Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[AngelaHunter]

Thats bullshit, plenty of people cared about Beth for who she is.

 

No need to call my opinions "bullshit" even if you don't agree. Thank you.

[Emily Thrace]

Jennifer Lawrence could have acted circles around EK with what EK was given because she's a good actress and EK isn't. So what if EK was flying around like Tinkerbell, I'm sure the other actors also have special skills that aren't being used because those skills aren't relevant to the characters they're playing. Besides it looked like EK got to use some of those so-called action skills in Slabtown and she was using the machine gun alongside Maggie during the prison riot.

Except for Michonne, Carol, Maggie, Tara, Sasha, Rosita, and other female characters on the show who are more than just victims or aren't victims at all. Plenty of the men on the show have been victimized too, no less than the women. The real sexism I see are from those who project Beth onto the rest of the women and don't see them as separate individuals who have their own stories and personalities - as if since Beth was a redshirt and died an ignoble death then that must be true of all of the rest of the women. As for being disposable, EVERYONE is disposable, even Rick might not survive the series. The only one who seems to have real plot armor is Carl as it appears the series might end up being his story.

Except Miconne is a victim of her boyfreinds negligence, Tara was a victim of the governor, Sasha a victim of bald cop, and Carol is a professional victim. In a vacumn the womens stories don't look that bad but compare them to the mens and it gets ugly. Glenn and Darryl's stories are about them finding themselves in the new world but Carol and Maggies are about how this world is wearing them down. Compare how Maggies sexual assault was handled compared to Carls. Tyrese may be a baby carrier but he shown as weak and foolish. The governor was just crazy but Mary was a victim of her attackers. The only woman who hasn't been made a victim is Rosita but I'm sure its just a matter of time.

I just love how people who have nothing to do with Beth fans know what they think and why they do what they do. Beths fans aren't just faceless mass to me they're poeples whose names and stories I know. If you don't believe me check out yhe Bethyl thread over on spoilthedead every one there could give you a list of why they like Beth.

All this crap about EK's acting feels more like victim blaming to me. No matter what shit TPTB pull its never their responsibility. Lori's a bitch, Andrea's a slut, EK is a drama queen somehow its always the womans fault .

Edited January 18, 2015 by Emily Thrace

[weightyghost]

 

Glenn and Darryl's stories are about them finding themselves in the new world but Carol and Maggies are about how this world is wearing them down.

 

Seriously? I wasn't going to get into this anymore, but really? You think Carol is worn down? The woman who has survived on her own, fought through the last few years is worn down compared to the abused, broken wife of Ed? Maggie, who hadn't left the farm when the world ended, who believed walkers were still human, who was hysterical when attacked by her first zombie, is not a bigger, stronger woman who is part of the attack-team, considered a leader, went off on her own after the prison fell? Maggie's assault was poorly handled by Glenn not by Maggie. Maggie was the strong one then. 

 

Yes, they've both had weak moments because they're human. Just like how Daryl devolved after the prison fell. Glenn has barely had a storyline in the last season and a half so I'm not touching his arc. Every single character on this show is a victim. Rick is a victim of Shane, of the Governor, of Lori dying. Daryl is a victim of his brother and his abusive childhood. Carl is a victim of his mother dying, of his lost childhood. 

 

We can talk about this in circles, but personally i'm not just blindly talking about the Beth supporters without ever understanding where they're coming from. because they are infiltrating every article written about the show, every tag on tumblr. It's hard to be ignorant about Beth fans lately. In my experience, none of that happened until her episode with Daryl. I'm sure she had fans before then, but the hysteria around her character didn't happen until then. That is not the writer's fault. We take what we want from the show. 

 

 

All this crap about EK's acting feels more like victim blaming to me. No matter what shit TPTB pull its never their responsibility. Lori's a bitch, Andrea's a slut, EK is a drama queen somehow its always the womans fault .

 

People blamed Glenn over Andrea consistently and still to this day. Lori's character is similar, if not slightly nicer, than her comic counterpart. By picking apart a character, it is inherently blaming the writers. The actors can't control how their character is written, but they do have some control over how they are portrayed. 

 

I've never heard anyone call Beth a drama queen, unless you're mixing up character and actor. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by weightyghost

[kikismom]

Seriously? I wasn't going to get into this anymore, but really? You think Carol is worn down? The woman who has survived on her own, fought through the last few years is worn down compared to the abused, broken wife of Ed? Maggie, who hadn't left the farm when the world ended, who believed walkers were still human, who was hysterical when attacked by her first zombie, is not a bigger, stronger woman who is part of the attack-team, considered a leader, went off on her own after the prison fell? Maggie's assault was poorly handled by Glenn not by Maggie. Maggie was the strong one then. 

 

Yes, they've both had weak moments because they're human. Just like how Daryl devolved after the prison fell. Glenn has barely had a storyline in the last season and a half so I'm not touching his arc. Every single character on this show is a victim. Rick is a victim of Shane, of the Governor, of Lori dying. Daryl is a victim of his brother and his abusive childhood. Carl is a victim of his mother dying, of his lost childhood. 

 

We can talk about this in circles, but personally i'm not just blindly talking about the Beth supporters without ever understanding where they're coming from. because they are infiltrating every article written about the show, every tag on tumblr. It's hard to be ignorant about Beth fans lately. In my experience, none of that happened until her episode with Daryl. I'm sure she had fans before then, but the hysteria around her character didn't happen until then. That is not the writer's fault. We take what we want from the show. 

 

 

People blamed Glenn over Andrea consistently and still to this day. Lori's character is similar, if not slightly nicer, than her comic counterpart. By picking apart a character, it is inherently blaming the writers. The actors can't control how their character is written, but they do have some control over how they are portrayed. 

 

I've never heard anyone call Beth a drama queen, unless you're mixing up character and actor. 

