S05.E16: Dark Side Of The Moon

[DittyDotDot]

Sam and Dean are killed and find themselves in Heaven.

 

This episode could've easily been one of my absolute favorites...if it weren't for the Lofflin and Dabb conflict factor. They start off so very strong, but somehow got off track with this one again.

 

I absolutely adore the beginning of this episode. Dean and wee Sam and the fireworks is such a beautiful moment. I love that the show took them to Heaven; I love the idea that Heaven is what you make it; I love that the Axis Munde is a road to them; I love Cass showing up in radios and televisions; and I love the insight we see in both of their heavens and think all that is important and really almost perfect.

 

But not long after Ash shows up the episode starts to derail for me. I'm not sure why Dean felt the need to piss all over Pamela's afterlife--I don't disagree with Dean that Heaven is messed up, but Pamela was already dead, did she really need Dean to point out how her afterlife sucked too? And I never got why Zachariah would think Mary berating Dean and Zachariah acting like a creepy asshole would get him the results he wanted. I'd think by now Zachariah would've learned that the more he pushed the boys--Dean in particular--they pushed back harder. I'm also conflicted about Joshua--it's just another S5 episode that feels like it's all for naught in the end. I get this is supposed to be the episode where Sam learns that Dean's lost faith in him and their mission, I'm just not in love with all of it.

 

I do think the good outweighs the bad here, though, so I do really like it; just wish I could love it. That "I wuv hugs" moment cracks me the hell up (although I think they missed a golden opportunity to put Sam in a onsie here ;) ) and Dean with his mom is totally heartbreaking. I also love Sam's excitement over seeing Bones and when they walk outside of Sam's Flagstaff memory into the one of the night he left Dean and John, Sam's face when he realizes what memory he walked into is just as heartbreaking, IMO.

 

And, I've always believed that Sam dug that necklace out of the garbage and has it tucked away somewhere safe.

[mertensia]

I always notice that Dean's Heaven is making others happy. I'm not sure if it's because he has no standout memories of people making him happy or if we just didn't see them.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think that's when Dean is happiest, when others he cares for are happy. What Is And What Should Never Be kinda sealed that deal for me. I don't think Dean was so happy in the wishverse, but wanted everyone else to have happy outcomes so he wanted to stay and experience their happiness. Also, episodes like Provenance where Dean is encouraging Sam to get back out there and enjoy himself more; A Very Supernatural Christmas where Dean tries to cheer Sam up by giving him a Christmas and; Free To Be You And Me when he tries to give Cass a little bit of joy before they trap Raphael kinda highlight this also. Which totally lines up with his lack of hunger in My Bloody Valentine, IMO. Which reminds me, how much better this episode would have been served if they had kept them in their original airing order. Also, the beginning where their hotel room looked like they'd had a frat party for a couple of days running would have lined up better with Dean's drinking and praying at the end of My Bloody Valentine. Sorry, I know I've harped on this already, but I can't help it.

 

Anyway, Sam's Heaven also makes perfect sense to me--Sam's Heaven seems to be all the times he ran away--it's all about the times he felt in control of his life. I think Sam needed to see his Heaven and Dean's Heaven to understand he doesn't need to run away and hide to feel in control of his life. I think if they had kept tripping through Heaven after their little argument over whether they were a team or not we probably would have seen Sam's Heaven including Dean in light of what Sam had already seen. Or I'm just making that up to make myself feel better, who knows, right?

Edited October 20, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

I really like this episode, but like DittyDotDot, I'm torn about some of the scenes after Ash shows up. Perhaps for different reasons though. I liked Ash in the show and missed him after he was killed, so I enjoyed seeing him back here and I enjoyed the hints of what he became in heaven, and that was sort of my frustration. I wasn't as interested in the Pamela/Dean interaction as perhaps I should've been. I understood each of their positions concerning heaven, but the "argument" seemed kind of awkward and forced to me.

 

I also missed the Pamela/Sam interaction we had had before on the show. I had liked that Pamela paid attention to both brothers in the past, flirtily playing them up against each other, so where was her smacking Sam on the ass? * And after the disagreement, I wasn't so into her being into the kiss with Dean. I didn't get the connection between them since after their disagreement, they should've maybe been less connected. I don't know. It just seemed - weird and awkward to me, but maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, I found myself less interested in Pamela and Dean and wishing I could be over there on the other side of the room listening to Ash and Sam. In my head after this episode, I had Ash getting up to all sorts of angel annoying shenanigans in heaven, and enjoyed imagining him as some sort of rebel who reunited souls in heaven with each other.

 

* Okay, yeah I get that they had that whole Pamela sees "darkness" thing in Sam before she died, but since they were trying to move away from that in this season, it might have been nice if they somehow wrapped that up by either having Pamela see that Sam had changed or ... something. Her mostly ignoring him seemed sort of awkward to me.

 

And I never got why Zachariah would think Mary berating Dean and Zachariah acting like a creepy asshole would get him the results he wanted. I'd think by now Zachariah would've learned that the more he pushed the boys--Dean in particular--they pushed back harder.

 

For me Zachariah was somewhat conflicted at this point. He was torn between trying to do his job - which with  his personality was never going to happen - and taking revenge for the brothers ruining his "reputation" as top dog. And since he felt hat heaven was his domain, he was going to take his revenge even if that meant he didn't get the job done, and Zach thought he had a good long time to enjoy that revenge. I thought Zachariah explained his fairly short-sighted motivation well when he said that he was the last person Sam and Dean wanted to mess with because "Lucifer may be strong, but I'm petty." At his point - pre-Adam option - I thought Zach was pretty much almost accepting defeat here and was mostly going for the revenge and maybe getting them to say yes if he was lucky as a benefit. I've met a few petty personalities in my life (unfortunately) and sometimes they would rather "lose" if it meant they could have an excuse to hold and enact a grudge. And yup, Zach is being the poster boy for that here.

