice walls with a thought.  If he doesn't really need an "apprentice", then I see an element of pure revenge in play. 

[Shanna Marie]

Hook's way of letting Belle know it's a fake was revealed in 4x02. He said he'd have Belle summon the Dark One, only to find him not appearing like he should. It's weak, I know.

But would Hook really have any reason to believe Belle would cooperate, or would she just tell him she trusts Rumple and has no need to prove anything? She was really uncomfortable in the scene when Rumple asked her to use the dagger to prove he wasn't lying, and it was Rumple making the request. If Hook asked her and Rumple wasn't there, she'd laugh in his face and say that between Rumple and Hook, she'd choose to trust Rumple and she'd tell Hook to get out.

[stealinghome]

Yes to this.  That is how Rumpel operates.  What I don't get is why he needed anyone's help in the first place.  Did I miss something or is this yet to be revealed? Why couldn't he have followed the ridiculous broom to the apprentice's house (which was rigged with video cam?) and do the job himself?  Does he just want a stooge in place for future machinations?  That doesn't wash with me since he is so powerful he could have brought down the ice walls with a thought.  If he doesn't really need an "apprentice", then I see an element of pure revenge in play.

If I'm an evil mastermind, having a stooge in my back pocket would never seem like a bad thing, I don't think. I doubt Rumpel needed Hook's help, but why not make himself a complicit minion? Hook might be useful as a tool further down the road. No sense in limiting one's options. So: ITA that Rumpel was totally enjoying the revenge he was getting on Hook, but I suspect he would have done the same thing no matter who was in his shop.

[Jean]

 

There are no "Frozen folks" anymore. This week's demo ratings is 2.7 - which is basically on par with the highest ratings of S3, 2.6. The Frozen folks have checked out the show and have decided not to watch anymore - or catch up later on Netflix, or whatever.

I still think those are "Frozen" folks. Either lapsed viewers who left and would've never came back but is checking it out for Frozen or the purely Frozen folks never seen a single episode of Once.

 

WIthout "Frozen" Once would've gotten their usual year-to-year or season drop in ratings like other old serial drama shows also experience. They were in the low 2s by the end of S3 so S4 I would've expect to be below 2.0 or around that mark. So yeah all the gains I see, I think is clearly attributed to Frozen.

[Serena]

He showed up pretty quick to kill Hook when he sensed his presence when Hook/Emma time traveled.  He also was confused about how future him could be around future Hook without having already killed him. He's  told his sob-story that he lost his wife to  a couple of people. He kept that hand as a trophy.

But present!Hook (not the time traveler) was hanging out in the tavern and getting drunk. If Rumple REALLY had wanted, he could have shown up there (he wasn't exactly hiding) and killed him without batting an eye. All this "I should have killed you when I had the chance" nonsense from Rumple makes no sense. He had ALL the chances.

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more about how effective the blackmail could possibly be, would Belle even care that she has a fake dagger? She didn't want the dagger in the first place. She fell in love with Rumple while he had total control of his own dagger and therefore had no check on his powers, so the current situation is merely the status quo. She might be a little bothered that he lied to her, but she'd probably find some "good heart" excuse for it. She might even see it as a relief to learn that she's not really in control of him. So, really, it comes back to Hook telling her about the fake and her either laughing in his face and not believing or learning the truth and saying it doesn't change anything. She'd probably blame Hook for stirring things up more than she blames Rumple for the dagger switch.

[YaddaYadda]

But it's one thing for Rumple to still be in control of the dagger and her not giving a shit about it, but he is seeking absolute power, this is what he is after and he sucked a man into his hat because he stood in his way.  All these things, Hook has witnessed.  She can call him a liar and screech at him all she wants, the truth remains the truth.  So Belle can go ahead and bury her head in the sand all she wants and excuse Rumple's behavior until the cows come home, she is his biggest enabler.

 

It's like feeding someone's drug habit. 

[stealinghome]

There's a difference between not finding Hook in particular trustworthy and excusing/enabling Rumpel's behavior, though. I fully expect the you-know-what to hit the fan for Rumbelle when Belle finds out about the dagger lie (probably just as she finds out she's pregnant, because of course that's how this show rolls). They've just worked too hard to set that up to not have it come crashing down around Rumpel's head. But at the same time, I wouldn't blame Belle for laughing in Hook's face and not believing a single thing he says. I mean, their history basically consists of Hook abusing Belle and then not even feeling badly enough about it to give her even a halfway sincere apology (despite the fact that he's apparently "a better person" and "redeemed" now...glad his regrets don't include beating up on defenseless women). In Belle's shoes, I wouldn't believe a single thing out of Hook's mouth either.

Edited October 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[Serena]

There's a difference between not finding Hook in particular trustworthy and excusing/enabling Rumpel's behavior, though. I fully expect the you-know-what to hit the fan for Rumbelle when Belle finds out about the dagger lie (probably just as she finds out she's pregnant, because of course that's how this show rolls). They've just worked too hard to set that up to not have it come crashing down around Rumpel's head. But at the same time, I wouldn't blame Belle for laughing in Hook's face and not believing a single thing he says. I mean, their history basically consists of Hook abusing Belle and then not even feeling badly enough about it to give her even a halfway sincere apology (despite the fact that he's apparently "a better person" and "redeemed" now...glad his regrets don't include beating up on defenseless women). In Belle's shoes, I wouldn't believe a single thing out of Hook's mouth either.

On the other hand, though, the last time Hook and Rumple told her two different version of a story, Hook was telling the truth and Rumple was lying. Hook has physically hurt her, it's true, but he has NOT lied to her and Rumple has. If it were me, that would give me pause.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, if Belle as a character was anything other than a Rumpel prop, she would have been given pause a long time ago. But my point was simply that given Hook's history of violence against Belle, I can understand why hearing something from him particularly wouldn't faze her at all. People tend not to trust people who have abused them. Belle would be more likely to trust the dagger lie reveal if just about anyone other than Hook told her about it.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Belle would feel angry and betrayed if she discovered the dagger deception on her own. But if Rumple had called Hook's bluff on the blackmail so that Hook had to go tell Belle about the dagger, I have a hard time imagining that she'd be too worked up about it. For one thing, she wouldn't believe him enough to test it and for another, I think she'd blame the messenger, just as she seemed to blame Hook about Rumple killing Milah and blamed the man Rumple was beating to death for "making" Rumple go dark. She'd be angrier about Hook trying to ruin her marriage and blackmailing Rumple than she'd be about Rumple deceiving her. Just imagine the scene: "Belle, there's something you should know. The dagger the Dark One gave you is a fake, and he still holds the real one. He's been lying to you." "How dare you say such things about Rumple? He's got a good heart, better than yours will ever be. You've already ruined his first marriage. Now you want to ruin his new marriage and his happiness, too?" "But you can test it. Try summoning him and see what happens." "I don't need to test it. I trust him because I love him. I don't trust you. You're just a lying pirate."

 

This is why the whole thing is a writing fail. They haven't convinced me that Hook has any reason to think that Belle would believe him or that Belle would care what Hook told her. They set up this plot very badly, and it reeks of them just waving their hands to come up with a reason to make Hook work with Rumple because that's needed for the main plot. Obviously, they don't actually care about the dagger/hand blackmail stuff because it's just a means to an end.