 

You took the words right out of my keyboard!

 

Rick's crybaby hissy at the waterfall camp, and dragging the group down with his interminable flip-out at the prison. Glenn considered himself the victim of Maggie's assault until she read him his beads. Glenn being Peach Boy. T-dog being victim of Merle. (pretty much everyone was a victim of Merle at one time or another :-D).

 

Carol being a professional victim? No, I'd give that award to Dale: when he spoke to Andrea in the RV, when he spoke to Shane in the woods, when he spoke to the group in the living room of Herschel's house----a constant martyr oh fine, I just try to help and you shoot me down, I'm just taking your belongings away for your sake but if you want to hate me so be it, I'm the bad guy for wanting to preserve humanity, might as well give up right now waahwaahwaah.

 

I think all the men had their turn being victims of someone else's negligence, all the men were likewise victims of the Governor, and the Governor himself liked the professional victim role so much it became his favorite go-to routine for rousing the rabble.

 

Let's agree that when it comes to Beth, YMMV; and she's gone now so whatever she was it isn't going to change.

[NoWillToResist]

 

 plenty of people cared about Beth for who she is. They may hang out on Bethyl boards but thats just because they tend to be a safe haven from the verbal shrapnel. The fact is Beths story has been dogged by sexism the whole way through. Why wasn't she clearing the prison with her sister? Or even going on runs in season 4? If she had been a seventeen year-old boy it wouldn't even have been a question. Instead because shes a girl she gets to hold the baby.

 

From what I've seen online from fans of the character of Beth (rather than Beth/Daryl fans), it seems that people liked her BECAUSE she wasn't the big, strong warrior, and was thus more relatable. Beth was a sweet, sheltered girl, raised on a goddamned farm for heaven's sake, by a God-fearing man. She was gentle and innocent, sang to comfort people etc. I think that kind of made her characterization stand out, considering the other women on the show. Seems to me that most of the other characters, stuck in a shitty world with shitty choices, wanted to protect that innocence and sweetness if possible. Throw in that Hershel was (A) traditional and (B) protective of his girls, Beth was not given many options of getting her hands dirty. I don't think it's a coincidence that Beth got stronger and more of a backbone after her dad exited the picture. Free from her father's sphere of protection, Beth had to get stronger.

 

Her time with Daryl after the prison, IMO, showed how much influence her father had over her perspective of the world. Her tenacious belief that things aren't hopeless etc., helped Daryl pull his head of out his ass and got him back on track. Her innocence was a force of strength and positive change there.

 

I can imagine it being a bit of a gut punch to then have this young, sweet girl have her brains blown out the back of her head. It will hit the other characters hard too. Because, IMO, they viewed her as a child to be protected.

 

I'm not sure it's fair to call Beth's characterization sexist. I would argue that her treatment was more about her background, age and experience rather than her gender.

Edited January 18, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[ghoulina]

The fact is Beths story has been dogged by sexism the whole way through. Why wasn't she clearing the prison with her sister? Or even going on runs in season 4? If she had been a seventeen year-old boy it wouldn't even have been a question. Instead because shes a girl she gets to hold the baby.

 

False. Carl also did not get to clear the prison or go on runs. They were both young and inexperienced. Carl did end up proving himself when the fence came down in season 4, Beth never really did. But I don't think that's sexism. That was just her character. Just because she and Maggie are sisters that doesn't mean they're going to have the same personality. Maggie adapted quickly and became very tough and quick on her feet. Beth was still having trouble protecting herself when she and Daryl were alone after the fall. I suppose you could call that sexist writing, but when we have badasses like Carol and Michonne, capable women like Maggie and Rosita, I just really can't say it's sexism. 

 

I maintain that Beth wasn't given more to do because EK couldn't handle more. She could barely handle what she had on her plate as it was.

Except Miconne is a victim of her boyfreinds negligence, Tara was a victim of the governor, Sasha a victim of bald cop, and Carol is a professional victim.

 

You could turn around and say Daryl was a victim of Merle, they were ALL victims of the Governor, and all the men ended up getting taken by the Termites just as well as the women. Then there was the whole storyline where Glenn was practically immobile because of his love of a woman. Shane's downfall was his love for Lori, and Rick was definitely a victim of THAT whole storyline as well. Just really not seeing any overt sexism going on here.

[RedheadZombie]

There could be a valid point here about her acting failing to elevate the material. She was actually better at acting silently than at acting noticeably. I thought a lot of her quiet, stoic schtick during the Grady arc was extremely well done, but I'm not sure even it truly "stands out" compared to some of the silent scenes that have been done by, for example, Rick or Michonne. Emily's acting usually makes me say "She's not a bad actress. People are kind of rough on her." Andrew's makes me say "Rick may be an idiot, but that is one hell of a great actor."

 

I'll add the many effective silent scenes of Carol.  When Carol watched Daryl burn the mom/daughter walkers, it made me cry.  Unlike EK, there was no need to ask - is she angry, grateful, touched, sad, confused, hungry, bored, or just constipated?

 

 

False. Carl also did not get to clear the prison or go on runs. They were both young and inexperienced. Carl did end up proving himself when the fence came down in season 4, Beth never really did. But I don't think that's sexism. That was just her character. Just because she and Maggie are sisters that doesn't mean they're going to have the same personality. Maggie adapted quickly and became very tough and quick on her feet. Beth was still having trouble protecting herself when she and Daryl were alone after the fall. I suppose you could call that sexist writing, but when we have badasses like Carol and Michonne, capable women like Maggie and Rosita, I just really can't say it's sexism. 