 

I also love Sam's excitement over seeing Bones and when they walk outside of Sam's Flagstaff memory into the one of the night he left Dean and John, Sam's face when he realizes what memory he walked into is just as heartbreaking, IMO.

 

I agree. Sam wants so much not to cause Dean any more distress, and after Dean's reaction to the Flagstaff memory, he just knows that it will.

 

And, I've always believed that Sam dug that necklace out of the garbage and has it tucked away somewhere safe.

 

Me too, but I think the show would never address it again, so I must fanwank that Sam would honor Dean's wishes and never let Dean know he had it.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm also conflicted about Joshua--it's just another S5 episode that feels like it's all for naught in the end. I get this is supposed to be the episode where Sam learns that Dean's lost faith in him and their mission, I'm just not in love with all of it.

It's also the episode where they stop looking for God.  I always felt like they never had plan for the Apocalypse because TFW was waiting for God to step in and take care of it.  This is the episode when they realized that was never going to happen and they had to take care of things themselves.

 

So, for me, it's not one of the "all for naught in the end" episodes.  For me, it's one of the S5 game changers.

[DittyDotDot]

That's a good point DD, I hadn't really thought of it that way I guess.

[AwesomO4000]

Good point, DementedDaisy.

 

And I, too didn't quite look at it this way *, because Dean wasn't there yet, but you're right in that this is the beginning of that. After this episode, Castiel has to accept that his "father" is not going to help him and he has to give up on that option. Sam decides he's ready to fight. Dean does to, although not in the same way and he's not quite thinking Team Free Will is capable, but you're right in that this is the beginning of that change when the hope of "help" is over and now it's up to only them for better or for worse.

 

* The feeling was there, but because everyone was sort of broken up at the end of the episode, that was usually the take away for me. But it was the beginning of the shift in focus for the guys, even if they didn't start out in the same place.

[ohjoy]

I agree with the previous assessments -- this episode starts out great, but then kind of lises something in the latter part before before the heartbreaking "bye bye amulet" ending. I was never a huge huge fan of Pamela, so she didn't really faze me one way or the other, but I wish we could have seen more of Ash.

But honestly, at least 75% of my love for this episode is contained in that cold open. The idiot hunters shooting Sam, right in front of Dean no less, with him specifically planning to come back from the dead and kill them back (heh), and then that final gunshot -- I don't ever remember the title card syncing from the opening so well before then. At the time I saw I it I was completely enthralled for what was to come.Definitely one of my favorite starts ever.

[supposebly]

Can I give a honorable mention to:

 

Dean: I'm dead.

Cas: Condolences.

Me: Heh.

 

Overall, I do agree, it started really well and then, it sort of got overblown, unsubtle and annoying, especially with fake Mary at the end. And I don't know either what that argument with Pamela was about. It's still better than hell. Dead is the end, so I don't understand what the problem is with things not changing.

 

My dear Dean, you do remember that you and Sam weren't a team back then.

And my dear writers, that's what most of season 1 was about, to make them come together as brothers? There was so much to talk about and that's what they focused on?

[rue721]

It's so strange to go from the episodes being aired currently back to this, gives a person whiplash!

 

This time through, I noticed that just like Sam's heaven memories were all times when he was away from Dean, all of Dean's heaven memories were when he was away from John. In the fireworks memory (which I thought was pitch perfect, loved it), Kid!Sam says something about John being out of town and (from memory, sorry for this being inexact!) "Thanks, Dean. Dad would never have let us do this!" Also, they're celebrating *Independence* Day of all holidays, lol. Then in the memory of Dean eating lunch with Mary, most of the memory seems to be focused on John not being at home for a few days and the marriage being on the rocks. Seems weird that that would be a happy memory at all, let alone (apparently) one of the happiest memories of Dean's life? I get why Dean found the memory of Sam estranging himself from the family to go to college upsetting and hurtful, but meanwhile, he himself dredged up a memory of John threatening to estrange himself from the family and cast it as a happy event in his mind, too.

 

I'm not really going anywhere with this, it's just something I hadn't thought about before. I don't really think that Sam wanted to get away from Dean or that Dean wanted to get away from John, particularly. They've got free will, after all, I guess they could have left and stayed gone if they'd really wanted to? Or maybe not, honestly. I dunno.

 

It's strange that the guys both apparently created their heavens out of memories that are basically variations on "when the cat's away, the mice will play," and then Dean gets angry about God not coming back to set things straight, isn't it? I mean, the whole time they're in heaven it's like this wish-fulfillment Down With Authority! fun zone, but then when it turns out that God is actually MIA, for good, that freedom suddenly isn't fun anymore, it's a burden in and of itself.

 

I guess also, the hurt that Dean feels when he sees that Sam's memories are all about getting away from him/the family, is anogolous to the hurt that God would ostensibly feel about people/angels using their free will to get away from him. And therefore feeling like he should just abandon people/angels to their lot. I'm hazy on the mytharc that was going on at that time, though, so that might be a total reach.

[DittyDotDot]

For me Zachariah was somewhat conflicted at this point. He was torn between trying to do his job - which with  his personality was never going to happen - and taking revenge for the brothers ruining his "reputation" as top dog. And since he felt hat heaven was his domain, he was going to take his revenge even if that meant he didn't get the job done, and Zach thought he had a good long time to enjoy that revenge. I thought Zachariah explained his fairly short-sighted motivation well when he said that he was the last person Sam and Dean wanted to mess with because "Lucifer may be strong, but I'm petty." At his point - pre-Adam option - I thought Zach was pretty much almost accepting defeat here and was mostly going for the revenge and maybe getting them to say yes if he was lucky as a benefit. I've met a few petty personalities in my life (unfortunately) and sometimes they would rather "lose" if it meant they could have an excuse to hold and enact a grudge. And yup, Zach is being the poster boy for that here.