 

To add to your points - In many of Carl's moments of stepping up, there was no alternative.  When Carl killed Shane and then put Lori down, there was no one else to do the job.  Same when the walkers brought the fence down, and Rick had to arm Carl and let him work to kill the walkers.  When Carl killed the governor's boy (which I'm still not crazy about), Hershel was still on crutches.  If Rick had been able to, he would have shielded Carl from these experiences.  Tara was completely useless until the prison fell and Glenn needed her - only then did she become capable and actually saved Glenn's and her own life.  As we all know, Carol transformed from completely incompetent to badass - in a slow multi-season arc, but only after years of being too afraid to leave her abusive husband, and when it was too late to save her daughter.

 

As you pointed out, the only time Beth truly had to step up and protect herself (because Daryl left her hanging), she did.  In that way, she was treated no differently than Carl or Carol.  I don't really think Beth would have had a weapon and been at the fence to fight the governor, at that time she was still extremely sheltered, and I don't think Beth would have abandoned Judith to the other little kids.  The show just couldn't resist both of Hershel's daughters watching his death.

 

At this point, the character receiving character assassination (in my eyes) is Tyreese.  I hate what they've done to him.  The only truly useless people at this point are men - Eugene and FPP.  We have seen Eugene protect Tara, so there's hope.

 

 

 Free from her father's sphere of protection, Beth had to get stronger.

 

It was a double whammy - she lost Hershel and Maggie almost simultaneously.  If Beth was with Maggie after the prison fell, I think Maggie would have continued to attempt to shelter her.

[RedheadZombie]

The governor was just crazy but Mary was a victim of her attackers. The only woman who hasn't been made a victim is Rosita but I'm sure its just a matter of time.

 

Mary was a victim of her attackers, but she certainly was a monster herself.  And I definitely got the impression that she fed the anger and manipulated Gareth into becoming a monster.  That makes her as much a victim as Lady MacBeth.  Regardless, the monsters, tyrants, dictators, and serial killers of this world have rarely been women.

 

All this crap about EK's acting feels more like victim blaming to me. No matter what shit TPTB pull its never their responsibility. Lori's a bitch, Andrea's a slut, EK is a drama queen somehow its always the womans fault .

 

Well ...... Lori and Andrea are characters, whereas EK is an actor.  I hated the way that Andrea and Lori were treated (I never hated them), but a lot of that was the misogyny of the fans, IMO, rather than victim blaming.  I never saw Andrea or Lori as victims.  As to Emily, your point is Emily herself is a victim.  I just don't see it.  Granted, she acted like a victim on TTD.  Just about every fired actor has appeared on that show, but Emily was the only one who couldn't keep her shit together.  That appearance, followed by her music and videos, is what continues the perception that she is sixteen rather than almost thirty.  Emily reminds me of Ian Ziering - a mediocre actor with minimal appeal, who lucked into being cast on a show that becomes a huge hit.  They're born on third, but think they've hit a triple.

[AngelaHunter]

I hated the way that Andrea and Lori were treated (I never hated them), but a lot of that was the misogyny of the fans, IMO, rather than victim blaming.

 

Definitely the "fans" who called both Lori and Andrea "whores" because they had the unmitigated gall to have S-E-X outside of the marital bed, but what really is puzzling is that the men with whom they were HAVING this outrageous sex - Shane and Philip -  were never disparaged in any way for that. THEY obviously are not whores for having "illicit" sex. Who knew people were still in the 1950s ol' double standard mindset? I found it to be quite an eye opener, if nothing else.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I hated the way that Andrea and Lori were treated (I never hated them), but a lot of that was the misogyny of the fans, IMO, rather than victim blaming.

 

I always liked Andrea. I liked that she was smart and competent and worked hard to learn how to shoot etc. I was sorry to see her go. I wasn't sorry to see Lori go; not because she had sex with Shane when she thought her husband was dead but because I couldn't stand to watch another minute of her wondering where her fucking son was. IMO, I was never given any justification for why she was so damned cavalier about the whereabouts of her kid while there were zombies all over the damned place...

[Bongo Fury]

The fact is Beths story has been dogged by sexism the whole way through. 

 

 

Except Miconne is a victim of her boyfreinds negligence, Tara was a victim of the governor, Sasha a victim of bald cop, and Carol is a professional victim. In a vacumn the womens stories don't look that bad but compare them to the mens and it gets ugly. 

 

I usually get PO'd at accusations of sexism in relation to something as silly as a TV show, but I had time today to think on the matter and I have to agree that TWD is indeed a sexist show. Men are treated horribly and their portrayal is clearly a campaign of sexism.

 

Look at the actions after the fall of the prison:

Rick was utterly unhinged and shattered, a broken man. Until a woman showed up, Michonne, to give his life purpose again and to give him a reason to live.

Daryl was the same, a broken man. But he was fortunate enough to have Beth with him, who could heal his stricken heart. Only to have him utterly broken again as a victim of Grady stealing away his female guide.

Glenn was reduced to an automaton, a single minded simpleton. Everything in life took a secondary importance to uniting with his female partner.

Tyrese was bumbling his way through caring for the three little female units and it was made obvious that bad things were going to happen SOON with this group. Until Carol showed up and took control  stabilized the situation.

'Dead Herschel' was finally put to rest by Michonne, a woman. Just like a man, the Gov couldn't even kill someone properly, it takes a woman to come in and clean up the mess.

Poor Carl had to suffer through his potential rapist pawing him and drooling over him. While Maggie got luck in a similar situation, she only has to show off her titties, she didn't have to suffer actual physical assault.

 

But in the end a woman came in and saved the other characters from their foolishness in Terminus. Carol was there to save the day. 

 

A new character was added to the group, Gabriel, but everyone refers to him as Fr. PeePants, so you can see how seriously this man is taken. 

 

While the prominent woman introduced was Dawn, the woman leader of Grady who was struggling to control the rapist men and keep her community going. When her authority was challenged by a foolish man, he was vanquished and Dawn commanded her shield maiden Beth to cast the man down into the abyss, and into eternal damnation. The symbolism here is undeniable.

 

The half season ended with Beth, a woman, heroically sacrificing herself for Noah. 

[GreyBunny]

I hated the way that Andrea and Lori were treated (I never hated them), but a lot of that was the misogyny of the fans, IMO, rather than victim blaming.

 

Exactly.  I didn't like Andrea or Lori but not because of who they had sex with.  I thought Shane and Andrea was hilarious and fun, I don't blame Lori for having sex with Shane because she thought Rick was dead, and Philip was a monster but Andrea didn't know it for most of the time she was sleeping with him and even after she realized he wasn't firing on all cylinders, it was to try to kill him but she just couldn't do it because she had complicated feelings about him (hey look! A woman who had 3-dimensional thoughts and feelings!...like the other women on the show.  Oh wait, because Beth died, somehow that makes Andrea nothing but a victim.)

 

Besides, some of the people who are calling Beth's death "sexism" are the same ones who say Daryl hooking up with Carol would be gross because she's "too old", is a grey-haired mug hag, would be like fucking grandma, etc. etc. even though Carol and Daryl are much closer in age than Daryl and Beth. They have an active hostility toward older women but don't have a problem with men the same age as those older women and even fantasize about at least one of those men hooking up with a barely-legal teen (I can't wait for those girls to see how they feel when they reach their 40's and 50's and someone calls them a shriveled up mud hag).  

 

As for EK being a victim, she's not a victim of anything except for her own swelled head.

Edited January 19, 2015 by GreyBunny

[HalcyonDays]

Beth just seems to bring out the drama, doesn't she?? Some love Beth, some hate her, some are neutral, some are ambivalent...Everyone has their own opinions and views on this character and actress and her importance of the show. Try to respect others' opinions and not merely dismiss them, even if you vehemently don't agree. Things are getting a bit testy in here so let's play nice.

[Morrigan2575]

I usually get PO'd at accusations of sexism in relation to something as silly as a TV show, but I had time today to think on the matter and I have to agree that TWD is indeed a sexist show. Men are treated horribly and their portrayal is clearly a campaign of sexism.

 

 

Love your entire post, it's interesting to see it laid out like that.

[Hava]

I always liked Andrea. I liked that she was smart and competent and worked hard to learn how to shoot etc. I was sorry to see her go. I wasn't sorry to see Lori go; not because she had sex with Shane when she thought her husband was dead but because I couldn't stand to watch another minute of her wondering where her fucking son was. IMO, I was never given any justification for why she was so damned cavalier about the whereabouts of her kid while there were zombies all over the damned place...

 

Thank you so much for this! I know this is the Beth thread, but I agree with you so much re: Lori and, especially, Andrea. I never understood the hate for her. Yeah, she was frustrating at times, but which of these characters hasn't been?

 

Count me in as someone who liked Beth. And, yes, her pairing with Daryl had a lot to do with it. But that is also because her episodes with Daryl were also episodes where we finally had some development for her character. So I don't really think you can separate the one from the other. I like that she was a young woman coming to terms with what it meant to live in the ZA. I think she had a lot of story left, and I was sad when she was killed. 

[Ocean Chick]

But when you think about it, everyone who has died had a lot of story left, really.  Beth is no special snowflake in that regard.  That's what makes us sad, which is the whole point of having a tv show set during the za.  No one watches a show where they only kill characters you don't care about.  That would be boring.

[Mu Shu]

I have 'the Facebook', as my sister calls it but I don't post anything on it.  I like it for keeping up with former coworkers and old friends who post pics of their families and grand youg'uns.  I'll never understand why some people get on there and post there whereabouts, though.  Which lets some people know your house is empty or your teens are at home alone. *shaking my head*

 

If EK is smart she will find herself a good acting couch to take advantage of her brief celebrity status.  Although, I do wonder about her emotional maturity and whether she's really equipped to deal with the amount of rejection that comes with an acting career.

 

I think we need to start a write in campaign for EK to appear in Sharknado 3.

Yes, I like that.   Emily could do "Sharknado".    "Ooh, that mud shark was a swiminn'  and a circlin' around me while ah wuz out doctorin' with the farm aminals"   You know, a scene with Emily working with livestock in a medical scenario and the Sharknado passin' over.    Maybe a Shark could bite off Herschel's head and stuff. 

[NoWillToResist]

But when you think about it, everyone who has died had a lot of story left, really.  Beth is no special snowflake in that regard.  That's what makes us sad, which is the whole point of having a tv show set during the za.  No one watches a show where they only kill characters you don't care about.  That would be boring.

 

I think part of the 'Beth's story was cut short' complaints may be partly due to the character's age, so it's more about being upset that their LIFE was cut very short. I mean, she was 18 or so but because she had lived a very sheltered life, she played much younger (IMO, anyway). She came off like a child to me, much as Mika and Lizzie did. There is something very upsetting about seeing such a young life snuffed out, and snuffed out so brutally. Personally, I felt that Mika's murder was a much bigger gut punch than Beth's because Mika's death was flat-out murder, and by her own sister no less. That's fucking tragic to me; far more so than Beth taking a bullet to the head because she stabbed an armed woman. Mika was stabbed in the gut, IIRC, so she wouldn't have died immediately (thus, pain) and would have known that her sister was killing her. That's goddamn horrifying to me.

 

Any character lost on this show is certainly taken 'before their time' because no one has died from age-related causes :), but I think it's more glaring when the victim is so young and, ZA or no, had a hell of a lot left to experience...and now won't.

[Kadlin Mormont]

We can talk about this in circles, but personally i'm not just blindly talking about the Beth supporters without ever understanding where they're coming from. because they are infiltrating every article written about the show, every tag on tumblr. It's hard to be ignorant about Beth fans lately. In my experience, none of that happened until her episode with Daryl. I'm sure she had fans before then, but the hysteria around her character didn't happen until then. That is not the writer's fault.