 

Oh, I get he's taking out his frustrations and all, I just never understood why it is that Zachariah never seemed to learn. He was kinda a one-trick pony throughout S5. He was always gonna "force" Dean to say yes and I just kept waiting for him to realize that's not how you get Dean to do something--he should've learned that from S4, IMO. I guess I just kept waiting for the show to do something surprising and/or and unusual with Zachariah in S5, but sadly they did not.

 

 

I guess also, the hurt that Dean feels when he sees that Sam's memories are all about getting away from him/the family, is anogolous to the hurt that God would ostensibly feel about people/angels using their free will to get away from him. And therefore feeling like he should just abandon people/angels to their lot. I'm hazy on the mytharc that was going on at that time, though, so that might be a total reach.

 

That's a good observation that Dean's memories are all times when John was absent from Dean's life. I'm guessing that the show found God and John analogous from the standpoint of they were both fathers that disappeared just as the story got started and left their children behind with vague instructions to sort it all out.

 

 

It's also the episode where they stop looking for God.  I always felt like they never had plan for the Apocalypse because TFW was waiting for God to step in and take care of it.  This is the episode when they realized that was never going to happen and they had to take care of things themselves.

 

So, for me, it's not one of the "all for naught in the end" episodes.  For me, it's one of the S5 game changers.

 

I've been thinking about this since yesterday, I had totally never thought of it this way--I love it when that happens, btw. I never considered that either Sam or Dean really thought Castiel's plan to find God would come to fruition. I always thought they were just humoring him because they had no other ideas anyway. But, now I've been kinda viewing this a bit differently. It's interesting when you look back and think they were just trying to hold out long enough for God to show up and fix it all for them. Like teenagers who go off to college and get themselves into trouble with a bunch of bone-head decisions and still expect Mom or Dad to step in and fix it for them like they did when you lived in their house. But this time Mom and Dad decide it's time to grow up and fix your own problems. Interesting.

Edited October 21, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, I get he's taking out his frustrations and all, I just never understood why it is that Zachariah never seemed to learn. He was kinda a one-trick pony throughout S5. He was always gonna "force" Dean to say yes and I just kept waiting for him to realize that's not how you get Dean to do something--he should've learned that from S4, IMO. I guess I just kept waiting for the show to do something surprising and/or and unusual with Zachariah in S5, but sadly they did not.

 

I can see that, and I get what you mean about doing something more surprising with Zachariah, but for the most part, I'm not sure that most angels are wired that way. With a few exceptions, most angels we see on this series are fairly single-minded and once they seem to get an idea and strategy in their head, they go with it full-speed ahead. Even Micahel - as powerful as he was - was that way. The main exceptions - Castiel and Gabriel and

(Balthazar)

seem to have become that way due to their interactions with humanity or human vices. Castiel started out pretty single-minded as well until he evolved - and he had a head start by being stationed on earth to watch for what was it 2,000 years? (I'm not remembering exactly when he talked about that, so I hope it's not a spoiler here. Someone please correct me or spoil tag it for me if it is.)

 

Zach just wasn't willing to see humans as anything worthy of his trying to change even if the task would've been done better that way. Even when he got another chance - with Adam - he still went back to his same old strategy, still aggravated that it didn't work. I guess the sort of take home here is no free will = no creativity or adaptability. And I was okay with that within the construct of angel "personality" as had been presented. It didn't always make for surprising angel villans, but I took it for what it was.

Edited October 21, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

Reading all these as we are getting down to the final votes in the 'survival' game.  Fascinating comments.  I love the idea of the parallel with God dealing with the whole free-will issue.

 

Re: Dean's memories. While they could be "get away from John", they could also be "pleased the ones he loved" memories.  Sam was SOOOO happy in that field. Gives me FEELS every time. And Mary was happy and huggy.  And then there's PIE.  Like PIE=GOOD is part of Dean's DNA and it always hurts a little bit when he wants pie now. 

[rue721]

Re: Dean's memories. While they could be "get away from John", they could also be "pleased the ones he loved" memories.  Sam was SOOOO happy in that field. Gives me FEELS every time. And Mary was happy and huggy.  And then there's PIE.  Like PIE=GOOD is part of Dean's DNA and it always hurts a little bit when he wants pie now.

 

My only thing with this is, wouldn't it then make sense for him to have memories about pleasing John, too? He obviously did care about that in his actual life. Also, it wasn't just that John happened not to be there in both the memories we saw, if he had been there, those memories specifically couldn't have happened. Sam says so in the fireworks memory, and the only reason that the lunch with Mary was a memory at all is because John was fighting with her and she needed comforting.

 

I don't actually think that Dean wanted to get away from John, just like I believed Sam when he said that he didn't want to get away from Dean -- I think that they were just coming up with memories of what they considered to be freedom. I think for Sam, that was pretty literal freedom, as in, striking out on his own (like running away to the cabin with Bones), going someplace new (like having an Old Fashioned Thanksgiving Dinner with his first girlfriend), and being independent seemed like it was an essential part of what freedom meant for him. For Sam, I think he was imagining having the freedom to explore the world and his limitations in a more literal sense, as in literally going to new places and trying new things. For Dean, I think he was imagining having the freedom to explore different parts of himself, or even different roles he might play.

 

W/r/t Dean in particular, I think that fit in well with other episodes that were airing at around the same time, like My Bloody Valentine -- it seemed like for a long time his big fear was that he was losing or had lost his humanity, and was basically just a useful shell (also literally a useful shell, for (iIrc) Michael), so I think that it made sense that the freedom to explore parts of himself or roles he could play that had nothing to do with his "job" was going to be his idea of heaven.

 

The memory with Mary is just so strange to me, because she wasn't happy, and Dean actually didn't succeed in comforting her -- he couldn't. It's great to have your toddler son saying he loves you and all, but that doesn't undo your husband acting like and maybe even saying that he doesn't. Same thing with the memory of lighting fireworks with Sam -- they were celebrating Independence Day, but in that memory they *weren't* actually independent, or they were only independent as far as they were out of John's reach for the moment. When Sam left the family for college and claimed his independence for real, that was apparently one of the worst days of Dean's life. The fireworks were a fascimile of independence that wasn't real independence, just like the hug with Mary was a fascimile of them having a perfect family that wasn't really a perfect family (which imo is also why Dean says that their parents' marriage was only ~perfect~ after she was dead), and just like Heaven itself was a fascimile of happy times back when they were alive. Maybe that's why Dean started getting so bitter with Pamela about Heaven just being "memorex"?

[7kstar]

I don't actually think that Dean wanted to get away from John, just like I believed Sam when he said that he didn't want to get away from Dean -- I think that they were just coming up with memories of what they considered to be freedom.l

 

The memory with Mary is just so strange to me, because she wasn't happy, and Dean actually didn't succeed in comforting her -- he couldn't. It's great to have your toddler son saying he loves you and all, but that doesn't undo your husband acting like and maybe even saying that he doesn't. Same thing with the memory of lighting fireworks with Sam -- they were celebrating Independence Day, but in that memory they *weren't* actually independent, or they were only independent as far as they were out of John's reach for the moment. When Sam left the family for college and claimed his independence for real, that was apparently one of the worst days of Dean's life. The fireworks were a fascimile of independence that wasn't real independence, just like the hug with Mary was a fascimile of them having a perfect family that wasn't really a perfect family (which imo is also why Dean says that their parents' marriage was only ~perfect~ after she was dead), and just like Heaven itself was a fascimile of happy times back when they were alive. Maybe that's why Dean started getting so bitter with Pamela about Heaven just being "memorex"?

One of the issues I think they explored was Dean's love for family and taking care of family.  It is so engrained in him, that it started much sooner than Sam ever imagined and this memory was important for Sam to get a new perspective of his brother.  Sam has a lot of growth in this ep, which is one of the reasons I really like it.  He gets an insight to how complex his brother really is and Dean gets to see first hand how important it is for Sam to leave and how unaware he was of it.  Two brothers longing for something so different.

 

Zach is supposed to be a dick and a broken record incapable of creating a new idea so he gives it up for one goal, revenge.  So I didn't have a problem with him, but it is a shame he couldn't have tried something new.

 

I think the point of Dean and Pam, is Dean is disappointed to find out how rigid heaven is.  So once you've explored all your greatest hits what's left.  You find yourself stuck in false memories with fake people and how on earth is that honoring the memory you have of your family, especially his mother.  So I get his anger and he lashes out at the one person that seems find with it.

 

There has always been shows that said, if you got your dreams you would become so bored.  I think Pam is smart enough to understand why Dean is reacting the way he is and is attempting to persuade Dean into a new way of thinking.

 

I honestly don't know the original air dates but this ep does do a big build up and once again it is like the writers can't deliver.

 

I see weak spots but yes I do really like this one.  I'll join those of you that believe Sam has the necklace and is waiting for the right time to give it back, we may never see it on screen though. 

[supposebly]

ETA: Deleted because I seem to repeat myself.

Edited June 4, 2015 by supposebly

[GirlyGeek]

Everytime I watch this episode I come away from it feeling like the whole Heaven scene was orchestrated by Zach. The memories they got were divisive (helps Zachs cause), Pam trying to recruit Dean was like she was a direct mouthpiece for Zach, Mary (so creepy) showed that Zach could control what Dean and Sam saw in Heaven, and Ash confidently helping them to get around Heaven..

Joshua seemed like the only thing that was real there.

Oh yeah, and Sam totally saved the necklace.

[supposebly]

If true, it certainly seemed to work since it started sending Dean on the road to saying yes. I see how one might feel that. Hell, I'm still not sure if The End is a possible future or just something Zachariah cooked up in order to manipulate Dean.

 

Just somehow, it feels like something that is a lot smarter and psychologically much more complex than how Zachariah normally seems to work. The Mary scene, sure, that seems in his wheelhouse, using Adam as bait in Point of no Return, absolutely, but all the other scenes? I doubt it.

 

And their memories are divisive, as Sam kept saying, he didn't see things the way Dean saw them. I don't think any manipulation was necessary.

 

And Cas was very desperate for them to find God and the only reason they ran away from Zachariah was because Cas asked them to.

[Dobian]

Heaven on this show doesn't seem very great when you think about it.  Everyone's "land" is just a population of one, unless you or people you know figure out how to travel to each other's heavens.  That's pretty lonely.

 

I did like the early scenes a lot with their trips through the memories.  I want to adopt Bones.

 

Zachariah is still a sleazy douchebag.  He'd make a much better demon than an angel.  I hope he winds up down there eventually.

 

I really felt for Cas losing his faith at the end of the episode.  And Dean.  But Cas was more unexpected.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Dobian

[Diane]

So in honor of the beautiful full moon and I am pretty sure this ep is going to bite the dust in our game, I rewatched tonight. This has one of my favorite scenes in the all the series, I absolutely love Dean and the fireworks with young Sam. My favorite young Sam and the pure joy on both the faces, just magical. Deans and SAM's face seeing their Mom. Learning that Dean has always had to take care of everyone, just heartbreaking. He loves pie because his mom made it for him, makes me tear up every time. I'm not sure what to think about when Sam ran away, the look on Deans face (did John beat him, I don't know) he was clearly very upset either because he thought Sam was dead or John tore him a new one. Love seeing Ash again, miss him on the show. 

I do think the memories that they experienced were picked to turn the boys against each other, maximum emotional impact. 

I like Joshua, liked the actor that played him and his interactions with the boys. But his message just sucks, although what he says always reminds me of the joke about the man that drowns because God will save him even thought God sent him all these ways to be saved and he didn't take advantage of them.  This message just sucks and makes God out to be a jerk. It is his problem and he should have intervened. 

All of their sadness and just lost of all hope at the end of the episode, it's just heart breaking. 

Still it's in my top 5.