 

This. 

 

I've seen the Bethyl and related threads at spoilthedead and they're fucking insane. They're the same nutters who called the people who brought us Beth's death spoiler lairs and haters and demanded that their spoiler board should be shut down, who said Beth was killed off because Scott Gimple must have sexually harassed EK and she rejected him and so he fired her as retaliation.  Those wackjobs aren't a ringing endorsement of the Beth fandom.  Oh, and SPOONS.  As for staying in their little bubble because of fear of what will happen when they venture out, maybe they should stop acting like fools, then no one would make fun of them.

[GreyBunny]

From the Nuclear Facepalm files:

 

There's a group of Bethylers who are demanding that TPTB make it clear that Beth is dead and say they are owed a statement from TPTB as to why they killed off Beth.

 

And they wonder why people think they're nuts.

Edited January 20, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Kadlin Mormont]

^ Oh, FFS!  They want confirmation Beth is dead?  So having half her brain get launched through her skull wasn't proof enough, or that no one at the HOSPITAL including the DOCTOR moved to try to help Beth after she fell to the floor because it was screamingly obvious she was dead? 

If they want a statement about Beth then I get one about Jim and Axel.  They died first so I get mine first.  (Barf.  Those nutters have a raging case of SSS - Special Snowflake Syndrome.)

Edited January 20, 2015 by Kadlin Mormont

[BrokenRemote]

I think part of the 'Beth's story was cut short' complaints may be partly due to the character's age, so it's more about being upset that their LIFE was cut very short. I mean, she was 18 or so but because she had lived a very sheltered life, she played much younger (IMO, anyway). She came off like a child to me, much as Mika and Lizzie did. There is something very upsetting about seeing such a young life snuffed out, and snuffed out so brutally. Personally, I felt that Mika's murder was a much bigger gut punch than Beth's because Mika's death was flat-out murder, and by her own sister no less. That's fucking tragic to me; far more so than Beth taking a bullet to the head because she stabbed an armed woman. Mika was stabbed in the gut, IIRC, so she wouldn't have died immediately (thus, pain) and would have known that her sister was killing her. That's goddamn horrifying to me.

Any character lost on this show is certainly taken 'before their time' because no one has died from age-related causes :), but I think it's more glaring when the victim is so young and, ZA or no, had a hell of a lot left to experience...and now won't.

And yet there are no huge groups of people blowing up half the internet demanding Mika be brought back, no change.org petitions, no thousands of people mailing something to the show runners (What would they send rather than spoons? Rats on boards? Pecan shells?).

That's why it's really hard for a lot of us to believe that all the outrage is because "her story wasn't finished" rather than "she was an avatar for me and I have a thing for Daryl". (Not saying that's anyone here.)

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with identifying with a character. Lots of people see a particular character as the way into a show or a movie or a book because the character is relatable. It can be someone who is a lot like they are, a lot like they used to be, or like they'd like to be. But one, it would be nice if people were honest about it rather than all this stuff about having more story to tell. And two, most people seem to be able to get over the death of their avatar without over-the-top drama bleeding into the real world because of it. (Again, not talking about anyone on these boards, but the large numbers in so many other places online.)

The death of a character that a person deeply empathizes with is moving. It can make a story really hit home on a deep level, which ought to be a good thing.

Every character who has died on this show had more story to tell. The writers would be dumb to wait until a character's story lines were all 100% played out to kill them. Nobody would care if they died.

I don't doubt that there were some people who were Beth fans before "Still". I personally know one. But the vast majority that have been vocal about their outrage really do seem to be motivated by Daryl.

[Hava]

I'm confused why people are mad that some viewers liked Beth, even if it was because of her relationship with Daryl...

 

As to the notion that every character has more story left at their death, I think it depends. Some have more story to tell than others, and I think Beth is one whose story was just beginning. YMMV. 

[BrokenRemote]

I'm confused why people are mad that some viewers liked Beth, even if it was because of her relationship with Daryl...

As to the notion that every character has more story left at their death, I think it depends. Some have more story to tell than others, and I think Beth is one whose story was just beginning. YMMV.

I don't think anyone is mad that fans might like Beth because of Daryl. I know I'm not; I think it's pretty normal. My personal issue is the drama and the fact that a lot of people seem to be unwilling to admit that's why they liked her, as though there's something more "high-minded" in saying it's about sexism or unfair treatment of the actress or an intentional slap in the face to the fans or a storyline ended in some way differently than anyone else who didn't die of old age.

(Not saying there aren't those that have those opinions. I know there are some that legitimately carry those opinions, and while I disagree I have no problem with them. And again I want to be clear I'm not talking about anyone here.)

As for Beth's story just starting, she had four years' worth of story. I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing, though. I do have a problem with the idea that the show owes the fans more from Beth, or that her death was somehow more egregious than anyone else's.

Edited to clarify something poorly written.

Edited January 20, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[TallulahBelle]

From the Nuclear Facepalm files:

 

There's a group of Bethylers who are demanding that TPTB make it clear that Beth is dead and say they are owed a statement from TPTB as to why they killed off Beth.

 

And they wonder why people think they're nuts.

Further Tumblr 'meta' theories currently doing the rounds include that Beth got bitten by a walker before the Grady cops ran her down and took her back to the hospital and that she is immune to bites.  Also that either she a) isn't buried but is left in a car when the group is surrounded by walkers or that b) she IS buried and gets herself out/is rescued by Morgan.  Further, there are magazines in the final ep that could be references to comic issue (I think) 44  where Andrea

was shot and they all thought her dead

, which further means Beth = Andrea (because she has the same scars as Andrea).  