[lmdreamer]

I liked this episode but I always thought that maybe sams memories were somehow influenced by Zachariah as a way to manipulate dean against sam.  I'm not saying these events didn't happen but maybe their importance to sam was exaggerated.  If the angel could alter a voice recording and control the heaven vision of mary, then why not a few memories?

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

I liked this episode but I always thought that maybe sams memories were somehow influenced by Zachariah as a way to manipulate dean against sam.  I'm not saying these events didn't happen but maybe their importance to sam was exaggerated.  If the angel could alter a voice recording and control the heaven vision of mary, then why not a few memories?

My impression was that the boys memories were legitimate and unaltered. I think the manipulation was in not showing any of Sams happy memories of Dean &  family which further influenced Deans already growing distrust of Sam.

Quote

the look on Deans face (did John beat him, I don't know) he was clearly very upset either because he thought Sam was dead or John tore him a new one.

 

 

I think it's both. Dean thought Sam was dead but that look did not cross Dean's face until he recalled Johns reaction.  IMO John physically and mentally abused Dean about this incident. I have never in all the occasions that Dean has been confronted by something he feared EVER seen him look that horrified. And I don't think a memory of a grounding or even  Deans own self-recrimination would yield that reactionJMHO

[Hanahope]

It was nice seeing Ash again, Pamela, eh.  Kind of sad that God decided to stay away, doesn't seem to care about his humans.  

Interesting idea about heaven, do people get just one main memory or several? 

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Interesting idea about heaven, do people get just one main memory or several? 

I think you can have as many memories as you want, but it's just a memory not the real thing. Basically, heaven is a lie. You don't get to reunite with your loved ones, you just get to repeat your memories of them.

Still though, better than the basement.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I liked 'the road' winding its way through Heaven in this one - and Cass said different people see different things: a river, etc.  We don't see that anymore.  It's a shame.

[Wayward Son]

56 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think you can have as many memories as you want, but it's just a memory not the real thing. Basically, heaven is a lie. You don't get to reunite with your loved ones, you just get to repeat your memories of them.

Still though, better than the basement.

This isn't always the case though. Per canon you do get to spend eternity with your soul mate. This soul mate bond can be forged from romantic, familal or friendship link. That is why the brothers shared a heaven in this episode and why Jimmy and Amelia were reunited after her death in Angel Heart.

[bettername2come]

I call bullshit on Roy and Walt not waking Sam and Dean up when they came in. "Go ahead, Roy, do it. But I'm gonna warn you - when I come back, I'm gon be pissed." That line right there is the most badass Dean line ever. That shot of the night sky is just magical. I'm such a sucker for Colin Ford getting scenes with the real boys. That shot of Sam all happy in the fireworks and the transition back to their deaths - that was really well done. "Condolences." I choked on my drink. Cas is really at his best in season 5.

Poor Sam. I hate that he feels undeserving of heaven, but on the other hand - yeah, jumpstarting the apocalypse was bad. I love Dean having faith in Sam and his intentions there. "You think maybe, just maybe, we should find out what the hell God is saying?" You've been hanging out with Dean too long, Cas. Yeah, it would've been nice if the "prayer - last hope of a desperate man" line came after the episode that ended with Dean praying. Poor Sam can't talk to his mom. Nice acting. Sweet little four-year-old Dean. Cool transition between Flagstaff and Sam leaving for college. "I never got the crusts cut off of my PB and J's. I don't look at family the way that you do." "Yeah, but I'm your family."

Sure follow the strange man in the luchador mask. Ash! Is that even the real roadhouse? "I been saved, man. I was my congregation's number one snake handler!" Sam and Dean as platonic soulmates. I'm glad Ash is happy. "You boys die more than anyone I have ever met." I did not appreciate this sweet, little redneck genius enough during season two. I don't like Pamela encouraging the apocalypse. The kiss is good.

Aw, Dean. Even from a fake it hurt to hear those words. Vivid imagery from fake Mary. Zechariah kissing Mary and calling her a MILF is disturbing. Joshua is awesome. Gentle and wise and so different from the other angels. Interesting that it seems Sam was right about not deserving heaven based on Joshua's "after everything you've done" and saying He's been intervening more than usual. I feel for the poor maid who found that hotel room. He threw away the Samulet!

This is the first one where they make John look like an absolute asshole, with leaving Mary when Sam was a baby and possibly abusing Dean. I hate it, and I don't think it's the John we've learned about the past four seasons or heck, even three episodes ago. John's not the only one on this show guilty of revisionist history. 

I hate Supernatural's version of heaven. It's isolated, it's disconnected, it's not real. It's why I can't jump on board with the idea of the characters going out in a blaze of glory for the series finale. I agree with Dean calling it "The Matrix."

Edited July 7, 2017 by bettername2come

[Pondlass1]

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I hate Supernatural's version of heaven.

I prefer the version of heaven in this episode - angels in business suits and sterile white offices don't do it for me. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I'm glad Ash is happy. "You boys die more than anyone I have ever met." I did not appreciate this sweet, little redneck genius enough during season two.

I know, right? In S2, I was fairly indifferent to him, but after watching this episode the first time I really wanted Ash back. It's weird how that happens sometimes, isn't it?

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

This is the first one where they make John look like an absolute asshole, with leaving Mary when Sam was a baby and possibly abusing Dean. I hate it, and I don't think it's the John we've learned about the past four seasons or heck, even three episodes ago. John's not the only one on this show guilty of revisionist history. 

I don't know, I don't think John is any worse than he was before. I still see John as someone who did the best he could but his best just wasn't very good given he was so broken by Mary's death and learning about what was out there in the dark. But, I'm also firmly in the camp that John never physically abused either Sam or Dean, but I'm sure he laid an epic guilt trip on Dean's table over Sam running away. Which, IMO, would be far worse to Dean than if he had just beat the crap out of him.

I also look at the memory of John "leaving" them as a memory of a 4-year-old in which we're only seeing the one side of. Dean said he moved out for a couple days, that doesn't sound to me like he left them as much as there was something going on that a 4-year-old-Dean didn't fully understand. But it's interesting considering this could not have been too long before Mary died. So, yeah, I think both John and Dean have both revised Mary's history a bit.

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I hate Supernatural's version of heaven. It's isolated, it's disconnected, it's not real. It's why I can't jump on board with the idea of the characters going out in a blaze of glory for the series finale. I agree with Dean calling it "The Matrix."

Well, I wouldn't want to be in their version of Heaven--although, I'd take it over the basement--but I actually love the idea of it for the show. I kinda like how the show has been consistent with how Heaven and Hell are both wrong--that neither side is the "good" side. And, I think it's interesting how, even though it's horrible, Hell is honest while Heaven is a lie. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Taking my response to the all seasons thread

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I liked how Dean immediately figured out who the gunmen were.  I agree that the guys should have woken up when Walt and Roy came in the room - especially when they were retrieving the gun from under Dean's pillow, since they didn't seem that smooth.  But the camera did make a point of panning across all the empty cans and bottles - and they both obviously slept in their boots, which says 'passed out' to me.  I really want to know how they found out about Sam 'jump starting' the Apocalypse.  And was this the beginning of Dean's part in 'jump starting' the Apocalypse being ignored?  

I still jumped when Sam got shot, even though I knew it was coming.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life knowing that Dean Winchester was hunting me down.

Potential UO (and blasphemy) ahead: I prefer Guns N Roses' version of Knockin' on Heaven's Door.  But for this scene on the show, that version was perfect.

Anyone else start singing "Life is a highway" when Dean sped off down the road?  No?  Just me, huh.  Figures.  I do love seeing awkward Sam.  I wonder what he was thinking when he thought he was dreaming - like wondering why he was dreaming about the Thanksgiving dinner he had at a girl's house when he was 11 but yet he wasn't 11 in his 'dream'.  I mean, that's kind of weird.  If it were really a dream, that is.  It was super strange how the family scene kept going even without Sam interacting.  You'd think it'd at least freeze or something.  I liked the "don't go into the light" line.  Slot cars!  Awesome!  And then Dean is wearing tennis shoes.  Forget the 'I wuv hug' shirt: has Dean ever worn tennis shoes?

I remember the first time I watched this, completely understanding Sam's POV on the heaven memories.  I don't like how Dean is so judgmental about them.  And, pretty much as someone pointed out, they never got to any later (more recent) memories, which I'm sure if they would have, would have included Dean in that 'brothers against the world' thing he wanted.  Although, Dean's probably lucky there weren't any later memories - as the show probably would have made one of Dean's the night Jessica died since it's the night he and Sam really teamed up.  Imagine how that would have made Sam feel to see that.  And if the point of these memories was to drive apart Sam and Dean, whether orchestrated by Zach as some speculate or just for angst on the show, that would have really done it.   I'm also going to throw in with those who don't believe John ever physically abused Dean.   Sam was a teenager when he ran away - around 14 maybe?  Dean at 4 years older would have been 18.  I don't think even an 18-year old Dean who idolized John would have tolerated a physical beating and still idolized the man like he obviously did at the beginning of the series.  I just don't buy it.  

Zach had a point about them running on foot away from angels in heaven.  Ah, it was so good to see Ash!  I love how he figured out Heaven and figured out to break the rules, of course and became fluent in Enochian.  I'm going to believe that he went and found Ellen and Jo after Sam and Dean left.  That Pamela/Dean conversation was weird from both sides.  It didn't sound like either one of them to me.  I just really don't buy her encouraging Dean to say yes to Michael.  I also missed the Sam ass-smack/grab/appreciation from Pamela.  Was the 'watch your ass' line supposed to cover that?  She didn't call him Grumpy, either.  You know, I think in light of all the above, I don't think that was the real Pamela.  I mean, Ash said it would take the angels a minute to find them.  Then he went and got her.  I'll bet Zach knew where they went, but because of the sigil on the door, he couldn't follow them in.  As much as Ash was keeping tabs on Heaven, I think maybe Heaven knew what he was doing, but as long as he wasn't messing anything up, they let him do it.  So the angels knew Ash frequently visited Pamela and that she had history with the boys and sent in a fake, like the fake Mary later.   In fact, Zach probably had to up his game with the fake Mary after the fake Pamela failed to convince Dean to say yes to Michael.

I love Joshua showing up and putting the kibosh on Zach's plans.  I did like Joshua in this episode.  He seemed like a good angel.  I think God actually had a good message in the "back off".  I mean, as long as neither one said yes, there wouldn't be a fight, right?  I don't think the 'after everything you've done, too' to Sam was about 'jump starting the apocalypse' by killing Lilith, per se.  I think that was about all the demon blood drinking/sex.  That was nasty stuff.  

Dang, that was disturbing seeing the holes in the back of Dean's shirt.    Such a sad ending too, with both Cas and Dean losing faith.  

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 I really want to know how they found out about Sam 'jump starting' the Apocalypse.

I'm thinking it was from other hunters. Remember in "Free To Be You and Me" when the hunters came into the bar and hounded Sam until he told them what happened?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm thinking it was from other hunters. Remember in "Free To Be You and Me" when the hunters came into the bar and hounded Sam until he told them what happened?

Oh, I'd forgotten about that!  Thanks for reminding me!  Plus, other demons could have also placed the blame (credit?) on Sam like the ones in Free To Be You and Me, which is how those hunters found out in the first place, iir.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I'd forgotten about that!  Thanks for reminding me!  Plus, other demons could have also placed the blame (credit?) on Sam like the ones in Free To Be You and Me, which is how those hunters found out in the first place, iir.

You're very welcome! And I'm guessing that they didn't know about Dean's part in starting the Apocalypse because the demons were in favor of Lucifer's vessel so Sam was the only Winchester that was being talked about in connection to it at that point.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

You're very welcome! And I'm guessing that they didn't know about Dean's part in starting the Apocalypse because the demons were in favor of Lucifer's vessel so Sam was the only Winchester that was being talked about in connection to it at that point.