 

I could go on - TWD tag and specifically the Bethyl and Beth tag are bonkers on Tumblr at the moment BUT I'd add it's all mostly the same people saying the same thing.  It's not thousands of people or even, I'd say hundreds.  Team Delusional (their name) is very consistent, vocal and passionate.  And when they're not attacking Carol fans or MMB or Gimple, they're fine.  I personally think the theories are all bananas but as long as they're not hurting anyone, whatever - it's just that SOME of them have floated some pretty horrible 'ideas' about how/why EK and Beth were let go from the show which makes it hard for me to ignore them and/or put any stock in any of the theories (I hate that people use fired to describe what happened, she wasn't 'fired' in the traditional sense of the word.  Your contract ends or is not renewed etc.  If you misbehaved and you were let go early, that would be one thing, but I'd put money down that every cast member on TWD has a clause that says your character could die at any time as part of their contract, that's NOT being fired, that's them exercising that clause.)

[NurseGiGi]

I hated when Hershel got killed because I had come to care for the character and thought he was a much needed moral center.  But I'm not storming the castle because they killed him off.  I understand people being saddened because a character they cared for was killed, and to make things worse, killed off in a really stupid, senseless way.  What I don't get is the rabid fanbase and wouldn't really care but I'm afraid of how it will effect other characters.  I'm wondering if this has already happened ie the woobieizing of Daryl.

 

I'm hoping that once the season renews it will diffuse the situation somewhat.  The bottom line is, some people just can not handle social media.

[Ocean Chick]

I could and would ignore Team Delusional if they kept real live people out of the equation.  It's when they send out hate mail to Gimple, Kirkman and Melissa that I have a problem with them (I mean, Melissa?  What has she done to deserve harassment?  Now THAT'S delusional).  Float all the theories you want about Beth surviving.  Just make sure you're not moaning and whining on the main pages when your fantasies don't come true - keep that in your delusional thread.  And then we'll all be okay.  But when your delusions affect real people, not just tv characters, then you've stepped over the line and I feel fine with pointing and laughing at you in public.

[NurseGiGi]

I could and would ignore Team Delusional if they kept real live people out of the equation.  It's when they send out hate mail to Gimple, Kirkman and Melissa that I have a problem with them (I mean, Melissa?  What has she done to deserve harassment?  Now THAT'S delusional).  Float all the theories you want about Beth surviving.  Just make sure you're not moaning and whining on the main pages when your fantasies don't come true - keep that in your delusional thread.  And then we'll all be okay.  But when your delusions affect real people, not just tv characters, then you've stepped over the line and I feel fine with pointing and laughing at you in public.

Well said.  Agree completely.

[NoWillToResist]

And yet there are no huge groups of people blowing up half the internet demanding Mika be brought back, no change.org petitions, no thousands of people mailing something to the show runners (What would they send rather than spoons? Rats on boards? Pecan shells?).

 

Well, I think there are a few big differences between Mika and Beth.

 

- Mika didn't have the same level of attention or story given to her that Beth did

- Mika had no familial claims or links to any other people in our gang (unless you count Carol, which, IMO, doesn't count like Beth/Maggie, Beth/Rick, Beth/Daryl, Beth/Judith)

- Mika was too young to make a relatable connection to many of the audience members

 

 

 

That's why it's really hard for a lot of us to believe that all the outrage is because "her story wasn't finished" rather than "she was an avatar for me and I have a thing for Daryl". (Not saying that's anyone here.)

 

Oh, I'm sure that a goodly chunk of the vocal mourners are pissed at having "Bethyl" cut short, but I do think it's unfair to unilaterally lump Beth fans into that pile, so I'm doing my best - as someone who was really, really MEH on Beth at the best of times - to be objective and try to see what the big deal was about Beth's demise. Because, as you point out, the backlash has been outstanding and surprising.

 

 

There's a group of Bethylers who are demanding that TPTB make it clear that Beth is dead and say they are owed a statement from TPTB as to why they killed off Beth.

 

See, now I kind of want TPTB to tweet out "Beth is dead. Because - spoiler alert! - we write a ZA show in which people die."  ;)

[CletusMusashi]

I do kind of wish there's been crazy-ass campaigns to bring back some other characters, though. It seems so obvious now. We could have sent in mustaches to bring back Axel, dollar store hats to bring back Dale, mysterious boxes to bring back Bob, thongs to bring back Andrea, envelopes full of spaghetti to bring back Herschel...

Edited January 21, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Haleth]

Peanuts to bring back Morgan.  Oh, wait...

[AngelaHunter]

We could have sent in mustaches to bring back Axel

 

Ah, Axel! We hardly knew ye! I really wish he'd stuck around longer. He was funny, cute and interesting, unlike Beth.

[ghoulina]

I want Oscar AND Axel back; they made a great team. Where do I start my petition???

[GreyBunny]

See, now I kind of want TPTB to tweet out "Beth is dead. Because - spoiler alert! - we write a ZA show in which people die."  ;)

 

Here's the thing.  They did, multiple times.  Gimple, EK, and Chandler Riggs all said Beth was dead, Gimple said so multiple times in multiple interviews.  He's been talking about 5b in the context of the group dealing with Beth's death.  The Team Delusional screwballs, at least some of them, think that any mention of her death is just a ruse to fool the audience so everyone will be surprised when Beth appears alive again in episode 10, the season 5 finale, season 6, or whenever their fantasy resurrection scenario turns out to be.  Some are happy that EK's next TV role is only for one episode so she'll be available to film more of TWD.  I am not making any of this up.

 

I want Oscar AND Axel back; they made a great team. Where do I start my petition???

 

And Big Tiny!  I liked him too!  The three prison stooges!

Edited January 21, 2015 by GreyBunny

[CletusMusashi]

Here's a question: what do we have to send in to get Darabont back?

[Emily Thrace]

No need to call my opinions "bullshit" even if you don't agree. Thank you.