Yup!  Good point!  At least Sam was the only Winchester being talked about in connection to it by the demons - which is what the other hunters would have had contact as they were hunting demons down,  not angels.  I wonder if the demons even knew that Dean was supposed to be Michael's vessel?  If they had, wouldn't they have tried to kill him to ensure their side would win?  Or did they want the big showdown like Michael did?

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yup!  Good point!  At least Sam was the only Winchester being talked about in connection to it by the demons - which is what the other hunters would have had contact as they were hunting demons down,  not angels.  I wonder if the demons even knew that Dean was supposed to be Michael's vessel?  If they had, wouldn't they have tried to kill him to ensure their side would win?  Or did they want the big showdown like Michael did?

Yes, the demons definitely knew about Dean. Remember in "I Believe The Children Are Our Future" when the demon possessed Jesse's mom and came after him? She pinned both Sam and Dean and said that they had orders not to hurt Sam but hurting Dean was encouraged. It was only when Jesse ordered the demon out of his mother that it stopped hurting Dean. I'm guessing that between Sam, Dean, Cas & the angels that were trying to get Dean to say yes to Michael were enough of a deterrent to keep other demons from trying to do the same. Season 5 was one that I fully enjoyed so I remember alot :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, the demons definitely knew about Dean. Remember in "I Believe The Children Are Our Future" when the demon possessed Jesse's mom and came after him? She pinned both Sam and Dean and said that they had orders not to hurt Sam but hurting Dean was encouraged. It was only when Jesse ordered the demon out of his mother that it stopped hurting Dean. I'm guessing that between Sam, Dean, Cas & the angels that were trying to get Dean to say yes to Michael were enough of a deterrent to keep other demons from trying to do the same. Season 5 was one that I fully enjoyed so I remember alot :)

Thanks again for reminding me!  I also remembered Sam making hex bags which he learned from Ruby to hide them from demons, so I guess that's another reason the demons couldn't get to Dean like they wanted.

I didn't really like much of S5 first time through (and I'm dreading the last few eps already in my rewatch), so I obviously have blocked out a lot!  :)

[Locutus]

Heaven in this time frame seems vastly different than the heaven in future seasons, such as "Inside Man". Guess they remodeled.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Locutus

[Iju]

jensen's accent, on cue, was loosened when he snarled at roy and walt. loved it, it really added to his emotion :P

dean's hugz shirt wasn't bad at all, he fit it rather nicely. man mary is so beautiful. she looks just like an angelic, perfect, heavenly romatasised mother is supposed to look. she fit that dress so wonderfully.  i will never not love how dean looks at his mother. she is the true love of his life. all barriers fall with her. and the comparison of sam's sort of outsider, almost lonely presence around mary, since he never knew her. 
"I just never realized how long you’ve been cleaning up Dad’s messes."
forget that, dean had to come between both parents and morally support them basically since he was born. this proves how attentive and just how sensitive he is to people's feelings around him.

dean's reaction on sam's leaving him and john wasn't that it wasn't relevant anymore or that he knew better, but it's just that he never got over it because as he says he does he just pushes down his feelings. so it wasn't that he was hurt then, it was just getting that gunk out from the past. at least that's how i see it.

so happy to see ash. i liked him a lot in S2^^<3 pam's turn from sam to dean was strange indeed. i don't know who went along with that.

zach is all talk and no gab. twice he has stated how much he can torture a person and hasn't done much to prove it. yawn

if i was sam i would just secretly keep the necklace. i would give it to cass for safekeeping or something. i'm sorry that dean feels hopeless atm but dang if that wasn't cold.

[catrox14]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:11 AM, Iju said:

so happy to see ash. i liked him a lot in S2^^<3 pam's turn from sam to dean was strange indeed. i don't know who went along with that.

Turn from Sam to Dean? Do you mean when Pamela kissed Dean?  Dean hit on Pamela first and then Pamela said they were both invited. She always seemed attracted to Dean to me. Also, she knew about Sam's secrets in s4 so I'm not so sure she would really want to be with Sam after all .

 

On 4/7/2018 at 12:11 AM, Iju said:

i'm sorry that dean feels hopeless atm but dang if that wasn't cold.

That's the thing about gifts. No one has any control nor say over what the giftee does with it, so I don't see how it was cold to Sam.

YMMV of course.

[Iju]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Turn from Sam to Dean? Do you mean when Pamela kissed Dean?  Dean hit on Pamela first and then Pamela said they were both invited. She always seemed attracted to Dean to me. Also, she knew about Sam's secrets in s4 so I'm not so sure she would really want to be with Sam after all .

eh, regardless of sam's huge mess up it was still strange. it just felt out of place.

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the thing about gifts. No one has any control nor say over what the giftee does with it, so I don't see how it was cold to Sam.

i never said anything about sam and his feelings towards the necklaces lol, i was actually talking about how cold it was to their father but mostly myself. i felt my gut drop right along with it in the trashcan.

[gonzosgirrl]

Edited. See below.

Edited April 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Iju said:

eh, regardless of sam's huge mess up it was still strange. it just felt out of place.

i never said anything about sam and his feelings towards the necklaces lol, i was actually talking about how cold it was to their father but mostly myself. i felt my gut drop right along with it in the trashcan.

You said it was cold, which implied cold towards someone else and since Sam is the only other person attached to the necklace...there you go. 

John? Seriously? John couldn't even be bothered to show up for Christmas and Sam gave it Dean because John wasn't around to receive it. Why would John's feelings matter in this? Why would anyone's feelings matter other than Dean's who had possession of the necklace. 

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What was strange about it?

 

That quote wasn't from me :)

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You said it was cold, which implied cold towards someone else and since Sam is the only other person attached to the necklace...there you go. 

John? Seriously? John couldn't even be bothered to show up for Christmas and Sam gave it Dean because John wasn't around to receive it. Why would John's feelings matter in this? Why would anyone's feelings matter other than Dean's who had possession of the necklace. 