2. That cuts both ways. If you truly stand by your opinion there is no need

2. If you want me to respect your post you need to qualify it as such. Your statement was presented as fact.

3. Unless you have spoken to the majority of Beth fans (Which considering EK just hit a million twitter followers thanks largely to walking dead fans that would be quite feat) you can't really say why Beth fans like Beth. So your statement was hyperbole based on limited or non-existant research or as we say on the Rez, bullshit.

Now to get back to my original point. Beth was physically an adult in season 3 so comparing her to Carl really isn't the same. No one was bothered by Jimmy going out to save Rick. The only difference there is that Jimmy is a boy. Even the idea that Beth wouldn't have the skills doesn't hold water since the main point of the time jump was to show how much tougher the group was. The writers admitted they struggled to find something for Beth to do. I like that Beth is a less aggressive character but there really was no need for her to be as passive as she was in season three. There's a middle ground there that the writers don't seem to realize exists. I definitely feel like there was a lot of sexism in who was on the A-team in season three. TPTB included Maggie as a token but Beth and Carol were both excluded for what seems like fairly obvious sexism.

When it comes to the show in general I feel like there is definitely a nasty trend with how the womens stories are treated. It feels like the women react to what happens to them but the men are still in charge of thier own stories. The men experience losses aren't defined by them the way the women are. Daryl lost Merle but its only brought up once while Michonne losing Andrea is brought up multiple times. Alone had Darryl trying to understand his past but Carol was still wallowing in hers. Not to mention how Michonne and Maggie have taken a backseat this season. Hell judging by what I've heard about whats in store for these two TPTB may have pissed of every female fan by the time the seasons out. It may be just a tv show but its the number one show on television . If they are not going to treat their female characters as equals get away with it why the fuck would anyone else bother? That why I think the backlash is important the only way tptb are going to get the message is if their sexism actually costs them something.

[GreyBunny]

Here's a question: what do we have to send in to get Darabont back?

 

He and Jeffrey DeMunn are pretty tight so we could send them...Dale's hat?  Plastic toy Winnebagos?  Maybe a giant nose since Dale was always so nosy.

 

Unless you have spoken to the majority of Beth fans (Which considering EK just hit a million twitter followers thanks largely to walking dead fans that would be quite feat) you can't really say why Beth fans like Beth. So your statement was hyperbole based on limited or non-existant research or as we say on the Rez, bullshit.

 

First off, Emily Kinney has 572,000 Twitter followers.  That's a long way off from 1 million.  Your own "research" isn't any better or less limited than anyone else's.  Yes we can say why many Beth fans like Beth because they've published their thoughts for all to see and their comments and activities have already been discussed upthread by others.  You said to go look at the Beth fans' threads at spoilthedead, we did, and the crazy was off the charts.  There are some nice Beth fans and I like them and sent them virtual flowers when Beth died (incidentally, that was at the same board that the Bethylers wanted to shut down because that board was the one that made the death spoiler known.  Those Bethylers are so bonkers they wanted to ruin a sanctuary that is a home for some of their own), but when a segment acts over the top and crazy in a very loud way (SPOONS), expect it to be talked about and laughed at.

Edited January 21, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Hava]

The hate for Beth and "Beth fans" in this thread is kind of over-the-top. I seriously do not understand what is going on--it's bizarre. 

 

Anyhoo, back to Beth. I know she got a lot of flack for her quest for alcohol, but I kind of understood it. She is young, constantly facing imminent death, and has lost all sense of normalcy, I think she wanted to do something "normal" and something she may never get the chance to do. Was it childish? Absolutely. But I got it, and was rooting her on all the way. It seems unfair to go through life without having experience being drunk!

Edited January 21, 2015 by Hava

[GreyBunny]

True!  But I think they should have stuck with peach schnapps or whatever fluffy drink she considered first.  She drank that moonshine like it was water and she should have been on the floor after the second gulp.  Maybe Hershel's alcoholic genes were so strong she was born with a high tolerance.  ;)

[walnutqueen]

The hate for Beth and "Beth fans" in this thread is kind of over-the-top. I seriously do not understand what is going on--it's bizarre. 

 

Anyhoo, back to Beth. I know she got a lot of flack for her quest for alcohol, but I kind of understood it. She is young, constantly facing imminent death, and has lost all sense of normalcy, I think she wanted to do something "normal" and something she may never get the chance to do. Was it childish? Absolutely. But I got it, and was rooting her on all the way. It seems unfair to go through life without having experience being drunk!

 

I agree, Hava.  This thread has devolved into a rather mean-spirited place where it's apparently acceptable to call certain fans names and ridicule them, all under the guise of innocent fun and the unspoken "oh, but we didn't mean YOU Beth fans, only those other ones".  I find it juvenile and churlish, but can appreciate the irony.

 

As far as having a natural high tolerance; that, too is entirely possible, and I speak from first hand experience.  Also, if the writers or director had wanted to show someone drunk on their ass after their first sip of moonshine, they would have made it so, instead of making it into a long scene of bonding.

[kikismom]

Now to get back to my original point. Beth was physically an adult in season 3 so comparing her to Carl really isn't the same. No one was bothered by Jimmy going out to save Rick.

Jimmy was the one in the RV already. IMHO he was not asked because of who he was, because he had not demonstrated a whole lot of warrior skillz. He just happened to be in the driver's seat.

Nobody was bothered by Maggie and Andrea being in the shooting gallery round-up at the farm.

I definitely feel like there was a lot of sexism in who was on the A-team in season three. TPTB included Maggie as a token but Beth and Carol were both excluded for what seems like fairly obvious sexism.

I don't IMHO consider Maggie included as a token because she was the one who discovered how to take out a walker in riot gear when the men were failing; when the men saw what she did they adopted her method. IMHO I feel if she was a token she would have been the one who couldn't cope or solve it until a man showed her how.