That quote wasn't from me :)

Yeah, this site hates my tablet and vice versa. Sorry! I'm fixing it.

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎07 at 3:11 AM, Iju said:

pam's turn from sam to dean was strange indeed. i don't know who went along with that.

What was strange about it?

Edited April 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Iju]

holy cow, 13 notifications lmao, this blew up the hour i was gone lol

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

You said it was cold, which implied cold towards someone else and since Sam is the only other person attached to the necklace...there you go. 

well i clarified myself so i hope there's no more misunderstanding.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

John? Seriously? John couldn't even be bothered to show up for Christmas and Sam gave it Dean because John wasn't around to receive it. Why would John's feelings matter in this? Why would anyone's feelings matter other than Dean's who had possession of the necklace. 

was that in the christmas episode? because we skipped that one as well. i always assumed his father gave it to him/he took it when his father died. in that case i understand why you thought i was talking about sam so sorry about that, excuse my ignorance there.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What was strange about it?

well last time she was interested in sam and then she now wants to know what it would be like kissing dean. it was just a sudden turn for me that's all.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Iju

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, Iju said:

was that in the christmas episode? because we skipped that one as well. i always assumed his father gave it to him/he took it when his father died. in that case i understand why you thought i was talking about sam so sorry about that, excuse my ignorance there.

Ah, understandable then. No, it was a gift that was never intended for Dean - Sam got disillusioned by John not showing up for Christmas, so he gave it to Dean instead. If not for that, Dean wouldn't have gotten any Christmas gift at all. Just to clarify further, they were both children, and John left them alone in a motel over the holiday. So you can see why he would throw away this symbol of Sam's 'affection' after learning the place he thought he had in Sam's memories was fake, too.

Quote

well last time she was interested in sam and then she now wants to know what it would be like kissing dean. it was just a sudden turn for me that's all.

I don't even recall her being interested in Sam (though she did admire his ass), but okay. She seemed like a pretty adventurous woman, so I could see her going for both. Maybe even at the same time. :)

Edited April 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why would anyone's feelings matter other than Dean's who had possession of the necklace. 

In my opinion: Because Dean wanted to make a point and an impact. If Dean had thrown away the necklace after Sam had left or had waited until he was alone to do it or even just threw it away quickly without showing exactly what it was... then I agree only Dean's feelings would have mattered. But Dean purposely stopped and made a show of letting the necklace drop from his hand so Sam could see exactly what it was, paused to make sure Sam would see what it was, and then let it drop into the trash can in front of Sam. You may disagree, but for me, Dean's purpose in doing it that way was to make a point to Sam - to give him a message. I think therefore that Sam's emotional reaction does matter, because Dean wanted Sam's reaction to matter. His purpose was to convey to Sam how betrayed he felt, and maybe even to transfer some of that pain onto Sam. So if Sam felt hurt by it or not - and I think he did - was part of the point and in my opinion would matter. But I understand that miles are going to vary.

[Iju]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ah, understandable then. No, it was a gift that was never intended for Dean - Sam got disillusioned by John not showing up for Christmas, so he gave it to Dean instead. If not for that, Dean wouldn't have gotten any Christmas gift at all. Just to clarify further, they were both children, and John left them alone in a motel over the holiday. So you can see why he would throw away this symbol of Sam's 'affection' after learning the place he thought he had in Sam's memories was fake, too.

oh okay, that makes a lot more sense now. now i see why he felt so strongly towards it in the first place. 

 

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't even recall her being interested in Sam, but okay. She seemed like a pretty adventurous woman, so I could see her going for both. Maybe even at the same time. :)

she was interested in both boys for sure, but i thought her physical advances on sam (cheek grabbing) meant she was leaning towards him more. thought it is completely plausible she was turned off from his massive stupid mistakes.

[AwesomO4000]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So you can see why he would throw away this symbol of Sam's 'affection' after learning the place he thought he had in Sam's memories was fake, too.

In Dean's interpretation. I personally wouldn't say that just because Sam didn't see family the same way Dean did that that means his feelings for Dean are somehow now "fake" or that Sam sees his childhood with Dean as unimportant. I think that the fireworks memory showed that Sam very much appreciated Dean and that such occasions were happy for Sam at the time. I don't think that young Sam there was somehow faking how he felt about Dean. I guess it could be interpreted that maybe Dean remembered that incident differently than it actually happened, but for me, I don't think that was actually the case or that that was the intent of the writing.

To me, just because Sam's memories shown were those where he got some independence from his teen years with John where Sam often felt restricted, unappreciated, and like he didn't belong that that somehow means that he didn't care about Dean or even cherish some of his memories with Dean. As Sam said, he just didn't see things the same way as Dean did, and just because Dean often defines himself through his family doesn't mean that Sam has to or that either way is better or worse, right or wrong. They are just different.

45 minutes ago, Iju said:

was that in the christmas episode? because we skipped that one as well.

I adore that episode. I think it's a good brother episode, especially the ending which contains one of my favorite, heartstring tugging Sam expressions of the show.

[DeeDee79]

27 minutes ago, Iju said:

she was interested in both boys for sure, but i thought her physical advances on sam (cheek grabbing) meant she was leaning towards him more. thought it is completely plausible she was turned off from his massive stupid mistakes.

When they showed up at her house she very blatantly checked Dean out, flirted back when he made a comment about her tattoo and grabbed his thigh under the séance table. With Sam she just invited him to have a threesome. I saw it as a woman that liked what she saw in Dean and thinking that she could have more fun if she had two hot brothers instead of one.

50 minutes ago, Iju said:

was that in the christmas episode? because we skipped that one as well. i always assumed his father gave it to him/he took it when his father died. in that case i understand why you thought i was talking about sam so sorry about that, excuse my ignorance there.

Watch it! That was such an entertaining ep!!

Edited April 9, 2018 by DeeDee79