When it comes to the show in general I feel like there is definitely a nasty trend with how the womens stories are treated. It feels like the women react to what happens to them but the men are still in charge of thier own stories. The men experience losses aren't defined by them the way the women are. Daryl lost Merle but its only brought up once while Michonne losing Andrea is brought up multiple times. Alone had Darryl trying to understand his past but Carol was still wallowing in hers.

Michonne was proactive in sneaking away to invade the governor's office etc, IMHO, but then the governor reacted to that. And then CDB reacted to him and Woodbury reacted to them etc etc.

Daryl's loss of Merle was brought up, but Daryl's loss of his mother brought up and Daryl's reaction to the loss of Sophia. Carol in Alone was a dlfferent person than the one who was grieving her daughter. Rick spent lots and lots of time wallowing over the loss of Lori. But that is just my opinion.

Not to mention how Michonne and Maggie have taken a backseat this season. Hell judging by what I've heard about whats in store for these two TPTB may have pissed of every female fan by the time the seasons out.

IMHO Rick took a backseat this season, Carl took a backseat this season, when the Abe/Rosita/Eugene storyline as well as the Beth storyline took several episodes---we didn't see many other characters for a long time.

As far as having a natural high tolerance; that, too is entirely possible, and I speak from first hand experience.  Also, if the writers or director had wanted to show someone drunk on their ass after their first sip of moonshine, they would have made it so, instead of making it into a long scene of bonding.

I love you, but if the director wanted to show the real effects of being shot, stabbed, or beaten Rick, Daryl and Carl would have spent a lot of episodes getting bed rest...but they were up in no time. That may work for the show, but it still makes viewers laugh. Edited January 21, 2015 by Dougal
Formatting.

[bosawks]

I confess watching the fan base getting a little riled up over Beth has kind of made me hope that Daryl bites it.  The insanity that would follow would be all sorts of crazy entertaining.  I'm not above a little internet rubbernecking, I'll admit it.......

 

Anyway, back to Beth, I'm curious if TPTB will find a new character to take the place of "the young innocent" or if they consider that thread played out and will let it rest for a season or two.

 

Oddly, I'm more interested in how Noah reacts to the season ending clusterfuck than either Maggie or, heaven forfend, Daryl. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by bosawks

[halgia]

Guys? Chill. It's time for a moratorium on talking about Beth fans for a while, since you apparently can't do it responsibly. Stick to the show.

[duckseason]

 I think the backlash is important the only way tptb are going to get the message is if their sexism actually costs them something.

 

Scott Gimple has been confirmed to return as showrunner for season 6.  That'll show him.

[CletusMusashi]

There's an extended scene which clears up a lot.

 

Dawn: I thought you were weak. But you're not weak. You're strong.

Beth: Want me to sing now?

Dawn: No, I want you to be with me.

Beth: Huh? I'm right here.

Dawn: I mean, like, in a lesbian sexy way.

Beth: How does that even work?

Dawn: I'm not sure either. I only know what the dorky male writers do. I guess maybe you could... scissor me?

 

much, much later... 

Beth: I understand now. I know what I have to do. 

scissor-poke! BANG! other BANG! ANGST!!!

Beth (floating in Heaven with harp:) Oops. I guess not.

Edited January 22, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[AngelaHunter]

There's an extended scene which clears up a lot.

 

Anyone know the best way to clean tea off a flat screen?

[Mu Shu]

I do kind of wish there's been crazy-ass campaigns to bring back some other characters, though. It seems so obvious now. We could have sent in mustaches to bring back Axel, dollar store hats to bring back Dale, mysterious boxes to bring back Bob, thongs to bring back Andrea, envelopes full of spaghetti to bring back Herschel...

Severed hands to bring back Merle..... 

[NoWillToResist]

Now to get back to my original point. Beth was physically an adult in season 3 so comparing her to Carl really isn't the same. No one was bothered by Jimmy going out to save Rick. The only difference there is that Jimmy is a boy. Even the idea that Beth wouldn't have the skills doesn't hold water since the main point of the time jump was to show how much tougher the group was.

 

Do you feel that her father, for better or worse, was "behind" Beth's lack of action at the prison? Hershel was old school, Christian, and traditional. I have no problem believing that he wanted to keep his precious young Beth as safe and sheltered as possible. Hershel didn't have an issue with Maggie's independence and didn't seem to judge the 'warrior' ladies in the group, but I do feel that he sheltered those in his family over whom he still had sway/control.

 

And in light of that, I think it *is* fair to compare Carl to Beth, even though they weren't the same age. Just as one can argue that Daryl is "stunted" or emotionally immature and thus comes across as younger or more immature than his peers, I think similar comments can be made about Beth. Sure, she was 17 or so compared to Carl's...uh...13? (I'm terrible with character ages, sorry). But Carl is the son of a cop, so I think he'd been a little more exposed to the world than Beth.

 

Once Hershel was killed, Beth had to be strong on her own; she lost all of her family protection when the prison fell. She continued to be strong at Grady. If TPTB hadn't chosen to kill her off, I presume Beth would have followed a similar arc to Carol: blossoming and coming into her own strength now that she's free from her "oppressor's" shadow. Maggie, as big sister, probably would have been protective, but I like to think that Maggie would appreciate Beth gaining some skills and independence. In the ZA, being cossetted doesn't do anyone any favours...

[GreyBunny]

Things happened pretty quickly.  From the time Hershel's head got cut off to Beth getting her brains blown out was only 13 days.

[SometimesBites]

 

All this crap about EK's acting feels more like victim blaming to me.

 

I see Beth as a character on a television show and Emily Kinney as an actor on a television show. I enjoy any and all types of characters--mouthy, brave, wimpy, badass, sneaky, stupid, alcoholic, delusional, etc. ANYTHING works--as long as the actor can make me believe. EK did not make me believe.